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% speed of SP gain in relation to SP held....

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Yelan Zhou Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.30 10:03:00 - [31] Originally by: Loneez Edited by: Loneez on 30/01/2009 09:59:49 Originally by: Yelan Zhou As a semi new player I can only say the op is wrong.I am 5 months here now and that time was a blast.I pvp since my second week in EvE and sure, there are lots of things I cant do, guess what, I have goals. I joined EvE because I am tired of MMOs spoonfeeding me so please leave it as it is. I am not asking Eve to spoon feed, what part of speeding up skill points gain, is exactly spoon feeding? I am not talking about a dramatic speed increase just something to give the impression people can catch up Wow the internet really is an amazing place for understanding, I have no idea where spoonfeeding came into this? But I catch up.At the begining I was flying Executioners as gang tacklers and had shaking knees when an Interceptor engaged me.Now I fly Interceptors also and yes, I have still shortcomings, but I can hold my own against other Interceptors now.
Loneez	Posted - 2009.01.30 10:09:00 - [32] Originally by: Tippia Education is a far better way of changing those perceptions you so fear, rather than adding another layer of misdirection on top of those already flawed views. A very valid point, so how does CCP educate players into understanding this distinction in the game? I mean the key problem with Eve becoming even more successful, because lets be honest it is truly an amazing game, is the accessibility for new players How do we translate that education for new players into an understanding that SP numbers don't really matter....?
Loneez	Posted - 2009.01.30 10:11:00 - [33] Edited by: Loneez on 30/01/2009 10:12:13 Originally by: Tippia Except that that wasn't quite what he said, now was it? He said Quote: "I think new players (and the not new players) will like the changes. As I said, the dev blog about it should be pretty in-depth, and while some of it may shock the 'vets' I personally think it's an awesome change they are making." Which suggests either more SP for new players...or a new change to the system of SP, or a new change in the amount of ISK new players received The fact he states that it will make NOT SO NEW players happy, suggests to me it can't be something to do with the starting SP
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. Ursa Stellar Initiative	Posted - 2009.01.30 10:27:00 - [34] Originally by: Loneez Quote: "I think new players (and the not new players) will like the changes. As I said, the dev blog about it should be pretty in-depth, and while some of it may shock the 'vets' I personally think it's an awesome change they are making." Which suggests either more SP for new players...or a new change to the system of SP, or a new change in the amount of ISK new players received The fact he states that it will make NOT SO NEW players happy, suggests to me it can't be something to do with the starting SP Which does not suggest any changes to SP. and how would 'increased starting SP' be a OMGWTFBBQ moment? Suggest some changes to how new players get their SP, or something similar. Perhaps with the certificates or something.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.01.30 10:28:00 - [35] god damn it. nvm. for some reason the op thinks sp means something. honestly I have an idea. Remove the total sp count from the character screen. in fact if you want proof that sp means nothing in eve go over the character selling forum. a character with more sp but no level 5 skills will sell for less than a character that is totaly OMG pimped out to fly one ship.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.01.30 10:30:00 - [36] Originally by: Loneez Edited by: Loneez on 30/01/2009 09:23:01 But people don't want to be educated when they first start a game Then they're in the one game that will specifically never suit them. EvE is all about continuously learning, adapting and improving.
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance OWN Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.30 10:34:00 - [37] Originally by: Loneez Edited by: Loneez on 30/01/2009 09:23:01 But people don't want to be educated when they first start a game, they just want to jump in and have fun Without that element they lose interest and leave. Then we don't want them. Eve is a niche game, we don't want every idiot on the internet to come.
Loneez	Posted - 2009.01.30 10:38:00 - [38] Suppose they are very valid points and it is a niche game Would just like to see more new players and not so many alts....
Jukhta Mein Domini Umbrus R.U.R.	Posted - 2009.01.30 10:38:00 - [39] If you're frustrated because you are earning alot of ISK but don't have a outlet to spend the ISK, maybe because you dont have the SP to fly battleships or whatever, spend some ISK on good implants and wait the week or so out u need to fly that new ship. If you're frustrated because you can never catch up with older players, you can catch up and easily overtake them in ISK, why don't you consider that? With the ISK go start up your POS or corp and start carving an empire for yourself. When you've done that you'll realise not only have you caught up with older players, SPs don't really matter.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Clinical Experiment	Posted - 2009.01.30 10:41:00 - [40] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 30/01/2009 10:41:19 Originally by: TimMc Then we don't want them. Eve is a niche game, we don't want every idiot on the internet to come. Not really, it's a good space MMO, that's the niche
Loneez	Posted - 2009.01.30 10:55:00 - [41] Originally by: Jukhta Mein If you're frustrated because you are earning alot of ISK but don't have a outlet to spend the ISK, maybe because you dont have the SP to fly battleships or whatever, spend some ISK on good implants and wait the week or so out u need to fly that new ship. If you're frustrated because you can never catch up with older players, you can catch up and easily overtake them in ISK, why don't you consider that? With the ISK go start up your POS or corp and start carving an empire for yourself. When you've done that you'll realise not only have you caught up with older players, SPs don't really matter. Thanks Jukhta, I just find I play lots, end up with lots of ISK and then sit there thinking....hmm 14days for that skill what do I do now...oh more missions, more mining...and then I wait 7days...and I am like what now, I know joining a corp is the way forward...but the lack of coherent timesinks can sometimes get to me
Ocih Amarr	Posted - 2009.01.30 11:20:00 - [42] New players can have 15 mill chars. Buy 2 GTC's, buy Char. They will be an EBay char and will get owned because they didn't learn that it doesn't matter what you can fit. It matters that you know what it does. The problem is there is no way to learn. Fit a T1 cruiser with T1 fittings and go out and PvP. You get spanked. Go out and fit the T2 Variation with T2 fittings, you will still get spanked. In most cases, it's the wrong ship. T1, T2, it was the wrong ship. Count the number of ships you can fly, compare them to the number that you could fly. That's how usefull you are in EvE. Races make ships for wars that never happen. PvP is 4 races at war with everyone. Amarr doesn't have ships designed to kill Caldari ships. Minmitar will fail when facing Gallente fleets. These are things Vets come to learn and no amount of SP will preove it to a new to EvE player.
Dwain Chambers Big S Triangle	Posted - 2009.01.30 11:21:00 - [43] 50 million SP pure PvP character and it's still going to take me over a year to turn the character into, what I consider to be, a decently skilled pilot. These aren't uber hardcore skills either, just training for things I can't fly at the moment that many chars with half my SP can: command ships; logistics; interdictors etc and only for 2 races. However in March CCP are going to release T3 ships and to use these I'll probably have to train a load more new skills and pre-reqs. Why is this relevant to you? Well, like me, you'll probably never have as many SP as you want whether you have 5mill or 50mill... learn to live with it. (Having said that, learning skills are pretty ******ed and I reckon there is a case to be made for new chars starting with at least the basic learning skills to 4 or even 5)
Ralitge boyter Minmatar	Posted - 2009.01.30 11:56:00 - [44] Edited by: Ralitge boyter on 30/01/2009 12:06:10 Edited by: Ralitge boyter on 30/01/2009 12:06:04 Quote: Its just I have tried to introduce many of my friends to this game recently and they are educated PHD students and they cannot believe me when I state that someone with 10million SP can be just as good with someone with 50million SP as long as they train in the same area Clearly your friends are good at studying but not that smart in the end... Anyway lets say CCP gives in to your ridiculous ideas and grandÆs you your battleship in lets say a week, then there are people out there flying a Marauder and a Orca which both take months to train for should they also give you those then to give you the illusion that you can catch up? Do you feel better when you are willingly living in a lie and believing in an impossible possibility? Because that is what you are asking for, even besides the money issue that older player will grumble over, there is the simple but hang on I spend all this time to do this why would they get it so easily handed to them issue. CCP will do what they can to make more and more people play this game and yes they are a commercial company that is in it for the money of course. But why should they make you believe a lie? What is your obsession with the lie that you want CCP to so very much tell you that you can catch up? You initially stated you wanted people to have the ability to catch up, now you are saying they need to have the feeling they can yet we all know that they cannot. I think more people would turn away from a game that made it a selling point to lie to them rather then making it a challenge to play the game admitting that there will always be people that have more skills then you do because they simply have been playing longer. Maybe EVE is not a game for people that like to be lied to, maybe EVE is a game for people that are smart enough to see that you can max a certain set of skills out in a relatively short amount of time making you the best you can be in that field regardless of how bad you are in others. People that cannot understand that like your friends for instance have no business playing EVE because that is one of the simplest and most basic of game mechanics in the game. If you try and explain to them that the traversal velocity of the enemy ship and the tracking rate of your guns as well as his guns have an effect on how well you can fight your opponent and that you will want to keep them at an optimal range but should not forget about the falloff that comes with a certain type of ammo, etc. then you will make their poor little heads explode.
bitters much Nekkid Inc.	Posted - 2009.01.30 12:05:00 - [45] Edited by: bitters much on 30/01/2009 12:06:06 Tbh, there need to be some kind of punishment for people that stick so long with WOW instead of playing EVE, so it is good as it is atm.
Gonada Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.30 12:13:00 - [46] dear OP: each skill level only goes up to 5 therefore the 5 mill SP player that specialized in say, assauly frigs, will have the exact same skills for that hip as a 50 mill SP player. you come off all high and mighty, educated and such, but it you or your friends cannot wrap your sillyputty minds around this basic tenant, then you better stay with games you can handle. may I suggest WoW? Please, jump into traffic
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.01.30 12:18:00 - [47] Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 30/01/2009 12:18:29 Originally by: Loneez Yeah but to the majority of new players higher numbers will always appear better Its basic semantics of MMORPG's if you are lvl 1 you are crap compared to a lvl 40 If you have 10million SP you are crap compared to a 30million SP character, you and I know this isn't true, but to the ignorant new player they can't help but make this assertion EVE really doesnt cater to those kind of people. (serious) EVE politics and piloting is completely void of p3nis envy. Look at titans for example, soo not phallus symbols. (Not so serious) ----------------- Friends Forever
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.01.30 12:20:00 - [48] Originally by: Loneez Originally by: Jukhta Mein If you're frustrated because you are earning alot of ISK but don't have a outlet to spend the ISK, maybe because you dont have the SP to fly battleships or whatever, spend some ISK on good implants and wait the week or so out u need to fly that new ship. If you're frustrated because you can never catch up with older players, you can catch up and easily overtake them in ISK, why don't you consider that? With the ISK go start up your POS or corp and start carving an empire for yourself. When you've done that you'll realise not only have you caught up with older players, SPs don't really matter. Thanks Jukhta, I just find I play lots, end up with lots of ISK and then sit there thinking....hmm 14days for that skill what do I do now...oh more missions, more mining...and then I wait 7days...and I am like what now, I know joining a corp is the way forward...but the lack of coherent timesinks can sometimes get to me Buy faction gear, it don't require level 5 skills and will burn away your extra isk in no ime.
Pan Crastus Anti-Metagaming League	Posted - 2009.01.30 12:21:00 - [49] Originally by: Chribba It's not about the amount of SP, it's how you use it. e.g. mining Veldspar in 1.0 with 100m SP ... How to PVP: 1. buy ISK with GTCs, 2. fit cloak, learn aggro mechanics, 3. buy second account for metagaming
Lord Fitz Project Amargosa	Posted - 2009.01.30 12:28:00 - [50] If people don't want to be educated when they start to play Eve. They need to find another game. I've been playing for 4.5 years and I'm STILL learning / relearning things. Turn back now, run, hide, for learning new things is what makes this game great.
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.01.30 12:31:00 - [51] Originally by: Lord Fitz If people don't want to be educated when they start to play Eve. They need to find another game. I've been playing for 4.5 years and I'm STILL learning / relearning things. Turn back now, run, hide, for learning new things is what makes this game great. ^^ This. The day EVE stops teaching me new stuff, I'm out of here. I don't see it happening any time soon…
Kessiaan Minmatar Army of One	Posted - 2009.01.30 12:40:00 - [52] One thing I recently noticed... Out of all the SPs you can possibly invest in a skill, any skill, it takes exactly 17.7% of the total to train it to level 4. You can train any skill in the entire game to a point where you get 80% of its maximum benefit in less than one fifth the time it takes a 'vet' to train it all the way up. This is the key to becoming effective quickly, and always has been. 'Vets', like me I guess (even though I still feel like a noob most of the time :P) spend literally 80+% of their time training level 5 crap. Now, of course, there's a lot of ****block skills that you need at level 5 as they're prerequs for T2 gear and higher tier skills, but those are usually skills you'll want to prioritize to training to level 5 quickly anyway (in the long run, of course). Also, EvE is not a solo game. If you're in a fair fight you're doing it wrong, and most frigate-based roles aren't very SP dependent, if pvp is your thing.
Ryoji Tanakama Caldari Firestar Drive Yards	Posted - 2009.01.30 12:48:00 - [53] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Originally by: Myfanwy Pisces Someones been watching zero punctuation Good on ya, I only found that last night... Yahtzee didn't invent sarcasm you know He just transformed it into an art.
svetlana Constellation Guard	Posted - 2009.01.30 13:02:00 - [54] Originally by: Loneez Edited by: Loneez on 30/01/2009 09:12:29 ... cater to the newbie complaints and still allow the veterans their higher SP's. I am pretty sure that NOTHING a game company could change would stop 'newbie complaints':) Originally by: Loneez ...Depending on the level of SP you have your speed at learning or should I say amount of SP gained is increased or decreased by a percentage... eve skill system already does this, it is built in. you are just asking for it to go even faster than it already does. Originally by: Loneez ... would eliminate the complaints by new people that they will never catch up with high level characters, ... there is no need to catch up to 'vetrans' in eve. in other MMO's you are completely useless as a low level character. eve is one of the most unique MMO's around where even a low level character could be useful. Originally by: Loneez I really think it would allow for a greater retention of players, ... it would be the opposite. for example: if i was able to create a high level character in WOW quicker, i would have gotten bored faster and quit in 1 month, instead of 6 months. it is LESS important to skill up fast, it is MORE important that the game is fundamentally enjoyable no matter what 'level' you are at. if your casual gamer friends don't enjoy playing eve at a low level then quite honestly, they wouldn't enjoy playing it at a high level either. if you don't enjoy playing eve as a low sp character than you really should leave immediately and play something else. i have several 5 year characters but i still enjoy playing my low sp alts in little fast ships. character level was purposely undefined in eve in lieu of an sp system, and that was a good thing since it has NOTHING to do with how enjoyable this single server universe is. additionally, there is no need at all to be concerned that eve has a 'problem' with player retention, to the point of changing gameplay... eve has grown a small and dedicated player population steadily over 5 years, while other MMO's have come and gone like flavors of the month as they frantically try to cash in on similar casual gamer mechanics. you can jump on the bandwagon and play a vanilla game with 10 million players, or play something rewarding and different with a much smaller player base. that goes for gaming in general, not just eve. i would prefer to play with a smaller population of dedicated gamers who share the same desire for a harsh and unforgiving game universe [which is pretty darn refreshing considering the alternatives], than to soften the game to appeal to an entirely different crowd who cannot appreciate the uniqueness of eve... and would leave anyway the moment their blood elf was needed in raid:) we do not want 'alot of people' to play eve, we want 'alot of people who enjoy this sort of game' to play eve. it is not about being elite. it is about how people in general have differnt tastes, so catering to a majority common denominator would remove any uniqueness that made eve interesting in the first place. -svet
TimMc Gallente Brutal Deliverance OWN Alliance	Posted - 2009.01.30 13:26:00 - [55] Originally by: Tippia Originally by: Lord Fitz If people don't want to be educated when they start to play Eve. They need to find another game. I've been playing for 4.5 years and I'm STILL learning / relearning things. Turn back now, run, hide, for learning new things is what makes this game great. ^^ This. The day EVE stops teaching me new stuff, I'm out of here. I don't see it happening any time soonà Yeah. 2 years playing this game and I finally figured out how to use probes. In a few months I will figure out how to operate POS, and be a POS gunner. There are lots of things to learn for everyone.
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2009.01.30 13:29:00 - [56] Originally by: Lord Fitz If people don't want to be educated when they start to play Eve. They need to find another game. I've been playing for 4.5 years and I'm STILL learning / relearning things. Turn back now, run, hide, for learning new things is what makes this game great. this ... I am in about the same position .. there are so many things I have yet to try ... EVE is not SP dependant, it's logic, inteligence and real life skill dependant. a 50m SP char can be worse than a bunch pf 5-8m SP chars because they know what they are doing and are good at it. skill points do not tell you how to fly/fit/use your ships ...
Linnth Amarr Darkill Corp	Posted - 2009.01.30 14:46:00 - [57] "Catching up in sp's." WoW --> ------------------- Amarr: Getting screwed since 2005!
SkeletonDenial Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.01.30 14:59:00 - [58] Edited by: SkeletonDenial on 30/01/2009 15:01:08 Originally by: Loneez Edited by: Loneez on 30/01/2009 09:23:01 But people don't want to be educated when they first start a game, they just want to jump in and have fun ... I started with only 90,000 skillpoints and I had much fun. (Still am btw) Those who aren't having any fun when they start must be doing it wrong. I do know that a 6 million combat pilot trumps a 12 million sp Jump Frieghter pilot
Digital Solaris	Posted - 2009.01.30 15:41:00 - [59] Let me turn this argument around then; I am rapidly closing in on 50 million SP and there are still numerous elements or tiers of gameplay that just are not available to me even now. Also I recently managed to get two mates of mine to give EVE a try, one of them are a wow player whose interest lies entirely in the end game and the second guy loathes MMOGs on general principle because MMOGs demand so much time! Guess which one turned his trial into a paid account?
Sidrat Flush Caldari Life is Experience Rally Against Evil	Posted - 2009.01.30 15:58:00 - [60] Your suggestion makes me think that you believe Eve Online should turn into some sort of twitch play instant gratification shootemup. It's not like that and nor would I ever want it to be like that. Within my corp there are people interested in many things that Eve has to offer, but like you they thought, past tense - that it was all about skill points. It's not - not much anyway. If you've got the skills to webify and jam a ship - any ship, then that 30M sp pilot isn't doing anything about it, yet you're tech 1 cruiser possibly with meta 4 level mods, possibly vanilla T1 rat loot has just trumped an older character who got unfortunate. Still Eve is harsh, most players pull themselves up and keep going. What new characters may lack (and it's being addressed right now by the STAR programme) is that piece of one to one education. It's not about the skill points, it's about the team work and practice you put in to understand your strengths and weaknesses so that you can pick your own battle ground, be it market pvp or shooty pvp. Changing the skill training mechanic when it's very much intact, working as intended and not even stuttering is a recipe for disaster.

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