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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 3 post(s)
Tuttomenui II Gallente Byrds Research And Development	Posted - 2009.02.10 09:27:00 - [1] I read about this in someone elses thread who was listing some of the stuff noobs will get. Well heres a Screen shot of the skill training screen for a new charactor. LINK
Mal'ol Soddo	Posted - 2009.02.10 09:32:00 - [2] Interesting if not shopped.

Chribba Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire	Posted - 2009.02.10 09:35:00 - [3] Why not give them the 13.37M SP and get over it already?

Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.02.10 09:36:00 - [4] Listening to MMO podcasts, I've been lead to understand that the way WoW currently works is that if you get up to XYZ level, you can jump automatically to much higher levels or something (I'm not exactly sure how that works) so that you can enjoy content that older players are able to enjoy (of course they profit by selling these high level expansions, too so it's in their best interest to boost players so they can play it immediately). Some other MMOs apparently have a LOTR "fellowship" type of gimmick where others gain XP while their "mates" are online doing stuff. I wonder how long until CCP uses such gimmicks. Meh. Also... SKILL POINT WEEKEND BLOWOUT! EARN 2X SP WHILE LOGGED IN THIS WEEKEND ONLY OMGWTFBBQ! (You know it's going to happen, eventually).
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.10 09:38:00 - [5] Edited by: MotherMoon on 10/02/2009 09:40:12 Originally by: Qordel Listening to MMO podcasts, I've been lead to understand that the way WoW currently works is that if you get up to XYZ level, you can jump automatically to much higher levels or something (I'm not exactly sure how that works) so that you can enjoy content that older players are able to enjoy (of course they profit by selling these high level expansions, too so it's in their best interest to boost players so they can play it immediately). Some other MMOs apparently have a LOTR "fellowship" type of gimmick where others gain XP while their "mates" are online doing stuff. I wonder how long until CCP uses such gimmicks. Meh. Also... SKILL POINT WEEKEND BLOWOUT! EARN 2X SP WHILE LOGGED IN THIS WEEKEND ONLY OMGWTFBBQ! (You know it's going to happen, eventually). no it won't , you don't have to be logged in to train. this is really stupid, I can't believe they would nerf new players this much :( giving them 50,000 sp again, and no learning skills... they said "oh hey you have double the skill training speed!" but they lie, your about 8 points lower than the current characters, in fact you train the same speed. this is such bull****, lowering new player sp AND lower their learning time is not fair to anyone.
TR4D3R4LT	Posted - 2009.02.10 09:39:00 - [6] Originally by: Chribba Why not give them the 13.37M SP and get over it already? I dont care if it's Chribba I need to smite with patch notes. "New characters now receive a bonus to skill training speed when under a specific SP level. This is to account for the removal of many of the automatic starter skills. The bonus is temporary and only until the player catches up with "modern" characters (i.e. those that start with 800k skill points today). Namely, the player gets a 100% bonus from creation and until he reaches 1.6 Million Skill Points, regardless of the time that takes. A player is shown his current % bonus to his skill training in the character sheet underneath the total amount of skills and skill points." From Read and weep FAKE EDIT: Wait, did I get trolled by Swede-boy? Dang.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.10 09:41:00 - [7] Originally by: TR4D3R4LT Originally by: Chribba Why not give them the 13.37M SP and get over it already? I dont care if it's Chribba I need to smite with patch notes. "New characters now receive a bonus to skill training speed when under a specific SP level. This is to account for the removal of many of the automatic starter skills. The bonus is temporary and only until the player catches up with "modern" characters (i.e. those that start with 800k skill points today). Namely, the player gets a 100% bonus from creation and until he reaches 1.6 Million Skill Points, regardless of the time that takes. A player is shown his current % bonus to his skill training in the character sheet underneath the total amount of skills and skill points." From Read and weep FAKE EDIT: Wait, did I get trolled by Swede-boy? Dang. so in other words, if you don't use those 1.6 million sp to train learning skills you **** yourelf over forever. awesome
Shenko Minara	Posted - 2009.02.10 09:56:00 - [8] Originally by: Chribba Why not give them the 13.37M SP and get over it already? You are one of the worst posters anywhere on the internet. 13.37? What is this, 1998?
Tuttomenui II Gallente Byrds Research And Development	Posted - 2009.02.10 10:10:00 - [9] Originally by: Shenko Minara Originally by: Chribba Why not give them the 13.37M SP and get over it already? You are one of the worst posters anywhere on the internet. 13.37? What is this, 1998? Chribba doesnt need to post less, hes the lord of EvE, all hail him, except aparently you. There are countless services he has running for us to, eve-search, and eve-files, and im sure a butt load more. Also yes I was hoping people would read the screen shot more closely, the 100% bonus is temperary until sp level is higher. Sorry I didnt expound upon it more, but im busy testing out the new charactor rolling expirience. It looks like you have to go to agents to choose your career now, all you do at charactor creation is choose race, choose tribe and choose birth right, then choose what you have between your avatars legs morph your face and thats it. It auto adds the extra attribute points for you. I kind of dont like this as it makes you use the readjust to customise it thus using up one of your free readjusts. First should be free and not count. ^^ My Signiture is an actual Signiture WOW!!!^^
Joe Chance Gallente En Hakkore Zantiu-Braun Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.10 10:15:00 - [10] Originally by: Tuttomenui II Originally by: Shenko Minara Originally by: Chribba Why not give them the 13.37M SP and get over it already? You are one of the worst posters anywhere on the internet. 13.37? What is this, 1998? Chribba doesnt need to post less, hes the lord of EvE, all hail him, except aparently you. There are countless services he has running for us to, eve-search, and eve-files, and im sure a butt load more. Also yes I was hoping people would read the screen shot more closely, the 100% bonus is temperary until sp level is higher. Sorry I didnt expound upon it more, but im busy testing out the new charactor rolling expirience. It looks like you have to go to agents to choose your career now, all you do at charactor creation is choose race, choose tribe and choose birth right, then choose what you have between your avatars legs morph your face and thats it. It auto adds the extra attribute points for you. I kind of dont like this as it makes you use the readjust to customise it thus using up one of your free readjusts. First should be free and not count. That's two.

Qordel Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.02.10 10:24:00 - [11] Originally by: MotherMoon Edited by: MotherMoon on 10/02/2009 09:40:12 Originally by: Qordel Listening to MMO podcasts, I've been lead to understand that the way WoW currently works is that if you get up to XYZ level, you can jump automatically to much higher levels or something (I'm not exactly sure how that works) so that you can enjoy content that older players are able to enjoy (of course they profit by selling these high level expansions, too so it's in their best interest to boost players so they can play it immediately). Some other MMOs apparently have a LOTR "fellowship" type of gimmick where others gain XP while their "mates" are online doing stuff. I wonder how long until CCP uses such gimmicks. Meh. Also... SKILL POINT WEEKEND BLOWOUT! EARN 2X SP WHILE LOGGED IN THIS WEEKEND ONLY OMGWTFBBQ! (You know it's going to happen, eventually). no it won't , you don't have to be logged in to train. You missed the 2x while logged in. Anyway, they're not going to make the barrier for entry harder. If anything, they're going to keep making it easier, to attract new subscriptions. --
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.02.10 11:31:00 - [12] Originally by: Tuttomenui II Originally by: Shenko Minara Originally by: Chribba Why not give them the 13.37M SP and get over it already? You are one of the worst posters anywhere on the internet. 13.37? What is this, 1998? Chribba doesnt need to post less, hes the lord of EvE, all hail him, except aparently you. There are countless services he has running for us to, eve-search, and eve-files, and im sure a butt load more. Also yes I was hoping people would read the screen shot more closely, the 100% bonus is temperary until sp level is higher. Sorry I didnt expound upon it more, but im busy testing out the new charactor rolling expirience. It looks like you have to go to agents to choose your career now, all you do at charactor creation is choose race, choose tribe and choose birth right, then choose what you have between your avatars legs morph your face and thats it. It auto adds the extra attribute points for you. I kind of dont like this as it makes you use the readjust to customise it thus using up one of your free readjusts. First should be free and not count. It's very cool that your so taken with him and his services. I'm sure he's a cool guy and have no problem with him at all. Not everyone swoons at the things Chribba provides. Worship him in silence please.
Ancy Denaries Caldari Solaris Operations	Posted - 2009.02.10 11:42:00 - [13] Originally by: Qordel Listening to MMO podcasts, I've been lead to understand that the way WoW currently works is that if you get up to XYZ level, you can jump automatically to much higher levels or something (I'm not exactly sure how that works) so that you can enjoy content that older players are able to enjoy (of course they profit by selling these high level expansions, too so it's in their best interest to boost players so they can play it immediately). Some other MMOs apparently have a LOTR "fellowship" type of gimmick where others gain XP while their "mates" are online doing stuff. I wonder how long until CCP uses such gimmicks. Meh. Also... SKILL POINT WEEKEND BLOWOUT! EARN 2X SP WHILE LOGGED IN THIS WEEKEND ONLY OMGWTFBBQ! (You know it's going to happen, eventually). You also COMPLETELY missed that all new characters start with a whooping 50k SP instead of 800k. L2read? The increased training is also limited until the character has 1,6 mil SP. ----- EVE is a PvP game. Adaptation is your survival.
Flinchey Amarr	Posted - 2009.02.10 12:39:00 - [14] does anyone else here.. have a problem with new players now being able to train all rank 1 learning skills to V... and all rank two to IV at HALF PAYOFF TIME 50% time to learn them = 50% time to pay them off. thats bs ccp.
Gartel Reiman Civis Romanus Sum	Posted - 2009.02.10 12:59:00 - [15] Originally by: Flinchey does anyone else here.. have a problem with new players now being able to train all rank 1 learning skills to V... and all rank two to IV at HALF PAYOFF TIME 50% time to learn them = 50% time to pay them off. thats bs ccp. No it's not. CCP have already stated that they feel they made a mistake with learning skills; something that I can see where they're coming from for sure, and certainly agree with the general feeling if not the strong assertion. In particular it is pretty bad for the newer players, since when you have low skills everywhere, that's when you get the biggest bang for your buck in training 'real' skills, but at the same time you really ought to be training learning skills to help in the longer term. Reducing the starting skills, and giving the player double training speed so that they have the same total SP after a month or so, is really all about giving them a better choice in where they want to be skill-wise after a month. I suspect that initially, the career choices were meant to be some sort of guide for the newer players as to how to progress; now, the certificates have taken over that role to some extent. In any case, giving the younger players more choice over what skills to train in that important first month and getting them to the fundamental level of competence quicker is definitely a good thing, as long as they have sufficient guidance about what to train. I haven't seen the new tutorials which I believe go through this, and with certificates available (in particular the Professions ones) it's certainly not worse than it was previously. And preempting some responses - the whole "we had to do it [normal speed training for learning skills] so they should to" argument doesn't hold any water. If something's bad, and there's a solution to it, it ought to be implemented. Should we still be sending children up chimneys because at each generation, their parents had to do it so they should too? Besides, letting new players become useful slightly faster benefits just about everyone. They get to be more involved with the game, corps get more useful members, and the pirates get more overconfident young things venturing into lowsec...
Flinchey Amarr	Posted - 2009.02.10 13:06:00 - [16] um... that's not the point new players can know things about the game too such as getting these learning skills up in half the time for half payoff would be beneficial to me in the longrun i'd do it. without a second thought. whereas now, with the full payoff time it's kinda a tough choice.
midge Mo'yb Antares Shipyards	Posted - 2009.02.10 13:07:00 - [17] Sweet, instant Cyno alts ehre i come :D
Disteeler Segunda Fundacion Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.02.10 13:11:00 - [18] Maybe CCP want to start selling 100% learning speed boosts for Ç/$ using the new redeem system. It's not gamebreaking, it doesen't create anything out of thin air, etc. but you know...it's mehh.
Gartel Reiman Civis Romanus Sum	Posted - 2009.02.10 13:15:00 - [19] Originally by: Flinchey Originally by: Gartel Reiman In particular it is pretty bad for the newer players, since when you have low skills everywhere, that's when you get the biggest bang for your buck in training 'real' skills, but at the same time you really ought to be training learning skills to help in the longer term. this doesn't change that. they SHOULD be training learning skills still. and NOW it's even more beneficial to do so. 100% more beneficial in fact. I agree with this. And I consider it a good thing that new players can get their learning skills "done" quicker, and so move on to training real skills and actually advancing their character's abilities. Your opposition to this seems to be based solely on the argument that "well it took me two/three months to train up learning, it ought to take that long for them too!" I just don't see the benefit in trying to keep new players down, it's not like you win by having more skill points than them in the long run (which incidentally you still will do anyway). This makes things better for new players, and unless you're being bitter about the Bad Old Days, that's good for everyone.
The Djego Minmatar merovinger inc	Posted - 2009.02.10 13:17:00 - [20] Personaly I like it. It reduces the options for the throw away Alt comunity, since they have only 60k SP after Char creation and helps people to spec faster and get the stuff they want in the beginning faster. Afterall 900k + Normal SP Rate == 60k + dubble SP rate till 1.6 M SP in the end, only diffrence it gives you more controll and making the start less boring. ---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank! Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.

Gartel Reiman Civis Romanus Sum	Posted - 2009.02.10 13:29:00 - [21] Originally by: The Djego It reduces the options for the throw away Alt comunity, since they have only 60k SP after Char creation and helps people to spec faster and get the stuff they want in the beginning faster. Yeah, I meant to mention this but forgot - stealth nerf to instant market alts and the like. Quote: Combined with the new option to stack short skills within 24h, it will make the new player experience more interesting and less boring in the end. Right. I figure that CCP ideally wanted to go with something like this overall, but without a (even 24h) training queue, people starting with 60k SP would not have enough long skills to train overnight/while at work to sustain the whole "it doesn't matter if you have a life" advancement thing. (And yes, I know that back in the past characters used to start with this many SP and no skill queue, but it makes sense that after CCP 'fixed' this they didn't want to take a retrograde step in allowing freedom of initial development but making it impossible to avoid wasting training time for busy players.)
Aya Sin	Posted - 2009.02.10 13:43:00 - [22] Looks like a Good ThingÖ but it doesn't fix learnings. I still think those should be removed and attributes should increase passively while training other skills, i.e. learning Cruisers increases perc+will (in progressively smaller steps until +10)
Napro Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.02.10 13:51:00 - [23] Seems to me that this would facilitate the creation of spec'ed alts more than it would help new players Kinda lame that it took me 9 months to grind away at 8 million Sps and noobs are going to be given 2 mil on a silver platter
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.10 14:06:00 - [24] Originally by: Napro Seems to me that this would facilitate the creation of spec'ed alts more than it would help new players Kinda lame that it took me 9 months to grind away at 8 million Sps and noobs are going to be given 2 mil on a silver platter do the math they take away 800,000 sp from new players. they let you traina t double speed to get to 1,600,000 sp Thus it will take them just as long to get that high as it did for you.
Gartel Reiman Civis Romanus Sum	Posted - 2009.02.10 14:11:00 - [25] Originally by: Napro Kinda lame that it took me 9 months to grind away at 8 million Sps and noobs are going to be given 2 mil on a silver platter This does not result in new players getting any "free" SP. They start with ~800k skillpoints less than before, and now get double speed training until they hit 1.6m SP. In other words they get double speed training in the time it would have taken them to train 800k SP normally, so the double speed training stops at exactly the same time that they make up for their initial skillpoint deficit. In other words, if anything it's slightly less rosy to start with as you now start with less combat skills etc. in the very early days. Though I believe it's a better option overall, as it effectively allows new players to choose their starting stats, so it's more flexible in allowing them to get the best first 1.6m worth of skills that they want. Quote: Seems to me that this would facilitate the creation of spec'ed alts more than it would help new players Actually for a lot of cases it's going to be worse as you don't have any skills worth mentioning to start with. If you were going for something like a cyno alt, where none of the careers had any particularly relevant skills anyway, then yeah it's going to be easier. However, if you wanted something that could use T2 guns almost immediately, or a market alt with 50-odd market slots out of the box, then you'll now have to train them up for some time rather than having this functionality immediately (or with just a few hours' training). It'll actually be harder to get same-account (i.e. low- or no-training) alts with the new changes. And if there's an alt that you planned to train more than 1.6m SP worth of skills on anyway, it doesn't make a great deal of difference (it may be marginally faster since you don't have to "waste" some of your initial 1.6m points on skills that you might not want to learn, though with the right career choice there are very few of these that are actually useless anyway).
Napro Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.02.10 14:12:00 - [26] Yeah the difference being I had my 800K spread out amongst about 60 diff skills A newb or alt can focus those 1.6 on learnings entirely
Flinchey Amarr	Posted - 2009.02.10 14:22:00 - [27] Originally by: Gartel Reiman Originally by: Flinchey Originally by: Gartel Reiman In particular it is pretty bad for the newer players, since when you have low skills everywhere, that's when you get the biggest bang for your buck in training 'real' skills, but at the same time you really ought to be training learning skills to help in the longer term. this doesn't change that. they SHOULD be training learning skills still. and NOW it's even more beneficial to do so. 100% more beneficial in fact. I agree with this. And I consider it a good thing that new players can get their learning skills "done" quicker, and so move on to training real skills and actually advancing their character's abilities. Your opposition to this seems to be based solely on the argument that "well it took me two/three months to train up learning, it ought to take that long for them too!" I just don't see the benefit in trying to keep new players down, it's not like you win by having more skill points than them in the long run (which incidentally you still will do anyway). This makes things better for new players, and unless you're being bitter about the Bad Old Days, that's good for everyone. ahah, no, i know what you mean, lemme see if i can explain it better... it took me x many months to get to the 7.x m sp i have now it will take them SIGNIFICANTLY less time to get to that point it's not keeping them down its just that this invalidates my play time, allowing newer players to catch up to slightly older ones with extreme ease. say in a year, they will have caught up to me, and will be passing me, purely becuase their learning skills, instead of taking say a year to pay off, take half a year (figure would actually be a lot lower than that from my quick guesstimates) i dont care about ""well it took me two/three months to train up learning, it ought to take that long for them too!".. meh, i am my own player.. i care about a new player actually being BETTER OFF than an older player, in suach a significant way, should said newer player choose to train their learning skills. this makes it better for new players, and worse for old (ok, no im not old.. just... the 'newish' players then) players. if it was just better, i'd be moreee than happy to help out the newbies. but effectively disadvantaging the newish isn't fair.
Kalintos Tyl Minmatar	Posted - 2009.02.10 16:02:00 - [28] why they wont give normal lvl 4/ adv3 learnings and some frigate thingies at lvl 1. would work better. 60D GTC - shattared link
Ace2001	Posted - 2009.02.10 17:19:00 - [29] Edited by: Ace2001 on 10/02/2009 17:20:14 But the question is, how many newbies are going for the learning skills right off the bat? I've had two friends join EVE, and they were told to go for the learning skills right from the get-go. Instead, one went with a mix of combat/learning, and the other with a mix of mining/learning. (Who is now also working a bit towrds combat.) Neither one went fully Learning, THEN started on their other skills. Even with a doubled learning rate, how long would it take them to get all the learning skills to level 5 and advanced to level 4? A month? Two months?(It'd be better if I had hard numbers to give here, but off-hand I don't remember how long it takes exactly to get those skills up.) Do any of you honestly know a non-hardcore EVE gamer that would go that long without a new ship, or new weapons, etc. etc.? That would be stuck doing Level 1 missions for that long of a time because they were so busy working on learning skills, that they couldn't train up for a new/bigger/better ship/guns so that they could do the harder missions? Or so that they could mine more effeciently? Most newblets will probably spend that SP on ship/weapon skills, not on learning skills. (Or will do a mixture of the two.)
Gartel Reiman Civis Romanus Sum	Posted - 2009.02.10 18:12:00 - [30] Originally by: Flinchey Originally by: Gartel Reiman Your opposition to this seems to be based solely on the argument that "well it took me two/three months to train up learning, it ought to take that long for them too!" ahah, no, i know what you mean, lemme see if i can explain it better... it took me x many months to get to the 7.x m sp i have now it will take them SIGNIFICANTLY less time to get to that point No, it won't actually. All things being equal, it will take them exactly the same time to get to the 7m skillpoint level: Today's new players (including me and you): start at 800k SP, train another 800k SP (let's say it takes 1 month), now at 1.6m SP after a month. Over time, train up to 7m SP. Apocrypha new player: starts at 50k SP, trains another 1.55m SP at double speed (so it will take about a month as above); now at 1.6m SP after a month. Over time, train up to 7m SP. The only difference that might mean a new Apocrypha player can hit the 7m mark sooner, is that they can dedicate more of their first 800k skill points towards learning, thus having them pay off slightly sooner. However, there's a few things that make this less powerful than it might originally seem: * Some of the existing characters' 800k SP are in learning skills, so the absolute difference in learning skills "done" once a new new player hits the 800k mark (even assuming they go flat-out learning) is actually less than 800k. * New players are not going to be very competent at anything to start with, unlike today's new characters. Thus they're going to be incredible unlikely to train nothing but learning skills until they get some useful "actually do things in game" skills under their belt. * Even if despite this the new player still decides to train nothing but learning skills (and has a miserable time popping 0.8 belt rats for a month while he's at it), remember that the 100% bonus is not based on time, but on SP. As his training speed increases due to higher learning skills, the double speed training stops sooner and sooner in real-time, hence this will not stack like one might intuitively account for. Realistically the only way new players will get to any SP level quicker than old new players is if they train all learning skills right out of the gate, and even then this effect is not likely to be too pronounced. It's certainly not going to be significant, as you state, since even in the most impossible extreme case (where every learning skill can be trained in a second) the difference between a player training under the old and new schemes will be 800k SP at most. And don't forget that to do this they have to forgo lots of useful skills that most of us take for granted at character creation. In short - it's not actually going to make a vast amount of difference in terms of invalidating older players' time. For most, normal players this will end very similar to the old scheme but allowing them to choose specifically what skill to include in their "starting" set. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if general advice in future is to ignore training learning skills past level 1 or 2 until you have about a million skillpoints...

Fumen	Posted - 2009.02.10 18:48:00 - [31] Originally by: Gartel Reiman No, it won't actually. All things being equal, it will take them exactly the same time to get to the 7m skillpoint level: (....) In short - it's not actually going to make a vast amount of difference in terms of invalidating older players' time. For most, normal players this will end very similar to the old scheme but allowing them to choose specifically what skill to include in their "starting" set. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if general advice in future is to ignore training learning skills past level 1 or 2 until you have about a million skillpoints... Gartel is exactly on here. They've taken away 800k sp meaning that new players have to spend a week or two training just to catch up to the same spot a character created a year ago was at the minute it was created. I might have to disagree a bit here on the best idea start for learning skills. Getting all 3s in the learning skills overnight on your very first day will probably be ideal. Given that 4s will now only take about 10-12 hours each will mean they can be trained in the first week easily using the skill queue. Even going 4/3 on the learning skills can probably be done in a week. I'd have to sit down and do the math on to get exact numbers. Again, it's going to come down to player choices: are they patient enough to spend a few days preparing to enjoy EVE for the long term (1-2 yrs+) or are they just looking for the MMO du jour.
Ishikari Gallente Victory Not Vengeance Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2009.02.10 19:16:00 - [32] Edited by: Ishikari on 10/02/2009 19:15:52 Also keep in mind that unless a new player is given a fat pile of isk off the bat, they wont have the 4.5m per advanced learning skill to go buy them.. unless they REALLY like that rookie ship and want to take that over a nice frigate. So the 4/3 thing is out the window at least initially.. although getting the basic learnings to 4 each wont take long at all and is sufficiant for a new player in the first 2/3 months until they get the hang of things and are going to stick around. --- Ishikari Industries
Anneke Goulet CUTLASS CORPORATION	Posted - 2009.02.10 19:40:00 - [33] Originally by: Flinchey does anyone else here.. have a problem with new players now being able to train all rank 1 learning skills to V... and all rank two to IV at HALF PAYOFF TIME RTFM. Seriously as atm you're just trolling away so much it's sad. 1.6mil sp. Rank 1 learning skill to 5= 256k sp. Rank 3 to 4 = 135k Learning to 5 =256k. So, numbers 6x256k + 5x135k =1.536 mil + 0.675 mil ... at 1.6mil the 100% boni drops. What your argument was again? Next time check your facts before you start shouting them on the open, might help a bit if you even remotely knew what you're supposed to talk. Originally by: Napro Yeah the difference being I had my 800K spread out amongst about 60 diff skills A newb or alt can focus those 1.6 on learnings entirely Does not change the fact that the time in hours when you're done the learning and the march 10 newbie is done learning + frig, industry etc skills to match borked achura alt, same time has passed. Or you do you really suspect the newbie is going to stay in his shiny ibis and civilian repper+guns for 2.211 mil sp time? Sure, he could win day in training, but since you're minmaxer who's going to stay with us for long time, you most likely have all learning done to lvl 5 anyways so you're just going to keep getting ahead of him in the years to come. If you dont have done all learnings to 5, dont ***** and moan as you're yourself failed to max-out sp speed.
Bimjo Caldari Domination. Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.10 19:53:00 - [34] As a vet with over 90 mill SP I welcome this move, the more people on higher SP the better for all Regarding Chribba, He is allowed leeway in his posting due to his tireless hours/úúú he allocates to make EVE a better place
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2009.02.10 20:50:00 - [35] yay, less toon spam from cyno alts, research bimbos and whatnot - and i think thats a good thing. i want people in "real" chars. i'm sure half of our alliance consists of these throw-away "exploits" - 'sploiting the fact that you can get a solid copy achura in less than a day. i'm glad everybody can do that on his main and/or prime alt "just as well", if not faster. this makes little difference to new players; after <2months, the break-even will be reached and most of them will have less cr4p than the current templates. you're just *****ing about your instant/"free" throw-away alts
Stalina Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad	Posted - 2009.02.10 23:08:00 - [36] Does this make skilling cynoalts easier or is it limited to one character per account? _________________________________
Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners	Posted - 2009.02.11 00:22:00 - [37] Got to say i love the people in here who have not read the truth of what is happening (admittedly i missed the whole starting at 50k again thing at first). This change is imho a good one it means noobs will now learn what their skills do as the train them again rather than being able to fly a cruiser after a day without having a clue wtf to do with it. To the guy that started at 800k that did not read and was *****ing seriously you have no right to complain this time they are making it so someone that starts now does not really have any disadvantage to someone who starts later except that they have less choice of their skills. When they intially introduced the 800k starting SP all the people that had just reached 800k or were just about to got shafted as they did not get a boost to their skillpoints (which would then have meant everyone would have to have been boosted) so even tho they could have been playing for a month a 1 day old noob had the same sp of them. I think i had 30k SP when i started, had i had the 800k you get today i would have been a worse pilot for far longer than i was, learning what stuff did was important.
Gil Danastre Amarr Madhatters Inc. The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.02.11 04:30:00 - [38] Edited by: Gil Danastre on 11/02/2009 04:34:38 Only thing I don't understand is why is everyone complaining you need to get the basics to 5 and advanced to 4? going 4/3 will save you a lot of time, and you really won't notice those 2 extra attrib's for a long while. I mean looking at EVEmon, I tossed together a ~1 year skillplan, the suggested train for learning skills would save me a total of 7 days train time out of an initial 380 day train. Saving the money and getting some +3/4 implants is far more effective IMO.
Yentruoc Hynd	Posted - 2009.02.11 07:04:00 - [39] Howdy RW I have to agree on this move too. Now, in a Noobs mind, it won't be forced to train those learnings up. I mean seriously, we older folk must of loved torturing ourselves. Actually spending the first month getting up from 30k in just learning skills. Then being told yeah, you should work on getting past those lame mining lasers. Now, the new person will be exposed to many different aspects of eve Faster without the learning skill lag caused by us older folk putting so much emphasis on training the learning skills and nothing but for the first month. Now we can say, hey peon, train that friggy up mwd and scrammers, and come have some fun. Oh and when that learning bonus drops, you better train up your learning skills and implant skills. Dunno, far better then the last change, givin the nubbins so much sp at the start..
deepfreeze007 Caldari Swordfish LLD	Posted - 2009.02.11 08:37:00 - [40] This is for the ppl that actually have more than one account. How many of you really spent as much time training learning skills on your first character as you should have? Weren't you too busy mining/missioning/ratting/pvp'ing/learning how the game worked/etc and working on those skills to make iskies to worry about taking 2+ months off just to get the advanced skills to 5? I still don't have maxed learning skills, but the alts that came after trained for learning and +5 sets straight off the bat. Unless a new player comes into this game with an "experienced" friend, I see them starting out much the same way we all did, just kinda stumbling around and learning how to walk before learning how to run. ---

Tnam Caldari Mortis Angelus The Church.	Posted - 2009.02.11 12:00:00 - [41] This is just a beautiful piece of alt love <3 it CCP. Works for everyone, I don't care much about the people who make isk selling nub alts with learnings because for me they might as well sell GTC/Plex, its the same deal you are paying the account you train and pay the Ç20 transfer fee anyway. But for me, this is nice, I can roll and alt and train it for cyno and cloaking in about 3 days etc. Also to all the whiners, I've known so many people start eve and quit over learning skills, when you start the game you want to feel progress, this means skills progress too else its just very very boring. Gamer's instincitively know that if they don't train learnings they are nerfing themselves in the future for progress, but if they spend ~1 month training learnings then they are stuck in a t1 fitted t1 frig which is not everyone's bag and isn't really offering many options for earning ISK either. ---- Mortis Angelus is recruiting, please see our recruitment thread
Jason Edwards Internet Tough Guy	Posted - 2009.02.11 12:21:00 - [42] Notice how he has like 50,000 sp. Every char starts with > 750,000 and even if ur a moron and podded urself a few times. You will still have basic clone amount of sp. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded.

CCP Fear	Posted - 2009.02.11 12:44:00 - [43] This looks more like a thread about learning skills than anything else! "You can train learning skills quicker". I wanted to chime in a little bit. There is a devblog explaining this all coming in (no idea when it will hit, the schedule for the devblogs keeps changing) But a quick summary; We reduce skills that you get from Character creation to 50K or around that. This means that we would essentially be destroying noobies post apocrypha. Thus we need to get them up to par with others. Double speed will allow you to "catch up" to those pre-apocrypha in about 40 days, which is at 1.6 million SP. This is calculated at total SP though so you can go more than 40 days if you don't spend all days training. Learning skils. Yes you can train them but my advice to any noob would be to wait. Yes, you might get some long term bonus after X amount of months. But let's look at it this way; Two noobies start at the same time. One is instructed to train the learning skills right away, the other is not. They both hit the 1.6 million mark around the same time, but let's analyze their SP and skills. The one training the learning skills has; 50K SP towards weapons, mining, ships and so forth. 1.55 million SP towards learning skills The one that trained regular skills; 1.6 millions SP geared towards specilized weapons, industry, S&I, ships etc. Now, which one of these would you like to be? The one that started the learning skills and gains some bonus in his training over a period of unknown time; or the one who can play the game from day one and gets to fly new ships and stuff. This change allows for much better specilization, more choices and basically enhances the sandbox. They are free to do whatever they wish to do with those 1.6 million SP.

EvilSpork Invicta. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2009.02.11 12:51:00 - [44] Originally by: CCP Fear The one training the learning skills has; 50K SP towards weapons, mining, ships and so forth. 1.55 million SP towards learning skills The one that trained regular skills; 1.6 millions SP geared towards specilized weapons, industry, S&I, ships etc. Now, which one of these would you like to be? The one that started the learning skills and gains some bonus in his training over a period of unknown time; or the one who can play the game from day one and gets to fly new ships and stuff. i would rather be the one with a boatload of skills that i had no idea i needed or even existed and already having the basic ability to fly a frig or cruiser within a few days. the starting skills are a huge boost to the starting player. they get one or two skills at lvl 5 that they would NEVER have at that early of a stage otherwise, etc. starting with 800k sp gives the new player a basis to work from. 50k sp puts them completely in the dark and makes the already insane learning curve even harder. this also screws existing players wanting to make a fast trade alt or pos gunner or, or, or, or... this does not affect me in the least but i do not like the change. (the low sp change that is.) fast training would be nice for trial accounts or something.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.11 12:54:00 - [45] Edited by: MotherMoon on 11/02/2009 12:55:58 well it's more of like... a good chunk of the players, not all mind you but some. And a developer was quoting saying learning skills was the biggest mistake eve ever made on eve tv when asked what was the one thing he would change. but honestly, it's mostly me I'm really passionate about finding some new way to give out skill points and abolishing advanced learning skills :( thanks for thr reply, I've ben thinking about too and your right about one thing, it's better to train lots of things as far as what is fun in eve. But what happens when players down the road find out they could of trained those skills in 6 days instead of 14-15? It's just... advanced skills.... nvm I'm ranting Quote: they get one or two skills at lvl 5 that they would NEVER have at that early of a stage otherwise, etc. starting with 800k sp gives the new player a basis to work from. 50k sp puts them completely in the dark and makes the already insane learning curve even harder. you haven't tried out the new tutorial have you it's very clean on what skills to train. and besides, training your skills to level 5 is pointless when you start off, so I guess that's a good thing.
EvilSpork Invicta. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2009.02.11 13:02:00 - [46] Edited by: EvilSpork on 11/02/2009 13:05:30 Originally by: MotherMoon Quote: they get one or two skills at lvl 5 that they would NEVER have at that early of a stage otherwise, etc. starting with 800k sp gives the new player a basis to work from. 50k sp puts them completely in the dark and makes the already insane learning curve even harder. you haven't tried out the new tutorial have you it's very clean on what skills to train. and besides, training your skills to level 5 is pointless when you start off, so I guess that's a good thing. i haven't because i cant log on to eve on sisi or tq on either of my computer due to bugs i disagree about starting with a lvl 5. if i want to mine and i start with lvl 4 mining + a few other related skills, i can jump right into it and be effective. same with frigate 4, and gunnery 5 or some such. that level 5 skill will be a shining point in their character sheet for likely a year before they start getting similar skills to lvl 5. at the very least.. thing of the alts!!! edit: replying to your edit: starting with science 4 can certainly put you well on your way to a goal. http://www.eve-guides.com/chargen/chargen.php look at the suggestions for creating character types. several of those gain a LOT from the initial 800k sp and skills.
Azzatu	Posted - 2009.02.11 13:09:00 - [47] a simple solution would be to abolish learning skills, give everyone the stats from them, and let people redistribute the SP somehow, although that would need some precious coding time...
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.11 13:22:00 - [48] no wait think about it. With the new training time, instead of getting that level 5 skill, you have the same sp BUT you now have 2 more skills at level 4. so instead of a 5% increase in something, you have 2 20% bonuses. at the same sp count. Also, no that skill wasn't helpful, I would of rather had double sp training for my alts.
EvilSpork Invicta. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2009.02.11 18:35:00 - [49] Originally by: MotherMoon no wait think about it. With the new training time, instead of getting that level 5 skill, you have the same sp BUT you now have 2 more skills at level 4. so instead of a 5% increase in something, you have 2 20% bonuses. at the same sp count. Also, no that skill wasn't helpful, I would of rather had double sp training for my alts. you're probably right, but im going to argue my point anyway i just like the idea of training for like a week and having all the needed stuff to fly something.. or even train 15 minutes and be able to hit the belts mining.
Ydyp Ieva Caldari Amarrian Retribution	Posted - 2009.02.11 19:33:00 - [50] Well if I had to pick I would go for the full learning character, but then again I got 2 characters already loaded with usefull skills. Wish they had brought this system in a long time ago so I didn't had to keep my alt docked in station for several months to finish learning. Heck this thing was outdated! So updated.

James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.02.11 19:39:00 - [51] Originally by: CCP Fear This looks more like a thread about learning skills than anything else! "You can train learning skills quicker". I wanted to chime in a little bit. There is a devblog explaining this all coming in (no idea when it will hit, the schedule for the devblogs keeps changing) But a quick summary; We reduce skills that you get from Character creation to 50K or around that. This means that we would essentially be destroying noobies post apocrypha. Thus we need to get them up to par with others. Double speed will allow you to "catch up" to those pre-apocrypha in about 40 days, which is at 1.6 million SP. This is calculated at total SP though so you can go more than 40 days if you don't spend all days training. Learning skils. Yes you can train them but my advice to any noob would be to wait. Yes, you might get some long term bonus after X amount of months. But let's look at it this way; Two noobies start at the same time. One is instructed to train the learning skills right away, the other is not. They both hit the 1.6 million mark around the same time, but let's analyze their SP and skills. The one training the learning skills has; 50K SP towards weapons, mining, ships and so forth. 1.55 million SP towards learning skills The one that trained regular skills; 1.6 millions SP geared towards specilized weapons, industry, S&I, ships etc. Now, which one of these would you like to be? The one that started the learning skills and gains some bonus in his training over a period of unknown time; or the one who can play the game from day one and gets to fly new ships and stuff. This change allows for much better specilization, more choices and basically enhances the sandbox. They are free to do whatever they wish to do with those 1.6 million SP. That sadly is the problem with learning skills - any newbie figures out that SP = good, faster SP = better. The game is much more interesting if you _don't_ train learning skills, but ends up crippling you longer term. That's what's known as a 'lose-lose' situation. -- 249km locking?
SecHaul	Posted - 2009.02.11 19:56:00 - [52] My recommendation is: Start new characters with the reduced 50k. Put the other 800k that currently new characters get, and put it all into Learning skills. That way a new character post March 10th has all the options to try what they want in a sandbox, however they aren't put into a situation where they need to choose between learning or practical, because a huge chunk of learning is already provided. This minimizes the time they need to get started if they wish to min/max SP gain, starts them on-par with current character SP, and gives them all the options of an open sandbox.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.11 20:06:00 - [53] Originally by: SecHaul My recommendation is: Start new characters with the reduced 50k. Put the other 800k that currently new characters get, and put it all into Learning skills. That way a new character post March 10th has all the options to try what they want in a sandbox, however they aren't put into a situation where they need to choose between learning or practical, because a huge chunk of learning is already provided. This minimizes the time they need to get started if they wish to min/max SP gain, starts them on-par with current character SP, and gives them all the options of an open sandbox. this please.
deepfreeze007 Caldari Swordfish LLD	Posted - 2009.02.11 20:38:00 - [54] Originally by: SecHaul My recommendation is: Start new characters with the reduced 50k. Put the other 800k that currently new characters get, and put it all into Learning skills. That way a new character post March 10th has all the options to try what they want in a sandbox, however they aren't put into a situation where they need to choose between learning or practical, because a huge chunk of learning is already provided. This minimizes the time they need to get started if they wish to min/max SP gain, starts them on-par with current character SP, and gives them all the options of an open sandbox. No. They are already being given a tool to help them catch up to "slightly older" players, let them decide where they want to put their SP. ---
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.02.11 21:04:00 - [55] Can we just get rid of learning skills? Give everyone +8 to all of their attributes, drop all learning skills, be done with it. Use the shiny new +100% learning time tool to give players who have any learning skills to 5 the chance to make up the lost SP.
Mica Swanhaven	Posted - 2009.02.11 21:09:00 - [56] Originally by: Arkady Sadik Can we just get rid of learning skills? Give everyone +8 to all of their attributes, drop all learning skills, be done with it. Use the shiny new +100% learning time tool to give players who have any learning skills to 5 the chance to make up the lost SP. agreed
WarlockX Amarr Free Trade Corp	Posted - 2009.02.11 21:09:00 - [57] Noobs should be rewarded the learning skills by doing some basic missions. Instead of isk reward give them learning skill levels. ----------------------------------------------- Free Trade Corp - Flash page "Nothing about Eve should be easy. Not even ganking." -Rhohan
Doctor Penguin Amarr Shadow Command Tenth Legion	Posted - 2009.02.11 21:20:00 - [58] Edited by: Doctor Penguin on 11/02/2009 21:21:56 Could somebody explain to me what's wrong with the system as it is now? As a 3 month old newbie I don't like the idea that if I started on M10 I'd have to wait 2 weeks to actually begin playing the game without getting blown up in lvl 1 missions. ________________________________________________
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.11 21:22:00 - [59] Originally by: WarlockX Noobs should be rewarded the learning skills by doing some basic missions. Instead of isk reward give them learning skill levels. Seriously, do it ccp.
Doctor Penguin Amarr Shadow Command Tenth Legion	Posted - 2009.02.11 21:27:00 - [60] I'm actually going to think about this for a second... It WOULD have saved me time when I was training Salvaging/Connections/Learning skills. They're all invaluble for a newbie, so I guess that this does have bonuses. But if you can't actually play the game when you begin, how do you find the will to keep playing? ________________________________________________

Re'taka Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2009.02.11 21:32:00 - [61] Originally by: Doctor Penguin I'm actually going to think about this for a second... It WOULD have saved me time when I was training Salvaging/Connections/Learning skills. They're all invaluble for a newbie, so I guess that this does have bonuses. But if you can't actually play the game when you begin, how do you find the will to keep playing? Um, I started with 30k sp, and I kept playing, and the players before me started with 5k sp or so Im told. so whats the issue, it didn't end the game then and wont end it now.
Kell Braugh Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.02.11 22:12:00 - [62] Originally by: Shenko Minara Originally by: Chribba Why not give them the 13.37M SP and get over it already? You are one of the worst posters anywhere on the internet. 13.37? What is this, 1998? Yeah... too bad he is also one of the most respected people in EVE, and um, you are not. - In essence, any combat related activity involving damage has been 'speed nerfed' to just take 6 times longer with a predetermined outcome coined balance by CCP.
Aerendil V	Posted - 2009.02.12 14:28:00 - [63] Originally by: CCP Fear ... Now, which one of these would you like to be? The one that started the learning skills and gains some bonus in his training over a period of unknown time; or the one who can play the game from day one and gets to fly new ships and stuff. This change allows for much better specilization, more choices and basically enhances the sandbox. They are free to do whatever they wish to do with those 1.6 million SP. I started in january 2009 and I¦d rather take 800k SP from start then 1.6M at double time, even with more benefits in the long run. Proposal: Only remove some V skills from current starting selections, apart from that leave them as they are (eg for caldari special forces missile bombardment V) and give 2xdouble exp for the taken skillspoints, so new characters start with around 400k and get 800k at double time. My point is, with 800k starting SP you can play right from the start and get the first big increase (eg frigate->cruiser) within a day, which makes it more friendly to newcomers than starting at 50k.
maranne marachian	Posted - 2009.02.12 16:19:00 - [64] heres one using the new min maxing respec attributes ability its theoretically possible to get 4/4 learning skills in about 2 weeks you can then skill focus on the 15/9 stats skills for 6 months (though from the way its worded right now it reads like new chars can respec as they want with no 6 month limit and thats just for "old" chars) so you could theoretically have something like 21mil SP in your first year...

CCP Fear	Posted - 2009.02.12 16:53:00 - [65] Originally by: Aerendil V Originally by: CCP Fear ... Now, which one of these would you like to be? The one that started the learning skills and gains some bonus in his training over a period of unknown time; or the one who can play the game from day one and gets to fly new ships and stuff. This change allows for much better specilization, more choices and basically enhances the sandbox. They are free to do whatever they wish to do with those 1.6 million SP. I started in january 2009 and I¦d rather take 800k SP from start then 1.6M at double time, even with more benefits in the long run. Proposal: Only remove some V skills from current starting selections, apart from that leave them as they are (eg for caldari special forces missile bombardment V) and give 2xdouble exp for the taken skillspoints, so new characters start with around 400k and get 800k at double time. My point is, with 800k starting SP you can play right from the start and get the first big increase (eg frigate->cruiser) within a day, which makes it more friendly to newcomers than starting at 50k. Just a thought; why is it good to skip a ship class in a day? Are you saying Frigates are bad?

achoura	Posted - 2009.02.12 17:02:00 - [66] Learning skills are a wart of the back end of eve. Now you only have to spend 4 weeks not playing the game instead of 7, player retention? *The EVE servers and their patches*
Dr Resheph Amarr YOU ARE NOW READING THIS LOUDLY	Posted - 2009.02.12 17:03:00 - [67] Frigate + Newbie + lvl 2 mission = dead newbie Newbies need a destroyer with their crummy skills, but even that requires proper fit. Cruisers usually have the buffer to let them survive, and lvl 2 salvage is when the money starts rolling in. No comment on whatever the rest of this thread about, but as someone who teaches newbs how to get quickly off the ground and make money, Frigates are only useful for learning pvp with.
maranne marachian	Posted - 2009.02.12 17:06:00 - [68] Originally by: CCP Fear Just a thought; why is it good to skip a ship class in a day? Are you saying Frigates are bad? not so much bad just not as good. Destroyer/cruiser in a day means you dont have to worry about mission damage till level 3ish missions (less podding/paying for ships is good for beginers), you have more cargo space, more drone space probably more high spots so more weapons faster missioning/more mining lasers more space more efficient mining. Either way more ISK and you FEEL bigger cause your now a gnat on a elephants ass not a tick on a gnat on an.. you get the idea.;)
AshtarDJ Filthy Scum Scum Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.12 17:14:00 - [69] I love this 100% skill speed bonus! It will mean that I will see a lot more 5 day old chars ratting in lowsec in a Raven fitted with civilian gatling railguns. It takes about a year online to realize that more SP doesn't mean you know how to play the game....

CCP Fear	Posted - 2009.02.12 17:14:00 - [70] Originally by: maranne marachian Originally by: CCP Fear Just a thought; why is it good to skip a ship class in a day? Are you saying Frigates are bad? not so much bad just not as good. Destroyer/cruiser in a day means you dont have to worry about mission damage till level 3ish missions (less podding/paying for ships is good for beginers), you have more cargo space, more drone space probably more high spots so more weapons faster missioning/more mining lasers more space more efficient mining. Either way more ISK and you FEEL bigger cause your now a gnat on a elephants ass not a tick on a gnat on an.. you get the idea.;) I can certainly agree with that destroyers and cruisers are bigger badder and so forth. But that wasn't my point. The previous post was about why is it good that a player has a near instant access to a ship, which he perhaps can't fit properly, can't use properly and is extremely expensive and the cost of losing one make the player feel even worse about losing such a thing. And just to clarify about the skills in general. A player coming out of character creation could potentially be in a cruiser pretty quickly. He doesn't have Frigate V, but the step to a destroyer or a cruiser isn't that big. The reason (again) for removing the skills is that there were plenty of skills in the that didn't make sense. Players should come out there with some basic things so they can get a frigate, start shooting stuff and so forth. I would much rather see them flying a frigate for a while, have a blast, die a few times in a mission. I suppose it's the old "Adapt or die" principle. I think they would be much inclined in staying if they lost a 20K frigate, rather than an expensive Moa that they fit small lasers to. Yeah, there are better ships than frigates. But why not expose them to the cheap stuff, they learn to fly them, and then move in a more organic fashion to the bigger stuff. Or should they not all start with Cruiser 5 and just get it done with? nahh...


maranne marachian	Posted - 2009.02.12 17:32:00 - [71] Edited by: maranne marachian on 12/02/2009 17:34:18 never bothered with the moa myself went into a caracal half the cost and less training time needed and if i go soldier route i can even fit decent launchers on it for the level 1-2 missions instantly (once cruisers show up its a matter of hours to train missiles enough to kill them and even lights can do it if theres not many of them). My chances of losing it in level 1's is as close to 0 as to make no odds but my speed at running level 1's is greatly increased. Insurance happily removes any remorse i might feel because hey i made a profit on my ship. As a new player i'd spend even less because i'd fit the cheapest launchers i can and it says that i should use kinetics on the description so i buy pretty cheap missiles too. so over all my total loss is maybe 40k which i already made when i killed a few pirates for bounties so maybe i just break even this mission but i'm more likely to make a profit.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.12 17:57:00 - [72] Originally by: CCP Fear Originally by: maranne marachian Originally by: CCP Fear Just a thought; why is it good to skip a ship class in a day? Are you saying Frigates are bad? not so much bad just not as good. Destroyer/cruiser in a day means you dont have to worry about mission damage till level 3ish missions (less podding/paying for ships is good for beginers), you have more cargo space, more drone space probably more high spots so more weapons faster missioning/more mining lasers more space more efficient mining. Either way more ISK and you FEEL bigger cause your now a gnat on a elephants ass not a tick on a gnat on an.. you get the idea.;) I can certainly agree with that destroyers and cruisers are bigger badder and so forth. But that wasn't my point. The previous post was about why is it good that a player has a near instant access to a ship, which he perhaps can't fit properly, can't use properly and is extremely expensive and the cost of losing one make the player feel even worse about losing such a thing. And just to clarify about the skills in general. A player coming out of character creation could potentially be in a cruiser pretty quickly. He doesn't have Frigate V, but the step to a destroyer or a cruiser isn't that big. The reason (again) for removing the skills is that there were plenty of skills in the that didn't make sense. Players should come out there with some basic things so they can get a frigate, start shooting stuff and so forth. I would much rather see them flying a frigate for a while, have a blast, die a few times in a mission. I suppose it's the old "Adapt or die" principle. I think they would be much inclined in staying if they lost a 20K frigate, rather than an expensive Moa that they fit small lasers to. Yeah, there are better ships than frigates. But why not expose them to the cheap stuff, they learn to fly them, and then move in a more organic fashion to the bigger stuff. Or should they not all start with Cruiser 5 and just get it done with? nahh... well put, I'm warming up to the idea after training, I don't really nocitce the different so thats good. :) now fix the skill que so I can train skills!
deepfreeze007 Caldari Swordfish LLD	Posted - 2009.02.12 18:03:00 - [73] Originally by: achoura Learning skills are a wart of the back end of eve. Now you only have to spend 4 weeks not playing the game instead of 7, player retention? Why do you all want to get rid of learning skills? Why not just give everyone all the same skills and SP and let them have at it, hrmm? Stop whining cuz YOU didn't spend time training YOUR learning skills up when you were young and now new characters are going to have the opportunity to get 2x SP up to 1.6M, some of which might use to train learning skills. Skills are there for a reason, to get better at something. Obviously someone who spends their time training in a certain area should be better in that area. Same applies to learning skills. If they want to spend time training learning skills up, they should be better at learning other skills. ---
The Snowman Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.02.12 18:38:00 - [74] Personally I started before the character generation was boosted to 800k. I started in a frigate, Navitas (before it was a mining ship) that blew up pretty quickly then went to tristan, which I used for a long while doing missions (which never blew up and I still have). I skipped Destroyer and went straight to Cruiser. I have to say that by the time I could DO level 2 agents I was just about getting into a cruiser anyway. My worry about this new way is not about people jumping straight into a cruiser (which I agree, is not a good idea for a noob) but that it would make character generation a bit more 'cookie cutter'. The side-effect of being able to specialise and focus your character much more is that people end up copying a certain path, given that they also have two free attribute point reasignments this all strikes me as a recipe for creating a generation of clones!
maranne marachian	Posted - 2009.02.12 18:48:00 - [75] Originally by: The Snowman The side-effect of being able to specialise and focus your character much more is that people end up copying a certain path, given that they also have two free attribute point reasignments this all strikes me as a recipe for creating a generation of clones! This! Personally if i were a new player trialing the game on march 10th i'd take my 2/3 week trial and if i liked the game start a whole NEW trial purely training the learning skills first with stats min/maxed or even do this at the same time as trialing on the other account. I can see this becoming quite common advice for new players
deepfreeze007 Caldari Swordfish LLD	Posted - 2009.02.12 19:01:00 - [76] Originally by: The Snowman Personally I started before the character generation was boosted to 800k. I started in a frigate, Navitas (before it was a mining ship) that blew up pretty quickly then went to tristan, which I used for a long while doing missions (which never blew up and I still have). I skipped Destroyer and went straight to Cruiser. I have to say that by the time I could DO level 2 agents I was just about getting into a cruiser anyway. My worry about this new way is not about people jumping straight into a cruiser (which I agree, is not a good idea for a noob) but that it would make character generation a bit more 'cookie cutter'. The side-effect of being able to specialise and focus your character much more is that people end up copying a certain path, given that they also have two free attribute point reasignments this all strikes me as a recipe for creating a generation of clones! Valid points. But for that to happen, all the ppl behind the keyboard would all have to pretty much be the same too. It won't be anymore "cookie-cutter" than it is now, what with cyno/jammer/trade/mining/research alts and all. People follow (copy) certain paths because they are proven to be successful. ---
Fallorn GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.02.12 20:36:00 - [77] Honestly couldn't you give them an option of picking some of the skills themselves up to say 800k sp and have double training up to 1.6m sp and they can choose if they want to and also just give them a pretty nice selection of basic skill books trained at 1sp so they don't have to buy as many books? People talking about getting rid of the learning skills and giving people the +10 to the stats and 2x training for the time spent in learning skills also make a valid point that they kill fun and it would make the game more fun for newbies and old players alike and if you encompassed the actual learning skill in the bonus training time it would get rid of all the fun decimals that your server has to deal with and all stats would be integers. Then people can just use implants for making their stats bigger. Newbies have no learning skills to worry about training, and can just train skills they want. so Give newbies learning skills already trained, Get rid of learning skills Make it so new people can have fun. Windjammer
Vitrael Reaper Industries Eternal Rapture	Posted - 2009.02.12 22:51:00 - [78] Originally by: CCP Fear This looks more like a thread about learning skills than anything else! "You can train learning skills quicker". I wanted to chime in a little bit. There is a devblog explaining this all coming in (no idea when it will hit, the schedule for the devblogs keeps changing) But a quick summary; We reduce skills that you get from Character creation to 50K or around that. This means that we would essentially be destroying noobies post apocrypha. Thus we need to get them up to par with others. Double speed will allow you to "catch up" to those pre-apocrypha in about 40 days, which is at 1.6 million SP. This is calculated at total SP though so you can go more than 40 days if you don't spend all days training. Learning skils. Yes you can train them but my advice to any noob would be to wait. Yes, you might get some long term bonus after X amount of months. But let's look at it this way; Two noobies start at the same time. One is instructed to train the learning skills right away, the other is not. They both hit the 1.6 million mark around the same time, but let's analyze their SP and skills. The one training the learning skills has; 50K SP towards weapons, mining, ships and so forth. 1.55 million SP towards learning skills The one that trained regular skills; 1.6 millions SP geared towards specilized weapons, industry, S&I, ships etc. Now, which one of these would you like to be? The one that started the learning skills and gains some bonus in his training over a period of unknown time; or the one who can play the game from day one and gets to fly new ships and stuff. This change allows for much better specilization, more choices and basically enhances the sandbox. They are free to do whatever they wish to do with those 1.6 million SP. I'm sorry but this is a disastrous idea. It was only about 2 years ago that the starting SP amount was changed from 50,000 to 800,000 because a starter char with only 50k skillpoints is virtually useless in every way. One of the greatest benefits of those extra skillpoints is that a good chunk go into learning skills, which, as mentioned, are extremely boring to train as a nooby, since you get no new shinies while you're doing it. Why the sudden need to nerf new players? Even if you do increase their skill training rate, you're starting the off on a lower par than ever before. What is the rationalization for this? Are 800k SP players overpowered? For one thing I am glad I'm a 40,000,000sp character because you're not nerfing me. But if I were a new player (again) and I had to train up from the point where I wasn't able to fly a Rifter (again) I would probably not make it past the first month of play. I nearly didn't the first time, and I never logged in. So seriously, what is the justification for nerfing new players? -----
maranne marachian	Posted - 2009.02.13 01:37:00 - [79] Originally by: Vitrael Edited by: Vitrael on 12/02/2009 22:58:50 Quote: I can certainly agree with that destroyers and cruisers are bigger badder and so forth. But that wasn't my point. The previous post was about why is it good that a player has a near instant access to a ship, which he perhaps can't fit properly, can't use properly and is extremely expensive and the cost of losing one make the player feel even worse about losing such a thing. So basically the argument is you shouldn't be giving power tools to toddlers; give them the Erector Set instead? notice alot of whats being said in that section makes no sense either? the cost is covered by insurance since the tutorial tells you to insure all your ships as a matter of course most will insure them.. if they dont have the skills to fit them properly surely this means theres some miss spent points in char creation? for level 1-2 even basic smalls work fine and you dont really need much tank (though a tutorial on how to spec for your races tank that appears automatically would be a nice addition hinthint according to CCP's maths it will take new players 20 days to be on equal footing to a current starter char thats a whole EXTENDED trial period or one month of their shiny boxes time gone near enough. so to be skilled enough to do what a new char could do on day one now i have to sit around for a month facing death and wondering why someone created the day before is laughing at me and so far ahead... right now a person starting the trial on the 9th is gonna be laughing all the way to the bank by the end of their trial period they'll be at about the same point as someone who started today..
Tuttomenui II Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.02.14 06:06:00 - [80] Originally by: CCP Fear Originally by: Aerendil V Originally by: CCP Fear ... Now, which one of these would you like to be? The one that started the learning skills and gains some bonus in his training over a period of unknown time; or the one who can play the game from day one and gets to fly new ships and stuff. This change allows for much better specilization, more choices and basically enhances the sandbox. They are free to do whatever they wish to do with those 1.6 million SP. I started in january 2009 and I¦d rather take 800k SP from start then 1.6M at double time, even with more benefits in the long run. Proposal: Only remove some V skills from current starting selections, apart from that leave them as they are (eg for caldari special forces missile bombardment V) and give 2xdouble exp for the taken skillspoints, so new characters start with around 400k and get 800k at double time. My point is, with 800k starting SP you can play right from the start and get the first big increase (eg frigate->cruiser) within a day, which makes it more friendly to newcomers than starting at 50k. Just a thought; why is it good to skip a ship class in a day? Are you saying Frigates are bad? I agree with CCP Fear here, I find that frigates that are properly fit can actually do very well in lvl 2 missions. I put of destroyers a while and just flew a triston around when i was a newb. Also its nice to see my thread evolve into such a nice constructive discussion. ^^ My Signiture is an actual Signiture WOW!!!^^

voogru Gallente Massive Damage United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2009.02.14 06:58:00 - [81] It's easy to tell why CCP is doing this. EVE has 4 races. 60% are Caldari? What percent are Caldari Achura? And why? Because Caldari Achura have the BEST possible attributes you can get. You're either Caldari Achura, or you're a stupid noob. So, make all races have same base attributes, and suddenly maybe you start seeing something other than Caldari Achura players as new characters. Also solves the problem with people making instantly capable throwaway alts to do dirty things with, OMG, now you actually have to train throw away alts! The HORROR. Hate Farmers? Click Here
Kopkiller	Posted - 2009.02.14 08:27:00 - [82] Edited by: Kopkiller on 14/02/2009 08:27:34 The most funny thingy is to see how much people fail at math here. This is a freaking nerf, not a buff, and im glad having created a 800K char, plus as soon as you logg off you basically loose skillpoints in relation to a 8OOK char.
Corin Nebulon Naqam Exalted.	Posted - 2009.02.14 10:05:00 - [83] Hmm, one of the problems I see for new players, is not only that the older ones have much more sp and that it is impossible to "catch up" on all fields, but also that EVE changed a lot since its first days. When I started playing eve a couple of years ago, Tech1 was still standard. Named Modules were more expensive and T2 was extremely overpriced. A Vaga was at 200mil, a heavy missile launcher T2 at 7 - 14+ mil. Now since invention was released, T2 became more or less standard. You usually fit named modules because of fitting requirements. T1 is only used in suicide ships. A new player these days, doesn't only need to train the modules and support skills, he also must train the skills needed to fit / fly T2 or he will not be able to compete and therefore would likely loose the fun in the game itself. But with access to T2 comes the need for better fitting skills as well. While you can easily fit a "well-rounded" T1 setup (meaning a setup that makes sense but still is crap compared to a T2) with low fitting skills, you will need them maxed as soon as you are planing to fit T2. Now I do not mean to give people a skill set that they can fly full T2 at char creation. But I also realize that what makes people continue playing eve, is the nice new ship they could be in soon. The new modules they would be able to fit, in short the progress of their character. Its exactly in these early months were you have to train the most annoying skills in eve. Learning skills, fitting skills etc. And imho this is one of the biggest problems for new players. They have to restrain themselves, keep their curiosity for new stuff down, in order to train learning skills. Skills that basically mean for over a month you will not see anything new. Now this was extremely annoying when I started playing eve. Now after this you can start training for another T1 ship. Another piece of crap. At least compared to the shiny, now standard, T2 ships and modules. Why doesn't ccp give all players the basic learning skills at V and the advanced at 1 and leaves it at this? Having to train learning skills for a month is one of the most annoying things in eve. Removing the need for learning skills would increase the new player experience far more than this stupid "double training speed". Especially because "double training speed" without learning skills means "less than normal training speed" compared to a char with learning skills and implants. My summary for this : Double training time is as rubbish, or even more rubbish than the skill sets we have now. Now people are at least able to use a nice set of modules before they start training their learning skills. Later they will be able to buy eve in a store, and spend a month waiting for the most annoying skills to finish, while running level one missions from time to time. Afterwards they can start playing eve. Cannot imagine less people getting frustrated and leaving eve, than before. And a small side note: Those people who are always crying about new players getting to much from ccp : So far you enjoyed the game. At least you kept playing. And having players that aren't gimped by their skill set, but are actually capable of the same stuff as you are, is much more enjoyable. So stop crying and polish your skills. That of you as a player and your characters ones.
Surana Rens	Posted - 2009.02.19 14:42:00 - [84] Is there an argument against allowing people to pick a certain amount of skills, i.e. freely assign skills in the character creation window? maybe up to the 800k?
Aveng3X Warped Mining Strip Mining Club	Posted - 2009.02.19 16:18:00 - [85] I welcome this idea. Starting with less SP gives the player a lot of time to realise what his skills are for. For example, I started the game in January 2008 on this character with Missile Bombardment 5. I didn't come to appreciate this skill until I realised I had it, and read the description. I'm now one year old with about 18 million skillpoints in the drawer, and I didn't really focus my training time entirely on learning. In fact, I only trained Learning V about 5 months through the game, at which point I was already flying T2 frigates. People forget about the certificates system and the new fitting stats features, which all will tie in with this new system really nicely too. I also think players flying about in Vexors with Ogre Is will stop, which is a good thing. Even though it's still doable, newbies should realise that upgrading to a battlecruiser within 2 days of playing is a painfully silly thing to do without support skills. (Where you'd get the money from these days I don't know...) Still, I have a few friends I'm going to plan on introducing to eve soon so it shall impact them and I'll be sure to ask how it's going. Overall, good move CCP. __________________________ Any views expressed are not necessarily the views of my corporation or alliance. YARR!
Aniel Zaar Gallente Light of Orion	Posted - 2009.02.20 11:29:00 - [86] Originally by: CCP Fear Double speed will allow you to "catch up" to those pre-apocrypha in about 40 days, which is at 1.6 million SP. This is calculated at total SP though so you can go more than 40 days if you don't spend all days training. .... 1.6 millions SP geared towards specilized weapons, industry, S&I, ships etc. Now, which one of these would you like to be? The trial period is 14 days. A character will have 560k SP by the END of the trial. How much of EVE do you think he will be able to try before actually having to pay? CCP wants more monei. -^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^ By the way, I am an Ishtar and T2 sentries fan. Fight to make the sentry damage rig work for all drones.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.20 12:12:00 - [87] Originally by: Kopkiller Edited by: Kopkiller on 14/02/2009 08:27:34 The most funny thingy is to see how much people fail at math here. This is a freaking nerf, not a buff, and im glad having created a 800K char, plus as soon as you logg off you basically loose skillpoints in relation to a 8OOK char. what does being logged on have to do with anything?
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.02.20 12:14:00 - [88] Originally by: Aniel Zaar Originally by: CCP Fear Double speed will allow you to "catch up" to those pre-apocrypha in about 40 days, which is at 1.6 million SP. This is calculated at total SP though so you can go more than 40 days if you don't spend all days training. .... 1.6 millions SP geared towards specilized weapons, industry, S&I, ships etc. Now, which one of these would you like to be? The trial period is 14 days. A character will have 560k SP by the END of the trial. How much of EVE do you think he will be able to try before actually having to pay? CCP wants more monei. a lot considers most of those sp were 2 level 5 skills (500,000 sp to be exact) those 500,000 so can now be 10 level4 skills. a 14 day 560,000 sp player would beat a current 800,000 sp new player, easily.
Aniel Zaar Gallente Light of Orion	Posted - 2009.02.21 01:52:00 - [89] Originally by: MotherMoon a 14 day 560,000 sp player would beat a current 800,000 sp new player, easily. Beat? Why are you assuming it's a PvP situation? Also, you are comparing a completely new player to one with 14 days experience (which technically is infinitely more experience). As a new player now, you can hop into a cruiser within a few days and be successful at using it. You can actually do things like running missions/mining, get a sense of what EVE is like. That will not be the case if the newbie has to train for all his trial period to only start seeing what EVE is like. -^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^-^ By the way, I am an Ishtar and T2 sentries fan. Fight to make the sentry damage rig work for all drones.
Meha Mott Minmatar Carebear Research and Produktion Agency	Posted - 2009.02.21 02:24:00 - [90] For me the translation of this move is: How can i hinder the old player to create fast and easy alts (Cyno, research, trade for example) and tell them, this is done for the benefit of the newbies. If ccp really wants to give a benefit for new players it is very easy to handle. All learning skills trained to IV problems solved. Most boring skill training in game is done and then they can really start to specialize in that direction they want. Sorry for my bad english. Sorry for my bad english.

5pinDizzy	Posted - 2009.02.21 02:53:00 - [91] Sounds like it's going to be good times for making suicide alts.
Camdim Caldari The first genesis INTERDICTION	Posted - 2009.02.21 03:30:00 - [92] Edited by: Camdim on 21/02/2009 03:30:51 I guess I will chime in here with some of what I found from my testing pre the recent mirroring. It took 3.5 days to get level 4 in the basic skills and level 3 in the advanced. From there it takes 2.5 days per basic to level 5 and takes 2.5 days to go from level 3 to a level 4 advanced skill. In the learning skills. So the best route for a new player would be go to level 4 in the basics get the advanced to level 3 as soon as you can afford to and train anything in between that helps you get the money to buy the level 4's. As for the tutorials I believe that they should be consoladated down to one tutorial that covers what the current 3 does but holds the newer players hand a bit more. Figure about 25 mission mix of combat, trade, mining and production. Give the player a taste of every side of eve from the start. A new tutorial should also point out the certificates and list them as a guide for character development. ( Even if some folks don't think they are exactly accurate.) I was able to do all 10 missions from all three agents with one character. So combining all of them down into one agent shouldn't be that hard. And the lessons could then be a bit more specific for diffrent things. For example: There are three ways to lock a target. 1. Right click the target and select lock target. 2. Select the target in the overview and hit the bullseye in the target information screen. 3. Hold ctrl and click on the target in the overview. For good examples of things that should be covered in the tutorial would be the various posts about things I wish I had known when I started playing. Or 100 tips to even ect... Many of us that have been playing for years forget and take for granted the things we have learned and forget that at some point each of us was just starting out.
Tuttomenui II Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.02.21 07:43:00 - [93] Originally by: Camdim Edited by: Camdim on 21/02/2009 03:30:51 I guess I will chime in here with some of what I found from my testing pre the recent mirroring. It took 3.5 days to get level 4 in the basic skills and level 3 in the advanced. From there it takes 2.5 days per basic to level 5 and takes 2.5 days to go from level 3 to a level 4 advanced skill. In the learning skills. So the best route for a new player would be go to level 4 in the basics get the advanced to level 3 as soon as you can afford to and train anything in between that helps you get the money to buy the level 4's. As for the tutorials I believe that they should be consoladated down to one tutorial that covers what the current 3 does but holds the newer players hand a bit more. Figure about 25 mission mix of combat, trade, mining and production. Give the player a taste of every side of eve from the start. A new tutorial should also point out the certificates and list them as a guide for character development. ( Even if some folks don't think they are exactly accurate.) I was able to do all 10 missions from all three agents with one character. So combining all of them down into one agent shouldn't be that hard. And the lessons could then be a bit more specific for diffrent things. For example: There are three ways to lock a target. 1. Right click the target and select lock target. 2. Select the target in the overview and hit the bullseye in the target information screen. 3. Hold ctrl and click on the target in the overview. For good examples of things that should be covered in the tutorial would be the various posts about things I wish I had known when I started playing. Or 100 tips to even ect... Many of us that have been playing for years forget and take for granted the things we have learned and forget that at some point each of us was just starting out. I did a alt before the newest miror to, and i was only able to get 10 missions from one agent and it ried another and only got 3 missions from that agent. I think maybe being able to do all 10 from all the tutorial agents might have been a bug. I wish I hadnt closed the carreer choise screen I got that listed the agents, I wasnt able to find it again and I wanted to get a screen shot after the fact. Maybe I will start another alt and try the tutorials again and this time get lots of screen shots.
Camdim Caldari The first genesis INTERDICTION	Posted - 2009.02.21 09:11:00 - [94] Originally by: Tuttomenui II I did a alt before the newest miror to, and i was only able to get 10 missions from one agent and it ried another and only got 3 missions from that agent. I think maybe being able to do all 10 from all the tutorial agents might have been a bug. I wish I hadnt closed the carreer choise screen I got that listed the agents, I wasnt able to find it again and I wanted to get a screen shot after the fact. Maybe I will start another alt and try the tutorials again and this time get lots of screen shots. Well I didn't use the agent selection screen that came up I just talked to the agents themselves. So that might be the bug. But as I said they really should combine them all into one. And give every player a taste of each aspect of eve.
Amida Ta German Mining and Manufacture Corp.	Posted - 2009.02.21 10:21:00 - [95] Originally by: CCP Fear Learning skils. Yes you can train them but my advice to any noob would be to wait. Yes, you might get some long term bonus after X amount of months. But let's look at it this way; Two noobies start at the same time. One is instructed to train the learning skills right away, the other is not. They both hit the 1.6 million mark around the same time, but let's analyze their SP and skills. The one training the learning skills has; 50K SP towards weapons, mining, ships and so forth. 1.55 million SP towards learning skills The one that trained regular skills; 1.6 millions SP geared towards specilized weapons, industry, S&I, ships etc. Now, which one of these would you like to be? The one that started the learning skills and gains some bonus in his training over a period of unknown time; or the one who can play the game from day one and gets to fly new ships and stuff. Sorry, but this view seems incredibly naive. If a new player starts he will likely ask in local, ask in his start corporation or even check out the forums. AND EVERYBODY there will tell him: TRAIN LEARNING first. At LEAST train the basic learnings to level 4. To the new player this is like: Hey, you like the game. No problem. Just stop now and come back in a week to start. Which is rediculous and stupid from the point of the new player. And even IF it (from a "having fun" perspective) would make lots of sense to not learn them first nobody will do so because everybody will tell them otherwise and everybody will say how incredibly stupid they are if they don't get learings first. And the fix would be so incredibly simple: Give them Basic Learing IV from the start (in addition to the boost to 1,6 Mio). This is not going to hurt anybody. It's not giving them an enormous amount of skillpoints. It's not of much use for secondary specialized trainig. It still allows them fully to "progress" and see themselves advancing. It works for any race. And everybody else got them anyways. There's not a single argument against it. P.S. The basic lower levels pay off FAR faster than in several months. P.P.S. This might lead to them trying to get to advanced learing fast (If they can get the ISKs). A way to prevent this would be to raise the requirement for the Advanced learnings to Level V


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