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The Time Is Now! Save W-space from the dreaded Pre-Nerf SyndromeÖ!

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Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.02.02 06:32:00 - [31] Originally by: An Anarchyyt It's true...wormholes won't be instances, but lets make them just feel exactly like instances. Not to mention, I know it is extremely fun having to probe all over every system over and over again to make sure there are no people or not. Says the guys who will be taking full advantage of the fact that noone will instantly see him as his roving low mass velator fleet of doom rolls into a scouted out wormhole with a bunch of fat stupid juicy faction tank fitted hulks. Also: inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.02 06:33:00 - [32] Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 02/02/2009 06:34:07 Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 02/02/2009 06:33:46 Originally by: bff Jill Why do you need to 'make sure' there are no people there? You some kind of control freak? If I am looking for people it would seem like the only way to know if they are there or not. Originally by: Zeba Originally by: An Anarchyyt It's true...wormholes won't be instances, but lets make them just feel exactly like instances. Not to mention, I know it is extremely fun having to probe all over every system over and over again to make sure there are no people or not. Says the guys who will be taking full advantage of the fact that noone will instantly see him as his roving low mass velator fleet of doom rolls into a scouted out wormhole with a bunch of fat stupid juicy faction tank fitted hulks. Probably not, I'll get fed up after having to do that for five systems and go back to roving normally. Originally by: CCP Prism X Local and Wormhole Space! Removing local from 0.0 has far reaching mechanical implications which are well beyond the scope of the project. Removing local just from wormhole space has been brought up but is not considered a part of the package we absolutely need to deliver. So it's not a top priority and thus hasn't been decided on. I'm somewhat afraid of people feeling it's too instanced if we do and 0.0 is not delayed. But like I said, outside of our scope. Were local to go away from 0.0 that will apply to wormhole space as well. Now, perhaps we should argue about which Dev is right, or stop trying to pretend this is any different than any other "Local is dumb" thread. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.02.02 06:40:00 - [33] Edited by: Zeba on 02/02/2009 06:41:42 Originally by: An Anarchyyt Now, perhaps we should argue about which Dev is right, or stop trying to pretend this is any different than any other "Local is dumb" thread. This is about backing CCP Whisper opinion of how to arrange the game mechanics of w-space and not an argument. The moar people who back his personal opinion the stronger his hand when he tries to play it. So as you guys are known griefers and love to do anything at all to make people sad pandas do you support CCP Whisper so you can have a chance to spread the Fame and Glory of the Greater Goon to uncharted space or are you wanting to keep the same old tired mechanics where as soon someone infos your pic in local and sees your corp they log and you get no pew pew. Also: Originally by: An Anarchyyt Probably not, I'll get fed up after having to do that for five systems and go back to roving normally. Don't you have lackeys for that? I would if I was in your position. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2009.02.02 06:51:00 - [34] Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Battlestars GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.02 06:54:00 - [35] See, The Greater Goon lives in Delve.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.02.02 07:08:00 - [36] Originally by: An Anarchyyt See, The Greater Goon lives in Delve. Oh my apologies, sorry forgot that was actually a corp with a spotted history with the Goons. Guess I fail basic diplomacy. KK let me rephrase. For the Fame and Greater Glory of the Goonswarm. Also: inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
bff Jill	Posted - 2009.02.02 07:12:00 - [37] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 02/02/2009 06:34:07 Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 02/02/2009 06:33:46 Originally by: bff Jill Why do you need to 'make sure' there are no people there? You some kind of control freak? If I am looking for people it would seem like the only way to know if they are there or not. Well yes but if you are dead set on finding people you are ready to start probing them out anyway. A slight more hassle perhaps? Sure. But it also means that plenty of people who upon seeing someone enter local would start keeping a closer eye on their scanner than usual, will instead just be lazy and only casually glance at it, meaning that if someone IS there you have a better chance of finding them before they run off and escape! So it basically pushes things even further into the proper eve mold of careful people have it pretty good and lazy/stupid people get blown up/scammed/harassed/whatever by careful people. Which is how it should be. also
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.02 07:30:00 - [38] No, not until there are better systems to see hostiles than mashing local scan every 30 seconds and hoping they are within 14 AU. Most of the people in W space will not be in a deadspace area (at most some of the exploration sites will be in deadspace, but not even that is certain) and even with the current probes it will be easy to scan and pinpoint them from outside the range of the on board scanner.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.02.02 07:35:00 - [39] Originally by: Venkul Mul No, not until there are better systems to see hostiles than mashing local scan every 30 seconds and hoping they are within 14 AU. Most of the people in W space will not be in a deadspace area (at most some of the exploration sites will be in deadspace, but not even that is certain) and even with the current probes it will be easy to scan and pinpoint them from outside the range of the on board scanner. Good thing they are introducing a completely new easy to use after you figure it out flexible probing system that will be available for use on any ship with the added feature of reuseable place anywhere you want warp capable probes. Also: Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
FlameGlow Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.02 07:50:00 - [40] Originally by: Zeba Edited by: Zeba on 02/02/2009 07:37:03 Originally by: Venkul Mul No, not until there are better systems to see hostiles than mashing local scan every 30 seconds and hoping they are within 14 AU. Most of the people in W space will not be in a deadspace area (at most some of the exploration sites will be in deadspace, but not even that is certain) and even with the current probes it will be easy to scan and pinpoint them from outside the range of the on board scanner. Good thing they are introducing a completely new easy to use after you figure it out flexible low fitting probe launcher system that will be available for use on any ship with the added feature of reuseable place anywhere you want warp capable probes. And only finds exploration sites, not helping to detect enemy at all _____________ I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button.
Norwest Rymdvagnar AB	Posted - 2009.02.02 07:51:00 - [41] I support this motion. Do you have a newsletter? I may subscribe to it. ***** Rule 27: 'Don't be afraid to be the first to resort to violence.' -The Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates [schlockmercenary.com]
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.02.02 07:59:00 - [42] Originally by: Venkul Mul And only finds exploration sites, not helping to detect enemy at all Hmmm. Thought they hinted that there would be the same two launcher types a 'big' do it all type and a 'small' ship/wormhole prober. Well if not then the 'big' launcher will still be an intergal part of your exploration fleet and so will have full access to every part of the new scanning mechanics.
Alex V0X2 Minmatar Exiled. Veritas Immortalis	Posted - 2009.02.02 08:29:00 - [43] Heard there was cake to be had if we agree too? \o/
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N.	Posted - 2009.02.02 08:30:00 - [44] Originally by: Zeba Edited by: Zeba on 02/02/2009 05:36:10 Originally by: CCP Whisper Originally by: Rex Lashar How is local affected in these new systems under the new map and scanner changes? How is it affected everywhere else? How local chat will work in wormhole systems and the degree to which we will roll any changes out to the rest of the EVE universe is still under discussion. Personally I want local to be in delayed mode in wormhole systems. A great opportunity is being laid at our, the rightious pod pilots of New Eden, feet to voice our will in a grand concerto of solidarity! If you want w-space to be truely free and wild then let CCP Whisper know you are behind his epic idea to make a genuine radical game mechanic change in how Eve is played for the betterment of us all. Thumbs up if you are down with CCP Whisper. edit: whoops forgot to add the madatory Discuss! Flame! Troll Away! I'm down. Delayed local!
Kaivos Caldari Pyydys	Posted - 2009.02.02 08:35:00 - [45] i find it hard to believe that ships capable of interstellar travel don't have a simple automatic warning system that warns if other ships enter the same solar system. local takes care of this now. but if its removed its going to be total **** to rat or do anything other than pvp. smashes the scan button
Piotr Anatolev Gallente The Geriatrics	Posted - 2009.02.02 08:44:00 - [46] Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.
bff Jill	Posted - 2009.02.02 08:47:00 - [47] well see due to light speed delay there is no way for your ship to detect the easily visible and blatantly obvious (in space) radiation that all of our ships are spewing every which way, until a certain amount of time has passed=p
ori thermos	Posted - 2009.02.02 08:48:00 - [48] Yer I agree lets get rid of local totally, saves on smack
Kytanos Termek Caldari Darkstorm Command Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.02.02 08:51:00 - [49] I agree
Mila Degosi	Posted - 2009.02.02 09:18:00 - [50] Edited by: Mila Degosi on 02/02/2009 09:20:19 I hadn't realized dropping a probe and scanning each and every system you wind up in was a fun gameplay mechanic. Obviously all you hardcore PVPers know better than me, because you like to blow stupid people up; but do you really need to remove local to do that? Seems to me replacing it with a different mechanic would just be a horrid timesink. Would you recommend an entirely different mechanic to replace it? Would you enjoy it more if you you had to drop a probe every 20 au of a system to determine if there were targets present? If you were to disable the display of specific individuals, but display purples, greens, and other mutual blues, would that be okay with you?

CCP Prism X Gallente C C P CCP	Posted - 2009.02.02 09:19:00 - [51] I really appreciate how you've managed to imply that Whisper needs to fight his team over what nice to have's we'll push into the project, before release, through some weird game of leverages, cloaks and daggers. Sounds like good fun. But I can't agree. An Anarchyyt has already tried to explain what I said in the comment thread (and I have the feeling you've tried to re-interpret that as me having something against removing local, let me correct that right now) and you've just danced around that. Here's my personal opinion (regardless of my feelings on local being removed all together): I'm not very comfortable with my work the past 3 months feeling any less like real EVE space ''just because''. Nor am I willing to devalue this new addition to EVE by making it some sort of test-ground for mechanical changes that can't even be tested there. Hidden space is not 0.0, it's not designed to be like 0.0, stop applying 0.0 to hidden space. If we were to roll this out with delayed local we'd have absolutely 0 information after 3 months as we would lack any control set to reference. Like most people I play with I do want local gone. But not as an afterthought, nor as some research project. Bring some reasoning to the table. It's not enough to want free candy. Everyone wants free candy. But I can invent ways to get free candy for you where the implementation is so bad that you'd never want to see candy again in your whole life.

Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.02.02 09:29:00 - [52] Originally by: CCP Prism X I really appreciate how you've managed to imply that Whisper needs to fight his team over what nice to have's we'll push into the project, before release, through some weird game of leverages, cloaks and daggers. Sounds like good fun. I try. Originally by: CCP Prism X But I can't agree. An Anarchyyt has already tried to explain what I said in the comment thread (and I have the feeling you've tried to re-interpret that as me having something against removing local, let me correct that right now) and you've just danced around that. Here's my personal opinion (regardless of my feelings on local being removed all together): I'm not very comfortable with my work the past 3 months feeling any less like real EVE space ''just because''. Nor am I willing to devalue this new addition to EVE by making it some sort of test-ground for mechanical changes that can't even be tested there. Hidden space is not 0.0, it's not designed to be like 0.0, stop applying 0.0 to hidden space. If we were to roll this out with delayed local we'd have absolutely 0 information after 3 months as we would lack any control set to reference. Like most people I play with I do want local gone. But not as an afterthought, nor as some research project. Bring some reasoning to the table. It's not enough to want free candy. Everyone wants free candy. But I can invent ways to get free candy for you where the implementation is so bad that you'd never want to see candy again in your whole life. Awesome! Thanks for clarifying the info and now I can contunue planning out my first expedition. p.s. Also wasn't implying you were not in favor of an eventual local removal I was just standing behind the dev who was offering what I and apparently others want and convieniently ignoring the opposition argument(An Anarchyrrt) no matter how much they might be (temporarily)correct. By all means take your time to impliment it and I will gleefully look forward to the day it happens and can be implimented CorrectlyÖ. inappropriate signature. ~WeatherMan
Glengrant TOHA Heavy Industries	Posted - 2009.02.02 09:33:00 - [53] What's good about introducing delayed local with w-space is exactly because it's not regular 0.0. It's a matter of psychology. Every time you change something that's already there (e.g. instant local in 0.0) there is outrage by people who are used to how things are and will whine about any change. But introduce it with a new feature - in this case w-space - old stuff (the known eve cluster) remains unchanged. It's easier to accept when it's just one new facet of a new featureset - instead of opening the can of worms that you get when you introduce it into what people already know. --- Save the forum: Think before you post. ISK BUYER = LOSER EVE TV- Bring it back! Laptop, NVidia7900GS, Ubuntu 8.04, WINE
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2009.02.02 09:38:00 - [54] While I understand the reasoning for removing local (but not neccesarily agree to it) a big downside to me is the loss of interaction. Sure there's lots of people going "DON'T TALK IN LOCAL!!!!#@!@#" like they're mentally deranged and are uncapable normal conversation, but this is still an MMO and MMO's are about interaction. Ofcourse you could say that that's what corps and alliances are for but if you never really chat/interact with others how will you ever meet new friends/adversaries. How BORING will it become!
Karlemgne Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.02.02 09:41:00 - [55] Yes
SentryRaven KIA Corp	Posted - 2009.02.02 09:45:00 - [56] Lots of pro's, lot's of cons. It all comes down to "adapt or die" in the end. CCP, any chance of testing this on Sisi or Multi?
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.02.02 09:46:00 - [57] Originally by: Tzar'rim While I understand the reasoning for removing local (but not neccesarily agree to it) a big downside to me is the loss of interaction. Sure there's lots of people going "DON'T TALK IN LOCAL!!!!#@!@#" like they're mentally deranged and are uncapable normal conversation, but this is still an MMO and MMO's are about interaction. Ofcourse you could say that that's what corps and alliances are for but if you never really chat/interact with others how will you ever meet new friends/adversaries. How BORING will it become! Removing local does not mean removing the chat aspect just the neon sign effect when you jump into a system so everyone knows exactly who you are and can near instantly make a descision to fight or flee. Great for empire and to a much lesser extent 0.0 it just seems the total wilderness aspect of w-space would be enhanced in some peoples opinions including certain devs. but als implimentation with the now apparent ****ton of new features will be too much to Q&A properly so I guess time to put the initiative on hold until winter after they have time to digest the new W-space data. Also: Still Please visit your user settings to re-enable images. if humanly possible.
Tzar'rim	Posted - 2009.02.02 09:55:00 - [58] You can talk all you want but it still stands; if you lose the main way of interacting with unknown players you fall into some sort of autistic gameplay; everyone in their own little box of friends and no interaction at all. Lets be honest, you want to remove local since that would give you more targets and more targets is good ofcourse. Even better if that means that effort is rewarded over being passive. Still, simply removing it and going "there, that's done" is the wrong way to do it and I haven't come up, or read a realistic, reasonable and intelligent idea on how to change local without the downsides.
Sade Onyx	Posted - 2009.02.02 10:08:00 - [59] Put game mechanics aside for a moment, from a purly 'EVE lore' point of view there is no reason why a local wouldn't exist. Remember, unlike Startrek where ships warp to wherever they want, in Eve we must travel through star gates. These star gates appear to be massive cities in space (like stations) and the govern, record, prevent, alow, log and probably communicate with the entire 'gate network' every single jump and action that takes place - Which makes sense because otherwise systems wouldnt have a security status, and stargates wouldn't be able to prevent you from jumping just after you have initiated combat. So, knowing this and imagining a super high-tech universe where computers are so powerfull they easily compute in Astrometric Units its virtually impossible to imagine that information about what ships are in a system(local) would be absent. In fact, the only reason I can see for someone being in a system and yet not reporting in local is if they by-pass the star-gate - As with what happens in 'W-Space'. (Unless of course there was some kind of law which prevented stargates from giving ships that kind of information.) 'Delayed local' Vs 'Chat reveal Local' - I understand Chat revealing local in W-Space but im not sure about delayed. There would have to be some kind of Sci-Fi reason why you are suddenly aware of other ships in the vastness of space other than just a simple 5 minute delay(or whatever).. If you use a probe and find someone, sure.. put him in local then, or if they get close enough to be on your overview... please, put some kind of technical reason there, rather than just a simple inexplicable delay.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.02.02 10:08:00 - [60] Originally by: Tzar'rim Lets be honest, you want to remove local since that would give you more targets and more targets is good ofcourse. Wrong I want it removed for greater safety on my expeditions into w-space. Moast players are lazy and won't be arsed to have to go throught the motions of a quick manual scan at the planets and so will leave me alone. This promotes smarter tactics past probing out a wormhole checking local to see if someone is there and if not going to the next system. This puts all the power in the roamers hands as they only have to spend a few seconds to let let local load a system instead of having to do a proper scout. We will eventually have this feature as it just makes sense an all accounts in w-space but the devs have all the info so I will not emorage against their position just try to subtly(or not) bump up its sense of priority.

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