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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 15 post(s) |
Kira Novia
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:25:00 -
[2851]
How-To Fix Nano-Issue:
Leave It Be! <<<~~~~ Suggested.
Possible Fix That Everyone Can Live With: Build inherent speed-limits into ships. Allowed them to be exceeded but at a cost. For every 100MS that breaks that speed limit, the hull begins to take damage. 100MS Exceed = X Damage Every X Seconds (varies depending on ship [ie: command ship would take less damage than a battlecruiser]. And whatnot.
You do this, you counter nano to a sensible and realistic extent. And don't screw the game royally. THIS will lead to variation.
And FFS: LEAVE MWD'S AND WEBS ALONE DAMN YOU CCP!
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:25:00 -
[2852]
Whoa there could you pyramid quote some more useless shit maybe
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:27:00 -
[2853]
Originally by: Haakelen Whoa there could you pyramid quote some more useless shit maybe
Originally by: Haakelen Whoa there could you pyramid quote some more useless shit maybe
Originally by: Haakelen Whoa there could you pyramid quote some more useless shit maybe
Originally by: Haakelen Whoa there could you pyramid quote some more useless shit maybe
Originally by: Haakelen Whoa there could you pyramid quote some more useless shit maybe
Originally by: Haakelen Whoa there could you pyramid quote some more useless shit maybe
Originally by: Haakelen Whoa there could you pyramid quote some more useless shit maybe
----------------- Friends Forever |
Han Renbai
Omerta Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:29:00 -
[2854]
Originally by: Ander Another new Dev listening to the loud carebears on forums who havent trained for hyenas/huginn/rapier or know how to fit web, and now wants to make a mark on the game.
These proposed changes will drive eve even more towards blobbing.
We'll be seeing big sac fleets, remote rep BS fleets and eagles now as the new flavor of the month PVP. Numbers will be everything, not skill-driven combat.
/signed
Counters for speed already exist, try using them.
By all means slow ships down a bit, but swing the nerf bat with finesse rather than taking the scatter gun approach you seem to be serious about. Scramblers that turn off MWD's? Ships with web bonuses that are well short of being effective? Sigh...
Who wants to fly a T2 frigate that is going to get wtfbbq'd by anything with light missiles? Or, omg, you going to fix defender missiles at last? No? Didn't think so.
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Galvatr0n
Gallente LEGI0N
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:29:00 -
[2855]
I do somewhat understand the speed nerfs although I think for the most part all you are doing is giving blobs more power. However:
WHAT THE **** ARE YOU THINKING WITH THE MWD NERF AND THE WEB NERF. You are completely ****ing up pvp. This is pure bullshit. You guys are ******s. WE ARE LEGI0N. WE DO NOT FORGIVE. WE DO NOT FORGET. EXPECT US. |
DeadDuck
Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:30:00 -
[2856]
Originally by: Equinox Daedalus CVA, as well as TLOS frown on such changes because we enjoy killing 700 mil isk hacs and recons in our well skilled/and talented gangs. However we know you will change things irregadless of what we say/kill/do
Plz listen to reason. Keep Nanogangs alive for the CVA antinano-pvp fleet. : )
yep, we became pretty dam good at it. We just need to skill up our Anti-Dread Tactics now
________________ God is my Wingman |
Kira Novia
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:33:00 -
[2857]
Originally by: Galvatr0n
WHAT THE **** ARE YOU THINKING WITH THE MWD NERF AND THE WEB NERF. You are completely ****ing up pvp. This is pure bullshit. You guys are ******s.
Quoted for speaking the ****ing truth about the worst mother****ing nerf-patch in EvE's history.
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Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:34:00 -
[2858]
NGEmpyrean Age amirite
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:34:00 -
[2859]
Originally by: DeadDuck
Originally by: Equinox Daedalus CVA, as well as TLOS frown on such changes because we enjoy killing 700 mil isk hacs and recons in our well skilled/and talented gangs. However we know you will change things irregadless of what we say/kill/do
Plz listen to reason. Keep Nanogangs alive for the CVA antinano-pvp fleet. : )
yep, we became pretty dam good at it. We just need to skill up our Anti-Dread Tactics now
But how? ----------------- Friends Forever |
Oniko Sengir
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:36:00 -
[2860]
Originally by: Haakelen NGEmpyrean Age amirite
ROFL
...
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Asume Nosami
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:38:00 -
[2861]
GG CCP. GG.
If this patch goes through, my subscription ends.
Nuff' said.
I've said everything I have to say.
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Alz Shado
Ever Flow HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:42:00 -
[2862]
Edited by: Alz Shado on 28/07/2008 19:42:38 Something needed to be done about the speed issue.
This is something.
QED. //// ---------=== []= ---------=== \\\\ Rifter(RedBad)
"Kill a man one is a murderer; kill a million, a conqueror; kill them all, a God." -- Jean Rostand |
Equinox Daedalus
Caldari The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:44:00 -
[2863]
if you would like information onto how to kill nano's you may simply convo/mail me in game and I'll gladly assit you as long as your not KOS to the CVA..
It requires ppl fly ships properly and fit them correctly and listen in orders/coms and dont' be foolish.
Only real problem I have with nanos is it pretty much removed the battlecruser from anything but random low sec pvp with the exception the the claymore/sleip/ and vulture for pvp.
I enjoy killing nanos when i can/have the time. I dont' enjoy warping to a hostile fleet and lagging/loading for 10-20 mins only to be almost dead without even seeing hostiles.(granted that was a bit more than jita local at the time).
Tbh it really just requires you to be patient and force them to engage on your terms rather than thiers.
The Legion of Spoon : Upon wings of wax I fly, never to close to the sun |
Haniblecter Teg
F.R.E.E. Explorer
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:45:00 -
[2864]
Originally by: Equinox Daedalus if you would like information onto how to kill nano's you may simply convo/mail me in game and I'll gladly assit you as long as your not KOS to the CVA..
It requires ppl fly ships properly and fit them correctly and listen in orders/coms and dont' be foolish.
Only real problem I have with nanos is it pretty much removed the battlecruser from anything but random low sec pvp with the exception the the claymore/sleip/ and vulture for pvp.
I enjoy killing nanos when i can/have the time. I dont' enjoy warping to a hostile fleet and lagging/loading for 10-20 mins only to be almost dead without even seeing hostiles.(granted that was a bit more than jita local at the time).
Tbh it really just requires you to be patient and force them to engage on your terms rather than thiers.
But how? More nanos and webs??? ----------------- Friends Forever |
Haakelen
Gallente Genesis Rising
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:46:00 -
[2865]
Haniblecter, if you're seriously not trolling, if you honestly have no clue about the many multitudes of ways to kill nanoships, you're even more pointless than I first assumed.
My views and opinions represent my corporation just fine, thanks. |
Sol Mortis
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:52:00 -
[2866]
These changes are a terrible idea. This seriously messes up people's long-trained skills and hard-earned ships, rigs, modules, and implants. I am not happy that months of planning and training for nano setups has been erased on a whim. Rigs and implants that people have invested hundreds of millions into are going to crash in value faster than the American economy. I am a Caldari in Faction War, and because we were getting pwned by nano gangs, I started training for my own nano setups and rapiers/huginns. The people complaining about nano can do the same, or come up with a different solution such as remote repair, Nosferatu, and sniping setups. I was in plenty of Caldari fleets where we fit for long range and chased off the nanos, even if we couldn't kill them they couldn't kill us.
CCP, instead of ruining a great part of the game that many people have invested enormous time and isk into; why don't you just give us new tools with which to combat nano ships rather than ruin those ships. The warp scramble changes to affecting MWD, if taken alone, are one good example of this idea. Perhaps web missiles or light web drones could be another alternative. Just don't ruin our ships, give us better equipment instead.
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Oniko Sengir
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:56:00 -
[2867]
Originally by: Haniblecter Teg
Originally by: Equinox Daedalus if you would like information onto how to kill nano's you may simply convo/mail me in game and I'll gladly assit you as long as your not KOS to the CVA..
It requires ppl fly ships properly and fit them correctly and listen in orders/coms and dont' be foolish.
Only real problem I have with nanos is it pretty much removed the battlecruser from anything but random low sec pvp with the exception the the claymore/sleip/ and vulture for pvp.
I enjoy killing nanos when i can/have the time. I dont' enjoy warping to a hostile fleet and lagging/loading for 10-20 mins only to be almost dead without even seeing hostiles.(granted that was a bit more than jita local at the time).
Tbh it really just requires you to be patient and force them to engage on your terms rather than thiers.
But how? More nanos and webs???
FFS, like he said, mail him in-game. No reason to give specifics here. (Except maybe the devs could use a few pointers...) And no of course it's not with more nanos, that's the point we're talking about here, this is about a conventional fleet.
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.28 19:58:00 -
[2868]
Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 20:15:14
Originally by: Haakelen Haniblecter, if you're seriously not trolling, if you honestly have no clue about the many multitudes of ways to kill nanoships, you're even more pointless than I first assumed.
Its kinda freaky as his kills seem to be a lot of recons and hacs on the first 2 pages although its mixed after that. And his losses are a mix of BS, BC, hacs and recons (A sigil and bestower too i tink we all gots a few of dem in our stats lol).
237 kills 37 losses so hardly ground shaking figures but not exactly sucky as far as k/d goes considering how he feels about the evils unkillable unbeatable nano peeps.
I would have thought 237 losses and 37 kills would have been closer the way you go on about nano ships tbh budski.
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Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:08:00 -
[2869]
This is some Mickey Mouse BS. You went from making the MWD the most used module to making it basically useless. If you wanted more counters against nano, then add more counters - don't nerf tons of ships. Just make missiles a tad better, keep the arazu-change and boost some tracking.
Honestly Nozh, stop defending this sinking ship of an idea, it's full of holes and you need to get back to the drawing board.
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Oniko Sengir
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:09:00 -
[2870]
Originally by: Andnowthenews Edited by: Andnowthenews on 28/07/2008 20:01:33
Originally by: Haakelen Haniblecter, if you're seriously not trolling, if you honestly have no clue about the many multitudes of ways to kill nanoships, you're even more pointless than I first assumed.
Its kinda freaky as his kills seem to be a lot of recons and hacs on the first 2 pages although its mixed after that. And his losses are a mix of BS, BC, hacs and recons (A sigil and bestower too i tink we all gots a few of dem in our stats lol).
237 kills 37 losses so hardly ground shaking figures but not exactly sucky as far as k/d goes considering how he feels about the evils unkillable unbeatable nano peeps.
I would have thought 237 losses and 37 kills would have been closer the way he goes on about nano ships tbh.
iknowwhoyouare!
Also, yeah but I see vagas and stuff on there with him, so it looks like he could be legit about not knowing how to kill them without nanos of his own.
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Andnowthenews
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:14:00 -
[2871]
Originally by: Oniko Sengir
iknowwhoyouare!
Tells meee coz iz forgotz
Originally by: Oniko Sengir
Also, yeah but I see vagas and stuff on there with him, so it looks like he could be legit about not knowing how to kill them without nanos of his own.
I suppose but they hardly show a dude who has been royaly bent over by nano's and a lack of pvp education is hardly a valid reason for a nerf.
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Ranger 1
Amarr Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:17:00 -
[2872]
Originally by: XxAngelxX
Originally by: Ranger 1 Edited by: Ranger 1 on 28/07/2008 18:04:26
Originally by: XxAngelxX To the raven pilot - Fit heavy neuts and you will kill a nano gang that outnumbers you, or at least cause them to run away. Kill drones with your drones, and fit a cap booster. Basically, fit for PVP.
To the rest - I've given up with this, I'm not coming on sisi for "testing" as it will no way resemble TQ. I've read the changes, I disagree with them. Fighters killing hacs, PVP will be more static now than ever.
Looking at a missile change? What.
Trying to fix a glass with a sledgehammer, gg CCP.
Angel, you know that Neut isn't going to save that Raven pilot. Shame on you.
And it's a shame that you won't test things out, your input would be very valuable.
I would, however, like to see the fighters that are going to be able to keep up with nano ships doing over 2km/sec, as that is still entirely possible.
I'm just relying on what others said in the sisi testing thread.
What's the point in testing it, testing is to find bugs not to decide whether its a good idea or not, they've obviously already decided it is a good idea.
And yes actually neuts will screw up a small nano gang, Wargod and I have met many chinese farmers with them fitted and they hurt our vagas a lot Also using ECM drones on a tackling scout is hella annoying too
Anyway, me and my whiney friends are purely arguing for something we believe is good for the game, small skirmish PVP, skills that we have trained for years, isk we have spent, and fun we have had.
Many of the Anti-nerf people have already expressed that yes, maybe speed needed to be looked at (in the way of bringing polys inline with nanos) but the way this has been handled is somewhat reprehensible and leaves me with less respect for the management at CCP than before.
Eve was supposed to be a "cold, dark place" (can't remember who from CCP said it, but they did) and now it is turning into a laggy, mission running hell, rewarding the masses instead of those who excel in different aspects of eve. What is there to aim for now? Who can put up and run the most pos? Who can field the most caps?
The biggest skill now will be in recruitment and PR
I'm patiently waiting until I can get home and run some proper tests. If these changes to too far the other direction, you will have my support in this.
I don't think many truly want to see speed tanking become infeasable... a little trickier to do correctly yes, but not infeasable.
I personally want to have to sweat a bit when speed tanking (cause if your sweating, your having fun eh?). I think we are all agreed on chopping the upper end of the scale way back. The splitting of hairs will come when deciding what an "average" speed tank pilot should have to deal with.
I can see that to fix this correctly several things may need to be adjusted at once. Whether the correct things have been chosen to adjust, and if they have been adjusted to the correct degree, will take some time and tweaks to figure out.
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Aenis Veros
Caldari Alphaflight
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:30:00 -
[2873]
Edited by: Aenis Veros on 28/07/2008 20:35:26 CCP, I want you to test these things:
1. 5 guys in Vagabond, Ishtar, Falcon, Rapier, Huginn go through a 0.0 gatecamp with a bubble and 20:ish ships. Pre-patch they can get into 0.0 with a very small chance of dying. Why is this important? It is important because it gives a small gang the chance of getting into hostile space and doing guerrilla warfare.
Questions:
a) Is the intention that a defending gang of 20 should always win in this scenario? Eg. if they have one or two arazu, should that be the end of anyone trying to get through? Eg. place sensor-boosted arazu's on 0 at the gate and activate mod = dead nano ships = end of guerrilla?
b) If that is the intention, then please provide me how you mean that guerrilla warfare is still possible? Eg. small gang can engage a bigger gang or at least get away from it? How is it, do you say that this tactic would still be viable? From my tests the Arazu is the new ship that you HAVE to have in a gang. Seems imbalanced.
c) If that is not the intention, then at the very least provide nano ships with a module to stop one scram from disabling your MWD.
2. Have 4 nanoships engage 4 drakes on a gate, using the current transversal & speed mechanics. When we tried it, it resulted in four very dead nanoships because at no time did the speed provide enough protection versus the missiles for the four nano ships to do anything against the 4 drakes. With four cerberuses it was even worse. And if we removed one drake and replaced it with an Arazu, it was extremely one-sided. To us it seemed as though you now want very predictable warfare. Whoever puts the most missile ships on a gate, wins. How is this a more tactical option?
Having a falcon coming along with the nano-gang didn't work either, as soon as the falcon uncloaked we managed to jam the Arazu, but the drakes loaded F.O.F's which made the falcon go popsicle, and with the setups we had to use to gain any speed there was simply not enough damaged caused by our nano-ships to bust the camp. In one trial we managed to kill the Arazu (losing the falcon), but then we had to get away. If it had been a 20 man gatecamp there would be a 90-95% chance of all of us dying. Making big gatecamps the be-all-end-all of controlling space and stopping small incursions.
You may wish to evade this empiric evidence all you want, I am warning you. The causality of this change actually goes against what you intend to accomplish. You wish the warfare to become less predictible. More tactical, and keep the option of guerrilla warfare.
It is my conclusion that the patch in it's current form very much goes against that intent, and instead breaks the option for smaller groups to have a viable way of at the very least get away from "the blob".
----
Here are some of the ideas from the test-group:
a) Make so that all 0.0-gates you decloak at a 30km distance from the gate. This way it will be more difficult to plug the gates and leaves room for smaller gangs to get through still.
b) Add a module that "protects" the MWD. From getting Arazu'd (eg. stops the anti-MWD effect).
c) Keep nano the way it is, but make it so while an MWD is activated you are unable to target anything. Provide all interceptors+assault ships with a bonus that evades this change.
d) Change the webs, but make the rapier & arazu instead of a target painting bonus have a web amount bonus. Add this bonus to the Bellicose as well, making the bellicose slightly less useless
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Eternal Error
Exitus Acta Probant
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:35:00 -
[2874]
Go to the assembly hall and cast your vote either FOR or AGAINST this patch.
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Cloue
Gallente Stripping Agency
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:43:00 -
[2875]
The game will lose alot of customers if this patch goes through FACT ---------------------------------------------- 8 out of 10 Owners who Expressed a Preference said Their Cats Preferred Gallente Stripping Agency. |
Kira Novia
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:44:00 -
[2876]
Originally by: Eternal Error Go to the assembly hall and cast your vote either FOR or AGAINST this patch.
Done & done.
Voted casted AGAINST this patch.
That is all.
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Mavi Gioia
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:45:00 -
[2877]
Edited by: Mavi Gioia on 28/07/2008 20:45:28
Originally by: Ranger 1
Originally by: Euriti
Originally by: Ranger 1
Some of the more extreme abuses of the system will be curbed, average speed of a nano gang may drop slightly
You know the 4km vaga fit with 2x Aux thruster II, 2x OD and HG snakes? You know how fast this goes on TQ atm?
7,3km/s. It goes 4km/s after the patch. This is not a slight drop, this is a MASSIVE drop that will eliminate speedtanking.
That would be one of the more extreme cases I mentioned now wouldn't it? As I said, the average speed of your typical nano gang won't be impacted nearly that much.
And no, the only people that will stop speed tanking are the people that never really knew how to do it well... but had enough isk to invest in equipment that they were able to get great results regardless. Those folks will simply turn to whatever the new flavor of the month is.
Are you stupid? If a T2 rig/HG snakes setup goes 4k, what do you think us regular shmoes will hit? 2.5k? 2k? Also known as oh look you just got ****d by heavy missiles speed.
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Eric Lendall
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:49:00 -
[2878]
@ Devs: These changes are really bad. I don't like any of them. I don't think that they would make EVE a better game, and I think the changes cause more problems than they eliminate. Also, the web change/nerf is completely unnecessary. Webs are not an overpowered module unless they're fitted on a Huggin/Rapier. Don't bend to the carebear whiners who can't figure out which end of the gun is supposed to point at the enemy, and then get owned in PVP and cry "it's cuz he was nano'd!" when in reality, they were beaten because they are ignorant, and haven't had enough PVP experience to know how to fit and fly their ships properly and went up against someone who simply had more skillpoints, a better ship (many times more expensive, fitted for pvp, etc.) and knew the game mechanics better than them.
In short, it would be a BAD COURSE OF ACTION TO IMPLEMENT THESE PROPOSED CHANGES.
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Markas Crais
House of Dying Laggers
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:50:00 -
[2879]
I really hate this MWD nerf + Warp Scram boost. You're giving Scrams two functions which seems too powerful in my opinion. Put scripts on Scrams for something like range boost or point boost (I don't know exactly, that's to be worked out), but don't give them the option to turn off MWDs as well. If you plan on doing that then make a new module to shut off MWDs.
And seriously, +500% speed boost across the board for MWDs is ridiculous. MWDs were fine the way they are. If you need to improve ABs then change them, don't fix something that's not already broken.
I haven't had time to test how bad the speed nerf is but I'll be sure to comment on that as well when I get the chance.
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Natalia Kovac
Minmatar Phoenix Tribe
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Posted - 2008.07.28 20:54:00 -
[2880]
Originally by: Xyleya Straight from SiSi...
Vagabond:
10MN MWD II (Acc. Control LvL 5) 3x OD II
No implants, hardwirings or rigs = 3500m/sec.
And yes... 3x OD II is the best you can do with the now changed Nanofiber's or Polycarbons.
What's it hit with the same but 2x poly?
That could be... almost reasonable. If Disruptors didn't kill your mwd that is.
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