Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass

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I'd happily insta pop a salvage ninja and then dock up to wait out the agression timer. I'd also happily call in a gang mate in a ceptor to pod his ass back to whereever he came from. I'll live with the risks.

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Quote:

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EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.

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Originally by: RedSplat

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Simply make all Deadspaces small pockets of 0.0. The Missionrunners can shot at the ebil Ninja Salvagers.

That is what you want right?

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Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass

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Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 05/02/2009 23:21:35

Originally by: Kahega Amielden

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Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass

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And yes wrecks belong to someone. Click on one and select "show info". Yeah there's a name there. If you blow up a yellow wreck in high sec, see how long it takes concord to show up. This is why so many consider it stealing.

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Nope. The little picture refers to the person who owns the loot inside the wreck, not the wreck itself. The picture appearing on the "show info" of the wreck is purely an interface convenience.

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So why does concord show up if you blow up an empty wreck with someone else's picture on it?

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Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass

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rabble...rabble

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Originally by: Sir Substance

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thats what we call a database convenience. wrecks are containers. running a check to see if a container in space has something owned by somebody else every time someone shoots at one would put a lot of load on the server. so they dont. they just assume it is and sic concord on you.

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Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass

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Edited by: Fullmetal Jackass on 07/02/2009 20:29:17
Where do you all keep getting these "salvage laws"? Salvaged property still belongs to the original owner as long as he pays who ever salvaged it for his work.

"Unlike land based volunteer acts to save property, the person who saves property at sea is entitled to a reward which is generously computed in light of the fundamental public policy involved. Public policy, to encourage mariners to provide prompt service in emergencies, is to award compensation much greater than the value of the actual labor involved."

Spoils of war on the other hand generally belong to the winner, IE whoever created the wreck.

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Originally by: Ninjasalvagingislegal

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Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass

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rabble...rabble

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You're logic is completely flawed. You feel that CCP is going to change this, they already have. When Salvaging was first introduced, you had to loot a wreck before you could salvage it. People complained and CCP realized that their new mini-profession wouldn't become a reality without some changes. So they dropped the looting requirement and now you are left with the system that we have today. So...yeah CCP does change their mind but rarely do they flip-flop and then flip back to the original method.

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Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass

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Ya know what, I'd be happy if they just flagged players for entering a mission without permission.

You wanna salvage belts? Fine, You wanna salvage closed missions? Fine. You wanna salvage active non dead space missions? Fine. You step into my dead space mission though, and I want the option of blowing you to hell.

It gets old when someone stealing my spoils hides behind concord. That's not a sand box. That's CCP sanctioned griefing.

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Originally by: CCP Prism X

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Why is stealing salvage OK?
It's not.
It shouldn't even be possible to move an item from your cargo-hold / hanger to another persons cargo-hold / hanger without opening a trade window. Before the salvage enters those containers it is not considered your stuff by the server code. Hence it's not stealing.

If you're surprised as to why the server does not consider it your stuff, it's because it's a mini profession designed for people who want to roam and look for salvage, not to further increase the revenue from mission grinding.. I doubt anyone with a perspective thinks we need to high-sec increase mission grinding any further.

Simple solution to the non-issue.
Please don't take this as any bashing just for suggesting ideas. I have nothing against brainstorming on the forums. However, I'm going to let you in on a little CCP non-secret which is: "NPE".
EVE is a really hostile game. We love how hostile it is.. we never meant for it to be a breeze. However, it's also accepted that, on top of the intended complexity, the tools and rules you play with/by aren't highly intuative. You are suggesting a dual functionality.. one for newbies and another for vets (of course you did not say that, however just because some people chill in newb corps and ain't newbs doesn't mean we should punish the new players) and to compound the inherent confusion in that the newbie functionality is more hostile and more open to griefing than the veteran functionality. It shouldn't be much different.. and if it had to be it should be the other way around.

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Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass

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Yeah I read it.

Did you read this? I posted it earlier in the thread:

Question
Why is it so easy to steal ore ?

Answer
The regular containers were designed to jettison unwanted items into space or to hold loot from blown up ships. They were designed so that any player could take from them because that was essential for them to function as they were intended. Players later invented the "container mining" method after noticing that the containers could hold way more than any cargo hold. This use for the containers was never intended and it has the obvious flaw that any player with a reduced sense of right and wrong can come by and take everything from the container and no one can do anything about it.

This risk should be known to all players and there will be no reimbursement for ore lost this way. Also, ore "theft" is not considered harassment so no punishment will be dealt out to those who choose to "steal". Players who are thinking of taking up a career as ore thiefs should note that they will face a lifetime of unpopularity and unhappiness as a result.

CCP has decided to meet players halfway by implementing secure containers that can be bought on the market and have the advantage of being equipped with a password lock. These containers cost money and do not hold the vast amount of ore that the regular containers do. However, with good organization and frequent ore pickups using Industrial ships, they can be very useful for large scale mining operations.

The bottom line is: If you use regular containers to store your ore you assume all the risk. Having your valuables floating in space in an unsecured container is equivalent to throwing money on the street. Should you lurk nearby and wait for someone to take the money and then attack him, the police would deal with you, not him. The same goes in Eve. If you attack a player who just took "your" ore from a regular container in a system with a security level of 0.5 or higher. You will be destroyed by Concord.


CCP most certainly does go back on intended features when it has to. As they should.

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Originally by: Ninjasalvagingislegal

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But like I said before, you fail. And here is why, CCP has already went back on their intended function of salvaging. Salvaging used to incur a flag because you had to loot a wreck before salvaging it. CCP went back on that and removed the requirement and flag. Now anyone can salvage a wreck. You can whine a complain like a 3 year old all you want but they aren't going to give high-sec mission runners any more easy income.

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Originally by: Fullmetal Jackass

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Originally by: Ninjasalvagingislegal

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But like I said before, you fail. And here is why, CCP has already went back on their intended function of salvaging. Salvaging used to incur a flag because you had to loot a wreck before salvaging it. CCP went back on that and removed the requirement and flag. Now anyone can salvage a wreck. You can whine a complain like a 3 year old all you want but they aren't going to give high-sec mission runners any more easy income.

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Maybe if you say "you fail" enough, you'll win the internet. Lemme know how that works out.

And stealing loot used to not flag you, then CCP went back and added secure cans to give people ownership of stuff they put in space while still keeping loot FFA, they introduced secure cans. Anyone could still take loot from a wreck, but people could store stuff in space. You can throw childish insults all you like but ccp has gone back on desicions before, and they will again if enough people dislike the current mechanics.

Oh and grow up.

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Originally by: Ninjasalvagingislegal

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Have you played the game since 2005? Loot isn't FFA, you get flagged if you steal loot or did you forget that point?

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Originally by: Onys Cissalc

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Now as to why this would affect newer players.


Back in the old days, people mined into jetcans and there was NO flagging mechanic for 'theft' whatsoever.

Because of this and the abundance of people mining into cans, ore theft was rife - anyone and everyone mining into a jetcan could expect to have to deal with an ore thief at one point or another; didn't matter if it was a BoBbit or just some two day old noob in his bantam.

So jetcan theft flagging was introduced. What do you think happened?

The thieves started avoiding stealing from people that they knew posed a threat to them (hint: they were in it to make money, not to annoy people; dying was not in their best interests as it was counter productive to making money - understand how the spice flows?).

They instead went after the smaller corps or younger players, or most preferably the players that weren't in a corp at all, because they knew the threat was far lower and thus they could 'steal in safety'.


So obviously, the younger players were hit most by this - unfortunately, because the masses complained about it incessantly, the mechanic was introduced. Now we still have scores of people complaining that their ore gets stolen if they mine into a jetcan, because they don't want to have to join large(r) corps to have safety in numbers. See how the spice flows?


The same applies in large part to missions as they stand right now. People are perfectly willing to steal the loot of individual mission runners along with salvaging all the wrecks, because they are fairly confident that the mission runner will not only not be able to kill them, but that they will be able to possibly kill the mission runner instead, get some free (rather valuable mind you) loot out of the npc's and maybe even some loot out of the mission runner, if not a ransom for their release.

You'll seldom see the same behaviour applied to mission runners belonging to larger corps, tho. See how ths spice flows?



So, now, let's pretend for a second that salvaging also gives a flag. The players that are experienced in this kind of gameplay (read: older) won't care for the mission runner being present, they'll simply go right ahead and take not only salvage but more actively loot as well, because they are, after all, in this to make isk. If they find large(r) corps or groups of players, on the other hand, they'll avoid them and rather go for a different probing result.

See how the spice flows?




Bears have, over the years, whined for changes that have done nothing but hurt younger players while bolstering older players residing in large corps. Some of these new players don't like the kinds of rules and/or restrictions that these corps place on them, or want to do things with a small, tight knit group of friends. The second this kind of salvage mechanic is introduced we will see a shift of focus from *everyone* to *individuals*. This would just result in more whining.


I'm tired of the whining

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Originally by: Red Flag

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Player019910 Asks you permission to salvage wreck number 2218: Yes or No?

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