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Dread Jack
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Posted - 2009.02.14 08:36:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Dread Jack on 14/02/2009 08:40:48
You can find the location of an unknown point by forming a triangle having the unknown point and two known points as the vertices. This is triangulation.
An example of this in EvE would be, a wormhole (unknown point), your ship, and one probe. I'll go along with the idea that the ship itself isn't a viable scan platform and launching two probes to form the basis of your triangle is necessary. Three probes? "Math" says it can be done with two. Whatever its a game. FOUR probes is ridiculous by any standard.
What is the design idea behind needing 5 points of reference (a ship and four probes) to locate an object in 3d space? Are there balance issues I'm not considering?
The biggest complaint so far with the new scanning method is how clumsy the interface is, why require us to micro-manage the kluge interface any more than needed? Ask your self, as a game designer, "Is this balanced? Is this fun? Is this as simple as possible?" if any of those answers is no, there's something wrong with your design.
CCP has great ideas but hides them behind some of the worst UI I've ever struggled with. |
Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.02.14 08:44:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Dread Jack
Ask your self, as a game designer, "Is this balanced? Is this fun? Is this as simple as possible?" if any of those answers is no, there's something wrong with your design.
Welcome to the wonderful world of Eve.
Still it is the best we have there ... yet. |
Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.02.14 08:44:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Dread Jack
"Math" says it can be done with two.
You might want to read the devs post about it, instead of complaining? If you won't, let me summarize it for you by saying that now probes report only a scalar value, i.e. the distance of the signature.
If with this bit of information you can't understand why you need at least four probes to locate a spot, my suggestion is you do not speak anymore about math (especially geometry) if you don't want to look silly. |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2009.02.14 09:02:00 -
[4]
depends on the coordination system ...
you need 3 angles and a distance reading in 3D space for an exact location.
triangulation only works if you want the direction where the signal is comming from, you can judge the distance by type and signal strength, but that's not accurate. |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2009.02.14 09:03:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Space Wanderer
Edited by: Space Wanderer on 14/02/2009 08:47:26
Originally by: Dread Jack
"Math" says it can be done with two.
You might want to read the devs post about it, instead of complaining? If you won't, let me summarize it for you by saying that now probes report only a scalar value, i.e. the distance of the signature.
If with this bit of information you can't understand why you need at least four probes to locate a spot, my suggestion is you do not speak anymore about math (especially geometry) if you don't want to look silly.
EDIT: Anyway, I tried the new system finally, I couldn't find the spot due to insufficient sig strength, but I still enjoyed the new system a lot. It is an excellent blow to all the afk-ness of scanning. It still needs some tweaks because of the low low sig strengths, the uncomfortable widgets, and the wrong allocation of scan bonuses from skills/equipment, but it really looks very very promising.
if you can't get a warpable result, you need to narrow down on it, lowering the scan range of the probes increases their accuracy. |
Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.14 09:06:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Dread Jack
Edited by: Dread Jack on 14/02/2009 08:40:48
You can find the location of an unknown point by forming a triangle having the unknown point and two known points as the vertices. This is triangulation.
An example of this in EvE would be, a wormhole (unknown point), your ship, and one probe. I'll go along with the idea that the ship itself isn't a viable scan platform and launching two probes to form the basis of your triangle is necessary. Three probes? "Math" says it can be done with two. Whatever its a game. FOUR probes is ridiculous by any standard.
Triangulation (with 3 probes) works ONLY one one plane. If you add "depth" (or 3rd dimension) you need 4th point (probe) to get exact location. |
Dread Jack
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Posted - 2009.02.14 09:20:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Dread Jack on 14/02/2009 09:21:29
Originally by: Space Wanderer
probes report only a scalar value, i.e. the distance of the signature.
If the pretend technology explanation a developer invents is the reason why the UI is needlessly complicated I say change it.
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
triangulation only works if you want the direction where the signal is comming from
This is not accurate.
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Triangulation (with 3 probes) works ONLY one one plane. If you add "depth" (or 3rd dimension) you need 4th point (probe) to get exact location.
Also, not accurate.
Triangulation is done with 2 known points and 1 unknown point. A line is drawn in the direction of the unknown from the 2 known points. Where the lines intersect is your unknown and you can calculate distance. It works in both 2D and 3D.
Triangulation isn't the point. Creating a fun, simple and balanced scanning mechanic is.
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Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.14 09:37:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 14/02/2009 09:43:57
Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 14/02/2009 09:42:06
But it IS fun and quite simple. Problems are:
1. interface is slow and cumbersome. There are 10000 other ways you could move probes around which would be simpler and faster at the same time
2. still lack of scatter (thus making it too easy in some cases).
3. it is almost useless for fast ship scanning.
Perfect method would be: use old scanning system for ships and new for exploration.
EDIT:
as for triangulation: you need to know 3 points. Going by wiki (which is pretty accurate on this one):
The coordinates and distance to a point can be found by calculating the length of one side of a triangle, given measurements of angles and sides of the triangle formed by that point and two other known reference points.
You need to know lenght of one triangle side. Thus A-B distance, wheras A and B are probes 1 and 2. The said "measurements of angles and sides" are to give you C - thus 3rd point/probe. So all in all even if you know only 2 points and some angles/distances you can come up with 3rd location from it. And how does it differ from having 3 known probes and unknown location around them?
As for 3d space you need 1 more point (tetrasomethingsomething - too long name for me to try and spell correctly ;p).
EDIT2:
i do have better link than wiki (with proper explanation of how it works etc) but its in Polish unfortunately, so not much of a help (tho its only equations, so if you want i can link it). |
Dr Slaughter
Minmatar
Rabies Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.14 09:39:00 -
[9]
I propose a diffraction-type optical triangulation sensor based on the diffraction theorem and the laser triangulation method. The advantage of the proposed sensor is that it obtains not only the linear displacement of a moving object but also its three angular motion errors. The developed sensor is composed mainly of a laser source, two quadrant detectors, and a reflective diffraction grating. The reflective diffraction grating can reflect the incident laser beam into several diffractive rays, and two quadrant detectors were set up for detecting the position of 0- and +1-order diffraction rays. According to the optical triangulation relationship between the spatial incident angles of a laser beam and the output coordinates of two quadrant detectors, the displacement and the three angular motion errors of a moving object can be obtained simultaneously!
Then we only need one probe.  |
Joseph Juneau
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Posted - 2009.02.14 09:44:00 -
[10]
Yeah as previusly stated in 3d space if the info from 1 probe is only distance u need 4 probes (check how gps works, where u need at least 4 satelites in fov to be able to get ur location)
However the problem about the new probing is the ship probing which got a huge nerf, previusly u were able to scan a ship down in less than 20sec, with the new system its gona take way more even with "uber micro", and since recently i only see pirate nerfs (qr made it so a hictor even with 2 sensor boosters cant lock a cruiser at the gate before it warps off, than the concord boost etc...).
So my sugestion for the probing, that would make it less nerfed is that is that u could set a default distance and than launch 4 probes which would scater around ur own ship at that distance and u could move all of the probes simultanusly on the map. So if u know the possible ship location (by directional scanner) u could in few click just move the set of probes at that point and press scan. It isnt much of a change just a interface of controling the probes isnt that hellish. Also some kind of grid and maybe an option to "snap to grid" wouldnt be a bad idea eigter. |
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Gnulpie
Minmatar
Miner Tech
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Posted - 2009.02.14 09:44:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Dread Jack
Triangulation isn't the point. Creating a fun, simple and balanced scanning mechanic is.
That is exactly the point!
Man, folks, don't be silly and argue with 'real world' comparisons in Eve. Or can you please give me a physically and mathematically correct explanation of how warp, instant communication and all fancy stuff in Eve works?
IT IS FICTION!!!
And please don't tell me that the immersion would be destroyed if we would have a better interface with scanning. Besides, the current scanning on TQ works with ONE probe only. So, how is that possible if we need at least 4 probes? A sudden loss of knowledge in scanning-technology? Yeah yeah. 
Dev techno-babble, though fancy as it might sound, can NEVER justify a crappy UI. Mind you, I do not say that the current scanning UI is altogehter crap. I just say that techno-talk cannot justify bad UI.
But it is fact that the current movement system of the probes could need some ... improves. There are many suggestions in the scanning thread already, so no need to talk about it here. |
Saietor Blackgreen
The First Foundation
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Posted - 2009.02.14 09:51:00 -
[12]
OP is wrong. You need 4 points akshully.
The probes sense distance to the target, not the direction - thats what they show in the result of scan. Dont ask me why it is like that, welcome to Eve :)
Thus, if you have 3 probes with a set of 3 distances to the anomaly form each probe, there are 2 points in space that correspond to this combination. |
Miss Moonwych
Formedian Shadows
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Posted - 2009.02.14 09:51:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Miss Moonwych on 14/02/2009 09:52:36
With "normal" triangulation you measure angles. So on a plane you only need to detect the angles from 2 points to determine the location of a third point. This is even true for more dimensions: only two points needed if you can measure the direction of say the signal coming from a spacecraft. The basic idea behind it is that you have two points of a triangle and two angles, so you can finish drawing the rest of the triangle.
In Eve distances are measured. Because of that if everything happens to be right on a plane you need 3 points to determine the target. But when things are not on a place - and they usually aren't - you really need 4 otherwise you will get two results.
I kinda like the new system btw  Will see how it pans out when they enhance the GUI somewhat and work out deviations.
Regards,
M.M. |
Dr Slaughter
Minmatar
Rabies Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.14 09:52:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Gnulpie
[
Man, folks, don't be silly and argue with 'real world' comparisons in Eve.
Silly. Yes.
They could use Delta-DOR and use two widely separated probes to simultaneously track a transmitting (assuming that's how we detect stuff) target signature in order to measure the time difference ('delay time') between signals arriving at the two probes. The technique of measuring this delay is named Differential One-way Range (DOR).
Theoretically, the delay depends only on the positions of the two probes and the target signature source. However, in reality, the delay is affected by several sources of error: for example, the radio waves travelling through any gas clouds in the system, solar plasma, and clock instabilities between the probes and your ship.
'Real' Delta-DOR corrects these errors by 'tracking' a quasar - a fixed, highly stable quasi-stellar radio source - in a direction close to the signature for calibration. The chosen quasar's direction is already known extremely accurately by astronomical measurements, typically to better than 50 billionths of a degree (a nanoradian). In Eve I'm sure we would have fantastically accurate clocks and better tech to implement the sensors with.
In principle, the delay time of the quasar is subtracted from that of the target signatures to provide the delta-DOR measurement (the Greek symbol 'delta' is commonly used to denote 'difference'). The delay is converted to distance by multiplying by the speed of light.
A complication is that the quasar and target signature cannot be measured simultaneously. In practice, three scans are made: target_signature-quasar-target_signature or quasar-target_signature-quasar, and then interpolation between the first and third converts them to the same time as the second measurement, from which the delta-DOR data point is calculated. |
Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.14 09:52:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen
OP is wrong. You need 4 points akshully.
The probes sense distance to the target, not the direction - thats what they show in the result of scan. Dont ask me why it is like that, welcome to Eve :)
Thus, if you have 3 probes with a set of 3 distances to the anomaly form each probe, there are 2 points in space that correspond to this combination.
Actually if you use 2 probles only you will see "red rings" between em. This is the area in which signature might be (need 3rd probe to get 2 locations for same sig). |
Hoshi
Eviction.
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Posted - 2009.02.14 09:58:00 -
[16]
Seems pointless to discuss triangulation considering that the scan system doesn't use triangulation in any form it uses Trilateration.
----------------------------------------
A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.14 10:23:00 -
[17]
Ahhh so thats the mathematical name for it. Thx :)
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Dr Slaughter
Minmatar
Rabies Inc.
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Posted - 2009.02.14 10:26:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Hoshi
Seems pointless to discuss triangulation considering that the scan system doesn't use triangulation in any form it uses Trilateration.
2 probes and Delta DOR is totally the way this would work but whatever. It's very similar to trilateration but with two sensors, and a well known static point, and multiple scans. Anyway....
~~~~
There is no parody in this thread. Honest. |
Flinchey
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.02.14 10:27:00 -
[19]
ITT people who never did advanced maths in highschool (hence vector geometry)
2 points you can get magnitude and direction (and with enough trial and error, location)
3 you can get location, in 3 dimensional space
4 is wtf? i can't understand why you'd need 4. |
Miss Moonwych
Formedian Shadows
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Posted - 2009.02.14 10:28:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Miss Moonwych on 14/02/2009 10:28:08
Originally by: Hoshi
Seems pointless to discuss triangulation considering that the scan system doesn't use triangulation in any form it uses Trilateration.
Exactly.
To the devs: might be a good idea if you won't call it triangulation anymore. It causes confusion.
Regards,
M.M. |
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Dread Jack
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Posted - 2009.02.14 10:34:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Hoshi
Seems pointless to discuss triangulation considering that the scan system doesn't use triangulation in any form it uses Trilateration.
I see your point and agree. It was a mistake on my part to imagine a simpler design. CCP chose to implement a more complicated mechanic, and are far beyond the design phase. Here's hoping they improve the UI for it and make it balanced for PvP use.
I throw this thread to the wolves. Have at it you jackals, the point is lost on you.
(k.i.s.s.) |
Flinchey
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.02.14 10:38:00 -
[22]
still:
Trilateration is a method for determining the intersections of three sphere surfaces given the centers and radii of the three spheres.
same principal as triangulation
now where's the quad come in here? |
Deva Blackfire
coracao ardente
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Posted - 2009.02.14 10:39:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Flinchey
still:
Trilateration is a method for determining the intersections of three sphere surfaces given the centers and radii of the three spheres.
same principal as triangulation
now where's the quad come in here?
read Hoshi's link. its on plane (2d) not 3d space |
Miss Moonwych
Formedian Shadows
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Posted - 2009.02.14 10:45:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Miss Moonwych on 14/02/2009 10:46:40
Originally by: Flinchey
still:
Trilateration is a method for determining the intersections of three sphere surfaces given the centers and radii of the three spheres.
same principal as triangulation
now where's the quad come in here?
If you read the wiki page about trilateration, it says:
Quote:
Because z is expressed as the positive or negative square root, it is possible for there to be zero, one or two solutions to the problem.
And two solutions to the problem means two points. In order to bring that down to 1 you'll have to add another probe. Either that or CCP could simply allow is to warp to both points.
Regards,
M.M. |
Ayari
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Posted - 2009.02.14 11:20:00 -
[25]
The way I thought triangulation worked was that the two points of reference report the direction of the target, but not the range, the range to target is calculated by the intersection of two directions.
This works in 3d space too, because the direction lines will always intersect at the right point. Obviously the new probe method doesn't use real triangulation.
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Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
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Bimjo
Caldari
Domination.
Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.02.14 11:31:00 -
[26]
how probes work :
1 probe : scan result is a sphere around probe , wormhole can be anywhere within, reason is one probe hasn't got enough signal strength to pinpoint location.
2 probes : if their result spheres intersect we get the RRR "red result ring" , again 2 probes haven't got enough signal strength to pinpoint it
3 probes : if all three result spheres intersect we get a point in space,and 3 probes are still not strong enough to pinpoint the result accurately,remember a 500k deviation means we will be warping to the wrong grid !!!
4 probes intersecting : result
------------------------
You have to mix real life maths with game mechanics(e.g. 3 probes haven't got the electronics to pinpoint a result) otherwise we should complain why CCP based our ship movement in space on fluid dynamics and not Newtonian physics
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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2009.02.14 11:32:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Ayari
The way I thought triangulation worked was that the two points of reference report the direction of the target, but not the range, the range to target is calculated by the intersection of two directions.
This works in 3d space too, because the direction lines will always intersect at the right point. Obviously the new probe method doesn't use real triangulation.
as was said, you need 3 reference points to calculate position in 2d space. however you are scanning in 3d in EVE.
--- SIG ---
CSM: your support is needed ! |
Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.02.14 12:24:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: Space Wanderer
EDIT: Anyway, I tried the new system finally, I couldn't find the spot due to insufficient sig strength, but I still enjoyed the new system a lot. It is an excellent blow to all the afk-ness of scanning. It still needs some tweaks because of the low low sig strengths, the uncomfortable widgets, and the wrong allocation of scan bonuses from skills/equipment, but it really looks very very promising.
if you can't get a warpable result, you need to narrow down on it, lowering the scan range of the probes increases their accuracy.
Oh, i did that, sent 7 probes with 0.25AU all around the spot, still got only an 80% sig str. Probably I got one of the hard-to-find sites.
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Kopkiller
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Posted - 2009.02.14 12:26:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Kopkiller on 14/02/2009 12:28:20
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: Ayari
The way I thought triangulation worked was that the two points of reference report the direction of the target, but not the range, the range to target is calculated by the intersection of two directions.
This works in 3d space too, because the direction lines will always intersect at the right point. Obviously the new probe method doesn't use real triangulation.
as was said, you need 3 reference points to calculate position in 2d space. however you are scanning in 3d in EVE.
Stop saying stupid things. Triangulation works by its principle indepedently of number of dimensions, or you just didn't understand how it works at school.
And it's not the problem anyway, 99% of eve is not realistic "real life" wise.
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achoura
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Posted - 2009.02.14 12:53:00 -
[30]
Tri means three, quite why some bright spark thought it smart to use that prefix knowing full well that 4 probes are being use is beyond me, although any high school english/math/physics/anyone with a rudimenty education knows it's wrong, so why a designer can't get it right is just... Anyway, as the last person said, provided you have three intendant locations with ranges in both two and three dimensions (x, y, z axis ring any bells?), last time i check eve isn't running in the forth dimension  Now failing of the name aside, the server already knows the location of the complex & probes so really it isn't calculating anything, it's just telling you how close you're getting so loose probe four doesn't actually do much.
Just cleans up the overly cluttered/horribly unintuitive UI, makes scanning more efficient/simpler and generally improves ease of use. The only possible reason for requiring four probes i can think of is balancing i.e time sink but tbfh three probes & increased scan time would be preferable to instant scan time and appalling UI. Oh and good luck probing for ships, in it's current state by the time you've negotiated the ui, placed your "four" probes for your "triangulation" the person you were looking for has had time to make another four/five ss.
Q. Since you only need three, but are launching four, technically you're adding 25% more work to the server. From a design efficiency perspective this is not a good thing so why, given the "need for speed initiative" ccp has been publicly pushing the past year, has this been chosen?
***The EVE servers and their patches*** |
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Equium Duo
Minmatar
Gauss Codazzi
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Posted - 2009.02.14 12:57:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Equium Duo on 14/02/2009 12:57:22
Guys please, lets just go back to what we love, the way stargate did it!
You need 6 probes! To for 3- intersecting lines, then your ship is the point of origin!!
Obvious!!
Sheesh..
This is how i think this is working,
You have two intersecting lines AB and CD, with a scan deviation for them so the way i uderstand it you get an overlapping area in the middle as your scan result,
Here is a picture of how i imagine it works (it's 2d, but i think it applies to 3d aswell)
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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2009.02.14 13:08:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Kopkiller
Edited by: Kopkiller on 14/02/2009 12:28:20
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: Ayari
The way I thought triangulation worked was that the two points of reference report the direction of the target, but not the range, the range to target is calculated by the intersection of two directions.
This works in 3d space too, because the direction lines will always intersect at the right point. Obviously the new probe method doesn't use real triangulation.
as was said, you need 3 reference points to calculate position in 2d space. however you are scanning in 3d in EVE.
Stop saying stupid things. Triangulation works by its principle indepedently of number of dimensions, or you just didn't understand how it works at school.
And it's not the problem anyway, 99% of eve is not realistic "real life" wise.
forget the word and think ... think 3D
A plane is definded by 2 vectors, means you need 3 points minimum.
to define a line in 3d, you intersect 2 planes - 6 points
to define a point, 3 planes - 9 points
now you only have your probe and a distance measure, means each probe forms gives a spherical reading to the same signature.
intersecting 3 spheres does not give you a point reading, it gives 2 points (or a line if you want). 3 circles in 2D give a point, however you are missing one dimension in 3D.
SO YOU NEED 4 probes ...
--- SIG ---
CSM: your support is needed ! |
Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.02.14 13:42:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Space Wanderer on 14/02/2009 13:42:26
Originally by: achoura
Tri means three,
....
Q. Since you only need three, but are launching four,
*groan*... another smart one who thinks he knows math. Man, the info in the dev posts are correct, the mechanism by which probes work (distance detection) require four probes minimum. If you, or anybody else, think three should be enough, you either did not read the dev posts or you are just not material for a prober.
No matter to me, devs have set up what, with some tweaks, might be a very good system. Kudos to them, and I hope they manage to fix the issues with scanning down ships. I wonder, to this aim, whether the directional scanner is now obsolete. Too easy to spot incoming hostiles/probes, and get away, by using it.
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mamolian
Cruoris Seraphim
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Posted - 2009.02.14 14:02:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
Triangulation (with 3 probes) works ONLY one one plane. If you add "depth" (or 3rd dimension) you need 4th point (probe) to get exact location.
This 
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Haral Reimo
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Posted - 2009.02.14 14:06:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Joseph Juneau
Yeah as previusly stated in 3d space if the info from 1 probe is only distance u need 4 probes (check how gps works, where u need at least 4 satelites in fov to be able to get ur location)
Not quite. You only need 3 satellites with GPS, because although that gives you two points (see below for why) you can discard one as it will be in orbit above the GPS satellites and they only broadcast downwards... It's actually a little more complicated with GPS as you don't know the exact distance (unless you have a synchronised atomic clock with you), you only know the difference in distance between you and each satellite
Originally by: Bimjo
how probes work :
1 probe : scan result is a sphere around probe , wormhole can be anywhere within, reason is one probe hasn't got enough signal strength to pinpoint location.
Actually, the scan result is only the surface of the sphere, the scan point cannot be within. The reason is that the probe knows how far away the point is, but not the direction.
Originally by: Bimjo
2 probes : if their result spheres intersect we get the RRR "red result ring"
The intersection of two hollow spheres is a circle. The point will be somewhere on that circle as they are the only points that are the correct distance from both probes.
Originally by: Bimjo
3 probes : if all three result spheres intersect we get a point in space,and 3 probes are still not strong enough to pinpoint the result accurately,remember a 500k deviation means we will be warping to the wrong grid !!!
Not true. A 3rd sphere will intersect the circle in two places
Originally by: Bimjo
4 probes intersecting : result[8)
The 4th sphere will only intersect one of the two points, identifying it as the correct location
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Kazang
Gallente
Arbitrary Freedom
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Posted - 2009.02.14 15:01:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Kazang on 14/02/2009 15:03:33
Originally by: Hoshi
Seems pointless to discuss triangulation considering that the scan system doesn't use triangulation in any form it uses Trilateration.
Quote:
Trilateration is a method for determining the intersections of three sphere surfaces given the centers and radii of the three spheres.
3 not 4.
Use 4 probes rather than 3 is just stupid, for both balance reasons (have you tried to move probes around when you have 4 or more probes on top of each other ) and plain maths reasons.
It seriously makes me doubt the intelligence of the dev team, like the typo of "analize", and thats just depressing 
Anyone who knows anything about trilatertion is doing a major facepalm anytime they open up the scan UI. Even the fact the they called it "triangulation" is deeply confusing, triangulation uses angles (the clue is in the name  ) to find distances. It does not use distances to find postions.
Even without high horse "ive been to uni and know what i'm taking about" bull**** chest beating from me, its not an intuitive or effective system to use in game.
For lots of reasons: the aforementioned moving probes once they get very close together, the whole cant stack used probes thing, the lag that will be caused by every player in EVE having 4 or more probes out when this goes live on TQ.
And probably more that haven't occurred to me yet.
Kazang
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achoura
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Posted - 2009.02.14 15:25:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Space Wanderer
*groan*... another smart one who thinks he knows math. Man, the info in the dev posts are correct, the mechanism by which probes work (distance detection) require four probes minimum. If you, or anybody else, think three should be enough, you either did not read the dev posts or you are just not material for a prober.
No matter to me, devs have set up what, with some tweaks, might be a very good system. Kudos to them, and I hope they manage to fix the issues with scanning down ships. I wonder, to this aim, whether the directional scanner is now obsolete. Too easy to spot incoming hostiles/probes, and get away, by using it.
..and if you were as smart as you think you are you would have noticed i already said the server knows the final location in advance and is not calculating anything. Given that the ui is so bloody awful (i.e. it hinders more than it helps) and that it take so long (making it worthless for pvp) the few seconds saved by not using probe no. four i.e. not having to attempt to put it over the first three probes without moving them, adjusting their size, the camera, or their placement, balances out. If the theoretical few seconds required to move probe no. four matters so such add it to scan time.
There's simply no point is using the final probe for differentiating the locations when the server can do that for you while making the actual probe placement less frustrating and having one less piece of data floating in space. Currently in busy 0.0 systems just dropping one probe in a busy spot finds ssed ships, in future it will require four (preferably three) which will have to be relayed to every client in system. The less data needing shifted the smoother the game runs, and as the people behind the "need for speed" know, afew little saving add up.
For the record, using the distance from four points to calculate a fifth is not triangulation, triangulation uses angles. As i already said, i find it incredible that someone would actually label it thus in the notes, either they are doing the math and don't know the manes or are writing notes for something they have no clue about.
***The EVE servers and their patches*** |
mamolian
Cruoris Seraphim
|
Posted - 2009.02.14 15:50:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Haral Reimo
Stuff
Correct. Harals post explained visually:
Pic 1
Pic 2
Pic 3
Pic 4
Pic 5
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2009.02.14 15:50:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Space Wanderer
now probes report only a scalar value, i.e. the distance of the signature.
If with this bit of information you can't understand why you need at least four probes to locate a spot
Quadlateration. I wrote a program to do this given co-ordinates from 4 known scan points and their distances from the target back when probes weren't out. Then CCP made probes and the thing was pretty useless :S. Still nice in theory and the maths for it is very fast if you know how to do it, is the new system actually using that?
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.02.14 16:16:00 -
[40]
Originally by: achoura
There's simply no point is using the final probe for differentiating the locations when the server can do that for you while making the actual probe placement less frustrating and having one less piece of data floating in space.
So you are saying that in your opinion using four probes is not good game balancing. That might be true. But don't hide behind pseudomath to say that. You are asking devs to shortcut a perfectly working, and correct, system for sake of what you believe to be increased playability. That is fine. Or you may try to "prove" that devs math is wrong. That is silly.
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BiggestT
Caldari
Resurrection
Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2009.02.14 16:21:00 -
[41]
Slightly off topic but..
I find it hilarious that people claim that triangulation is useless in a 3d world (with depth), when thye use it themselves in a world of depth (the real world ofc).
Your using it right now!
Your eyes use triangulation to judge depth, distance and an overall location in a 3-D world.
As to why probes cannot use the same function I have no idea..seems very simple to implement...
EVE history
t2 precisions |
achoura
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Posted - 2009.02.14 16:42:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Space Wanderer
So you are saying that in your opinion using four probes is not good game balancing. That might be true. But don't hide behind pseudomath to say that. You are asking devs to shortcut a perfectly working, and correct, system for sake of what you believe to be increased playability. That is fine. Or you may try to "prove" that devs math is wrong. That is silly.
There is no need to prove anything, triangulation uses angles to calculate location, this is a simple fact which any standard grade math student (read 14/15 year old) can tell you.
Though yes, manipulating there overlapping probes in the map is far, far easier than attempting four.
***The EVE servers and their patches*** |
Kazang
Gallente
Arbitrary Freedom
|
Posted - 2009.02.14 16:46:00 -
[43]
Originally by: mamolian
Correct. Harals post explained visually:
Pic 1
Pic 2
Pic 3
Pic 4
Pic 5
No your image 4 is incorrect, your thinking the 3rd probe result is circle or a flat plane, it is not a plane. It is a single linear distance, which is visualy represented as a sphere, the probes give a radius as result. 3 spheres can only intersect at a single point in your image, the distance and 3rd sphere is tangential to the result of the other 2 probes, which is represented as a circle. In the scanner UI this a red circle. You are not thinking in 3D.
Plan and elevation view of the probes
A,B and C are the probes, the black lines and circles represent the scan result. Its a single distance. Which expands to a sphere.
The red line in elevation is a radial result from 2 probes, it is a circle in plan. The 3rd probe's result will be a sphere tangential to the red cirle, giving a single result! The yellow and blue lines are the results of the 2 other probes with respect to each other.
However, a problem does arise if the origin of the 3rd probe is within the radius of the other 2 spheres, thus possibly giving 2 positives like so.... one of which is false. But it is quite difficult to achieve this result, 99% of the time it will work fine with 3 and you will get a single result, like so. Using 4 probes does somewhat remove this problem but it still possible get a false positive with 4 probes, just even more unlikely than it is with 3. Its a lag and frustration causing, ultimately inelegant way of solving the problem. Kinda like coding in python
The simple way to stop false positives is to simply place the 3rd probe far enough away from the other 2 to get an accurate result. Not to add more probes. Complicated maths will often end up with multiple answers, only one of which is correct, its up to the person doing the calculation to use his/her logic to determine the correct one.
And this kids is why computers crash.
Kazang
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COMMANDER KATHRYN
Gallente
DEATHFUNK
Doctrine.
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Posted - 2009.02.14 16:48:00 -
[44]
aaack!! leave it to ccp to (TRY, FAIL )fix what wasnt broken. The new scanning interface is way to clumsy why not just have the 4 drones automatically quad around a specific(player chosen) spot. As you increase the scan range the drones move outward from each other automatically. Instead we have to fight with moving them individually which sucks as I keep trying to change the scan range (by accident)while clicking the arrows to move the drone. It really becomes an issue when there are several signatures in close proximity to each other.
But what should we expect while they try to change to much with in the game in one upgrade.
At this point the whole of the new scanning/probing interface seems a bit to rushed
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Caius Severus
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Posted - 2009.02.14 16:51:00 -
[45]
Why are people having such trouble understanding the need for 4 probes? Forget the fact that the server knows where the target is, that is irrelavent. Your ship is not considered one of the locations used to measure distance, only the probes are.
It has been said that these new probes determine a distance to a target and nothing else, with an increasing margin of error according to their range. This gives the following effect:
1 probe is sufficient to determine the distance of a target, placing it anywhere on the surface of a sphere that size.
2 probes is sufficient to determine the location of the target anywhere on a circle where the surfaces of the spheres from each probes intersect.
3 probes narrows it down to 2 possible locations.
4 probes eliminates the incorrect one of the previous 2 locations giving a final location of the target which you can warp to. If the probes are too far away the signal is poor and you need to move them closer to get a warp in.
Incidentally, this is exactly the same method a GPS receiver calculates its location - by determining the distance to each satellite. If you use one, you will notice that you can get a 2d fix with 3 satellites, because the 2nd incorrect location can be rejected because the reciever knows that it has to be approximately on the surface of the earth, and the wrong one will be off in space somewhere. A 4th satellite allows a positive 3d fix and gives altitude as well.
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Sophia Truthspeaker
THE INTERNET.
Goodfellas.
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Posted - 2009.02.14 17:07:00 -
[46]
Concerning triangulation.
I understand traingulation as having to known points, and knwoing the angle at which the third point is. Then you know the position of the third point. Pretty easy.
The fun part is, it doesn't matter if you are in a 2d, 3d or 86d environment. A triangle will always be on a plane. If a chair has three legs, all three legs will touch the ground. There is no case in which one leg of the chair doesn't reach the floor unlike a chair with four legs.
That being said, it isn't triangulation used with scanning. It measures (like gps) the distances between points. If you got one probe and you know how far away your other point is, it is in a ball around the prob. If you got two probes, you get a circle, because a circle is the intersection between two balls. Three probes, two points, because the intersection of three balls are on two points.
That is the reason why you need 4 probes.
_________
Proposed Mining and Attribute Changes
The truth is out there |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
|
Posted - 2009.02.14 17:41:00 -
[47]
Originally by: BiggestT
Slightly off topic but..
I find it hilarious that people claim that triangulation is useless in a 3d world (with depth), when thye use it themselves in a world of depth (the real world ofc).
Your using it right now!
Your eyes use triangulation to judge depth, distance and an overall location in a 3-D world.
As to why probes cannot use the same function I have no idea..seems very simple to implement...
omg ... fail
triangulation only works on a 2d plane ... your eyes are refocusing rapidly on different points on the object, and yous brain is just fooling around with the results. that's why you can perceive 3d space on a 2d surface when you are presented the right picture. if this worked as you say, stereograms would never work for humans ...
--- SIG ---
CSM: your support is needed ! |
Theqwert125
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Posted - 2009.02.14 17:41:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Theqwert125 on 14/02/2009 17:41:45
Here is why you are wrong: the probes ONLY measure distance. This means that triANG(le)ulation will not work; you must use trilaterization, which, as stated in the article, results in two points, one above and one below the plane of the probes, requiring a fourth to eliminate the erroneous one. The ship does not count as a point of reference, as it does not have a probe's scanning equipment, and cannot detect things like wormholes. The dev, quite bluntly, misspoke when he said triangulation.
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Sophia Truthspeaker
THE INTERNET.
Goodfellas.
|
Posted - 2009.02.14 18:17:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
omg ... fail
triangulation only works on a 2d plane ... your eyes are refocusing rapidly on different points on the object, and yous brain is just fooling around with the results. that's why you can perceive 3d space on a 2d surface when you are presented the right picture. if this worked as you say, stereograms would never work for humans ...
Yep, triangulation only works on a plane... pity that you can draw a plane through any three points you care to set... which means it works in 3d because it works in 2d ^^
_________
Proposed Mining and Attribute Changes
The truth is out there |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
|
Posted - 2009.02.14 18:23:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Hugh Ruka on 14/02/2009 18:23:57
Originally by: Sophia Truthspeaker
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
omg ... fail
triangulation only works on a 2d plane ... your eyes are refocusing rapidly on different points on the object, and yous brain is just fooling around with the results. that's why you can perceive 3d space on a 2d surface when you are presented the right picture. if this worked as you say, stereograms would never work for humans ...
Yep, triangulation only works on a plane... pity that you can draw a plane through any three points you care to set... which means it works in 3d because it works in 2d ^^
it works in 2d but that does not mean it works in 3d for exact location. a plane is still not a point in space, it's a plane. and a plane contains an infinite number of points ... needle in haystack is freaking easy compare to that ...
--- SIG ---
CSM: your support is needed ! |
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Jian Gi
Caldari
Destructive Influence
KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.02.14 18:41:00 -
[51]
Actually this is one of the closest to RL aspects of EVE!
Ever wondered why you need at least 4 satellites to get a
GPS fix ??
In principal measuring distance is fairly simple (and with
a constant accuracy in regards to object ditance). On the
other hand radial accuracy/discrimination is much harder.
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Miss Moonwych
Formedian Shadows
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Posted - 2009.02.14 18:48:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Miss Moonwych on 14/02/2009 18:53:52
Originally by: Kazang
Plan and elevation view of the probes
A,B and C are the probes, the black lines and circles represent the scan result. Its a single distance. Which expands to a sphere.
The red line in elevation is a radial result from 2 probes, it is a circle in plan. The 3rd probe's result will be a sphere tangential to the red cirle, giving a single result! The yellow and blue lines are the results of the 2 other probes with respect to each other.
Just as a reaction. Your error in thinking is in the above picture.
It should look like this (your left picture):
fixed pic
The black circles (actually two of them each) now represent the scan result on the plane-level of the target and the ghost target. The green dot represents the two possible locations for the target.
Basicly you were/are assuming that the target lies exactly in the A,B,C plane. Which most of the time wont be the case. Only when the target happpens to be perfectly on the same plane as the probes you need just 3 probes (already indicated by the devs). But when they're not on the same plane (99% of the case) you really need 4 probes (or warp to both if that were possible).
Hope that clears it up.
Regards,
M.M.
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Sophia Truthspeaker
THE INTERNET.
Goodfellas.
|
Posted - 2009.02.14 19:00:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
it works in 2d but that does not mean it works in 3d for exact location. a plane is still not a point in space, it's a plane. and a plane contains an infinite
number of points ... needle in haystack is freaking easy compare to that ...
Its pretty easy... imagine a table. On that table three marbles. You know the location of two marbles, and you know the direction you have to take to get from either one of the marbles to the third. Triangulation says you now know the location of the third marble.
To make it 3d, simply lift the table on one side. If the marbles down fall to the floor (because they are sticky or whatever) they will still form a triangle on the table. Let the side of the table fall down, but the marbles will hold their place, and now you got a triangle in 3d, showing you triangulation still works in 3d...
BTW, how do you think surveyors cartographed the land? ^^
_________
Proposed Mining and Attribute Changes
The truth is out there |
Xianthar
STK Scientific
The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2009.02.14 19:44:00 -
[54]
Assuming all fixed points are non co-located and reasonably spaced out around the unknown point
Distance to an unknown point from 1 known location (a probe) will place the unknown spot somewhere in a sphere around that probe with radius = the distance measured.
Distance to an unknown point from 2 known locations will place the unknown location somewhere on the circle than is the intersection of the spheres formed when looking at each probe separately
Distance to an unknown point from 3 known locations will place the unknown location as one of 2 points, the intersection of the spheres formed when looking at each probe separately
Distance to an unknown point from 4 known locations will place the unknown location at precisely 1 possible location.
Nothing is made up here, 4 locations are required to find a point in open 3d space.
Triangulation works on the surface of the earth to find "stuff" because with 3 known distances you get 2 possible locations for the unknown, if the known locations are properly spread out only 1 of those 2 possible points will be on the earths surface, thus you can rule out the other.
More known distances just help to account for inaccuracies in the distance measurement method which there is always some due to various issues. For instance the GPS system has to account for the fact that time travels slower on the earths surface than it does in orbit.
cheers
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Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2009.02.14 19:59:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Sophia Truthspeaker
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
it works in 2d but that does not mean it works in 3d for exact location. a plane is still not a point in space, it's a plane. and a plane contains an infinite
number of points ... needle in haystack is freaking easy compare to that ...
Its pretty easy... imagine a table. On that table three marbles. You know the location of two marbles, and you know the direction you have to take to get from either one of the marbles to the third. Triangulation says you now know the location of the third marble.
To make it 3d, simply lift the table on one side. If the marbles down fall to the floor (because they are sticky or whatever) they will still form a triangle on the table. Let the side of the table fall down, but the marbles will hold their place, and now you got a triangle in 3d, showing you triangulation still works in 3d...
BTW, how do you think surveyors cartographed the land? ^^
I give up ...
--- SIG ---
CSM: your support is needed ! |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
|
Posted - 2009.02.14 20:02:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Xianthar
Triangulation works on the surface of the earth to find "stuff" because with 3 known distances you get 2 possible locations for the unknown, if the known locations are properly spread out only 1 of those 2 possible points will be on the earths surface, thus you can rule out the other.
More known distances just help to account for inaccuracies in the distance measurement method which there is always some due to various issues. For instance the GPS system has to account for the fact that time travels slower on the earths surface than it does in orbit.
cheers
triangulation on earth works only on land. since the height is given by the height of the surface, you only need to work 2 dimensions (a plane bent to form a sphere basicaly).
however it would not work underwater or in the air, as it would give an infinitely long line of possible locations :-)
--- SIG ---
CSM: your support is needed ! |
Raynardine
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Posted - 2009.02.14 20:03:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Deva Blackfire
But it IS fun and quite simple. Problems are:
1. interface is slow and cumbersome. There are 10000 other ways you could move probes around which would be simpler and faster at the same time
I made a post on this, hasn't really gotten much attention beyond pageviews though...
------------
1. Select a probe.
2. Press [m]ovement, or right click anywhere.
3. Hold shift+move the mouse up or down.
4. Right or left click to send the probe to that location.
This is an extremely intuitive method of moving objects in a 3D space. The only 'hard' part about it is figuring out which buttons do what.
[ie - a new player doesn't know that holding shift will shift to the z axis.]
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Hereon Herinnger
Gallente
Nolra Corp
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Posted - 2009.02.14 20:09:00 -
[58]
This isn't that complicated, people. You drop a bunch (number to follow) of probes. Each probe finds the DISTANCE from that probe to the anomaly. So with one probe you can narrow the location down to a sphere around the probe. Two intersecting spheres make a circle. Three resolve to two points (unless you're really really really lucky) and FOUR probes define a single point. Angles, magnitudes, and anything else have nothing to do with it. You only know the distance from the probe to the hit.
Now given the fact that the probes are not perfectly accurate, we must do this again with smaller radius probes. But I think we can all understand that part.
I think the balance is fine (except that some of the scan strengths should be increased so they are possible to pin down, at least with perfect skills and preferably without). |
Xianthar
STK Scientific
The Initiative.
|
Posted - 2009.02.14 20:15:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: Xianthar
Triangulation works on the surface of the earth to find "stuff" because with 3 known distances you get 2 possible locations for the unknown, if the known locations are properly spread out only 1 of those 2 possible points will be on the earths surface, thus you can rule out the other.
More known distances just help to account for inaccuracies in the distance measurement method which there is always some due to various issues. For instance the GPS system has to account for the fact that time travels slower on the earths surface than it does in orbit.
cheers
triangulation on earth works only on land. since the height is given by the height of the surface, you only need to work 2 dimensions (a plane bent to form a sphere basicaly).
however it would not work underwater or in the air, as it would give an infinitely long line of possible locations :-)
nope, you will not get an infinite line of points, you will get precisely 2 points in any reasonable arrangement, its simply the intersection of 3 spherical shells, which can never result in an infinite line.
cheers
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small chimp
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Posted - 2009.02.14 20:27:00 -
[60]
I think a dev stated somewhere that the probim interface is final. live with that!
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Xianthar
STK Scientific
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.02.14 20:32:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Miss Moonwych
Basicly you were/are assuming that the target lies exactly in the A,B,C plane. Which most of the time wont be the case.
M.M.
its also theoretically possible to locate a point with just 2 know distances but the location of the 2 probes and the unknown location would have to be co-linear, the odds of which are really, really bad, still i wonder if CCP implemented it.
cheers
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Hereon Herinnger
Gallente
Nolra Corp
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Posted - 2009.02.14 20:35:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Xianthar
Originally by: Miss Moonwych
Basicly you were/are assuming that the target lies exactly in the A,B,C plane. Which most of the time wont be the case.
M.M.
its also theoretically possible to locate a point with just 2 know distances but the location of the 2 probes and the unknown location would have to be co-linear, the odds of which are really, really bad, still i wonder if CCP implemented it.
cheers
We know they implemented the tiny possibility of a hit with 3 probes so I would assume they did this too. |
Hoshi
Eviction.
|
Posted - 2009.02.14 21:45:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Hoshi on 14/02/2009 21:51:00
Originally by: Xianthar
its also theoretically possible to locate a point with just 2 know distances but the location of the 2 probes and the unknown location would have to be co-linear, the odds of which are really, really bad, still i wonder if CCP implemented it.
cheers
Shouldn't be too hard to test, eject a ship, go back to the ship with a probe ships, launch 2 probes, move them with the arrows in straight opposite directions, scan.
Edit: just tested, does not give a warpable result.
----------------------------------------
A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Sophia Truthspeaker
THE INTERNET.
Goodfellas.
|
Posted - 2009.02.14 22:24:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
triangulation on earth works only on land. since the height is given by the height of the surface, you only need to work 2 dimensions (a plane bent to form a sphere basicaly).
however it would not work underwater or in the air, as it would give an infinitely long line of possible locations :-)
You missed the fun part... it doesn't matter where the three points are, they ALWAYS are on a plane. That the plane isn't necessarily what we call horizontal doesn't matter. Draw a triangle on a piece of paper and start waving the paper around. No matter how oyu hold the piece of paper, you will always be able to get from two points to the third.
The eve system works diffrently, it measure distances, instead of directions. And even on piece of paper and a plane you will get two possible points, if you check distances between points.
_________
Proposed Mining and Attribute Changes
The truth is out there |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
|
Posted - 2009.02.14 22:40:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Sophia Truthspeaker
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
triangulation on earth works only on land. since the height is given by the height of the surface, you only need to work 2 dimensions (a plane bent to form a sphere basicaly).
however it would not work underwater or in the air, as it would give an infinitely long line of possible locations :-)
You missed the fun part... it doesn't matter where the three points are, they ALWAYS are on a plane. That the plane isn't necessarily what we call horizontal doesn't matter. Draw a triangle on a piece of paper and start waving the paper around. No matter how oyu hold the piece of paper, you will always be able to get from two points to the third.
The eve system works diffrently, it measure distances, instead of directions. And even on piece of paper and a plane you will get two possible points, if you check distances between points.
but that's not triangulation ... anyway ... I keep arguing in circles ... point is, EVE new mechanic does not use triangulation ...
--- SIG ---
CSM: your support is needed ! |
Hugh Ruka
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
|
Posted - 2009.02.14 22:43:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Hoshi
Edited by: Hoshi on 14/02/2009 21:51:00
Originally by: Xianthar
its also theoretically possible to locate a point with just 2 know distances but the location of the 2 probes and the unknown location would have to be co-linear, the odds of which are really, really bad, still i wonder if CCP implemented it.
cheers
Shouldn't be too hard to test, eject a ship, go back to the ship with a probe ships, launch 2 probes, move them with the arrows in straight opposite directions, scan.
Edit: just tested, does not give a warpable result.
looking forward to your Apocrypha scanning guide :-)
--- SIG ---
CSM: your support is needed ! |
Chris Liath
Gallente
The Vorlon Empire
Skunk-Works
|
Posted - 2009.02.14 22:50:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Chris Liath on 14/02/2009 22:53:30
Since it's supposedly measuring distance it should be called trilateration anyways.
And three probes, or 2 + 1 ship would be enough.
"Oh dear," says God, "I hadn't thought of that," and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic. |
Sophia Truthspeaker
THE INTERNET.
Goodfellas.
|
Posted - 2009.02.14 22:54:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
looking forward to your Apocrypha scanning guide :-)
Agreed!
Thanks Hoshi, for the first scanning guide. Wouldn't try it on sisi without you helping me understand the privious incarnations.
_________
Proposed Mining and Attribute Changes
The truth is out there |
Hoshi
Eviction.
|
Posted - 2009.02.14 23:03:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Chris Liath
Edited by: Chris Liath on 14/02/2009 22:53:30
Since it's supposedly measuring distance it should be called trilateration anyways.
And three probes, or 2 + 1 ship would be enough.
3 probes or 2+1 ship while being enough in a 2d system would give 2 points in a 3d system, one "above" and one "below" the plane crated by the probes. Because both those points are measured distance from all probes. And incidentally this is how it works in game as well, with 3 probes you get 2 points.
----------------------------------------
A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Captator
Empire Assault Corp
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Posted - 2009.02.15 01:35:00 -
[70]
ITT stuff was learned 
Made interesting reading for me, would I be right in saying:
1) Given a bearing in 3d space and a direction you would only need one probe
2) Given a bearing in 3d space you would only need 2 probes (as the 2 probes and the unknown point would then co-exist on a plane)
3) Given only distances in 3d space you require 4 probes to get 1 defined result, except if:
a) the probes are outside each others spheres of operation, where you require 3 (if otherwise you would get 2 points in this situation).
b) There is also a very small chance of using distance and 2 probes to get a hit, but it wasn't explained how that worked.
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Jack Jombardo
Amarr
Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2009.02.15 02:34:00 -
[71]
Only 3 probes needed would be nice.
Had a scan with 7 (!) probes out last night and couldn't get a result better as 81% after nearly full probe-time :(.
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Car A'Carn
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Posted - 2009.02.15 05:02:00 -
[72]
The problem most people are having in understanding this is that the conventional understanding of triangulation is that you get a direction from two sources and then you follow those two directions to the intersection. The eve system works on distance not direction, and so you need at least 3 sources to get any coherent results.
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Goonda
Minmatar
DOMINATIO
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Posted - 2009.02.15 06:51:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
as was said, you need 3 reference points to calculate position in 2d space. however you are scanning in 3d in EVE.
Incorrect. You only need two reference points to locate a point in 3D. The difference between 2D and 3D is that you need more pieces of information from each reference point.
In 2D triangulation you need the known location of both of your reference points plus the angle from each of the reference points to the target point. You can then plot lines from your reference points at the measured angles and the intersection of the lines is your target.
In 3D the only difference is that you need to know two angles for each reference point. Usually it is the angle to the target point and reference points projected on some known reference plane, followed by the angle in a plane perpendicular to this first reference plane but in the direction of the first measured angle.
So, you can still find a point in 3D space using 2 known points of reference, you just need to get one more piece of information from each reference point.
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Goonda
Minmatar
DOMINATIO
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Posted - 2009.02.15 07:05:00 -
[74]
Edited by: Goonda on 15/02/2009 07:14:58
Originally by: Car A'Carn
The problem most people are having in understanding this is that the conventional understanding of triangulation is that you get a direction from two sources and then you follow those two directions to the intersection. The eve system works on distance not direction, and so you need at least 3 sources to get any coherent results.
Exactly, for 2D. But in 3D you need 4 sources for distance "triangulation".
Here is how it works:
Place probe 1 -> This creates a sphere with a radius equilivant to the distance to the target. Our target is somewhere on the surface of this sphere.
Place probe 2 -> This creates a new sphere with a new radius, the intersection of this new one with the old one is a circle, our target is somewhere on the circumference of this circle.
Place probe 3 -> This creates a third sphere, the intersection of this new sphere with the first two is the same as the intersection of this 3rd sphere with the circle from before. We now have two points. Our target is one of these two points.
Place probe 4 -> This creates a 4th sphere, the intersection of all four spheres is a single point, our target.
EDIT: The technical term for this is Trilateration
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Kopkiller
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Posted - 2009.02.15 08:16:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Kopkiller on 15/02/2009 08:21:09
Originally by: Hugh Ruka
Originally by: Xianthar
Triangulation works on the surface of the earth to find "stuff" because with 3 known distances you get 2 possible locations for the unknown, if the known locations are properly spread out only 1 of those 2 possible points will be on the earths surface, thus you can rule out the other.
More known distances just help to account for inaccuracies in the distance measurement method which there is always some due to various issues. For instance the GPS system has to account for the fact that time travels slower on the earths surface than it does in orbit.
cheers
triangulation on earth works only on land. since the height is given by the height of the surface, you only need to work 2 dimensions (a plane bent to form a sphere basicaly).
however it would not work underwater or in the air, as it would give an infinitely long line of possible locations :-)
You DO NOT WANT TO UNDERSTAND!
First triangulation and trilateration are two different things, so talking about triangulation here is off.
BUT if you want to be that insisting take a lesson or something, tape triangulation on google, and UNDERSTAND how it works , WITH ANGLES so we don't ****ing care about if its 2D, 3D or 4D it ALWAYS WORK! Number of dimensions does not enter in count, triangulation does not work for land only neither 2D , UNDERSTAND IT OR SHUT UP.
Edit: Did you actually know a GPS knows your altitude?
Originally by: Sophia Truthspeaker
You missed the fun part... it doesn't matter where the three points are, they ALWAYS are on a plane. That the plane isn't necessarily what we call horizontal doesn't matter. Draw a triangle on a piece of paper and start waving the paper around. No matter how oyu hold the piece of paper, you will always be able to get from two points to the third.
THIS!!
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Xianthar
STK Scientific
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.02.15 09:00:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Kopkiller
Edit: Did you actually know a GPS knows your altitude?
actually it doesn't, the gps system locates the receiver to a point in space through trilateration (apologies for my improper use of triangulation earlier). you would need to compare this point to a topo map to get your true altitude which is what "good" systems do. alternatively you can make estimates at the location of the surface based on the shape of the earth (which is not a sphere) and thus make a guess at the altitude tho its not nearly as accurate and would be similar to a barometric pressure based altimeter reading.
cheers
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Xianthar
STK Scientific
The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.02.15 09:02:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Jack Jombardo
Only 3 probes needed would be nice.
Had a scan with 7 (!) probes out last night and couldn't get a result better as 81% after nearly full probe-time :(.
this has nothing to do with the number of probes, CCP has now said multiple times that the sensor strength of some sites needs to be rebalenced thus the hard to find sites before, 10/10 plexes for example are currently impossible to find. this will be fixed later.
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Kayscha
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Posted - 2009.02.15 10:18:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Nyphur
Quadlateration. I wrote a program to do this given co-ordinates from 4 known scan points and their distances from the target back when probes weren't out. Then CCP made probes and the thing was pretty useless :S. Still nice in theory and the maths for it is very fast if you know how to do it, is the new system actually using that?
Hehe - so I wasn't the only one who thought of that. Too bad I never could solve the equation from that in a satisfactory manner (rusty maths skills), so I gave it up eventually.
Still, I was quite bummed by the current probe system when it came out, since it felt very aritficial. So while I can't seem to get the Apo client running atm, I'm really looking forward to the new system.
BTW, for those that said realism was irrelevant, only fun was: I guess for many players, fun is increased if a feature feels consistent with the credible illusion of a world that the game provides. Sure, a Peggle-style scanning minigame might be more fun per se, but the game as a whole would be lessened by it for me by its artificiality.
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Nyphur
Pillowsoft
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Posted - 2009.02.15 11:56:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Kayscha
Originally by: Nyphur
Quadlateration. I wrote a program to do this given co-ordinates from 4 known scan points and their distances from the target back when probes weren't out. Then CCP made probes and the thing was pretty useless :S. Still nice in theory and the maths for it is very fast if you know how to do it, is the new system actually using that?
Hehe - so I wasn't the only one who thought of that. Too bad I never could solve the equation from that in a satisfactory manner (rusty maths skills), so I gave it up eventually.
Me neither, I had to get some help from people on a forum to solve the equation but the solution itself calculates extremely quickly. The sad part is I got the program working fully but at the time I was only used to programming with 2D graphics packages. The result was this, a program that worked out the location in 3D but could only display it in 2D. When I tested it out, I tested it on a mission-runner who was off the system plane, so while I got spot on with the X and Y plane, I didn't see the Z plane difference. I was determined to get a version with 3D graphics working before releasing or selling the tool and before I could master that they released probes.
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Elegbara
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Posted - 2009.02.15 12:07:00 -
[80]
Edited by: Elegbara on 15/02/2009 12:07:39
Originally by: Dread Jack
An example of this in EvE would be, a wormhole (unknown point), your ship, and one probe. I'll go along with the idea that the ship itself isn't a viable scan platform and launching two probes to form the basis of your triangle is necessary. Three probes? "Math" says it can be done with two. Whatever its a game. FOUR probes is ridiculous by any standard.
Initially, you're looking for something located in 3-dimensional piece of space and can be described with 3 unknown parameters. One probe says you the range to the signature you got and limits it to sphere around that probe - now it is something 2-dimensional and we have to get only 2 more unknown parameters. Second probe tells you another range and it limits the signature location to just a circle - something one-dimensional. One unknown parameter. And the last probe turs that circle to something 0-dimensional .. but that's not 1 point, that's two points!
So far we've been decreasing number of dimensions of a certain sphere. 3-dimensional sphere is something like "whole space", 2-dimensional sphere is your usual sphere, 1-dimensional sphere is actually a circle and 0-dimensional sphere is a couple of points. 2 points, not one. So you need 4th probe to find which point of these two is actual signature.
On the other hand I'd prefered if I had an option of warping firs to one of those two, then to another.
Open your eyes.
And Awaken. |
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