EVE Search - [Issue] Tempest vs Mealstrom v2

All Channels

Assembly Hall

[Issue] Tempest vs Mealstrom v2

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 :: one page
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.01 22:27:00 - [1] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 01/02/2009 22:33:48 (note, graphs showed old 10% damage and 10% tracking values for the tempest) Everyone wants/uses the tempest as a cheap sniper although the maelstrom is a little superior. The maelstrom also has a **** tone of extra power grid, a fat tank and in close range situations, it trumps the tempest 7 times out of 8. Enter New Tempest * 7.5% damage per level, 5% tracking speed per level. * Increased drone bay to 150m3 and bandwidth to 125 * 5-15% Agility increase 1650mm Artillery * 4000 pg power grid riqs (3600 with awu V) * 5% more dps * 15% more alpha * 5% less ROF * 30% less tracking * 20% more optimal range Maelstrom 5% rof per level, 5% shield HP per level 8/7/4 slots. Loses 25mb of bandwidth (down to 75m3) Stats Verses a typical cruiser mwding In the above, both have 2 tracking computers with tracking speed scripts fitted, and 1 tracking enhancer fitted. With 50% more tracking, the new tempest has a much improved hit chance against cruisers within 30km. It's worth noting that with the new web changes, the tempest would become one of the most viable battleships for fighting anything smaller than it's class within web range. This can also been seen when using artillery against cruisers, a tempest is now competitive against an Apocalypse with tachyons within the 100km, gun per gun, however it's worth noting that the Apocalypse would be fitting 7-8 tachs with 2 heat syncs (as shown in the charts) where as the tempest would be fitting 6 1200mm or 1400 artillery. The difference would be in that fitting 1200mm artillery, a full passive tank would be possible, combined with fitting medium nos, heavy missiles or remote repair gear, with no cap considerations. In 1650mm land... Vs BS's in fleet situations.Although the maelstrom and tempest, using 1400mm's remains unchanged against more or less static targets, the 1650mm artillery, which can only feasibly used by the maelstrom gains about 20% range, 5% dps and 15% alpha (5% more than the new tempest) with around 30% reduction to the turrets tracking speed. Vs battlecruiser sized targets however, most of those gains are lost and against cruisers, 1650mm artillery are completely ineffective where as tempests regain there edge when using 1200mm artillery against cruiser sized targets. It should be noted that a max damage, sniping Tach-Abaddon (500dps) would still out damage a 1650mm Maelstrom up to about 170km. Rational? This splits the tempest's and maelstrom's roles in a number of situations. The New Tempest. Ship wise, with the new changes approaching, the tempest becomes the premiFre, close in dog fighter whilst using auto cannons. Now it's potentially strong with afterburners, against battleships orbiting within web range, and able to hold it's own against anything small looking to get under it's guns. After the web nerf, it's likely many battleships would have problems with cruiser sized targets, the tempest would be the exception. With 1200mm or 1400 Artillery, the Tempest would now find a new role, as the cheaper, anti support sniper that would fair much more successfully than the Maelstrom for anti support work. With 1200mm's, plates and/or energy neutralisers could be fitted to deal with anything that happened to get too close. ____ My Blog Is Awesome
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.01 22:27:00 - [2] The New Mealstrom The Maelstrom, retains most of it's tanking ability and gains the much needed competitiveness at 180-200km range minmatar have been sorely lacking. It maintains it's, stand-off, main-battle or ship of the line role in close range engagements with improved falloff (compare it to the rokh-250mm rails/Abbadon or apoc with pulses before screaming imbala) whilst keeping the majority of it's tanking ablity with the added mid slot. With 1400mm artillery, the maelstrom practically performs as before with slightly greater fall off than the tempest, but much poorer tracking, however fitting 1650mm artillery becomes harder. Like Amarr pilots with tachyon lasers, fitting slots would be requried, with similar decisions as to how to fit given the limited nature of slots. Using 1650mm artillery, fitting a maelstrom should require at least 1 RCU II and a PDU II with a mwd with mix filling skills, this could be worked around by using grid implants, grid rigs or just by dropping a gyrostablier from your fit (as you now only have 4 to play with) but for the added range and alpha from 1650mm's, and potentially improved close range performance, I hope this would be a satisfactory compromise. And where does this leave the Megathron/hyperion? Until the CCP fixes torps (lol double sig rad of torps), the Megathron and Hyperion and the Rokh for that matter are kinda in the mud, i'd be welcome to a strate 3-5% damage increase on blasters because with the web and mass/mwd/accelerations changes they have really gone and screwed things up in favor of medium range - which now in most cases does stupid damage outside of 10km-20km, and the hyperion... lol, but whatever, i'll made a thread about it when i've figured it out. But I want My Tempest to be... It's almost as cheap as most tier 1 battleships, with a typhoon that would be a better tempest than a tempest could ever be. It needs to be something more than the it can 1v1 a megathron (even though now it still could, sort of) or that 1400mm lol alphapest from 2006. The game has evolved, it's clearer now than ever that when a ship finds a niche, it finds a way into your hanger and it's this elevation from other battleships into something new/different we should be all striving for. The game has evolve, your ideals will evolve, and now CPP, the Tempest must evolve Why this is Balanced? Why are ravens, which are able to do 1100 dps with any damage type out to 30km balanced? Why are beams which have incredible tracking and damage, and now with the Apocalypse, at highly competitive ranges balanced? I really don't know, but when you place the changes here in that context, combined with some of the stunning flaws inherent with the tools (lol, artillery clip size) and ideology (split weapons????) minmatar ships have to live with, combined with the fact that versatilely and utility count for **all after various waves of nerfs and balances (alpha??? lol) I, and many others would be willing to say that not only is it balanced, it's fair. Why 1650mm and not 1600mm's?** Because every minmatar knows, every millimeter counts ;) (I really don't care what there called tbh, as long as it's a number bigger than 1400) ____ My Blog Is Awesome
Skywalker Minmatar Darkness and Chaos Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.01 22:55:00 - [3] Well thought through post, bump.
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.01 23:06:00 - [4] Originally by: Skywalker Well thought through post, bump. Please support the topic by clicking on the "Check here if you want to give your support to the idea/discussion going on" box... Epic Minmatar thread incoming.
Six Strangelove Quam Singulari Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.01 23:22:00 - [5] Supported.
Arbonax Quam Singulari Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.01 23:24:00 - [6] supported
Sensor Boosting	Posted - 2009.02.01 23:57:00 - [7] Edited by: Sensor Boosting on 02/02/2009 00:02:18 Edited by: Sensor Boosting on 01/02/2009 23:57:22 Quote: it's likely many battleships would have problems with cruiser sized targets, the tempest would be the exception. drones + webs do the trick against cruisers Quote: Tempest would now find a new role, as the cheaper, anti support sniper that would fair much more successfully than the Maelstrom for anti support work. With 1200mm's, plates and/or energy neutralisers could be fitted to deal with anything that happened to get too close isnt that what support is for....for killing enemy support? Quote: Why this is Balanced? Why are ravens, which are able to do 1100 dps with any damage type out to 30km balanced? sig radius and speed play a big part in making sure ravens dont do that much dps against anything smaller than a moon
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.02.02 00:22:00 - [8] As I said numerous times, Minmatar is the only race without a sniper/fleet dedicated ship (ie a ship with an optimal range or tracking bonus) Tempest is the perfect ship to change. I dislike the Maelstrom changes mainly because they are just never going to happen. Minmatar gets active shield tanking bonuses, that is what we get and it won't change. 7th mid would be hot but Mimmatar ships cannot get more mids than the caldari raven so that is never going to happen. Might as well ask for the +drone damage bonus on the typhoon instead of the projectile bonus :) Supporting changing the Tempest so it can snipe better. 1650mm arty is nice, are you also in support of a 3rd type of pulse laser?
galphi Unitary Senate Unitary Enterprises	Posted - 2009.02.02 00:24:00 - [9] Ever since the Maelstrom was released, the Tempest felt like an obsolete platform for sniping. Switching it to AC specialist makes perfect sense. Supported!
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.02 00:47:00 - [10] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 02/02/2009 00:47:02 Originally by: Sensor Boosting drones + webs do the trick against cruisers, but against nano sniping hac's? Originally by: Sensor Boosting isnt that what support is for....for killing enemy support? Tactical asymmetry is a good thing, it's less of a problem since the nano-nerf. Originally by: Sensor Boosting sig radius and speed play a big part in making sure ravens dont do that much dps against anything smaller than a moon A drake is a pretty small moon ____ My Blog Is Awesome
Drake Draconis Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.02.02 01:04:00 - [11] Niiice /signed
Sensor Boosting	Posted - 2009.02.02 01:12:00 - [12] Originally by: Pattern Clarc Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 02/02/2009 00:47:02 Originally by: Sensor Boosting drones + webs do the trick against cruisers, but against nano sniping hac's? Originally by: Sensor Boosting isnt that what support is for....for killing enemy support? Tactical asymmetry is a good thing, it's less of a problem since the nano-nerf. Originally by: Sensor Boosting sig radius and speed play a big part in making sure ravens dont do that much dps against anything smaller than a moon A drake is a pretty small moon sniping nano hac? battleships cant be god at everything, u think a mega cant hit a sniping nano hac? what about a raven with torps? about the drake....need to slow the drake down to less than 90/ms for torps to do full dmg
Amantus 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.02.02 01:43:00 - [13] Definitely.
Daelin Blackleaf Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2009.02.02 02:24:00 - [14]
Kin'Tarr Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.02 02:30:00 - [15] Great post! Artillery always needed that third tier! K.O.S
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.02 02:38:00 - [16] Originally by: Sensor Boosting sniping nano hac? battleships cant be good at everything, u think a mega can hit a sniping nano hac? what about a raven with torps? Sure, but it would be nice if the tempest was good at, one thing... you know? Originally by: Sensor Boosting about the drake....need to slow the drake down to less than 90/ms for torps to do full dmg But at 145m/s it's still going more than all the other turrets. ____ My Blog Is Awesome
Torgor Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.02.02 03:22:00 - [17] Love it
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.02 03:38:00 - [18] The Tracking is one of the main problems with minmatar sniping, for the love of god don't make it any worse. Signature removed. Not appropriate for the EVE Online forums. Navigator
Ort Lofthus Wildlands Heavy Technologies FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2009.02.02 05:36:00 - [19] Edited by: Ort Lofthus on 02/02/2009 05:35:59 I like the idea for the tempest a lot, but I would give it the standard 7.5% tracking along with the 7.5% damage. The agility buff would also improve its utility. If it were as agile as a BC, coupled with its tracking bonus, it would be easier to bring along on fast moving cruiser/BC gangs, where its various utility slots are of greater use.
Alex Logan Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.02.02 06:22:00 - [20] o/
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.02 07:26:00 - [21] Edited by: NightmareX on 02/02/2009 07:30:29 Even when i like the Tempest as it is now for close range, i still think the Tempest could need those changes tbh. I'm not a Maelstrom user, so i don't directly know how the ship is, so i can't say anything about boosting for the Maelstrom yet then.
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2009.02.02 07:52:00 - [22] Originally by: Pattern Clarc New Tempest * 7.5% damage per level, 5% tracking speed per level. * Increased drone bay to 150m3 and bandwidth to 125 * 5-15% Agility increase Originally by: Megathron bonus SpecialSpecial Ability: 5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret damage and 7.5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level. Why would I use a megathron? The tempest will just become a megathron, more versatile in different roles that's slightly more agile and actually can fight at a reasonable range. Oh, it also have a dronebay larger than other ships. Only drone-ships have drone-bays larger than that of it's bandwidth. I can't support this. I'm generally against balancing issues like this overall. This issue has certainly nothing but strengthened my believe that balancing issues are completely crap
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.02 08:32:00 - [23] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 02/02/2009 08:33:41 Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Pattern Clarc New Tempest * 7.5% damage per level, 5% tracking speed per level. * Increased drone bay to 150m3 and bandwidth to 125 * 5-15% Agility increase Originally by: Megathron bonus SpecialSpecial Ability: 5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret damage and 7.5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level. Why would I use a megathron? The tempest will just become a megathron, more versatile in different roles that's slightly more agile and actually can fight at a reasonable range. Oh, it also have a dronebay larger than other ships. Only drone-ships have drone-bays larger than that of it's bandwidth. I can't support this. I'm generally against balancing issues like this overall. This issue has certainly nothing but strengthened my believe that balancing issues are completely crap The megathron has vastly superior range, better tracking still and more damage, the megathron even after the changes would be the better sniper. Don't get all emo because all the bonuses look the same, differences in slot layouts and weapon systems are enough to differentiate the ships and there roles. Autocannon wise, the tempest would still suffer from having 6 low slots, +similar damage with the only difference being how well autocannons compare to pulses... ____ My Blog Is Awesome
Sensor Boosting	Posted - 2009.02.02 08:34:00 - [24] Originally by: Pattern Clarc Originally by: Sensor Boosting sniping nano hac? battleships cant be good at everything, u think a mega can hit a sniping nano hac? what about a raven with torps? Sure, but it would be nice if the tempest was good at, one thing... you know? Originally by: Sensor Boosting about the drake....need to slow the drake down to less than 90/ms for torps to do full dmg But at 145m/s it's still going more than all the other turrets. tempest is good at close range dmg atm. unless u dont know how to use it. and as lavista vista said.....why would anyone use a megathron after that?
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.02 08:47:00 - [25] Originally by: Sensor Boosting Originally by: Pattern Clarc Originally by: Sensor Boosting sniping nano hac? battleships cant be good at everything, u think a mega can hit a sniping nano hac? what about a raven with torps? Sure, but it would be nice if the tempest was good at, one thing... you know? Originally by: Sensor Boosting about the drake....need to slow the drake down to less than 90/ms for torps to do full dmg But at 145m/s it's still going more than all the other turrets. tempest is good at close range dmg atm. unless u dont know how to use it. and as lavista vista said.....why would anyone use a megathron after that? A megathron would still do more damage, have a better passive tank with better tracking weapons. Sure, it would not beat a tempest 1v1 every single time now, but within warp distruption range, it would still dominate as it does presently. a 7.25% damage bonus, gives the tempest 416 dps with hail. Thats nearly a 100 dps drop from the TQ version (505 dps). The increased drone bay adds another 127 dps bringing it roughly inline with what it was at close range - a net 39 dps gain. The real question should be why do people fly megathron's instead of an apoc/typhoon/(insert armor tanking turret ship here) ____ My Blog Is Awesome
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2009.02.02 08:50:00 - [26] Originally by: Pattern Clarc Sure, it would not beat a tempest 1v1 every single time now A tempest can beat a megat every time now if the pilot is any good. It's all down to the pilot.
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.02 08:55:00 - [27] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 02/02/2009 08:58:03 Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Pattern Clarc Sure, it would not beat a tempest 1v1 every single time now A tempest can beat a megat every time now if the pilot is any good. It's all down to the pilot. The fact that your trying to have this discussion in an attempt to suggest that the tempest equv to the megathron suggests that something wrong. Have you ever flown a typhoon against a megathron? Sure, they'll have similar bonuses, but beyond extra tracking 1v1 wise, little changes. For sniping and anti support, it sets it's self apart from the Maelstrom and creates a niche within the battleship line up - thats the objective, and I think I achieve that with these changes. ____ My Blog Is Awesome
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2009.02.02 09:13:00 - [28] Originally by: Pattern Clarc Have you ever flown a typhoon against a megathron? I don't do 1v1. Balancing things based on 1v1 in general is a faulty way of doing it, imo. I fly a pilgrim solo and kill battleships with it by myself. Does that mean battleships are underpowered or pilgrim is overpowered? No. It just means that I knew to fly my ship better than my opponent knew his. But don't underestimate a typhoon. Given player skills and skillpoints(seeing as you need both AC and missiles), the phoon might just win. Having flown one myself I'm very well aware of how nasty it can be, despite people's perception of it as a trashbin.
Sensor Boosting	Posted - 2009.02.02 09:15:00 - [29] Originally by: Pattern Clarc Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 02/02/2009 08:58:03 Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Pattern Clarc Sure, it would not beat a tempest 1v1 every single time now A tempest can beat a megat every time now if the pilot is any good. It's all down to the pilot. The fact that your trying to have this discussion in an attempt to suggest that the tempest equv to the megathron suggests that something wrong. Have you ever flown a typhoon against a megathron? Sure, they'll have similar bonuses, but beyond extra tracking 1v1 wise, little changes. For sniping and anti support, it sets it's self apart from the Maelstrom and creates a niche within the battleship line up - thats the objective, and I think I achieve that with these changes. i have flown a typhoon, but we r talking about the tempest here. with your changes its giving the tempest less dps (giving it more drones makes it worse as drones can be killed, thus losing more dps than current tq version). i still dont see how it will be a sniping anti-support....this is arties you are talking about isnt it?
The Pie Beets and Gravy Syndicate The InterBus Initiative	Posted - 2009.02.02 09:26:00 - [30] Edited by: The Pie on 02/02/2009 09:26:35 Supported. I've felt I've wasted training time into maxing Minmatar battleships, and turned towards training and always flying Amarr.

Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.