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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:09:00 -
[121]
 Originally by: CCP Prism X
Originally by: Par'Gellen
stuff
That's using the noggin'!
Greyscale and Abathur actually had an *awesome* design for the on-board scanner. The only way I could describe it in few words is: Submarine combat.
Sadly it was way too much work to expect it to work with our current release schedule as well as it having some technical issues (We really can not have people pressing scan every 5 seconds and receive a huge record set over the wire. That's way to close to a nuke node button.) but --> personally, as in me, only me, not CCP, not all of EVE, just me, I only speak for me <-- found the concept to reek of the awesome old sub games I used to play when I was young and stupid..er.
The only reason I'm telling you this is so you understand that we view removing local as a huge mechanical change, for 0.0. We'd really want something as awesome as that design to replace it there. That has nothing to do with wormhole space lacking local chat as my only reason for that is having local delayed there and nowhere else creating a feeling of instancing and utter solitude in an MMO.
However, I'm not adamant on it in any sense. It's quite possible that I'm being overly defensive regarding my work. I do try and keep my draconian attitude in check so I allow for that possibility. 
So post on. With the caveat that absolutely nothing is promised (as it is in real life when we exchange ideas.. but I know it's pretty futile bringing RL sense into forums. )
Don't you realise that that feeling of "utter solitude" is exactly what so many of us want. Vast swaths of utterly empty, dark, cold space. Not a sign of another sentient life-form. Perfect silence...
OH GOD OH JESUS THEY GOT ME SCRAMMED WTF WTF HELP HE>>>> carrier lost
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Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:12:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Zaknussem
Unless the AI team has found a way to make Sleepers multitask in combat in a sensible manner (scram the haulers, jam the gankers, kill the haulers, for example) then the Sleepers are only going to be a nuisance instead of a real threat. The ability to switch targets is useless if there's no real AI to call the shots.
What you know of AI programming sadly means nothing in this case unless you're on the CCP AI team. When it comes to CCP and upcoming features in EvE, I have learned that even cautious optimism can lead to disappointment...and new NPC AI is actually one feature I'd like to see CCP pull off in style.
In short, your assumptions aren't doing anyone any favours. I suggest that you stick to the facts, and not try to make your guesswork come off as facts.
Your overcomplicating the process. The key to sripting competent ai is to make it as simple as possible. Basically on warp in the ai check to see what is in the area vs what they have. An algorythm is then run to determine which script to execute. Numbers indicate 'pillage the miners ver.b7' is optimal and simply tells the rats to ignore the drones and combat ships so they can scram and kill any barges mining frigs or cruisers based off the data. All done with just a few lines of code and a few script calls. (and tons of Q&A bug fixing. )
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Mr Xanatos
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:13:00 -
[123]
Just to add, I'm planning to go to W-Hole space for fun, not for the isk, lets keep it fun and adventure. If I want isk I can grind my boring lvl4/5's while watching tv at the same time.
Insta Local will take away the fun and adventure imo |
Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:18:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Mihaill Blackthorn
Forces an aggressor to seek you out? What crap statement is that? You know darn good and well if there is no local all the groups will do is sit on the gate and gank over and over like it's an npc spawn.
Gate? What gate.  |
Cass Tamuri
Nebula Rasa Holdings
Nebula Rasa
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:19:00 -
[125]
 Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.  |
Par'Gellen
Gallente
Tres Hombres Psychiatric Hospital
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:23:00 -
[126]
Actually now that I think about my previous post a bit I realize that with no local in W-Space and random drop in points the pirates would be virtually untouchable while allowing them to harrass law abiders with impunity.
Hell they wouldn't even NEED the directional scanner because they could just fly around from belt to belt at their leisure and pop anyone they find. It would be WORSE than having local like it is now.
Bad guy drops into W-Space system. Does a quick unidirectional scan at max range looking for other players. Sees some and just flies around till he finds them while they have no idea he's even there until the shooting starts. Bad. Very bad.
Think about it. |
Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:32:00 -
[127]
Edited by: Zeba on 02/02/2009 14:34:23
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Greyscale and Abathur actually had an *awesome* design for the on-board scanner. The only way I could describe it in few words is: Submarine combat.
Picket probes. Probes that have a long duration passive mode to listen for any electronic signals ie active search probes or built in scanners. Second mode is short range short duration mass detection to sit near a known wormhole or in your mining belt/plex/whatever to register any incoming ships including cloaked.
inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan |
Khaelis
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:34:00 -
[128]
I approve of delayed local in W-space.
I think it would work well with the concept of unexplored space. Pilots in W-space will have to be cautious at all times if they do not want to be caught by surprise and that is the way it should be! Hit that scan button like it dispensed ferrogel. (Ok not that much, do think of the node)
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Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:38:00 -
[129]
Originally by: Par'Gellen
Think about it.
We are. Notice all the brainstorming going on? Care to add a few ideas of your own? |
Liz Laser
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:43:00 -
[130]
I can't help but feel that this is simply a disguised "miners and ratters exist solely to be ganked" thread.
I'll admit that local is a weird game mechanic, but ganking (or at least halting/disrupting) mining ops is already way too easy REGARDLESS of the existence of local. |
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:50:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Liz Laser
I can't help but feel that this is simply a disguised "miners and ratters exist solely to be ganked" thread.
I'll admit that local is a weird game mechanic, but ganking (or at least halting/disrupting) mining ops is already way too easy REGARDLESS of the existence of local.
Carebears aren't people, they're giant flying loot dispensers. |
Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:50:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Liz Laser
I can't help but feel that this is simply a disguised "miners and ratters exist solely to be ganked" thread.
I'll admit that local is a weird game mechanic, but ganking (or at least halting/disrupting) mining ops is already way too easy REGARDLESS of the existence of local.
Good thing we are only talking about w-space and not empire. Besides the rats are going to be much much moar of a constant nusance than a random gang of pirates who just happened to scan out the 1 w-system out of 2500 that has you in it. I think people are still thinking in terms of a set connection of systems and not the totaly random connections that will be what happens when you scan from k space to w space. |
Sidus Isaacs
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.02 15:10:00 -
[133]
Delayd local in wormholes, sure, ehy not? Its not established space. Delayed loacl in 0.0? No, I do not agree. that just measn everyone will die to roaming gang if they themswlf is not in one. It promotes blobs at a huge degree. |
Par'Gellen
Gallente
Tres Hombres Psychiatric Hospital
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Posted - 2009.02.02 15:12:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Zeba
Originally by: Par'Gellen
Think about it.
We are. Notice all the brainstorming going on? Care to add a few ideas of your own?
Actually sure!  Here is what I would do if I were in charge. Some of this goes beyond the scope of this topic but hey you asked 
- Convert local to delayed mode for the entire universe.
- Proceed with the changes outlined for probes in the W-Space blog.
- Introduce NPC mercs that can be hired as protection (because lets face it nobody wants to sit and guard you mining for hours only to watch you die in a spectatular explosion before they can even lock the bad guy no matter how good a friend they are).
- Give mining barges the ability to actually defend themselves and still be mining barges. Very powerful automated defense systems comes to mind. If a pirate wants to crack one he better bring buddies. I'd make them something like the equivalent of a faction fitted omni-tanked Dominix with the defensive only firepower of a Nightmare. All automated of course to avoid abuse. They really shouldn't be big candy bags made of paper like they are now.
- Introduce a counter to bubbles and dictor spheres (probably the most overpowered rediculous poo in the game in my opinion).
- Remove celestial objects like belts and stuff from the overview and warp-to list. These things should only be exploration findable.
- Remove the directional scanner. If you don't use probes you shouldn't be able to find anything.
That's what I would do if I had the big dev whacking stick. |
Irida Mershkov
Gallente
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.02.02 15:13:00 -
[135]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Edited by: CCP Prism X on 02/02/2009 14:09:16
Originally by: Denaris Aschanna
stuff
Submarine combat.
If i'm thinking/imagining this correctly, holy ****nap this would be awesome. |
Setanta Spartan
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Posted - 2009.02.02 15:15:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Zeba
Good thing we are only talking about w-space and not empire. Besides the rats are going to be much much moar of a constant nusance than a random gang of pirates who just happened to scan out the 1 w-system out of 2500 that has you in it. I think people are still thinking in terms of a set connection of systems and not the totaly random connections that will be what happens when you scan from k space to w space.
Hmm, good point. There will be 2500 wormhole systems with random wormholes connecting them intermittently to regular space and other wormholes.
Eve tops out at approx 45k users at the weekend. If every pilot managed to get into a wormhole at the exact same time then thatÆs an average of 18 pilots per wormhole. I some how doubt that everyone is suddenly going to go into the wormhole business at the same time. So if only 10% of peak users show interest and are present in wormholes at the same time, then thatÆs 1.8 players per wormhole and you will be 1.0 of that 1.8 . Lets all remember that not everyone is looking to gank you, some of us are actually friendly.
Now back to topic, no local please or maybe a delayed so someone can try ask for help in dealing with a rat, needing repairs, ammo trade etc
Reminds me of a Voyager episode
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Tobias Sjodin
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2009.02.02 15:32:00 -
[137]
What about a delayed mode that works like so:
Idea:
If a pilot has been in local for X amount of time he shows up as present in local via the regular means.
This contrary to the delayed mode, where you actually have to speak in local to show up.
Consequences:
a) A person ratting would have to move between systems to reliably be undetected in local.
b) An 'afk cloaker' would always show up in local.
c) The hunter has a timeframe of X to find a ratter without showing up in local.
Addendum:
If X amount jumps into local at the same time, everyone of them show up in local at once.
Consequence:
a) A fleet jumping into local will make itself known to everyone in local directly.
b) Smaller gangs, individuals will not.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2009.02.02 16:19:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Zeba
Now for those who are browsing the thread and are thinking onos no local and the pirates will get me. Yes this can happen if you are not paying attention but on the other hand it forces the aggressor to seek you out. Currently a prowling pvper can roam vast sections of space because all he has to do to find a target is see if someone is in local and do a check info then drop a probe. On the other hand a miner or ratter can instantly see the same and log. The amount of instantanious info that both persons get is immense and tbh kinda ruins the fun. However if there is no local then the aggressor has to meticulously scan out each and every system to find a target. This means as long as the person who wants to be left along is running an occasional scan for aggressors then he is safe. On the other hand it helps people looking for kills to for once have a chance to actually sneak up and kill a target. All in all its one of the vanishing few changes in the game mechanics that is completely unbiased and rewards the person who wants to actively and moar importantly smartly play the game be it a ganker or a carebear. Hopefully one day it can be applied to 0.0 but thats as far as I would support it outside of w-space and a battle for another day.
I have not read the whole thread but I think you are over stating the trouble gankers will have as opposed to ratters.
Pirates need not scan the whole system. EVE is setup to have people in belts and such. Gankers can just roam the belts and find you. Or they can cloak up in a belt and wait for explorers to come to them. Un-cloak...*wham*. The guys who just came in system will have zero clue you are there...even if the *do* drop probes. Bring a bigger gang? Well fine except now the cloakers just stay cloaked. They are ideally set to do whatever they want on their own terms. That does not seem balanced to me.
There needs to be some reasonable way for people to know other people are out there so they can decide on their next approach. I am not opposed to making it something they have to work towards but it needs to be balanced. For instance making belts or anywhere really (except moons/planets) something that *must* be probed for to be found. Then, if that probe "pings" the system everyone in the system knows a ping went off. Does not tell them how many people are out there or anything but lets them know *someone* is out there and looking.
I would also suggest that with no local cloaked players could be semi-spotted. Not spotted as in you know where they are but spotted as in you know they are out there somewhere when you probe the system.
Just to be clear I kind of like the idea of no local but I think you really must think through all the knock-on effects such a thing would entail and account for them. Just tearing it out wholesale with no other mechanic changes I think would be a bad thing.
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Trent Nichols
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.02 16:33:00 -
[139]
I remember those submarine games, they were about the only thing my first comp could run well
I would love to see such mechanics in Eve and I don't think constant "pings" would be a server breaking mechanic either.
Like pings in the sub games, a constant scanner wouldn't need to show ship types and names like the current scanner does, just distance and estimated size (or maybe energy output in Eve). Instead of details on a 200 ship fleet, you just get a big blob :)
At any rate, I hope the Devs use W-space as a testing ground for local changes that will be brought into normal space.
Logistics deployables mean less grind and more pewpew! |
5pinDizzy
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Posted - 2009.02.02 16:51:00 -
[140]
Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 02/02/2009 16:57:27
Someone want to explain how delayed local isn't some sort of gigantic buff to roaming gank squads?
If you're meaning local only refreshing say once every 5 minutes so you can't tell who left when and who joined when within the last 5 minutes I can see some merit to it.
Personally I'd be FAR happier with local intel gone altogether in its current form, but I'd like to keep local chat in some way.
While being able to keep track of your friends and wartargets a bit more easily somehow... |
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
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Posted - 2009.02.02 17:00:00 -
[141]
Originally by: 5pinDizzy
Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 02/02/2009 16:57:27
Someone want to explain how delayed local isn't some sort of gigantic buff to roaming gank squads?
If you're meaning local only refreshing say once every 5 minutes so you can't tell who left when and who joined when within the last 5 minutes I can see some merit to it.
Personally I'd be FAR happier with local intel gone altogether in its current form, but I'd like to keep local chat in some way.
While being able to keep track of your friends and wartargets a bit more easily somehow...
Because they wont have a magic amulet of detecting easy targets. |
Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron
Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.02.02 17:10:00 -
[142]
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
Mooble Marble
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Posted - 2009.02.02 17:22:00 -
[143]
I would love to see this. It would add to the feeling of exploration, and the cold emptiness of space.
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. |
An Anarchyyt
Gallente
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.02 17:25:00 -
[144]
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Greyscale and Abathur actually had an *awesome* design for the on-board scanner. The only way I could describe it in few words is: Submarine combat.
I believe Eve had a radar once, ad we all know how that ended.
Anyway, a discussion on removing local is almost useless without talking about what to replace it with. If you remove local, or put it in a delay, we get into that horrible territory of, "Make Eve a boring job" where finding something takes doing the same thing over and over again.
Assume both sides are reasonably competant at the moment.
The attacker has to look over and over again in every single system. Not only do they not know if someone is in that system without looking, but they have no idea who may be nearby to even know if anyone is coming. The only way to know is just to hang around staring at an empty star gate in a cov ops for as ever long as it takes.
Now, maybe there are people who would enjoy having to probe over and over again in every single system, but mostly people would likely get fed up with the fact that you get to do the same boring thing over and over again with chance based results and no idea if your hits or lack are even accurate.
Then, the defender, who doesn't need to even use probes, as he doesn't need warp ins, just uses the directional scanner, over and over again. Depending where they are, they may very well have everything important in Directional scanner range. All they need is a ship or a probe to appear on the scanner and they hit the cloak button.
Attacker maybe gets a hit before the cloak. However, then they spend the next 20 minutes trying to figure out if they cloaked or left system.
And on and on we go. So, with this current system, how does that not make it easier defend, while making attacking a chore? This discussion is pointless without any talk of new mechanics that don't involve you hitting a button every five seconds. |
Guttripper
State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.02 17:30:00 -
[145]
Perhaps I missed it as I briefly read through this thread and did not notice it in the dev blog, but I would think (do not want to assume) that W-space will have no security rating and thus no Concord interaction either, correct? |
An Anarchyyt
Gallente
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.02 17:31:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Guttripper
Perhaps I missed it as I briefly read through this thread and did not notice it in the dev blog, but I would think (do not want to assume) that W-space will have no security rating and thus no Concord interaction either, correct?
It will have a security rating, it'll just be 0.0 |
Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2009.02.02 17:41:00 -
[147]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
And on and on we go. So, with this current system, how does that not make it easier defend, while making attacking a chore? This discussion is pointless without any talk of new mechanics that don't involve you hitting a button every five seconds.
As I mentioned above attackers can assume ratters are in the belts. Ratters have no clue the gank squad is on its way till they see their ships appear next to them.
That or just cloak up some Recons in a belt and wait like a spider for someone to roam into the net. If they look like someone you can take have at it. If they don't stay cloaked.
Regardless of who has it "easier" I absolutely agree just yanking local is not the answer (although overall I like the idea of it getting replaced as an intelligence tool). Another mechanic would need to replace it.
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Rex Lashar
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.02.02 17:51:00 -
[148]
@CCP PrismX
You know what is most frustrating about this whole mess?
We've given years, and years, and years of feedback, design documents, rationalization, requests for prioritization, pleas for mercy and any last ounce of attention to the matter of local chat.
You're essentially asking for more of that, while confirming that CCP already has work done in the area but chose not to prioritize it in yet another expansion. This is going to be the third full overhaul of scanning since the start of retail. Each time CCP have stated that nothing can be done to local chat until it comes time to change scanning, so that's three opportunities I've seen come and go.
Last year, Zulupark mentioned local changes were in the works for 1H 2009. Now it's been reduced to the position of 'maybe, if we have enough time' once more.
Oveur brought this up almost five years ago, in response to years of complaints. What more do you expect to hear that hasn't already been said a hundred different ways? Local chat ****ing sucks. It sucks massive space ****s.
It's one of the most commonly posted gameplay issues on the forum, and even the majority of people debating with the proponents of local chat removal agree that it could stand to be improved.
Entire new generations of players have all come to the SAME CONCLUSIONS on their own. Old vets who've never seen a tech 2 ship before are coming back to a completely different and evolved MMO: except for the idiocy of local chat.
I'm sorry, but you can't seriously expect us to keep holding out for this epic overhaul that is currently resting in some limbo state on somebody's desk for the past five years. Whatever happened to Cowboy Mode?
Quote:
"A good plan, violently executed now, is better than a perfect plan next week."
Your reluctance for changing it essentially boil down to
- feeling of instancing
- feeling of emptiness
- inferior implementation
- anti 'testbed'
The first two I don't even understand, because the idea that you might not be alone in a system keeps you on edge. While knowing you're definitely alone has made people realize just how dead lowsec really is. As for instancing, well that's largely the fault of new WH mechanics, isn't it? What does local have to do with that? You know what makes me feel this game has instancing more than anything?
I jump into a system with 5 enemies mining in an exploration site. I could technically, via game mechanics, enter the same area as those five players. But practically it's not going to happen. Ever. They just instadock the moment I enter local. I've had to put up with that for weeks at a time during corp war, without so much as locking an enemy ship. Local contributes more to the feeling of deadspace being instanced gameplay than any other scenario I could imagine.
But back to the discussion.. Using your own candy metaphor I will explain some things.
First, you underestimate how much bad candy we can eat after 6 years of cabbage. Second, you don't realize it would not be an EVE-wide change and the people who absolutely hate it still have options. Third, if future revisions are really in the pipeline then it's not an apocalyptic scenario where you permanently ruined something. And lastly..
WH space has no gate PVP or cyno hotdrops. Where and how exactly do you expect non-consensual PVP to occur? I enter a WH system with local giving away my presence, everyone warps to their POS. Now what? I can't sit on the other side of the gate, because the gates are constantly moving. I can't bait with inferior numbers and drop in a Carrier. WH space is fundamentally different, and you should look at a local change not as using WH space into a guinea pig, but as a restoration of the basic player interaction that currently exists in k-space.
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.02 17:53:00 -
[149]
Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 02/02/2009 17:56:27
Originally by: Imperator Jora'h
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
And on and on we go. So, with this current system, how does that not make it easier defend, while making attacking a chore? This discussion is pointless without any talk of new mechanics that don't involve you hitting a button every five seconds.
As I mentioned above attackers can assume ratters are in the belts. Ratters have no clue the gank squad is on its way till they see their ships appear next to them.
That or just cloak up some Recons in a belt and wait like a spider for someone to roam into the net. If they look like someone you can take have at it. If they don't stay cloaked.
Regardless of who has it "easier" I absolutely agree just yanking local is not the answer (although overall I like the idea of it getting replaced as an intelligence tool). Another mechanic would need to replace it.
If I am in 0.0, I can possibly assume that they are in belts. However, there is not much more chance they are ratting in belts versus doing exploration sites or missioning (in those areas).
Like I said, assume the same competency, the defending is constantly using his directional scan, so he will have an idea before they appear in belts.
And I don't know about you, but do you really think sitting cloaked in a belt for hours waiting for someone who may or may not come is something most people won't find absolutely horrid?
Side note on the post above me: I bet talking like a kid throwing a temper tantrum is the best way to deal with everything.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2009.02.02 18:00:00 -
[150]
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 02/02/2009 18:01:15
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
If I am in 0.0, I can possibly assume that they are in belts. However, there is not much more chance they are ratting in belts versus doing exploration sites or missioning (in those areas).
Like I said, assume the same competency, the defending is constantly using his directional scan, so he will have an idea before they appear in belts.
And I don't know about you, but do you really think sitting cloaked in a belt for hours waiting for someone who may or may not come is something most people won't find absolutely horrid?
Side note on the post above me: I bet talking like a kid throwing a temper tantrum is the best way to deal with everything.
Well...are there going to be exploration sites in W-Space? Or are most people going to be ratting in belts for Sleeper ships to get the T3 loot?
I suppose somewhere down the line sitting in a belt for hours does sound awful. But this is not the 0.0 we have today with vast tracks of empty, unused space. There will be 2,500 systems and probably 20,000+ people (just a guess but I figure everyone and their cat will have a go) trying to dive in on the first few weeks at any given time. On average there will be 10 (or so) people per system. Yeah...I know it will not work out just like that but I think it is safe to say lurking in a belt to gank ratters will probably net the pirates a steady stream of targets at the outset.
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