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Reaver Babe	Posted - 2009.02.02 14:15:00 - [1] Edited by: Reaver Babe on 02/02/2009 14:15:35 I've heard a lot of people whining and complaining about the state of blasters post QR, but never had a chance myself to see if the complaints were justified because I mainly fly Amarr now, have been since they buffed the zealot with its fifth turret. Last night however I decided to take out my Deimos because I felt the need for something different. Rather than taking it into PVP I decided to test it on corpmates to see what changes needed to be made to the fitting to make it viable post QR. I tested it on a corpmate also in a cruiser hull ship. He sat there perfectly still, while I orbitted him with my MWD off at optimal. All gunnery support skills at 4. I tried with weapons grouped. Roughly every third or fourth volley from the entire GROUP missed completely. What the hell? I then switched to my zealot and orbitted him at ranges varying from 7500 all the way out to 45km, and didn't miss hardly at all. Not only that, but the hits themselves were for MUCH more despite him having EM as his highest resist, showing that in the blaster group, only some of the guns were hitting when a volley did land. My qestion is... CCP what are you thinking? Are all blaster ships not named taranis supposed to just retire now?
lebrata Hedion University	Posted - 2009.02.02 14:21:00 - [2] YUP While blasters have better tracking on paper most ppl know exactly how much range effects it, unfortunately none of those ppl actually work for ccp.....
spud maur Gallente Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2009.02.02 15:06:00 - [3] hmm i usualy turn off my mwd when im in that close and ive no problem with hitting 9 outa 10 but then i do have all my support skills to 5, and i do realise u are speaking from a pvp view so u would prol;ly need teh mwd on
Furb Killer Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.02 15:18:00 - [4] So you did hit him with pulse lasers when orbitting at blaster optimal, but not when doing the same with blasters? Was your zealot going much slower or do you have special pulse lasers with higher tracking than blasters? Also the deimos is arguably the worst of all blaster ships isk/performance wise. --------------------------------------------- Originally by: Neth'Rae Military experts are calling this a troll.
Leiara Knight Gallente The Oblivion Guard	Posted - 2009.02.02 15:19:00 - [5] Some people will hide - they can't stand the noise. However, we're freedom fighters and we don't got no choice.
Dr Fighter	Posted - 2009.02.02 15:28:00 - [6] blasters are fine all in all, only thing id say is they could do with a bit more damage to seperate from autos and pulses a bit more - they are closest ranged. everyone knows in eve closest means highest dps. You must be doing somthing wrong. If your moaning about not lasting long enough to kill anyone, you hit the nail on the head - its the ships that use blasters rather than the actual modules that need love.
Reaver Babe	Posted - 2009.02.02 15:44:00 - [7] Originally by: Furb Killer So you did hit him with pulse lasers when orbitting at blaster optimal, but not when doing the same with blasters? Was your zealot going much slower or do you have special pulse lasers with higher tracking than blasters? Also the deimos is arguably the worst of all blaster ships isk/performance wise. No, at blaster optimal I hit with blasters 2 out of every 3 times. This was orbitting a stationary object with cruiser sig radius MWD turned off, AT OPTIMAL with faction antimatter loaded. With the zealot, I had a range anywhere from 7500 to 40km+ with scorch and amarr navy MF where I was able to orbit the target and reliably hit with the MWD on OR off. The individual volleys hit the target for more on the zealot as well despite the fact that the target had higher em resist than anything else, which could ONLY mean that with the group volleys the deimos was only hitting with some of its guns while the zealot hit with all. and bear in mind this was with ion blasters, not neutrons, so tracking shouldn't have been THAT much of an issue on the deimos. target was a plated maller with a logistics ship repping it. so, the blaster ship even at optimal range, orbitting the stationary target with its mwd turned off and faction ammo loaded, missed roughly 1/3 of the time. when shooting at something bigger i can imagine this is probably not an issue, but when firing on other cruiser sized target i can see this being crippling and losing you a lot of fights.
Reaver Babe	Posted - 2009.02.02 15:45:00 - [8] Originally by: Dr Fighter blasters are fine all in all, only thing id say is they could do with a bit more damage to seperate from autos and pulses a bit more - they are closest ranged. everyone knows in eve closest means highest dps. You must be doing somthing wrong. If your moaning about not lasting long enough to kill anyone, you hit the nail on the head - its the ships that use blasters rather than the actual modules that need love. that is a completely different matter alltogether that i won't whine for hours about in this thread...
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2009.02.02 15:52:00 - [9] you know people strangely consider effective range to be optimal+falloff ? so trying to orbit at blaster optimal is not what you should do with a blaster snip. you should be at optimal+falloff. you were clearly doing it wrong !!! that pulse ships have no issue at their rated optimal is a minor inconsistency that should not be bothered with ... ----------------- the above is a rant, not to be taken seriously ....
Psiri	Posted - 2009.02.02 15:54:00 - [10] Light blasters are excellent, mediums are decent and can be used effectively on ships lke the Brutix. As for large blasters they're fine aswell, the problem isn't the blasters but rather battleships' speed in conjunction with the mwd/scrambler changes. Tbh, it's not a very big issue either, the gankathron was king of the hill for far too long.
Cristl	Posted - 2009.02.02 16:33:00 - [11] If you orbit at full speed at blaster optimal of course you will miss a lot. That's how tracking works in this game. All you learned is that blasters shouldn't be used this way. Either get in close and manage transversal to be as low as possible, or kite at around optimal + 50% falloff if you have caught someone with long range guns (i.e. their pants down). The fact that pulses hit so well at close range is a bit silly though - they should have a harder time tracking very close targets than they currently do imo.
Myra2007 Shafrak Industries	Posted - 2009.02.02 17:09:00 - [12] Why would you orbit a ship of the same size? You want to orbit bigger ships so they miss you. If you want to hit ships of the same size or smaller then minimize transversal i.e. issue a keep at distance command or do it manually. Plus if you're missing due to tracking and your enemy has lower tracking (f.e. if he has pulse lasers fitted) then he will miss even more. So not only do you have a sizable advantage when it comes to dps in close range in the first place, but your good tracking will also guarantee that your enemy always suffers even more (or equally at worst) in a situation where tracking is an issue. -- Originally by: kublai on Ankhesentapemkah That said, the "i'm a girl who plays your computer game and i'm not that ugly" has always been a certain winner in the mmo world
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.02.02 17:30:00 - [13] Try using some ammo other than the shortest possible range. -- 249km locking?
Joss Sparq Caldari ANZAC ALLIANCE Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.02 17:35:00 - [14] "IBTBE" Also, I find Null works quite nicely on my Ishkur. Your mileage may vary.
Takeshi Yamato	Posted - 2009.02.02 17:38:00 - [15] Quote: I orbitted him with my MWD off at optimal. Optimal on blasters is so short that you're outrunning your own tracking if you orbit at that range.
Lilith Velkor Minmatar DEATH'S LEGION Red Box.	Posted - 2009.02.02 17:42:00 - [16] Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 02/02/2009 17:45:47 Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 02/02/2009 17:42:54 Well first off, the really short-ranged weapons usually do not hit very well at their optimal range, try to use medium ACs in their optimal, you'll find you will miss 100% of the time if the target (or your ship) is moving at all. Second, against smaller or same-sized targets you'll not want to orbit as tracking is already poor against those, try to keep transversal low so you can hit properly at short ranges. You'll basically do this by making passes, i.e. if you want to fight at say 2km you have to fly towards the enemy, move past him and turn around once you reach your desired combat distance, rinse and repeat. Quote: Optimal on blasters is so short that you're outrunning your own tracking if you orbit at that range. Edit: you need to know the 'sweet spot' of your guns against different target types, I'd suggest using your gun statistics (mounted on ship, with skills applied) together with the tracking guide to find out the best distance/speed for different target sizes/speeds.
Endless Subversion The Accursed	Posted - 2009.02.02 18:46:00 - [17] Originally by: Reaver Babe Edited by: Reaver Babe on 02/02/2009 14:15:35 I've heard a lot of people whining and complaining about the state of blasters post QR, but never had a chance myself to see if the complaints were justified because I mainly fly Amarr now, have been since they buffed the zealot with its fifth turret. Last night however I decided to take out my Deimos because I felt the need for something different. Rather than taking it into PVP I decided to test it on corpmates to see what changes needed to be made to the fitting to make it viable post QR. I tested it on a corpmate also in a cruiser hull ship. He sat there perfectly still, while I orbitted him with my MWD off at optimal. All gunnery support skills at 4. I tried with weapons grouped. Roughly every third or fourth volley from the entire GROUP missed completely. What the hell? I then switched to my zealot and orbitted him at ranges varying from 7500 all the way out to 45km, and didn't miss hardly at all. Not only that, but the hits themselves were for MUCH more despite him having EM as his highest resist, showing that in the blaster group, only some of the guns were hitting when a volley did land. This post reeks of trolling, but I'll respond like it's meant at face value. What a seriously dumb test. You're in a deimos and you orbit a stationary cruiser at somewhere between 2.3 and 3.5km and complain that you don't hit it well. Tracking wasn't changed. Webs were changed. A cruiser has a smallish sig. Don't orbit him. You're in a gank boat, you want to max your dps vs a crusier sized target. If he's stationary, laugh and kill your own speed. If he's moving, web him and PILOT your ship to min transversal. I notice you ignored your falloff and your drones. Yes, a zealot has a better optimal range. With the same number of dmg mods the zealot does 73% of the dmg the deimos does, before drones. So even at optimal + 1/2 falloff you're out dmging zealot before drones. That means at 7km orbit you out dmg the zealot and out track the zealot BEFORE drones. And then you have 50m3 of drones. You also ignore the utility high of the deimos (neut for tacklers, heat sink for extra overload?) Also, assuming same base speeds, if you use 2.3km (which I bet you did to skew everything) and 7.5km the transversal is approx 3 times as large for the deimos compared to the zealot. Yes, blasters don't track 3x as well as lasers. Very good. If you want a ranged dps ship use the zealot (zealot at 7.5km is epic fail btw) as scorch gives great range and tracking at large ranges isn't a big deal. If you want a small, quick gank ship that is effective INSIDE web range (small gang styles) and deals max dps at close ranges then you bring the deimos. Finally, learn to pilot your ship.
fuxinos Caldari Guys 0f Sarcasm	Posted - 2009.02.02 19:10:00 - [18] Originally by: Reaver Babe With the zealot, I had a range anywhere from 7500 to 40km+ with scorch and amarr navy MF where I was able to orbit the target and reliably hit with the MWD on OR off. Thats why you need to try to reduce transversal on turretships.... The closer you are, the higher your transversal, nothingelse but your own fault if you miss in optimal range. Solution, orbit slower.
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.02.02 20:27:00 - [19] Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 02/02/2009 20:28:21 Originally by: Endless Subversion Edited by: Endless Subversion on 02/02/2009 19:07:11 Originally by: Reaver Babe Edited by: Reaver Babe on 02/02/2009 14:15:35 I've heard a lot of people whining and complaining about the state of blasters post QR, but never had a chance myself to see if the complaints were justified because I mainly fly Amarr now, have been since they buffed the zealot with its fifth turret. Last night however I decided to take out my Deimos because I felt the need for something different. Rather than taking it into PVP I decided to test it on corpmates to see what changes needed to be made to the fitting to make it viable post QR. I tested it on a corpmate also in a cruiser hull ship. He sat there perfectly still, while I orbitted him with my MWD off at optimal. All gunnery support skills at 4. I tried with weapons grouped. Roughly every third or fourth volley from the entire GROUP missed completely. What the hell? I then switched to my zealot and orbitted him at ranges varying from 7500 all the way out to 45km, and didn't miss hardly at all. Not only that, but the hits themselves were for MUCH more despite him having EM as his highest resist, showing that in the blaster group, only some of the guns were hitting when a volley did land. This post reeks of trolling, but I'll respond like it's meant at face value. What a seriously dumb test. You're in a deimos and you orbit a stationary cruiser at somewhere between 2.3 and 3.5km and complain that you don't hit it well. Tracking wasn't changed. Webs were changed. A cruiser has a smallish sig. Don't orbit him. You're in a gank boat, you want to max your dps vs a crusier sized target. If he's stationary, laugh and kill your own speed. If he's moving, web him and PILOT your ship to min transversal. I notice you ignored your falloff and your drones. Yes, a zealot has a better optimal range. With the same number of dmg mods the zealot does 73% of the dmg the deimos does. So even at optimal + 1/2 falloff you're out dmging zealot. That means at 7km orbit you out dmg the zealot and out track the zealot. You also ignore the utility high of the deimos (neut for tacklers, heat sink for extra overload?) Also, assuming same base speeds, if you use 2.3km (which I bet you did to skew everything) and 7.5km the transversal is approx 3 times as large for the deimos compared to the zealot. Yes, blasters don't track 3x as well as lasers. Very good. If you want a ranged dps ship use the zealot (zealot at 7.5km is epic fail btw) as scorch gives great range and tracking at large ranges isn't a big deal. If you want a small, quick gank ship that is effective INSIDE web range (small gang styles) and deals max dps at close ranges then you bring the deimos. Finally, learn to pilot your ship. Awesome post, awesome. Nano*s are still in the mindset that you have to orbit at all times. There's NOTHING wrong with just sitting right next to something and frontloading damage. What do you use as a 'heatsink' up top? Never really bothered with overheating, whats the best heatsink? ----------------- Friends Forever**
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2009.02.02 20:46:00 - [20] Originally by: Endless Subversion Edited by: Endless Subversion on 02/02/2009 19:07:11 Originally by: Reaver Babe Edited by: Reaver Babe on 02/02/2009 14:15:35 I've heard a lot of people whining and complaining about the state of blasters post QR, but never had a chance myself to see if the complaints were justified because I mainly fly Amarr now, have been since they buffed the zealot with its fifth turret. Last night however I decided to take out my Deimos because I felt the need for something different. Rather than taking it into PVP I decided to test it on corpmates to see what changes needed to be made to the fitting to make it viable post QR. I tested it on a corpmate also in a cruiser hull ship. He sat there perfectly still, while I orbitted him with my MWD off at optimal. All gunnery support skills at 4. I tried with weapons grouped. Roughly every third or fourth volley from the entire GROUP missed completely. What the hell? I then switched to my zealot and orbitted him at ranges varying from 7500 all the way out to 45km, and didn't miss hardly at all. Not only that, but the hits themselves were for MUCH more despite him having EM as his highest resist, showing that in the blaster group, only some of the guns were hitting when a volley did land. This post reeks of trolling, but I'll respond like it's meant at face value. What a seriously dumb test. You're in a deimos and you orbit a stationary cruiser at somewhere between 2.3 and 3.5km and complain that you don't hit it well. Tracking wasn't changed. Webs were changed. A cruiser has a smallish sig. Don't orbit him. You're in a gank boat, you want to max your dps vs a crusier sized target. If he's stationary, laugh and kill your own speed. If he's moving, web him and PILOT your ship to min transversal. I notice you ignored your falloff and your drones. Yes, a zealot has a better optimal range. With the same number of dmg mods the zealot does 73% of the dmg the deimos does. So even at optimal + 1/2 falloff you're out dmging zealot. That means at 7km orbit you out dmg the zealot and out track the zealot. You also ignore the utility high of the deimos (neut for tacklers, heat sink for extra overload?) Also, assuming same base speeds, if you use 2.3km (which I bet you did to skew everything) and 7.5km the transversal is approx 3 times as large for the deimos compared to the zealot. Yes, blasters don't track 3x as well as lasers. Very good. If you want a ranged dps ship use the zealot (zealot at 7.5km is epic fail btw) as scorch gives great range and tracking at large ranges isn't a big deal. If you want a small, quick gank ship that is effective INSIDE web range (small gang styles) and deals max dps at close ranges then you bring the deimos. Finally, learn to pilot your ship. well since blasters I guess have the best tracking, this works actualy as a tank. you orbit close to your limit transversal while relying on better gun tracking than your enemy. however with blasters, you have to go to falloff to make better damage work while giving your enemy more range to work with transversal himself. sitting close and minimising transversal only works if you are sure that the DPS to EHP ratio is in your favor. once it is not, you are going to die no matter how your DPS advantage looks on paper. so "tracking tanking" is the solution (which does not work :-) so you going to die anyway ...
Endless Subversion The Accursed	Posted - 2009.02.02 20:51:00 - [21] Another quick thought: The way tracking works, if the sig of the target is 3x bigger, your tracking is 3x better. So by the time you're shooting a BS (as opposed to a cruiser)orbitting at your optimal in a deimos you're probably hitting nearly everytime. Doesn't matter what module you use as a heatsink.
Karrade Krise Galatic P0RN Starz	Posted - 2009.02.02 20:58:00 - [22] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Nano*s are still in the mindset that you have to orbit at all times. There's NOTHING wrong with just sitting right next to something and frontloading damage. I was never a nano* or anything...but I've been stuck on this mindset for the longest time and I'm only just now realizing the significance of tracking and orbiting with gank webrange boats...
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.02.02 21:01:00 - [23] wait, I don't orbit stuff at 1km in a blastership
AnKahn Caldari The Giant Squid Corp.	Posted - 2009.02.02 21:07:00 - [24] Blaster ships seem to consistantly top the killmails. That's the real EvE world right there.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2009.02.02 22:17:00 - [25] Originally by: Myra2007 Why would you orbit a ship of the same size? You want to orbit bigger ships so they miss you. OP - your experiment was flawed. You only orbit larger ships. Equal and smaller you dive at them or lurch away in as straight a line as possible. You want to have superior to equal tracking to your opponent.
Ravenal The Fated E.Y	Posted - 2009.02.02 22:25:00 - [26] Originally by: Reaver Babe I've heard a lot of people whining and complaining about the state of blasters post QR, but never had a chance myself to see if the complaints were justified because I mainly fly Amarr now, have been since they buffed the zealot with its fifth turret. Last night however I decided to take out my Deimos because I felt the need for something different. Rather than taking it into PVP I decided to test it on corpmates to see what changes needed to be made to the fitting to make it viable post QR. I tested it on a corpmate also in a cruiser hull ship. He sat there perfectly still, while I orbitted him with my MWD off at optimal. All gunnery support skills at 4. I tried with weapons grouped. Roughly every third or fourth volley from the entire GROUP missed completely. What the hell? I then switched to my zealot and orbitted him at ranges varying from 7500 all the way out to 45km, and didn't miss hardly at all. Not only that, but the hits themselves were for MUCH more despite him having EM as his highest resist, showing that in the blaster group, only some of the guns were hitting when a volley did land. My qestion is... CCP what are you thinking? Are all blaster ships not named taranis supposed to just retire now? "I orbitted him with my MWD off at optimal" Here is your problem!
Psiri	Posted - 2009.02.03 06:05:00 - [27] Originally by: Omarvelous You only orbit larger ships. Equal and smaller you dive at them or lurch away in as straight a line as possible. You want to have superior to equal tracking to your opponent. Well, or if you can orbit fast enough to avoid all or enough incoming damage to tank it through shield recharge or armor repair. Ie. for blaster frigates orbiting is a perfectly valid tactic, or cruisers with light blasters (which have high enough tracking to cope with it).
Diefer Minmatar	Posted - 2009.02.03 10:34:00 - [28] Originally by: Dr Fighter everyone knows in eve closest means highest dps. While in RL knife < gun < machine gun < artillery < ICBM Sometimes it seems, that when laying initial design for eve, CCP intentionally removed every connection to reality.
hellsknights SniggWaffe	Posted - 2009.02.03 10:56:00 - [29] Originally by: Psiri Edited by: Psiri on 02/02/2009 16:39:19 Light blasters are excellent, mediums are decent and can be used effectively on ships lke the Brutix. As for large blasters they're fine aswell, the problem isn't the blasters but rather battleships' speed in conjunction with the mwd/scrambler changes. Tbh, it's not a very big issue either, the gankathron was king of the hill for far too long. EDIT: Oh and remember kids, electrons are the new neutrons! Why are electrons the new neutrons, fill me in on this theory pls.
uzumoreru	Posted - 2009.02.03 11:11:00 - [30] If you orbit a zealot (for example) in your deimos at blaster optimal, how many hits does he score? If you are orbitting against a similarly sized target in a blasterboat, you aim to increase the ratio of your dps to your targets. A numerical example (numbers made up): In a 1km orbit at 200m/s a deimos hits 3/4 of the time, so doing 75% of rated dps (slightly more factoring in drones but no matter). The zealot being orbitted at 200m/s by the deimos is hiting 1/8 of the time, doing 12.5% of its rated dps. In this instance you can see that the deimos is sacrificing kill speed to maintain its buffer, or to bring damage down so it can tank it on a single rep. The damage discrepancy clearly favours the deimos, much like if the fight were beyond 10km or so, the damage would favour the zealot as it is fighting in optimal, where the deimos is in falloff.
BiggestT Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.02.03 11:13:00 - [31] Edited by: BiggestT on 03/02/2009 11:17:22 Originally by: Reaver Babe Originally by: Furb Killer So you did hit him with pulse lasers when orbitting at blaster optimal, but not when doing the same with blasters? Was your zealot going much slower or do you have special pulse lasers with higher tracking than blasters? Also the deimos is arguably the worst of all blaster ships isk/performance wise. No, at blaster optimal I hit with blasters 2 out of every 3 times. This was orbitting a stationary object with cruiser sig radius MWD turned off, AT OPTIMAL with faction antimatter loaded. With the zealot, I had a range anywhere from 7500 to 40km+ with scorch and amarr navy MF where I was able to orbit the target and reliably hit with the MWD on OR off. The individual volleys hit the target for more on the zealot as well despite the fact that the target had higher em resist than anything else, which could ONLY mean that with the group volleys the deimos was only hitting with some of its guns while the zealot hit with all. and bear in mind this was with ion blasters, not neutrons, so tracking shouldn't have been THAT much of an issue on the deimos. W H A T T H E F * C K ! ! ? edit: Damn I knew that pulse were kinda superior due to range atm, and when I use blasters I just accept that im the short range guy and that geddon is the mid range guy. However when the blaster boat is missing 2/3 at OPTIMAL with the MWD turned OFF, that is just a joke.. EVE history t2 precisions
BiggestT Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.02.03 11:17:00 - [32] Edited by: BiggestT on 03/02/2009 11:17:45 Originally by: AnKahn Blaster ships seem to consistantly top the killmails. That's the real EvE world right there. It's called drones, that doesnt justify anything as plenty of blaster boats have lousy drone bays EVE history t2 precisions
Psiri	Posted - 2009.02.03 11:34:00 - [33] Quote: Why are electrons the new neutrons, fill me in on this theory pls. With PvP revolving more and more around frigate hulls the higher tracking from the electrons will more often than not translate into a direct damage boost, with considerably lower fitting requirements they also enables mods like neutralizers which have become increasingly more useful. EFT numbers are not an actual representaton of real DPS. It can even be hard to hit a cruiser with medium neutrons in some circumstances.
Grarr Dexx Amarr Divinity's Edge	Posted - 2009.02.03 11:40:00 - [34] Originally by: BiggestT Edited by: BiggestT on 03/02/2009 11:17:45 Originally by: AnKahn Blaster ships seem to consistantly top the killmails. That's the real EvE world right there. It's called drones, that doesnt justify anything as plenty of blaster boats have lousy drone bays I wish my zealot had a drone bay
BiggestT Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.02.03 12:37:00 - [35] Originally by: Grarr Dexx Originally by: BiggestT Edited by: BiggestT on 03/02/2009 11:17:45 Originally by: AnKahn Blaster ships seem to consistantly top the killmails. That's the real EvE world right there. It's called drones, that doesnt justify anything as plenty of blaster boats have lousy drone bays I wish my zealot had a drone bay /me points at his cerb and eagle.. Hmm no drone bay either, but they dont get near blaster dps EVE history t2 precisions
Dasalt Istgut	Posted - 2009.02.03 12:46:00 - [36] Edited by: Dasalt Istgut on 03/02/2009 12:46:42 Originally by: Reaver Babe Originally by: Furb Killer So you did hit him with pulse lasers when orbitting at blaster optimal, but not when doing the same with blasters? Was your zealot going much slower or do you have special pulse lasers with higher tracking than blasters? Also the deimos is arguably the worst of all blaster ships isk/performance wise. No, at blaster optimal I hit with blasters 2 out of every 3 times. This was orbitting a stationary object with cruiser sig radius MWD turned off, AT OPTIMAL with faction antimatter loaded. With the zealot, I had a range anywhere from 7500 to 40km+ with scorch and amarr navy MF where I was able to orbit the target and reliably hit with the MWD on OR off. The individual volleys hit the target for more on the zealot as well despite the fact that the target had higher em resist than anything else, which could ONLY mean that with the group volleys the deimos was only hitting with some of its guns while the zealot hit with all. and bear in mind this was with ion blasters, not neutrons, so tracking shouldn't have been THAT much of an issue on the deimos. target was a plated maller with a logistics ship repping it. so, the blaster ship even at optimal range, orbitting the stationary target with its mwd turned off and faction ammo loaded, missed roughly 1/3 of the time. when shooting at something bigger i can imagine this is probably not an issue, but when firing on other cruiser sized target i can see this being crippling and losing you a lot of fights. My last 50 or so post QR thorax kills disagree with you. Are you sure he didn't have a tracking disruptor on you or something? At optimal against same sized ships I've never had an issue tracking.
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2009.02.03 12:49:00 - [37] Originally by: BiggestT Originally by: Grarr Dexx Originally by: BiggestT Edited by: BiggestT on 03/02/2009 11:17:45 Originally by: AnKahn Blaster ships seem to consistantly top the killmails. That's the real EvE world right there. It's called drones, that doesnt justify anything as plenty of blaster boats have lousy drone bays I wish my zealot had a drone bay /me points at his cerb and eagle.. Hmm no drone bay either, but they dont get near blaster dps They don¦t have to operate at a Range where HACs usely die quite fast aswell(ofc excluding the Rail Deimost and Beagle). It is called Diemost for a reason. Also I think the OP dooing it wrong, I mean orbitting another Cruiser sized Target in a Deimos? Seriously? ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Kanya Nague SniggWaffe	Posted - 2009.02.03 13:09:00 - [38] Dont orbit with mwd. MWd makes your sig 5 times bigger while your speed will maybe increase by 3x due to agility problems. Which makes it easier to hit you, while you have it 3x more difficult to hit. Only interceptors can use the mwd for speedtanking.
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2009.02.03 13:14:00 - [39] Quote: while I orbitted him with my MWD off at optimal Originally by: Kanya Nague Dont orbit with mwd. MWd makes your sig 5 times bigger while your speed will maybe increase by 3x due to agility problems. Which makes it easier to hit you, while you have it 3x more difficult to hit. Only interceptors can use the mwd for speedtanking. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
Morel Nova z3r0 Gravity Fluidic Anti-Gravity	Posted - 2009.02.03 14:19:00 - [40] Originally by: Grarr Dexx I wish my zealot had a drone bay Navy omen. they are sweet. You do more damage, have a dronebay and range isnt too bad with 3x locus rigs. Put in space whales!
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order	Posted - 2009.02.03 14:59:00 - [41] Originally by: Dr Fighter blasters are fine all in all, only thing id say is they could do with a bit more damage to seperate from autos and pulses a bit more - they are closest ranged. everyone knows in eve closest means highest dps. You must be doing somthing wrong. If your moaning about not lasting long enough to kill anyone, you hit the nail on the head - its the ships that use blasters rather than the actual modules that need love. What???? You all ready have substantially more dps then autos or lasers. QFT. Stop, hammer time.
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order	Posted - 2009.02.03 15:01:00 - [42] Edited by: Megan Maynard on 03/02/2009 15:02:14 Also, what kind of guns were you using? If it was the biggest baddest blasters then yeah you will miss if you are orbiting. I have the same damn problem with 425's. Pulse lasers, zealot usually doesn't fit the biggest baddest ones, you fit the next ones down for tracking reasons...... Hitting "orbit" and expecting hits is the most noobish thing I've heard come out of the mouth of someone who is an "experienced" pvp'er. Stop, hammer time.
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2009.02.03 15:08:00 - [43] Originally by: Psiri Originally by: Omarvelous You only orbit larger ships. Equal and smaller you dive at them or lurch away in as straight a line as possible. You want to have superior to equal tracking to your opponent. Well, or if you can orbit fast enough to avoid all or enough incoming damage to tank it through shield recharge or armor repair. Ie. for blaster frigates orbiting is a perfectly valid tactic, or cruisers with light blasters (which have high enough tracking to cope with it). Hence why I said you want to track better than your target can track you. Straight lining was for equal to smaller targets. Orbiting and firing blaster is for firing on atrgets larger than yourself. Hence the failed experiment. He's orbiting a ship that he shouldn't be orbiting in the first place. Blaster boats should not be flown like pulse boats.
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order	Posted - 2009.02.03 15:11:00 - [44] And ANOTHER thing, jeez you guys **** me off. Orbiting at 1500-1600 meters is the dumbest thing I've ever heard of. Unless you are fighting a ship that has a massive radius you will never hit with medium guns of any type. You guns have fall off, USE IT. Hell my rupture hits best at around 5 km against targets of the same type. But that's only if I choose to orbit. Most of the time I'm going straight at the bastard and blasting them to hell, in which case around 1000 m will do. I even went on EFT to confirm this notion and low and behold the mighty deimos that couldn't hit anything actually hits better at around 5 km NOT 1600 m like you want it too. To be redundant I tried the same with the thorax and rupture, gasp, 5000 m was the money zone. The point is this, big mean guns are not meant to track well against similar sized targets. You have to line the shot up or know where you need to be range wise to hit well. If you are fighting a raven go crazy and orbit at 500 m, you'll hit because sig radius is a huge factor. But in a duel against a similar sized ship you damn well better have some range so your guns can track. I can't believe I'm helping you noobs when it'd be easier to just keep killing you.... Stop, hammer time.
Reaver Babe	Posted - 2009.02.03 15:14:00 - [45] Originally by: Megan Maynard Edited by: Megan Maynard on 03/02/2009 15:02:14 Also, what kind of guns were you using? If it was the biggest baddest blasters then yeah you will miss if you are orbiting. I have the same damn problem with 425's. Pulse lasers, zealot usually doesn't fit the biggest baddest ones, you fit the next ones down for tracking reasons...... Hitting "orbit" and expecting hits is the most noobish thing I've heard come out of the mouth of someone who is an "experienced" pvp'er. the deimos used in the test was using ions, which are "middle of the range" for blasters, equivalent to 220's. and actually zealots usually DO fit the biggest baddest guns they can because tracking is not generally an issue for lasers regardless, and lasers, unlike projectiles and hybrids, don't have a "middle size" gun, except in frigate sized ones. what i mean is: cruiser sized autocannons: dual 180 220 425 cruiser sized blaster: heavy electron heavy ion heavy neutron cruiser sized pulse lasers: focused medium pulse heavy pulse thats it. and very few people fit focused medium pulse as the only reason you would is for a better tank and most zealot pilots accept that their ship is a glass cannon. and i do now see what the others meant about falloff, and how you shouldn't orbit in a blaster boat when shooting at something same size or smaller. i'll try the experiment again this time, with the blaster boat sitting still but the target (which is webbed and 9km scrammed) moving as would happen in a real situation.
Endless Subversion The Accursed	Posted - 2009.02.03 15:48:00 - [46] Edited by: Endless Subversion on 03/02/2009 15:51:14 I have never read a BiggestT post worth anything, ever. As to your new test, don't just have the deimos sitting still, that's only 'best' when the target is totally still too. If the target is trying to max transversal, you need to be trying to minimize it. Also, what the hell is he flying? It had better be a missile/ac boat/active tanked cruiser (lol), otherwise he doesn't want to increase transversal when he is fighting you either. So if he is trying to get closer and orbit you, you want to be trying to move away and negate his orbit. When you run your zealot test, same deal, if you're going to use MF, with a 7.5km opt,then your target should be webbing you and trying to decrease transversal. And without a web your zealot is going to have a MUCH harder time controlling transversal. Also, while it makes sense to be using a scram/web/mwd on a deimos, it's rare to see scram/web on a zealot. A scram and web allow for much better control of range and transversal.
Alpha Prime Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2009.02.03 15:51:00 - [47] Originally by: Endless Subversion Edited by: Endless Subversion on 02/02/2009 19:07:11 What a seriously dumb test. You're in a deimos and you orbit a stationary cruiser at somewhere between 2.3 and 3.5km and complain that you don't hit it well. Tracking wasn't changed. Webs were changed. A cruiser has a smallish sig. Don't orbit him. You're in a gank boat, you want to max your dps vs a crusier sized target. If he's stationary, laugh and kill your own speed. If he's moving, web him and PILOT your ship to min transversal. I notice you ignored your falloff and your drones. Wrong. This is where EvE Fails. You see, orbeting a stationary target put it into center, which also "should" make your guns aimed towards center and thus, removing all needs for any aiming. But this is not the case, and why CCP have failed to fix this, i do not know. Orbiting a non-moving target should require ZERO tracking as long as your guns are shooting that which you orbit. But there's a lot of things CCP fails at. Like gamebreaking by making 2 races non-cap offense and 2 races highly cap-using offense. Oveur 2006: We're going to make blobwarfare less effective. Oveur 2008: We're installing better code so players can bring bigger blobs.
Endless Subversion The Accursed	Posted - 2009.02.03 16:06:00 - [48] Originally by: Alpha Prime Wrong. This is where EvE Fails. You see, orbeting a stationary target put it into center, which also "should" make your guns aimed towards center and thus, removing all needs for any aiming. But this is not the case, and why CCP have failed to fix this, i do not know. Orbiting a non-moving target should require ZERO tracking as long as your guns are shooting that which you orbit. But there's a lot of things CCP fails at. Like gamebreaking by making 2 races non-cap offense and 2 races highly cap-using offense. Your post makes no sense at all, but it's clear you either don't know what you're talking about OR you can't clearly express what you mean. I'll recap some EVE tracking information for you. If the target and the attacker are both stationary, guns that are in range effectively ignore tracking. So Dread guns from a stationary dread shooting a stationary interceptor hit him for full dmg. Thus, if your target is stationary and you want to maximize dmg done to it (like in the OP) you stop your ship completely. Now If I understand you, you're saying in real life things work differently and that the eve tracking formula doesn't mirror real life. That's true, but doesn't make me wrong. In eve things behave differently, in eve the best way to maximize dps vs an unmoving target is to stop, not orbit him.
Psiri	Posted - 2009.02.03 16:13:00 - [49] Originally by: Endless Subversion Your post makes no sense at all, but it's clear you either don't know what you're talking about OR you can't clearly express what you mean. I think he makes perfect sense, except maybe the last part about cap offense which I don't get. What he's saying is, if you're in a real world setting perfectly orbiting a stationary object your guns would be facing the same 90 degree angle constantly (towards the center) and hence no need for turret tracking. Then again the real world and internet space ships don't mix very well.
Endless Subversion The Accursed	Posted - 2009.02.03 16:31:00 - [50] Originally by: Psiri I think he makes perfect sense, except maybe the last part about cap offense which I don't get.. His post makes no sense because he starts off by saying Wrong ! When, despite RL mechanics, in Eve it DOES work as I've described. I think it must be a language barrier?
Psiri	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:13:00 - [51] Originally by: Endless Subversion His post makes no sense because he starts off by saying Wrong ! When, despite RL mechanics, in Eve it DOES work as I've described. I think it must be a language barrier? Well true, it has no relevance to your post. Pherhaps it was a misquote?
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:29:00 - [52] If you are talking about RL mechanics..... Sigh. Orbiting or circling around something requires you to LEAD the target as if it was moving. HENCE, "tracking". As for using the middle of the road guns, good for you. Now put the rest of the puzzle into place. Your zealot is operating from 7500 to 40 km out and still hitting. For two damage types. And at a farther range where tracking is further negated. tracking*distance will give you a rough estimate of how fast you can be going without taking into consideration sig radius. Now you said you were shooting at a range of 1600 m....... The tracking required for a ship going 300 m/s at 1600 m is.1875 rad/sec. That is pretty damn high for medium guns. ANY MEDIUM GUNS. That includes projectiles, lasers, and hybrids. So, if you want to hit at 1600 m orbiting at 300 m/s against a similar sized medium target you need to fit a tracking mod OR faster tracking guns like the rest of us. Or do what I do and orbit slightly into fall off, don't lose any damage, and beat the hell out of whatever I am shooting. (Seeing as you have the highest dps guns in the game...) Or quit orbiting. Nice try though.
Psiri	Posted - 2009.02.03 17:56:00 - [53] Lead the target? I'm not sure what you mean by that. But try this, 1) Glue a pin to the door of a toy car, having it face outwards in a 90 degree angle. 2) place a bottle cap in the middle of a plate and put the car on the edge of that same plate. 3) have the toy car travel around the rim of the plate, notice how the pin will always be facing dead center. So no, in a real world setting you wouldn't need fast turret tracking if you're perfectly orbiting a stationary target (if that's what you were implying). Not that it matters because EVE isn't and has never been realistic.

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