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Xianthar STK Scientific The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.02.14 20:32:00 - [61] Originally by: Miss Moonwych Basicly you were/are assuming that the target lies exactly in the A,B,C plane. Which most of the time wont be the case. M.M. its also theoretically possible to locate a point with just 2 know distances but the location of the 2 probes and the unknown location would have to be co-linear, the odds of which are really, really bad, still i wonder if CCP implemented it. cheers
Hereon Herinnger Gallente Nolra Corp	Posted - 2009.02.14 20:35:00 - [62] Originally by: Xianthar Originally by: Miss Moonwych Basicly you were/are assuming that the target lies exactly in the A,B,C plane. Which most of the time wont be the case. M.M. its also theoretically possible to locate a point with just 2 know distances but the location of the 2 probes and the unknown location would have to be co-linear, the odds of which are really, really bad, still i wonder if CCP implemented it. cheers We know they implemented the tiny possibility of a hit with 3 probes so I would assume they did this too.
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.14 21:45:00 - [63] Edited by: Hoshi on 14/02/2009 21:51:00 Originally by: Xianthar its also theoretically possible to locate a point with just 2 know distances but the location of the 2 probes and the unknown location would have to be co-linear, the odds of which are really, really bad, still i wonder if CCP implemented it. cheers Shouldn't be too hard to test, eject a ship, go back to the ship with a probe ships, launch 2 probes, move them with the arrows in straight opposite directions, scan. Edit: just tested, does not give a warpable result. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Sophia Truthspeaker THE INTERNET. Goodfellas.	Posted - 2009.02.14 22:24:00 - [64] Originally by: Hugh Ruka triangulation on earth works only on land. since the height is given by the height of the surface, you only need to work 2 dimensions (a plane bent to form a sphere basicaly). however it would not work underwater or in the air, as it would give an infinitely long line of possible locations :-) You missed the fun part... it doesn't matter where the three points are, they ALWAYS are on a plane. That the plane isn't necessarily what we call horizontal doesn't matter. Draw a triangle on a piece of paper and start waving the paper around. No matter how oyu hold the piece of paper, you will always be able to get from two points to the third. The eve system works diffrently, it measure distances, instead of directions. And even on piece of paper and a plane you will get two possible points, if you check distances between points. _________ Proposed Mining and Attribute Changes The truth is out there
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2009.02.14 22:40:00 - [65] Originally by: Sophia Truthspeaker Originally by: Hugh Ruka triangulation on earth works only on land. since the height is given by the height of the surface, you only need to work 2 dimensions (a plane bent to form a sphere basicaly). however it would not work underwater or in the air, as it would give an infinitely long line of possible locations :-) You missed the fun part... it doesn't matter where the three points are, they ALWAYS are on a plane. That the plane isn't necessarily what we call horizontal doesn't matter. Draw a triangle on a piece of paper and start waving the paper around. No matter how oyu hold the piece of paper, you will always be able to get from two points to the third. The eve system works diffrently, it measure distances, instead of directions. And even on piece of paper and a plane you will get two possible points, if you check distances between points. but that's not triangulation ... anyway ... I keep arguing in circles ... point is, EVE new mechanic does not use triangulation ... --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2009.02.14 22:43:00 - [66] Originally by: Hoshi Edited by: Hoshi on 14/02/2009 21:51:00 Originally by: Xianthar its also theoretically possible to locate a point with just 2 know distances but the location of the 2 probes and the unknown location would have to be co-linear, the odds of which are really, really bad, still i wonder if CCP implemented it. cheers Shouldn't be too hard to test, eject a ship, go back to the ship with a probe ships, launch 2 probes, move them with the arrows in straight opposite directions, scan. Edit: just tested, does not give a warpable result. looking forward to your Apocrypha scanning guide :-) --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Chris Liath Gallente The Vorlon Empire Skunk-Works	Posted - 2009.02.14 22:50:00 - [67] Edited by: Chris Liath on 14/02/2009 22:53:30 Since it's supposedly measuring distance it should be called trilateration anyways. And three probes, or 2 + 1 ship would be enough. "Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.
Sophia Truthspeaker THE INTERNET. Goodfellas.	Posted - 2009.02.14 22:54:00 - [68] Originally by: Hugh Ruka looking forward to your Apocrypha scanning guide :-) Agreed! Thanks Hoshi, for the first scanning guide. Wouldn't try it on sisi without you helping me understand the privious incarnations. _________ Proposed Mining and Attribute Changes The truth is out there
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.14 23:03:00 - [69] Originally by: Chris Liath Edited by: Chris Liath on 14/02/2009 22:53:30 Since it's supposedly measuring distance it should be called trilateration anyways. And three probes, or 2 + 1 ship would be enough. 3 probes or 2+1 ship while being enough in a 2d system would give 2 points in a 3d system, one "above" and one "below" the plane crated by the probes. Because both those points are measured distance from all probes. And incidentally this is how it works in game as well, with 3 probes you get 2 points. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Captator Empire Assault Corp	Posted - 2009.02.15 01:35:00 - [70] ITT stuff was learned Made interesting reading for me, would I be right in saying: 1) Given a bearing in 3d space and a direction you would only need one probe 2) Given a bearing in 3d space you would only need 2 probes (as the 2 probes and the unknown point would then co-exist on a plane) 3) Given only distances in 3d space you require 4 probes to get 1 defined result, except if: a) the probes are outside each others spheres of operation, where you require 3 (if otherwise you would get 2 points in this situation). b) There is also a very small chance of using distance and 2 probes to get a hit, but it wasn't explained how that worked.
Jack Jombardo Amarr Alternative Realities	Posted - 2009.02.15 02:34:00 - [71] Only 3 probes needed would be nice. Had a scan with 7 (!) probes out last night and couldn't get a result better as 81% after nearly full probe-time :(.
Car A'Carn	Posted - 2009.02.15 05:02:00 - [72] The problem most people are having in understanding this is that the conventional understanding of triangulation is that you get a direction from two sources and then you follow those two directions to the intersection. The eve system works on distance not direction, and so you need at least 3 sources to get any coherent results.
Goonda Minmatar DOMINATIO	Posted - 2009.02.15 06:51:00 - [73] Originally by: Hugh Ruka as was said, you need 3 reference points to calculate position in 2d space. however you are scanning in 3d in EVE. Incorrect. You only need two reference points to locate a point in 3D. The difference between 2D and 3D is that you need more pieces of information from each reference point. In 2D triangulation you need the known location of both of your reference points plus the angle from each of the reference points to the target point. You can then plot lines from your reference points at the measured angles and the intersection of the lines is your target. In 3D the only difference is that you need to know two angles for each reference point. Usually it is the angle to the target point and reference points projected on some known reference plane, followed by the angle in a plane perpendicular to this first reference plane but in the direction of the first measured angle. So, you can still find a point in 3D space using 2 known points of reference, you just need to get one more piece of information from each reference point.
Goonda Minmatar DOMINATIO	Posted - 2009.02.15 07:05:00 - [74] Edited by: Goonda on 15/02/2009 07:14:58 Originally by: Car A'Carn The problem most people are having in understanding this is that the conventional understanding of triangulation is that you get a direction from two sources and then you follow those two directions to the intersection. The eve system works on distance not direction, and so you need at least 3 sources to get any coherent results. Exactly, for 2D. But in 3D you need 4 sources for distance "triangulation". Here is how it works: Place probe 1 -> This creates a sphere with a radius equilivant to the distance to the target. Our target is somewhere on the surface of this sphere. Place probe 2 -> This creates a new sphere with a new radius, the intersection of this new one with the old one is a circle, our target is somewhere on the circumference of this circle. Place probe 3 -> This creates a third sphere, the intersection of this new sphere with the first two is the same as the intersection of this 3rd sphere with the circle from before. We now have two points. Our target is one of these two points. Place probe 4 -> This creates a 4th sphere, the intersection of all four spheres is a single point, our target. EDIT: The technical term for this is Trilateration
Kopkiller	Posted - 2009.02.15 08:16:00 - [75] Edited by: Kopkiller on 15/02/2009 08:21:09 Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: Xianthar Triangulation works on the surface of the earth to find "stuff" because with 3 known distances you get 2 possible locations for the unknown, if the known locations are properly spread out only 1 of those 2 possible points will be on the earths surface, thus you can rule out the other. More known distances just help to account for inaccuracies in the distance measurement method which there is always some due to various issues. For instance the GPS system has to account for the fact that time travels slower on the earths surface than it does in orbit. cheers triangulation on earth works only on land. since the height is given by the height of the surface, you only need to work 2 dimensions (a plane bent to form a sphere basicaly). however it would not work underwater or in the air, as it would give an infinitely long line of possible locations :-) You DO NOT WANT TO UNDERSTAND! First triangulation and trilateration are two different things, so talking about triangulation here is off. BUT if you want to be that insisting take a lesson or something, tape triangulation on google, and UNDERSTAND how it works , WITH ANGLES so we don't **ing care about if its 2D, 3D or 4D it ALWAYS WORK! Number of dimensions does not enter in count, triangulation does not work for land only neither 2D , UNDERSTAND IT OR SHUT UP. Edit: Did you actually know a GPS knows your altitude? Originally by:** Sophia Truthspeaker You missed the fun part... it doesn't matter where the three points are, they ALWAYS are on a plane. That the plane isn't necessarily what we call horizontal doesn't matter. Draw a triangle on a piece of paper and start waving the paper around. No matter how oyu hold the piece of paper, you will always be able to get from two points to the third. THIS!!
Xianthar STK Scientific The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.02.15 09:00:00 - [76] Originally by: Kopkiller Edit: Did you actually know a GPS knows your altitude? actually it doesn't, the gps system locates the receiver to a point in space through trilateration (apologies for my improper use of triangulation earlier). you would need to compare this point to a topo map to get your true altitude which is what "good" systems do. alternatively you can make estimates at the location of the surface based on the shape of the earth (which is not a sphere) and thus make a guess at the altitude tho its not nearly as accurate and would be similar to a barometric pressure based altimeter reading. cheers
Xianthar STK Scientific The Initiative.	Posted - 2009.02.15 09:02:00 - [77] Originally by: Jack Jombardo Only 3 probes needed would be nice. Had a scan with 7 (!) probes out last night and couldn't get a result better as 81% after nearly full probe-time :(. this has nothing to do with the number of probes, CCP has now said multiple times that the sensor strength of some sites needs to be rebalenced thus the hard to find sites before, 10/10 plexes for example are currently impossible to find. this will be fixed later.
Kayscha	Posted - 2009.02.15 10:18:00 - [78] Originally by: Nyphur Quadlateration. I wrote a program to do this given co-ordinates from 4 known scan points and their distances from the target back when probes weren't out. Then CCP made probes and the thing was pretty useless :S. Still nice in theory and the maths for it is very fast if you know how to do it, is the new system actually using that? Hehe - so I wasn't the only one who thought of that. Too bad I never could solve the equation from that in a satisfactory manner (rusty maths skills), so I gave it up eventually. Still, I was quite bummed by the current probe system when it came out, since it felt very aritficial. So while I can't seem to get the Apo client running atm, I'm really looking forward to the new system. BTW, for those that said realism was irrelevant, only fun was: I guess for many players, fun is increased if a feature feels consistent with the credible illusion of a world that the game provides. Sure, a Peggle-style scanning minigame might be more fun per se, but the game as a whole would be lessened by it for me by its artificiality.
Nyphur Pillowsoft	Posted - 2009.02.15 11:56:00 - [79] Originally by: Kayscha Originally by: Nyphur Quadlateration. I wrote a program to do this given co-ordinates from 4 known scan points and their distances from the target back when probes weren't out. Then CCP made probes and the thing was pretty useless :S. Still nice in theory and the maths for it is very fast if you know how to do it, is the new system actually using that? Hehe - so I wasn't the only one who thought of that. Too bad I never could solve the equation from that in a satisfactory manner (rusty maths skills), so I gave it up eventually. Me neither, I had to get some help from people on a forum to solve the equation but the solution itself calculates extremely quickly. The sad part is I got the program working fully but at the time I was only used to programming with 2D graphics packages. The result was this, a program that worked out the location in 3D but could only display it in 2D. When I tested it out, I tested it on a mission-runner who was off the system plane, so while I got spot on with the X and Y plane, I didn't see the Z plane difference. I was determined to get a version with 3D graphics working before releasing or selling the tool and before I could master that they released probes. EVE-Tanking.com - Helping you keep your hull in-tact.
Elegbara	Posted - 2009.02.15 12:07:00 - [80] Edited by: Elegbara on 15/02/2009 12:07:39 Originally by: Dread Jack An example of this in EvE would be, a wormhole (unknown point), your ship, and one probe. I'll go along with the idea that the ship itself isn't a viable scan platform and launching two probes to form the basis of your triangle is necessary. Three probes? "Math" says it can be done with two. Whatever its a game. FOUR probes is ridiculous by any standard. Initially, you're looking for something located in 3-dimensional piece of space and can be described with 3 unknown parameters. One probe says you the range to the signature you got and limits it to sphere around that probe - now it is something 2-dimensional and we have to get only 2 more unknown parameters. Second probe tells you another range and it limits the signature location to just a circle - something one-dimensional. One unknown parameter. And the last probe turs that circle to something 0-dimensional .. but that's not 1 point, that's two points! So far we've been decreasing number of dimensions of a certain sphere. 3-dimensional sphere is something like "whole space", 2-dimensional sphere is your usual sphere, 1-dimensional sphere is actually a circle and 0-dimensional sphere is a couple of points. 2 points, not one. So you need 4th probe to find which point of these two is actual signature. On the other hand I'd prefered if I had an option of warping firs to one of those two, then to another. Open your eyes. And Awaken.

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