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Dread Jack	Posted - 2009.02.14 08:36:00 - [1] Edited by: Dread Jack on 14/02/2009 08:40:48 You can find the location of an unknown point by forming a triangle having the unknown point and two known points as the vertices. This is triangulation. An example of this in EvE would be, a wormhole (unknown point), your ship, and one probe. I'll go along with the idea that the ship itself isn't a viable scan platform and launching two probes to form the basis of your triangle is necessary. Three probes? "Math" says it can be done with two. Whatever its a game. FOUR probes is ridiculous by any standard. What is the design idea behind needing 5 points of reference (a ship and four probes) to locate an object in 3d space? Are there balance issues I'm not considering? The biggest complaint so far with the new scanning method is how clumsy the interface is, why require us to micro-manage the kluge interface any more than needed? Ask your self, as a game designer, "Is this balanced? Is this fun? Is this as simple as possible?" if any of those answers is no, there's something wrong with your design. CCP has great ideas but hides them behind some of the worst UI I've ever struggled with.
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.02.14 08:44:00 - [2] Originally by: Dread Jack Ask your self, as a game designer, "Is this balanced? Is this fun? Is this as simple as possible?" if any of those answers is no, there's something wrong with your design. Welcome to the wonderful world of Eve. Still it is the best we have there ... yet.
Space Wanderer	Posted - 2009.02.14 08:44:00 - [3] Originally by: Dread Jack "Math" says it can be done with two. You might want to read the devs post about it, instead of complaining? If you won't, let me summarize it for you by saying that now probes report only a scalar value, i.e. the distance of the signature. If with this bit of information you can't understand why you need at least four probes to locate a spot, my suggestion is you do not speak anymore about math (especially geometry) if you don't want to look silly.
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2009.02.14 09:02:00 - [4] depends on the coordination system ... you need 3 angles and a distance reading in 3D space for an exact location. triangulation only works if you want the direction where the signal is comming from, you can judge the distance by type and signal strength, but that's not accurate.
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2009.02.14 09:03:00 - [5] Originally by: Space Wanderer Edited by: Space Wanderer on 14/02/2009 08:47:26 Originally by: Dread Jack "Math" says it can be done with two. You might want to read the devs post about it, instead of complaining? If you won't, let me summarize it for you by saying that now probes report only a scalar value, i.e. the distance of the signature. If with this bit of information you can't understand why you need at least four probes to locate a spot, my suggestion is you do not speak anymore about math (especially geometry) if you don't want to look silly. EDIT: Anyway, I tried the new system finally, I couldn't find the spot due to insufficient sig strength, but I still enjoyed the new system a lot. It is an excellent blow to all the afk-ness of scanning. It still needs some tweaks because of the low low sig strengths, the uncomfortable widgets, and the wrong allocation of scan bonuses from skills/equipment, but it really looks very very promising. if you can't get a warpable result, you need to narrow down on it, lowering the scan range of the probes increases their accuracy.
Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2009.02.14 09:06:00 - [6] Originally by: Dread Jack Edited by: Dread Jack on 14/02/2009 08:40:48 You can find the location of an unknown point by forming a triangle having the unknown point and two known points as the vertices. This is triangulation. An example of this in EvE would be, a wormhole (unknown point), your ship, and one probe. I'll go along with the idea that the ship itself isn't a viable scan platform and launching two probes to form the basis of your triangle is necessary. Three probes? "Math" says it can be done with two. Whatever its a game. FOUR probes is ridiculous by any standard. Triangulation (with 3 probes) works ONLY one one plane. If you add "depth" (or 3rd dimension) you need 4th point (probe) to get exact location.
Dread Jack	Posted - 2009.02.14 09:20:00 - [7] Edited by: Dread Jack on 14/02/2009 09:21:29 Originally by: Space Wanderer probes report only a scalar value, i.e. the distance of the signature. If the pretend technology explanation a developer invents is the reason why the UI is needlessly complicated I say change it. Originally by: Hugh Ruka triangulation only works if you want the direction where the signal is comming from This is not accurate. Originally by: Deva Blackfire Triangulation (with 3 probes) works ONLY one one plane. If you add "depth" (or 3rd dimension) you need 4th point (probe) to get exact location. Also, not accurate. Triangulation is done with 2 known points and 1 unknown point. A line is drawn in the direction of the unknown from the 2 known points. Where the lines intersect is your unknown and you can calculate distance. It works in both 2D and 3D. Triangulation isn't the point. Creating a fun, simple and balanced scanning mechanic is.
Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2009.02.14 09:37:00 - [8] Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 14/02/2009 09:43:57 Edited by: Deva Blackfire on 14/02/2009 09:42:06 But it IS fun and quite simple. Problems are: 1. interface is slow and cumbersome. There are 10000 other ways you could move probes around which would be simpler and faster at the same time 2. still lack of scatter (thus making it too easy in some cases). 3. it is almost useless for fast ship scanning. Perfect method would be: use old scanning system for ships and new for exploration. EDIT: as for triangulation: you need to know 3 points. Going by wiki (which is pretty accurate on this one): The coordinates and distance to a point can be found by calculating the length of one side of a triangle, given measurements of angles and sides of the triangle formed by that point and two other known reference points. You need to know lenght of one triangle side. Thus A-B distance, wheras A and B are probes 1 and 2. The said "measurements of angles and sides" are to give you C - thus 3rd point/probe. So all in all even if you know only 2 points and some angles/distances you can come up with 3rd location from it. And how does it differ from having 3 known probes and unknown location around them? As for 3d space you need 1 more point (tetrasomethingsomething - too long name for me to try and spell correctly ;p). EDIT2: i do have better link than wiki (with proper explanation of how it works etc) but its in Polish unfortunately, so not much of a help (tho its only equations, so if you want i can link it).
Dr Slaughter Minmatar Rabies Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.14 09:39:00 - [9] I propose a diffraction-type optical triangulation sensor based on the diffraction theorem and the laser triangulation method. The advantage of the proposed sensor is that it obtains not only the linear displacement of a moving object but also its three angular motion errors. The developed sensor is composed mainly of a laser source, two quadrant detectors, and a reflective diffraction grating. The reflective diffraction grating can reflect the incident laser beam into several diffractive rays, and two quadrant detectors were set up for detecting the position of 0- and +1-order diffraction rays. According to the optical triangulation relationship between the spatial incident angles of a laser beam and the output coordinates of two quadrant detectors, the displacement and the three angular motion errors of a moving object can be obtained simultaneously! Then we only need one probe.
Joseph Juneau	Posted - 2009.02.14 09:44:00 - [10] Yeah as previusly stated in 3d space if the info from 1 probe is only distance u need 4 probes (check how gps works, where u need at least 4 satelites in fov to be able to get ur location) However the problem about the new probing is the ship probing which got a huge nerf, previusly u were able to scan a ship down in less than 20sec, with the new system its gona take way more even with "uber micro", and since recently i only see pirate nerfs (qr made it so a hictor even with 2 sensor boosters cant lock a cruiser at the gate before it warps off, than the concord boost etc...). So my sugestion for the probing, that would make it less nerfed is that is that u could set a default distance and than launch 4 probes which would scater around ur own ship at that distance and u could move all of the probes simultanusly on the map. So if u know the possible ship location (by directional scanner) u could in few click just move the set of probes at that point and press scan. It isnt much of a change just a interface of controling the probes isnt that hellish. Also some kind of grid and maybe an option to "snap to grid" wouldnt be a bad idea eigter.

Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2009.02.14 09:44:00 - [11] Originally by: Dread Jack Triangulation isn't the point. Creating a fun, simple and balanced scanning mechanic is. That is exactly the point! Man, folks, don't be silly and argue with 'real world' comparisons in Eve. Or can you please give me a physically and mathematically correct explanation of how warp, instant communication and all fancy stuff in Eve works? IT IS FICTION!!! And please don't tell me that the immersion would be destroyed if we would have a better interface with scanning. Besides, the current scanning on TQ works with ONE probe only. So, how is that possible if we need at least 4 probes? A sudden loss of knowledge in scanning-technology? Yeah yeah. Dev techno-babble, though fancy as it might sound, can NEVER justify a crappy UI. Mind you, I do not say that the current scanning UI is altogehter crap. I just say that techno-talk cannot justify bad UI. But it is fact that the current movement system of the probes could need some ... improves. There are many suggestions in the scanning thread already, so no need to talk about it here.
Saietor Blackgreen The First Foundation	Posted - 2009.02.14 09:51:00 - [12] OP is wrong. You need 4 points akshully. The probes sense distance to the target, not the direction - thats what they show in the result of scan. Dont ask me why it is like that, welcome to Eve :) Thus, if you have 3 probes with a set of 3 distances to the anomaly form each probe, there are 2 points in space that correspond to this combination.
Miss Moonwych Formedian Shadows	Posted - 2009.02.14 09:51:00 - [13] Edited by: Miss Moonwych on 14/02/2009 09:52:36 With "normal" triangulation you measure angles. So on a plane you only need to detect the angles from 2 points to determine the location of a third point. This is even true for more dimensions: only two points needed if you can measure the direction of say the signal coming from a spacecraft. The basic idea behind it is that you have two points of a triangle and two angles, so you can finish drawing the rest of the triangle. In Eve distances are measured. Because of that if everything happens to be right on a plane you need 3 points to determine the target. But when things are not on a place - and they usually aren't - you really need 4 otherwise you will get two results. I kinda like the new system btw Will see how it pans out when they enhance the GUI somewhat and work out deviations. Regards, M.M.
Dr Slaughter Minmatar Rabies Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.14 09:52:00 - [14] Originally by: Gnulpie [ Man, folks, don't be silly and argue with 'real world' comparisons in Eve. Silly. Yes. They could use Delta-DOR and use two widely separated probes to simultaneously track a transmitting (assuming that's how we detect stuff) target signature in order to measure the time difference ('delay time') between signals arriving at the two probes. The technique of measuring this delay is named Differential One-way Range (DOR). Theoretically, the delay depends only on the positions of the two probes and the target signature source. However, in reality, the delay is affected by several sources of error: for example, the radio waves travelling through any gas clouds in the system, solar plasma, and clock instabilities between the probes and your ship. 'Real' Delta-DOR corrects these errors by 'tracking' a quasar - a fixed, highly stable quasi-stellar radio source - in a direction close to the signature for calibration. The chosen quasar's direction is already known extremely accurately by astronomical measurements, typically to better than 50 billionths of a degree (a nanoradian). In Eve I'm sure we would have fantastically accurate clocks and better tech to implement the sensors with. In principle, the delay time of the quasar is subtracted from that of the target signatures to provide the delta-DOR measurement (the Greek symbol 'delta' is commonly used to denote 'difference'). The delay is converted to distance by multiplying by the speed of light. A complication is that the quasar and target signature cannot be measured simultaneously. In practice, three scans are made: target_signature-quasar-target_signature or quasar-target_signature-quasar, and then interpolation between the first and third converts them to the same time as the second measurement, from which the delta-DOR data point is calculated.
Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2009.02.14 09:52:00 - [15] Originally by: Saietor Blackgreen OP is wrong. You need 4 points akshully. The probes sense distance to the target, not the direction - thats what they show in the result of scan. Dont ask me why it is like that, welcome to Eve :) Thus, if you have 3 probes with a set of 3 distances to the anomaly form each probe, there are 2 points in space that correspond to this combination. Actually if you use 2 probles only you will see "red rings" between em. This is the area in which signature might be (need 3rd probe to get 2 locations for same sig).
Hoshi Eviction.	Posted - 2009.02.14 09:58:00 - [16] Seems pointless to discuss triangulation considering that the scan system doesn't use triangulation in any form it uses Trilateration. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations
Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2009.02.14 10:23:00 - [17] Ahhh so thats the mathematical name for it. Thx :)
Dr Slaughter Minmatar Rabies Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.14 10:26:00 - [18] Originally by: Hoshi Seems pointless to discuss triangulation considering that the scan system doesn't use triangulation in any form it uses Trilateration. 2 probes and Delta DOR is totally the way this would work but whatever. It's very similar to trilateration but with two sensors, and a well known static point, and multiple scans. Anyway.... ~~~~ There is no parody in this thread. Honest.
Flinchey Amarr	Posted - 2009.02.14 10:27:00 - [19] ITT people who never did advanced maths in highschool (hence vector geometry) 2 points you can get magnitude and direction (and with enough trial and error, location) 3 you can get location, in 3 dimensional space 4 is wtf? i can't understand why you'd need 4.
Miss Moonwych Formedian Shadows	Posted - 2009.02.14 10:28:00 - [20] Edited by: Miss Moonwych on 14/02/2009 10:28:08 Originally by: Hoshi Seems pointless to discuss triangulation considering that the scan system doesn't use triangulation in any form it uses Trilateration. Exactly. To the devs: might be a good idea if you won't call it triangulation anymore. It causes confusion. Regards, M.M.

Dread Jack	Posted - 2009.02.14 10:34:00 - [21] Originally by: Hoshi Seems pointless to discuss triangulation considering that the scan system doesn't use triangulation in any form it uses Trilateration. I see your point and agree. It was a mistake on my part to imagine a simpler design. CCP chose to implement a more complicated mechanic, and are far beyond the design phase. Here's hoping they improve the UI for it and make it balanced for PvP use. I throw this thread to the wolves. Have at it you jackals, the point is lost on you. (k.i.s.s.)
Flinchey Amarr	Posted - 2009.02.14 10:38:00 - [22] still: Trilateration is a method for determining the intersections of three sphere surfaces given the centers and radii of the three spheres. same principal as triangulation now where's the quad come in here?
Deva Blackfire coracao ardente	Posted - 2009.02.14 10:39:00 - [23] Originally by: Flinchey still: Trilateration is a method for determining the intersections of three sphere surfaces given the centers and radii of the three spheres. same principal as triangulation now where's the quad come in here? read Hoshi's link. its on plane (2d) not 3d space
Miss Moonwych Formedian Shadows	Posted - 2009.02.14 10:45:00 - [24] Edited by: Miss Moonwych on 14/02/2009 10:46:40 Originally by: Flinchey still: Trilateration is a method for determining the intersections of three sphere surfaces given the centers and radii of the three spheres. same principal as triangulation now where's the quad come in here? If you read the wiki page about trilateration, it says: Quote: Because z is expressed as the positive or negative square root, it is possible for there to be zero, one or two solutions to the problem. And two solutions to the problem means two points. In order to bring that down to 1 you'll have to add another probe. Either that or CCP could simply allow is to warp to both points. Regards, M.M.
Ayari Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2009.02.14 11:20:00 - [25] The way I thought triangulation worked was that the two points of reference report the direction of the target, but not the range, the range to target is calculated by the intersection of two directions. This works in 3d space too, because the direction lines will always intersect at the right point. Obviously the new probe method doesn't use real triangulation. -------------------------------------- Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Bimjo Caldari Domination. Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.02.14 11:31:00 - [26] how probes work : 1 probe : scan result is a sphere around probe , wormhole can be anywhere within, reason is one probe hasn't got enough signal strength to pinpoint location. 2 probes : if their result spheres intersect we get the RRR "red result ring" , again 2 probes haven't got enough signal strength to pinpoint it 3 probes : if all three result spheres intersect we get a point in space,and 3 probes are still not strong enough to pinpoint the result accurately,remember a 500k deviation means we will be warping to the wrong grid !!! 4 probes intersecting : result ------------------------ You have to mix real life maths with game mechanics(e.g. 3 probes haven't got the electronics to pinpoint a result) otherwise we should complain why CCP based our ship movement in space on fluid dynamics and not Newtonian physics ====================
Hugh Ruka Exploratio et Industria Morispatia	Posted - 2009.02.14 11:32:00 - [27] Originally by: Ayari The way I thought triangulation worked was that the two points of reference report the direction of the target, but not the range, the range to target is calculated by the intersection of two directions. This works in 3d space too, because the direction lines will always intersect at the right point. Obviously the new probe method doesn't use real triangulation. as was said, you need 3 reference points to calculate position in 2d space. however you are scanning in 3d in EVE. --- SIG --- CSM: your support is needed !
Space Wanderer	Posted - 2009.02.14 12:24:00 - [28] Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: Space Wanderer EDIT: Anyway, I tried the new system finally, I couldn't find the spot due to insufficient sig strength, but I still enjoyed the new system a lot. It is an excellent blow to all the afk-ness of scanning. It still needs some tweaks because of the low low sig strengths, the uncomfortable widgets, and the wrong allocation of scan bonuses from skills/equipment, but it really looks very very promising. if you can't get a warpable result, you need to narrow down on it, lowering the scan range of the probes increases their accuracy. Oh, i did that, sent 7 probes with 0.25AU all around the spot, still got only an 80% sig str. Probably I got one of the hard-to-find sites.
Kopkiller	Posted - 2009.02.14 12:26:00 - [29] Edited by: Kopkiller on 14/02/2009 12:28:20 Originally by: Hugh Ruka Originally by: Ayari The way I thought triangulation worked was that the two points of reference report the direction of the target, but not the range, the range to target is calculated by the intersection of two directions. This works in 3d space too, because the direction lines will always intersect at the right point. Obviously the new probe method doesn't use real triangulation. as was said, you need 3 reference points to calculate position in 2d space. however you are scanning in 3d in EVE. Stop saying stupid things. Triangulation works by its principle indepedently of number of dimensions, or you just didn't understand how it works at school. And it's not the problem anyway, 99% of eve is not realistic "real life" wise.
achoura	Posted - 2009.02.14 12:53:00 - [30] Tri means three, quite why some bright spark thought it smart to use that prefix knowing full well that 4 probes are being use is beyond me, although any high school english/math/physics/anyone with a rudimenty education knows it's wrong, so why a designer can't get it right is just... Anyway, as the last person said, provided you have three intendant locations with ranges in both two and three dimensions (x, y, z axis ring any bells?), last time i check eve isn't running in the forth dimension Now failing of the name aside, the server already knows the location of the complex & probes so really it isn't calculating anything, it's just telling you how close you're getting so loose probe four doesn't actually do much. Just cleans up the overly cluttered/horribly unintuitive UI, makes scanning more efficient/simpler and generally improves ease of use. The only possible reason for requiring four probes i can think of is balancing i.e time sink but tbfh three probes & increased scan time would be preferable to instant scan time and appalling UI. Oh and good luck probing for ships, in it's current state by the time you've negotiated the ui, placed your "four" probes for your "triangulation" the person you were looking for has had time to make another four/five ss. Q. Since you only need three, but are launching four, technically you're adding 25% more work to the server. From a design efficiency perspective this is not a good thing so why, given the "need for speed initiative" ccp has been publicly pushing the past year, has this been chosen? *The EVE servers and their patches*



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