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Dr Fighter
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Posted - 2009.02.03 17:00:00 -
[31]
an alt askign aother alt to show his main is the dumbest thing ive ever heard.
eccm makes less difference the smaller the sensor strength - fact.
BS with eccm will still get jammed, yes half as much, but still jammed.
If the bar is set at 25 strength, and you get jammed 5/10 times, if you had 50 strength you would expect 2-3/10 jamms. This works - fact.
The issue is that the applied ecm is always 8 or more strength, from my own personnel expirence, unless you can hit 40 or more sensor strength you will notice very little differnce.
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sgt spike
Sicarri Covenant
Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.03 17:06:00 -
[32]
i think that fitting eccm should make any falcon trying to jam you INSTANTLY explode with no warning or message at all.
that would not only be really funny but would make the eccm module as powerful as ecm
in fact i think im going to petition for this to happen
i know where the devs live ..... im gonna stand outside their stations and chant slogans dammit :)
WHO'S WITH ME
can you put a price on peace? |
Murina
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.02.03 17:12:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Murina on 03/02/2009 17:13:49
 Originally by: Dr Fighter
an alt askign aother alt to show his main is the dumbest thing ive ever heard.
You made claims about your main, back em up or stfu.
Originally by: Dr Fighter
eccm makes less difference the smaller the sensor strength - fact.
FALSE.
A ships with 13 str can be 100% perma jammed by a maxed out 14 str falcon for infinity. 1 eccm gives that ship 26 str giving it a almost 50% chance to resist the jam.
That is huge as it is from a 0 chance ever to almost 50%.
Originally by: Dr Fighter
If the bar is set at 25 strength, and you get jammed 5/10 times, if you had 50 strength you would expect 2-3/10 jamms. This works - fact.
False.
I suggest you read the jamming chance thread and learn a little more about probability.
Originally by: Dr Fighter
The issue is that the applied ecm is always 8 or more strength, from my own personnel expirence, unless you can hit 40 or more sensor strength you will notice very little differnce.
Your experience is non existent and your posts show it, the normal str of a ecm is between 10-14 for starters not 8 and you do not need 40 str or even close to it.
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Solo is all about skill not ship fits.....
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
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Major Celine
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Posted - 2009.02.03 17:17:00 -
[34]
Ok ok, I take a hardener that makes me immune to all damage types for the first - let's see how it works.
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Drunk Driver
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.03 17:27:00 -
[35]
Here's the easy button for countering Falcons:
BRING YOUR OWN FALCONS TO JAM THEIR FALCONS!
OK, Falcon problem is now solved.
Glad I could help!
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Murina
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.02.03 17:30:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Drunk Driver
Here's the easy button for countering Falcons:
BRING YOUR OWN FALCONS TO JAM THEIR FALCONS!
OK, Falcon problem is now solved.
Glad I could help!
Facons suck at jamming other falcons, base 28 sig str rarely needs even 1 eccm but even if it does theirs plenty of mids..... |
chrisss0r
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Posted - 2009.02.03 17:44:00 -
[37]
Edited by: chrisss0r on 03/02/2009 17:51:38
Edited by: chrisss0r on 03/02/2009 17:46:11
Originally by: Dr Fighter
an alt askign aother alt to show his main is the dumbest thing ive ever heard.
eccm makes less difference the smaller the sensor strength - fact.
BS with eccm will still get jammed, yes half as much, but still jammed.
If the bar is set at 25 strength, and you get jammed 5/10 times, if you had 50 strength you would expect 2-3/10 jamms. This works - fact.
This is only true if you are alone. In a gang situation the eccms fitted on multiple ships will drive the chances you all get permajammed over a few cycles goes down alot.
I suggest you read my thread, but since i think you won't here the numbers for 2 ships to be permajammed over 3 cycles by a falcon with 6 jammers with and without eccm.
68,15% without eccm
9.734% with eccm
and here for 6 cycles:
46.44% without eccm
0.09% with ecm
Already calculated for staggered jammers. While it is true that a eccm will only half your chance of getting jammed every for every single cycle the net outcome for a gang is way higher since the falcon will have way less free jammers to move around for jam attempts failed on a specific ship. Also interesting to add that having 1 eccm on BOTH ships is way more effective than having 2 eccm on 1 ship and none on the other. So you don't have to give up a crazy amount of mids. In fact it's 1 per gang member
Funny enouth tomention is that i brought up the thread to proof that a falcon in small gang situation jams way more effectively that common believe due to staged jamming aproaches. While my point proved to be correct it also showed that the difference between havin eccm on and not is way higher than commom believe aswell.
So i somewhat created an argument FOR and AGAINST my oppinion that the falcon is overpowered. I'm the real victim imo
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Agor Dirdonen
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Posted - 2009.02.03 22:55:00 -
[38]
What I rather like to see is more usage for the Passive Targeter module.
In my opinion, as it uses advanced acoustical and visual targeting to identify threats, it should not be jammable. When you are jammed, fitting a passive targeter should allow you still to target 1 target (and only 1 target, no matter how many passive targeters you fit). It should be used the same way as it is used right now: activate module, select target.
It might need maybe some chance base or another type of counter but it would be a nice counter against too much jamming power. |
FreddyCheeseman
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Posted - 2009.02.03 23:30:00 -
[39]
There was a thread somewhere suggesting that the falcons straight range bonus be swapped out for an equivalent fall-off bonus. To me, this has been the only sensible suggestion I have seen from the anti-falcon campaign that doesn't just want a ship they can't handle rendered useless. The change would mean to jam with full strength requires the falcon to be within dangerous territory (100k or so dependant on skills) and can push range further out, but to the detriment of jam success due to fall off mechanics.
It wasn't all that long ago every man and his dog were trying to tell me that ECM was a dead module, nerfed into oblivion by CCP, and that I was an idiot for not training gallente recons. Well, the falcon got a little strength increase, but only to match the rook, and just watch these whines flow!
The falcons a one trick pony, and it's not hard to apply just a touch of thought to the problem and come up with a solution. Be it a dead falcon, or one who just doesn't dare uncloak, he is equally useless. Yea if your coming into an organised camp with falcons sat at 200k safespots its not going to end well! Shock horror the organised unit has the upper hand! It has to be rule number one of warfare, you choose the battleground! Falcons can't warp in at 200k now can they?
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Deschenus Maximus
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2009.02.03 23:45:00 -
[40]
Two problems with ECCM:
1-Does **** all on ships smaller than BS.
2-Only thing it's good for is lessening the RAAAAAAAAAAGE when you encounter ***cons.
Solutions:
1-ECCM gives a flat bonus to sensor strength instead of %.
2-ECCM also lowers your sig radius by a few percentage (RP reason: Sig radius considered an amalgam of the ship's size AND how much comm chatter goes on on the ship. By shielding the sensors, you also lower the amount of chatter that can be picked up by opposing ships).
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Misaniovent
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.02.04 00:02:00 -
[41]
how about ECMSCM
Electronic counter measures ship counter measures. It's very simple, and you carry it in your drown bay. It doesn't even take up a slot! You engage this system, and immediately are teleported simultaneously to every ship equipping ECM in your region. When you arrive at your multiple destinations, the system engages a smartbomb that Concord totally doesn't mind at all.
Combined with my proposed Falcon nerf (all ECM ships have 0 shields, 0 armor, 1 structure, and 0 resists), you should never have to worry about this problem again.
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Cohkka
Celestial Apocalypse
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Posted - 2009.02.04 00:48:00 -
[42]
Originally by: chrisss0r
Funny enouth tomention is that i brought up the thread to proof that a falcon in small gang situation jams way more effectively that common believe due to staged jamming aproaches. While my point proved to be correct it also showed that the difference between havin eccm on and not is way higher than commom believe aswell.
So i somewhat created an argument FOR and AGAINST my oppinion that the falcon is overpowered. I'm the real victim imo
Everyone has their own reason to dislike the Falcon. My reason is that in a staged small PvP fight the Falcon gains so much of a weight that a flip of a coin can mean the win for one of the sides. Of course it can happen that the Falcon misses almost all of its jamms, even on non ECCMed targets but it can also mean the opposite throwing of the whole ballance of the engagement (imo that's less fun).
The other part is that an engaging team (e.g. jumping on another small fleet, warping and getting dragged into a bubble) already has huge disadvantages. They can't choose the fight distance, they can be bubbled (and they will) and they are at a high risk of loosing their own EW support in the first seconds. While the Falcon gives the defender another strong position: they can set up at a very long range... there is no way a small Fleet BS will hit that far. Giving them practical immunity. Then taking care of them removes a great portion of your own DPS. In these fights every bit of DPS counts.
So in such a common situation you are left with one singe countermeasure: ECCM and that can go either way. You can get lucky or not. If I want to play a game based around luck I'd go to the casino.
There are other points, but they have been discussed a million times already. All I want CCP to do it ballancing ECM around a module that ALWAYS works within its optimal. No, coin flipping.
Don't speak english, just F5, F5, F5... |
bff Jill
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Posted - 2009.02.04 03:23:00 -
[43]
Edited by: bff Jill on 04/02/2009 03:26:24
This is actually a good idea, but nobody wants to admit it.
If ECCM was this effective everyone would fit one.
This would remove everyone's 'utility' mid, and make amarr (who are currently ove.. er... 'very well balanced') have to lose one of their REQUIRED mids.
The very existence of the POSSIBILITY of a falcon would REMOVE ONE MID SLOT FROM EVERY SHIP IN THE GAME!.
That is very powerful and hardly a nerf. It would just make ECCM useful. Currently you can put ECCM in 'everymidslot' and still not be immune from jamming, though you will be totally useless in pvp with no mids at all so you are still kind of 'semi-jammed' into useless even if you can target.
It will work because 99% of falcons are being piloted by alts, so you wont even be hurting many 'real' players. The few people who fly falcons 'for real' should get some sort of boost, perhaps a falcon only hi slot module that makes the ship totally immune from everything but unable to act in any way. This would bring the needed nerf to 0.0 as a side effect as well.
Its really win all around for everybody. |
Grahv Exitus
Minmatar
Noob Mercs
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Posted - 2009.02.04 04:09:00 -
[44]
Originally by: FreddyCheeseman
There was a thread somewhere suggesting that the falcons straight range bonus be swapped out for an equivalent fall-off bonus. To me, this has been the only sensible suggestion I have seen from the anti-falcon campaign that doesn't just want a ship they can't handle rendered useless. The change would mean to jam with full strength requires the falcon to be within dangerous territory (100k or so dependant on skills) and can push range further out, but to the detriment of jam success due to fall off mechanics.
The falcons a one trick pony, and it's not hard to apply just a touch of thought to the problem and come up with a solution. Be it a dead falcon, or one who just doesn't dare uncloak, he is equally useless. Yea if your coming into an organised camp with falcons sat at 200k safespots its not going to end well! Shock horror the organised unit has the upper hand! It has to be rule number one of warfare, you choose the battleground! Falcons can't warp in at 200k now can they?
This is the only sensible fix to the Falcon, that doesn't involve just deleting it from the database. However, the problem of the falcon's range is part of a much larger problem that is affecting eve. Longer range guns and longer range ammo do exactly jack to anyone who has anything resembling a tank. (besides scorch.) Range is such a strong tank in this game whose counter, Speed (nerfed), Long range turret ammo (laughable dps, except scorch) and missiles (nerfed) is just not balanced with respect to the amount of HP that each ship has...
The Falloff Bonus idea might help it masking that issue for a while longer though. 
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Soporo
Caldari
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.02.04 04:14:00 -
[45]
Originally by: bff Jill
Edited by: bff Jill on 04/02/2009 03:26:24
This is actually a good idea, but nobody wants to admit it.
If ECCM was this effective everyone would fit one.
This would remove everyone's 'utility' mid, and make amarr (who are currently ove.. er... 'very well balanced') have to lose one of their REQUIRED mids.
The very existence of the POSSIBILITY of a falcon would REMOVE ONE MID SLOT FROM EVERY SHIP IN THE GAME!.
That is very powerful and hardly a nerf. It would just make ECCM useful. Currently you can put ECCM in 'everymidslot' and still not be immune from jamming, though you will be totally useless in pvp with no mids at all so you are still kind of 'semi-jammed' into useless even if you can target.
It will work because 99% of falcons are being piloted by alts, so you wont even be hurting many 'real' players. The few people who fly falcons 'for real' should get some sort of boost, perhaps a falcon only hi slot module that makes the ship totally immune from everything but unable to act in any way. This would bring the needed nerf to 0.0 as a side effect as well.
Its really win all around for everybody.
For everyone except shield tankers and shield tanking missile users especially. Cool! We'd go from a 3 slot tank to a 2 slot one! Wonderfull idea. Not. |
bff Jill
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Posted - 2009.02.04 04:33:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Soporo
Originally by: bff Jill
Edited by: bff Jill on 04/02/2009 03:26:24
This is actually a good idea, but nobody wants to admit it.
If ECCM was this effective everyone would fit one.
This would remove everyone's 'utility' mid, and make amarr (who are currently ove.. er... 'very well balanced') have to lose one of their REQUIRED mids.
The very existence of the POSSIBILITY of a falcon would REMOVE ONE MID SLOT FROM EVERY SHIP IN THE GAME!.
That is very powerful and hardly a nerf. It would just make ECCM useful. Currently you can put ECCM in 'everymidslot' and still not be immune from jamming, though you will be totally useless in pvp with no mids at all so you are still kind of 'semi-jammed' into useless even if you can target.
It will work because 99% of falcons are being piloted by alts, so you wont even be hurting many 'real' players. The few people who fly falcons 'for real' should get some sort of boost, perhaps a falcon only hi slot module that makes the ship totally immune from everything but unable to act in any way. This would bring the needed nerf to 0.0 as a side effect as well.
Its really win all around for everybody.
For everyone except shield tankers and shield tanking missile users especially. Cool! We'd go from a 3 slot tank to a 2 slot one! Wonderfull idea. Not.
You don't need to use ECCM for pve. |
Leyvan
Stand Vyritza
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Posted - 2009.02.04 08:36:00 -
[47]
Right now, it's like rolling a 10-sided dice. If you dont get 10, then you fail.
Replace usefull modules with ECCM, then it's like rolling an 2 sided dice, if you dont hit 1 you fail.
Not too bad, altough we ARE ditching a bunch of slots for nothing other than *some* protection for ECM.
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chrisss0r
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Posted - 2009.02.04 09:06:00 -
[48]
Just amazing how people keep insisting that eccm is next to useless and only helps slightly. 
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H Lecter
Gallente
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2009.02.04 09:41:00 -
[49]
I'm quite happy that so many people do not believe in ECCM. It gives an advantage to those who know about its usefulness.
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HankMurphy
Minmatar
Pelennor Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.02.04 09:48:00 -
[50]
ah, falcon threads
the dysenteric diarrhea of forum threads
that said, they are next on the chopping block. |
lecrotta
Minmatar
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2009.02.04 09:57:00 -
[51]
Originally by: HankMurphy
that said, they are next on the chopping block.
Gank/tank is by far the most popular form of fit in the game so nerfing a aspect that adds spice and variety into otherwise f1-f8 pvp style is a very bad idea. |
Lex Tael
Caldari
Advanced Defences Research
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Posted - 2009.02.04 10:11:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Torco
When I saw a gang of 16 pilots with 9(!) Falcons lately and i was expiriencing that every fight we had in the last months including Falcons, I was thinking about this overpowered ship and what kind of changes CCP could do to make PvP more fun.
I was thinking about making the ECCM module much more effektive but high cap consuming.
I mean you sacrificing one med slot for this, combined with really high cap costs should make ECM and ECCM a nice mini-tactical game in combat.
What do you think about this idea?
discuss :-)
The idea itself is actually pretty good. It might save falcons from being beaten into complete uselessness by The Nerf Bat.
Too bad it got trolled so hard by the "cry more" people.
Most of them seem to have missed the high cap consumption part.
Say, if a jammed ship could pay ~1/3 of it's cap to be immune to ECM for ~30 seconds. Wouldn't that allow for some interesting tactical decisions?
This addresses the infamous "frustration of being permajammed". Don't like being unable to do anything? Well, you can pay 1/3 cap for the get-out-of-jail card. Gives the ECM target more control over the situation (for the price of cap and a mid-slot) while still keeping the falcons very useful and dangerous. Win-win?
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Burn Mac
Minmatar
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2009.02.04 10:13:00 -
[53]
Falcon is overpowered since it has alot of bonuses for ECM no ship has bonuses to ECCM.
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Murina
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2009.02.04 10:15:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Lex Tael
Originally by: Torco
When I saw a gang of 16 pilots with 9(!) Falcons lately and i was expiriencing that every fight we had in the last months including Falcons, I was thinking about this overpowered ship and what kind of changes CCP could do to make PvP more fun.
I was thinking about making the ECCM module much more effektive but high cap consuming.
I mean you sacrificing one med slot for this, combined with really high cap costs should make ECM and ECCM a nice mini-tactical game in combat.
What do you think about this idea?
discuss :-)
The idea itself is actually pretty good. It might save falcons from being beaten into complete uselessness by The Nerf Bat.
Too bad it got trolled so hard by the "cry more" people.
Most of them seem to have missed the high cap consumption part.
Say, if a jammed ship could pay ~1/3 of it's cap to be immune to ECM for ~30 seconds. Wouldn't that allow for some interesting tactical decisions?
This addresses the infamous "frustration of being permajammed". Don't like being unable to do anything? Well, you can pay 1/3 cap for the get-out-of-jail card. Gives the ECM target more control over the situation (for the price of cap and a mid-slot) while still keeping the falcons very useful and dangerous. Win-win?
So 4 jammers = perma jam as the first 3 use up all the ships cap to break (1/3 each)?. And thats for a ship with full cap, a ship that has used a bit only takes 3 to jam...
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
Solo is all about skill not ship fits.....
Originally by: Amira Shadowsong
...The anti inty fit is absolutely crap against cruisers and AFs.
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lecrotta
Minmatar
lecrotta Corp
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Posted - 2009.02.04 10:18:00 -
[55]
Edited by: lecrotta on 04/02/2009 10:18:47
Originally by: Burn Mac
Falcon is overpowered since it has alot of bonuses for ECM no ship has bonuses to ECCM.
Different ships have different sig str especially BS, the ROKH has 24 base sig str while the geddon has 17 so the rokh is the better ship for anti falcon work especially because of its slot layout and range that allows the easy fitting of eccm units... |
Rordan D'Kherr
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Posted - 2009.02.04 10:45:00 -
[56]
Originally by: H Lecter
I'm quite happy that so many people do not believe in ECCM. It gives an advantage to those who know about its usefulness.
QFT.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.02.04 11:19:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Rordan D'Kherr
Originally by: H Lecter
I'm quite happy that so many people do not believe in ECCM. It gives an advantage to those who know about its usefulness.
QFT.
Last night, a Falcon pilot convoed me and asked how much ECCM I had on my Cerberus, as he'd just used 5 gravi ECMs on me and they'd all failed. When I told him I had a sensor strength of almost 100, he called me a jerk. 
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lebrata
Hedion University
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Posted - 2009.02.04 11:26:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Rordan D'Kherr
Originally by: H Lecter
I'm quite happy that so many people do not believe in ECCM. It gives an advantage to those who know about its usefulness.
QFT.
Last night, a Falcon pilot convoed me and asked how much ECCM I had on my Cerberus, as he'd just used 5 gravi ECMs on me and they'd all failed. When I told him I had a sensor strength of almost 100, he called me a jerk.
3 eccm give the cerb around 90 str with 2 free mids and a rack of lows to fit other mods....
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Rennion
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Posted - 2009.02.04 11:36:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Rennion on 04/02/2009 11:40:51
Edited by: Rennion on 04/02/2009 11:37:34
Originally by: lebrata
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Rordan D'Kherr
Originally by: H Lecter
I'm quite happy that so many people do not believe in ECCM. It gives an advantage to those who know about its usefulness.
QFT.
Last night, a Falcon pilot convoed me and asked how much ECCM I had on my Cerberus, as he'd just used 5 gravi ECMs on me and they'd all failed. When I told him I had a sensor strength of almost 100, he called me a jerk.
3 eccm give the cerb around 90 str with 2 free mids and a rack of lows to fit other mods....
And if he has bad luck on a roll of the dice he still gets jammed and the falcon warps off. Toguh **** eh, L2fiteccm oh wait...
The only thing I really hate is the random factor, it makes a mockery of counters and a 20 sec you cant do anything haha effect is very powerfull, esp in eve where there are no other stun/mez effects to match it.
Basically all of ECM's mechanics stick out like a sore thumb compared to the rest of eve ewar, its random chance, piloting ability cannot effect it, it's counter module has no secondary benefit. It is, in fact, better than other ewar in every single way possible.
Obviously dosen't need changing though, just fit eccm in all your mids and roll the dice noobs.
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Major Celine
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Posted - 2009.02.04 11:42:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Rennion
The only thing I really hate is the random factor,
I am sorry that you do not like it. EVE is a cruel game.
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