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Julie Thorne
14th Legion
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Posted - 2009.02.16 20:07:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Random Womble
Chimera/archon repping chimera/archon +33% effectiveness of RRed HP = effectively +33% HP repped +33% effectiveness of local repped HP
But basicly you are right - the resistance bonus is just too powerful compared to the Thanny's damage or the Nid's RR bonus. I think the carriers would be much more balanced if the Chimera/Archon had a rep bonus (better local tank but less EHP and worse RR tank). It wouldn't help the Nid though cause it would be primaried anyway.
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Random Womble
Minmatar Master Miners Electric Monkey Overlords
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Posted - 2009.02.16 20:29:00 -
[62]
Edited by: Random Womble on 16/02/2009 20:30:51
Originally by: Julie Thorne
Originally by: Random Womble
Chimera/archon repping chimera/archon +33% effectiveness of RRed HP = effectively +33% HP repped +33% effectiveness of local repped HP
But basicly you are right - the resistance bonus is just too powerful compared to the Thanny's damage or the Nid's RR bonus. I think the carriers would be much more balanced if the Chimera/Archon had a rep bonus (better local tank but less EHP and worse RR tank). It wouldn't help the Nid though cause it would be primaried anyway.
yea sorry i stand correct my brain was failing me but thanks for boosting my point even more
Edit: i forgot to mention on my first post that even if archon/chimera had same base armor and shield as nid they would also rather obviously get even more base EHP assume we take carrier skill into account so another reason why restances > rr bonus
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Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.16 20:36:00 -
[63]
More like : The official whine Matar Thread
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Pac SubCom
A.W.M
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Posted - 2009.02.16 20:44:00 -
[64]
Without damage types and resists, all dps comparisons are fruitless. This thread is hot air like the million other boost Matar threads.
When asked about the Tempest's dps, what did the devs say?
"MIND THE FECKING RESISTS!"
And complaining about artillery and Minmatar recons at the same time must be a joke.
--------------- ∞ TQFE
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.02.16 21:01:00 -
[65]
Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 16/02/2009 21:01:39
Originally by: Riaz Qaadir A lot of exaggerations from both sides here, but then you donÆt get anything by saying ôwe need small tweaksö, got to make things sound world ending (am I right 2008 amarr bros?). Got 5 mins to kill so hereÆs my takeà
Typhoon û ItÆs okay, its EFT stats are pretty good but hard to get in game (speaking as player who has a char specÆd for full t2 Typhoon). Torps only have 20km range, lose damage on anything thatÆs moving slightly and thatÆs smaller than 450 (huge battleship ie. rokh). ACÆs have rubbish base damage with the ROF bonus with no damage mods and lose damage from less range than blasters, itÆs the drone bay that rescues its damage. As far as its tank, only option is passive armour because it has rubbish armour HP, has more shield HP ffs, never mind trying to fit an active tank.
Tempest û ItÆs below average at everything, something always does it better. ACÆs with ROF and DMG bonus with no damage mods only give around same DPS per weapon as a Siege launcher with no bonuses. With only 6 lows youÆre limited in how much you can increase that damage without making it a tin can tank. Sniping, your dps is ok but your range is worst, tracking is worst, and once you reload dps is worst. Why use the lowest range, worst tracking, lowest dps sniper?
Maelstrom û ACÆs damage isnÆt bad here compared to ACÆs on Pest/Typhoon because you shield tank so always can fit 3 gyroÆs. Only problem I have is same as with Cyclone/Sleipnir/Claymore, bonus is best solo/tinygang yet to do solo/tinygang you need to tackle but that takes the same slots as your tank modsà oxymoron tank bonus.
Cane û Fine when fit/used correctly. Cyclone û Apart from bonus (see above) an extra turret is needed.
Sleipnir/Claymore û Fine apart from bonus.
Vagabond û It was never a damage dealer compared to other races (sure EFT peak is nice but thatÆs at like 2km), was always the ôit can run awayö factor that made people like it in a world of blobbing. 4 mids on a shield tanker doesnÆt give you many options, a bit more base HP wouldnÆt hurt since its survivability is reduced (especially with warp scrams switching mwd off).
Muninn û Suffers how most arty ships suffer except poor tracking is fixed by tracking bonus just leaving poor range/dps compared to other options. No real tanking options with 3 mids and 5 lows with two huge armour resistance holes. 2 misc highs are pretty pointless when sniping.
Recons û Yeah they arenÆt as good due to web changes. Thing is reducing web performance has increased the effect of TPÆs. Rapier can sort of fit a 4 slot armour tank hence fit webs and TPÆs but Huginn with 3 lows is pretty poor, especially with missile changes. 1 low and cloaking vs 3 missilesà IÆll take Rapier everytime now. Change Huginn so its webbing performance is better by replacing TP bonus with web effectiveness bonus.
Inties û Stilleto is fine at its tackling job. ClawÆs cpu and targeting range are rubbish. Never mind its mass is stupidly heavy for a minny ship leaving it very ungainly for a minny ship (but base speed compensates to give good mwd speed).
AF û EveryoneÆs old favourite argument with the backwards bonuses. Either way could use more pg for arty setups, even 250s limit choices drastically with the usual minny arty issues (tracking/range/dps).
Minnie doesn't sound that bad from this assessment that I fully agree with.
Things to fix:
-split weapon system on Nag makes it garbage -Tracking Comps need to increase falloff too, or at least have a falloff script -Fix arty's by either: --Increasing clip size --Adding 'subsystem' damage as they mentioned ages ago --fangle with the gun's ranges/tracking --or a straight up damage bonus to make up for the HP boost that was also ages ago ----------------- Friends Forever |
Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.16 21:06:00 -
[66]
I know what to do : change all bonuses to 10% more stats in EFT /lvl ,so these "matars" can finally get what they want. Problem solved
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.02.16 21:12:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 16/02/2009 21:12:23
Originally by: Random Womble
Originally by: Kagura Nikon I am minmatar and must say a few poitns a pure bull312#!@#!@
Arties have MORE dps than rail! Their only real issues are very limited range and the very small clip. Solve the clip issue and all is ok.
Typhoon is the BS can can field more tank and gank at same time. No other battleship can dish 900 dps with 7 SLOT TANK!
The recons and capitals although really need some love.
To get just under 900 dps with no damage mods fitted and max skill on a typhoon you have to fit 4 torp launchers 4 800mm autos and 5 ogre IIs using Rep Fleet EMP and CN Torps then you have just over 1000 PG to fit all your other slots oh and you will need a target painter to even get full damage on BS . However a mega will do around the same DPS with no fittings using neutrons with CN anti and 5xOgre II and have 4500 PG left for the rest of its fittings (same mids and lows) along with a spare high slot.
The Neutrons on the mega will have better tracking than the autos on the phoon and because of the tiny range of torps even with max skills you will probably want to stay within 15kms of your target minimum with the phoon so the range wont be too diffrent.
Add in mega has more base EHP and more base armor and finally you will need around 7mil more SP to get those stats with the typhoon due to the missile skills and things really dont look to good
Alternatively if you want to look at tier 1 BS we could use the geddon instead of mega yes it does about 50 less DPS but then it can outrange a torp phoon it does admittedly have some cap issues and slot layout is -1 med +1 low but it also still uses 7mil less SP and the typhoons extra med is going to have to have TP anyway and DPS can be added by making that extra low slot a heat sink then geddon does more dps than phoon and still has more PG left to fit tanking mods.
And since we are talking about tier 1 ships here we should be asking why on earth the first level of battleships for minmatar should require so many skillpoints to be even semi effective.
Well, if you're dishing out whatifs, how about I fit an AB and Tracking Disrupter on my phoon. All of a sudden neither the geddon or mega could track the phoon within web range if it had even a minor nano.
The phoon could be going somewhere around 200-300m/s in <10km orbit while a tracking disrupterII is dishing out about -50% to tracking. That'd do the trick.
Unsure how they could counter it unless they had a tracking computer OR a 2nd web, both of which is unlikely. ----------------- Friends Forever |
Deathnail
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Posted - 2009.02.16 21:12:00 -
[68]
I know, just boost em resist to all ships.
Sorry joking. I just love how the most virulent opponents of boosting matar are Amarr and thought that I would at least point out that the OP flies most ships/races. Personally I fly pure Amarr and think things are balanced (except falcons obviously). Especially BC - I would fly any races at this point. Cheap DPS. Capitals - I only have 30mil sp and none of it wasted in them so far.
Ok seriously -
I see the whole rapierr/huggin being dual nerfed a bit much. But while you are fixing that would you mind giving my pilgrim range bonuses to neuts?
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Graalum
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.16 23:18:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Absalom Marathon Minnie need love with one thing sub cap and that's the battleships. Or rather, the large artillery. Other than that I think they're good. Perhaps not FOTM any more but they are good enough.
artillery suck for top to bottom, not just for battleships.
adjusting artillery would really fix about all minmatar's problems, since most of their ships problems tend to center around arty ships (mininn, tempest, mael)
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Random Womble
Minmatar Master Miners Electric Monkey Overlords
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Posted - 2009.02.16 23:28:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Random Womble on 16/02/2009 23:28:43
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Edited by: Haniblecter Teg on 16/02/2009 21:12:23
Originally by: Random Womble
Originally by: Kagura Nikon
Well, if you're dishing out whatifs, how about I fit an AB and Tracking Disrupter on my phoon. All of a sudden neither the geddon or mega could track the phoon within web range if it had even a minor nano.
The phoon could be going somewhere around 200-300m/s in <10km orbit while a tracking disrupterII is dishing out about -50% to tracking. That'd do the trick.
Unsure how they could counter it unless they had a tracking computer OR a 2nd web, both of which is unlikely.
I was just replying to his stament about the damage and showing that there other ships that can do the same damage with less drawbacks. Plus if we did some more theory work on your setup and your using torps then you have got a 1 mid free for point (going to assume you would use scram since no way to stop people burning away otherwise. Now your left with 1 plate and some hardeners/damage mods in the lows or even speed mods if you wish, now it could work against that mega tho i suspect he would still be able to hit you a bit even with the disrupt and noce you come against anything spewing missiles or just not using BS weapons your screwed.
Admittedly this is all theory but my point was the theoretical DPS arguement for a typhoon does not work too well, if you fit it with all damage mods you can get alot of DPS but you will be like a wet paper bag (admittedly a pure DPS phoon with shield tank is one of my favourite setups on sisi but it does not work on TQ and normally dies on sisi).
Hell a domi with 6 ions + 5 ogre IIs does more DPS than the typhoon, does not need a painter and has an extra med slot.
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SickSeven
The Undead Righteous Knights
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Posted - 2009.02.16 23:39:00 -
[71]
The problem with minmatar is not usually in the ships themselves but the equipment required.
AC's could still use a tad of CCP lovin, and Artillery needs a huge Alpha and clipsize boost.
CCP just needs to find a way to make all the extra crosstraining that is required to fly the full spectrum of minmatar ships, actually worth it.
The Tyhpoon needs to moved to the Tier 2 battleship and the Tempest to the Tier 1 battleship. That would actually make sense.
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Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.02.17 00:13:00 -
[72]
Gotchya (to poster above) ----------------- Friends Forever |
techzer0
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.02.17 00:20:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Lasran Tekeal
Originally by: Kagura Nikon I am minmatar and must say a few poitns a pure bull312#!@#!@
Arties have MORE dps than rail! Their only real issues are very limited range and the very small clip. Solve the clip issue and all is ok.
Typhoon is the BS can can field more tank and gank at same time. No other battleship can dish 900 dps with 7 SLOT TANK!
THe recons and capitals although really need some love.
Stop posting this bull****, the amount of training it takes to even fit the typhoon not to mention get the weapons to do that much damage is ******ed.
GTFO AND TRAIN ANOTHER RACE
Minmatar are supposed to be the hardest to train. ------------
Originally by: Nexus Kinnon I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>
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Lasran Tekeal
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Posted - 2009.02.17 03:46:00 -
[74]
Originally by: techzer0
Originally by: Lasran Tekeal
Originally by: Kagura Nikon I am minmatar and must say a few poitns a pure bull312#!@#!@
Arties have MORE dps than rail! Their only real issues are very limited range and the very small clip. Solve the clip issue and all is ok.
Typhoon is the BS can can field more tank and gank at same time. No other battleship can dish 900 dps with 7 SLOT TANK!
THe recons and capitals although really need some love.
Where is it written in stone that minmatar are "supposed to be hard to train". Also just because i pointed out one terribad battleship takes over a year to make it decent that means i think minmatar are hard to train? I don't think that btw i just hate the phoon, i actually do fly the other 2 BS's.
Stop posting this bull****, the amount of training it takes to even fit the typhoon not to mention get the weapons to do that much damage is ******ed.
GTFO AND TRAIN ANOTHER RACE
Minmatar are supposed to be the hardest to train.
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