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Cadde Gallente Gene Works AKA-AHN KINGDOM	Posted - 2009.02.06 07:49:00 - [61] Originally by: Tiberius Maddox You may want to read what's already been posted a little closer. It doesn't matter where or how it is posted, Goon leadership admitted in the EVE-radio interview that they stole information from a private website and intend to make it public. If that happens, it's actionable in court if it includes personal information. You can say it's stupid all you want, but that doesn't change a thing. With that logic of yours, if i say i will murder a person in central London tomorrow and someone actually ends up murdered there i am OFC the one guilty of the act because i said i would? The logic fails because ANYONE with the forum information can make it available and it requires more proof than someone saying they will do it. All suspects are innocent until proven (without a doubt) otherwise. Originally by: Tiberius Maddox But let's put it to the test. Why don't we get CCP to post your real name, home address and telephone number here on the forums. If you're foolish enough to believe that isn't actionable in court, I fear there isn't much point in talking with you. As much as i prefer not to share phone number and address with others i know for a fact that many people can link me to a physical person based on my nickname alone. I am listed in the phone book and i am really easy to find. I am not one to hide behind my computer screen. Originally by: Tiberius Maddox This is a game, Cadde. You don't do screw around with real world privacy information as part of a game. Unless you're a complete idiot. I hope the Goon leadership is smarter than that. Yes this is a game, i am amazed at your perceptional skill. Doesn't change the fact that the BoB forums isn't technically part of the game but rather a separate entity and it is very easy for anyone with access to it to redistribute the information posted there without ever being linked to a physical person. I don't think you realize how easy it is to share stuff on the internet these days and never get caught. ---- Originally by: "Karlemgne" I'm not taking my own advice, but... have you ever purchased anything on the internet? If so, by your logic, you should expect, and be perfectly okay with, all of your personal information (including credit card, social security, etc) being copied and reposted somewhere else--without your express consent. When you remember that there are REAL world implications to certain acts, and not just video game l33t points, you should be able to cognize the seriousness of reposting private information, where privacy has been assumed, in public places without the consent of the original poster of said information. -Karlemgne There is a huge difference unless i am completely mistaken. Do the BoB forums require you to share your credit card number with them? If not what you just said doesn't apply to this situation at all. But to respond to your question. No, i wouldn't be fine with sharing my credit card number with some entity i don't trust. It just happens that i trust CCP enough to give them that information not to mention the GTC's I've bought from battleclinic through the use of paypal. I feel comfortable enough to share my information with them as they are monitored by 3rd party (government/official) financial inspectors. And should they ever share that information they will most likely be held responsible. I also get comfort in the fact, should my bank account become subject of an unlawful action where sufficient proof can be provided i will have whatever was taken refunded to my account under the banks insurance policy. Then there is the issue with who owns what. Virtual property is something humans have been fooled to believe they actually OWN. It's like owning the air you breathe. "It's my air, you can't have it!" or "It's my series of 1's and 0's, you can't have them!" Private information my ass... If you don't want it leaked then don't leak it to the internet in the first place. //Cadde
Cadde Gallente Gene Works AKA-AHN KINGDOM	Posted - 2009.02.06 07:56:00 - [62] Oh and one more thing Tiberius Maddox. (Am i allowed to copy+paste your "virtual name" or do i need your explicit permission... Should anyone gain access to a secure forum where i share secrets regarding my EvE activities i would have to be a royally utter completely mindless rock to go to a court and say "My game secrets have been stolen and i want to sue 'THIS' person because i KNOW he did it." The response would be something like: Do you have any PROOF? And no matter what kind of proof you can submit, it isn't valid in a court of law because it isn't physical proof and it is coming from an untrusted source. If any court in the world would take a series of 1's and 0's from someone accusing someone else as proof then that court is at fault.
Fury1980 Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.02.06 07:58:00 - [63] just remove the personal info's and PDF this chit already... btw no ones gunna get sued of some text some guy obtained from a forum thats about an internet spaceship game.. so all you internet laywers need stfu tbh..sueing cost's $$$ especially if your case falls on deaf ears (and its a god dam internet spaceship game....without the email/rl name/phone no's ect being posted....it will get laughed out of court). i hate bob and goons...so idc...but i would like to read some of juicy chit :P
Zang Hoor	Posted - 2009.02.06 07:59:00 - [64] goons are lame hackers.. i hope ccp bans em all because hacking outside of eve might not involve ccp but it deeply involves the ingame life of eve, so it does have an efect... ban em..
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2009.02.06 08:00:00 - [65] Originally by: Cadde Oh and one more thing Tiberius Maddox. (Am i allowed to copy+paste your "virtual name" or do i need your explicit permission... Should anyone gain access to a secure forum where i share secrets regarding my EvE activities i would have to be a royally utter completely mindless rock to go to a court and say "My game secrets have been stolen and i want to sue 'THIS' person because i KNOW he did it." The response would be something like: Do you have any PROOF? And no matter what kind of proof you can submit, it isn't valid in a court of law because it isn't physical proof and it is coming from an untrusted source. If any court in the world would take a series of 1's and 0's from someone accusing someone else as proof then that court is at fault. Cyber fraud cases are taken to court all the time. There are reams of text on this in law books. Not sure if you were implying that there wasn't, or if you were just saying that in this case, with forum text, it'd be difficult or impossible to build a substantial case about it. If that's what you were saying then yes I'd agree.
Cadde Gallente Gene Works AKA-AHN KINGDOM	Posted - 2009.02.06 08:03:00 - [66] Originally by: Zang Hoor goons are lame hackers.. i hope ccp bans em all because hacking outside of eve might not involve ccp but it deeply involves the ingame life of eve, so it does have an efect... ban em.. I hope you are kidding... But in the off chance you are not, i laugh at your definition of hacking. They where given the forum details by the owner of the account. That isn't hacking. And for CCP to BAN anyone they would most likely want proof as any other respectable gaming corporation would want for such an act. Simply put: "The logs, they show nothing"
Ponderous Thunderstroke Republic War Machine Industries	Posted - 2009.02.06 08:05:00 - [67] Prediction? Pain...
rValdez5987 Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2009.02.06 08:08:00 - [68] Originally by: URUS FORGE Edited by: URUS FORGE on 06/02/2009 04:44:56 I pulled a coup de' grace in a game called infiltration. We had just crushed the top 16 teams of this fps realistic combat shooter mod for UT.. and they had thought we cheated. So suddenly I get an IM via ICQ from a team mate who a) doesnt ever use icq b) was always on voice coms So as most know icq throws up ip clear as a bell.. so one of my team says "Throw it in I.E!" so we do .. and up pops an FTP with our final opponents name all over it.. it has some 150gb of warez, movies that isn't protected in anyway.. etc.. And this mind you was back when systems an net speed wasnt quite as good as it is now. So we screen shot it.. delete the entire ftp.. and upload the screen shot. We recieved all sorts of threats and blah blah blah.. but the only thing that mattered was that we won. The reality is.. nothing can be done, nothing will be done.. except for possibly a lot of crow eating. Sorry but theres actually an internet taskforce now, somehow i bet it didnt even exist back then. offices all over hell, patriot act as well, kind of a pain if your not careful. Basically times have changed, you have to be more careful who you mess with now.
Cadde Gallente Gene Works AKA-AHN KINGDOM	Posted - 2009.02.06 08:11:00 - [69] Originally by: Dirk Magnum Cyber fraud cases are taken to court all the time. There are reams of text on this in law books. Not sure if you were implying that there wasn't, or if you were just saying that in this case, with forum text, it'd be difficult or impossible to build a substantial case about it. If that's what you were saying then yes I'd agree. How does this relate to "cyber fraud"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybercrime#Fraud Even in the off chance you could label the act of sharing the BoB forums with "theft of classified information" the BoB forums doesn't classify as "classified information" as it cannot cause financial damage to them. (Well, i sure hope so at least because if it can then the administrators of the forum have a responsibility that is beyond their ability and will suffer the full force of the lawsuit.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classified_information Apart from that small detail, I don't care if you agree or not. :D
Karlemgne Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.02.06 08:15:00 - [70] Originally by: Cadde With that logic of yours, if i say i will murder a person in central London tomorrow and someone actually ends up murdered there i am OFC the one guilty of the act because i said i would? No. Perhaps you weren't the one to do it. However, if you were to say, "I'm going to shoot John Doe on 10th street tomorrow 5 times in the face" and John Doe ended up shot 5 times in the face on 10th street, my guess is that you'd be in serious trouble. Quote: The logic fails because ANYONE with the forum information can make it available and it requires more proof than someone saying they will do it. All suspects are innocent until proven (without a doubt) otherwise. Oh, your right, of course. However that is MORE than enough to get a lawsuit into a US court. Then, of course, those being sued would have to defend themselves. And that's more than enough information to get the police to open a criminal investigation of you. And don't forget, in the United States, you just need to convince 7 people in a jury to win a lawsuit. Quote: As much as i prefer not to share phone number and address with others i know for a fact that many people can link me to a physical person based on my nickname alone. I am listed in the phone book and i am really easy to find. I am not one to hide behind my computer screen. Way to avoid the point completely. Who cares who can figure out who you are via your screen name. It doesn't change the legality of CCP posting your name, address, phone number, billing information, etc on this forum. Unless you consent, but I'm guessing you don't, because you aren't actually willing to post these things yourself here. Just vaguely remark that someone might know who you are. Quote: Yes this is a game, i am amazed at your perceptional skill. Doesn't change the fact that the BoB forums isn't technically part of the game but rather a separate entity and it is very easy for anyone with access to it to redistribute the information posted there without ever being linked to a physical person. I don't think you realize how easy it is to share stuff on the internet these days and never get caught. Actually its not. It would be very easy to trace IPs. Very easy to go after the web-host. Very, very easy. Especially given that we'd have good place to start. AND I'm guessing, despite your protests otherwise, this would IMMEDIATELY result (if there were personal information of players included) in the banning of certain members of the goons who bragged about how they were going to release the information. You see CCP can hit you with a ban stick if they just SUSPECT that you've done this. It is their game after all. Quote: There is a huge difference unless i am completely mistaken. Do the BoB forums require you to share your credit card number with them? If not what you just said doesn't apply to this situation at all. Well you aren't "required" to share your credit card information with anyone. You don't "need" to buy things online. But, more to your point, if the forums are private, their is an assumption that information posted there is private. Just like if you sign-up for a NAMBLA newsletter there is an assumption that your personal information is private. And even though NAMBLA is a disgusting organization, you'd be well within your rights to sue someone who stole your information from NAMBLA and released it. -Karlemgne

Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2009.02.06 08:23:00 - [71] Originally by: Cadde Originally by: Dirk Magnum Cyber fraud cases are taken to court all the time. There are reams of text on this in law books. Not sure if you were implying that there wasn't, or if you were just saying that in this case, with forum text, it'd be difficult or impossible to build a substantial case about it. If that's what you were saying then yes I'd agree. How does this relate to "cyber fraud"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybercrime#Fraud Even in the off chance you could label the act of sharing the BoB forums with "theft of classified information" the BoB forums doesn't classify as "classified information" as it cannot cause financial damage to them. (Well, i sure hope so at least because if it can then the administrators of the forum have a responsibility that is beyond their ability and will suffer the full force of the lawsuit.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classified_information Apart from that small detail, I don't care if you agree or not. :D My post was aimed primarily at Originally by: Cadde If any court in the world would take a series of 1's and 0's from someone accusing someone else as proof then that court is at fault. Courts will definitely take that stuff seriously. Goons and forums are a side issue.
Karlemgne Tides Of War	Posted - 2009.02.06 08:26:00 - [72] Originally by: Cadde Originally by: Zang Hoor goons are lame hackers.. i hope ccp bans em all because hacking outside of eve might not involve ccp but it deeply involves the ingame life of eve, so it does have an efect... ban em.. I hope you are kidding... But in the off chance you are not, i laugh at your definition of hacking. They where given the forum details by the owner of the account. That isn't hacking. And for CCP to BAN anyone they would most likely want proof as any other respectable gaming corporation would want for such an act. Simply put: "The logs, they show nothing" I guess you weren't around for the T20 thing. CCP have handed out perma bans on less and WILL again. -Karlemgne
Cadde Gallente Gene Works AKA-AHN KINGDOM	Posted - 2009.02.06 08:37:00 - [73] Originally by: Karlemgne No. Perhaps you weren't the one to do it. However, if you were to say, "I'm going to shoot John Doe on 10th street tomorrow 5 times in the face" and John Doe ended up shot 5 times in the face on 10th street, my guess is that you'd be in serious trouble. Now you are pushing it further just to prove your point. Mitnal hasn't said he will release the forum detail on site XXX at exactly YYY pm, nor do i expect that to happen. And should i say that i would commit the act of murder with the specific place and other details i would become a suspect. I would still have to plead guilty as charged or have further evidence presented against me to be convicted. (Unless we are talking some messed up US court where you are guilty until proven innocent) Originally by: Karlemgne Oh, your right, of course. However that is MORE than enough to get a lawsuit into a US court. Then, of course, those being sued would have to defend themselves. And that's more than enough information to get the police to open a criminal investigation of you. And don't forget, in the United States, you just need to convince 7 people in a jury to win a lawsuit. If 7 people of the jury would go on shady internet data alone then there is something terribly wrong with the jury. That is how innocent people get convicted and the guilty go free. Originally by: Karlemgne Way to avoid the point completely. Who cares who can figure out who you are via your screen name. It doesn't change the legality of CCP posting your name, address, phone number, billing information, etc on this forum. Unless you consent, but I'm guessing you don't, because you aren't actually willing to post these things yourself here. Just vaguely remark that someone might know who you are. I said i prefer CCP didn't. Doesn't mean i would file a law suit against them, what do i have to gain from it apart from some money? I'd rather spend my free time doing things i want to do. And it is very relevant in my case because there are more than just a few who know who i am and where i come from. I am proud of the fact i am slightly famous. Doesn't mean i spread the information just to prove a point. Originally by: Karlemgne Actually its not. It would be very easy to trace IPs. Very easy to go after the web-host. Very, very easy. Especially given that we'd have good place to start. AND I'm guessing, despite your protests otherwise, this would IMMEDIATELY result (if there were personal information of players included) in the banning of certain members of the goons who bragged about how they were going to release the information. You see CCP can hit you with a ban stick if they just SUSPECT that you've done this. It is their game after all. The web host might actually be a BoB member with revenge in their heart. Can the information be trusted and is it really worth all the effort and money just to have justice served? It won't undo the "damage" done. Should it actually go that far then i guess CCP would take action out of principle but i find it very doubtful they go around and ban subscribers on a suspicion alone. Otherwise i could provide "SOLID" evidence that player XYZ is a RMT trader and he would be struck by the ban hammer on my words alone. Originally by: Karlemgne Well you aren't "required" to share your credit card information with anyone. You don't "need" to buy things online. But, more to your point, if the forums are private, their is an assumption that information posted there is private. Just like if you sign-up for a NAMBLA newsletter there is an assumption that your personal information is private. And even though NAMBLA is a disgusting organization, you'd be well within your rights to sue someone who stole your information from NAMBLA and released it. -Karlemgne Private is when you do the fap FAP fap FAP fap FAP... The internet isn't private, it's public domain no matter what like it to be. Only money making corps can be considered "private" online.
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2009.02.06 08:46:00 - [74] Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 06/02/2009 08:51:29 it is not important what the content is. reading someones private messages is not allowed and it is even worse to make them public. and this has nothing to with being laywers, this is common knowledge. I wonder what they taught you at school. I guess the education level is much higher in some states
nightrain914	Posted - 2009.02.06 09:07:00 - [75] fun fact: The Mittani is a lawyer.
Cadde Gallente Gene Works AKA-AHN KINGDOM	Posted - 2009.02.06 09:23:00 - [76] Edited by: Cadde on 06/02/2009 09:25:50 Edited by: Cadde on 06/02/2009 09:24:59 Edited by: Cadde on 06/02/2009 09:24:26 BTW, if anyone want to sue anyone here. This is a good place to start... http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?t=3604 Good luck with that........ Also, since i have encourage "criminal" action you can go ahead and sue me! Good luck with that........ Have a good day. EDIT: OMG, what does that even mean? Kugut>sumen that is. Just delete the "" in the url. Eve online forums censor it.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2009.02.06 09:33:00 - [77] Edited by: Andrue on 06/02/2009 09:34:47 If the forum is hosted in the UK it presumably falls under the remit of The Data Protection Act. But different countries have different rules. The US for instance isn't as strict about personal information. There was a lot of fuss and bother over personel information when we were taken over by a US company. From what little I remember I got the impression that passing around names, addresses and telephone numbers was no big deal in the US. It is in the UK(). I'm not sure how/if this applies to a private website but I reckon it does. ()Unless of course you represent the government or its agencies. Then it's okay to use it, pass it around, lose it in the post or just leave it lying around in a pub.
MilowFV Echo Heavy Industries	Posted - 2009.02.06 23:04:00 - [78] I am going to go out on a limb here. If Goonswarm publish bob forum absolutely nothing will happen. I guess the Internet lawyers can debate who all will go to jail and how big the fine will be just so they can have something to post about, but don't really expect anything to happen.
Asestorian Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes	Posted - 2009.02.06 23:08:00 - [79] Why is anyone still talking about what happens if the goons publish it after BoB already published it? :\
Illiya Caldari GoonFleet	Posted - 2009.02.07 01:25:00 - [80] Originally by: Tholarim Who reinforced those towers in the first place. Who thought up the idea? Who planned it with ET? Who sieged 3-l? and acutally thought up a **ing strategy? Before you call someone an armchair general, you better get your facts straight. Me and cflux put a load of effort into this. And the ing fact is that last nights **ed siege cost us alot more then just a few ships. I'm not gonna do all this prep work anymore to see people it up cus they think we're still top dog. We're not, wake up and smell the ing coffee. And ignoring the problem won't fix it molle. Unless you guys are seriously commited to improving the alliance we're doomed to fail down here again. Why don't you guys actually think about what went wrong for a change instead of laughing it off thinking your still the worlds greatest. Quote: "Btw we suck at intel more then hydra, when we atack 1v- couple of weeks back i move my scout 34 jumps to get in 77s, because all i heard on command was "dont worry we will be OK". We move super caps and engage in cap fights without the minim amount of intel, because we are BOB and we can not be hot dropped, ques what like thol said, we are just another average alliance with lots of isk and lots of titans we are so far away from the elite of EVE that we are afraid to admit it." Originally by:** cflux while I consider EXE a spyfilled festering piece of crap they are still our best festering piece of crap, but we should not invite more

Gunnanmon Gallente UNITED STAR SYNDICATE	Posted - 2009.02.07 01:36:00 - [81] ibt ... "OP has no constructive content. Locked".
Concorduck Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.07 01:45:00 - [82] Mittens doesn't even know where's the BOB Private Forum, far from having anything relevant on his hands.
Munchees	Posted - 2009.02.07 02:09:00 - [83] Originally by: Cpt Cosmic Edited by: Cpt Cosmic on 06/02/2009 09:04:52 it is not important what the content is. reading someones private messages is not allowed and it is even worse to make them public. and this has nothing to do with being laywers, this is common knowledge. I wonder what they taught you at school. I guess the education level is much higher in some states Actually, you can publish PM's and stuff like that, and get away with it as long as there is no personal info in it, such as a name, social security number, credit card number, etc. If you sent a PM to me saying you though I was a sexy devil, and wanted to make love to me, than I can publish it without any legal consequences.


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