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Reaver Babe
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:15:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Reaver Babe on 02/02/2009 14:15:35
I've heard a lot of people whining and complaining about the state of blasters post QR, but never had a chance myself to see if the complaints were justified because I mainly fly Amarr now, have been since they buffed the zealot with its fifth turret.
Last night however I decided to take out my Deimos because I felt the need for something different. Rather than taking it into PVP I decided to test it on corpmates to see what changes needed to be made to the fitting to make it viable post QR. I tested it on a corpmate also in a cruiser hull ship. He sat there perfectly still, while I orbitted him with my MWD off at optimal.
All gunnery support skills at 4. I tried with weapons grouped. Roughly every third or fourth volley from the entire GROUP missed completely. What the hell? I then switched to my zealot and orbitted him at ranges varying from 7500 all the way out to 45km, and didn't miss hardly at all. Not only that, but the hits themselves were for MUCH more despite him having EM as his highest resist, showing that in the blaster group, only some of the guns were hitting when a volley did land.
My qestion is...
CCP what are you thinking? Are all blaster ships not named taranis supposed to just retire now?
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2009.02.02 14:21:00 -
[2]
YUP
While blasters have better tracking on paper most ppl know exactly how much range effects it, unfortunately none of those ppl actually work for ccp.....
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spud maur
Gallente
Garoun Investment Bank
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Posted - 2009.02.02 15:06:00 -
[3]
hmm i usualy turn off my mwd when im in that close and ive no problem with hitting 9 outa 10 but then i do have all my support skills to 5, and i do realise u are speaking from a pvp view so u would prol;ly need teh mwd on |
Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.02 15:18:00 -
[4]
So you did hit him with pulse lasers when orbitting at blaster optimal, but not when doing the same with blasters? Was your zealot going much slower or do you have special pulse lasers with higher tracking than blasters?
Also the deimos is arguably the worst of all blaster ships isk/performance wise.
---------------------------------------------
 Originally by: Neth'Rae
Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Leiara Knight
Gallente
The Oblivion Guard
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Posted - 2009.02.02 15:19:00 -
[5]
Some people will hide - they can't stand the noise. However, we're freedom fighters and we don't got no choice.
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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2009.02.02 15:28:00 -
[6]
blasters are fine all in all, only thing id say is they could do with a bit more damage to seperate from autos and pulses a bit more - they are closest ranged. everyone knows in eve closest means highest dps.
You must be doing somthing wrong.
If your moaning about not lasting long enough to kill anyone, you hit the nail on the head - its the ships that use blasters rather than the actual modules that need love.
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Reaver Babe
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Posted - 2009.02.02 15:44:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Furb Killer
So you did hit him with pulse lasers when orbitting at blaster optimal, but not when doing the same with blasters? Was your zealot going much slower or do you have special pulse lasers with higher tracking than blasters?
Also the deimos is arguably the worst of all blaster ships isk/performance wise.
No, at blaster optimal I hit with blasters 2 out of every 3 times. This was orbitting a stationary object with cruiser sig radius MWD turned off, AT OPTIMAL with faction antimatter loaded.
With the zealot, I had a range anywhere from 7500 to 40km+ with scorch and amarr navy MF where I was able to orbit the target and reliably hit with the MWD on OR off. The individual volleys hit the target for more on the zealot as well despite the fact that the target had higher em resist than anything else, which could ONLY mean that with the group volleys the deimos was only hitting with some of its guns while the zealot hit with all. and bear in mind this was with ion blasters, not neutrons, so tracking shouldn't have been THAT much of an issue on the deimos.
target was a plated maller with a logistics ship repping it.
so, the blaster ship even at optimal range, orbitting the stationary target with its mwd turned off and faction ammo loaded, missed roughly 1/3 of the time. when shooting at something bigger i can imagine this is probably not an issue, but when firing on other cruiser sized target i can see this being crippling and losing you a lot of fights.
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Reaver Babe
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Posted - 2009.02.02 15:45:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Dr Fighter
blasters are fine all in all, only thing id say is they could do with a bit more damage to seperate from autos and pulses a bit more - they are closest ranged. everyone knows in eve closest means highest dps.
You must be doing somthing wrong.
If your moaning about not lasting long enough to kill anyone, you hit the nail on the head - its the ships that use blasters rather than the actual modules that need love.
that is a completely different matter alltogether that i won't whine for hours about in this thread...
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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2009.02.02 15:52:00 -
[9]
you know people strangely consider effective range to be optimal+falloff ? so trying to orbit at blaster optimal is not what you should do with a blaster snip. you should be at optimal+falloff. you were clearly doing it wrong !!!
that pulse ships have no issue at their rated optimal is a minor inconsistency that should not be bothered with ...
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the above is a rant, not to be taken seriously .... |
Psiri
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Posted - 2009.02.02 15:54:00 -
[10]
Light blasters are excellent, mediums are decent and can be used effectively on ships lke the Brutix. As for large blasters they're fine aswell, the problem isn't the blasters but rather battleships' speed in conjunction with the mwd/scrambler changes. Tbh, it's not a very big issue either, the gankathron was king of the hill for far too long. |
Cristl
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Posted - 2009.02.02 16:33:00 -
[11]
If you orbit at full speed at blaster optimal of course you will miss a lot. That's how tracking works in this game.
All you learned is that blasters shouldn't be used this way. Either get in close and manage transversal to be as low as possible, or kite at around optimal + 50% falloff if you have caught someone with long range guns (i.e. their pants down).
The fact that pulses hit so well at close range is a bit silly though - they should have a harder time tracking very close targets than they currently do imo. |
Myra2007
Shafrak Industries
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Posted - 2009.02.02 17:09:00 -
[12]
Why would you orbit a ship of the same size? You want to orbit bigger ships so they miss you.
If you want to hit ships of the same size or smaller then minimize transversal i.e. issue a keep at distance command or do it manually.
Plus if you're missing due to tracking and your enemy has lower tracking (f.e. if he has pulse lasers fitted) then he will miss even more. So not only do you have a sizable advantage when it comes to dps in close range in the first place, but your good tracking will also guarantee that your enemy always suffers even more (or equally at worst) in a situation where tracking is an issue.
--
Originally by: kublai on Ankhesentapemkah
That said, the "i'm a girl who plays your computer game and i'm not that ugly" has always been a certain winner in the mmo world
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.02.02 17:30:00 -
[13]
Try using some ammo other than the shortest possible range.
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249km locking? |
Joss Sparq
Caldari
ANZAC ALLIANCE
Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.02 17:35:00 -
[14]
"IBTBE"
Also, I find Null works quite nicely on my Ishkur. Your mileage may vary.
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Takeshi Yamato
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Posted - 2009.02.02 17:38:00 -
[15]
Quote:
I orbitted him with my MWD off at optimal.
Optimal on blasters is so short that you're outrunning your own tracking if you orbit at that range.
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
DEATH'S LEGION
Red Box.
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Posted - 2009.02.02 17:42:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 02/02/2009 17:45:47
Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 02/02/2009 17:42:54
Well first off, the really short-ranged weapons usually do not hit very well at their optimal range, try to use medium ACs in their optimal, you'll find you will miss 100% of the time if the target (or your ship) is moving at all.
Second, against smaller or same-sized targets you'll not want to orbit as tracking is already poor against those, try to keep transversal low so you can hit properly at short ranges. You'll basically do this by making passes, i.e. if you want to fight at say 2km you have to fly towards the enemy, move past him and turn around once you reach your desired combat distance, rinse and repeat.
Quote:
Optimal on blasters is so short that you're outrunning your own tracking if you orbit at that range.
Edit: you need to know the 'sweet spot' of your guns against different target types, I'd suggest using your gun statistics (mounted on ship, with skills applied) together with the tracking guide to find out the best distance/speed for different target sizes/speeds.
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Endless Subversion
The Accursed
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Posted - 2009.02.02 18:46:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Reaver Babe
Edited by: Reaver Babe on 02/02/2009 14:15:35
I've heard a lot of people whining and complaining about the state of blasters post QR, but never had a chance myself to see if the complaints were justified because I mainly fly Amarr now, have been since they buffed the zealot with its fifth turret.
Last night however I decided to take out my Deimos because I felt the need for something different. Rather than taking it into PVP I decided to test it on corpmates to see what changes needed to be made to the fitting to make it viable post QR. I tested it on a corpmate also in a cruiser hull ship. He sat there perfectly still, while I orbitted him with my MWD off at optimal.
All gunnery support skills at 4. I tried with weapons grouped. Roughly every third or fourth volley from the entire GROUP missed completely. What the hell? I then switched to my zealot and orbitted him at ranges varying from 7500 all the way out to 45km, and didn't miss hardly at all. Not only that, but the hits themselves were for MUCH more despite him having EM as his highest resist, showing that in the blaster group, only some of the guns were hitting when a volley did land.
This post reeks of trolling, but I'll respond like it's meant at face value.
What a seriously dumb test. You're in a deimos and you orbit a stationary cruiser at somewhere between 2.3 and 3.5km and complain that you don't hit it well. Tracking wasn't changed. Webs were changed.
A cruiser has a smallish sig. Don't orbit him. You're in a gank boat, you want to max your dps vs a crusier sized target. If he's stationary, laugh and kill your own speed. If he's moving, web him and PILOT your ship to min transversal. I notice you ignored your falloff and your drones.
Yes, a zealot has a better optimal range. With the same number of dmg mods the zealot does 73% of the dmg the deimos does, before drones. So even at optimal + 1/2 falloff you're out dmging zealot before drones. That means at 7km orbit you out dmg the zealot and out track the zealot BEFORE drones. And then you have 50m3 of drones.
You also ignore the utility high of the deimos (neut for tacklers, heat sink for extra overload?)
Also, assuming same base speeds, if you use 2.3km (which I bet you did to skew everything) and 7.5km the transversal is approx 3 times as large for the deimos compared to the zealot. Yes, blasters don't track 3x as well as lasers. Very good.
If you want a ranged dps ship use the zealot (zealot at 7.5km is epic fail btw) as scorch gives great range and tracking at large ranges isn't a big deal.
If you want a small, quick gank ship that is effective INSIDE web range (small gang styles) and deals max dps at close ranges then you bring the deimos.
Finally, learn to pilot your ship. |
fuxinos
Caldari
Guys 0f Sarcasm
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Posted - 2009.02.02 19:10:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Reaver Babe
With the zealot, I had a range anywhere from 7500 to 40km+ with scorch and amarr navy MF where I was able to orbit the target and reliably hit with the MWD on OR off.
Thats why you need to try to reduce transversal on turretships....
The closer you are, the higher your transversal, nothingelse but your own fault if you miss in optimal range.
Solution, orbit slower. |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.02.02 20:27:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 02/02/2009 20:28:21
Originally by: Endless Subversion
Edited by: Endless Subversion on 02/02/2009 19:07:11
Originally by: Reaver Babe
Edited by: Reaver Babe on 02/02/2009 14:15:35
I've heard a lot of people whining and complaining about the state of blasters post QR, but never had a chance myself to see if the complaints were justified because I mainly fly Amarr now, have been since they buffed the zealot with its fifth turret.
Last night however I decided to take out my Deimos because I felt the need for something different. Rather than taking it into PVP I decided to test it on corpmates to see what changes needed to be made to the fitting to make it viable post QR. I tested it on a corpmate also in a cruiser hull ship. He sat there perfectly still, while I orbitted him with my MWD off at optimal.
All gunnery support skills at 4. I tried with weapons grouped. Roughly every third or fourth volley from the entire GROUP missed completely. What the hell? I then switched to my zealot and orbitted him at ranges varying from 7500 all the way out to 45km, and didn't miss hardly at all. Not only that, but the hits themselves were for MUCH more despite him having EM as his highest resist, showing that in the blaster group, only some of the guns were hitting when a volley did land.
This post reeks of trolling, but I'll respond like it's meant at face value.
What a seriously dumb test. You're in a deimos and you orbit a stationary cruiser at somewhere between 2.3 and 3.5km and complain that you don't hit it well. Tracking wasn't changed. Webs were changed.
A cruiser has a smallish sig. Don't orbit him. You're in a gank boat, you want to max your dps vs a crusier sized target. If he's stationary, laugh and kill your own speed. If he's moving, web him and PILOT your ship to min transversal. I notice you ignored your falloff and your drones.
Yes, a zealot has a better optimal range. With the same number of dmg mods the zealot does 73% of the dmg the deimos does. So even at optimal + 1/2 falloff you're out dmging zealot. That means at 7km orbit you out dmg the zealot and out track the zealot.
You also ignore the utility high of the deimos (neut for tacklers, heat sink for extra overload?)
Also, assuming same base speeds, if you use 2.3km (which I bet you did to skew everything) and 7.5km the transversal is approx 3 times as large for the deimos compared to the zealot. Yes, blasters don't track 3x as well as lasers. Very good.
If you want a ranged dps ship use the zealot (zealot at 7.5km is epic fail btw) as scorch gives great range and tracking at large ranges isn't a big deal.
If you want a small, quick gank ship that is effective INSIDE web range (small gang styles) and deals max dps at close ranges then you bring the deimos.
Finally, learn to pilot your ship.
            
Awesome post, awesome.
Nano***s are still in the mindset that you have to orbit at all times. There's NOTHING wrong with just sitting right next to something and frontloading damage.
What do you use as a 'heatsink' up top? Never really bothered with overheating, whats the best heatsink?
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Friends Forever |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2009.02.02 20:46:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Endless Subversion
Edited by: Endless Subversion on 02/02/2009 19:07:11
Originally by: Reaver Babe
Edited by: Reaver Babe on 02/02/2009 14:15:35
I've heard a lot of people whining and complaining about the state of blasters post QR, but never had a chance myself to see if the complaints were justified because I mainly fly Amarr now, have been since they buffed the zealot with its fifth turret.
Last night however I decided to take out my Deimos because I felt the need for something different. Rather than taking it into PVP I decided to test it on corpmates to see what changes needed to be made to the fitting to make it viable post QR. I tested it on a corpmate also in a cruiser hull ship. He sat there perfectly still, while I orbitted him with my MWD off at optimal.
All gunnery support skills at 4. I tried with weapons grouped. Roughly every third or fourth volley from the entire GROUP missed completely. What the hell? I then switched to my zealot and orbitted him at ranges varying from 7500 all the way out to 45km, and didn't miss hardly at all. Not only that, but the hits themselves were for MUCH more despite him having EM as his highest resist, showing that in the blaster group, only some of the guns were hitting when a volley did land.
This post reeks of trolling, but I'll respond like it's meant at face value.
What a seriously dumb test. You're in a deimos and you orbit a stationary cruiser at somewhere between 2.3 and 3.5km and complain that you don't hit it well. Tracking wasn't changed. Webs were changed.
A cruiser has a smallish sig. Don't orbit him. You're in a gank boat, you want to max your dps vs a crusier sized target. If he's stationary, laugh and kill your own speed. If he's moving, web him and PILOT your ship to min transversal. I notice you ignored your falloff and your drones.
Yes, a zealot has a better optimal range. With the same number of dmg mods the zealot does 73% of the dmg the deimos does. So even at optimal + 1/2 falloff you're out dmging zealot. That means at 7km orbit you out dmg the zealot and out track the zealot.
You also ignore the utility high of the deimos (neut for tacklers, heat sink for extra overload?)
Also, assuming same base speeds, if you use 2.3km (which I bet you did to skew everything) and 7.5km the transversal is approx 3 times as large for the deimos compared to the zealot. Yes, blasters don't track 3x as well as lasers. Very good.
If you want a ranged dps ship use the zealot (zealot at 7.5km is epic fail btw) as scorch gives great range and tracking at large ranges isn't a big deal.
If you want a small, quick gank ship that is effective INSIDE web range (small gang styles) and deals max dps at close ranges then you bring the deimos.
Finally, learn to pilot your ship.
well since blasters I guess have the best tracking, this works actualy as a tank. you orbit close to your limit transversal while relying on better gun tracking than your enemy. however with blasters, you have to go to falloff to make better damage work while giving your enemy more range to work with transversal himself.
sitting close and minimising transversal only works if you are sure that the DPS to EHP ratio is in your favor. once it is not, you are going to die no matter how your DPS advantage looks on paper. so "tracking tanking" is the solution (which does not work :-) so you going to die anyway ... |
Endless Subversion
The Accursed
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Posted - 2009.02.02 20:51:00 -
[21]
Another quick thought:
The way tracking works, if the sig of the target is 3x bigger, your tracking is 3x better. So by the time you're shooting a BS (as opposed to a cruiser)orbitting at your optimal in a deimos you're probably hitting nearly everytime.
Doesn't matter what module you use as a heatsink. |
Karrade Krise
Galatic P0RN Starz
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Posted - 2009.02.02 20:58:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Nano***s are still in the mindset that you have to orbit at all times. There's NOTHING wrong with just sitting right next to something and frontloading damage.
I was never a nano*** or anything...but I've been stuck on this mindset for the longest time and I'm only just now realizing the significance of tracking and orbiting with gank webrange boats... 
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.02.02 21:01:00 -
[23]
wait, I don't orbit stuff at 1km in a blastership
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AnKahn
Caldari
The Giant Squid Corp.
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Posted - 2009.02.02 21:07:00 -
[24]
Blaster ships seem to consistantly top the killmails.
That's the real EvE world right there. |
Omarvelous
Destry's Lounge
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Posted - 2009.02.02 22:17:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Myra2007
Why would you orbit a ship of the same size? You want to orbit bigger ships so they miss you.
OP - your experiment was flawed. You only orbit larger ships. Equal and smaller you dive at them or lurch away in as straight a line as possible. You want to have superior to equal tracking to your opponent. |
Ravenal
The Fated
E.Y
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Posted - 2009.02.02 22:25:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Reaver Babe
I've heard a lot of people whining and complaining about the state of blasters post QR, but never had a chance myself to see if the complaints were justified because I mainly fly Amarr now, have been since they buffed the zealot with its fifth turret.
Last night however I decided to take out my Deimos because I felt the need for something different. Rather than taking it into PVP I decided to test it on corpmates to see what changes needed to be made to the fitting to make it viable post QR. I tested it on a corpmate also in a cruiser hull ship. He sat there perfectly still, while I orbitted him with my MWD off at optimal.
All gunnery support skills at 4. I tried with weapons grouped. Roughly every third or fourth volley from the entire GROUP missed completely. What the hell? I then switched to my zealot and orbitted him at ranges varying from 7500 all the way out to 45km, and didn't miss hardly at all. Not only that, but the hits themselves were for MUCH more despite him having EM as his highest resist, showing that in the blaster group, only some of the guns were hitting when a volley did land.
My qestion is...
CCP what are you thinking? Are all blaster ships not named taranis supposed to just retire now?
"I orbitted him with my MWD off at optimal"
Here is your problem! |
Psiri
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Posted - 2009.02.03 06:05:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Omarvelous
You only orbit larger ships. Equal and smaller you dive at them or lurch away in as straight a line as possible. You want to have superior to equal tracking to your opponent.
Well, or if you can orbit fast enough to avoid all or enough incoming damage to tank it through shield recharge or armor repair. Ie. for blaster frigates orbiting is a perfectly valid tactic, or cruisers with light blasters (which have high enough tracking to cope with it). |
Diefer
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.02.03 10:34:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Dr Fighter
everyone knows in eve closest means highest dps.
While in RL knife < gun < machine gun < artillery < ICBM
Sometimes it seems, that when laying initial design for eve, CCP intentionally removed every connection to reality.
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hellsknights
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2009.02.03 10:56:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Psiri
Edited by: Psiri on 02/02/2009 16:39:19
Light blasters are excellent, mediums are decent and can be used effectively on ships lke the Brutix. As for large blasters they're fine aswell, the problem isn't the blasters but rather battleships' speed in conjunction with the mwd/scrambler changes. Tbh, it's not a very big issue either, the gankathron was king of the hill for far too long.
EDIT: Oh and remember kids, electrons are the new neutrons!
Why are electrons the new neutrons, fill me in on this theory pls.
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uzumoreru
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Posted - 2009.02.03 11:11:00 -
[30]
If you orbit a zealot (for example) in your deimos at blaster optimal, how many hits does he score?
If you are orbitting against a similarly sized target in a blasterboat, you aim to increase the ratio of your dps to your targets.
A numerical example (numbers made up): In a 1km orbit at 200m/s a deimos hits 3/4 of the time, so doing 75% of rated dps (slightly more factoring in drones but no matter). The zealot being orbitted at 200m/s by the deimos is hiting 1/8 of the time, doing 12.5% of its rated dps.
In this instance you can see that the deimos is sacrificing kill speed to maintain its buffer, or to bring damage down so it can tank it on a single rep.
The damage discrepancy clearly favours the deimos, much like if the fight were beyond 10km or so, the damage would favour the zealot as it is fighting in optimal, where the deimos is in falloff.
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