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Freighter Jjoe
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Posted - 2009.02.14 20:12:00 -
[1]
Seriously - they are not gimped but do need a little bit of love as compared to the other races.
First - I have 3 PvP main characters that range from 28mil to 75mil. I fly all races, and all ships except HIC's I have not seemed to train yet on any for some reason. Maybe its because I live in 0.0 and dont like the slowboat approach to dictoring.
Anyway - with the recent changes Matar is feeling a little gimped and here is a summary of my belief why:
Capitals - seriously *&^% you ccp. You make us train extra skills for dread and our carrier is sub par if no the worse.
Battleships - Matar has 3 of the most mediocre BS in the game. Typhoon cannot have dps and tank. Arty layouts do significantly lower dps then their counterparts in other races. Really I have stopped flying Matar BS in favor of my Amarr BS which frankly are rather nice atm. I alwasys like the DOMI and the Raven I find extremely versatile. Matar leaves me nothing I really WANT to fly as a BS.
BC - here is where the Matar actually do ok. I think the Cane is a good ship although it is easily outdamaged and out tanked by other offerings. In comparrison, Harbinger is awesome dps and range, Drake can be great tank and useful dps if you know how to load it out, and Brutix is king of dps and very cheap. So Matar holds it sown here but I would not say it is number 1 by any means or length.
Command - ok this is the one ship that I think Matar has some of the nicest offerings. That or Amarr tbh. I would say Gallente need a small boost here. I like the vulture too.
HAC - Vaga is still fastest but cannot really speed tank anymore. Really I find myself preferring cerb or Zel these days. Munin is good as a sniper, but beam zel and long range cerb generally better. I would say Matar is ok here.
Recon - PLEASE. Rapier and Huggin are just lame now. They really depended on speed tank. And if taking that away from them was not enough CCP nerfed webs making these ships even less useful. Maybe give them a bonus to web effectiveness? Just a slight one ???
In comparrison, Falcon is OP - we all get it. I can jam 3-4 tagets consistantly with one. Curse is still fun and does its job though it too with the speed nerf is more frail. Arazu and Lach are more useful now and likely you have noticed one locking you down recently.
Interceptors - funny you would think Matar would excel here but not really. Meh dps but I do like the 4 slot stilleto for tackling.
AF - Ok I actually like the Jaguar.
t1 cruisers - dont really fly much anymore but my favorites are arbitrator and vexor, and rax I guess.
t1 frigates - shuttles with dps I guess.
CCP - a little love for our chewing gum and tape race please.
Fix Matarr Recons and BS as a start. And while you are at it - a little love for Gallente Command SHips even though I will not fly em -
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LadyLubU2
Caldari
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Posted - 2009.02.14 20:17:00 -
[2]
Edited by: LadyLubU2 on 14/02/2009 20:17:24 I agree. Minnie do need some love, mostly in the arty department..
And in before NightmareX (because LOL UR A NOOB IF U DONT LIKES TEMPEST!!!) ---
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Lisento Slaven
The Drekla Consortium
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Posted - 2009.02.14 20:28:00 -
[3]
You honestly do not think the Typhoon and Maelstrom are good? Like...seriously...you do not think they are good? What are you talking about?
Capitals they have always been gimped that is for sure. With battleships they have 2 good out of 3 and that is not bad at all. The tempest is...definitely awkward with the phoon and maelstrom in existence though.
BC I still do not like the Cyclone and never have. But they aren't bad. Command are fine. The Muninn could use a little re-thinking but not much. Vagabond still functions just fine. The recon lineup isn't spammed as crazy as it was before but it is still very useful although the tank has been nerfed. I'm slightly surprised there have not been many re-thinks on how to tank them even on the forums with the EFT junkies.
Small ships and T1 seem fine to me.
What do you want them to fix about the battleships anyways? The problems with artillery are with artillery across the board, not just battleship size. So that is not a good reason. Artillery needs to be fixed on its own level and then tweaked at appropriate sizes. The Maelstrom and Typhoon are awesome close range "I'm gonna eat you" ships. ---
Put in space whales!
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Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis Mean Coalition
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Posted - 2009.02.14 20:32:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Freighter Jjoe Capitals - seriously *&^% you ccp. You make us train extra skills for dread and our carrier is sub par if no the worse.
Best fleet carrier, due to a great bonus.
Quote: Typhoon cannot have dps and tank.
Typhoon can get a 7 slot tank and nearly push 1K DPS. With skills it is probably one of the best close range BSes in the game.
Quote: I alwasys like the DOMI and the Raven I find extremely versatile. Matar leaves me nothing I really WANT to fly as a BS.
Honestly, the Typhoon is more versatile than a Domi. Guns, Missiles, Drones, Neuts or RR take your pick.
Quote: HAC - Vaga is still fastest but cannot really speed tank anymore. Really I find myself preferring cerb or Zel these days. Munin is good as a sniper, but beam zel and long range cerb generally better. I would say Matar is ok here.
The Cerb/Zealot really don't compare well to the Vagabond, they don't fill the same purpose. Munin is pretty terrible however.
Quote: Recon - PLEASE. Rapier and Huggin are just lame now. They really depended on speed tank. And if taking that away from them was not enough CCP nerfed webs making these ships even less useful. Maybe give them a bonus to web effectiveness? Just a slight one ???
Speed tanking is easy when you can web things from 40km away. The Web nerf does suck, but these ships are far from being useless. A target painter or two in a gang is always a good idea and they have a nice bonus to that as well.
Quote: In comparrison, Falcon is OP - we all get it. I can jam 3-4 tagets consistantly with one.
Wouldn't be a proper post without a falcon whine. Not sure how this comes into boost Matari though...
Quote: Interceptors - funny you would think Matar would excel here but not really. Meh dps but I do like the 4 slot stilleto for tackling.
Well Interceptors and DPS are not really meant to be mentioned in the same breath. The Claw can make a decent dogfighting interceptor, though its locking range woes prevent it from excelling elsewhere
4 mid slots and a warp disruptor bonus makes the Stilleto VERY nice, perhaps one of the best tackling interceptors around. *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE Black Legion.
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Posted - 2009.02.14 20:54:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Artemis Rose The Cerb/Zealot really don't compare well to the Vagabond, they don't fill the same purpose. Munin is pretty terrible however.
Speed tanking is easy when you can web things from 40km away. The Web nerf does suck, but these ships are far from being useless. A target painter or two in a gang is always a good idea and they have a nice bonus to that as well.
Agree with most you said, but these 2 above.. no. Muninn is good, just not utilized in a proper way. It needs range, it needs space, and it needs alot of mobility. If you're a roaming HAC gang, this ship is great against blobbing defenders. Think pre-nano-nerf style fighting.
As for the Rapier, in the case you talk about, you assume it has the ability to stay at 40km. Well, it's a force recon, it's best used in small gangs. In that kind of gang the Rapier is the natural tackler. Pure combat recon gang for example, the natural tackler is ofc the Arazu. Second to it tho, is the Rapier. As it is right now the Rapier is paper thin and can't pin things down for a gang to support it, as most things will rip that Rapier apart and them warp off before the rest even lands. It could use some survivability boost. Not to mention that a dual web with a 24km disruptor today means the Rapier will die to any ship that has MWD fitted.. so you want it to go web at <9km while scrambling? Or permarun mwd while webbing at 20-24km?
The simple solution to the Rapier is to never tackle with it and only run in bigger gangs, but as I said, then the Huginn is actually a good option. Or, ironicly, the Muninn.
I fly all sub-bs minmatar with my alts, not particulary happy with the Rapier as it is, as for the rest (all frig- and bc hull, and all cruisers bar that one combat recon - but it's a necessity as force recons can't compare) I think minmatar is good.
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Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis Mean Coalition
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Posted - 2009.02.14 21:13:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Misanth As for the Rapier, in the case you talk about, you assume it has the ability to stay at 40km. Well, it's a force recon, it's best used in small gangs. In that kind of gang the Rapier is the natural tackler. Pure combat recon gang for example, the natural tackler is ofc the Arazu. Second to it tho, is the Rapier. As it is right now the Rapier is paper thin and can't pin things down for a gang to support it, as most things will rip that Rapier apart and them warp off before the rest even lands. It could use some survivability boost. Not to mention that a dual web with a 24km disruptor today means the Rapier will die to any ship that has MWD fitted.. so you want it to go web at <9km while scrambling? Or permarun mwd while webbing at 20-24km?
I don't quite follow how the Rapier would die to an MWD ship, not even a dual webbed interceptor could catch a MWDing Rapier.
Yeah, I'd say a Rapier would have be in a bigger gang. A role I think it shines in is just webbing and target painting and letting other ships handle pointing. You'll be giving a sizable boost to tracking and damage by dual webbing and target painting targets.
The Munin in my eyes really only has its place using Artilley, and I think there are better 60-100km HAC snipers out there. If you want ACs + armor tank, the Fleet Issue Stabber is really where its at in my opinion. *** Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2 WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
The Djego
Minmatar merovinger inc
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Posted - 2009.02.14 21:39:00 -
[7]
In my Opinion:
1. Artilery, DPS and Range sucks and the Alpha isnŠt good enught to compensate(also the small Clips are just pain). Dubble Clipsize and higher Alpha(and a little bit more DPS) in my Optinion.
2. Tempest, not realy shure, 7. Turret, bigger Damage Bonus, more Dronebay(not actualy Bandwide but Dronebay to become more flexible). It not needs all of this but something more than it got now. Also better lock Range, serious it is the main Mini Sniper BS with a terrible base Lockrange to begin with.
3. Huggin/Rapier, now lack the stopingpower(what makes it actualy quite easy to take them down solo combined with her lower speed).
---- Nerf Tank - Boost Gank!
Originally by: Amantus Real men don't need to get into blaster range.
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Psiri
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Posted - 2009.02.14 21:41:00 -
[8]
OP is a numbnut, disregarding T1 frigates as 'shuttles with DPS' just goes to show this. Minmatar is strong overall but really shines sub-cruiser IMO, as for their Recons yes they are a bit weak but we ain't exactly seeing alot of Gallente recons either.
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NightmareX
Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.02.14 22:24:00 -
[9]
Edited by: NightmareX on 14/02/2009 22:26:28
Originally by: LadyLubU2 Edited by: LadyLubU2 on 14/02/2009 20:17:24 I agree. Minnie do need some love, mostly in the arty department..
And in before NightmareX (because LOL UR A NOOB IF U DONT LIKES TEMPEST!!!)
I'm not saying your a noob if you don't like the Tempest. I'm only saying your a noob if you think the close range fitted Tempest is crap, because it's not crap, at all.
Seriously, the Autocannon Tempest is totally FINE.
Those who say it is crap are either pretty crap at flying the ship, or they are using an UBERSUPERDUPERFAILFAILFAIL setup on the ship.
But i'm not gonna say anything about the other Minmatar ships, because those ships is not my strong part in EVE.
Check out my new flash web page: Dark Paradise |
Deschenus Maximus
Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2009.02.14 22:29:00 -
[10]
-Typhoon's a good ship, but it'd be nice if you concentrate on a single weapon system. -I like the theory behind the Pest's design, but because large ACs don't do much damage, its true potential isn't fully reached. -Mael's alright in theory, but active shield tanking has such a limited niche that it would be better off with a different bonus. Optimal bonus would be nice so Matari could actually compete with Amarr and Caldari in snipefests (though lolArty amirite?) -Vaga's still awesome. Sold both my Zealots but I can't let go of my crazy dragon ship. -Huginn could use a web strength bonus instead of missile damage bonus. That would make it better than the Rapier in some areas, while the Rapier would still be very useful thanks to the cloak.
In summary, boost ACs, boost Arties, boost Huginn.
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yrknat
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Posted - 2009.02.14 22:35:00 -
[11]
tbh, just take fusion ammo (tied in second for damage with plasma), give it the same total damage as multifreq & antimatter. all it would take.
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Sarkiss
SniggWaffe
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Posted - 2009.02.14 22:40:00 -
[12]
t1 cruisers - Rupture is a monster t1 frigates - Rifter is also a monter.
and the cyclone is a sex bomb. nuff said
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Raniss
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Posted - 2009.02.14 23:27:00 -
[13]
Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 14/02/2009 22:26:28
Originally by: LadyLubU2 Edited by: LadyLubU2 on 14/02/2009 20:17:24 I agree. Minnie do need some love, mostly in the arty department..
And in before NightmareX (because LOL UR A NOOB IF U DONT LIKES TEMPEST!!!)
I'm not saying your a noob if you don't like the Tempest. I'm only saying your a noob if you think the close range fitted Tempest is crap, because it's not crap, at all.
Seriously, the Autocannon Tempest is totally FINE.
Those who say it is crap are either pretty crap at flying the ship, or they are using an UBERSUPERDUPERFAILFAILFAIL setup on the ship.
But i'm not gonna say anything about the other Minmatar ships, because those ships is not my strong part in EVE.
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TimMc
Gallente Extradition
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Posted - 2009.02.14 23:34:00 -
[14]
Artillery, Dread and BS are only problems for Minmatar. Else they are great.
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Deathnail
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Posted - 2009.02.14 23:35:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Deschenus Maximus -Typhoon's a good ship, but it'd be nice if you concentrate on a single weapon system. -I like the theory behind the Pest's design, but because large ACs don't do much damage, its true potential isn't fully reached. -Mael's alright in theory, but active shield tanking has such a limited niche that it would be better off with a different bonus. Optimal bonus would be nice so Matari could actually compete with Amarr and Caldari in snipefests (though lolArty amirite?) -Vaga's still awesome. Sold both my Zealots but I can't let go of my crazy dragon ship. -Huginn could use a web strength bonus instead of missile damage bonus. That would make it better than the Rapier in some areas, while the Rapier would still be very useful thanks to the cloak.
In summary, boost ACs, boost Arties, boost Huginn.
^^ This (and boost Rapier). Munin needs a little something even as a snipe hac, but boosting Arties would do that.
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Lasran Tekeal
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Posted - 2009.02.14 23:43:00 -
[16]
Mael and tempest are solid ships. but the phoon is ****ty. "Bu bu but it can be one of the best" i hear you cry, well yes it can be but only if you have all level 5 fitting, armour and gunnery skills, it needs to be fixed because atm its not nearly worth the training time for what you get out of it. |
Cheshire Katt
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Posted - 2009.02.14 23:44:00 -
[17]
Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 14/02/2009 22:26:28
Originally by: LadyLubU2 Edited by: LadyLubU2 on 14/02/2009 20:17:24 I agree. Minnie do need some love, mostly in the arty department..
And in before NightmareX (because LOL UR A NOOB IF U DONT LIKES TEMPEST!!!)
I'm not saying your a noob if you don't like the Tempest. I'm only saying your a noob if you think the close range fitted Tempest is crap, because it's not crap, at all.
Seriously, the Autocannon Tempest is totally FINE.
Those who say it is crap are either pretty crap at flying the ship, or they are using an UBERSUPERDUPERFAILFAILFAIL setup on the ship.
But i'm not gonna say anything about the other Minmatar ships, because those ships is not my strong part in EVE.
Serious question.
Could you please share this fit for the Tempest? I'm just about able to fit T2 ACs so I will finally be able to entirely T2 fit the Temp and would love to get a good close range setup.
Thanks!
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Deschenus Maximus
Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2009.02.14 23:47:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Deschenus Maximus on 14/02/2009 23:48:31
Originally by: Deathnail
Originally by: Deschenus Maximus -Typhoon's a good ship, but it'd be nice if you concentrate on a single weapon system. -I like the theory behind the Pest's design, but because large ACs don't do much damage, its true potential isn't fully reached. -Mael's alright in theory, but active shield tanking has such a limited niche that it would be better off with a different bonus. Optimal bonus would be nice so Matari could actually compete with Amarr and Caldari in snipefests (though lolArty amirite?) -Vaga's still awesome. Sold both my Zealots but I can't let go of my crazy dragon ship. -Huginn could use a web strength bonus instead of missile damage bonus. That would make it better than the Rapier in some areas, while the Rapier would still be very useful thanks to the cloak.
In summary, boost ACs, boost Arties, boost Huginn.
^^ This (and boost Rapier). Munin needs a little something even as a snipe hac, but boosting Arties would do that.
Woops, forgot the Muninn... thx.
Edit: I'm such a failboat at quoting.
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Bernard Bolzano
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Posted - 2009.02.14 23:53:00 -
[19]
i am all with the minmatar here. why does my 8high/5mids/6low Tempest not outdamage/tank/ewar the 8high/3mid/8low geddon ????
unfair i say!
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yrknat
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Posted - 2009.02.14 23:57:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Cheshire Katt
Serious question.
Could you please share this fit for the Tempest? I'm just about able to fit T2 ACs so I will finally be able to entirely T2 fit the Temp and would love to get a good close range setup.
Thanks!
pretty sure its the standard plate AC pest with a multispec ecm in the 5th mid. id rather use eccm, TD, second web, a 9km scram, sensor booster instead but watever.
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techzer0
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.02.15 00:15:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Artemis Rose
Originally by: Misanth As for the Rapier, in the case you talk about, you assume it has the ability to stay at 40km. Well, it's a force recon, it's best used in small gangs. In that kind of gang the Rapier is the natural tackler. Pure combat recon gang for example, the natural tackler is ofc the Arazu. Second to it tho, is the Rapier. As it is right now the Rapier is paper thin and can't pin things down for a gang to support it, as most things will rip that Rapier apart and them warp off before the rest even lands. It could use some survivability boost. Not to mention that a dual web with a 24km disruptor today means the Rapier will die to any ship that has MWD fitted.. so you want it to go web at <9km while scrambling? Or permarun mwd while webbing at 20-24km?
I don't quite follow how the Rapier would die to an MWD ship, not even a dual webbed interceptor could catch a MWDing Rapier.
Yeah, I'd say a Rapier would have be in a bigger gang. A role I think it shines in is just webbing and target painting and letting other ships handle pointing. You'll be giving a sizable boost to tracking and damage by dual webbing and target painting targets.
The Munin in my eyes really only has its place using Artilley, and I think there are better 60-100km HAC snipers out there. If you want ACs + armor tank, the Fleet Issue Stabber is really where its at in my opinion.
I used to MWD-Gank Rapiers all the time with my Vagabond before the nano-nerf. I'm pretty sure I can still do it, only need point long enough to get through most Rapiers' 7k effective hit points (one LSE) ------------
Originally by: Nexus Kinnon I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>
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Corstaad
Minmatar Vardr ok Lidskjalv
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Posted - 2009.02.15 00:23:00 -
[22]
Believe what yah want but Minny BS's are average at best. The real secret is how the tempest experts have found ways to not to get on killboards. Sorry but this isn't early 2007. I
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techzer0
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.02.15 00:33:00 -
[23]
Signing in to say I think minmatar are somewhat underrated and still tons of win. I think they could use some improvement on things that were recently nerfed, but nothing sticks out as game breaking to me as a minmatar pilot (on all three accounts)
I don't like my Rapier/Huginn a whole lot anymore since they have a hard time keeping something pinned without 3 webs, which pretty much means no more solo setups (and by that I mean crawling back to gate dual webbed is f-ing easy. had a sleipnir webbed 5x and he still made it to gate 4-5 times, no problem...)
I still fly my Vaga, I like the battleships though I would love a bit more DPS from the autopest. Maelstrom is my favorite small non-RR gang damage dealer... I still like the phoon, I just see too many improper setups for it, and my missile skills are sub-par.
I don't know about caps, but I do know they go down hard... yay weakest link.
BC's if you say Brutix is king of DPS ya dunno my Cane setup, Brutix is only king on EFT but getting it into range and actually hitting for the amounts of DPS EFT tells you is a different story. I get Explo damage and near 650-700 dps out of a gank cane, put projectile ambits on it and it throws RF EMP a good distance too. Cyclone has it's place, I fly it for lols... but same with the ferox here
T1 cruisers - you don't even mention the stabber or rupture, probably two of the most common super cheap pirate ships.
T1 frigs - you fail, Rifter and Vigil are win. And yes I have kills to prove this.
Meh... poorly written attempt at getting attention for the hardest race to train and fly. I could pick it apart more, but not really in the mood. \o/ ------------
Originally by: Nexus Kinnon I could outgay you even without my pink tutu. >.>
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ZigZag Joe
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.15 03:20:00 -
[24]
Originally by: TimMc Artillery, Dread and BS are only problems for Minmatar. Else they are great.
This is pretty much it.
Phoon can do some sick damage, and is good as it is (though another missile slot would be sweet); however large projectiles blow chunks damage-wise (tempest, mael), the dread is a laughingstock, and arty is poor all-around. Some of the cruisers (rapier/huggin, vaga mayhaps) could do with small changes but they are at least functional.
And yes, the Cyclone/Sleipnir are sex bombs. <3
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Spaztick
Canadian Imperial Armaments Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2009.02.15 03:28:00 -
[25]
I think the only "real" problem right now is artillery, most everything else is pretty good and balanced against the other races (although I think the Amarr tracking buff nullified our advantage in turrets, really now that was just crazy).
And the dread, you can go with a comparable buffer and better sustained tank (yay?) with horrid damage with an armor tank, or you can slap on a shield tank and have sub par damage still. I'd rather see more CPU on the dread to let a shield tank happen without double co-procs, take away powergrid and there you go, a Matari-styled ship with some decent damage. And after all this time, I finally removed that annoying sentence in my signature.
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Reatu Krentor
Minmatar Duragon Pioneer Group GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.15 03:31:00 -
[26]
Originally by: NightmareX Edited by: NightmareX on 14/02/2009 22:26:28
Originally by: LadyLubU2 Edited by: LadyLubU2 on 14/02/2009 20:17:24 I agree. Minnie do need some love, mostly in the arty department..
And in before NightmareX (because LOL UR A NOOB IF U DONT LIKES TEMPEST!!!)
I'm not saying your a noob if you don't like the Tempest. I'm only saying your a noob if you think the close range fitted Tempest is crap, because it's not crap, at all.
Seriously, the Autocannon Tempest is totally FINE.
Those who say it is crap are either pretty crap at flying the ship, or they are using an UBERSUPERDUPERFAILFAILFAIL setup on the ship.
But i'm not gonna say anything about the other Minmatar ships, because those ships is not my strong part in EVE.
I wouldn't say tempest is bad. Just that x is better for X and y is better for Y while z is better for 2. a ship that tries to do xyz just doesn't seem to fit in most pvp trends today(which is a shame). -- stuff -- |
Psiri
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Posted - 2009.02.15 03:40:00 -
[27]
What's the problem with AC's? Would you trade them versus blasters or torps, I sure wouldn't.
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Fire Ants
The Greater Goon Clockwork Pineapple
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Posted - 2009.02.15 05:18:00 -
[28]
I have yet to find a single ship in this game that someone hasn't already complained about at great length.
That's why I pick my ships based purely on their appearance and then do my best to not totally suck in them.
Seriously, I'm gonna be all up in the Loki, split weapons and all. ----- Internet Spaceships perfectly strikes your Sense of Humor, wrecking for Serious Business. ----- |
NoNah
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Posted - 2009.02.15 05:39:00 -
[29]
Originally by: TimMc Artillery, Dread and BS are only problems for Minmatar. Else they are great.
This.
I could even agree to assigning the claw +2km locking range. There's something wrong with a ceptor that can't use a t2 warp disruptor. Other than that they're plenty of fine. Parrots, commence!
Postcount: 354465
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Absalom Marathon
Incarnation of Evil
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Posted - 2009.02.15 05:42:00 -
[30]
Minnie need love with one thing sub cap and that's the battleships. Or rather, the large artillery. Other than that I think they're good. Perhaps not FOTM any more but they are good enough.
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