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Try this out: shoot at cargo containers when standing still.

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Noin	Posted - 2004.08.01 17:07:00 - [1] I fitted some beams, some hybrids and some projectiles on my Tempest (all medium turrets, otherwise the canisters die to fast) Then I went to a fugitive hideout and shot me some itty bitty tiny rats. Then I stopped my ship and targetted the canisters. I mean, 0 speed, 0 transversal, 0 everything. I went to 40km, used ammo that doesn't give a range boost to either of the 3 guntypes. All I wanna say is: I missed with projectiles. Can anyone explain to me how on earth I can miss a non moving target, with a non moving ship at optimal range? Bah. I
Noin	Posted - 2004.08.01 17:07:00 - [2] I fitted some beams, some hybrids and some projectiles on my Tempest (all medium turrets, otherwise the canisters die to fast) Then I went to a fugitive hideout and shot me some itty bitty tiny rats. Then I stopped my ship and targetted the canisters. I mean, 0 speed, 0 transversal, 0 everything. I went to 40km, used ammo that doesn't give a range boost to either of the 3 guntypes. All I wanna say is: I missed with projectiles. Can anyone explain to me how on earth I can miss a non moving target, with a non moving ship at optimal range? Bah. I
Vel Kyri	Posted - 2004.08.01 18:01:00 - [3] at optimal range with 0 movement, you should have 50% chance of hitting. -----
Vel Kyri	Posted - 2004.08.01 18:01:00 - [4] at optimal range with 0 movement, you should have 50% chance of hitting. -----
DeFood	Posted - 2004.08.01 18:06:00 - [5] er, no. Optimal is the last 100% accuracy distance - according to the graphs TomB so thoughtfully made available in the devblog (and then deleted). Optimal+Falloff is the 50% accuracy all else being equal distance.
DeFood	Posted - 2004.08.01 18:06:00 - [6] er, no. Optimal is the last 100% accuracy distance - according to the graphs TomB so thoughtfully made available in the devblog (and then deleted). Optimal+Falloff is the 50% accuracy all else being equal distance.
Gaiam	Posted - 2004.08.01 18:45:00 - [7] guns are screwed. ccp says they work as intended, but as MANY experienced long time eve players know, and some have gone to great leangths to prove, guns are absolutely screwed. check out Tornsoul's post in general discussion where he obviously went through hours and hours of work to try to point this out. most ships damage output had been decreased about 40% with castor patch 10. mega pulse is the gun of this month, so much for balance.
Gaiam	Posted - 2004.08.01 18:45:00 - [8] guns are screwed. ccp says they work as intended, but as MANY experienced long time eve players know, and some have gone to great leangths to prove, guns are absolutely screwed. check out Tornsoul's post in general discussion where he obviously went through hours and hours of work to try to point this out. most ships damage output had been decreased about 40% with castor patch 10. mega pulse is the gun of this month, so much for balance.
Gaiam	Posted - 2004.08.01 18:47:00 - [9] sorry his post is in patch review.
Gaiam	Posted - 2004.08.01 18:47:00 - [10] sorry his post is in patch review.
Man'corr	Posted - 2004.08.01 19:44:00 - [11] can only agree on the screwing of guns here, they feel different now, and not necessarily better.............. All of above post was formulated wth 100% honesty and 100% sarcasm. Now i only need to get drunk The 3rd turret is the Malediction is missing. Plz make as much noise as possible so that CCP gets us a remedy for that, possibly before X-Mas this year.
Man'corr	Posted - 2004.08.01 19:44:00 - [12] can only agree on the screwing of guns here, they feel different now, and not necessarily better.............. All of above post was formulated wth 100% honesty and 100% sarcasm. Now i only need to get drunk The 3rd turret is the Malediction is missing. Plz make as much noise as possible so that CCP gets us a remedy for that, possibly before X-Mas this year.
JoCool	Posted - 2004.08.01 19:53:00 - [13] Originally by: Noin I fitted some beams, some hybrids and some projectiles on my Tempest (all medium turrets, otherwise the canisters die to fast) Then I went to a fugitive hideout and shot me some itty bitty tiny rats. Then I stopped my ship and targetted the canisters. I mean, 0 speed, 0 transversal, 0 everything. I went to 40km, used ammo that doesn't give a range boost to either of the 3 guntypes. All I wanna say is: I missed with projectiles. Can anyone explain to me how on earth I can miss a non moving target, with a non moving ship at optimal range? Bah. I What was the signature radius of these cans again? What is the signature radius of your guns? Go figure.
JoCool	Posted - 2004.08.01 19:53:00 - [14] Originally by: Noin I fitted some beams, some hybrids and some projectiles on my Tempest (all medium turrets, otherwise the canisters die to fast) Then I went to a fugitive hideout and shot me some itty bitty tiny rats. Then I stopped my ship and targetted the canisters. I mean, 0 speed, 0 transversal, 0 everything. I went to 40km, used ammo that doesn't give a range boost to either of the 3 guntypes. All I wanna say is: I missed with projectiles. Can anyone explain to me how on earth I can miss a non moving target, with a non moving ship at optimal range? Bah. I What was the signature radius of these cans again? What is the signature radius of your guns? Go figure.
DeFood	Posted - 2004.08.01 19:59:00 - [15] Originally by: Gaiam guns are screwed. ccp says they work as intended, but as MANY experienced long time eve players know, and some have gone to great leangths to prove, guns are absolutely screwed. check out Tornsoul's post in general discussion where he obviously went through hours and hours of work to try to point this out. Not quite. Tornsouls graphs indicate that the guns work in the (borked) way intended. Tornsoul is correct - sane people in a universe where 1+1=2 might expect the alternate graphs Torn showed. But, be that as it may, sitting within optimal range with a 0 transversal velocity target - even Tornsouls graphs indicate that the cargo container should be reliably pummeled.
DeFood	Posted - 2004.08.01 19:59:00 - [16] Originally by: Gaiam guns are screwed. ccp says they work as intended, but as MANY experienced long time eve players know, and some have gone to great leangths to prove, guns are absolutely screwed. check out Tornsoul's post in general discussion where he obviously went through hours and hours of work to try to point this out. Not quite. Tornsouls graphs indicate that the guns work in the (borked) way intended. Tornsoul is correct - sane people in a universe where 1+1=2 might expect the alternate graphs Torn showed. But, be that as it may, sitting within optimal range with a 0 transversal velocity target - even Tornsouls graphs indicate that the cargo container should be reliably pummeled.
DeFood	Posted - 2004.08.01 20:00:00 - [17] Originally by: JoCool What was the signature radius of these cans again? What is the signature radius of your guns? Go figure. The signature radius doesnt matter. With 0 transverse velocity, well it doesnt matter how much the signature radius penalizes the guns tracking as it will still be bigger than the 0 rad/sec of the target.
DeFood	Posted - 2004.08.01 20:00:00 - [18] Originally by: JoCool What was the signature radius of these cans again? What is the signature radius of your guns? Go figure. The signature radius doesnt matter. With 0 transverse velocity, well it doesnt matter how much the signature radius penalizes the guns tracking as it will still be bigger than the 0 rad/sec of the target.
JoCool	Posted - 2004.08.01 20:06:00 - [19] Edited by: JoCool on 01/08/2004 20:08:53 Are you sure? I don't know the exact formula, but maybe the penalty is applied after calculating how good the hit will be. So it could never be higher than 50% if you shoot a 200 signature radius target with a 400 signature resolution gun. I suppose so, it would have been the easiest and fastest way to code the whole stuff in, they simply added another line to the existing formula and adjusted some tracking values. It would still match the description; you need double the amount of tracking to hit a smaller target to achieve the same results as if there were no signature radii/resolutions.
JoCool	Posted - 2004.08.01 20:06:00 - [20] Edited by: JoCool on 01/08/2004 20:08:53 Are you sure? I don't know the exact formula, but maybe the penalty is applied after calculating how good the hit will be. So it could never be higher than 50% if you shoot a 200 signature radius target with a 400 signature resolution gun. I suppose so, it would have been the easiest and fastest way to code the whole stuff in, they simply added another line to the existing formula and adjusted some tracking values. It would still match the description; you need double the amount of tracking to hit a smaller target to achieve the same results as if there were no signature radii/resolutions.
DeFood	Posted - 2004.08.01 20:23:00 - [21] You could be right, and that could be the problem. and a problem it would be as it doesnt make any kind of sense to miss 0 velocity targets due to tracking issues! At least, Noin and I dont think so. :P
DeFood	Posted - 2004.08.01 20:23:00 - [22] You could be right, and that could be the problem. and a problem it would be as it doesnt make any kind of sense to miss 0 velocity targets due to tracking issues! At least, Noin and I dont think so. :P
JoCool	Posted - 2004.08.01 20:28:00 - [23] Edited by: JoCool on 01/08/2004 20:30:20 I agree, that makes no sense to hit 50% in these circumstances. But it is like that at the moment. I brought this though up in my latter posts because it is somehow logical. Easy to implement, just one line of code, server load+lag preventing which could happen with excessive formulas... CCP's first choice probably. /me shrugs At least my missiles still work fine
JoCool	Posted - 2004.08.01 20:28:00 - [24] Edited by: JoCool on 01/08/2004 20:30:20 I agree, that makes no sense to hit 50% in these circumstances. But it is like that at the moment. I brought this though up in my latter posts because it is somehow logical. Easy to implement, just one line of code, server load+lag preventing which could happen with excessive formulas... CCP's first choice probably. /me shrugs At least my missiles still work fine
Tar om	Posted - 2004.08.01 21:08:00 - [25] Edited by: Tar om on 01/08/2004 21:15:17 Edited by: Tar om on 01/08/2004 21:12:42 I parked my Tempest 31km from a Giant Secure and fired Phased Plasma at it until I ran out, then used EMP. I didn't miss once when stationary but I did get a "barely scratches" about 1 in 5 shots. I don't think that there should have been anything but excellent hits. I then did orbit/current range. The results were shocking. Out of 30 shots I got 29 straight misses. Bear in mind that a giant secure has a signature radius of 220 (Tempest 340, Mammoth 200, Rupture 130, Probe 41). This would suggest to me that not only can a frigate circle a 1400 using Tempest with impunity - but so can a Mammoth even at 31km as long as it keeps its transverse above ~165m/s. Did CCP really intend that industrials would be immune to large turrets out as far as 30km? EDIT: I have motion prediction 5 and had an F-12 tracking mod (1.22% tracking boost) fitted and active. -- We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net http://www.serenitymovie.com
Tar om	Posted - 2004.08.01 21:08:00 - [26] Edited by: Tar om on 01/08/2004 21:15:17 Edited by: Tar om on 01/08/2004 21:12:42 I parked my Tempest 31km from a Giant Secure and fired Phased Plasma at it until I ran out, then used EMP. I didn't miss once when stationary but I did get a "barely scratches" about 1 in 5 shots. I don't think that there should have been anything but excellent hits. I then did orbit/current range. The results were shocking. Out of 30 shots I got 29 straight misses. Bear in mind that a giant secure has a signature radius of 220 (Tempest 340, Mammoth 200, Rupture 130, Probe 41). This would suggest to me that not only can a frigate circle a 1400 using Tempest with impunity - but so can a Mammoth even at 31km as long as it keeps its transverse above ~165m/s. Did CCP really intend that industrials would be immune to large turrets out as far as 30km? EDIT: I have motion prediction 5 and had an F-12 tracking mod (1.22% tracking boost) fitted and active. -- We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net http://www.serenitymovie.com
Ithildin	Posted - 2004.08.01 21:28:00 - [27] Just a quick note: Optimal range is the furthest you can be from a target before RANGE starts affecting your hits. Being within optimal range doesn't affect your hit chance, there only movement and signature radius affect your hit chance. (So in other words, using Iron or Anti-matter charges in a 425mm Railgun doesn't affect chance to hit if target is 15km from you, only damage and capacitor use) -- If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please.
Ithildin	Posted - 2004.08.01 21:28:00 - [28] Just a quick note: Optimal range is the furthest you can be from a target before RANGE starts affecting your hits. Being within optimal range doesn't affect your hit chance, there only movement and signature radius affect your hit chance. (So in other words, using Iron or Anti-matter charges in a 425mm Railgun doesn't affect chance to hit if target is 15km from you, only damage and capacitor use) -- If TC causes you discomfort that you feel is unwarranted or may be outside TC's current contract - contact me, please.
Cutter John	Posted - 2004.08.01 21:32:00 - [29] Edited by: Cutter John on 01/08/2004 21:47:35 you arent missing due to tracking issues, you are missing because guns are just not that accurate. firing at a small secure container at a dead stop i miss alot.. basically because at 40km, a 10m target is .014 degree's of arc. that is an incredibly tiny area to aim for and hit, equivalent with a 2.4 cm(not quite 1 inch) target at 100 meters. try shooting a rifle at that range irl and you will have a hard time hitting that target unless you use the highest grade ammo, as even the smallest in manufacturing defects can throw your bullet wide. this aspect of using guns is illustrated by the ideal sig radius of the gun, and the sig radius of the target, and is basically saying that a shot fired from any turret is not going to hit an exact point, but rather will hit inside of a certain area. for arguments sake, lets say a large turret at 40km has a chance to hit anywhere inside a 400m circle.. well, a 200m target takes up exactly 1/4 of the area of a 400m circle, so you have a 1 in 4 chance of hitting. thats not the way eve works of course, but the way eve works is similar, and uses the same logic. the way eve differs from real life then is not the firing cone where the bullet has a chance to hit, but the fact that in eve, the cone doesnt get smaller or larger as range increases or decreases. they say bs weapons can only be aimed inside of a 400m circle, regardless of range, when in reality it would be far easier to hit up close(not due to tracking though) and more difficult to hit at range(this IS illustrated by outside falloff) My Idea Thread Give Drones Love!
Cutter John	Posted - 2004.08.01 21:32:00 - [30] Edited by: Cutter John on 01/08/2004 21:47:35 you arent missing due to tracking issues, you are missing because guns are just not that accurate. firing at a small secure container at a dead stop i miss alot.. basically because at 40km, a 10m target is .014 degree's of arc. that is an incredibly tiny area to aim for and hit, equivalent with a 2.4 cm(not quite 1 inch) target at 100 meters. try shooting a rifle at that range irl and you will have a hard time hitting that target unless you use the highest grade ammo, as even the smallest in manufacturing defects can throw your bullet wide. this aspect of using guns is illustrated by the ideal sig radius of the gun, and the sig radius of the target, and is basically saying that a shot fired from any turret is not going to hit an exact point, but rather will hit inside of a certain area. for arguments sake, lets say a large turret at 40km has a chance to hit anywhere inside a 400m circle.. well, a 200m target takes up exactly 1/4 of the area of a 400m circle, so you have a 1 in 4 chance of hitting. thats not the way eve works of course, but the way eve works is similar, and uses the same logic. the way eve differs from real life then is not the firing cone where the bullet has a chance to hit, but the fact that in eve, the cone doesnt get smaller or larger as range increases or decreases. they say bs weapons can only be aimed inside of a 400m circle, regardless of range, when in reality it would be far easier to hit up close(not due to tracking though) and more difficult to hit at range(this IS illustrated by outside falloff) My Idea Thread Give Drones Love!

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