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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 5 post(s) |
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CCP Guard
C C P C C P Alliance
4228
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Posted - 2013.09.30 16:56:00 -
[1] - Quote
In Rubicon, our upcoming winter expansion, the certificate system is getting a complete makeover!
CCP Ytterbium explains the details in his new dev blog. Please leave your feedback! CCP Guard | EVE Community Developer |-á@ccp_guard |
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Bubanni
ElitistOps Pandemic Legion
778
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Posted - 2013.09.30 17:02:00 -
[2] - Quote
first Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934 |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
9610
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Posted - 2013.09.30 17:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
Are you a certed pilot or not...
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witchking42
UNFRL Fleet Operations
113
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Posted - 2013.09.30 17:09:00 -
[4] - Quote
Cool changes..but then my wife always knew I'd be certified one day |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1562
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Posted - 2013.09.30 17:09:00 -
[5] - Quote
I don't think the skills tab of the character sheet is the best place for the certificate planner. It's not very visible- I have never used that tab ever. The tutorial directs newbies to the skillqueue, doesn't it? And it's the window I use all the time. When I was a newbie I'd plan skills by opening the skillqueue and the certificate planner and working with those windows. Wouldn't certificates be better placed as part of the skillqueue window so newbies are more likely to see it? |
Max Kolonko
High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance
344
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Posted - 2013.09.30 17:16:00 -
[6] - Quote
niiiceee
Finally T2 guns dont need smaller size specialisation WOOT Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff? |
FightingMoose
Norse'Storm Battle Group
5
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Posted - 2013.09.30 17:18:00 -
[7] - Quote
Benny Ohu wrote:I don't think the skills tab of the character sheet is the best place for the certificate planner. It's not very visible- I have never used that tab ever. The tutorial directs newbies to the skillqueue, doesn't it? And it's the window I use all the time. When I was a newbie I'd plan skills by opening the skillqueue and the certificate planner and working with those windows. Wouldn't certificates be better placed as part of the skillqueue window so newbies are more likely to see it?
e: then again that's only my own experience :/
more importantly, does this mean i can refer to myself as a MEGATHRON MASTER?
Don't you have to open the open the skills window to get to the skill planner? Seems like a fine place to put it. I also assume the tutorial will be updated to include the new certificates. CCP Goliath: Seriously, we won't be bringing back the old unique ships for events. We might give other stuff away that is interesting, but no Guardian Vexor, Opux Luxury Yacht, Fedthron, Impoc, SIR, etc, etc. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
1924
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Posted - 2013.09.30 17:18:00 -
[8] - Quote
That's some /bad/ scaling artefacts on the shrunk text.
Anyway, can we get a read only CREST end point sometime soon, so I can implement player/corp/alliance defined certificates, with various access rights?
Public/private isn't enough, but public/private/corp/alliance/code is probably good. Especially for custom certs. Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Antoine Jordan
SUNDERING Goonswarm Federation
72
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Posted - 2013.09.30 17:19:00 -
[9] - Quote
Bring back Cert claiming, I love to click that button! |
Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
514
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Posted - 2013.09.30 17:22:00 -
[10] - Quote
awesome stuff...
the list of skills on the ship could use some breaking up though reading through 15 skills on a battleship gets a little tedious in a list format..
I love the changes to the gun requirements .. long overdue mind. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
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Akrasjel Lanate
Naquatech Conglomerate Naquatech Syndicate
1216
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Posted - 2013.09.30 17:23:00 -
[11] - Quote
Cool you do this first... but i want DevBlogs and threads about the main stuff that will be in Rubicon |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1562
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Posted - 2013.09.30 17:23:00 -
[12] - Quote
FightingMoose wrote:Benny Ohu wrote:I don't think the skills tab of the character sheet is the best place for the certificate planner. It's not very visible- I have never used that tab ever. The tutorial directs newbies to the skillqueue, doesn't it? And it's the window I use all the time. When I was a newbie I'd plan skills by opening the skillqueue and the certificate planner and working with those windows. Wouldn't certificates be better placed as part of the skillqueue window so newbies are more likely to see it?
e: then again that's only my own experience :/
more importantly, does this mean i can refer to myself as a MEGATHRON MASTER? Don't you have to open the open the skills window to get to the skill planner? Seems like a fine place to put it. I also assume the tutorial will be updated to include the new certificates. was it crucible that added the little progress bar to the neocom? i joined just before crucible, and have always clicked the little progress bar to get to the skillqueue. i've also always kept the certificate planner on the neocom.
maybe i'm just peculiar |
Liner Xiandra
Sparks Inc Zero Hour Alliance
218
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Posted - 2013.09.30 17:24:00 -
[13] - Quote
I take it the certificate sharing remains untouched? (showing off your certs or keeping them set private) |
SkyMeetFire
The Rising Stars The Initiative.
25
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Posted - 2013.09.30 17:25:00 -
[14] - Quote
Always liked the idea of certs, and hopefully this implementation will get closer to them reaching the utility for them I hoped for initially. This way might make it easier to suggest what someone should train when trying to get new pilots up to speed. |
War Kitten
Panda McLegion xXPlease Pandemic Citizens Reloaded Alliance.Xx
4329
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Posted - 2013.09.30 17:26:00 -
[15] - Quote
Speaking as a long-time vet, I have the same reaction to these certificates as to the last ones: "Erm... Ok."
I hope they're useful to newer pilots.
I find that without a good mob to provide one for them, most people would have no mentality at all. |
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
1924
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Posted - 2013.09.30 17:26:00 -
[16] - Quote
Liner Xiandra wrote:I take it the certificate sharing remains untouched? (showing off your certs or keeping them set private)
Quote: Certificates can no longer be set as public (feedback showed this option was not used for obvious intel reasons)
Steve Ronuken for CSM 9!-á I'm starting early :) Handy tools and an SDE conversion Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter |
Shinzhi Xadi
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
68
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Posted - 2013.09.30 17:27:00 -
[17] - Quote
I have many times used the certificates to help new players see what to train for the first few months.
These changes are a BIG improvement on the system, and I applaud the team that tackled this! |
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility Casoff
1562
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Posted - 2013.09.30 17:28:00 -
[18] - Quote
Antoine Jordan wrote:Bring back Cert claiming, I love to click that button! it's strangely satisfactory. also, a 'certificate earned' sound like the new one that plays when you finish a skill would be great :3
when i joined my first corp (pretty much the same one as now) i asked the ceo if he could help me as a newbie. he said, "what's your current goal in eve?", and i replied, "i want the elite core certificate and an arbitrator" |
Zilero
Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx
96
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Posted - 2013.09.30 17:31:00 -
[19] - Quote
Nope, just NOPE. Bad CCP, BAD CCP.
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Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve The Fourth District
514
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Posted - 2013.09.30 17:33:00 -
[20] - Quote
Quote:That means redundant ones, like the Starter Profession Certificates, will be removed as they serve no practical purpose My Caldari Special Forces Elite... but... but... RP! Lieutenant Turelus
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District |
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Initiative
3780
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Posted - 2013.09.30 17:35:00 -
[21] - Quote
A few comments: - I would have preferred making training missiles harder than making training guns easier. I'll get over it. - You're going to auto redeem all my hundreds of unclaimed certificates. :( - You should make T2 ammo usable in faction guns while you're at it.
-Liang
Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Dalmont Delantee
DucKtape Unlimited SpaceMonkey's Alliance
172
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Posted - 2013.09.30 17:36:00 -
[22] - Quote
In before "reimburse my skills for guns etc" bollocks |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1307
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Posted - 2013.09.30 17:38:00 -
[23] - Quote
looks good to me... cannot find anything i do not like. and big plus one for tech II weapon training... There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Vestus Regula
Moratorium Inc.
0
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Posted - 2013.09.30 17:39:00 -
[24] - Quote
Gunnery specialization requirements is what "balanced" that tree against missiles. On missiles, you could choose what to specialize on right away, but you had to train a different "base" skill on each tier for short and long range. That make specializing on a specific group quicker than guns, but on all of them slower. With this so called "tiercide" happening on the gunnery skills, that fine "balance" is gone through the window.
Is there anything planned for the missile skills tree or is that yet another way missiles are being rendered utterly useless and obsolete? |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
1307
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Posted - 2013.09.30 17:40:00 -
[25] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: - You should make T2 ammo usable in faction guns while you're at it.
this!
There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... Winter Expansion new ship request |
Ancy Denaries
Frontier Venture
182
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Posted - 2013.09.30 17:46:00 -
[26] - Quote
This is absolutely brilliant. Thank you! "Shoot at anything that moves. If it doesn't move, shoot it anyway, it might move later."
"Do not be too positive. The light at the end of the tunnel could be a train." - Franz Kafka |
Ancy Denaries
Frontier Venture
182
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Posted - 2013.09.30 17:47:00 -
[27] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:A few comments: - I would have preferred making training missiles harder than making training guns easier. I'll get over it. - You're going to auto redeem all my hundreds of unclaimed certificates. :( - You should make T2 ammo usable in faction guns while you're at it.
-Liang
1. Big deal honestly. The disrepency was huge, and it was rather silly for guns. 2. You'll also not have 300+ useless and pointless certs anymore. 3. What? "Shoot at anything that moves. If it doesn't move, shoot it anyway, it might move later."
"Do not be too positive. The light at the end of the tunnel could be a train." - Franz Kafka |
Utremi Fasolasi
La Dolce Vita
279
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Posted - 2013.09.30 17:49:00 -
[28] - Quote
Vestus Regula wrote:Gunnery specialization requirements is what "balanced" that tree against missiles. On missiles, you could choose what to specialize on right away, but you had to train a different "base" skill on each tier for short and long range. That make specializing on a specific group quicker than guns, but on all of them slower. With this so called "tiercide" happening on the gunnery skills, that fine "balance" is gone through the window.
Is there anything planned for the missile skills tree or is that yet another way missiles are being rendered utterly useless and obsolete?
I wouldn't mind seeing more support skills added to the Gunner tree. |
Aethlyn
EVE University Ivy League
233
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Posted - 2013.09.30 18:02:00 -
[29] - Quote
Sounds interesting; and "completionists" get something new to aim for? Hm... still won't train those silly 30 days for 2% more damage (yet)! :) Looking for more thoughts? Follow me on Twitter. |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
1361
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 18:05:00 -
[30] - Quote
Antoine Jordan wrote:Bring back Cert claiming, I love to click that button!
As do I, in the forlorn hope that I may have at least one to claim. This is not a signature. |
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Xurr
Angelic Insurrection Corp
28
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Posted - 2013.09.30 18:08:00 -
[31] - Quote
You'll keep tactical shield manipulation @ 5 as a requirement still (for the cert, or what ever it'll be called now) or will you be redoing that as well?
Feedback on Liang's idea for T2 ammo in faction guns would be cool to hear. |
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille Gallente Federation
177
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Posted - 2013.09.30 18:15:00 -
[32] - Quote
Nice changes, is the ship skill itself required for the ship mastery level? If not it leaves a big hole in the suggested performance a ship might have as represented by the mastery level. I say this as I expected a slight difference in the mastery requirements between T1, pirate and T2 but it does not read as such in the blog. |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
233
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Posted - 2013.09.30 18:20:00 -
[33] - Quote
Vestus Regula wrote:Gunnery specialization requirements is what "balanced" that tree against missiles. On missiles, you could choose what to specialize on right away, but you had to train a different "base" skill on each tier for short and long range. That make specializing on a specific group quicker than guns, but on all of them slower. With this so called "tiercide" happening on the gunnery skills, that fine "balance" is gone through the window.
Is there anything planned for the missile skills tree or is that yet another way missiles are being rendered utterly useless and obsolete? This. Missile training time to get all launchers in a tier is now nearly double (more than double, if you count Rapid Light and Rapid Heavy) the time to get both long/short range guns of a type in a tier.
With missile's advantage of no-previous-T2 being given to guns as well, guns' advantage of one-skill-per-tier needs to be given to missiles as well. |
Wiu Ming
Dracos Dozen
56
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Posted - 2013.09.30 18:25:00 -
[34] - Quote
thank christ Astronautics Rigging V will be required for l33t mega pilots. in b4 Nanothron doctrine... |
Matokin Lemant
3
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Posted - 2013.09.30 18:25:00 -
[35] - Quote
Umm I cant believe there is no one whining about "but I trained all the gunnery skills even tho I only wanted tech II large.....therefore by my logic you owe me free SP"
Anyway I like the new large gunnery changes tho it will manly impact new players (and new alts) it will make battle ships easier to skill up for now. |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9177
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 18:26:00 -
[36] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:- You should make T2 ammo usable in faction guns while you're at it.
with the requirement to have the relevant gunnery spec trained, of course Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
Masao Kurata
Z List
36
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Posted - 2013.09.30 18:27:00 -
[37] - Quote
If I understand your plans, the new certificate system is terrible. Take the navigation certificate shown in this dev blog: if you train according to the certificate you won't train microwarpdrives until level IV, the same level which recommends MJDs, astronautic rigging IV (what? Yes, I know, tech II rigs but that's seriously the same importance as being able to fit a MWD in your book?), navigation V, evasive maneuvering IV... you might as well just point players at the navigation skill tree. This is useless as a guide (not that the current navigation certificates are very good, they are in fact probably the worst set of certificates in the system today). I certainly hope you don't intend to have, for instance, a single gunnery certificate guiding new players down a road that goes nowhere fast. There's simplification and then there's oversimplification, this is the latter. I hope this is just a bad example of the new certificates, the point is surely to help people focus their training, not spread it out more.
On a more positive note, tech II turret skill changes. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. |
Shalmon Aliatus
Kaiser Industries The Craftsmen
0
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Posted - 2013.09.30 18:34:00 -
[38] - Quote
hmm, I never checked the certs for the ships and weapons. I use EVEHQ and look the "Alter relevant skills"-menue for skills affecting the ships and modules.
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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
578
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Posted - 2013.09.30 18:35:00 -
[39] - Quote
Sweet stuff ! Especially the certificate part.
Of course for the regular eve player it won't change a thing, but the number of noobs asking me for clarifications about the certificate system is definitely worth this change :D G££ <= Me |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9177
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Posted - 2013.09.30 18:37:00 -
[40] - Quote
also, corp/alliance certificates would be a great thing, because otherwise we're ridiculous crap like this Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
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Psihius
Anarchist Dawn U N K N O W N
42
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Posted - 2013.09.30 18:42:00 -
[41] - Quote
Good stuff, but I have to say it... T2 ammo? It has all the prerequesties of smaller weapon specializations and guns like lvl5, so until you change it - there is no po |
WarpToMe AtZero
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2013.09.30 18:43:00 -
[42] - Quote
It seems confusing, to use Tech II guns (hybrid and projectile) the primary skill is level IV but the tertiary skill is V to train specialization. But without specialization you can't use Tech II guns. And I just noticed lasers require primary at level V. |
Hesod Adee
Turalyon Plus Turalyon Alliance
77
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Posted - 2013.09.30 18:47:00 -
[43] - Quote
What's happening with the Hull Tanking Elite certificate ? |
Ager Agemo
Kiith Paktu Curatores Veritatis Alliance
380
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 18:47:00 -
[44] - Quote
its a shame that me as a battleship pilot already was forced to train all the skills for smaller ships I do not fly, but nonetheless great job. |
Axloth Okiah
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
158
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 18:49:00 -
[45] - Quote
What about XL guns? Will they still need Large Turret skill lvl V? W-Space Realtor |
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
578
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 18:50:00 -
[46] - Quote
BUT : Where are my corp certificates ? G££ <= Me |
Liner Xiandra
Sparks Inc Zero Hour Alliance
218
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Posted - 2013.09.30 18:57:00 -
[47] - Quote
So in order to tell if a corpmate should be allowed a corp-role or been given a ship we're now forced to do an API check to see if he or she qualifies for the associated certificate?
Please dont toss out public certificates. In fact, expand it with corp/alliance access please. |
Aliventi
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
503
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Posted - 2013.09.30 18:58:00 -
[48] - Quote
I love that gun training no longer needs the previous sizes of guns trained to V to get the next sized up T2 guns. This does bring the gunnery skills in line with missile skills. However, this doesn't fix the issue that the base missile skills take twice as long to train as the base skills of a single type of turret. I have some numbers below:
Quote:Some by the numbers: For equivalent effectiveness of small turrets you need to train: Rockets (256k SP) + Light Missiles(512k SP) = 768k SP - small projectile turret (256k SP) = 512k UNNEEDED SP
For equivalent effectiveness of medium turrets you need to train: Heavy Missiles (768k SP) + Heavy Assault Missiles (768k SP) = 1536k SP - Medium projectile turret (768k SP) = 768k UNNEEDED SP
For equivalent effectiveness of large turrets you need to train: Cruise Missiles (1280k SP) + Torpedos (1024k) = 2304k SP - large projectile turret (1280k SP) = 1024k UNNEEDED SP
Totals: Missile Launcher Skill to V is 4608k SP and Gunnery Turret skill to V is 2304k SP. Each Gunnery Turret SP is worth 2 Missile Launcher SP.
Total up to this point is 2,304,000 unneeded SP just to be as effective as a someone who trained a large turret skill to V. At 2250 SP/hr (remapped Perception/Willpower with no implants) that is 42.66 days worth of additional unneeded training. At 2700 SP/hr (Remapped Perception/Willpower with +5 implants) that is 35.55 days worth of additional unneeded training.
The numbers made sense previously as missiles allowed quicker specialization, but slower generalization. Turrets offered better generalization and slower specialization. Now that turrets get the generalization and specialization it would be nice for missiles to join them. If you could unify the training times missiles and turrets that would finally make these changes complete. "tbh most people don't care about removing local from highsec. They want it gone from nullsec. I want to be able to solo roam hunt without everyone knowing I am there without them actually seeing me jump through the gate. Effortless intel is bad." ~Me |
Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
516
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Posted - 2013.09.30 19:01:00 -
[49] - Quote
Psihius wrote:Good stuff, but I have to say it... T2 ammo? It has all the prerequesties of training turrets to lvl5, and specializations to 4 on smaller turrets - so for Large T2 guns to use tech 2 ammo I have to train small, medium and large (the large one is fine ofcourse) to lvl4, so I would assume you have forgotten about the tech 2 ammo? An image :) http://clip2net.com/s/5Rfb3s
Well noticed... perhaps ammo could get their own skills
and sharpshooting lv5 for T2 LR guns is also annoying and should be reduced to lv3.. Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Marsan
Caldari Provisions
125
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Posted - 2013.09.30 19:03:00 -
[50] - Quote
Hesod Adee wrote:What's happening with the Hull Tanking Elite certificate ?
Please keep the Hull Tanking cert!!! I've got to Leet at something. Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a hopeful small portion of the community. |
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Bagrat Skalski
Poseidaon
342
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Posted - 2013.09.30 19:14:00 -
[51] - Quote
We need ISK tanking certificate beside hull tanking certificate. Protect yourself from CONCORD today! Tinfoil hats, quality product. Styled after pirate hats. |
Maximus Andendare
Future Corps Sleeper Social Club
607
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 19:15:00 -
[52] - Quote
It'll be very nice and easy to cross train into large weapons now! Thank you for changing this. I can now have projectile large, hybrid medium and laser smalls if I want....not a very good idea, but at least its possible!! Step onto the battlefield, and you're already dead, born again at the end of the battle to live on and fight another day.
>> Play Dust 514 FREE! Sign up for exclusive gear today! << |
Tanaka Aiko
ICE is Coming to EVE Goonswarm Federation
187
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Posted - 2013.09.30 19:15:00 -
[53] - Quote
Quick, upgrade your clone CCP Ytterbium!
About the few worlds on corporates certificates... are you doing these custom-made things we'd asked for a while soon? |
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
127
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Posted - 2013.09.30 19:21:00 -
[54] - Quote
Certificates will never really work all that well in a game with so many skills, ships, and roles. A game where level 5 in a skill can take a month or more to train and gives an unnoticeable benefit. And a game where you can fit your ship however you like and for varying uses. Hopefully new players will understand that they are a very rough guide and are not to be taken too seriously. Astronautics Rigging 5... |
1Robert McNamara1
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
21
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Posted - 2013.09.30 19:28:00 -
[55] - Quote
http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/65175/1/SC_Icons_Branded.png
This could be made a touch more intuitive.
Red is worse than grey generally. Give Red/Yellow/Green a shot. Red - do not own/not injected >Yellow - injected, not high enough for requirement > Green - requirement met > Green Star - L5 |
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
2056
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 19:29:00 -
[56] - Quote
i like the look of the skill icons in the skill list. Maybe you could update the skillbook icon of the actual item too for consistency reasons. eve style bounties (done) dust boarding parties imagine there is war and everybody cloaks - join FW |
Gospadin
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
76
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 19:29:00 -
[57] - Quote
For this to be useful I think this still needs some mechanism of exposing/sharing skill proficiency levels to others short of giving them an API key.
Other than that, these changes are hot 3-way sex in a tub of jello. |
M1AU
The Scope Gallente Federation
46
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 19:33:00 -
[58] - Quote
Throughout good changes. Well done! |
VaL Iscariot
The Concilium Enterprises THE ROYAL NAVY
64
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 19:37:00 -
[59] - Quote
Two questions:
1. Why are large and medium beam lasers harder to use than any other turret class? The skills needed for 425mm t2 rail guns only requires Large Hybrid Turret lvl IV where as Tachyon Beam Laser t2 requires Large Energy Turret lvl V. Maybe a typo? If not, what is the thought process?
2. Will I get to keep my Hull Tanking Elite certificate? |
Gospadin
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
76
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 19:38:00 -
[60] - Quote
Can we get a new option in the skill window to "hide fully trained skills" ?
Would like to be able to "show all skills" with "hide fully trained" selected at the same time when I'm browsing to see what to do next. |
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Ishtanchuk Fazmarai
1995
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 19:52:00 -
[61] - Quote
Looks nice, but I like cliking the "Get certificates" button. Not a *critical* issue, but it feels rewarding when the message pops and says "certificate earned". The Greater Fool Bar is now open for business, 24/7. Come and have drinks and fun somewhere between RL and New Eden! |
JamnOne
Jammin Corp
10
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Posted - 2013.09.30 19:59:00 -
[62] - Quote
" and as each ship gets a set of certificates associated with it, players will also be able to see how well they can fly and fit them"
Just because a pilot has the skills doesn't mean he can fly! |
Andski
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
9177
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 20:23:00 -
[63] - Quote
Shouldn't the master level navigation certificate require armor rigging 5 instead of astronautics rigging 5? It doesn't really make sense that a skill which reduces the armor penalty of rigs that are rarely used on any combat ship larger than a frigate would be required to master a battleship, or to master navigation at that. Twitter: @EVEAndski
TheMittani.com: The premier source for news, commentary and discussion of EVE Online and other games of interest.-á |
Kismeteer
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
435
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 20:27:00 -
[64] - Quote
Andski wrote:Shouldn't the master level navigation certificate require armor rigging 5 instead of astronautics rigging 5? It doesn't really make sense that a skill which reduces the armor penalty of rigs that are rarely used on any combat ship larger than a frigate would be required to master a battleship, or to master navigation at that.
But what about my cargo expanders for all the navy 800's I bring with my Mega? |
Midnight Hope
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
133
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 20:32:00 -
[65] - Quote
Some sore points after reading the devblog (in no particular order):
The "Skill Requirement icon" (last screenshot in the blog) could use some work. They do not convey a progression and when looking at them individually (as opposed one next to the other) I'm not sure I'll remember what each one means. If you are going to go and use color, why limit yourself to gray/red/green/green. Please use more colors or better yet, redesign the little things so they look more cohesive and related to one another.
I will also miss the feeling of achievement when I went and claimed my certificates. Now it will all happen in the background with no sense of progress or success. Even something ala "skill level completed" notification would be nice.
How can I show how pro am I if all certificates are going to be private?? Checking through the API is ok for recruting directors or such paperpushers, b ut for the common folk that is waay to complicated.
Overall I like the changes! Keep them coming! |
Maxxor Brutor
Imperial Collective
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 20:33:00 -
[66] - Quote
Never has it been easier to train a Tornado alt. |
Soaran Sikadi
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
4
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 20:35:00 -
[67] - Quote
The new certificate system, especially with more fine grained notions of competence at flying a given ship, seems like it could be extraordinarily useful to new players. It seems to be a framework that could solve many of the problems with the current certificate system, namely the extremely coarse grain of the reccomendations and the inability to tell until you are an older player which certificates might actually be useful.
Unfortunately, in the screenshots shown, many skills which are largely irrelevant are being labeled as useful, and often suggested to be trained to 5, largely negating the point of such certificates. As an example, take the suggestion to train "Astronautics Rigging" to 5 in order to have top level competency in Megathron piloting, as shown here.
I am not sure I have ever seen a Megathron with an astronautics rig fit, even on an ALOD-style killmail. Looking through the list on that sample, there are other similarly irrelevant or overkill skills, this is just one blatant example. The usefulness of a certification system lies not in the breadth of what it suggest you train, but in the specificity.
It seems that this issue draws out of the decision to link a ship against a list of other certificates, rather than pruning them to what might be reccomended or useful for the ship, e.g. there is likely just a "Navigation V" certificate that the Megathron cert is suggesting, which has a number of useful things, and also some not useful things. While I'm aware it might be a bit of a pain, or take some time, I think it might be more useful to make per-ship lists of skills, and categorize them by which of those other overarching certificates they are from, rather than just wholesale pasting the certificates in. For example, in the case of the Megathron, you'd know that if you had Navigation V you'd fill useful requirements at the high level, but if you opened it up you would not see the whole certificate listed. For example, you would likely see Acceleration Control to 4 or 5, but not Astronautics Rigging at all. If you selected skills that were from different levels (e.g. if you suggested MJD skill to 4, but Acceleration Control to 5) you could just pick the higher level of the certificate to display. In this system, the first display would be a list of certificates which are sufficient, but not necessary, and then when you drilled down you would see the precise skills that are useful for that hull. This would allow players to still easily determine what is useful for a ship, while at a glance being able to tell which broader certificates would be useful across multiple hulls at a glance.
I'd like to see this system succeed, but if the skill lists in the dev post are any indication of what is actually intended for release, I would like to suggest you take a hard look at pruning the certificates to something more reasonable. |
Dracnys
32
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 20:41:00 -
[68] - Quote
I see a problem with putting skills like Astronautics Rigging V on the same level of importance as Navigation V. Everyone should train Navigation V but only maybe 1% of players use astronautics rigs excessively enough to warrant the rigging skill to V. If you put both in the same tier of ship mastery it looks like they are about equally important to the ship and overall.
Maybe add in a sixth "uber elite" tier that requires skills that even most veteran characters with 50m SP and more don't have. These would be for example Tactical Shield Manipulation V, Rigging Skills V, Shield and Armor Resistances to V and so on. Newbies should not waste their time training those for poor returns compared to their returns for training say Engineering V.
|
Dirk Morbho
Mindstar Technology Fatal Ascension
6
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 20:52:00 -
[69] - Quote
Outstanding devblog. These changes look REALLY solid!
|
Soaran Sikadi
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 20:53:00 -
[70] - Quote
On a side note, this would be a really cool thing to integrate with CREST, corp fittings, and corp certificates. Imagine this:
1.) Corp or alliance fitting guru sits in an external program like EFT or pyfa, making fits. 2.) Program uses CREST to send the fit, with a corresponding ranked certificate generated by the program for efficiency of flying that fit, to the eve servers for the corporation. 3.) Player who wants to fly in a fleet using that fit can see what skills are required in addition to what parts are required. Bonus: 4.) Allow for ships to have different rank configurations depending on which cert for the ship they meet, e.g. if the fitting guy wants to, he can make a meta'd down version with much lower skill requirements, and assign this to the first few tiers of the cert. |
|
Olaf4862
KnownUnknown
32
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 20:56:00 -
[71] - Quote
Um is it just me but @CCP Devs, you guys got weird gun requirements, they do not match up even though they take the same training to complete.
If you look in the primary skills the Beam weapons need level V for the primary skill but the Hybrid and Projectile both only require IV...
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Initiative
3783
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 20:59:00 -
[72] - Quote
Andski wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:- You should make T2 ammo usable in faction guns while you're at it. with the requirement to have the relevant gunnery spec trained, of course
Of course.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Soaran Sikadi
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
5
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 21:04:00 -
[73] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:A few comments: - You should make T2 ammo usable in faction guns while you're at it.
-Liang
This doesn't really seem like a good idea to me. At the moment there is a notable tradeoff (isk value notwithstanding) when selecting between faction and T2 guns - one of them gives you more selection on projection, and one gives you more damage (at a pretty big price tag in most cases). This seems like a nice decision to have people make when fitting ships. |
Kat Ayclism
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
45
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 21:12:00 -
[74] - Quote
Ohey let's get rid of having some reward over time through progressing in the guns, and just shove more morons into megas so we can have more soulgrindingly **** tidi fights that (only coincidentally) completely discount any benefits more specialized doctrines would have.
Surely that will be "fun." Thanks CSM for thinking that was something you should just rubberstamp. |
Xeen Du'Wang
Knights of the Black Watch
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 21:15:00 -
[75] - Quote
On to the next blog |
Sid Hudgens
Totally not an NPC Corp
167
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 21:16:00 -
[76] - Quote
Tackling cert lvl 5 for megathron mastery ... so I won't forget any necessary skills while training up for my tackling mega. "....as if 10,058 Goon voices cried out and were suddenly silenced." |
David Kir
Tailender
233
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 21:25:00 -
[77] - Quote
I hope that Pirate ships haven't been overlooked. The lack of certificates on ships such as the Nightmare or the Vindicator is quite silly. Oh, and thanks for the turret skill requirements changes. It was about time.
|
Doc Tor Dre
Minmatar Mining and Materials
1
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 21:26:00 -
[78] - Quote
+1 for keeping Hull Tanking Elite - it is my proudest achievement in Eve. |
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
287
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 21:28:00 -
[79] - Quote
Since this will break third-party apps, can we have a preview of the data dump/API so we can start preparing for this? |
Mashie Saldana
BFG Tech
732
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 21:32:00 -
[80] - Quote
Mmm, I like the sound of mastery, fits my skill sheet perfectly. Mashie Saldana Dominique Vasilkovsky
|
|
Dunk Dinkle
Brave Newbies Inc. Brave Collective
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 21:35:00 -
[81] - Quote
The changes look great and will be helpful to our new pilots especially.
However, we need to hear the status of the Hull Tanking Elite certificate before giving it both thumbs up.
|
Ransu Asanari
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
19
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 21:48:00 -
[82] - Quote
Aliventi wrote:I love that gun training no longer needs the previous sizes of guns trained to V to get the next sized up T2 guns. This does bring the gunnery skills in line with missile skills. However, this doesn't fix the issue that the base missile skills take twice as long to train as the base skills of a single type of turret. I have some numbers below:
**NUMBERS**
The numbers made sense previously as missiles allowed quicker specialization, but slower generalization. Turrets offered better generalization and slower specialization. Now that turrets get the generalization and specialization it would be nice for missiles to join them. If you could unify the training times missiles and turrets that would finally make these changes complete.
Thank you for articulating this concern and backing it up with numbers. This is my concern as well, as it was one of the core differentiators between Gunnery and Missiles. I believe Missiles were at a disadvantage before this change, because the support skills only affected one weapon system, versus 3 (Hybrids, Energy Turrets, Projectiles). With this differentiation being removed, some balance should be applied to players who invested a lot of SP specializing in this weapon system. |
Ifly Uwalk
Empire Tax Collection Agency
934
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 21:55:00 -
[83] - Quote
Some good stuff in there although apparently I never used the certificate system the way it was designed to be used ("guidance" - chortle). For me, it was always about the bling. With that said:
- Please keep the "Claim" button.
- Please retain the ability to set Certs to Public; this is very important because it allows people to see my
- Hull Tanking Certificate Elite - nuff said.
Also - Starter Professions should stay mos def! |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
390
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 21:55:00 -
[84] - Quote
Also voicing my concern over missile skills. If guns only have to train 'Hybrid weapons' missiles should gain the same unity of 'Small missiles' for Rockets & Light missiles, then specialise differently. As the 'advantage' missiles had of skipping specs that was always used as the argument for why missiles had to train twice has now been removed.
Though I approve of the changes to gun skill requirements.
I also feel the skill multipliers of the missile support skills should be reviewed at the same time, as they only apply to a single skill, not two skills (Most of the Gunnery Support skills actually only benefit two of the three gun types, Controlled Bursts being no benefit to AC's, Optimal being minimal benefit to AC's etc) |
Rodrik Vikary
EVE University Ivy League
0
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 22:05:00 -
[85] - Quote
These changes seem to be really great! I can't wait to see all these new things in EVE!
The certificates and the requirements for T2 guns are very good changes that will improve the capsuleer experience a lot and make it easier for not only new players but also the old ones. |
Marlene Dakenek
Devid Ventures
9
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 22:32:00 -
[86] - Quote
Good changes. However it would be nice if the skill books and info icons would have some other color than gray. I like the current beige and blue color scheme. |
James Akachi
Perkone Caldari State
7
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 22:50:00 -
[87] - Quote
1Robert McNamara1 wrote:http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/65175/1/SC_Icons_Branded.png
This could be made a touch more intuitive.
Red is worse than grey generally. Give Red/Yellow/Green a shot. Red - do not own/not injected >Yellow - injected, not high enough for requirement > Green - requirement met > Green Star - L5 +1 to this. It would mirror how the current certificate requirements are marked: red X for no requirement met, yellow O for some requirements met, green check for all requirements met. The symbols aren't important but the colors are. As an alternative, make the "uninjected" a red wireframe or outline of a skillbook.
A few other things.
1. Please make sure the new "requirements" tab is also applied to other "skill prerequisites" tabs such as for Modules and Skills themselves. It would be awkward if they continue using the current format. 2. Perhaps add arrows for the skills so you can expand and contract skill trees in the requirements tab. So you could look at either just the 3 required skills, or all of their prerequisites as you desire. 3. Please add a popup notification when you reach a new level of a certificate with an appropriate sound. Achievement Unlocked (of course not with those words ) |
Nihill Widderslaint
EVE University Ivy League
3
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 23:33:00 -
[88] - Quote
Loving the Turret Tiericide! I was actually hoping for this while training core turrets' skills to get in a T2-weapons Nightmare, this is perfect, about 21 days of unneeded small/medium training will be gone. (some other stuff to train until the release, all is good)
+1 to the argument (backed up with numbers, post #48) of rebalancing missiles skill trees/multipliers, considering now things will be much better for turrets (from a new-ish player base perspective), and considering Devs ARE at it (Rapid Heavies!) you guys should definitely give it some love. Thanks.
+1 concerning the colors of skill requirements. Red/Yellow/Green/Green-Star is much more visually intuitive.
The Mastery concept seems good, can't wait to see the InterBus ship specialization tree (or whatever you'll call it) showed in the last ccp stream, I predict that's something I'll spend hours in awe / planning.
Cheers for the Devs involved!
|
Highfield
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
25
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 23:42:00 -
[89] - Quote
"thatGÇÖs where corporation created certificates might come in handy"
YES! Superduper useful to let people know what to train for the new doctrines. |
Rain6638
Team Evil
676
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 23:43:00 -
[90] - Quote
sweet. this is excellent. focused max'ed ships will come sooner with the gunnery skill surgery. win [ 2013.06.21 09:52:05 ] (notify) For initiating combat your security status has been adjusted by -0.1337 yo dawg, we heard you liek industrials, so we put an industrial in yo industrial so you can loss while u loss |
|
stoicfaux
3183
|
Posted - 2013.09.30 23:48:00 -
[91] - Quote
a) You buried Gunnery Tiericide in a Cert dev blog. It should have been its own blog.
b) The large gunnery pre-req windows are backwards in terms of Primary and Tertiary skills e.g. "Large Artillery V" should be in the Primary as oppose to "Large Artillery IV." It's a clarity issue.
c) You're nerfing/lowering my cert count? I expect compensation!
|
|
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
442
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 00:06:00 -
[92] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: Certificate icons are changed to be a lot more readable (how many of you knew that the old certificate icons were showing different levels?) o/ ISD Ezwal Lt. Commander Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
None ofthe Above
680
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 00:21:00 -
[93] - Quote
Ishtanchuk Fazmarai wrote:Looks nice, but I like cliking the "Get certificates" button. Not a *critical* issue, but it feels rewarding when the message pops and says "certificate earned".
I won't miss it.
I particularly disliked the avatar image flashing to get me to accept the certificates, then when I did -- flashing again to let me know I just received the certificates that I just accepted.
I like the changes in general. All in all seems like an improvement.
The gunnery skill changes is a surprise. Not sure how I feel about that, but can probably adapt. Valid point that it probably deserves it's own blog or announcement. The people that care about that aren't necessarily the same people that would read about certs.
The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit. |
Galphii
Oberon Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
184
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 01:12:00 -
[94] - Quote
Excellent changes, especially to turret specialisation. Love the clarity and focus of the mastery system, this will really help newer players get a grasp on what they need to train for. Well done! X |
Dersen Lowery
Laurentson INC StructureDamage
782
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 01:32:00 -
[95] - Quote
Nihill Widderslaint wrote:+1 concerning the colors of skill requirements. Red/Yellow/Green/Green-Star is much more visually intuitive.
Red/Yellow/Blue is friendlier to the colorblind, especially if they're different hues. Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables. |
TheSmokingHertog
TALIBAN EXPRESS
150
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 01:47:00 -
[96] - Quote
Very nice changes, keep the blogs comming. |
M1k3y Koontz
Thorn Project Surely You're Joking
326
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 01:51:00 -
[97] - Quote
Antoine Jordan wrote:Bring back Cert claiming, I love to click that button!
Noooooo!!!!! Such an unnecessary hassle How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp. |
Mioelnir
Cataclysm Enterprises Easily Offended
106
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 02:08:00 -
[98] - Quote
If the Panther keeps its recommendation of Artillery with Active Armor Tanking I'll make fun of the certificate system next Fanfest again (if you don't know why this recommendation is funny: try fitting it).
PS: sad that newer players will never again feel the sense of accomplishment of having t2 large turrets. |
Matuk Grymwal
Bite Me inc Bitten.
62
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 02:24:00 -
[99] - Quote
Awesome, I've wanted the gunnery skills to be decoupled like missiles for years. Anything that encourages specialisation is to be applauded. |
Sturmwolke
447
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 03:35:00 -
[100] - Quote
Ok, good move for the certificates ... now create an ingame template tool for players aka like ships fits for certificates so that it can be passed around to players. Why do this? Because you get tired for the upteenth time telling newbies what to train for, for a specific task. It makes the job a lot easier by templating - i.e by allowing players to pick and choose what they think as important skills for a task.
For example, arbitrary :
Armor Logistic for Incursion Template Navigation 3 Sensor Linking 3 Remote Armor Repair 5 Whatever Else 5 Hull 4 Ship 5
... you get idea. |
|
Alim Omaristos
Dont Pod Me Bro
5
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 04:18:00 -
[101] - Quote
Mioelnir wrote:If the Panther keeps its recommendation of Artillery with Active Armor Tanking I'll make fun of the certificate system next Fanfest again (if you don't know why this recommendation is funny: try fitting it).
PS: sad that newer players will never again feel the sense of accomplishment of having t2 large turrets.
I trained large guns to V motion prediction to V and then starred training small guns to V and small gun spec, this was announced today and I'm honestly happy I don't have to train medium guns, I don't like flying cruisers. I felt no sense of accomplishment only annoyance that I couldn't train things I wanted to train in order to get large T2s.
|
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Initiative
3788
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 06:43:00 -
[102] - Quote
Soaran Sikadi wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:A few comments: - You should make T2 ammo usable in faction guns while you're at it.
-Liang
This doesn't really seem like a good idea to me. At the moment there is a notable tradeoff (isk value notwithstanding) when selecting between faction and T2 guns - one of them gives you more selection on projection, and one gives you more damage (at a pretty big price tag in most cases). This seems like a nice decision to have people make when fitting ships.
Last I looked T2 guns actually outdamage faction by a fair amount once you factor in the specialization skill. The T2 ammo restriction to T2 guns means that T2 guns completely (and I do mean completely) obsolete faction guns.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
|
Tlat Ij
Hedion University Amarr Empire
54
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 06:54:00 -
[103] - Quote
1. The new char sheet is too bland. The icons look pretty much the same at a quick glance. Put colour in them so you can see the difference quickly like the current system has and also you have in the other windows for the new system.
2. Why do t2 lasers have a primary skill req of turret 5 but the projectiles and hybrids only need turret 4? You show that both TQ and the new system are like that? It doesn't make much sense tbh since all other t2 items need primary skill 5 to use. |
Uppsy Daisy
Perkone Caldari State
541
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 07:16:00 -
[104] - Quote
[ |
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
676
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 07:46:00 -
[105] - Quote
Nice and all but... I was hoping for something "gamey" involved. You know, new content of a game like nature that I can play with/explore/achieve. Apparently NPE always get attention in any expansion and I hope this update is to cover that.
Now I am looking forward to hear about the Rubicon content for the non-new player. Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook-á |
Schmata Bastanold
The brothers inc WHYS0 Expendable
1003
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 08:55:00 -
[106] - Quote
Meh, except skills changes for bigger guns this changes nothing really for players. Everybody uses 3rd party tools for skill planning anyway because apparently you have no will to implement one in-game so while better visualisation and getting rid of obsolete clicks and data is cool overall your effort is futile. Unless of course this is just clean up before introducing real content involving certificated and masteries. I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
1017
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 09:29:00 -
[107] - Quote
Overall this is a good change, but some of those level V mastery certificates are a bit of a joke with regards to what they want at Level V.
Astronautics Rigging 5? If you're training that then you've either got 100m skillpoints or the game is encouraging you to train things which have absolutely no benefit in relation to the time they take.
The same goes with the now pretty useless shield resistances, gunnery specs and so on.
They represent a bad progression for anyone using the certificates for people planning skills. CCP needs to lower them to IV which is as mastered as you're ever going to need until you have nothing better to train. |
Terrorfrodo
Renegade Hobbits for Mordor
582
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 09:43:00 -
[108] - Quote
It's hard to imagine a feature more boring than this I hope it did not take much work.
Most of this stuff I have already skilled anyway, and anyhow I don't need stupid certificates to tell me what to train, that is what EVEmon is for and has been doing great for many years. . |
Mashie Saldana
BFG Tech
732
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 09:51:00 -
[109] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:Overall this is a good change, but some of those level V mastery certificates are a bit of a joke with regards to what they want at Level V.
Astronautics Rigging 5? If you're training that then you've either got 100m skillpoints or the game is encouraging you to train things which have absolutely no benefit in relation to the time they take.
The same goes with the now pretty useless shield resistances, gunnery specs and so on.
They represent a bad progression for anyone using the certificates for people planning skills. CCP needs to lower them to IV which is as mastered as you're ever going to need until you have nothing better to train. You know, the whole point of maxing out the Mastery level to 5 on a ship isn't for 1m SP noobs, it is for those of us starting to reach 200m SP and running out of fun stuff to train.
I can't wait to nail mastery 5 for every sub cap in game. Mashie Saldana Dominique Vasilkovsky
|
Yongtau Naskingar
Yongtau Naskingar Corporation
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 11:19:00 -
[110] - Quote
I think it's looking really shiny :) I just hope you let me keep showing off with certificates. |
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Rob Crowley
State War Academy
196
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 12:00:00 -
[111] - Quote
Seems like a pretty well thought-out change, good work CCP.
Some minor comments:
- As has been noticed, missile training is kinda unbalanced with gunnery. Missiles have 2 skills per size and a whole different set of support skills. So while I'm not against the more specialized gunnery training approach I think missile skills need something in return.
- Hull Tanking Elite. If you can't find a place for fun certificates in this new condensed system I understand and I'll get over it, but if you somehow manage to keep it in you're my heroes.
- Good riddance to the Claim Certificates button! It's not needed for skills and it's not needed for certs either IMO. Some people seem to like it cause the short automatic notification is not enough for them, maybe you could have a certificate (and even mastery) history similar to skill history, so people can check out what they recently acquired.
- Regarding Astronautics Rigging V. I think people claiming this system will be useless for noobs because of AR V in the Mastery V completely misunderstand what Mastery V is supposed to mean. It's not anywhere close to noob level, maxed mastery is obviously an "endgame achievement" for people with 100+m SP. Level V mastery seems to say "I have maxed every flipping skill that this hull could ever possibly use." And while I can understand that people want those golden wings (I want them too and I probably won't have any) I think it's alright to go a bit over the top regarding prereqs at the highest level.
Alticus C Bear wrote:Nice changes, is the ship skill itself required for the ship mastery level? If not it leaves a big hole in the suggested performance a ship might have as represented by the mastery level. The last pic in the blog implies that mastery will only take certificates into account. But I don't see this as much of a problem cause when you look at the ship you'll see both icons next to each other and if the prereq icon doesn't have a star that's an obvious improvement possibility before even considering mastery.
Marcel Devereux wrote:Since this will break third-party apps, can we have a preview of the data dump/API so we can start preparing for this? This, it's not needed right now of course. But it would be great to know the exact API changes in advance to prepare stuff.
stoicfaux wrote:b) The large gunnery pre-req windows are backwards in terms of Primary and Tertiary skills e.g. "Large Artillery V" should be in the Primary as oppose to "Large Artillery IV." It's a clarity issue. I assume you mean "Large Projectile". First of all LP V is not a requirement in that example, it's a nested requirement and therefore not actually needed. Secondly, they already wrote that they are getting rid of calling prereqs Primary/Secondary/etc. |
Alexander the Great
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
142
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 12:01:00 -
[112] - Quote
Are you taking away my HULL TANKING ELITE? |
Senshi Teichou
Free Space Organization
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 12:03:00 -
[113] - Quote
i think you made an error there, hybrid and projectile guns only requiring their skill at lvl 4..
for example on this picture: http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/65175/1/Lturretsafter.png
another thought on this same image:
why not remove "large ... turret level 5" and "gunnery level 5" from the requirements?
simply because "large ... specialization level 1 " has them included
also: one should not require support skills at level 5 to be able to start training the specialization imo |
Lilliana Stelles
911
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 12:13:00 -
[114] - Quote
PLEASE let us keep public certs.
Not that we need them.
But just don't remove them.
It's like the jukebox.
You never know when you might want it. Not a forum alt.-á |
Soaran Sikadi
Valkyries of Night Of Sound Mind
6
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 12:47:00 -
[115] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Soaran Sikadi wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:A few comments: - You should make T2 ammo usable in faction guns while you're at it.
-Liang
This doesn't really seem like a good idea to me. At the moment there is a notable tradeoff (isk value notwithstanding) when selecting between faction and T2 guns - one of them gives you more selection on projection, and one gives you more damage (at a pretty big price tag in most cases). This seems like a nice decision to have people make when fitting ships. Last I looked T2 guns actually outdamage faction by a fair amount once you factor in the specialization skill. The T2 ammo restriction to T2 guns means that T2 guns completely (and I do mean completely) obsolete faction guns. -Liang
This depends on the level of faction and the level of specialization. For example, at specialization 1 (yes, this is a little unlikely) even the Federation Navy blasters will outdamage T2 ones. At the highest end of faction, the special forms of guns will even outdamage someone with a specialization of 5. |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
2735
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 13:54:00 -
[116] - Quote
Good feedback, replying to some points:
- Is the ship itself required in the mastery level?
No, the ship competency itself is dealt through Spaceship Command skills, which is shown int he "requirement" tab and through the relevant skill icon. Spaceship Command skills tell you if you can fly the ship or not, masteries give a recommend ship layout. Both are relevant.
- How about Tech2 ammunition, will the skill requirements change too?
Yes, all the Tech2 ammos require the Turret specialization skills, which are the ones being changed in the first place - sorry, should have been clearer in the blog.
- That's all nice and fancy, but what are you doing with HULL TANKING ELITE? Because it's a well-known fact that REAL MEN HULL HONOR TANK.
CCP Rise mentioned this issue a while back - this Certificate will go away in the new system (merged within Armor certificate). However, since it's serious business, we'll look into several options, but no promises
- Are there any ways to expose, or share skill proficiencies?
We are removing the "set as public" option for certificates, so not for now, but with the use of the API we're fairly sure third-party applications will take over.
- In the blog, why do all Turrets require "Large / Medium / Small Turret" at 4 except for Amarr turrets, that are at 5?
It's a typo, they all require level 5. If you look on the same screenshot, under the sub-requirements, level 5 is needed as part of the specialization skill anyway.
- Why do you require useless skills like "Astronautics Rigging" 5 for level 5 Certificates / Masteries?
Level 5 Certificates and Masteries mean that the player has totally maxed all skills available for that ship hull, no matter their relevance. It's meant as a very-high level goal and status symbol. It's to be able to say, that like the Immortals in the Persian Army in that 300 movie, you have everything trained and part of the elite. Well, until you meet some half-naked loincloth dudes with HULL TANKING ELITE guarding that Thermopylae chokepoint that is. Then you're screwed
- Could we get notification / pop-ups when unlocking achievements?
You could, and that's a fair point. I'll forward that around.
|
|
Velicitia
Emergent Avionics
1612
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 13:59:00 -
[117] - Quote
Been looking this over for a while, and you're kind of breaking things in a bad way.
OK, I get reducing the number of certificates might be a good thing, and from your example with a Mega, it works. However, what if I am (for example) a 'dictor pilot, and just looking to get the "Elite" (er l5/Master) certificates ... no big deal, except that in order to get "Navigation 5" for my awesome 'dictor, I NEED to train Micro Jump Drive to L5. Unless you're also adding those in as "small" modules now, it's adding a lot of pointless training time to show that I'm "as awesome as possible" at flying a dictor.
Also, keeping some of the useless certificates (Hull Tanking Elite) adds to the flavor without adding "needless complexity" ... also having that public is just hilarious. One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
16735
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 14:17:00 -
[118] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: In the blog, why do all Turrets require "Large / Medium / Small Turret" at 4 except for Amarr turrets, that are at 5? It's a typo, they all require level 5. If you look on the same screenshot, under the sub-requirements, level 5 is needed as part of the specialization skill anyway. GǪjust want to point out that Gǣneeded for the specialisation anywayGǥ doesn't mean it's actually needed for the weapon in question, so make sure this typo doesn't go live.
The difference is, of course, that as they were written in that image, you could lose the fifth level of hybrids and projectiles and still be able to use the T2 weapons, but not be able to do the same with lasers. After all, a pre-req to a pre-req is meaningless in terms of restricting your access to the item once you've passed that layer.
It may not make a difference for the training required to use something, but it makes a hellalot of difference for maintaining that ability and actually using the item. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan 2.0. |
Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
1017
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 14:39:00 -
[119] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: Why do you require useless skills like "Astronautics Rigging" 5 for level 5 Certificates / Masteries? Level 5 Certificates and Masteries mean that the player has totally maxed all skills available for that ship hull, no matter their relevance. It's meant as a very-high level goal and status symbol. [/b]
Except you removed the public option, so it's really not much of a symbol at all.
If you want an option for "turned it all the way up to 11" then that's fine. But keep it distinct from the core certificate system that is meant to be used as a learning guide.
For something like this I can't help but feel that Certificate V should be excellence in the field. Not "Spent months training skills to V which no-one would train to V except to say they'd trained them". |
1Robert McNamara1
The Graduates RAZOR Alliance
31
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 15:01:00 -
[120] - Quote
the certificate system has always contained needless 'Elite certs.' I think people like completing stuff like this. It's why video games provide a % Complete stat for your save game. This is the eve equivalent.
I also think CCP is wise to dump code no-one uses. If they have a feature, like 'make certs public' and the number of people using that feature is sub 0.1%, however people are achieving and accepting elite certs... then Drop the make public code, keep the elite certs, and make the whole thing more user friendly.
This is seriously a slam dunk. |
|
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
196
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 15:14:00 -
[121] - Quote
Sentient Blade wrote:If you want an option for "turned it all the way up to 11" then that's fine. But keep it distinct from the core certificate system that is meant to be used as a learning guide.
For something like this I can't help but feel that Certificate V should be excellence in the field. Not "Spent months training skills to V which no-one would train to V except to say they'd trained them".
- Consider levels 1-3 as core certificate system used as a learning guide.
- Consider level 4 as "excellence in the field".
- Ignore the existence of level 5.
- ???
- Profit!
|
Batelle
RisingSuns
167
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 15:17:00 -
[122] - Quote
These changes are all good. I only have one small thing to quibble over, and that's regarding ship masteries. Based on the megathron example, it appears that there is some kind of rule that level 1 mastery requires all relevant certificates at 1, level 2 mastery requires all relevant certificates at 2, and so on and so forth. If this is the case, this is overly simplistic and in my opinion defeats the purpose of having a separate classification of masteries. The shield reinforcement requirement on the megathron perfectly illustrates this. Let's say that level 2 megathron mastery does not require shield reinforcement, but level 3 does. In that case shield reinforcement shouldn't just start out as a level 3 certificate requirement, it should be at least one level lower than the armor requirement for the same level of mastery, to reflect that for a megathron, armor skills are WAY more important than shield skills, while still acknowledging that some shield skills are important, primarily because they are the low hanging fruit to increase your EHP once you already have good armor skills. The entire point of the certificate system is to make sure people grab the low hanging fruit before they train blaster spec 5 (and yes, I have met people that were training large blaster spec 5 while only having basic core skills at level 4).
Also, THIS:
Sentient Blade wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: Why do you require useless skills like "Astronautics Rigging" 5 for level 5 Certificates / Masteries? Level 5 Certificates and Masteries mean that the player has totally maxed all skills available for that ship hull, no matter their relevance. It's meant as a very-high level goal and status symbol. [/b] Except you removed the public option, so it's really not much of a symbol at all. If you want an option for "turned it all the way up to 11" then that's fine. But keep it distinct from the core certificate system that is meant to be used as a learning guide. For something like this I can't help but feel that Certificate V should be excellence in the field. Not "Spent months training skills to V which no-one would train to V except to say they'd trained them".
I've had this issue since the day the certificate system was introduced. I understand that "all skills maxed" is a design choice CCP has made. What we're trying to say is: This is a terrible design choice.
You are LITERALLY giving a gold star in exchange for people making suboptimal training choices. Considering that the point of the system is to quantify good training choices, this is a bad standard. Fighting is Magic |
|
CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
2738
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 15:25:00 -
[123] - Quote
Tippia wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: In the blog, why do all Turrets require "Large / Medium / Small Turret" at 4 except for Amarr turrets, that are at 5? It's a typo, they all require level 5. If you look on the same screenshot, under the sub-requirements, level 5 is needed as part of the specialization skill anyway. GǪjust want to point out that Gǣneeded for the specialisation anywayGǥ doesn't mean it's actually needed for the weapon in question, so make sure this typo doesn't go live. The difference is, of course, that as they were written in that image, you could lose the fifth level of hybrids and projectiles and still be able to use the T2 weapons, but not be able to do the same with lasers. After all, a pre-req to a pre-req is meaningless in terms of restricting your access to the item once you've passed that layer. It may not make a difference for the training required to use something, but it makes a hellalot of difference for maintaining that ability and actually using the item.
Already in the process of changing that to be consistent to 5 right now |
|
Luc Chastot
Daktaklakpak.
535
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 15:27:00 -
[124] - Quote
So the only relevant change here is the turret skills. Ok.
Rubicon is shaping up to be yet another disappointment. Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot. |
Harvey James
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
519
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 15:43:00 -
[125] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Tippia wrote:CCP Ytterbium wrote: In the blog, why do all Turrets require "Large / Medium / Small Turret" at 4 except for Amarr turrets, that are at 5? It's a typo, they all require level 5. If you look on the same screenshot, under the sub-requirements, level 5 is needed as part of the specialization skill anyway. GǪjust want to point out that Gǣneeded for the specialisation anywayGǥ doesn't mean it's actually needed for the weapon in question, so make sure this typo doesn't go live. The difference is, of course, that as they were written in that image, you could lose the fifth level of hybrids and projectiles and still be able to use the T2 weapons, but not be able to do the same with lasers. After all, a pre-req to a pre-req is meaningless in terms of restricting your access to the item once you've passed that layer. It may not make a difference for the training required to use something, but it makes a hellalot of difference for maintaining that ability and actually using the item. Already in the process of changing that to be consistent to 5 right now
any chance of reducing the need of sharpshooter skill? lv5 seems too much for LR guns when lv3 would do fine instead of forcing another lv5 skill to be trained? Tech 3's need to be multi role ships not cruiser hulls with battleship tank and insane resists ABC's are clearly T2 in all but name AB's need a buff-á like a big mass reduction ... module tiercide FTW role based instead of tiers please. |
Mashie Saldana
BFG Tech
734
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 15:45:00 -
[126] - Quote
Batelle wrote:You are LITERALLY giving a gold star in exchange for people making suboptimalterrible training choices. Considering that the point of the system is to quantify good training choices, this is a bad standard. Maybe put the gold star on level 4, and a dunce cap for level 5. You are free to stop training at level 4 but don't prevent the rest of us that want to turn things to 11 from having our shiny gold stars.
CCP Ytterbium, any chance we can have the number of Mastery 5's listed under our forum portraits? Mashie Saldana Dominique Vasilkovsky
|
Ransu Asanari
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
19
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 16:04:00 -
[127] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium can you address the concerns with the Gunnery Tiercide changes removing a previous distinction/advantage to the Missiles skill progression? Since it's not directly related to the changes to the certificate system, we can start a separate thread, or maybe it should have been kept separate in the first place. |
Texty
State War Academy Caldari State
77
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 16:46:00 -
[128] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote: It's meant as a very-high level goal and status symbol. I get your point, but I feel having skills like Astronautics Rigging at 5 would make me look rather stupid. Instead of admiring me for my "uberness," people would simply laugh at me for my wasting time. |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
196
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 17:39:00 -
[129] - Quote
Texty wrote:I get your point, but I feel having skills like Astronautics Rigging at 5 would make me look rather stupid. Instead of admiring me for my "uberness," people would simply laugh at me for my wasting time. I dunno, endgame achievements are almost always rather useless wastes of time in all games, yet they are still generally more admired than laughed at I would say.
Are people being laughed at for having say "Specialist Drone Operator Elite" or "Planetology Elite" currently? At least I haven't noticed. On the contrary people are being revered for achieving the holy grail of certificates "Hull Tanking Elite". |
Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
233
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 17:40:00 -
[130] - Quote
Ransu Asanari wrote:CCP Ytterbium can you address the concerns with the Gunnery Tiercide changes removing a previous distinction/advantage to the Missiles skill progression? Since it's not directly related to the changes to the certificate system, we can start a separate thread, or maybe it should have been kept separate in the first place. This please. Missile training time is now (even more) awful compared to gunnery than it was before. |
|
Aliventi
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
507
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 17:41:00 -
[131] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium any comment on the base missile skill SP rebalance now that turrets no longer need to train the smaller size turrets anymore? "tbh most people don't care about removing local from highsec. They want it gone from nullsec. I want to be able to solo roam hunt without everyone knowing I am there without them actually seeing me jump through the gate. Effortless intel is bad." ~Me |
ExookiZ
The Dark Space Initiative Scary Wormhole People
95
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 18:05:00 -
[132] - Quote
are corp certificates a real thing? or are you just teasing us with a possible feature you thought would be cool but have no plans of implementing? whether or not I care at all about this dev blogs depends on the answer to that question. The Wormhole Kid |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation Goonswarm Federation
5821
|
Posted - 2013.10.01 22:30:00 -
[133] - Quote
Totally called the weapons skill changes. My YouTube Videos Latest video: August 25, 2013 |
Kasumi 'Goto
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 02:48:00 -
[134] - Quote
I would really appreciate a response from a dev on the imbalance of missile training aswell. This makes it quite disadvantageous to train missiles when you can get a turret system trained much sooner. |
Daler Farmon
Dark Angel's Legion Nite's Reign
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 04:23:00 -
[135] - Quote
As newbie in this game I want to say, you have done a great damn job by taking out all other medium and small specs from T2 guns and etc relevant ones. That's amazing decision, cuz I was looking at requirements for T2 Railgun and I was like 82 days away.. now it should be done in 24+days which is perfect!!. Thanks so much from beginners of this game;) |
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CCP Ytterbium
C C P C C P Alliance
2751
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 09:42:00 -
[136] - Quote
Sorry, there is nothing planned for missile requirements right now. However, we'll need to have a full module tiericide at some point, and this could be a good thing to look at then.
Also remember, training a Tech2 turret faster doesn't necessarily mean you can effectively use it without the support skills. |
|
Kasumi 'Goto
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 11:51:00 -
[137] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Sorry, there is nothing planned for missile requirements right now. However, we'll need to have a full module tiericide at some point, and this could be a good thing to look at then.
Also remember, training a Tech2 turret faster doesn't necessarily mean you can effectively use it without the support skills.
If someone training missiles wants all 3 tiers and there long and short range variants they have to spend aprox. 2.5 mill more in SP. This is weeks of training turret users don't have to spend for a single turret system. This gives them weeks of time to train other skills such as support skills for turrets. CCP's attitude towards missiles is very discouraging. |
Jim Parsons
Bazinga Incorporated
8
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 16:18:00 -
[138] - Quote
The Gunnery Tiericide should be implemented in a seperate patch sooner than the expansion (within the next 2 weeks). It's not fair to those training Large (gun) Turret V right now without having trained Small and Medium yet to have to decide whether to wait until the expansion to be able to use Large T2 guns. The other option is to reimburse skillpoints for any levels trained in both Small and Medium (gun) Turret if Large (gun) Turret is at V when the expansion is released. |
Aliventi
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
507
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 18:34:00 -
[139] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Sorry, there is nothing planned for missile requirements right now. However, we'll need to have a full module tiericide at some point, and this could be a good thing to look at then.
Also remember, training a Tech2 turret faster doesn't necessarily mean you can effectively use it without the support skills. How far away is that? You have a better idea of all the ships that still need to be rebalanced before a mod tiericide and how long that will take than most anyone else. It seems like such a shame to have missile users train twice as hard, to the tune of over 2.3 mil SP which is over a month to two months of training time if they train all levels, to be just as effective as their turret based counterparts in the mean time. "tbh most people don't care about removing local from highsec. They want it gone from nullsec. I want to be able to solo roam hunt without everyone knowing I am there without them actually seeing me jump through the gate. Effortless intel is bad." ~Me |
JamnOne
Jammin Corp
11
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 19:09:00 -
[140] - Quote
Hey CCP Ytterbium,
I have a question about this part.
"if you have Amarr Cruisers at level 1 but lose Amarr Destroyers 3 for some unlikely reason, it will keep showing 0 days since you can still fly the Arbitrator."
If I am reading this right it sounds like that if my clone isn't up to date and I die (as I usually do...lol) and lose Destroyer 3 I can still fly cruisers. Does this mean I can still level up Cruisers since I have already trained it to one and then progress to HACs without ever having to train the Destroyer ship again? |
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Chris Winter
Zephyr Corp V.A.S.T.
233
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 19:39:00 -
[141] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Sorry, there is nothing planned for missile requirements right now. However, we'll need to have a full module tiericide at some point, and this could be a good thing to look at then.
Also remember, training a Tech2 turret faster doesn't necessarily mean you can effectively use it without the support skills. Except that missile users still have to train support skills.
Congratulations on completely missing the point. Before, missiles were faster to specialize in one specific thing but slower to get everything. Now, turrets are always faster.
If missile split skills aren't getting changed to match gunnery yet, gunnery T2 progression shouldn't be changed to match (actually,be significantly faster than) T2 missile progression yet. |
Ransu Asanari
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
22
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 19:59:00 -
[142] - Quote
CCP Ytterbium wrote:Sorry, there is nothing planned for missile requirements right now. However, we'll need to have a full module tiericide at some point, and this could be a good thing to look at then.
Also remember, training a Tech2 turret faster doesn't necessarily mean you can effectively use it without the support skills.
Thanks for confirming this. I'll start a separate thread to discuss, so it doesn't distract from the certification changes.
I think it's been said by a few people, but this change to the Gunnery skill progression further highlights the disparity between the Missile weapon system in its current state. |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
196
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 20:52:00 -
[143] - Quote
JamnOne wrote:If I am reading this right it sounds like that if my clone isn't up to date and I die (as I usually do...lol) and lose Destroyer 3 I can still fly cruisers. Does this mean I can still level up Cruisers since I have already trained it to one and then progress to HACs without ever having to train the Destroyer ship again? Yep, you don't even have to train it to 1, just injecting the cruiser skill while you still have Destroyer 3 is enough. After that you don't need the nested prerequisite again. |
polvo zangado
Super Muppets Accumulated Space Holding Inc
0
|
Posted - 2013.10.02 22:08:00 -
[144] - Quote
Great you make changes after I collected all the certificates. |
Daler Farmon
Dark Angel's Legion Nite's Reign
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 03:40:00 -
[145] - Quote
A question to officials: Does the tech2 Ammo requirements will be also changed for t2 guns? Because they all have the same per-requsites to be used.. It will be very strange to get t2 gun faster then t2 ammo, hopefully u will make requirements for t2 ammo the same as t2 guns.
Thanks |
Rob Crowley
State War Academy
197
|
Posted - 2013.10.03 08:06:00 -
[146] - Quote
Daler Farmon wrote:A question to officials: Does the tech2 Ammo requirements will be also changed for t2 guns? Because they all have the same per-requsites to be used.. It will be very strange to get t2 gun faster then t2 ammo, hopefully u will make requirements for t2 ammo the same as t2 guns. Yes.
CCP Ytterbium wrote:How about Tech2 ammunition, will the skill requirements change too? Yes, all the Tech2 ammos require the Turret specialization skills, which are the ones being changed in the first place - sorry, should have been clearer in the blog. |
Jaden Soniel
Nasranite Watch OLD MAN GANG
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.05 11:13:00 -
[147] - Quote
You better upgrade that clone Baguetteman before someone pods you... |
Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
320
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 05:11:00 -
[148] - Quote
I think it lacks some ability to share or just be stupid.
Whatever can be seen like this should be sharable. "Show me" style in-game.
Example of "stupid" - a guy in a public channel heading for Jita talking about his pimp fit tengu then links it. 6 billion worth of fittings on it. *THAT* is stupid but it happens.
Nothing like this is in the design.
Not really stupid - you join up with an incursion (this gen or some future gen of it) and they want certain skills at certain levels to insure success. Is it possible to show them vs claims and such (thinking meta fits)?
In general - what may be exposed via the API - see that at least "current state" can also be exposed/shared in the game by that player. This doesn't seem to have that "share" factor in it. |
Nomistrav
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
193
|
Posted - 2013.10.07 20:44:00 -
[149] - Quote
These things might have already been mentioned, my bad if they were - I didn't read through the eight pages of previous posts.
Starting from the Rookie Ship:
- Rookie ship shouldn't have rigging skills in it's certifications being as it doesn't have rig slots anyway. Almost all of the certifications require multiple different rigging skills. - Why have all forms of sensor strengths if the ship only uses one type? - Micro Jump Drive Operation on a frigate???
Shuttle:
- Rigging skills again - Micro Jump Drive Operation... - Afterburner Operation..?
This applies to all frigates. Skills for things that the ship doesn't utilize (micro jump drive and sensor skills being the greatest common factor). Certain skills that aren't privy to what the ship is supposed to do (science for a Navitas???) [EDIT: Realized this was for Electronics Upgrades but.. Still kinda odd for the Navitas.] Advanced Targeting Management V for Frigates is redundant since there aren't any frigates that can utilize that many locked targets (that I'm aware of).
Essentially getting Mastery in a certain ship means that you invested a bunch of time into skills that have absolutely nothing to do with the ship itself, detracting new players from skilling into the things they truly need and focusing on the things that are useless to the ship itself. |
Viscount Hood
Gallivanting Travel Company Rebel Alliance of New Eden
65
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 05:56:00 -
[150] - Quote
are there any new certificates for capital ships?
something for us old timers to achieve? |
|
Nomistrav
A.N.O.N.Y.M.O.U.S.
199
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 14:03:00 -
[151] - Quote
Viscount Hood wrote:are there any new certificates for capital ships?
something for us old timers to achieve?
Yeah, but it's still got the weird issue(s) of things that you probably won't use. Hull upgrades being a rather humorous one, or sensor strength skills. |
EI7FPB 3
EI7FPB Ltd BR0WNC0ATS
3
|
Posted - 2013.10.08 16:19:00 -
[152] - Quote
License to kill: Certificates Overhaul
Hi, I don't know about you, but here is the way I see Certificates, a lot of players don't declare Certificates, because it give away you skill set, and like it or not, other players will use it against you.
Player talk about Certificates, on comms, in Alliance & Corp chat and with friend, but never in public.
Here is what I would like to see,
- Certificates Permissions to be ' Private, Corporation, Alliance, Public' - Alliance & Corp Certificates
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The back story
A corp CEO & Alliance boss, decides that over the next few weeks, there are going to be some Low-Sec mining ops, the Alliance has a few hundred players, he needs to find the Alliance members that have the skills he needs. He send out a mail calling for volunteers, Days later, he is still getting mails, ' Here is my API, do I have the skills you need ?', Who recruited these guys anyway . ( Note to self, replace the recruitment team ).
CCP introduce Alliance & Corp Certificates.
This will make the job a lot easier,
He creates some Alliance Certificates -- Basic Exhumers ( Skill required, Exhumers 3, Mining 4, Mining Upgrades 4, Etc... ) -- Pro Exhumers ( Skill required, Exhumers, T2 Strip Miner, T1 Mining Crystals Etc... ) -- Elite Exhumers ( Skill required, Exhumers, T2 Strip Miner, T2 Mining Crystals Etc... )
all so, Certificates for, Industrialist, Fleet Booster, Logis, Scouts, PvP ( The gate gang ), Etc...
He send out a mail calling for volunteers, On getting the mail player open their Character sheet, and go to Alliance & Corp Certificates, View the Certificates, on seeing all green check-marks on the skills required, they 'Claim the Certificate' and pay a small administration fee ( you have to pay tax, Lol ) and set the Permissions to Alliance.
The next day, the Low-Sec mining ops starts, Life is good in this Alliance.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Certificates are a VERY GOOD IDEA, they help players focus skill training, But the current and new Certificates are guides to skill training, in CCP opinion ( not all bad, some very good ).
But CEO, Alliance bosses, Fleet Commanders have other ideas, take the new ' Resource Processing - Salvaging Certificates' there is no mention of Tractor Beams or the Noctis. To me an Elite Salvager is somebody who can fly the Noctis ( Cap stable ), with T2 Salvagers & Tractor Beams, and can lock 10 targets, Skills required -- ORE Industrial 5 -- Salvaging 5 -- Science 5 -- Armor Rigging 5 -- Advanced Target Management 3 -- Etc..
Looking at the Noctis Information Window, the new Mastery tab, the level 5 Certificates in particular Core Ship Operation - Weapon Upgrades, Advanced Weapon Upgrades ( No weapons can be fitted to this ship ) Navigation - Micro Jump Drive Operation ( This module can not be fitted to this class of ship ) Targeting - Gravimetric Sensor Compensation, Ladar Sensor Compensation, Radar Sensor Compensation ( This ship has a Magnetometric Sensor )
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
CCP is doing a great job, by the way.
Skill Certificates is a BIG job, and everybody has their own opinion, on skill training.
If CCP dose basic Certificates like, Ship core ( CPU, Power, Cap, Tank ), Mining, Weapons, etc.. To get players started. And let the players look after the rest.
HELP US, TO HELP YOU.
. |
Marko from Tropoja
FROZEN HEADS Darkspawn.
1
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Posted - 2013.10.08 22:51:00 -
[153] - Quote
about new setification system
Check that image
MJD V for cruiser? what for? 12 targets for omen? it can possible only with 3 signal amplifiers II in low slots. Who will use that? Omen have radar sensors. Why must I have 3 other types in V for it?
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Buka Parallax
Eyes of Ra
0
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Posted - 2013.10.09 08:14:00 -
[154] - Quote
First off THANK YOU CCP for doing this. I was always confused as hell as a new player in how the certs worked and navigating the window (s) was frustrating. This is a big deal to me.
Can we have the ability to have a history tab of certs that were acquired to recall for us after an extended time between logins?
It is always nice to know what skills I trained between logins. Upon entering the game the skills history tab reminds me what skills were completed that I had in the queue.
Something similar for certs should also be done. For new players this is vital as they do not understand nor can remember what skills they had in the queue and completed after a few days of being away from the game. This quick reminder is very cool and brings you back up to speed. Certs should have a history tab as well.
Thanks |
Alexander the Great
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
143
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Posted - 2013.10.09 13:09:00 -
[155] - Quote
This mastery system is done totally wrong.
I don't need MJD for cruisers navigation. I don't need all 4 sensor compensations to fly one race.
You can't use general certificates to measure specific ship. Or you need to make certificates more general (i.e. remove MJD from navigation and create separate "battleship navigation").
Or why can't you just take skills that really affect given ship and then group them into categories? |
Viscount Hood
Gallivanting Travel Company Rebel Alliance of New Eden
66
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Posted - 2013.10.09 19:18:00 -
[156] - Quote
Nomistrav wrote:Viscount Hood wrote:are there any new certificates for capital ships?
something for us old timers to achieve? Yeah, but it's still got the weird issue(s) of things that you probably won't use. Hull upgrades being a rather humorous one, or sensor strength skills.
yep done that too and the capital skills.....
what else can a 2003 player do ... level 4 to 5 is my stable diet of skilling.. |
Mashie Saldana
BFG Tech
759
|
Posted - 2013.10.11 12:05:00 -
[157] - Quote
polvo zangado wrote:Great you make changes after I collected all the certificates. Now you get to collect them all again, for twice the pleasure.
To be fair, you should have most of them already and now you can aim to get all Mastery 5's as well. Mashie Saldana Dominique Vasilkovsky
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Vassal Zeren
Uncontrollable Innovations
95
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Posted - 2013.10.13 22:27:00 -
[158] - Quote
Will Capital guns still require large guns 5? Seems anti specialization, to me. just how is module tiericide going CCP? A bad analogy is like a leaky screwdriver. |
Arcos Vandymion
The Advent of Faith Standing United.
19
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Posted - 2013.10.22 12:48:00 -
[159] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:A few comments: -snip- - You should make T2 ammo usable in faction guns while you're at it. -snip-
Don't forget Deadspace and Officer modules... Or simply make T2 Chages treat everything Meta5+ (Faction, Deadspace, Officer) as being able to use T2 charges - at least that would justify their ridiculously expensive prices somewhat (and would make them more expensive as well).
The way it is T2 Guns are simply put the best choice for weapons - the rest can't even compare.
I haven't gotten to check - but is Astronautic Engineering still in that Datacore certificate? You might want to kick the guy who put that in the excel sheet really hard (and do it personally - pictures or it didn't happen). Unless of course you bring it back and stuff.... along with Analytical Mind and stuff (precious metall coloured Magnates and luxurious yachts...)- so we can frown at people talking about perpetual motion units with more contempt. |
Carmen Electra
The Scope Gallente Federation
21
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Posted - 2013.10.25 17:50:00 -
[160] - Quote
Batelle wrote:You are LITERALLY giving a gold star in exchange for people making suboptimalterrible training choices. Considering that the point of the system is to quantify good training choices, this is a bad standard. Maybe put the gold star on level 4, and a dunce cap for level 5.
THIS.
The only time to have a rigging skill to V is if you have one fit that you fly almost exclusively that doesn't work without that last 1-2% PG or CPU. This is arguably better achieved with an implant in most cases. Anyway, the point is that you are trying to make certs more useful and accessible. At first it seems like you recognize the flaw in certificates, but then you go and do this which makes it seem like you don't see the flaw after all.
Part of playing EVE well is knowing which skills to train and when. Level V skills should be chosen very strategically and very carefully as they have the potential to be a massive waste of SP. You're treating it like level V skills are l33t in an of themselves. As Batelle points out, skills like AWU V deserve a gold star while skills like gunnery spec skills and rigging skills at V deserve a dunce cap more often than not. |
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Ransu Asanari
Powder and Ball Alchemists Union The Predictables
45
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Posted - 2013.11.09 09:47:00 -
[161] - Quote
FYI here is the separate thread to discuss needed changes for missile skills. |
ebocan
Br0wn Coat5
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.14 14:53:00 -
[162] - Quote
I recently checked the certificates on Singularity and saw that Astronautic Engineering was required for datacore certificate under research. Explanation for this skill is "Skill and knowledge of Astronautics and its use in the development of advanced technology. This skill has no practical application for capsuleers, and proficiency in its use conveys little more than bragging rights. Can not be trained on Trial Accounts." It costs 19 billion ISK to get it in the market in JIta. I am in awe how this skill can be required for a newcomer who wanted to level up in research. I think it should be excluded from the certificates. What do you think ? |
Darius Rageheart
Borderlands corp True Reign
0
|
Posted - 2013.11.20 07:12:00 -
[163] - Quote
ebocan wrote:I recently checked the certificates on Singularity and saw that Astronautic Engineering was required for datacore certificate under research. Explanation for this skill is "Skill and knowledge of Astronautics and its use in the development of advanced technology. This skill has no practical application for capsuleers, and proficiency in its use conveys little more than bragging rights. Can not be trained on Trial Accounts." It costs 19 billion ISK to get it in the market in JIta. I am in awe how this skill can be required for a newcomer who wanted to level up in research. I think it should be excluded from the certificates. What do you think ?
What I think is that I logged into the forum tonight to complain about JUST THAT. I'm surprised you found a skillbook for sale at all, they haven't been available for literally years.
To have made this a per-requisit was an obvious oversight. |
Stridsflygplan
Tigers in the Snow Nyratic
75
|
Posted - 2013.11.23 09:47:00 -
[164] - Quote
There is an in game item called "Hull Tanking, Elite " but its only searchable in the contracts and there is no contract up for it. So probably none of these item around in the client yet. I want my hull tanking cert back! The last part of the description hint like if we all with hull tanking elite should have got one of these but maybe CCP forgot something...
Hull Tanking, Elite Description:
This certificate represents an elite level of competence in the infamous practice of "hull tanking". It certifies that the holder can fully use all modules relating to hull tanking. The holder is aware that "real men hull tank", and also that hull tanking is really dumb. With this certificate, you've maximised your ability to rely on your structural systems to absorb damage, although hopefully you're smart enough to know what a daft idea that is.
During a certificate system restructuring, CONCORD issued a physical copy of this certificate to ensure that those elite hull tankers would always be recognized (at least by themselves). |
Cronos Decendum
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2013.11.24 03:35:00 -
[165] - Quote
So how do I show and proof to my CEO I fulfill the prerequisites (beats requirements any day; replacing preschool words with toddler words does not improve anything) to fly a certain ship/doctrine without relying on third-party software CCP does NOT own or guarantee functionality of?
I used and was content with the old system. It was a bit out of date and could have used artful tweaking but it had its uses. A follow up system should always improve upon functionality/be able to do more then its predecessor. This new system actually takes options away which is always a bad thing. Nobody was forced to display certs but they could when they wanted or needed to.. That something is not a core system to be used every day does not mean it is purposeless and should be thrown out.
On a corporate level I do not think it wise CCP would put itself in a situation where it becomes dependent of third-party developers for certain game functions. Before you know you end up having to bribe them with real currency/isk/unique ships.. for their services..
Please think this through and restore the option to display certificates or trained skills ingame.
Dev Safe,
Radius |
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