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[Issue] Tempest vs Mealstrom v2

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Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.01 22:27:00 - [1] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 01/02/2009 22:33:48 (note, graphs showed old 10% damage and 10% tracking values for the tempest) Everyone wants/uses the tempest as a cheap sniper although the maelstrom is a little superior. The maelstrom also has a **** tone of extra power grid, a fat tank and in close range situations, it trumps the tempest 7 times out of 8. Enter New Tempest * 7.5% damage per level, 5% tracking speed per level. * Increased drone bay to 150m3 and bandwidth to 125 * 5-15% Agility increase 1650mm Artillery * 4000 pg power grid riqs (3600 with awu V) * 5% more dps * 15% more alpha * 5% less ROF * 30% less tracking * 20% more optimal range Maelstrom 5% rof per level, 5% shield HP per level 8/7/4 slots. Loses 25mb of bandwidth (down to 75m3) Stats Verses a typical cruiser mwding In the above, both have 2 tracking computers with tracking speed scripts fitted, and 1 tracking enhancer fitted. With 50% more tracking, the new tempest has a much improved hit chance against cruisers within 30km. It's worth noting that with the new web changes, the tempest would become one of the most viable battleships for fighting anything smaller than it's class within web range. This can also been seen when using artillery against cruisers, a tempest is now competitive against an Apocalypse with tachyons within the 100km, gun per gun, however it's worth noting that the Apocalypse would be fitting 7-8 tachs with 2 heat syncs (as shown in the charts) where as the tempest would be fitting 6 1200mm or 1400 artillery. The difference would be in that fitting 1200mm artillery, a full passive tank would be possible, combined with fitting medium nos, heavy missiles or remote repair gear, with no cap considerations. In 1650mm land... Vs BS's in fleet situations.Although the maelstrom and tempest, using 1400mm's remains unchanged against more or less static targets, the 1650mm artillery, which can only feasibly used by the maelstrom gains about 20% range, 5% dps and 15% alpha (5% more than the new tempest) with around 30% reduction to the turrets tracking speed. Vs battlecruiser sized targets however, most of those gains are lost and against cruisers, 1650mm artillery are completely ineffective where as tempests regain there edge when using 1200mm artillery against cruiser sized targets. It should be noted that a max damage, sniping Tach-Abaddon (500dps) would still out damage a 1650mm Maelstrom up to about 170km. Rational? This splits the tempest's and maelstrom's roles in a number of situations. The New Tempest. Ship wise, with the new changes approaching, the tempest becomes the premiFre, close in dog fighter whilst using auto cannons. Now it's potentially strong with afterburners, against battleships orbiting within web range, and able to hold it's own against anything small looking to get under it's guns. After the web nerf, it's likely many battleships would have problems with cruiser sized targets, the tempest would be the exception. With 1200mm or 1400 Artillery, the Tempest would now find a new role, as the cheaper, anti support sniper that would fair much more successfully than the Maelstrom for anti support work. With 1200mm's, plates and/or energy neutralisers could be fitted to deal with anything that happened to get too close. ____ My Blog Is Awesome
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.01 22:27:00 - [2] The New Mealstrom The Maelstrom, retains most of it's tanking ability and gains the much needed competitiveness at 180-200km range minmatar have been sorely lacking. It maintains it's, stand-off, main-battle or ship of the line role in close range engagements with improved falloff (compare it to the rokh-250mm rails/Abbadon or apoc with pulses before screaming imbala) whilst keeping the majority of it's tanking ablity with the added mid slot. With 1400mm artillery, the maelstrom practically performs as before with slightly greater fall off than the tempest, but much poorer tracking, however fitting 1650mm artillery becomes harder. Like Amarr pilots with tachyon lasers, fitting slots would be requried, with similar decisions as to how to fit given the limited nature of slots. Using 1650mm artillery, fitting a maelstrom should require at least 1 RCU II and a PDU II with a mwd with mix filling skills, this could be worked around by using grid implants, grid rigs or just by dropping a gyrostablier from your fit (as you now only have 4 to play with) but for the added range and alpha from 1650mm's, and potentially improved close range performance, I hope this would be a satisfactory compromise. And where does this leave the Megathron/hyperion? Until the CCP fixes torps (lol double sig rad of torps), the Megathron and Hyperion and the Rokh for that matter are kinda in the mud, i'd be welcome to a strate 3-5% damage increase on blasters because with the web and mass/mwd/accelerations changes they have really gone and screwed things up in favor of medium range - which now in most cases does stupid damage outside of 10km-20km, and the hyperion... lol, but whatever, i'll made a thread about it when i've figured it out. But I want My Tempest to be... It's almost as cheap as most tier 1 battleships, with a typhoon that would be a better tempest than a tempest could ever be. It needs to be something more than the it can 1v1 a megathron (even though now it still could, sort of) or that 1400mm lol alphapest from 2006. The game has evolved, it's clearer now than ever that when a ship finds a niche, it finds a way into your hanger and it's this elevation from other battleships into something new/different we should be all striving for. The game has evolve, your ideals will evolve, and now CPP, the Tempest must evolve Why this is Balanced? Why are ravens, which are able to do 1100 dps with any damage type out to 30km balanced? Why are beams which have incredible tracking and damage, and now with the Apocalypse, at highly competitive ranges balanced? I really don't know, but when you place the changes here in that context, combined with some of the stunning flaws inherent with the tools (lol, artillery clip size) and ideology (split weapons????) minmatar ships have to live with, combined with the fact that versatilely and utility count for **all after various waves of nerfs and balances (alpha??? lol) I, and many others would be willing to say that not only is it balanced, it's fair. Why 1650mm and not 1600mm's?** Because every minmatar knows, every millimeter counts ;) (I really don't care what there called tbh, as long as it's a number bigger than 1400) ____ My Blog Is Awesome
Skywalker Minmatar Darkness and Chaos Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.01 22:55:00 - [3] Well thought through post, bump.
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.01 23:06:00 - [4] Originally by: Skywalker Well thought through post, bump. Please support the topic by clicking on the "Check here if you want to give your support to the idea/discussion going on" box... Epic Minmatar thread incoming.
Six Strangelove Quam Singulari Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.01 23:22:00 - [5] Supported.
Arbonax Quam Singulari Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.01 23:24:00 - [6] supported
Sensor Boosting	Posted - 2009.02.01 23:57:00 - [7] Edited by: Sensor Boosting on 02/02/2009 00:02:18 Edited by: Sensor Boosting on 01/02/2009 23:57:22 Quote: it's likely many battleships would have problems with cruiser sized targets, the tempest would be the exception. drones + webs do the trick against cruisers Quote: Tempest would now find a new role, as the cheaper, anti support sniper that would fair much more successfully than the Maelstrom for anti support work. With 1200mm's, plates and/or energy neutralisers could be fitted to deal with anything that happened to get too close isnt that what support is for....for killing enemy support? Quote: Why this is Balanced? Why are ravens, which are able to do 1100 dps with any damage type out to 30km balanced? sig radius and speed play a big part in making sure ravens dont do that much dps against anything smaller than a moon
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.02.02 00:22:00 - [8] As I said numerous times, Minmatar is the only race without a sniper/fleet dedicated ship (ie a ship with an optimal range or tracking bonus) Tempest is the perfect ship to change. I dislike the Maelstrom changes mainly because they are just never going to happen. Minmatar gets active shield tanking bonuses, that is what we get and it won't change. 7th mid would be hot but Mimmatar ships cannot get more mids than the caldari raven so that is never going to happen. Might as well ask for the +drone damage bonus on the typhoon instead of the projectile bonus :) Supporting changing the Tempest so it can snipe better. 1650mm arty is nice, are you also in support of a 3rd type of pulse laser?
galphi Unitary Senate Unitary Enterprises	Posted - 2009.02.02 00:24:00 - [9] Ever since the Maelstrom was released, the Tempest felt like an obsolete platform for sniping. Switching it to AC specialist makes perfect sense. Supported!
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.02 00:47:00 - [10] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 02/02/2009 00:47:02 Originally by: Sensor Boosting drones + webs do the trick against cruisers, but against nano sniping hac's? Originally by: Sensor Boosting isnt that what support is for....for killing enemy support? Tactical asymmetry is a good thing, it's less of a problem since the nano-nerf. Originally by: Sensor Boosting sig radius and speed play a big part in making sure ravens dont do that much dps against anything smaller than a moon A drake is a pretty small moon ____ My Blog Is Awesome
Drake Draconis Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium	Posted - 2009.02.02 01:04:00 - [11] Niiice /signed
Sensor Boosting	Posted - 2009.02.02 01:12:00 - [12] Originally by: Pattern Clarc Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 02/02/2009 00:47:02 Originally by: Sensor Boosting drones + webs do the trick against cruisers, but against nano sniping hac's? Originally by: Sensor Boosting isnt that what support is for....for killing enemy support? Tactical asymmetry is a good thing, it's less of a problem since the nano-nerf. Originally by: Sensor Boosting sig radius and speed play a big part in making sure ravens dont do that much dps against anything smaller than a moon A drake is a pretty small moon sniping nano hac? battleships cant be god at everything, u think a mega cant hit a sniping nano hac? what about a raven with torps? about the drake....need to slow the drake down to less than 90/ms for torps to do full dmg
Amantus 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.02.02 01:43:00 - [13] Definitely.
Daelin Blackleaf Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2009.02.02 02:24:00 - [14]
Kin'Tarr Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.02 02:30:00 - [15] Great post! Artillery always needed that third tier! K.O.S
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.02 02:38:00 - [16] Originally by: Sensor Boosting sniping nano hac? battleships cant be good at everything, u think a mega can hit a sniping nano hac? what about a raven with torps? Sure, but it would be nice if the tempest was good at, one thing... you know? Originally by: Sensor Boosting about the drake....need to slow the drake down to less than 90/ms for torps to do full dmg But at 145m/s it's still going more than all the other turrets. ____ My Blog Is Awesome
Torgor Tribal Liberation Force	Posted - 2009.02.02 03:22:00 - [17] Love it
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.02 03:38:00 - [18] The Tracking is one of the main problems with minmatar sniping, for the love of god don't make it any worse. Signature removed. Not appropriate for the EVE Online forums. Navigator
Ort Lofthus Wildlands Heavy Technologies FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2009.02.02 05:36:00 - [19] Edited by: Ort Lofthus on 02/02/2009 05:35:59 I like the idea for the tempest a lot, but I would give it the standard 7.5% tracking along with the 7.5% damage. The agility buff would also improve its utility. If it were as agile as a BC, coupled with its tracking bonus, it would be easier to bring along on fast moving cruiser/BC gangs, where its various utility slots are of greater use.
Alex Logan Brutor tribe	Posted - 2009.02.02 06:22:00 - [20] o/
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.02 07:26:00 - [21] Edited by: NightmareX on 02/02/2009 07:30:29 Even when i like the Tempest as it is now for close range, i still think the Tempest could need those changes tbh. I'm not a Maelstrom user, so i don't directly know how the ship is, so i can't say anything about boosting for the Maelstrom yet then.
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2009.02.02 07:52:00 - [22] Originally by: Pattern Clarc New Tempest * 7.5% damage per level, 5% tracking speed per level. * Increased drone bay to 150m3 and bandwidth to 125 * 5-15% Agility increase Originally by: Megathron bonus SpecialSpecial Ability: 5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret damage and 7.5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level. Why would I use a megathron? The tempest will just become a megathron, more versatile in different roles that's slightly more agile and actually can fight at a reasonable range. Oh, it also have a dronebay larger than other ships. Only drone-ships have drone-bays larger than that of it's bandwidth. I can't support this. I'm generally against balancing issues like this overall. This issue has certainly nothing but strengthened my believe that balancing issues are completely crap
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.02 08:32:00 - [23] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 02/02/2009 08:33:41 Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Pattern Clarc New Tempest * 7.5% damage per level, 5% tracking speed per level. * Increased drone bay to 150m3 and bandwidth to 125 * 5-15% Agility increase Originally by: Megathron bonus SpecialSpecial Ability: 5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret damage and 7.5% bonus to Large Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level. Why would I use a megathron? The tempest will just become a megathron, more versatile in different roles that's slightly more agile and actually can fight at a reasonable range. Oh, it also have a dronebay larger than other ships. Only drone-ships have drone-bays larger than that of it's bandwidth. I can't support this. I'm generally against balancing issues like this overall. This issue has certainly nothing but strengthened my believe that balancing issues are completely crap The megathron has vastly superior range, better tracking still and more damage, the megathron even after the changes would be the better sniper. Don't get all emo because all the bonuses look the same, differences in slot layouts and weapon systems are enough to differentiate the ships and there roles. Autocannon wise, the tempest would still suffer from having 6 low slots, +similar damage with the only difference being how well autocannons compare to pulses... ____ My Blog Is Awesome
Sensor Boosting	Posted - 2009.02.02 08:34:00 - [24] Originally by: Pattern Clarc Originally by: Sensor Boosting sniping nano hac? battleships cant be good at everything, u think a mega can hit a sniping nano hac? what about a raven with torps? Sure, but it would be nice if the tempest was good at, one thing... you know? Originally by: Sensor Boosting about the drake....need to slow the drake down to less than 90/ms for torps to do full dmg But at 145m/s it's still going more than all the other turrets. tempest is good at close range dmg atm. unless u dont know how to use it. and as lavista vista said.....why would anyone use a megathron after that?
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.02 08:47:00 - [25] Originally by: Sensor Boosting Originally by: Pattern Clarc Originally by: Sensor Boosting sniping nano hac? battleships cant be good at everything, u think a mega can hit a sniping nano hac? what about a raven with torps? Sure, but it would be nice if the tempest was good at, one thing... you know? Originally by: Sensor Boosting about the drake....need to slow the drake down to less than 90/ms for torps to do full dmg But at 145m/s it's still going more than all the other turrets. tempest is good at close range dmg atm. unless u dont know how to use it. and as lavista vista said.....why would anyone use a megathron after that? A megathron would still do more damage, have a better passive tank with better tracking weapons. Sure, it would not beat a tempest 1v1 every single time now, but within warp distruption range, it would still dominate as it does presently. a 7.25% damage bonus, gives the tempest 416 dps with hail. Thats nearly a 100 dps drop from the TQ version (505 dps). The increased drone bay adds another 127 dps bringing it roughly inline with what it was at close range - a net 39 dps gain. The real question should be why do people fly megathron's instead of an apoc/typhoon/(insert armor tanking turret ship here) ____ My Blog Is Awesome
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2009.02.02 08:50:00 - [26] Originally by: Pattern Clarc Sure, it would not beat a tempest 1v1 every single time now A tempest can beat a megat every time now if the pilot is any good. It's all down to the pilot.
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.02 08:55:00 - [27] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 02/02/2009 08:58:03 Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Pattern Clarc Sure, it would not beat a tempest 1v1 every single time now A tempest can beat a megat every time now if the pilot is any good. It's all down to the pilot. The fact that your trying to have this discussion in an attempt to suggest that the tempest equv to the megathron suggests that something wrong. Have you ever flown a typhoon against a megathron? Sure, they'll have similar bonuses, but beyond extra tracking 1v1 wise, little changes. For sniping and anti support, it sets it's self apart from the Maelstrom and creates a niche within the battleship line up - thats the objective, and I think I achieve that with these changes. ____ My Blog Is Awesome
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2009.02.02 09:13:00 - [28] Originally by: Pattern Clarc Have you ever flown a typhoon against a megathron? I don't do 1v1. Balancing things based on 1v1 in general is a faulty way of doing it, imo. I fly a pilgrim solo and kill battleships with it by myself. Does that mean battleships are underpowered or pilgrim is overpowered? No. It just means that I knew to fly my ship better than my opponent knew his. But don't underestimate a typhoon. Given player skills and skillpoints(seeing as you need both AC and missiles), the phoon might just win. Having flown one myself I'm very well aware of how nasty it can be, despite people's perception of it as a trashbin.
Sensor Boosting	Posted - 2009.02.02 09:15:00 - [29] Originally by: Pattern Clarc Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 02/02/2009 08:58:03 Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Pattern Clarc Sure, it would not beat a tempest 1v1 every single time now A tempest can beat a megat every time now if the pilot is any good. It's all down to the pilot. The fact that your trying to have this discussion in an attempt to suggest that the tempest equv to the megathron suggests that something wrong. Have you ever flown a typhoon against a megathron? Sure, they'll have similar bonuses, but beyond extra tracking 1v1 wise, little changes. For sniping and anti support, it sets it's self apart from the Maelstrom and creates a niche within the battleship line up - thats the objective, and I think I achieve that with these changes. i have flown a typhoon, but we r talking about the tempest here. with your changes its giving the tempest less dps (giving it more drones makes it worse as drones can be killed, thus losing more dps than current tq version). i still dont see how it will be a sniping anti-support....this is arties you are talking about isnt it?
The Pie Beets and Gravy Syndicate The InterBus Initiative	Posted - 2009.02.02 09:26:00 - [30] Edited by: The Pie on 02/02/2009 09:26:35 Supported. I've felt I've wasted training time into maxing Minmatar battleships, and turned towards training and always flying Amarr.
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.02 09:26:00 - [31] Originally by: Sensor Boosting Originally by: Pattern Clarc Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 02/02/2009 08:58:03 Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Pattern Clarc Sure, it would not beat a tempest 1v1 every single time now A tempest can beat a megat every time now if the pilot is any good. It's all down to the pilot. The fact that your trying to have this discussion in an attempt to suggest that the tempest equv to the megathron suggests that something wrong. Have you ever flown a typhoon against a megathron? Sure, they'll have similar bonuses, but beyond extra tracking 1v1 wise, little changes. For sniping and anti support, it sets it's self apart from the Maelstrom and creates a niche within the battleship line up - thats the objective, and I think I achieve that with these changes. i have flown a typhoon, but we r talking about the tempest here. with your changes its giving the tempest less dps (giving it more drones makes it worse as drones can be killed, thus losing more dps than current tq version). i still dont see how it will be a sniping anti-support....this is arties you are talking about isnt it? It'll have better tracking with artillery, and more alpha with 1400mm's (12.5% more) with an increased drone bay similar (but not as large as) the typhoon. ____ My Blog Is Awesome
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.02 09:31:00 - [32] Originally by: Pattern Clarc It'll have better tracking with artillery, and more alpha with 1400mm's (12.5% more) with an increased drone bay similar (but not as large as) the typhoon. If tracking is what matters in anti-support it will still be worse with arties. But you may have also created problems with the ship when used with AC's.
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.02.02 11:23:00 - [33] I just noticed that the thread is titled " [Issue] Tempest vs Mealstrom v2". Mealstrom, om nom nom nom nom nom. You gotta admit, the Typhoon/Maelstrom does any role better than the Tempest, isn't that worth looking at? I would also like to see this Tempest fitting that can *beat any megathron pilot*.
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.02 11:32:00 - [34] Originally by: Vaal Erit I just noticed that the thread is titled " [Issue] Tempest vs Mealstrom v2". Mealstrom, om nom nom nom nom nom. You gotta admit, the Typhoon/Maelstrom does any role better than the Tempest, isn't that worth looking at? I would also like to see this Tempest fitting that can *beat any megathron pilot. He's probably thinking, LAR+1600mm plate, dual webs, dual neuts, or something, whilst forgetting that theres half a dozen ships in which that razor thin balance between death and the target warping the *** out just doesn't apply. Not that the situation in of it's self is how you balance anything. (lolapoc) ____ My Blog Is Awesome
Sensor Boosting	Posted - 2009.02.02 11:33:00 - [35] Originally by: Vaal Erit I just noticed that the thread is titled " [Issue] Tempest vs Mealstrom v2". Mealstrom, om nom nom nom nom nom. You gotta admit, the Typhoon/Maelstrom does any role better than the Tempest, isn't that worth looking at? I would also like to see this Tempest fitting that can *beat any megathron pilot*. tempest fitting is 800's siege launchers, gyrostabs, plates web, mwd painter, other stuff.....oh and pilot skill
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.02.02 11:46:00 - [36] Lol at this stupid thread. This is not balance ,this is how to make matar the best in everything even in fleet sniping.
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.02 12:05:00 - [37] Originally by: Naomi Knight Lol at this stupid thread. This is not balance ,this is how to make matar the best in everything even in fleet sniping. Nope, even after these changes, it would still have to go to the amarr.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.02.02 12:13:00 - [38] Originally by: Pattern Clarc Originally by: Naomi Knight Lol at this stupid thread. This is not balance ,this is how to make matar the best in everything even in fleet sniping. Nope, even after these changes, it would still have to go to the amarr. Who cares about amarr as apoc is op. Both megathron and rokh would be completly useless compared to the tempest. Matar--> speed and hit and run close range race --> no need to have good sniper fleet bs
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.02.02 12:15:00 - [39] Originally by: Sensor Boosting Originally by: Vaal Erit I just noticed that the thread is titled " [Issue] Tempest vs Mealstrom v2". Mealstrom, om nom nom nom nom nom. You gotta admit, the Typhoon/Maelstrom does any role better than the Tempest, isn't that worth looking at? I would also like to see this Tempest fitting that can *beat any megathron pilot*. tempest fitting is 800's siege launchers, gyrostabs, plates web, mwd painter, other stuff.....oh and pilot skill Thanks for proving my point. Phoon does plate gank much better and the pest will do less damage than the megat at the same ranges, unless you are trying to make us believe you can stay out of web range of a megat? Pilot skill nothing, the megat is going to catch you and you will be fighting at 5km while webbed.
Sensor Boosting	Posted - 2009.02.02 12:22:00 - [40] Edited by: Sensor Boosting on 02/02/2009 12:25:51 Originally by: Vaal Erit Originally by: Sensor Boosting Originally by: Vaal Erit I just noticed that the thread is titled " [Issue] Tempest vs Mealstrom v2". Mealstrom, om nom nom nom nom nom. You gotta admit, the Typhoon/Maelstrom does any role better than the Tempest, isn't that worth looking at? I would also like to see this Tempest fitting that can *beat any megathron pilot*. tempest fitting is 800's siege launchers, gyrostabs, plates web, mwd painter, other stuff.....oh and pilot skill Thanks for proving my point. Phoon does plate gank much better and the pest will do less damage than the megat at the same ranges, unless you are trying to make us believe you can stay out of web range of a megat? Pilot skill nothing, the megat is going to catch you and you will be fighting at 5km while webbed. phoon = 5 heavy drones, 4 torps, 4 guns.....tempest = 6guns 2 launchers, 3 heavy drones.... different kind of gank ship. oh and you are supposed to web them back, or keep out of web range. but aparantly in another thread blasters cant hit anything orbiting it (i lol'ed tbh) if anything its ac's that need a dmg increase...as for the tempest itself...its fine
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.02 12:22:00 - [41] Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: Pattern Clarc Originally by: Naomi Knight Lol at this stupid thread. This is not balance ,this is how to make matar the best in everything even in fleet sniping. Nope, even after these changes, it would still have to go to the amarr. Who cares about amarr as apoc is op. Both megathron and rokh would be completly useless compared to the tempest. Matar--> speed and hit and run close range race --> no need to have good sniper fleet bs I don't think that even with 1650mm's, minmatar will be able to hit at 200km well. At there optimal, they would have the worst tracking by orders of magnitude, poor clip size with only 15% more alpha than tachyons on an Abaddon and a 5% damage increase. - As for the tempest, it would be basically the same as current but with more tracking on what is currently the worst tracking, poorest range turrets relative to all the other fleet snipers.
Sensor Boosting	Posted - 2009.02.02 12:29:00 - [42] Edited by: Sensor Boosting on 02/02/2009 12:31:33 Originally by: Pattern Clarc Originally by: Naomi Knight Originally by: Pattern Clarc Originally by: Naomi Knight Lol at this stupid thread. This is not balance ,this is how to make matar the best in everything even in fleet sniping. Nope, even after these changes, it would still have to go to the amarr. Who cares about amarr as apoc is op. Both megathron and rokh would be completly useless compared to the tempest. Matar--> speed and hit and run close range race --> no need to have good sniper fleet bs I don't think that even with 1650mm's, minmatar will be able to hit at 200km well. At there optimal, they would have the worst tracking by orders of magnitude, poor clip size with only 15% more alpha than tachyons on an Abaddon and a 5% damage increase. - As for the tempest, it would be basically the same as current but with more tracking on what is currently the worst tracking, poorest range turrets relative to all the other fleet snipers. you seem to miss out falloff all the time....projectiles have the longest falloff. yeh u dont hit everytime in falloff but atleast u can hit way past optimal, unlike pulse lasers (which have a higher optimal to compensate for their low falloff) seems to me you are slowly turning this into a "my projectiles cant do what lasers are doing so amarr are overpowered" thread
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.02 12:37:00 - [43] Originally by: Sensor Boosting you seem to miss out falloff all the time....projectiles have the longest falloff. yeh u dont hit everytime in falloff but atleast u can hit way past optimal, unlike pulse lasers (which have a higher optimal to compensate for their low falloff) seems to me you are slowly turning this into a "my projectiles cant do what lasers are doing so amarr are overpowered" thread Artillery can't, and won't hit at the optimal ranges, megathrons and rokhs can instead... Happy?
Kayleigh Lothian KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.02 13:31:00 - [44] Yes please, make my large sailboat usefull again.
Machiu Troyan Uninvited Guests Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2009.02.02 16:37:00 - [45] Support ------------------
Riaz Qaadir	Posted - 2009.02.02 17:11:00 - [46] Supporting with my Amarr char so have reason to use my Minny char in BS
TimGascoigne The Graduates Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.02.02 17:43:00 - [47] I am happily the first to say in any crowd that minmatar battleships are broken. However these changes will do nothing to help them. What you need to do is creativity a role for then not new module. After 2 1/2 years in the game I'm not really sure what the role of the tempist was ever meant to be....... Currently the typhoon is a reasonably good NPCing ship and close range BS. However it's split weapons mean that there is no best optimal range for it and alternatives like the Armageddon and Domi have better tank, DPS and alpha. The tempist is good at close range combat with artillery and siege missile launchs . However it is less useful at sniping then a mealstrom and utterly terrible in comparison to other ship in large fleets. The Maelstrom has a high alpha and that's where it needs to excel. Unfortunately it was made as a minmatar mission running ship. At which it is utterly terrible and cannot hit NPCs to justify undocking. This ship is best used as a fleet sniper however it becomes uncompetitive at any reasonable sniping range as its alpha is pathetically small in the shot optimal and long falloff. What actually needs to change: 1. Auto cannons - drastically. I can't remember the last time I saw an AC fit BS for PvE or PvP. Both terrible range and terrible tracking = no hits. 2. Theres no sniper BS. This race needs a sniping battleship that does large alpha traded with low DPS. However this is not in the game at the moment because the alpha cannot reach the target. atm not the tempist nor the mealstrom can be effectively manipulated into this role.
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.02 18:17:00 - [48] Originally by: TimGascoigne I am happily the first to say in any crowd that minmatar battleships are broken. However these changes will do nothing to help them. What you need to do is creativity a role for then not new module. After 2 1/2 years in the game I'm not really sure what the role of the tempist was ever meant to be....... Currently the typhoon is a reasonably good NPCing ship and close range BS. However it's split weapons mean that there is no best optimal range for it and alternatives like the Armageddon and Domi have better tank, DPS and alpha. The tempist is good at close range combat with artillery and siege missile launchs . However it is less useful at sniping then a mealstrom and utterly terrible in comparison to other ship in large fleets. The Maelstrom has a high alpha and that's where it needs to excel. Unfortunately it was made as a minmatar mission running ship. At which it is utterly terrible and cannot hit NPCs to justify undocking. This ship is best used as a fleet sniper however it becomes uncompetitive at any reasonable sniping range as its alpha is pathetically small in the shot optimal and long falloff. What actually needs to change: 1. Auto cannons - drastically. I can't remember the last time I saw an AC fit BS for PvE or PvP. Both terrible range and terrible tracking = no hits. 2. Theres no sniper BS. This race needs a sniping battleship that does large alpha traded with low DPS. However this is not in the game at the moment because the alpha cannot reach the target. atm not the tempist nor the mealstrom can be effectively manipulated into this role. 1st. It's called Tempest, not Tempist. 2nd. Autocannons are totally fine as they are now. It's the Artillery that needs to be looked at. Check out my new flash web page 'Alpha Strike'
herindoors x Priory Of The Lemon Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.02 18:32:00 - [49] NT
Triest Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion	Posted - 2009.02.02 20:36:00 - [50] I have long argued that the Tempest, and large projectiles in general, are in need of some fixing. A third artillery size, and a change to the Tempest/Maelstrom bonuses would go a fair way to fix them. I especially feel like the Maelstrom/Tempest need more to distinguish them for PVP; right now the Maelstrom is just a slower Tempest with more EHP.
Mal 2 Darkness and Chaos Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.02 22:19:00 - [51] Like it
Nagilam Quam Singulari Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.03 04:35:00 - [52] Edited by: Nagilam on 03/02/2009 04:35:12 Any kinda of debate, to boost Minmatar BS's, gets my approval. Although the Tempest would certainly be nicer with that 7th high slot for another AC/Arty.
Kovid Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2009.02.03 09:30:00 - [53]
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.03 10:24:00 - [54] Originally by: TimGascoigne I am happily the first to say in any crowd that minmatar battleships are broken. However these changes will do nothing to help them. What you need to do is creativity a role for then not new module. After 2 1/2 years in the game I'm not really sure what the role of the tempist was ever meant to be....... Currently the typhoon is a reasonably good NPCing ship and close range BS. However it's split weapons mean that there is no best optimal range for it and alternatives like the Armageddon and Domi have better tank, DPS and alpha. The tempist is good at close range combat with artillery and siege missile launchs . However it is less useful at sniping then a mealstrom and utterly terrible in comparison to other ship in large fleets. The Maelstrom has a high alpha and that's where it needs to excel. Unfortunately it was made as a minmatar mission running ship. At which it is utterly terrible and cannot hit NPCs to justify undocking. This ship is best used as a fleet sniper however it becomes uncompetitive at any reasonable sniping range as its alpha is pathetically small in the shot optimal and long falloff. What actually needs to change: 1. Auto cannons - drastically. I can't remember the last time I saw an AC fit BS for PvE or PvP. Both terrible range and terrible tracking = no hits. 2. Theres no sniper BS. This race needs a sniping battleship that does large alpha traded with low DPS. However this is not in the game at the moment because the alpha cannot reach the target. atm not the tempist nor the mealstrom can be effectively manipulated into this role. In the op I try to define the tempests role as anti support skirmisher/sniper or weapons platform similar to the muninn. If you believe AC's are lacking check out this thread
Sensor Boosting	Posted - 2009.02.03 11:28:00 - [55] Originally by: Pattern Clarc In the op I try to define the tempests role as anti support skirmisher/sniper or weapons platform similar to the muninn. If you believe AC's are lacking check out this thread not gonna happen...... no-one wants to get in a battleship just to shoot support.....thats what smaller ships are for. tempest needs to stay how it is u can change the maelstrom if u want....but if u change the shield boost bonus, the minmatar mission runners are gonna hate you
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.03 11:34:00 - [56] Originally by: Sensor Boosting Originally by: Pattern Clarc In the op I try to define the tempests role as anti support skirmisher/sniper or weapons platform similar to the muninn. If you believe AC's are lacking check out this thread not gonna happen...... no-one wants to get in a battleship just to shoot support.....thats what smaller ships are for. tempest needs to stay how it is u can change the maelstrom if u want....but if u change the shield boost bonus, the minmatar mission runners are gonna hate you Believe it or not, but there are styles of game play that exist right now that you may be completely unaccustomed to, but that's ok. I'm pretty sure they'd be happy with the passive tanking a/c sponge of doom that 25% to base shields would give.
Sensor Boosting	Posted - 2009.02.03 11:41:00 - [57] Originally by: Pattern Clarc Originally by: Sensor Boosting Originally by: Pattern Clarc In the op I try to define the tempests role as anti support skirmisher/sniper or weapons platform similar to the muninn. If you believe AC's are lacking check out this thread not gonna happen...... no-one wants to get in a battleship just to shoot support.....thats what smaller ships are for. tempest needs to stay how it is u can change the maelstrom if u want....but if u change the shield boost bonus, the minmatar mission runners are gonna hate you Believe it or not, but there are styles of game play that exist right now that you may be completely unaccustomed to, but that's ok. I'm pretty sure they'd be happy with the passive tanking a/c sponge of doom that 25% to base shields would give. ahh so just cos u want to use a ship for sniping, you want everyone to? i get you now
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.03 11:51:00 - [58] Originally by: Sensor Boosting Originally by: Pattern Clarc Originally by: Sensor Boosting Originally by: Pattern Clarc In the op I try to define the tempests role as anti support skirmisher/sniper or weapons platform similar to the muninn. If you believe AC's are lacking check out this thread not gonna happen...... no-one wants to get in a battleship just to shoot support.....thats what smaller ships are for. tempest needs to stay how it is u can change the maelstrom if u want....but if u change the shield boost bonus, the minmatar mission runners are gonna hate you Believe it or not, but there are styles of game play that exist right now that you may be completely unaccustomed to, but that's ok. I'm pretty sure they'd be happy with the passive tanking a/c sponge of doom that 25% to base shields would give. ahh so just cos u want to use a ship for sniping, you want everyone to? i get you now Personally? I have 3 races battleship to lvl 5 and if I really wanted my favourite ship to be boosted, i'd be asking the CCP for a 7th low to the Hyperion. There's an issue with the Typhoon/Tempest/Mealstrom and there roles and this is the best solution I can come up with without screwing up balance. Now are you done trolling this thread yet? ____ My Blog Is Awesome
Sensor Boosting	Posted - 2009.02.03 11:58:00 - [59] Quote: Personally? I have 3 races battleship to lvl 5? congrats. so do quite a few people..... typhoon - turret/missile/drone gank ship .... can fit a nice armor tank on it tempest - turret gank ship/sniper , can fit decent plate setup on maelstrom - mission runner/sniper/close gank sorry the only ship role that needs changing is the maelstrom to be more of a sniper rather than a close ganker.
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.03 12:16:00 - [60] Originally by: Sensor Boosting Quote: Personally? I have 3 races battleship to lvl 5? congrats. so do quite a few people..... typhoon - turret/missile/drone gank ship .... can fit a nice armor tank on it tempest - turret gank ship/sniper , can fit decent plate setup on maelstrom - mission runner/sniper/close gank sorry the only ship role that needs changing is the maelstrom to be more of a sniper rather than a close ganker. I think you've just proved my point. The tempest has roles which overlap with each of it's racial peers. In every case, it's a poorer alternative to them, decent plate setup? With 6 lows? Ganking with turrets? Who cares when the phoon does the most dps of any bs in the game, and the mealstrom has more turrets and a better active tank. The tempest is pig in the middle i'm sorry to say, with the tracking bonus, and a new tier of artillery, I ope to provide a clear distinction between it and the maelstrom for sniping with little changing as far as close quarters is concerned.
Sensor Boosting	Posted - 2009.02.03 12:59:00 - [61] Originally by: Pattern Clarc Originally by: Sensor Boosting Quote: Personally? I have 3 races battleship to lvl 5? congrats. so do quite a few people..... typhoon - turret/missile/drone gank ship .... can fit a nice armor tank on it tempest - turret gank ship/sniper , can fit decent plate setup on maelstrom - mission runner/sniper/close gank sorry the only ship role that needs changing is the maelstrom to be more of a sniper rather than a close ganker. I think you've just proved my point. The tempest has roles which overlap with each of it's racial peers. In every case, it's a poorer alternative to them, decent plate setup? With 6 lows? Ganking with turrets? Who cares when the phoon does the most dps of any bs in the game, and the mealstrom has more turrets and a better active tank. The tempest is pig in the middle i'm sorry to say, with the tracking bonus, and a new tier of artillery, I ope to provide a clear distinction between it and the maelstrom for sniping with little changing as far as close quarters is concerned. seriously have you never flown a plated gank tempest before? thats just like saying hyperion and mega are the same....lets change them.....same with the geddon and abaddon.....all dmg ships.....but no we cant have more of them can we....so lets change everything shall we? maelstrom is the only one that needs changing, as its the one that overlaps the other 2 ships roles.
Gabriel Karade Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.03 13:33:00 - [62] Edited by: Gabriel Karade on 03/02/2009 13:33:28 Interesting idea, the Tempest does need some work and the 1650's give the minnies some of that alpha 'oompf' they've been missing of late.
TriDane Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.03 14:16:00 - [63] i didnt read it all but if this makes my sniper nano tempest better i support!
devil666devil	Posted - 2009.02.03 14:17:00 - [64] Edited by: devil666devil on 03/02/2009 14:17:13 ill support on my random alt aswell Tridane
Marn Prestoc Minmatar Queens of the Stone Age Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2009.02.03 16:04:00 - [65] Along with your changes I would: I'd increase PG of Tempest so could fit 1400s+mwd without RCU like the Megathron, hence its 1400 performance vs Maelstrom would improve but still 1650 would be the Maelstrom's strength. The extra fitting would also help a little bit in close range but would only upgrade a gun or two. Maelstrom I think the HP bonus with 7 mids - 4 lows is possibly to strong, mids for a shield tanker are a lot better and 4 lows is perfect (3 damage mods + dc). For example the 7th mid could be used for boost amp hence giving it back the shield boost it had, with the lose of a low that would only be a pds/nano/istab low value mod traded for more HP. 7-4 with no tanking bonus would be balanced like 6-5 with tank bonus imo. Hence scrap the HP bonus and go for something else although i'm not sure atm (slap whoever says TP bonus).
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.03 16:32:00 - [66] Originally by: Marn Prestoc Along with your changes I would: I'd increase PG of Tempest so could fit 1400s+mwd without RCU like the Megathron, hence its 1400 performance vs Maelstrom would improve but still 1650 would be the Maelstrom's strength. The extra fitting would also help a little bit in close range but would only upgrade a gun or two. Maelstrom I think the HP bonus with 7 mids - 4 lows is possibly to strong, mids for a shield tanker are a lot better and 4 lows is perfect (3 damage mods + dc). For example the 7th mid could be used for boost amp hence giving it back the shield boost it had, with the lose of a low that would only be a pds/nano/istab low value mod traded for more HP. 7-4 with no tanking bonus would be balanced like 6-5 with tank bonus imo. Hence scrap the HP bonus and go for something else although i'm not sure atm (slap whoever says TP bonus). What about the base HP bonus with the current slot configuration? And if so, a 25% (1 lse) or 50% (2 lse)?
Cyber Templar	Posted - 2009.02.03 16:33:00 - [67] Nice idea Pattern It's about time someone thought seriously about the future roles of the Minmatar "Lost Battleship" (Tempest). Also it's about time that the Maelstrom could be used as a proper sniper rather than just a second rate Megathron wannabe. You got my vote on this
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:20:00 - [68] Originally by: Cyber Templar Nice idea Pattern It's about time someone thought seriously about the future roles of the Minmatar "Lost Battleship" (Tempest). Also it's about time that the Maelstrom could be used as a proper sniper rather than just a second rate Megathron wannabe. You got my vote on this You forgot to check the 'Check here if you want to give your support to the idea/discussion going on' thing before you posted. Check out my new flash web page 'Dark Paradise'
Marn Prestoc Queens of the Stone Age Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:35:00 - [69] Edited by: Marn Prestoc on 03/02/2009 17:36:42 Originally by: Pattern Clarc What about the base HP bonus with the current slot configuration? And if so, a 25% (1 lse) or 50% (2 lse)? Sure 6-5 layout with a base HP increasing bonus would be great. 10k with skills, LSE increases to 13281 so a bonus to equal a LSE would be 33%. So probably 7.5% base shield HP per level would be best (with nerfing of recharge so at level 4 or 5 its same as currently). So gives a little more than a LSE in a 7th mid without losing the 5th low, which is low value close range but higher value for sniping (rcu/pds without losing 3gyro and dc or a TE which is better than TC). p.s. Remebered to push Support this Topic button this time -
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:46:00 - [70] Originally by: Marn Prestoc Edited by: Marn Prestoc on 03/02/2009 17:36:42 Originally by: Pattern Clarc What about the base HP bonus with the current slot configuration? And if so, a 25% (1 lse) or 50% (2 lse)? Sure 6-5 layout with a base HP increasing bonus would be great. 10k with skills, LSE increases to 13281 so a bonus to equal a LSE would be 33%. So probably 7.5% base shield HP per level would be best (with nerfing of recharge so at level 4 or 5 its same as currently). So gives a little more than a LSE in a 7th mid without losing the 5th low, which is low value close range but higher value for sniping (rcu/pds without losing 3gyro and dc or a TE which is better than TC). p.s. Remebered to push Support this Topic button this time And done ____ My Blog Is Awesome
Pesadel0 Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.02.03 20:53:00 - [71] I approve :D
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.03 22:27:00 - [72] How about you keep one of them an AC boat and one of them an Arty boat. What is the insanity that makes you want both the Maelstrom and Tempest to be AC and Arty boats? Aren't you always complaining about how terrible it is that the ships are not specialized? All you're going to do is make one of them suck and the other one be better. A Mael with more hit points would be a fine sniper in its own right without adding another size of artillery(could use more fitting and a smaller signature as well). The Pest will never be a good sniper but is currently in a niche that your changes do not fix except to make fitting it for its intended goal ******edly easy. Just because the Mega is the rail sniper for gallente and the Hyp is the blaster boat does not mean that the Pest needs to have fitting comparable to the Gallente rail sniper. How about this: You increase the pests drone bay to 300 and its bandwidth to 100. This gives it versatility in drone choice as it has versatility in med slots and in high slots. This is a slight damage boost and a large utility boost as different drones for different things can be carried. Other than changing the armor/shield values you do nothing else. You do nothing but increase the fitting on the maelstrom such that it can fit 1400mm arties an mwd and an LSE with locus rigs without a fitting mod.(to start). Its not like its PG bound on the autocannon side anyway, so you're not changing its tank/gank role in that manner at all. But what you are doing is allowing it to more efficiently fit for tank, range, and damage. Which it is actually pretty good at(minus the range) all things considered.
Quark Fireborn	Posted - 2009.02.04 09:32:00 - [73] I 100% support this... nothing like trainin training training to get in ships to only have them nerfed! go pattern
Reynolds Third Return Inc. Blue Sun Trust	Posted - 2009.02.04 12:38:00 - [74] supporting this
Nozomi nrvqsr Les chevaliers de l'ordre Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.02.04 14:59:00 - [75] Edited by: Nozomi nrvqsr on 04/02/2009 14:59:12 Tempest of love.
Dark Flare 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.02.04 18:17:00 - [76] Supporting this. Also LaVista I'm not entirely sure you've ever tried flying a Tempest against a Mega if you think the Tempest can beat the Mega 1v1 "if the pilot is good enough". The Mega has to be badly fitted at the moment pretty much. I did a load of testing on SiSi with myself in a Tempest (Battleship 5, T2 Large Autos, full Slave set, Strong Exile Booster) vs a Megathron pilot (Battleship 4, T1 Large Guns, no slaves, no exile) and lost every time. I tried plated, I tried active repped. I tried gank, I tried full tank. I tried Ewar (TDs). The Tempest just can't compete with the Mega.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.04 19:41:00 - [77] Edited by: Goumindong on 04/02/2009 19:41:42 Originally by: Dark Flare myself in a Tempest (Battleship 5, T2 Large Autos, full Slave set, Strong Exile Booster) vs a Megathron pilot (Battleship 4, T1 Large Guns, no slaves, no exile) and lost every time. You're a bad liar or a worse pilot.
Dark Flare Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.02.04 21:21:00 - [78] Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 04/02/2009 19:41:42 Originally by: Dark Flare myself in a Tempest (Battleship 5, T2 Large Autos, full Slave set, Strong Exile Booster) vs a Megathron pilot (Battleship 4, T1 Large Guns, no slaves, no exile) and lost every time. You're a bad liar or a worse pilot. Can you even fly Minmatar?
NightmareX Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.04 21:51:00 - [79] Edited by: NightmareX on 04/02/2009 21:53:49 Originally by: Dark Flare Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 04/02/2009 19:41:42 Originally by: Dark Flare myself in a Tempest (Battleship 5, T2 Large Autos, full Slave set, Strong Exile Booster) vs a Megathron pilot (Battleship 4, T1 Large Guns, no slaves, no exile) and lost every time. You're a bad liar or a worse pilot. Can you even fly Minmatar? I fly Tempest most of my times. I'm a 95% Minmatar user. And i can say this for sure. Your totally wrong about the Tempest Dark Flare. 3-4 months ago on sisi, i was testing out the Tempest to see what it really was good for. Well i have used the Tempest for years, but i just did a very good test of the Tempest there with the close range setup. This is the ships i was fighting on sisi that time. I have been fighting 14x Megathrons and won over 10. Been fighting 5x Raven's and won over 4. 3x Typhoon's and won over 2. 4x Armageddon's and won over all. 2x Apoc's and won over them both. 1x Abaddon and won over it. 1x Tempest and won over it. 2x Maelstrom's and won over both. 1x Dominix, lost to it and 1x Hyperion and lost to that one to. So after my results that time, it's very good tbh. This was also after the web and speed nerf. I wouldn't call that for crap results Dark. If you just can use your brain a bit, your Tempest is more of a pain to others. It's more dangerous than it looks, or after what the stats shows.
Dark Flare Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.02.04 21:52:00 - [80] Well, the only thing that could be erroneous about my test is that it was pre-web nerf. So it was impossible to dictate range.
Sensor Boosting	Posted - 2009.02.04 21:52:00 - [81] Originally by: Dark Flare Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 04/02/2009 19:41:42 Originally by: Dark Flare myself in a Tempest (Battleship 5, T2 Large Autos, full Slave set, Strong Exile Booster) vs a Megathron pilot (Battleship 4, T1 Large Guns, no slaves, no exile) and lost every time. You're a bad liar or a worse pilot. Can you even fly Minmatar? LOL i have to agree with the goon guy, ive had a navy mega in structure before i died, and i had a hurricane on me aswell as the navy mega. and no the mega wasnt poorly fitted
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2009.02.04 21:56:00 - [82] Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 04/02/2009 22:00:16 what minmatar also needs is: tracking enhancer also affecting falloff, you can tracking disrupt falloff but not boost it? also it would be nice if the tempst could fit 140mm arty like the mega fits rails, and had a bit more locking range would not hurt. if you boost the tempest, do not forget the fleet version ;P
Dark Flare Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.02.04 22:02:00 - [83] Originally by: Sensor Boosting Originally by: Dark Flare Originally by: Goumindong Edited by: Goumindong on 04/02/2009 19:41:42 Originally by: Dark Flare myself in a Tempest (Battleship 5, T2 Large Autos, full Slave set, Strong Exile Booster) vs a Megathron pilot (Battleship 4, T1 Large Guns, no slaves, no exile) and lost every time. You're a bad liar or a worse pilot. Can you even fly Minmatar? LOL i have to agree with the goon guy, ive had a navy mega in structure before i died, and i had a hurricane on me aswell as the navy mega. and no the mega wasnt poorly fitted Bet he wasn't carrying Null. A Mega does more dps than a Tempest, and has more EHP, and if it wants can field a better active tank.
Sensor Boosting	Posted - 2009.02.04 22:13:00 - [84] Originally by: Dark Flare Bet he wasn't carrying Null. A Mega does more dps than a Tempest, and has more EHP, and if it wants can field a better active tank. not many people carry null bcos they either dont have the cargo for it or dont use it bcos they think its crap. but yes mega does have more EHP but doesnt mean the tempest cant win against it. its all down to the pilots skill
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.04 22:46:00 - [85] Originally by: Dark Flare Bet he wasn't carrying Null. A Mega does more dps than a Tempest, and has more EHP, and if it wants can field a better active tank. Not the mega you claimed. In fact the pest you claimed you were flying did more raw DPS, more real DPS, with longer range, more utility, better tank, and better raw hit points than the Megathron. I won't say a pest will always win against an equally skilled and fitted mega(PS, fly A hyperion, they're better in every way), and i also won't say it will always lose, but i will say that if you, in a slaved, exiled, tech 2 gunned, bs 5 tempest can't beat a tech 1 gunned implantless Mega then something is up.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.04 22:49:00 - [86] Originally by: Dark Flare Bet he wasn't carrying Null. A Mega does more dps than a Tempest, and has more EHP, and if it wants can field a better active tank. Not the mega you claimed. In fact the pest you claimed you were flying did more raw DPS, more real DPS, with longer range, more utility, better tank, and better raw hit points than the Megathron. I won't say a pest will always win against an equally skilled and fitted mega(PS, fly A hyperion, they're better in every way), and i also won't say it will always lose, but i will say that if you, in a slaved, exiled, tech 2 gunned, bs 5 tempest can't beat a tech 1 gunned implantless Mega then something is up.
Ymrir Cog Ex Machina	Posted - 2009.02.05 07:23:00 - [87] The 'pest used to have mad alpha, and it was cool. Then BS hp was boosted :( It makes do as a fleet ship, but is inferior to the competitors. It's terrible for theorycraft solo, and inferior to other ships for practical solo. Oh yeah and autocannons suxxor. Same falloff on different tiers, but a useless optimal increase? Seriously? -- Ad Astra
Raquel Trotter Trotters Independent Trading	Posted - 2009.02.05 09:03:00 - [88] Totally support this... Stop hating minnie CCP
JordanParey Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.02.05 10:33:00 - [89] changing drone bandwidth would be sweet =) I <3 my Tempest already and I am looking into a Mael =)
Zibu 81 ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.06 09:46:00 - [90] I'd rather go with something like this: Tempest: 5% rof bonus per level 10% falloff bonus add drones or something to compensate for dps loss Maelstrom: give it an apoc like treatment: + x% shields as base stat (and not as per BS level) 5% rof bonus per level (or damage) 7.5% tracking (or optimal) per level Now you have Tempest as AC boat, and Mael as a proper sniper. The way you suggest it you'll have Tempest as a shot range sniper with good tracking and Mael as a long range sniper, that couldn't track a MWD'ing titan, while both would still perform nicely as AC boats.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.02.06 13:32:00 - [91] Originally by: Zibu 81 I'd rather go with something like this: Tempest: 5% rof bonus per level 10% falloff bonus add drones or something to compensate for dps loss Maelstrom: give it an apoc like treatment: + x% shields as base stat (and not as per BS level) 5% rof bonus per level (or damage) 7.5% tracking (or optimal) per level Now you have Tempest as AC boat, and Mael as a proper sniper. The way you suggest it you'll have Tempest as a shot range sniper with good tracking and Mael as a long range sniper, that couldn't track a MWD'ing titan, while both would still perform nicely as AC boats. That would work except the additional :"+ x% shields as base stat (and not as per BS level)" this should not happen or give my rokh a built in resist bonus and change resist bonus to another optimal bonus^^ or just a flat out 30% cap increase like for the apoc
irion felpamy HellJumpers Corp United For 0rder	Posted - 2009.02.06 14:11:00 - [92] I'm not sure these changes are the right way to go, mission running with a maelstrom means a boost bonus is fine. keeps it different and will not be a problem if one of the other minnie ships can be used when its not apropriate. Tempest needs something. People don't bring BS to a gang for a slot of unbonused ewar, 6 lows and less armour than a raven is not a good start. By all means keep it different to othe BS but make it good at something. For all those people who keep saying the tempest is fine if you know how to fly it I say.... The probe is the best fleet ship in the game you just need to know how to use it.
NoMercy uk Quam Singulari Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.06 14:32:00 - [93] Supported
Sensor Boosting	Posted - 2009.02.06 17:49:00 - [94] Originally by: irion felpamy The probe is the best fleet ship in the game you just need to know how to use it. it certainly is, its an amazing cyno ship....
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2009.02.07 11:44:00 - [95] Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 07/02/2009 11:45:23 minmatar needs a change. those three things I would like to be changed: 1. minmatar is the speed & agility race, and yet there are some ships from other races that are lighter and faster, e.g. compare claw mass to crusader, crusader ends with more speed and more agility in the end. 2. you can tracking disrupt falloff with range scripts but you cannot boost it with tracking enhancer using a ranges script, serious flaw in design. 3. the bs line of minmatar is the weakest ingame in my opinion, the phoon is nice but it uses drones and missiles. the less base dmg of ammo and falloff mechanis makes it worse. I think the falloff mechanis needs a change, the dmg drop should not be linear and the large ammo could need a raise by 1 point of dmg. change point 1 & 2 and I think those BS will be much better then.
frau bock	Posted - 2009.02.07 19:02:00 - [96] i suport..since i just cross trained minimitar and had a maelstrom now
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.07 19:12:00 - [97] Originally by: frau bock i suport..since i just cross trained minimitar and had a maelstrom now Originally by: NoMercy uk Supported Please guys, when you support a thread, click on the "Check here if you want to give your support to the idea/discussion going on" tick box above the post reply button.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.02.07 21:01:00 - [98] Originally by: Pattern Clarc Please guys, when you support a thread, click on the "Check here if you want to give your support to the idea/discussion going on" tick box above the post reply button. Yeah, but looks like this thread doesnt need support,nor ppl wanna support it^^
Elysarian dudetruck corp	Posted - 2009.02.08 16:07:00 - [99] Fully supported ===================================== It smells of spoon! =====================================
Reatu Krentor Minmatar Duragon Pioneer Group GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.12 04:29:00 - [100] Tempest is cheaper to use as a sniper, practically the same dps/alpha as a maelstrom(6.667% more dps/alpha from a maelstrom), larger cargo bay(more room for stuff) and frankly its bonuses are a minmatar trait. I wouldn't like the tempest changed(yes, this isn't really based on a logical argument) The maelstrom was born from the need for a gunship for caldari. All tier 3's were supposed to act as the sniper for the race initially(Abaddon and Hyperion deviated from this). This intended role for the Maelstrom is reflected in the grid capacity, cargo bay, speed, targeting range... Having a rate of fire bonus and a shield boost bonus both detract from this sniper concept. I'd propose changing the Maelstrom to give it the main thing that it needs to differentiate it from the Tempest as a sniper, volley damage. Instead of having a rate of fire bonus on the maelstrom, make it a damage bonus, thereby increasing the volley damage while retaining most of the dps potential. As a bonus this also makes the Maelstrom more efficient with ammo when using autocannons, a good thing considering the smaller cargo bay. For the other bonus that detracts from the sniper role, shield boost amount, I have not really given it much thought. Perhaps make it also apply a 7.5% increase to shield hp on extenders or even just general shield hp increase(though that might be considered as being a 3rd bonus, idk)? In closing, I would support asking the devs to reprioritise overall ship balance issues(there are other ships that could also use a look, lachesis anyone), but your proposals for Tempest and Maelstrom, I don't like so this particular thread won't get my support. PS. I should prolly note that I'm max-specced for minmatar before you disregard this as an amarr defensive whine. -- stuff --
Mysteriax Scoopex	Posted - 2009.02.12 12:19:00 - [101] I support this minmatar needs a sniper the range of the minmatar sniper is horrible and most FCs dont wanna bring minmatar snipers if they can be avoided. Also the pest needed a clear role.
Efrim Black Gallente Apellon	Posted - 2009.02.12 18:59:00 - [102] Edited by: Efrim Black on 12/02/2009 18:59:40 Originally by: Pattern Clarc Everyone wants/uses the tempest as a cheap sniper although the maelstrom is a little superior. Maelstrom 5% rof per level, 7.5% base shield HP per level 8/6/5 slots. Loses 25mb of bandwidth (down to 75m3) Sorry I'll keep my drone bandwidth + active tanking boost. I like the idea of building a 1000+ dps AC setup with my maelstrom, and I would never support a buffing of the tempest, since it does just fine being a cheap alternative in most situations. The only buff to Tempest that seems passable would be the power grid buff. Beyond that you're just pushing the tempest towards the Maelstrom, and then why have 3 BS tiers? Not supported.
Mysteriax Scoopex	Posted - 2009.02.12 19:17:00 - [103] Originally by: Efrim Black Edited by: Efrim Black on 12/02/2009 18:59:40 Originally by: Pattern Clarc Everyone wants/uses the tempest as a cheap sniper although the maelstrom is a little superior. Maelstrom 5% rof per level, 7.5% base shield HP per level 8/6/5 slots. Loses 25mb of bandwidth (down to 75m3) Sorry I'll keep my drone bandwidth + active tanking boost. I like the idea of building a 1000+ dps AC setup with my maelstrom, and I would never support a buffing of the tempest, since it does just fine being a cheap alternative in most situations. The only buff to Tempest that seems passable would be the power grid buff. Beyond that you're just pushing the tempest towards the Maelstrom, and then why have 3 BS tiers? Not supported. Are you friggin kidding me. You wanna keep the useless shieldboost buff? why!! 1000 ac damage is ridiculously bad if you compare it with a 1400 dps typhoon. Also the only thing thats 'cheaper' with the tempest is the initial price after insurance comes back there is not much difference with a mael. The tempest is crap has no role. So people say yeah but its versatile. No versatile are the typhoon and dominix not a tempest. Horrible sniper if you compare it with the rest. Horrible Mission boat, tracking is needed and dps and tank is subpar. Close range PvP, Bad tank again to little low slots. DPS sup par can fit 2 neuts but so can every other BS. Remote rep is exactly the same use a typhoon if you really wanna use a minnie ship better in almost every way then a pest. Now what can it do? But I has killed megathrons in a pest. Yeah prolly the worst fit ever or it was done on sisi with you having all slave implants and the opponents didnt or they where screwing around. Also the shield hp bonus is far far superior then the shield boost bonus for pvp.
Kelbesque Crystalis	Posted - 2009.02.13 07:06:00 - [104] Supported
Yorda Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.13 07:14:00 - [105] Originally by: Mysteriax Originally by: Efrim Black Edited by: Efrim Black on 12/02/2009 18:59:40 Originally by: Pattern Clarc Everyone wants/uses the tempest as a cheap sniper although the maelstrom is a little superior. Maelstrom 5% rof per level, 7.5% base shield HP per level 8/6/5 slots. Loses 25mb of bandwidth (down to 75m3) Sorry I'll keep my drone bandwidth + active tanking boost. I like the idea of building a 1000+ dps AC setup with my maelstrom, and I would never support a buffing of the tempest, since it does just fine being a cheap alternative in most situations. The only buff to Tempest that seems passable would be the power grid buff. Beyond that you're just pushing the tempest towards the Maelstrom, and then why have 3 BS tiers? Not supported. Are you friggin kidding me. You wanna keep the useless shieldboost buff? why!! 1000 ac damage is ridiculously bad if you compare it with a 1400 dps typhoon. Also the only thing thats 'cheaper' with the tempest is the initial price after insurance comes back there is not much difference with a mael. The tempest is crap has no role. So people say yeah but its versatile. No versatile are the typhoon and dominix not a tempest. Horrible sniper if you compare it with the rest. Horrible Mission boat, tracking is needed and dps and tank is subpar. Close range PvP, Bad tank again to little low slots. DPS sup par can fit 2 neuts but so can every other BS. Remote rep is exactly the same use a typhoon if you really wanna use a minnie ship better in almost every way then a pest. Now what can it do? But I has killed megathrons in a pest. Yeah prolly the worst fit ever or it was done on sisi with you having all slave implants and the opponents didnt or they where screwing around. Also the shield hp bonus is far far superior then the shield boost bonus for pvp. I agree with him, Raw dps isn't everything. The maelstrom is an incredible close range, small gang ship capable of tanking ~1000dps and dealing out 800with guns alone (crossing 1k with drones). The phoon might deal more damage but the mael is going to tank considerably more. Minmatar bses really do need a look at, as the tempest really is worse than the mael in every way apart from the price but I don't think these changes are right. ---- 06:36 11Thol that we cannot do this anymore 06:36 11Thol we're not no.1 06:36 11Thol we're not best of the best 06:36 11Thol we're average with alot of titans 06:36 11Thol ****ing wake up
Destovel	Posted - 2009.02.13 08:50:00 - [106] supported.
Naomi Knight Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.02.13 09:36:00 - [107] Just fly the vaga.
b0ristheblade	Posted - 2009.02.14 02:45:00 - [108] supported
Jason Edwards Internet Tough Guy	Posted - 2009.02.14 06:40:00 - [109] Quote: 1650mm Artillery there are 1650mm arties? i dont get it. Quote: The maelstrom also has a ** tone of extra power grid, a fat tank and in close range situations, it trumps the tempest 7 times out of 8. I wouldnt say so. They are different boats. It's like comparing raven to rokh. Quote:** Enter New Tempest * 7.5% damage per level, 5% tracking speed per level. so you want the tempest to have less dps? but more tracking? Quote: * Increased drone bay to 125m3 and bandwidth to 125 So tempest hurts already because of 6 turrets-4launchers. You also want to put more drone training into it? Is the typhoon in need of friends? Seriously though? why not just boost projectile's tracking? Quote: Maelstrom 5% rof per level, 7.5% base shield HP per level 8/6/5 slots. Loses 25mb of bandwidth (down to 75m3) now this is the real boost. If you compare rokh to mael. The tanks are 100% identical. Except mael has to have an active booster to be the same. Which in this eHP era... So ya... the base shield is really effective. I fear though that 7.5% is too much. Then again. I just crunch the numbers and it brings the mael right in line with the abaddon... except the abaddon is super cap dependant while maelstrom could almost laugh the cap away. Add a vulture and you will be epic pwwwn. 5% per lvl would be more reasonable.
Kweel Nakashyn Minmatar Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.02.14 07:32:00 - [110] Unsuported. The Tempest have a range problem. It can't shoot at 200, and can't lock at 200. Making it an anti support ship need a serious work with their sensor before willing any change.
RedSplat Heretic Army	Posted - 2009.02.16 15:51:00 - [111] [i] FOR PONY
SK Rooster No Trademark	Posted - 2009.02.16 17:21:00 - [112] Originally by: Pattern Clarc Why this is Balanced? Why are ravens, which are able to do 1100 dps with any damage type out to 30km balanced? maybe because they can only do full damage with 3x painters, try again
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2009.02.16 22:08:00 - [113] Originally by: Kweel Nakashyn Unsuported. The Tempest have a range problem. It can't shoot at 200, and can't lock at 200. Making it an anti support ship need a serious work with their sensor before willing any change. Tempest doesn't have a range problem, Artillery has a range problem since its same for any ship that uses them, hence 1650mm arty to give added range. The designed Tempest in the proposal really goes back to 2004 times where artillery was a powerful weapon because tracking didn't exist and hence it could "hit and run". Originally by: SK Rooster Originally by: Pattern Clarc Why this is Balanced? Why are ravens, which are able to do 1100 dps with any damage type out to 30km balanced? maybe because they can only do full damage with 3x painters, try again /me notes down to say that everytime someone says Typhoon is great. Plus its 1 TP and Web vs a BS target, vs smaller you have same problems as turrets do. That 1 sentence is the only thing you could reply to out of the whole post? ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2009.02.16 22:29:00 - [114] Edited by: Tzar''rim on 16/02/2009 22:31:19 I'm not convinced about the OP's proposal. To me the Temp is an autocannon boat (IF the Mael gets changed into a sniper, that is). And because of the lousy optimal the damage at medium ranges is crappy. This is ofcourse the same for a Gallente BS but that one makes up for it with increased dps and tank. The whole 'minnie is agile and fast' is completely lost on BS size ships and that is the real problem imo; CCP has to realize that racial designs might not work well for all shipsizes. This is ofcourse nothing new and it's actually a good thing as it keeps things diverse, but when it gets to the point where a whole (and important) shipsize simply doesn't work for a specific race then things are wrong. Ofcourse I understand that 7.5% damage and increased tracking does help a lot but that still doesn't make up for the 'have to get in close to get some damage done', and then you find that it's damage lacks and it's tank isn't up to par either. I'd much rather get something like this; 5% to projectile damage 10% to falloff range 125 m3 dronebay/bandwith This way, while not making the ship 'beefier' it can now actually use a tactic by trying to keep stuff at range a bit, coupled with 2 heavy neuts that would work well. The Mael simply should lose the shield bonus and replace that with a 5% optimal range and to make it less 'short range' lower it's dronebay.
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.17 00:29:00 - [115] Coming soon ____ My Blog Is Awesome
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2009.02.17 01:51:00 - [116] Edited by: Tzar''rim on 17/02/2009 01:55:56 Reading through that post; there's 2 ways of solving 'the problem'; 1) change projectiles alltogether 2) accept the racial pros/cons but actually get the ships some decent bonuses. I very much like option #2, as I'm not really into a 'spreadsheetlike' solution like making projectiles fall inbetween lasers and hybrids. Would make for a very dull world if every problem was tackled that way. Funnily enough, as I see it, the main problem isn't "what happens if we run into a mega/hype" but rather "what options do we have left against a Geddon/Abaddon". It's LASERS that need changing, they really need to lose their mad optimals or their high dps. Once those are 'normalised' a bit then changing Minnie ships bonuses to add a % falloff would make sense. But as said before, minnie lacks tank and dps and has to make up for that with... uhm... yeah. It can outrange a Gallente but against Amarr is has no other option than to use it's Neuts, which ofcourse work but in this age of passive EHP tanking meaning the cap booster only needs to feed the guns that's not really working too well. Perhaps the issue is with cap boosters making cap dependancy less of a problem and thus making capless dps less of a boon. Dunno. - edit - On the Muninn specifically; It's down on dps, range and locking speed compared to a Zealot (if used in it's sniper role). But the thing is the extra high slot allows for a cloak and the small dronebay allows for ECM drones giving it some survivability. I rather like that.
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.17 02:17:00 - [117] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 17/02/2009 02:25:30 Originally by: Tzar'rim I very much like option #2, as I'm not really into a 'spreadsheetlike' solution like making projectiles fall inbetween lasers and hybrids. Would make for a very dull world if every problem was tackled that way. With the frigs and the cruisers, fall off can sort of still be used that way, (as long as your not fighting lasers) because your ability to move around and the generally reduced number of targets you face in one instance is far fewer. Battleships is another kettle of fish. Although boring, adding autocannon optimal range it's probably the most balanced way of dealing with large autocannons. And with an increased drone bay, alpha and tracking, the tempest restores some long lost versatility and performance in the weapons department. Originally by: Tzar'rim Funnily enough, as I see it, the main problem isn't "what happens if we run into a mega/hype" but rather "what options do we have left against a Geddon/Abaddon". It's LASERS that need changing, they really need to lose their mad optimals or their high dps. Once those are 'normalised' a bit then changing Minnie ships bonuses to add a % falloff would make sense. But do you really want to undo several years of amarr needs umph whining? Originally by: Tzar'rim But as said before, minnie lacks tank and dps and has to make up for that with... uhm... yeah. It can outrange a Gallente but against Amarr is has no other option than to use it's Neuts, which ofcourse work but in this age of passive EHP tanking meaning the cap booster only needs to feed the guns that's not really working too well. Ideally, you'd wanna get underneath the lasers, using your agility and improved tracking (add situational tracking distruptor) to your advantage, however, autocannons hit supprisingly poorly at optimal, and the tempest isn't quite agile enough nor tough enough to be roasted before getting there. In realistic situations, the damage output at fall off just doesn't make any sense and isn't ever optimal, and thats what I hope you change with those changes. Originally by: Tzar'rim On the Muninn specifically; It's down on dps, range and locking speed compared to a Zealot (if used in it's sniper role). But the thing is the extra high slot allows for a cloak and the small dronebay allows for ECM drones giving it some survivability. I rather like that. The muninn has 2 spare high slots, it loses one for an extra low, you can still cloak. Warrier ii drones are better than ec-300's and in either case the deimos can carry both sets, deal about the same dps with rails, (much less alpha though) with speed, range and tracking pretty much even. For a ship that can't do much else, swaping one of it's two spare high slot for a low is a fair solution ____ My Blog Is Awesome
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2009.02.17 02:35:00 - [118] Edited by: Tzar''rim on 17/02/2009 02:35:10 If you give large autos an optimal between blasters and pulses, then add tracking and a bigger dronebay and the already available signature advantage and 2 heavy neuts then you create a monster. I woulf fly Tempests more often then but I feel it would be too much. I still think that the problem is Amarr/lasers, trying to make the Tempest workable against Amarr BS by giving it brute force is, imo, the wrong way. On the Muninn, yeah I failed on the extra slot but I'd rather add another midslot giving it more sniping versatility (sensor booster or tracking comp). Adding it as a low slot would make it into a short range armoring tanking autocannon boat. Thing is ofcourse that the armor resists for minnie T2 fail hard. Adding a midslot could make it into a broadsword-like short range setup if you'd want that.
Maraleith Gallente The Culture Holding Corporation	Posted - 2009.02.17 15:26:00 - [119] Guys Please stop with all the requests for change for minnie ships. The race is ruined. It has no flavor and it has no place in Eve anymore. Out tanked, outsped and out ganked by every other battleship, the Tempest is simply not a viable pvp ship any more. Other players can screech in disagreement but the reality is when an FC says he doesnot really like to see Tempests in a fleet fight; you know its the end of the line. CCP know this. They have been told formally and informally and they have acknowledged the problem. They push off the rebalancing and with Tech 3 inbound, just what is the likelihood of substantial change with all the other issues it will bring in rebalancing Tech 3? NIL. NADA. ZIP. BUTKISS. ZERO. ZILCH. There is NO possibility of a change for at least 12 months and even then, what will you get? This is the team that said Alpha strike was bad and unfair and then introduced Doomsdays! This was the team that said sniping was boring and not the way they wanted the game to go and introduce the ultimate in boredom, the Rokh. This is the team that listened to the Amarr whining and nerfed the vagabond into uselessness. Now there is not ONE minnie ship that is capable of outtanking, outganking or outdps's its Amarr counterpart, all other things being equal. The evidence is clear, the Minnie race is being willfully singled out for nerfing into uselessness. There is no ignorance here. There is no desire to balance the game. It is a conscious act with prior consideration and thought. Look at the willful, blissful way CCP ignored the Minnie capital issues and push it off; 'We are going to look at Minnie Capitals sonn (tm).' Yeah, right. In the fullness of time, in due course, after all the requisite procedures have been considred, after we have formed an interdepartmental committee to examine and review the basis for understanding the player groups concerns, after actively consulting with the CSM and the player base, after scheduling in any system changes with future program development paths and storyline arc considerations. In other words; when we can be buggered looking at it sunshine. So adapt. Train Amarr and let the Tempest die a graceful death. Is it fair? No. Is it reasonable? No. It is good for the game to destroy diversity? No. But CCP don't care. They just hit 50k online members and to be frank, they prefer to gain a noob against losing a vet. So, dry your eyes and harden up and fly Amarr. You know it makes sense ......
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.02.17 15:48:00 - [120] 8/10 ____ My Blog Is Awesome
rapta	Posted - 2009.02.18 18:08:00 - [121]
Tyrenical Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.02.25 20:15:00 - [122] Nice post.
Min Qa	Posted - 2009.02.25 20:50:00 - [123] Supported. The tempest needs a role. I don't know what the fix is, but the Mael outshines it in every aspect.
Wu Jiaqiu Tian-di Regime	Posted - 2009.02.25 21:45:00 - [124] Supported
Nerogk Shorn Caldari Royal Hiigaran Navy SCUM.	Posted - 2009.02.26 00:40:00 - [125] I do agree that the Tempest needs a change, and i would certainly love it to have some sort of unique bonus (like the tracking) that allows it to fufill some sort of niche. Do i think your ideas are spot on? No, but they are better than anything i've seen so far. The tempest seriously needs some changes made in order to compete in with the other battleships. Though i'm not sure how much i agree with your proposed Maelstrom shield changes, and ideas about torpedos (after the speed/web nerf patch). Minmatar always used to be very difficult to train for, as many of their ships required both missiles, projectiles and a large drone bay. It's the only races that has both shield and armor tanking ships, with many that can do either. This wasn't bad though, because when someone took the time to train to fly a Minmatar ship, they were something to be feared. Now, many of their ships are a joke, and only the newly released minmatar ships compete with the other races. It's sad. The Bulbasaur Wizard D-F-A-A-B-A-A-S
Nova Soldier Caldari ROMANIA Renegades Legiunea ROmana	Posted - 2009.03.04 12:27:00 - [126] i suport this action.
Jalif Black Sinisters	Posted - 2009.03.05 15:22:00 - [127] Sir, you are a genious
Jalif Black Sinisters	Posted - 2009.03.07 12:20:00 - [128] This cannot be on the second page. More people should support this tbh
Erienne	Posted - 2009.03.07 14:57:00 - [129] Several issues Adding in ANOTHER gun to make the minnie BS class work simply demonstrates the class is fundamentally flawed. Minnie fighting is about glass cannons. Weak tanks, huge alpha and mobility. - The Phoon is high dps/short range/non-autocannon boat that actually can tank. switch the shield hitpoints with the armor hitpoints and it will be fine. This has been an issue for YEARS. - The Tempest should become the fleet sniper (Glass canon) with massive bowel-clenching alpha - low rate of fire and have a weak tank. The utility comes from having the two spare high slots to fit whatever floats your boat. Drop the ROF bonus and make it a 10% per level damage bonus AND an 10% per level Optimal Bonus. The slot variation then allows you to choose 1400mm or 1200mm, full on gank or a bit of tank. The spare highs mean a remote rep ability or a nos ability. OMG it has no tank. That's the price it pays for being the scary beast in fleet warfare. Lifting the optimal also gives it some autocannon capabaility but the lack of a real tank is the weakness of this ship. - The Maelstrom should be the terrifying pure autocannon wet dream. Do not change the tank bonus or the ROF bonus. Make it the most agile and fastest BS. Adjust the tracking of all Minnie autocannons -> they should as a matter of race be the best anyway; not worse than amarr FFS. Then you have three clear roles: - miassion running and ratting - short range armor tanking non-autocannon BS - scary pew pew sniper - scary pew pew close range gunboat. Of course, perhaps one day Minnie will get effective ewar but don't hold your breath on it. It is incredibly disappointing that minnie bs remain the worst and the whining of the amarr saw it become so clearly superior. This is a failure of game design. As for the blasterthrons; welcome to the minnie world.
The Djego merovinger inc	Posted - 2009.03.09 20:25:00 - [130] Originally by: Erienne As for the blasterthrons; welcome to the minnie world. The Blasterthron wasn¦t some kind of I win button the last 2 years and with the Web changes it is allready broken now. The core qestion would be Tempest or Mealstorm for sniping? Rohk is here a bit special since it is the only real turret ship of all 3 tiers and required since Missles don¦t work so well in Fleet Sniping scenarios. Amarr -> Apoc, Gallente -> Megathron, Mini -> Pest mostly I would go 10% Damage per Level(since DPS is allready a Problem with Damage&ROF Bonus). 9 effective Turrets arn¦t this big thing today anyway. The tracking Bonus is quite nice improving the versatility vs small stuff and his sniping Ability. Drones I would got 100/150 -> versatility. I personaly would also increase the base lock Range of the Pest a bit(10-12 km -> 20-30km after Skills + Mods) so it has about 220km with 2 Sensor Boosters. With some minor Adjustments at Artis(a bit more Optimal and Damagemod) you would have the Pest again the Nr. 1 Alpha Sniper and also a very flexible solo/small Gang ship. Personaly I disagree on the the Shield HP Bonus on the Mealstorm, shure It would make it a better sniper but gimp his ability to have a strong active tank in small Gang. If anything a 8/7/4 layout would be prefered, what would further increase the Tank/Gank role for small Gangs plus a bit more speed, would be extrem badass. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
onymous GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.10 19:11:00 - [131] supported. The tempest and maelstrom are both currently garbage and I'd love to have all the SP I sunk into them be worth something finally. (training t2 lasers anyway though.)
atrabilious	Posted - 2009.03.10 19:12:00 - [132]
myrmecophilous	Posted - 2009.03.10 19:13:00 - [133] Anything to make these ships not suck balls.
Gorgoleon	Posted - 2009.03.13 14:39:00 - [134] Supported. Well thought out ideas rather than the usual "buff minmatar nerf caldari and amarr" comments. I love the tempest, it's upright, it has sails, it looks and feels cool imo but it's so hard to try and make it work better than either the phoon or the maelstrom. Let's just hope the designers listen.
Valeri Tempest	Posted - 2009.03.13 19:40:00 - [135] Edited by: Valeri Tempest on 13/03/2009 19:43:58 I like the boost bonus on the maelstrom myself and it makes level 5 considerably more appetizing for mini BS, but good to look at the tempest for sure, a little grid would go a long way, or perhaps a fallof bonus and a 7.5% dmg or rof bonus
Kaylana Syi Stimulus Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2009.03.14 02:43:00 - [136] +1 Need love and definitely need 1640mm Arties. Team Minmatar
Overlord Agnew Stimulus Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2009.03.14 02:44:00 - [137] +1 Very good post!
Yasumi Hanzo	Posted - 2009.03.14 02:45:00 - [138] Great job Pattern!
Gavin Darklighter THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2009.03.14 06:05:00 - [139] Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 14/03/2009 06:05:42 Sounds great for snipers, but I swear to God that if my Maelstrom loses its shield boost bonus there will be hell to pay. Id rather see them give large projectiles about 7% more damage all around, change the ROF bonus on the Mael to damage bonus (it would keep the same DPS as now, but would gain a lot of alpha with 1400s and would eat less ammo with ACs). But for the love of God, don't touch that shield booster bonus. signature picture exceeds the size limit.~WeatherMan
Pattern Clarc	Posted - 2009.03.14 23:06:00 - [140] Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 14/03/2009 23:07:46 It's generally quite hard to explain how a 10% shield HP bonus is actually pretty powerful in both pvp in small gangs and pve... (hint, it can tank 800dps passively right now, 50k shields, hp bonuses stack with extenders) Unless your able to do the math, my advice is to trust me. ____ My Blog Is Awesome
Octavio Santillian Einherjar Rising	Posted - 2009.03.15 04:19:00 - [141] While I agree that Minmatar BSs need work; I just donÆt like these ideas. TBH, Projectiles needs some work too, but lets not worry about that. If we were to just change the ships themselves, I see a breakdown something like this. BTW, IÆm not a mathematician, so IÆm sure the values IÆve listed need some work (especially when it comes to mass). The basic idea is thisà Typhoon = Slow, heavy tank or heavy damage. Tempest = Very fast and agile, sound damage with turrets alone, passive shield tanker. Maelstrom = Dedicated fleet ship, very high alpha, competitive range. àso whatever the values need to be to make that realistic and fair. Typhoon: The first in the Minmatar line of battleships was born from desperate times. Advanced subsystems and reliable sources for component parts were not then consistently available to the Republic. The Typhoon, therefore, was built on a simple, modular, but sturdy structural design and employed the æwhatever we can bolt to the hullÆ weapons philosophy. Though the æphoonÆ does not have fancy defensive systems or sophisticated weapons optimizations, it makes up for that lack of refinement with thick armor and an abundance of weapon hardpoints. Changes: 5/5 Turrets/Launchers Shields: 5469 Armor: 6641 Structure: 6211 Mass: 105,200,000 Velocity: 105 Tempest: With increasing access to more sophisticated subsystem and the emergence of the æmove fast and hit hardÆ Minmatar philosophy, the Tempest was designed to be a nimble, turret based skirmisher capable outmaneuvering other battleships. In order to achieve unparalleled mobility in a battleship class vessel, structure and armor we traded for more advanced shielded systems reverse engineered from destroyed Caldari vessels. Moreover, because the ship needed to move in and out of engagements quickly, weapon subsystems were focused on a fast firing turret based delivery system. Changes: 5% Damage to Large Projectile Turrets 7.5% ROF to Large Projectile Turrets 6/0 Turrets/Launchers 8/6/5 Slot Layout CPU: 560 PG: 1450 Shields: 7500 Shield Recharge: 2000 Armor: 5469 Structure: 5469 Mass: 96,000,000 Velocity: 135 Maelstrom: Now established, the Minmatar Republic has found itself engaging in more traditional fleet vs fleet conflicts. Military leaders recognized the need to have BS capable of engaging at æfleetÆ ranges, but still wanted a ship that fit the Matari philosophy that a good offence is the best defenseàhit them hard first, and you wonÆt have to tank them. Changes: 5% Damage bonus 7.5% Optimal Mass: 100,100,000 Signature Radius: 440 Locking Range: 83 PG: 2700
Gavin Darklighter THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2009.03.17 02:38:00 - [142] Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 17/03/2009 02:42:24 Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 17/03/2009 02:39:24 Originally by: Pattern Clarc Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 14/03/2009 23:07:46 It's generally quite hard to explain how a 10% shield HP bonus is actually pretty powerful in both pvp in small gangs and pve... (hint, it can tank 800dps passively right now, 50k shields, hp bonuses stack with extenders) Unless your able to do the math, my advice is to trust me. I still prefer active tanking twice that, no matter if i am at full shields or no shields, while also having a web, a scram, and four gyros, while in an inexpensive fit thanks to dirt cheap shield resist rigs. Unless YOU are able to do the math on active tanking, my advice is to leave my ship's shield bonus the **** alone. signature picture exceeds the size limit.~WeatherMan
Kazaak Thul	Posted - 2009.03.30 16:34:00 - [143] /signed
Skira Ranos Blood Money Inc. Blood Money Cartel	Posted - 2009.03.30 18:21:00 - [144] No, no, no no no no no no no no no. Learn to fly the ships better before whining, my god. __ Recruiting
Mila Prestoc	Posted - 2009.04.01 14:02:00 - [145] Originally by: Gavin Darklighter Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 17/03/2009 02:57:44 Originally by: Pattern Clarc Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 14/03/2009 23:07:46 It's generally quite hard to explain how a 10% shield HP bonus is actually pretty powerful in both pvp in small gangs and pve... (hint, it can tank 800dps passively right now, 50k shields, hp bonuses stack with extenders) Unless your able to do the math, my advice is to trust me. I still prefer active tanking twice that, no matter if i am at full shields or no shields, while also having a web, a scram, and four gyros, while in an inexpensive fit thanks to dirt cheap shield resist rigs. Unless YOU are able to do the math on active tanking, my advice is to leave my ship's shield bonus the **** alone. Your passive recharge fit would be terrible in any pvp situation. Much better to go for shield HP if that was the bonus instead, and get well over 250k eHP while still doing good damage. I still prefer an active tank however. 800 * 2 = 1600... so your arguement is "my maelstrom is fine cos I have HG crystals!"... great one. Almost as good as CCP thinking every Vaga pilot had HG Slaves with Domi Nanos and MWD. ------------------------- Originally by: "Lord Violent" EvE is slowly becoming a game for the stupid, catered to by devs as they lack ability to kill/survive anything.
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2009.04.01 19:39:00 - [146] Edited by: The Djego on 01/04/2009 19:39:08 Originally by: Mila Prestoc Originally by: Gavin Darklighter Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 17/03/2009 02:57:44 Originally by: Pattern Clarc Edited by: Pattern Clarc on 14/03/2009 23:07:46 It's generally quite hard to explain how a 10% shield HP bonus is actually pretty powerful in both pvp in small gangs and pve... (hint, it can tank 800dps passively right now, 50k shields, hp bonuses stack with extenders) Unless your able to do the math, my advice is to trust me. I still prefer active tanking twice that, no matter if i am at full shields or no shields, while also having a web, a scram, and four gyros, while in an inexpensive fit thanks to dirt cheap shield resist rigs. Unless YOU are able to do the math on active tanking, my advice is to leave my ship's shield bonus the **** alone. Your passive recharge fit would be terrible in any pvp situation. Much better to go for shield HP if that was the bonus instead, and get well over 250k eHP while still doing good damage. I still prefer an active tank however. 800 * 2 = 1600... so your arguement is "my maelstrom is fine cos I have HG crystals!"... great one. Almost as good as CCP thinking every Vaga pilot had HG Slaves with Domi Nanos and MWD. Actual HG Snakes. Im personaly on Gavins side, Mealstorm is next to the Rohk the sickest BS out there for active tanking in small Gangs. You can have this Tank with using 6 Meds for tanking: [Maelstrom, Tank] Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Gyrostabilizer II Damage Control II Caldari Navy X-Large Shield Booster Invulnerability Field II Invulnerability Field II Shield Boost Amplifier II Shield Boost Amplifier II Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L 800mm Repeating Artillery II, Republic Fleet EMP L Core Defence Operational Solidifier I Core Defence Operational Solidifier I Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Ogre II x3 Hammerhead II x2 1.7k, before overheating and without Crystals, other Imps, Drugs or spending massive Amounts on ISK on the Tank. Its close to 4.5k if you use HG Crystals, Combat Boosts and overheating. It is still a very impressive 1k DPS Tank(1.3k with overheating) with 4 Slots in tanking Mods before any Implants and Drugs. Throw in 1-2 Imps and a combat booster and you will hit 1.6k tank easy. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
lHutorol	Posted - 2009.04.02 22:13:00 - [147] supported
Riffsajet Insert Name Here	Posted - 2009.04.02 22:20:00 - [148]
Tyby Viper Squad Triumvirate.	Posted - 2009.04.03 09:14:00 - [149] Edited by: Tyby on 03/04/2009 09:15:09 heh, something must be done with mini bs, even if only boost projectile ammo, and still will be something; how can a ship like typhoon(8/4/7 slots) to have more shield hp then armor hp???! how come even dominix have a greater loking range than the tempest? maelstrom is the only bs than can compete with other races bs atm, that need to change, or minmatar will become an extint race, lol
tzatza leana	Posted - 2009.04.04 13:45:00 - [150] Edited by: tzatza leana on 04/04/2009 13:48:12 free minmatars! lol mini bs and caps need some love! it's been some time now since versatility has become sinonim with faill, today eve is based on ships with specific rolles, and mini faill to deliver;oh, but yea, they are versatile
Gavin Darklighter Ministry of War	Posted - 2009.04.05 19:44:00 - [151] Edited by: Gavin Darklighter on 05/04/2009 19:58:30 Originally by: Mila Prestoc so your arguement is "my maelstrom is fine cos I have HG crystals!"... great one. Almost as good as CCP thinking every Vaga pilot had HG Slaves with Domi Nanos and MWD. I have low-grades and no omega, which costs all of 250m. If you want to fly a buffer tank, then fly a ship that is built for one. Don't go and try to change one of the few great active tanking ships and ruin the game for those of us who enjoy flying them. Here are the changes I would like to see for Mini BS: 1. Increase base EMP and Phased Plasma damage to hybrid/laser equivalents (and also nerf the long-range projectile ammo accordingly). 2. Change Maelstrom bonus from ROF to damage. 3. Increase damage mod on all large projectile weapons by 7% (dps stays the same on the Mael, but the phoon and tempest a little bit. 4. Change Tempest to an 8/4/7 slot layout. 5. Change 'phoon to 8/5/6 layout (or maybe 8/6/5?), and change turret and missile hardpoints to 5 each. A small shield buffer and massive gank would make this ship interesting to fly IMO. 6. Remove optimal range penalty on Hail, and remove tracking penalty on ALL T2 short-range turret/short-range ammo.
Nostredeus Morphius Beyond Transcendence	Posted - 2009.06.11 17:47:00 - [152] Agrees
Hung Wang	Posted - 2009.06.11 22:32:00 - [153] Originally by: Gavin Darklighter If you want to fly a buffer tank, then fly a ship that is built for one. Don't go and try to change one of the few great active tanking ships and ruin the game for those of us who enjoy flying them. Don't ruin the Maelstrom.
Darus Te'rashad The Forbidden Hunters	Posted - 2009.06.17 16:27:00 - [154] Supported.
Urhgo Khanab Rogen's Heroes Shadow of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2009.06.17 17:27:00 - [155] supported
Nullshadow Aperture Harmonics	Posted - 2009.06.17 22:12:00 - [156] I am not 100% on the OP, but it's close enough.
Moonmonkey	Posted - 2009.06.18 07:40:00 - [157] The only things I would like changed is a faster base speed of the 3 minmatar battleships, more powergrid on the Tempest and a much larger ammo clips on artillery.
Zenethalos Noir.	Posted - 2009.06.18 20:11:00 - [158]
Arevor Unloaded Gallente The Ideal of Blindness	Posted - 2009.06.24 14:12:00 - [159] Sounds good.
Aura Mega	Posted - 2009.06.24 22:30:00 - [160] Supported
ClogMan Caldari Caldari Anvil	Posted - 2009.06.25 06:52:00 - [161] /bump for CCP
ArmyOfMe The Athiest Syndicate Advocated Destruction	Posted - 2009.06.25 12:36:00 - [162] do not freaking think about touching my maelstroms active tank
Ravow Cosmic Encounter	Posted - 2009.06.25 20:54:00 - [163] /Signed
Sol ExAstris	Posted - 2009.07.01 01:56:00 - [164] /signed and bumped
Grarr Dexx Amarr Corp 1 Allstars	Posted - 2009.07.01 06:43:00 - [165] Can't support this idea. With the Typhoon, minmatar already have a battleship that can field a full complement of battleship-class drones (25m¦ ones). The 1650mm artillery would also be imbalanced, as minmatar would have a one-up on a trinity of weapon types (d180, 220, 425). Please resize your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist
Natalia Kovac Phoenix Tribe Cult of War	Posted - 2009.09.09 21:39:00 - [166] Signed.

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