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The Time Is Now! Save W-space from the dreaded Pre-Nerf SyndromeÖ!

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Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2009.02.02 18:08:00 - [151] Personally I've always despised the notion of Local. It's just such a grossly unfair source of intel (which I use to my advantage as well). You don't need to bother scouting, you just keep an eye on Local. You don't need guards for a mining op, you just watch Local. You don't need to bother to learn how to use a scanner, you have Local. You cannot trap or be trapped as long as you pay attention to Local. You don't really need to put out any effort at all because Local gives you (at least) a 30-45 second headstart. It is just completely f-tarded. Make Local like Alliance chats. And don't even get me started on the non-consenual Buddy List. I don't want certain people to know when I've logged on. I don't want them docking up just because my pic shows up in the lower righthand screen. I don't want them to have free no-effort no-risk intel on me. Taxman VI: Voided Ledger
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.02 18:09:00 - [152] Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 02/02/2009 18:11:01 Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Well...are there going to be exploration sites in W-Space? Or are most people going to be ratting in belts for Sleeper ships to get the T3 loot? I suppose somewhere down the line sitting in a belt for hours does sound awful. But this is not the 0.0 we have today with vast tracks of empty, unused space. There will be 2,500 systems and probably 20,000+ people (just a guess but I figure everyone and their cat will have a go) trying to dive in on the first few weeks at any given time. On average there will be 10 or so people per system. Yeah...I know it will not work out just like that but I think it is safe to say lurking in a belt to gank ratters will probably net the pirates a steady stream of targets at the outset. There will be exploration sites. Exactly how the NPCs will work and all of that is an unkonwn. My thoughts is that it will work some way like certain parts will be the NPC loot, while reactions and whatnot will be exploration based (or perhaps faction spawns as well). This also does not preclude the possibility of new NPC agents in Space. If this were to happen, I think we would see most w-space PvP devolve into, find wormhole, send frigate, or shuttle, or pod, to see what is on the other side. If it is empire, look for anyone else around/hostile gangs. If this is case, you wait for them, or try and bait them with a small bait ship on the other side of the hole. Perhaps you scan for ships while waiting on the other side, but the method of least resistance is what is always more likely to happen. Now, if we see local removed anywhere, my first thought is along with what Prism mentioned. However, it would be some sort of automatic passive sonar, which worked maybe once in ~30 seconds. This would give you the number of ships, and perhaps their standings to you(we haven't even discussed how bad it would be to waste all that time probing only to find a gang of blues yet). Corp/Alliance isn't all that important if you know they're red. As an aside, from someone who regularly works with intel and recon, this is not nearly as simple as you think. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Karentaki Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.02.02 18:25:00 - [153] Yeah. It makes no sense for local to even exist in W-space, since nobody has any presence there, and there aren't even gates. Quote: EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
5pinDizzy	Posted - 2009.02.02 18:27:00 - [154] Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 02/02/2009 18:29:46 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: 5pinDizzy Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 02/02/2009 16:57:27 Someone want to explain how delayed local isn't some sort of gigantic buff to roaming gank squads? If you're meaning local only refreshing say once every 5 minutes so you can't tell who left when and who joined when within the last 5 minutes I can see some merit to it. Personally I'd be FAR happier with local intel gone altogether in its current form, but I'd like to keep local chat in some way. While being able to keep track of your friends and wartargets a bit more easily somehow... Because they wont have a magic amulet of detecting easy targets. Ummm they do, it's called the directional scanner. Can find anyone not in a safespot in any small system in about 20 seconds and tells you the ship type, Why, are they removing it or something?
SirFett Best Path Inc. Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.02.02 18:27:00 - [155] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: CCP Prism X Greyscale and Abathur actually had an awesome design for the on-board scanner. The only way I could describe it in few words is: Submarine combat. I believe Eve had a radar once, ad we all know how that ended. Anyway, a discussion on removing local is almost useless without talking about what to replace it with. If you remove local, or put it in a delay, we get into that horrible territory of, "Make Eve a boring job" where finding something takes doing the same thing over and over again. Assume both sides are reasonably competant at the moment. The attacker has to look over and over again in every single system. Not only do they not know if someone is in that system without looking, but they have no idea who may be nearby to even know if anyone is coming. The only way to know is just to hang around staring at an empty star gate in a cov ops for as ever long as it takes. Now, maybe there are people who would enjoy having to probe over and over again in every single system, but mostly people would likely get fed up with the fact that you get to do the same boring thing over and over again with chance based results and no idea if your hits or lack are even accurate. Then, the defender, who doesn't need to even use probes, as he doesn't need warp ins, just uses the directional scanner, over and over again. Depending where they are, they may very well have everything important in Directional scanner range. All they need is a ship or a probe to appear on the scanner and they hit the cloak button. Attacker maybe gets a hit before the cloak. However, then they spend the next 20 minutes trying to figure out if they cloaked or left system. And on and on we go. So, with this current system, how does that not make it easier defend, while making attacking a chore? This discussion is pointless without any talk of new mechanics that don't involve you hitting a button every five seconds. this this a 1000 times this unless local is replaced by another means of displaying constant up to date player count of who and what the ramifications are huge even if you replace local the ramifications are still huge going from stuff like server dieing because a mere 100 people constantly get updated information (you know because even with local seconds may decide over life and death ... ) and if you spin the idea of having a submarine sonar type of pinging thing youd think mighty space aliens would have grapsed the concept of IFF long ago so you know who what and where your friends are (hint : blue list) so any other blimp you havent seen before might just be the enemy also consider : a big blimp might just be a big ship ... wich might just be a battleships hmmmm yes you can even find out the rough shiptypes by blimp resonses on your radar sonar thing wich just makes it redicolously easy to find people in a solar system without the need to run long (lol long) probing cycles and even easyer to figure out fleet composition and crap like that on the other hand we got things like "hire npc's" and other stuff yeah way to go we need even more blobbing in this game >_< deal with it local is the simplest tool there is for this game without making it a ******ed but required chore to constantly scan for new targets wether you are the agressor or the defender and it is also the tool that gives you the least amount of information in a not particularly convenient way any other tools to display information would inherently come with a far easyer way to display and format information perhaps even coming with more information or would you be happy in getting a kettle with dozens of holes in it ? id sure feel cheated on that ....
VoiceInTheDesert Diplomatic Disruption Chain of Chaos	Posted - 2009.02.02 18:38:00 - [156] Originally by: bff Jill I still don't see what the big deal with local is Keep local, remove the ability to see how many/who are in it. If you speak in it, people know you are there, if you don't, you are invisible. Create a probe that can be launched and scan an entire system to see how many people are in it from any point in system, with no locational information at all. I'm pretty sure that probe already exists....I think it takes astro 5 though. Seriously though, local is gay and it would be nice for w-space to be the first (hopefully not last) part of eve to see it gone.
Razin The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx	Posted - 2009.02.02 18:47:00 - [157] Originally by: CCP Prism X Edited by: CCP Prism X on 02/02/2009 14:09:16 Originally by: Denaris Aschanna stuff That's using the noggin'! Greyscale and Abathur actually had an awesome design for the on-board scanner. The only way I could describe it in few words is: Submarine combat. Sadly it was way too much work to expect it to work with our current release schedule as well as it having some technical issues (We really can not have people pressing scan every 5 seconds and receive a huge record set over the wire. That's way to close to a nuke node button.) but --> personally, as in me, only me, not CCP, not all of EVE, just me, I only speak for me <-- found the concept to reek of the awesome old sub games I used to play when I was young and stupid..er. Please stop working everything else and implement this. Quote: The only reason I'm telling you this is so you understand that we view removing local as a huge mechanical change, for 0.0. We'd really want something as awesome as that design to replace it there. That has nothing to do with wormhole space lacking local chat as my only reason for that is having local delayed there and nowhere else creating a feeling of instancing and utter solitude in an MMO. As already mentioned here, uncharted space needs to feel like uncharted space. Current Local will make it feel like some "mission instance". Please make Local delayed in W-systems. ...
Cailais Amarr 0utbreak	Posted - 2009.02.02 18:51:00 - [158] The thing with local chan is, that the current arguments are rather unsatisfactory. Keeping local provides knowledge to a player, enhances social play, prevents surprise and defeats stealth tactics. Removing local obliterates that knowledge, kills social play and over compensates in the provision of surprise and stealth tactics. Removing local whilst improving the scanning mechanism will, almost certainly, have an impact upon calls to the server (lag inducing) - as any request to 'find information' through a scan will necessitate a call to the server. What the topography of EVE lacks is terrain. There are no folds in the ground, valleys or patches of long grass. These 'characteristics' provide the fog of war, the fundamental question of "what's over that hill?" Rather than make an entire system devoid of local, apply dead spots within the systems. For example, if you're in close proximity to an asteroid belt you are removed from the local channel. Essentially you can see 'out' of the belt, whilst others cant see 'in'. Potentially different 'terrain types' like this would have varying effects (perhaps some areas blind you to 'local') applied by timers, mass, ship type, aggro and so forth. EVE doesn't need to be swathed in darkness, what it needs are patches of deep shadow. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Psychotic Turtle Minmatar Demonic Retribution Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.02.02 18:59:00 - [159] I can understand having local in empire, its supposedly controled space, I can even understand local in 00, we use jump gates built by the old empires. I can immagine jump gates keeping track of local trafic. How can you justify to me, who or what keeps track of local trafic in "uncharted" 00? I am not a role player, but still there has to be some sort of justification for a game mechanic at the end of the day. P.S. No local in Uncharted 00 please. ===== * Your signature file is broken. Please use one that works - Fallout
Rhaegor Stormborn H A V O C Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.02.02 19:04:00 - [160] Edited by: Rhaegor Stormborn on 02/02/2009 19:03:52
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.02 19:11:00 - [161] Originally by: Psychotic Turtle I am not a role player, but still there has to be some sort of justification for a game mechanic at the end of the day. Due to the nature of pod pilot ships, they all broadcast a similar nature of signal, which contains a unique ID, such as a license plate for terrestrial vehicles. Upon entering a system, via wormhole, stargate, cyno field, or any other method, your ship starts broadcasting this signal. At the same time your scanners begin to look for and receive any active signals on these frequencies. These signals are then looked up in a standard database that is on exists on all ships, constantly updated via a central server housed in the depths of the CONCORD Assembly. Due to the nature of these pseudo-licenses, any pilot will not only know within seconds who the pilot is, and be able to look up their information and employment history, but they will also immediately have an IFF display as well. These IFF displays come from similar databases on ships that are maintained by the pilot's corporations and alliances, to avoid unfortunate friendly fire incidents. ------------------- A bit crude, but there you go, RP reason for why this works.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.02 19:12:00 - [162] Originally by: CCP Prism X Greyscale and Abathur actually had an awesome design for the on-board scanner. The only way I could describe it in few words is: Submarine combat. Did they fix the problems with that model(post 38+) when it was first brought up? Originally by: Tobias Sjodin However, there are few ideas that show their true impact without research, we can speculate about local until we are blue in the face, but we would not see the real consequences of a lack of local (or it's complete removal) until it was implemented to a realistic scale. Yes, we can. It just takes some rational thought.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.02 19:26:00 - [163] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: 5pinDizzy Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 02/02/2009 16:57:27 Someone want to explain how delayed local isn't some sort of gigantic buff to roaming gank squads? If you're meaning local only refreshing say once every 5 minutes so you can't tell who left when and who joined when within the last 5 minutes I can see some merit to it. Personally I'd be FAR happier with local intel gone altogether in its current form, but I'd like to keep local chat in some way. While being able to keep track of your friends and wartargets a bit more easily somehow... Because they wont have a magic amulet of detecting easy targets. No, they will have a magical wand of "drop probe and scan the whole system in 30 seconds then warp to target". Possibly staying cloaked the whole time.
Psychotic Turtle Minmatar Demonic Retribution Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.02.02 19:44:00 - [164] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: Psychotic Turtle I am not a role player, but still there has to be some sort of justification for a game mechanic at the end of the day. Due to the nature of pod pilot ships, they all broadcast a similar nature of signal, which contains a unique ID, such as a license plate for terrestrial vehicles. Upon entering a system, via wormhole, stargate, cyno field, or any other method, your ship starts broadcasting this signal. At the same time your scanners begin to look for and receive any active signals on these frequencies. These signals are then looked up in a standard database that is on exists on all ships, constantly updated via a central server housed in the depths of the CONCORD Assembly. Due to the nature of these pseudo-licenses, any pilot will not only know within seconds who the pilot is, and be able to look up their information and employment history, but they will also immediately have an IFF display as well. These IFF displays come from similar databases on ships that are maintained by the pilot's corporations and alliances, to avoid unfortunate friendly fire incidents. ------------------- A bit crude, but there you go, RP reason for why this works. LOL dude, you might as well have said "magic". I guess if you read enough sci-fi you can justify anything. Still uncharted space should be a new experience, not just a fancier 00.
Thynar Gallente Melita Foundation	Posted - 2009.02.02 19:51:00 - [165] Edited by: Thynar on 02/02/2009 19:51:42 Edited by: Thynar on 02/02/2009 19:51:24 Originally by: Zeba Edited by: Zeba on 02/02/2009 14:35:38 Edited by: Zeba on 02/02/2009 14:34:23 Originally by: CCP Prism X Greyscale and Abathur actually had an awesome design for the on-board scanner. The only way I could describe it in few words is: Submarine combat. Picket probes. Probes that have a long duration passive mode to listen for any electronic signals ie active search probes or built in scanners. Second mode is short range short duration mass detection to sit near a known wormhole or in your mining belt/plex/whatever to register any incoming ships including cloaked. edit: or picket drones. Same uses only all ships can have some. The concept is already valid in real life. The US has deployed sonabouys all over the world's oceans especially the Atlantic. They give intel that needs to be interpreted back at base. It takes x amount of time to setup but gets rid of the "scan every 30 seconds" while still requiring the player to pay a modi****of attention. Wouldn't really know how to balance range, setup duration, intel obtained, cost, volume etc but it might work. Edit: m.o.d.i.c.u.m. is a filtered word
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.02 19:58:00 - [166] Originally by: Setanta Spartan Originally by: Zeba Besides the rats are going to be much much moar of a constant nusance than a random gang of pirates who just happened to scan out the 1 w-system out of 2500 that has you in it. I think people are still thinking in terms of a set connection of systems and not the totaly random connections that will be what happens when you scan from k space to w space. Hmm, good point. There will be 2500 wormhole systems with random wormholes connecting them intermittently to regular space and other wormholes. Eve tops out at approx 45k users at the weekend. If every pilot managed to get into a wormhole at the exact same time then thatÆs an average of 18 pilots per wormhole. I some how doubt that everyone is suddenly going to go into the wormhole business at the same time. So if only 10% of peak users show interest and are present in wormholes at the same time, then thatÆs 1.8 players per wormhole and you will be 1.0 of that 1.8 . Lets all remember that not everyone is looking to gank you, some of us are actually friendly. Now back to topic, no local please or maybe a delayed so someone can try ask for help in dealing with a rat, needing repairs, ammo trade etc Reminds me of a Voyager episode the number cited by the devs was 2000+ but: 1) there are at least 3 tiers of wormholes: a) those accessible by high sec; b) those accessible by 0.0 (and I assume low sec); c) those accessible oly from other WH systems. 2) at least half of those 40K characters will be in high sec; 3) every WH system will have at least 1 WH open So let's hypothesize that 5% of all players are interested in finding WH systems; that make 2.000 players scanning at the same time, 1.000 for them will be in high sec. So half of the system in high sec will someone scanning at every hours of the day and night. Let's say 3 shift of probers, it is 3.000 probers every day in high sec. No idea on how those 2.000+ system will be distributed between the (minimum) 3 tiers, but even being generous the systems linking principally to high sec will not be more than 800. So every WH system will be discovered over and over every day. Then, the enemy don't need to be pirates, WH space is 0.0, so every person that isn't a friend is automatically an enemy. For hunters the best entry point is high sec. They will scan in perfect peace without any problem, almost certainly the target hasn't set up a heavy presence as the wormhole has a limited capacity, depending on the WH mass allowance they can easily change ship type. if they are the first to discover a new system they can set up there and camp the entry point of the WH. If it close they can scan the new WH for the system and set up camp there. The prey will come to them. If they are second they will enter only if the WH allow a sufficent force to overcome what can be the force already present (max mass in high sec is about 10 BS, so if the WH allow less than 5 BS you know you will probably be outgunned unless the target group has mining ships). So a WH system is essentially a souped up version of a low sec entry point, included the good chance of finding a gatecamp, with the added bonus for the campers of the possibility to set up a bubble. Going there with any other thought in mind is suicide by stupidity. So Zeba idea is to make it even more attacker friendly removing local. Don't forget that even if she say "I am not asking for a hurried up removal of local", this thread title is "Save W-space from the dreaded pre-nerf syndrome" and her way to save it is to remove local. So she want W-space to be implemented without local, not local to be removed when a alternate system to scan enemies has been implemented. And to repeat it again: it will be no more possible to probe a system for scan probes. So a hunter can easily pinpoint you from outside 14 AU and you would have no way to detect them with the directional scanner.
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.02.02 20:03:00 - [167] Remove local entirely and/or make it an- optional channel you can join, so that two groups dont have to zip around a system trying to find a name that they can Convo. I think no local would really help in taking/retaking of resources in W space. It'll also add to the sense of exploration, venturing out where no one can hear your screams and everyone just shoots first.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.02 20:10:00 - [168] Originally by: Rex Lashar "A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week." Look what happened with the Kali overhaul of the probing systems and the almost total disappearance of mission runners from low sec and you will see why CCP feel that a "good plan, violently executed now" is the better way to get a "very negative result" . This isn't a war where that maxim applies, this is a game where screwing up mean less money for the company and less players for the game.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.02 20:13:00 - [169] Originally by: An Anarchyyt If I am in 0.0, I can possibly assume that they are in belts. However, there is not much more chance they are ratting in belts versus doing exploration sites or missioning (in those areas). Like I said, assume the same competency, the defending is constantly using his directional scan, so he will have an idea before they appear in belts. Scanning range: directional scan 14 AU, probes 40+ Warping cloaked ship first for the attacker. Originally by: An Anarchyyt And I don't know about you, but do you really think sitting cloaked in a belt for hours waiting for someone who may or may not come is something most people won't find absolutely horrid? Where is the difference from gatecamping?
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.02 20:38:00 - [170] Originally by: Venkul Mul Scanning range: directional scan 14 AU, probes 40+ Warping cloaked ship first for the attacker. Where is the difference from gatecamping? 1.) Needs Astro V for Ferrets, how many people will have that is debatable. The Ferret is also not the most reliable scanning probe. So while it may give them the advantage, it is not even very reliable for finding anything subcapital. So, while this, and the Observator are distinct possibilities, they are very likely to miss numerous times, or give you a hit that requires a snoop to be placed. There is also no guarantee that you will actually be more than 14au away from where they are when you drop the probe. 2.) Gate camping is sitting at known choke points under the pretense that people actually go through them. Sitting cloaked in a random belt is a guess that someone might wander into that system and happen to go to that belt. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.02 20:39:00 - [171] Originally by: Psychotic Turtle LOL dude, you might as well have said "magic". I guess if you read enough sci-fi you can justify anything. Still uncharted space should be a new experience, not just a fancier 00. Local the way it is does not preclude a new experience. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Sky Marshal IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.02.02 21:46:00 - [172] Edited by: Sky Marshal on 02/02/2009 21:48:27 I am against the removal of local it is today. But I agree that local don't have to be in W-Space, because this wouldn't be coherent to have the habitual local in unknown systems where there is no communication network nor stargates to act like relays. But I don't know why, W-Space will not have much players inside after one or two months... Maybe just an impression ___________________ EVE "Community" become more like WoW each day, with his fanboy attitude. Simplistic logic, Lazy thinking, No capacity to comprehend same a justified whine...
Cassius Longinus Stimulus Rote Kapelle	Posted - 2009.02.02 22:24:00 - [173] I don't have anything useful to add: I despise local. It marginalizes almost all tactical intelligence gathering. But of course people like it because they are risk averse- it's not that I blame them, but I suspect the game is much less fun for me because of the current local mechanics (It's hard to know for sure since we can't really test "no local" systems on SISI or anything). I've given up on this. All the dev comments have indicated a clear lack of initiative on this front. Something else is always a higher priority. I'm glad that certain dev's have certain "personal opinions" on the mechanics, but without the resolve to get anything done, it's just more hot air on eve forums. Meh.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2009.02.02 22:27:00 - [174] Originally by: Cassius Longinus But of course people like it because they are risk averse- it's not that I blame them, but I suspect the game is much less fun for me because of the current local mechanics (It's hard to know for sure since we can't really test "no local" systems on SISI or anything). About a year or so ago, after a patch, local was not functioning. It was...weird. The Devs sorted it out within a few hours but for those few hours no one was quite sure what to do (not having had time to really come to grips with it). Was interesting anyway. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Rondo Gunn Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.02.02 22:32:00 - [175] The lazy pirates shall whine because they will have no longer have the near-instant information gathering tool that is Local. The lazy carebears shall whine because they will have no longer have the near-instant information gathering tool that is Local. I would like a delayed local (or rather notalky/nosee local) in W-space. The stargates pass on info (supposedly) in eve lore so if there are no gates in W-space you would naturally assume....but you know what they say about assumptions. I would like it if for nothing else than the tears that would be shed and the whine threads it shall spawn. As soon as Q/A is up to it...I guess... ----------------------------------------------- shin ku myo u Please note: Everything I say is flavored with irony, cynicism and, of course, minty freshness.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.02 22:32:00 - [176] I really find it amusing that people think that being able to go "46 hostiles in local" is the sum total of "tactical intelligence gathering." Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Horsemen of Apocalypse	Posted - 2009.02.02 22:34:00 - [177] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Originally by: soldieroffortune 258 "*Eve is about making yourself richer while making the other guy poorer*"
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2009.02.02 22:43:00 - [178] Originally by: An Anarchyyt I really find it amusing that people think that being able to go "46 hostiles in local" is the sum total of "tactical intelligence gathering." In your business there is a lot more to it. In the pirate "gank the carebear" business it is all the carebear needs to get away which ****es the pirates off to no end. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Rondo Gunn Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.02.02 22:43:00 - [179] Originally by: An Anarchyyt I really find it amusing that people think that being able to go "46 hostiles in local" is the sum total of "tactical intelligence gathering." Because noone uses local to look for potential targets? ----------------------------------------------- shin ku myo u Please note: Everything I say is flavored with irony, cynicism and, of course, minty freshness.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.02 22:51:00 - [180] Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 02/02/2009 22:51:50 Originally by: Rondo Gunn Originally by: An Anarchyyt I really find it amusing that people think that being able to go "46 hostiles in local" is the sum total of "tactical intelligence gathering." Because noone uses local to look for potential targets? No matter how many apples you have, you still have zero oranges. Originally by: Imperator Jora'h In your business there is a lot more to it. In the pirate "gank the carebear" business it is all the carebear needs to get away which **es the pirates off to no end. I know this. You know this. If only they'd admit it to themselves. Originally by:** CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person

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