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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Arikanaiz
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:02:00 -
[1]
I am start a formal petition to eliminate the missile nerf that has been put into effect with the release of the Queantum Rise Expansion. According to these new "changes" missiles of all sizes are relatively ineffective against ships. Every "class size" that the missiles are designed to target can move faster than the missile's explosion velocity. Therefore, the only way to get your BASE damage back is to target something bigger than your missiles were made to shoot. Even then the speed of the vehicle is still faster than your missile explosion velocity and decreases the damage. So I ask you to sign your name and or comments to this petition to return missiles to thier old already WEAK state.
Arikanaiz--
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Blindfall
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:05:00 -
[2]
/signed
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Viriatus
Amarr Ateagina Heavy Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:08:00 -
[3]
Signed!
For my experience: Mission Runners are f***ed, lol! They will make about 80% less ISK per hour.
Well done CCP you definatly killed that ISK farmers.
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Evil Pookie
BURN EDEN Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:08:00 -
[4]
my raven is useless..... respecing to amarr http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVrN-Rv2VEs |
Rahlstin
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:10:00 -
[5]
Missile issue is a very negative change. Please reverse.
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Atrosity
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:13:00 -
[6]
/Signed
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Dr Booya
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:15:00 -
[7]
Yeah, I don't get why they keep nerfing caldari, too bad we all trained so long to have usable missile skills only to have CCP take away the whole reason we trained missiles to begin with not once but twice now!
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Pheonix Dragoon
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:15:00 -
[8]
/signed...not that they will listen. Best way to make them listen is for people that are fed up with all this nerfing to just quit Eve until they correct the mistakes.
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Patri Andari
Thukker Tribe Antiquities Importer
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:16:00 -
[9]
No other weapon system is limited to doing its full damage to ships in a higher class. I understand limiting the ability to do full damage to a lower class, but heavy missiles (including T2) should do full damage to cruisers just like cruiser sized beams, rails and arty. Cruise missiles (including T2) should do full damage to BS just like BS sized beams, rails and arty and so on.
In other words...
/signed
Patri
A fool usually thinks he is a genius |
Tonto Indian
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:16:00 -
[10]
Signed
OMG... I have 10,954,849 skill points in missle launchers alone and now it's all for nothing. I can't even play anymore... I only have 1 million SP in gunnery. This is HORRIBLE.
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Mara Kell
Steel Beasts Sev3rance
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:16:00 -
[11]
Im not running missions at all with missiles, but im SIGNING because my Sacrilege got nerfed...
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su ling
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:21:00 -
[12]
i am opposed to the missile nerf and the dang speed nerf on the battle ship CNR
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Irine Archer
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:27:00 -
[13]
CCP went to far with this one
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Skwiche
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:37:00 -
[14]
Signed o/
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Dracthera
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:43:00 -
[15]
No impact to running missions in a NH/Drake on L4s. How are the CNR/Ravens performing if you add painters and/or flare rigs?
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Mire Stoude
Cash Money Brothers
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:51:00 -
[16]
Now now. If we give them a few years, they will probably realize that speed tanking shouldn't mean going faster than 52m/s.
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Hamshaft
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Posted - 2008.11.12 02:55:00 -
[17]
SIGNED
Unless +1 mid to all missile boats for purposes of a painter.
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Oktacon
Caldari Exiled. Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:10:00 -
[18]
Just signing because a Hyperion was speed tanking my Raven. That was a bit ridiculous
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UrsaeMajoris
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:11:00 -
[19]
Edited by: UrsaeMajoris on 12/11/2008 03:12:47 /signed
Thank you CCP for making my raven need 2 webbers and 2 painters to hit for full damage against BS with rage torps.
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Ethaet
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:19:00 -
[20]
/signed
Account cancelled, 1 month until I leave and never look back. -------------------------------------------------------------- Seriously, we need some kind of separation between the post and signature. There you go. Now that wasn't so hard |
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Bad Messenger
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:20:00 -
[21]
Missiles are just fine, iŠll change my skill plans to amarr, then i do not have to whine about missiles.
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Arikanaiz
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:20:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Oktacon Just signing because a Hyperion was speed tanking my Raven. That was a bit ridiculous
Ladies and gentlemen, this new "change" to missiles allows any ship at any time to speed tank any missile boat at any time. Webbers, lower the effective tank that out ships can have, thus unbalancing the pvp aspect of any missile player further. When a Hyperion, with a massive tank already, throws on an afterburner, all the faction fittings in the universe won't help a Raven. Even a Hyperion with no speed mods, can't be beaten by a fully faction/officer fit raven due to the simple fact that even at its base speed, they Hyperson is faster than the explosion velocity of even a HEAVY ASSULT MISSILE. A HAM has an explosion velocity of 101m/s now, and even the basest of battleships has a faster base speed than 101m/s If a HAM can't hit a battleship for full damage, what the point in all my skillpoints in missiles skills, what the point in the countless wasted hours of training missile skills?
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Musashibou Benkei
Caldari Combined Imperial Fleet
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:23:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Pheonix Dragoon /signed...not that they will listen. Best way to make them listen is for people that are fed up with all this nerfing to just quit Eve until they correct the mistakes.
/signed also. How does CCP even justify the LOGIC in a cruise missile having an explosion velocity of 69m/s?
I was about to blow up a Sin on sisi when he realised he was being owned so he started to run away from me. It was bloody annoying to see my explosive torps go from doing 780 damage per missile to 130 damage cos he had an afterburner fit. ffs
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razboinicul
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:25:00 -
[24]
/signed. These missile changes suck really bad. I trained those skills for nothing. |
Rail Gun
Caldari Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:30:00 -
[25]
SIGNED
We have tested missiles now and they are totally worthless... BS can speed tank part of torpedeos damage only by MOVING without MWD ot AB. Missiles are totally busted now, I'm really hapy I have cross trained gallente and minnie ships and gunnery.
Missiles weren't that good before, why did they had to totally broke them.
P.S. Caldari Militia will have some problems ahead...
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RahAh nZanhOrR
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:34:00 -
[26]
Like any good socialist country where the morally "superieur" elite plays to the whining weak to get their vote. CCP has decided to cash in the Amarr, Minmatar and Gallente vote by nerfing Missile Skills AGAIN! Maybe all Caldari Ship Players should start petition CCP to get their money back for all those months spent on missile skill training. Since that has now been a waste of time and your money.
The upside is that Ravens will go over the counter for like 20Mil in 1 month. //signed//
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Arrakis Redcloud
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:35:00 -
[27]
signed
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Dark 'Shadow
Talocan Technologies
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:38:00 -
[28]
Might want to post this in assembly hall.
/signed
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Verstal
Amarr Incredibuilders United
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:45:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Verstal on 12/11/2008 03:47:44 /signed a 1000x
along with the changes to the Speed, Faction Mods and everything else you did in this patch you can take it back and give us a game we like again. How many accounts are being canceled, that's all I want to know.
Oh yeah I forgot to mention during the LiveDev Blog that the Zulu stated that our opinion doesn't matter to the developers, besides being priceless jackassery that made me feel special, I doubt anything will change the declining state of Eve.
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SenshiMaru
The Cruisers
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Posted - 2008.11.12 03:54:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Rail Gun We have tested missiles now and they are totally worthless... BS can speed tank part of torpedeos damage only by MOVING without MWD ot AB.
you mean they work exactly like all the other types of guns? *mind blown*
It is my opinion that this is exactly how missles SHOULD work but everyone is just used to them being broken.
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Chaos Hellbreth
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Posted - 2008.11.12 04:05:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Chaos Hellbreth on 12/11/2008 04:10:11 /signed. There should be no such thing as "explosion velocity" for missiles. Isn't the signature radius enough? That alone should prevent us(if done correctly) from wrecking smaller vessels while allowing us to keep the dps up against ships of our own size.
As for the previous posters argument that missiles work the same way as turrets, no, not really. The thing screwing over turrets is tracking, and that becomes less of an issue with increased range, and ships at close range will almost undoubtedly fit webs instead (which btw, you cant do with cruise and long range missiles...) so the tracking issue isn't as big for them as the explosion velocity thing is for us.
Also, let us not forget that missiles also have the minor issue of not being able to hit an opponent whatsoever if that oponent is heading away from the missile at a velocity greater than the missile itself. I don't know to what extent the speed nerf might have effected this, but considering base velocity for a missile is about 3.5km/s I dont think it's difficult for a well fit ship to zoom away from one (or at least move fast enough to get out of range of the missile before it hits them...).
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.11.12 04:33:00 -
[32]
signed. Fix this problem
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 04:34:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Cpt Branko on 12/11/2008 04:35:40 Only after they fix webs, and make damn scramblers non-mandatory modules (and less overpowered then now, instant full stop is silly, and even sillier after agility changes since now you deaccelerate much faster).
Missile nerf is just as balanced as the 400% tracking nerf in webrange, and the inferiority of even dual webs compared to scramblers for holding people down.
Reap what you sow.
Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
Nebulous
Minmatar Thukker Insurgents
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Posted - 2008.11.12 04:42:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Chaos Hellbreth and ships at close range will almost undoubtedly fit webs instead (which btw, you cant do with cruise and long range missiles...) so the tracking issue isn't as big for them as the explosion velocity thing is for us.
Did you not notice that webs have been nerfed as well? Did you not notice that the Battleships that need to get into web range have had their speed nerfed? Sorry but believe it or not it's not only missile ships that have been nerfed, get used to the changes.
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Cpt Branko
Surge.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 04:50:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Nebulous
Originally by: Chaos Hellbreth and ships at close range will almost undoubtedly fit webs instead (which btw, you cant do with cruise and long range missiles...) so the tracking issue isn't as big for them as the explosion velocity thing is for us.
Did you not notice that webs have been nerfed as well? Did you not notice that the Battleships that need to get into web range have had their speed nerfed? Sorry but believe it or not it's not only missile ships that have been nerfed, get used to the changes.
Webs have been nerfed by 400%, at that. Sig removed, inappropriate link. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] ~Saint |
The Internets
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Posted - 2008.11.12 05:13:00 -
[36]
Originally by: RahAh nZanhOrR Like any good socialist country where the morally "superieur" elite plays to the whining weak to get their vote. CCP has decided to cash in the Amarr, Minmatar and Gallente vote by nerfing Missile Skills AGAIN! Maybe all Caldari Ship Players should start petition CCP to get their money back for all those months spent on missile skill training. Since that has now been a waste of time and your money.
The upside is that Ravens will go over the counter for like 20Mil in 1 month. //signed//
Helpful EVE Tip: Races other than Caldari can and consistently do use missiles.
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Arikanaiz
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Posted - 2008.11.12 05:23:00 -
[37]
Originally by: SenshiMaru
Originally by: Rail Gun We have tested missiles now and they are totally worthless... BS can speed tank part of torpedeos damage only by MOVING without MWD ot AB.
you mean they work exactly like all the other types of guns? *mind blown*
It is my opinion that this is exactly how missles SHOULD work but everyone is just used to them being broken.
No they don't work like all types of guns, the damage penalty they suffer from a moving target is great than that of a hybrid turret and thier ROF is no where near the same. if you remember, a raven couldn't rival the DPS of a Megathrone, moving target or not. Now, if the target is moving we can have up to a 50% drop in DPS... is that still BALANCED and FAIR?
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Role Play
Club Bear
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Posted - 2008.11.12 05:27:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Arikanaiz
Originally by: SenshiMaru
Originally by: Rail Gun We have tested missiles now and they are totally worthless... BS can speed tank part of torpedeos damage only by MOVING without MWD ot AB.
you mean they work exactly like all the other types of guns? *mind blown*
It is my opinion that this is exactly how missles SHOULD work but everyone is just used to them being broken.
No they don't work like all types of guns, the damage penalty they suffer from a moving target is great than that of a hybrid turret and thier ROF is no where near the same. if you remember, a raven couldn't rival the DPS of a Megathrone, moving target or not. Now, if the target is moving we can have up to a 50% drop in DPS... is that still BALANCED and FAIR?
but your guaranteed to hit every time - - -
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Typo Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.12 05:39:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Role Play but your guaranteed to hit every time
What use is that always hit mechanic if a T1 torpedo only deals 40% damage to an unfitted phoon? ____________________ Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless. Made a reality by speed and missile nerf. |
XDSKIRBYKIA
Caldari Ahtila Technologies
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Posted - 2008.11.12 05:52:00 -
[40]
Edited by: XDSKIRBYKIA on 12/11/2008 05:52:54 Edited by: XDSKIRBYKIA on 12/11/2008 05:52:43 FIX IT!.
Ya i can hit everytime but i cant kill **** all, thanks ccp :). Really balanced!!
.....//////mmmmmm alts\\\\\\\....... |
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R3V0LV3R
Black Hats Delta
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Posted - 2008.11.12 05:53:00 -
[41]
/signed
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Mikhale Romanov
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Posted - 2008.11.12 05:58:00 -
[42]
/signed
My torp raven and Widow got corn holed Thanks CCP WITH max missile skills and rigs my regular torpedos ONLY go about 22 to 25 km javs still hit 71... I want my 5months worth of raven/widow/torp training back CCP
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Jaffe Romanov
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Posted - 2008.11.12 06:01:00 -
[43]
/signed What mik said
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Angelonico
Slacker Industries Confederation of Independent Corporations
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Posted - 2008.11.12 06:02:00 -
[44]
/signed
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Typo Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.12 06:16:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Allen Ramses on 12/11/2008 06:16:59
Originally by: Mikhale Romanov /signed
My torp raven and Widow got corn holed Thanks CCP WITH max missile skills and rigs my regular torpedos ONLY go about 22 to 25 km javs still hit 71... I want my 5months worth of raven/widow/torp training back CCP
This is not the problem. In fact, consider yourself lucky a 'short range' weapon travels that far.
The problem is due to the fact that missiles do 10% damage to classes larger than the missile, and instead damage me when I aim at smaller vessels. ____________________ Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless. Made a reality by speed and missile nerf. |
Loyal Soldier
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Posted - 2008.11.12 06:17:00 -
[46]
/signed
Gotta laugh at the idiots at CCP who say that missiles in 26,000AD underperform missiles right now in real life. I think someone in the development section screwed up their math and left out 2 zero's somewhere along the line and were too ashamed to admit the mistake so they said "oh yeah that..........that's what it's supposed to be"
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Lysander Kaldenn
Viper Intel Squad Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2008.11.12 06:19:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 12/11/2008 06:19:26 Oh noez... Now a Raven earns the same amount of isk as all the other ships while spamming missions. Oh please CCP fix this now! I am crying real life tears now that missiles work like every other weapon in the entire game. I know I cried and whined for the nano nerf, but I changed my mind, I swear. Please fix my CNR. My children are running out of food due to my lost isk sales!!!
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Nebulous
Minmatar Thukker Insurgents
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Posted - 2008.11.12 06:20:00 -
[48]
I find this quite hilarious, many of the people who are against the missile "fix" are the very same people that cried "NERF SPEED" and were very smug when they knew they had got their way, now the tables have turned and now you also have to adapt like everyone else....... whats good for the goose is good for the gander.
I've been in EVE for over 5 years now, I know and expect I have to adapt from time to time, you are not going to get this changed so just get over it.
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Typo Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.12 06:22:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Oh noez... Now a Raven earns the same amount of isk as all the other ships will spamming missions. Oh please CCP fix this now! I am crying real life tears now that missiles work like every other weapon in the entire game. I know I cried and whined for the nano nerf, but I changed my mind, I swear. Please fix my CNR. My children are running out of food due to my lost isk sales!!!
STFU you ignorant fool. My former corpmate used to solo The Blockade in his Tempest (I think) in 40 minutes. With my 7 mil SPs in missiles, I could hardly break an hour. Now I'm not even going to bother trying because I know it'll take twice as long. ____________________ Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless. Made a reality by speed and missile nerf. |
Loyal Soldier
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Posted - 2008.11.12 06:24:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Nebulous I find this quite hilarious, many of the people who are against the missile "fix" are the very same people that cried "NERF SPEED" and were very smug when they knew they had got their way, now the tables have turned and now you also have to adapt like everyone else....... whats good for the goose is good for the gander.
I've been in EVE for over 5 years now, I know and expect I have to adapt from time to time, you are not going to get this changed so just get over it.
if you aren't gonna sign the petition then stfu. we couldn't care less about what you think
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Lysander Kaldenn
Viper Intel Squad Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2008.11.12 06:26:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Allen Ramses
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Oh noez... Now a Raven earns the same amount of isk as all the other ships will spamming missions. Oh please CCP fix this now! I am crying real life tears now that missiles work like every other weapon in the entire game. I know I cried and whined for the nano nerf, but I changed my mind, I swear. Please fix my CNR. My children are running out of food due to my lost isk sales!!!
STFU you ignorant fool. My former corpmate used to solo The Blockade in his Tempest (I think) in 40 minutes. With my 7 mil SPs in missiles, I could hardly break an hour. Now I'm not even going to bother trying because I know it'll take twice as long.
So, heres a novel thought. Quit spamming missions like an isk farmer, go to low sec and play the damn game. You kids were sooo happy when you thought this nerf meant "Drakes Online". And now the streets are running high with a river of carebear tears.
Heres another thought: Fit LIGHT drones. Buy a tissue. Dry Tears. Problem solved.
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Sylper Illysten
Caldari Ex Coelis The Bantam Menace
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Posted - 2008.11.12 06:27:00 -
[52]
Signed
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Loyal Soldier
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Posted - 2008.11.12 06:30:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 12/11/2008 06:28:17
So, heres a novel thought. Quit spamming missions like an isk farmer, go to low sec and play the damn game. You kids were sooo happy when you thought this nerf meant "Drakes Online". And now the streets are running high with a river of carebear tears.
Heres another thought: Fit LIGHT drones. Buy a tissue. Dry Tears. Problem solved.
And hold on..... It took you 10-20 minutes longer... oh noez... this is an out rage. You should petition to get your life back.
I wonder if you even decided to look at the missile specs now. Wrath Cruise Missile - Explosion Velocity = 69m/s wow...........a car can go faster than that. Get a brain before you decide to spew your crap here. And it's not up to you to dictate where we play or how we run missions.
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Allen Ramses
Caldari Typo Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.12 06:32:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 12/11/2008 06:28:17 So, heres a novel thought. Quit spamming missions like an isk farmer, go to low sec and play the damn game. You kids were sooo happy when you thought this nerf meant "Drakes Online". And now the streets are running high with a river of carebear tears.
Heres another thought: Fit LIGHT drones. Buy a tissue. Dry Tears. Problem solved.
And hold on..... It took you 10-20 minutes longer... oh noez... this is an out rage. You should petition to get your life back.
I'm not even going to justify this garbage with a respon...Damn! ____________________ Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless. Made a reality by speed and missile nerf. |
Lysander Kaldenn
Viper Intel Squad Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2008.11.12 06:33:00 -
[55]
It's not a physics arguement. This was done to keep missiles from over-powering the game. CCP wont roll it back. Go play WoW please, I hear the PVE is wonderful.
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Mikhale Romanov
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Posted - 2008.11.12 06:34:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Allen Ramses Edited by: Allen Ramses on 12/11/2008 06:16:59
Originally by: Mikhale Romanov /signed
My torp raven and Widow got corn holed Thanks CCP WITH max missile skills and rigs my regular torpedos ONLY go about 22 to 25 km javs still hit 71... I want my 5months worth of raven/widow/torp training back CCP
This is not the problem. In fact, consider yourself lucky a 'short range' weapon travels that far.
The problem is due to the fact that missiles do 10% damage to classes larger than the missile, and instead damage me when I aim at smaller vessels.
Yes.. I was angry when I posted the above and forgot to factor in the speed mitigation. And no.. I have a reason to be a bit irritated with the shorter range.. 36km before (no rigs in widow/raven) 20km post.. WITH the ability to speed tank the dps
To the Carebear comment.. Sorry .. but I am more ****ed my training for a torp/cruise support widow is gone that covered the last 5 months. 58 mil down the drain for that Skill book.
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Loyal Soldier
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Posted - 2008.11.12 06:37:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn It's not a physics arguement. This was done to keep missiles from over-powering the game. CCP wont roll it back. Go play WoW please, I hear the PVE is wonderful.
might wanna check how many people here think you know what you're talking about. it's easy to tell someone is stupid when they pull out the "go have a cry" "get a tissue" "go play WoW" lack of valid arguments ftw and btw, you're just trying to shove this nerf in the face of people who use missiles for pvp and pve cos you love your turrets. that's great but keep it to yourself
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godnfate
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Posted - 2008.11.12 06:52:00 -
[58]
/signed
Ability of speed-tank the equal size missiles in the BS-class is a bit funny, specially in the SpeedNerf patch ))
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Jackspanoni
Black Hats Delta
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Posted - 2008.11.12 06:58:00 -
[59]
/signed
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sliver 0xD
exiles. The Kadeshi
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Posted - 2008.11.12 07:38:00 -
[60]
i have just finished cm lvl5 ! :p yay !
gues i will never use em :P --- Somebody needs a hug! |
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Role Play
Club Bear
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Posted - 2008.11.12 07:43:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Loyal Soldier
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 12/11/2008 06:28:17
So, heres a novel thought. Quit spamming missions like an isk farmer, go to low sec and play the damn game. You kids were sooo happy when you thought this nerf meant "Drakes Online". And now the streets are running high with a river of carebear tears.
Heres another thought: Fit LIGHT drones. Buy a tissue. Dry Tears. Problem solved.
And hold on..... It took you 10-20 minutes longer... oh noez... this is an out rage. You should petition to get your life back.
I wonder if you even decided to look at the missile specs now. Wrath Cruise Missile - Explosion Velocity = 69m/s wow...........a car can go faster than that. Get a brain before you decide to spew your crap here. And it's not up to you to dictate where we play or how we run missions.
...dude you know that 69m/s is 250km/h right? - - -
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Arikanaiz
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Posted - 2008.11.12 07:43:00 -
[62]
For all of you who think that missiles are now "balanced" and "INLINE" with the other types of weapons, consider this, before the patch, a torp fitted raven, with full missile skills, and drones with full skills still couldn't match the DPS of a megathron, NOW with this new patch, the torpedo damage is yet further reduced if the target is moving, a megathron could solo kill a raven just about any day of the weak, now, a mega can possibly take on 2 or 3 ravens. You say our weapons are NOW balanced and INLINE with the other races, I tell you if you look at the math, and actually take a second, you'll see that all missiles are now ineffective against thier given targets. As far as "use webs" well that kinda kills out tank since caldari missile boats are shield tankers and need midslots to be able to do so, so now we have a ship, with reduced damage, and reduced tank, so there goes fleet opperations for caldari. Now to bring up the faction warfare issue... I think CCP is telling us that the Gallente are going to win the war!! Considering that the Gallente race has ships specifically made to use microwarp drives, kinda kills any chance the Caldari have. Picture a Gallente ship, with a microwarp drive, outside of scram range spamming you with Railgun fire, while another with a tank, afterburner, and scram hold you down so you can't go anywhere, well you can't kill either of them now can you?
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FlameGlow
Legio Octae Rebellion Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.12 07:43:00 -
[63]
/signed Speed rebalancing = now everyone can speedtank 50% missile damage, not only few nano***gots can tank 100% like before? WTF? Long-range missile dps was already far from stellar and delayed, now it's nerfed even further against any ship of same class? Missiles don't even have modules similar to tracking computer/enhancer. And even more missileboat tank is supposed to be sacrificed now to fit a target painter. _____________ I don't care what is nerfed, as long as it's not my "undock" button. |
Dior Rellik
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Posted - 2008.11.12 07:45:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn It's not a physics arguement. This was done to keep missiles from over-powering the game. CCP wont roll it back. Go play WoW please, I hear the PVE is wonderful.
Hey dumb ass .. why do think Missiles even exist in todays world ? To over-power the enemy, thats exactly what missiles are/were designed for " shear destruction of any type of target from range". I mean I know this is a game but it is designed around real life dynamics(the future)Community, prosperity , millitary .. the list goes on. Lets put some real life perspective on this as seen the makers want eve to seem so real.
Are you telling me (for example!) an Apaches helfire missile should barley damage an enemies ****ty run down truck just because hes going 50 mph and because the enemies ak47 cant do much damage to the chopper becuase of its range ? MISSILES ARE MEANT TO OVER POWER GUNS !!
Also would todays millitary forces nerf there missiles because they own tha fck out of the enemies forces ? hell no Again .. MISSILE ARE DESIGNED FOR THAT.
At the end of the day real life and game life you have choices .. either be a terrorist with a ****ty ak47 and get owned by millitary missiles or be gallente with your rails blasters or projectiles and again get owned by the caldari might of missile massacre. We all had/have the choice at the start of the game to be .. Gallente/gunboat/drones or Caldari/missiles-pwnage/ err whats the 3rd ? can think of anything else that caldari have/had going for them lol .. etc etc The problem is we've all had that choice taken away from us in eve now. The missiles testers have all come back with disasterous results which is truely bad not just for the missile users but the whole caldari race aswell. and all those months of training missiles skills to the max just for them to be made worse than guns which will take alot of members far to long to rectify by training gunnery skills.
What a f****n farce this is! expansion my ass more like demotion of the caldari race.
/signed by the way !
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Arikanaiz
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Posted - 2008.11.12 07:50:00 -
[65]
If you can't refrain from using vulgar language in this thread then I guess you voice your own ignorance. If you feel you must curse at those of us who use missiles and are trying to voice a change for ourselves, then by all means continue. However, when they decide to make your ROF slower, or make your tracking speeds slower, don't complain to us about it because it will fall on deaf ears. You think we're just a bunch of carebears who whine, fine, think what you will, but I feel truely and honestly cheated that now my pvp experience is tarnished by any ship that can travel at 100m/s or faster. How would you like to have you damage HALVED against everyship from cruise up unless you're using light weapons? I wonder how strong your battships would be with Small Nuetron Blaster IIs or Small Beam Laser IIs??? I don't think you'd stand much of a chance at PVP either now would you?
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Poba
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2008.11.12 07:53:00 -
[66]
TBH the missles were as out of line as nano ships, so CCP fixed both.
there is NO way that a long range BS weapon should be able to hit a cruiser at under 1km from you, its completely out of line and no other long range BS weapon can hit a orbiting cruiser sized ship that close.
bears got nano killed and missles inlined, that just the way CCP works
~Welcome to the internet, where the men are men, the women are men, and the children are FBI agents~ |
Allen Ramses
Caldari Typo Corp
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Posted - 2008.11.12 08:01:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Poba there is NO way that a long range BS weapon should be able to hit a cruiser at under 1km from you, its completely out of line and no other long range BS weapon can hit a orbiting cruiser sized ship that close.
Jesus tap dancing Christ.. Is reading comprehension REALLY this bad on these forums? Do you even know WHY people are complaining? At all? The least you can do is read the damn thread before opening your mouth and spouting a bunch of inaccurate assumptions. ____________________ Pimped out Raven to run level 4 missions quickly: 210 Mil ISK. Realizing your 120 Mil ISK Drake gets the job done faster: Priceless. Made a reality by speed and missile nerf. |
Dior Rellik
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Posted - 2008.11.12 08:05:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Poba
there is NO way that a long range BS weapon should be able to hit a cruiser at under 1km from you
Ok now theve killed caldari missile monstrosities its time to make smart bombs caldari only,put them under the missile skill tree, pimp the dmg power, extend the range of the bombs and allow them in empire. then I might forgive ccp for this
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Arikanaiz
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Posted - 2008.11.12 08:08:00 -
[69]
If anyone would even look at the numbers, a light missile, designed to shoot frigates, has an explsion velocity of 170m/s, the only things that can't out run that going its base speed are battleships, industrials, and mining barges WOOT WOOT, now theres some PVP FUN!!!!
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Harkonin
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Posted - 2008.11.12 09:05:00 -
[70]
I cant say anything, it's just wrong to lower the damage capabilities of a weapon in this way.
Turret weapons arent effective on short range if u use long range weapons or in short range if u use short range weapons, but they all can do allways max damage under the correct configuration.
Let's describe the correct configuration for doing max damage on missiles.
* Your missile explosion velocity has to be higher than target velocity. After nerf, it's like if every ships is flying ten times faster than it was before, so a crap bs flying 130 m/s is like a 1300 m/s bs. * The speed comparison between any missile explosion velocity and their same size ships objective is totally a joke. On normal combat they have like a 40% speed of the ship and in most cases in pvp it's down to 10%. Even a npc-rat can speed tank u. * The drawbacks from missiles keep the same (Fly time to deal damage, Posible destruction by Smartbombs-Defenders, U can keep outrunning they). * Missile weapons + shield tanking is a total pain, so being missile ship focused has a huge lack of posibilities in fitting.
It's totally out of range. U have lowered speed for all people but U have destroyed the way of playing using missiles.
/signed.
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ian666
Rave Technologies Inc. C0VEN
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Posted - 2008.11.12 09:15:00 -
[71]
adapt empire n00bs
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Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.12 09:18:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Arikanaiz
Originally by: SenshiMaru
Originally by: Rail Gun We have tested missiles now and they are totally worthless... BS can speed tank part of torpedeos damage only by MOVING without MWD ot AB.
you mean they work exactly like all the other types of guns? *mind blown*
It is my opinion that this is exactly how missles SHOULD work but everyone is just used to them being broken.
No they don't work like all types of guns, the damage penalty they suffer from a moving target is great than that of a hybrid turret and thier ROF is no where near the same. if you remember, a raven couldn't rival the DPS of a Megathron, moving target or not. Now, if the target is moving we can have up to a 50% drop in DPS... is that still BALANCED and FAIR?
Actually a cruise raven had a greater dps than a rail mega and the raven does not need to change ammo every 15-20km nor does it miss virtually 100% under 30km or so....
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Vigaz
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Posted - 2008.11.12 09:56:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Vigaz on 12/11/2008 09:56:58 /signed
The most stupid nerf ever. Just to force ppl to xtrain (if you have missiles/Caldari skills).
my accounts are alrdy suspended.
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Mikhale Romanov
Black Hats Delta
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Posted - 2008.11.12 10:05:00 -
[74]
Originally by: ian666 adapt empire n00bs
L0ts of us use missiles *t0rped0s* for PVP. y0ur c0mments make n0 sense t0 me in that regard. Please next time think bef0re assuming that every0ne that uses missiles is an empire n00b. ZOMG Communism! |
KingBobs Dawn
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Posted - 2008.11.12 10:09:00 -
[75]
signed
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.12 10:10:00 -
[76]
I like the new missiles. No more escaping their effects simply by going fast, meaning that the range advantage of long-range ships becomes meaningful. Meanwhile, close-range missiles are pretty much unaffected.
The old situation was far too binary, with missiles doing either full or no damage. It was stupid. The new formula is much more sophisticated. Cruise could do with another look, however.
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Damned Force
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2008.11.12 10:10:00 -
[77]
lol if people think devs cant make bigger stupid nerfs, than they making a new patch full them :D
what a noob of balancing team. even a stupid half bake chicken would make better changes
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Arikanaiz
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Posted - 2008.11.12 10:22:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Gypsio III I like the new missiles. No more escaping their effects simply by going fast, meaning that the range advantage of long-range ships becomes meaningful. Meanwhile, close-range missiles are pretty much unaffected.
The old situation was far too binary, with missiles doing either full or no damage. It was stupid. The new formula is much more sophisticated. Cruise could do with another look, however.
LOL regardless of how sophisticated the MATH is, the outcome is still the same, and "No more escaping their effects simply by going fast," every ship in the game can now speed tank missiles, depending on thier size, some without even using Mods. and missiles didn't either hit for full or no damage, damages WERE reduced by sig radius and explosion, they just booted the ratio for some reason.
"Rage rocket, assault missiles and torpedoes and Fury light, heavy and cruise missiles will do less damage to their own ship class but will do more damage to a larger ship class. They will also have a -10% range reduction. "
So, if I fit a RAGE torpedo, and engage a battleship, because I'm' in a battleship, it'll do less damage?
The folks at CCP didn't think this through, and didn't listen to anyone that told em it'd be a BAD idea, they simply said, hey, this sounds complicated, lets do this!!! It'll be great, they'll all be glad we're here to come up with such COMPLICATED and "shopisticated" ideas.....
"The simplest answers, are usually the correct ones!"
PUT IT BACK TO NORMAL AND LEAVE EM ALONE!! THEY SUCKED BEFORE DON"T MAKE EM SUCK WORSE.
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Arikanaiz
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Posted - 2008.11.12 10:23:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Role Play
Originally by: Loyal Soldier
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 12/11/2008 06:28:17
So, heres a novel thought. Quit spamming missions like an isk farmer, go to low sec and play the damn game. You kids were sooo happy when you thought this nerf meant "Drakes Online". And now the streets are running high with a river of carebear tears.
Heres another thought: Fit LIGHT drones. Buy a tissue. Dry Tears. Problem solved.
And hold on..... It took you 10-20 minutes longer... oh noez... this is an out rage. You should petition to get your life back.
I wonder if you even decided to look at the missile specs now. Wrath Cruise Missile - Explosion Velocity = 69m/s wow...........a car can go faster than that. Get a brain before you decide to spew your crap here. And it's not up to you to dictate where we play or how we run missions.
...dude you know that 69m/s is 250km/h right?
DUDE... did you know that every ship in the games speed is in METERS/SECOND???? not KM/H????/
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Mikhale Romanov
Black Hats Delta
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Posted - 2008.11.12 10:29:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Arikanaiz
Originally by: Role Play
Originally by: Loyal Soldier
Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 12/11/2008 06:28:17
So, heres a novel thought. Quit spamming missions like an isk farmer, go to low sec and play the damn game. You kids were sooo happy when you thought this nerf meant "Drakes Online". And now the streets are running high with a river of carebear tears.
Heres another thought: Fit LIGHT drones. Buy a tissue. Dry Tears. Problem solved.
And hold on..... It took you 10-20 minutes longer... oh noez... this is an out rage. You should petition to get your life back.
I wonder if you even decided to look at the missile specs now. Wrath Cruise Missile - Explosion Velocity = 69m/s wow...........a car can go faster than that. Get a brain before you decide to spew your crap here. And it's not up to you to dictate where we play or how we run missions.
...dude you know that 69m/s is 250km/h right?
DUDE... did you know that every ship in the games speed is in METERS/SECOND???? not KM/H????/
Do you know how the metric system works? KM/H is the same as M/S. ZOMG Communism! |
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.12 10:29:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Arikanaiz LOL regardless of how sophisticated the MATH is, the outcome is still the same, and "No more escaping their effects simply by going fast," every ship in the game can now speed tank missiles, depending on thier size, some without even using Mods. and missiles didn't either hit for full or no damage, damages WERE reduced by sig radius and explosion, they just booted the ratio for some reason.
"Rage rocket, assault missiles and torpedoes and Fury light, heavy and cruise missiles will do less damage to their own ship class but will do more damage to a larger ship class. They will also have a -10% range reduction. "
So, if I fit a RAGE torpedo, and engage a battleship, because I'm' in a battleship, it'll do less damage?
Oh dear.
If a ship larger than a frigate or certain HACs is fitting a AB, the chances are that your damage output to it is quite inconsequential, because said ship is lol fit. Also, an ABing ship is trivial to web, and if you don't have your target tackled and webbed, why are you shooting at it? Damage mitigation via ABs looks nice on paper, but doesn't actually work very well in practice.
Rage HAMs and torps still require the target to be tackled, but now do more damage. That's a boost, in my book. As is the massively increased damage of any missile to any fast MWDing target.
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Vigaz
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Posted - 2008.11.12 10:32:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Gypsio III I like the new missiles. No more escaping their effects simply by going fast, meaning that the range advantage of long-range ships becomes meaningful. Meanwhile, close-range missiles are pretty much unaffected.
The old situation was far too binary, with missiles doing either full or no damage. It was stupid. The new formula is much more sophisticated. Cruise could do with another look, however.
Binary? at least there was a way to use missiles @ 100%.
Cruise raven for PvP? Dead Stealth Bomber? Dead Widow? It was pre nerfed before... now it's even worst.
using caldari ship for pvp with missiles today:
Torp raven/golem, only if your fleet is rdy to support you. Good dmg vs any BS without AB. BS with AB or any other ship can speed tank ur torps.
Cerberus, you can deal dmg to every ship, but you can't break any tank alone and also you don't have tackler capability, but if your mates are smart, you can see your name into the killmail.
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Shate Def
The Order of Chivalry Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2008.11.12 10:54:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Arikanaiz
Originally by: Oktacon Just signing because a Hyperion was speed tanking my Raven. That was a bit ridiculous
ships can have, thus unbalancing the pvp aspect of any missile player further. When a Hyperion, with a massive tank already, throws on an afterburner, all the faction fittings in the universe won't help a Raven. Even a Hyperion with no speed mods, can't
hyperion, a massive tank? srsly hype got one of the worst tanks due its 6 lowslots, not to mention active armor tanking in general sucks. srsly missiles are fine now and ships like the golem aren't straight overpowered anymore. look man shield boats got best tanks available (i demand crystals for armor reps!) so they should live with dealing less dmg than armor tanking boats. and yes u need to sacrifice a mid and sacrifice tank in order to do more dmg; armor tankers had to do that for aaaages. get used to it.
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Arikanaiz
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Posted - 2008.11.12 10:59:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Arikanaiz LOL regardless of how sophisticated the MATH is, the outcome is still the same, and "No more escaping their effects simply by going fast," every ship in the game can now speed tank missiles, depending on thier size, some without even using Mods. and missiles didn't either hit for full or no damage, damages WERE reduced by sig radius and explosion, they just booted the ratio for some reason.
"Rage rocket, assault missiles and torpedoes and Fury light, heavy and cruise missiles will do less damage to their own ship class but will do more damage to a larger ship class. They will also have a -10% range reduction. "
So, if I fit a RAGE torpedo, and engage a battleship, because I'm' in a battleship, it'll do less damage?
Oh dear.
If a ship larger than a frigate or certain HACs is fitting a AB, the chances are that your damage output to it is quite inconsequential, because said ship is lol fit. Also, an ABing ship is trivial to web, and if you don't have your target tackled and webbed, why are you shooting at it? Damage mitigation via ABs looks nice on paper, but doesn't actually work very well in practice.
Rage HAMs and torps still require the target to be tackled, but now do more damage. That's a boost, in my book. As is the massively increased damage of any missile to any fast MWDing target.
Are we not getting something here? Where is the "massively increased damage of any missile to any fast MWDing target".... The faster the target the less damage the missile does.
"Also, an ABing ship is trivial to web" so, now those of us who shield tank instead of armor tank must sacrafice a mid slot to equip a web, even though the web has had the its effectiveness reduced from 90% on a t2 to 60% on a t2, which even on cruisers, 1 t2 webifier still leaves the ship traveling over its base speed, which inturn lowers damage done by missiles? so that negates the purpose of the web.
People may argue, that turrets don't always hit. Yes thats true, people will argue that missiles ALWAYS hit, no matter the range, Yes thats true too. But whats a turrets rate of fire? Whats a launchers? A LARGE t2 Nuetron Blasters rate of fire, 7.88 Seconds, the rate of fire on a STANDARD Light missile launcher, t2, is 12.00, so a missile, made to hit frigates and destroyers, which any noob starts out with.. Has over a 4 second delay in ROF than a turret designed for engagin battleships! Now, if that battleship is flying away from it, the missile does less damage.
"Turrets have negative effects for speed as well Arik!" Only if that target is orbiting, and even then, you have mods to increase tracking speed, oh.. and our "explosion velocity vs. ship velocity penalty, it doesn't matter which direction thier going, as long as thier going. Turrets can strike for perfect damage if a target is flying straight towards them. I've seen people 1 volley an interceptor going over 9km/s, a megathron, with railguns, taking out a ship going 9km/s, with one volley. Now, my missiles wouldn't even do 0.2 damage.
THANK YOU CCP
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:04:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Vigaz Binary? at least there was a way to use missiles @ 100%.
Cruise raven for PvP? Dead Stealth Bomber? Dead Widow? It was pre nerfed before... now it's even worst.
using caldari ship for pvp with missiles today:
Torp raven/golem, only if your fleet is rdy to support you. Good dmg vs any BS without AB. BS with AB or any other ship can speed tank ur torps.
Cerberus, you can deal dmg to every ship, but you can't break any tank alone and also you don't have tackler capability, but if your mates are smart, you can see your name into the killmail.
There was also a very easy way for people to avoid missiles 100%. Cruise has problems, I agree.
Torp Raven is unchanged. It always needed support, so nothing has changed here. In fact, it's a stealth boost because some of its competitors - blaster- and AC-boats - are being nerfed by the greater difficulty in getting to optimal.
HAM Drake has been boosted. It still gets full damage against a webbed BC target with Rage. HAM Drakes always fit webs, and Rage damage has been boosted. Loss of Jav range is inconsequential. And again, some of its competitors have been nerfed by their greater difficulty in getting to optimal.
Cerberus has been massively boosted. It isn't a solo ship, so the only ships that you'll be firing at alone are things like Falcons, which don't tank. Now its range tank is far stronger, and it can defend that range, because anything capable of closing on it will be 500% painting itself. (Apart from interceptors, but you can still damage them with HMs, where they were previously immune, and the AML Cerb is death to all interceptors).
BTW... stop mention lolafterburner fits. ABs are not sensible on anything other than frigates, certain HACs and logistics. And even when you do need a web, you do not need to fit a web. Your gang does. But it did anyway, to stop targets simply MWDing off and laughing at your cluelessness.
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UrsaeMajoris
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:05:00 -
[86]
Edited by: UrsaeMajoris on 12/11/2008 11:06:17
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Arikanaiz LOL regardless of how sophisticated the MATH is, the outcome is still the same, and "No more escaping their effects simply by going fast," every ship in the game can now speed tank missiles, depending on thier size, some without even using Mods. and missiles didn't either hit for full or no damage, damages WERE reduced by sig radius and explosion, they just booted the ratio for some reason.
"Rage rocket, assault missiles and torpedoes and Fury light, heavy and cruise missiles will do less damage to their own ship class but will do more damage to a larger ship class. They will also have a -10% range reduction. "
So, if I fit a RAGE torpedo, and engage a battleship, because I'm' in a battleship, it'll do less damage?
Oh dear.
If a ship larger than a frigate or certain HACs is fitting a AB, the chances are that your damage output to it is quite inconsequential, because said ship is lol fit. Also, an ABing ship is trivial to web, and if you don't have your target tackled and webbed, why are you shooting at it? Damage mitigation via ABs looks nice on paper, but doesn't actually work very well in practice.
Rage HAMs and torps still require the target to be tackled, but now do more damage. That's a boost, in my book. As is the massively increased damage of any missile to any fast MWDing target.
Rage torps damage got "boosted" from 540 to 576, that's only an increase of about 6.67%. Do you think that "boost" is in scale with giving Rage torps over 15% more explosion radius? Point is, whatever standard rage torp boat fitting you have, you will do less damage now because of the decreased damage per sig radius ratio of rage torps - not to mention this is disregarding the ridiculousness of targets being able to speedtank torps with only an AB. So now you need your bs-sized target double webbed, and double painted - the only way to do full damage with rage torps now to BS targets.
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eliminator2
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:07:00 -
[87]
not signed everyone brought this on there selves with moaning about nano's but then the nano's moaned about the misiles uber dps and ability to hit them and that got nerfed gallenete moaned that we couldnt get in range we got a speed buff for us all so whats this tell u DNT WHINE ABOUT STUFF THAT MEANS NERFING!! it will just nerf everyone
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Harkonin
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:08:00 -
[88]
Let's do the same to turrets that u have done to missiles.
If u try to hit a ship that is smaller than the ammunition that it's supposed to be required to kill it, u should reduce the damage in the same way than missiles are suffering now.
Using a Large turret vs a ceptor should mean doing 25/400 = 1/16 of damage. Using a Medium turret vs a ceptor should mean 25/125 = 1/5 of damage. Using a small turret vs a ceptor 25/40 = 5/8 of damage.
Let's see what happends then.
This is totally ridiculous to think that this nerf means balance. This means de destruction of missiles.
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Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:11:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Arikanaiz Are we not getting something here? Where is the "massively increased damage of any missile to any fast MWDing target".... The faster the target the less damage the missile does.
"Also, an ABing ship is trivial to web" so, now those of us who shield tank instead of armor tank must sacrafice a mid slot to equip a web, even though the web has had the its effectiveness reduced from 90% on a t2 to 60% on a t2, which even on cruisers, 1 t2 webifier still leaves the ship traveling over its base speed, which inturn lowers damage done by missiles? so that negates the purpose of the web.
People may argue, that turrets don't always hit. Yes thats true, people will argue that missiles ALWAYS hit, no matter the range, Yes thats true too. But whats a turrets rate of fire? Whats a launchers? A LARGE t2 Nuetron Blasters rate of fire, 7.88 Seconds, the rate of fire on a STANDARD Light missile launcher, t2, is 12.00, so a missile, made to hit frigates and destroyers, which any noob starts out with.. Has over a 4 second delay in ROF than a turret designed for engagin battleships! Now, if that battleship is flying away from it, the missile does less damage.
"Turrets have negative effects for speed as well Arik!" Only if that target is orbiting, and even then, you have mods to increase tracking speed, oh.. and our "explosion velocity vs. ship velocity penalty, it doesn't matter which direction thier going, as long as thier going. Turrets can strike for perfect damage if a target is flying straight towards them. I've seen people 1 volley an interceptor going over 9km/s, a megathron, with railguns, taking out a ship going 9km/s, with one volley. Now, my missiles wouldn't even do 0.2 damage.
THANK YOU CCP
What you forget is that sig radius and exp velocity are multiplied together to get a factor to apply to your damage, here is an example for you; my vagabond takes more damage mwding in orbit (what you used to do to reduce/eliminate damage), than it does just flying at base speed, even though going ~3km/s it is a lot faster than the exp velocity, its signature radius is so greatly increased that it takes MORE damage.
Also, bring a friend in a vigil or bellicose or their t2 variants, there is a nice 40km range dual web dual painter for you (or maybe an interceptor with a point and painter, or an AB with web and painter that can sig/tracking tank, while you put point on, small gang turret BS are going to need tacklers too now, why should you be any different.
As for torps not outdamaging a megathron, you are wrong, they could on a raven with equivalent implants and skills do more damage, at 6x the optimal range, so don't know what you are complaining about, you should compare with lasers with scorch ammo loaded in for your dps bracket, not blasters with high damage ammo.
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Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:13:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Captator on 12/11/2008 11:14:42
Originally by: Harkonin Let's do the same to turrets that u have done to missiles.
If u try to hit a ship that is smaller than the ammunition that it's supposed to be required to kill it, u should reduce the damage in the same way than missiles are suffering now.
Using a Large turret vs a ceptor should mean doing 25/400 = 1/16 of damage. Using a Medium turret vs a ceptor should mean 25/125 = 1/5 of damage. Using a small turret vs a ceptor 25/40 = 5/8 of damage.
Let's see what happends then.
This is totally ridiculous to think that this nerf means balance. This means de destruction of missiles.
Have you not noticed all the complaints about gallente blaster boats in web range now that webs are nerfed? The damage reduction against a smaller vessel with a savvy target is 100% from main weapons (I ignore drones as both missile and turret BS can field them).
I can tracking tank a deimos in web range with an interceptor, he cannot kill me, period, against a cerberus or even a caracal, I would likely have to disengage.
edit: and blasters are the best tracking guns, so whatever problems they have are amplified inside webrange for the others. You trade off potentially reduced damage at all ranges with missiles, for potentially full damage at all ranges.
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Arikanaiz
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:14:00 -
[91]
Instead of just complaining I offer a Fix to CCP, increase launcher ROF 30%, and decrease the size of the missiles to allow launchers to carry more ammo.
Currently torpedo launchers carry around 18 rounds, while blasters carry 120. about 7 times as many rounds.
With the current "changes" to missiles in regards to velocity penalties with missiles, increasing the rate of fire and ammo capacity will "balance" the pvp aspect for missile based characters. Considering pvp makes up the core of player interaction within eve (yes everything eventually goes back to player versus player, don't argue that point.)
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eliminator2
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:16:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Harkonin Let's do the same to turrets that u have done to missiles.
If u try to hit a ship that is smaller than the ammunition that it's supposed to be required to kill it, u should reduce the damage in the same way than missiles are suffering now.
Using a Large turret vs a ceptor should mean doing 25/400 = 1/16 of damage. Using a Medium turret vs a ceptor should mean 25/125 = 1/5 of damage. Using a small turret vs a ceptor 25/40 = 5/8 of damage.
Let's see what happends then.
This is totally ridiculous to think that this nerf means balance. This means de destruction of missiles.
ur nowlegde on hybirds fail
the blasters llready miss 9/10 times on smaller oponents due to tracking failness on the turrets even with ship bonus it isnt enough but we dint whine about it as much and ask for them to nerf everyone else so we can win
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UrsaeMajoris
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:16:00 -
[93]
Originally by: eliminator2 not signed everyone brought this on there selves with moaning about nano's but then the nano's moaned about the misiles uber dps and ability to hit them and that got nerfed gallenete moaned that we couldnt get in range we got a speed buff for us all so whats this tell u DNT WHINE ABOUT STUFF THAT MEANS NERFING!! it will just nerf everyone
Saying "You brought this on yourselves" sounds more like an argument of spite rather than logic. Did you ever think that this missile nerf to bring it in line with the nano nerf went just a tad overboard?
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eliminator2
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:17:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Arikanaiz Instead of just complaining I offer a Fix to CCP, increase launcher ROF 30%, and decrease the size of the missiles to allow launchers to carry more ammo.
Currently torpedo launchers carry around 18 rounds, while blasters carry 120. about 7 times as many rounds.
this is because misiles have range and allways it unless the target is moving fast yet blasters miss 9/10 times and have very very reduced range compared to missiles
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eliminator2
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:18:00 -
[95]
Originally by: UrsaeMajoris
Originally by: eliminator2 not signed everyone brought this on there selves with moaning about nano's but then the nano's moaned about the misiles uber dps and ability to hit them and that got nerfed gallenete moaned that we couldnt get in range we got a speed buff for us all so whats this tell u DNT WHINE ABOUT STUFF THAT MEANS NERFING!! it will just nerf everyone
Saying "You brought this on yourselves" sounds more like an argument of spite rather than logic. Did you ever think that this missile nerf to bring it in line with the nano nerf went just a tad overboard?
i do on some level yes but wasnt the nano nerf allso tad overboard as the nanoers said ?
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McHaals
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:18:00 -
[96]
Edited by: McHaals on 12/11/2008 11:25:35 Signed... on a NIGHTHAWK: explo rad : 80->100m explo velocity: ~1000 -> 136m/s
are CCCP gone MAD?
and 1 more thing: we talking about EXPLOSION from 2000m/s.. under that , just fast burning... ( IRL Physics )
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Arikanaiz
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:18:00 -
[97]
Lets ask CCP, what IS the formula.
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Hatsumi Kobayashi
Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:19:00 -
[98]
/somewhat signed
I'm ready to adapt to the current changes, but cruise missiles are definitely screwed. I found it weird while missioning in a battleship that NPC cruise missiles were dealing less damage than NPC heavy missiles, by a significant amount, even though they were of the same damage type. Makes no sense for PvE and neither does it in PvP.
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Hotblue
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:19:00 -
[99]
looks like some ISK farmers got unhappy and forgot to adapt...
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eliminator2
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:21:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Hotblue looks like some ISK farmers got unhappy and forgot to adapt...
agreed
and the wiered fact is caladari are trying to blame it on gallente saying there overpowered by missing nearly all targets with fail tracking and they have loads of charges in there ammou -_-
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KhaniKirai
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:23:00 -
[101]
Originally by: eliminator2
Originally by: Arikanaiz Instead of just complaining I offer a Fix to CCP, increase launcher ROF 30%, and decrease the size of the missiles to allow launchers to carry more ammo.
Currently torpedo launchers carry around 18 rounds, while blasters carry 120. about 7 times as many rounds.
this is because misiles have range and allways it unless the target is moving fast yet blasters miss 9/10 times and have very very reduced range compared to missiles
DPS was balanced over the years anyway.
That is not the case on this moment, all the other types of turrets have higher dps. In most alliances they advise everyone NOT to use ravens for fleet combat anyway, with this change, its even less worthwhile.
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Koyama Ise
Caldari Equestrian Knight Order of Lolicon
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:23:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Arikanaiz PUT IT BACK TO NORMAL AND LEAVE EM ALONE!! THEY SUCKED BEFORE DON"T MAKE EM SUCK WORSE.
This ONLY works if the speed nerf is removed. If the speed nerf is implemented and the missiles left the same all that will happen is you will have 15 Drakes on a gate and missiles would become the new nano. While both nerfs were over the top the reducing of the ludicrous speeds was needed and with the over insane speed nerf missiles needed to be nerfed.
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cragz
Caldari CaldaCorp Quantum Star Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:25:00 -
[103]
This patch *cough* i mean expansion is farcical. Heres what Ive seen up to now just testing my hawk on a ****ty high sec drone exploration plex.
Pre-nurf (with out the maths)
Hawk - top speed w/o Gistii b type AB - 325 m/s with Ab 525 m/s 4 light launchers with cal navy blood claw light missiles kills all drone types with 1 or 2 volleys STATIONARY OR MOVING !
Post-nerf Hawk - top speed w/o Gistii B AB - 325 m/s .. with AB 774 m/s (nice speed nerf :P ) When stationary it took me about 5 - 8 volleys to kill the same type of ****ty drone. when moving some of the drones took 3 volleys and other drones still took up to 8 volleys even with speed tanking or w/e its called lol.
So the nerf has actually increased my AB speed by roughly an extra 50% on top of what it was before the patch. and also easy (1-3/10) drone plexs in my hawk are now as difficult as a pre-patch raven in a lvl 4 mission.
Ive also noticed the hawk has the same paint job as the harpy now .. what Ive also noticed (maybe im wrong) is that I'm sure the Hawk had Shield Resist Bonuses before the patch and now its says my hawk has shield boost bonus (on the discrip page)... Am I wrong ?
Also my minnie alts probe frig ship had a top speed of 375 m/s and now its over 400 m/s
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Hun Jakuza
Naughty By Nature
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:26:00 -
[104]
Edited by: Hun Jakuza on 12/11/2008 11:26:02 You Caldari guys always cry for something. You want the speed nerf and now starting cry when come out.
Can i have your stuffs ? :D
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eliminator2
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:26:00 -
[105]
Originally by: KhaniKirai
Originally by: eliminator2
Originally by: Arikanaiz Instead of just complaining I offer a Fix to CCP, increase launcher ROF 30%, and decrease the size of the missiles to allow launchers to carry more ammo.
Currently torpedo launchers carry around 18 rounds, while blasters carry 120. about 7 times as many rounds.
this is because misiles have range and allways it unless the target is moving fast yet blasters miss 9/10 times and have very very reduced range compared to missiles
DPS was balanced over the years anyway.
That is not the case on this moment, all the other types of turrets have higher dps. In most alliances they advise everyone NOT to use ravens for fleet combat anyway, with this change, its even less worthwhile.
yes but which would hit more often therefor doing more dmg in a 1v1 if raven has set his range right u could take mega o half armor maybe before mega got there and then you could just keep on missile spam whille ur shield is pretty much safe
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SkwisgaarSkwigelf
C.R.M Productions
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:27:00 -
[106]
what with tracking and all that for every other weapon type, I'm fine with the missile nerf. Not too terribly ok with the nano nerf but I'll adapt and overcome.
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eliminator2
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:28:00 -
[107]
Originally by: SkwisgaarSkwigelf what with tracking and all that for every other weapon type, I'm fine with the missile nerf. Not too terribly ok with the nano nerf but I'll adapt and overcome.
agreed iv adapted by flying amarr i suggest caldari adapt the same u guys arnt the only ones affected everyone is so adapt or leave
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McHaals
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:32:00 -
[108]
Originally by: cragz This patch *cough* i mean expansion is farcical. Heres what Ive seen up to now just testing my hawk on a ****ty high sec drone exploration plex.
Pre-nurf (with out the maths)
Hawk - top speed w/o Gistii b type AB - 325 m/s with Ab 525 m/s 4 light launchers with cal navy blood claw light missiles kills all drone types with 1 or 2 volleys STATIONARY OR MOVING !
Post-nerf Hawk - top speed w/o Gistii B AB - 325 m/s .. with AB 774 m/s (nice speed nerf :P ) When stationary it took me about 5 - 8 volleys to kill the same type of ****ty drone. when moving some of the drones took 3 volleys and other drones still took up to 8 volleys even with speed tanking or w/e its called lol.
So the nerf has actually increased my AB speed by roughly an extra 50% on top of what it was before the patch. and also easy (1-3/10) drone plexs in my hawk are now as difficult as a pre-patch raven in a lvl 4 mission.
Ive also noticed the hawk has the same paint job as the harpy now .. what Ive also noticed (maybe im wrong) is that I'm sure the Hawk had Shield Resist Bonuses before the patch and now its says my hawk has shield boost bonus (on the discrip page)... Am I wrong ?
Also my minnie alts probe frig ship had a top speed of 375 m/s and now its over 400 m/s
"Changes have been made to all variations of afterburners. A standard Tech I afterburner will now have a speed boost of 112.5% while a meta 14 variant will have a 162% speed boost. Adjustments have been made to the cap requirement for meta 11 and above. There are clear advantages and drawbacks to the two types of modules within the same meta level. Some afterburners will have a smaller cap and power grid need while others will have more speed bonus and less CPU need. "
and this is a Missile nerf topic...
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TZeer
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:33:00 -
[109]
Signed...
Worst change ever!!
How many times have CCP changed missiles now?
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Hell77
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:35:00 -
[110]
Id say the blasterboats took a harder blow...web got nerfed..mwd stats make the vindicator bonus useless..and guns got nerfed a bit
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McHaals
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:37:00 -
[111]
Originally by: SkwisgaarSkwigelf what with tracking and all that for every other weapon type, I'm fine with the missile nerf. Not too terribly ok with the nano nerf but I'll adapt and overcome.
fine? explo radius 125->215 ( +72% ) explo velocity ~ 750->80m/s ( -90% )
is it good??
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eliminator2
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:38:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Hell77 Id say the blasterboats took a harder blow...web got nerfed..mwd stats make the vindicator bonus useless..and guns got nerfed a bit
i agree but you no at least we dont blame other races for it and at least we can adapt to it ^^
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Arikanaiz
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:39:00 -
[113]
Ok, you show me fraps of a mega missing 9/10 against a battleship, and I'll resign from eve completely. Show me a raven, that can 1v1 against a megathron and win, web or not, damage is still reduced from a raven while the mega can use 5 ogre IIs, and 7 Blasters. last I checked Raven only had 6 torps.
And as far as this whole speed nerf, what did they really do to your speed? Made it so afterburners are faster? Made it so MWDs are stoppable?
And just so you guys get the picture, the only real way to stop an ECM boat, was with FoF missiles, now all that ECM ship has to do is fit an afterburner and its about invincible :-P
You want us to adapt, be prepared to see ALOT more ECM.. wait, then you'll complain about Caldari being better than you.
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CrestoftheStars
Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:41:00 -
[114]
whatever you do, it will not work, ccp don't change changes ^^ so just drop it.
i actually like the idea of the change, although we need some expl vel mods and it is a little or a lot overkilled, and the dmg need increasement to compensate ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
Arikanaiz
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:42:00 -
[115]
Originally by: eliminator2
Originally by: Hell77 Id say the blasterboats took a harder blow...web got nerfed..mwd stats make the vindicator bonus useless..and guns got nerfed a bit
i agree but you no at least we dont blame other races for it and at least we can adapt to it ^^
I've noticed, the only ones who really seem to be say we should stop complaining aren't caldari? Eliminator2, I wonder what Yendaj would say, seeing as how she primarily flies caldari ships I'm sure she'll give you an ear full.
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Stalina
Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:44:00 -
[116]
Ever flown a turret ship?
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Captator
Universal Securities
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:45:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Arikanaiz Ok, you show me fraps of a mega missing 9/10 against a battleship, and I'll resign from eve completely. Show me a raven, that can 1v1 against a megathron and win, web or not, damage is still reduced from a raven while the mega can use 5 ogre IIs, and 7 Blasters. last I checked Raven only had 6 torps.
And as far as this whole speed nerf, what did they really do to your speed? Made it so afterburners are faster? Made it so MWDs are stoppable?
And just so you guys get the picture, the only real way to stop an ECM boat, was with FoF missiles, now all that ECM ship has to do is fit an afterburner and its about invincible :-P
You want us to adapt, be prepared to see ALOT more ECM.. wait, then you'll complain about Caldari being better than you.
Raven is a much better gang boat, doing the same dps at much longer range, therefore it is not unreasonable to expect mega to be better solo boat.
FoF didn't work, didn't have enough range to take down a jamming boat, and they would always go after a closer target anyway.
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Arikanaiz
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Posted - 2008.11.12 11:52:00 -
[118]
Originally by: Stalina Ever flown a turret ship?
Yes Stalina, this isn't my only character, I have a Gallente one as well. She is alot younger than this one, but now, could easily whoop me in a BS vs BS fight.
Turrets don't miss 9/10, Tracking doesn't effect damage against another battleship even if the thing is using an AB, they have more turrets and a higher ROF.
My raven, even with a web, still can't beat her.
And for those who say armor tanking is weak, ever tried to make a cap stable active tank for shields? I can do it for armor, but I can't make it work with the same effectiveness for shields... Hmm wait, a majority of the engineering mods are mid slots, ohh shield tanking takes midslots?
My hyperion, MASSIVE tank, 6 lows or not, 7.5% armor boost amount per lvl makes for a nice tank.. Like everyones been saying why don't you adapt???
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Harkonin
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:08:00 -
[119]
What is going to happend?
Well, all missile bs gonna be dropped to unwanted stuff. Not usable in pve and nothing to say about pvp so just scrap.
PVP gonna be restricted to turret weapons even more that it's allready.
The only worth ship with missiles will keep on nighthawk but it's price is a problem for pvp so any 1 trying to do missions with missiles will switch to it.
Time will show what i am saying here.
Have fun.
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San Rintu
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:17:00 -
[120]
I am truly worried about a lot of you. Please adapt your ship fittings.
Target painters are your new best friend. Stop firing at frigates with missiles that are too oversized. If you want to kill frigates in a Cerberus/Nighthawk then fit assault launchers. It just isn't rocket science (lol get it). If for some reason your innate ability to troll yourself rotten is only derived upon the forums, maybe you could have friends in game.
Consider forming a balanced gang able to take on a number of targets. Maybe I am just speculating however. Medium and Large turrets now also are totally ineffective against a ship they were not designed to hit too. It's not just a missile nerf lols.
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eliminator2
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:25:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Arikanaiz Ok, you show me fraps of a mega missing 9/10 against a battleship, and I'll resign from eve completely. Show me a raven, that can 1v1 against a megathron and win, web or not, damage is still reduced from a raven while the mega can use 5 ogre IIs, and 7 Blasters. last I checked Raven only had 6 torps.
And as far as this whole speed nerf, what did they really do to your speed? Made it so afterburners are faster? Made it so MWDs are stoppable?
And just so you guys get the picture, the only real way to stop an ECM boat, was with FoF missiles, now all that ECM ship has to do is fit an afterburner and its about invincible :-P
You want us to adapt, be prepared to see ALOT more ECM.. wait, then you'll complain about Caldari being better than you.
sorry was playing a diff game
maybe not 9/10 but it was a estemate and i was taking range into perspective allso plus ogre t2 can be deatroyed by a ravens t2 drones which then gives raven a uper handed
and a properly at ranged raven can beat a mega at 1v1
as on sisi i have been beaten by a raven ask my older corp mates as it was one of them
and yes a mega has more high points but a raven doesnt miss any shot at range or not the mega does loose dps and may mis at diffrent range over 5km
and as for speed they reduced our align time our top speed our quickness to top speed (which wa sboosted because we gave facts not omg these guys are better than us boost me) which infact all thoughs points make it harder for the mega to get in range and towards things and we have to thin k now do i fit a mwd and have it stopped in a battle or have a ab which is even worse and web doesnt help us at all
and the ecm ships are caldari's frav pvp ship so u just gave a good point and fit for a falcon/scorp and ecm r really really hard to stop since 9/10 (that was a estimate for u omg hes sayin its exact 9/10 pple) they perma jam u
and we carnt see any more ecm that we do now because they are really good ships even eccm dont stop it but that will just bring more and more ships to kill you all so there u go. can i haves ur stuff now?
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eliminator2
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:27:00 -
[122]
Originally by: Arikanaiz
Originally by: eliminator2
Originally by: Hell77 Id say the blasterboats took a harder blow...web got nerfed..mwd stats make the vindicator bonus useless..and guns got nerfed a bit
i agree but you no at least we dont blame other races for it and at least we can adapt to it ^^
I've noticed, the only ones who really seem to be say we should stop complaining aren't caldari? Eliminator2, I wonder what Yendaj would say, seeing as how she primarily flies caldari ships I'm sure she'll give you an ear full.
i do believe they need a boost in dps but to try and bring gallenete down with u guys saying were better in every way just enoys me and yendja can say wat she/he likes i dont really care its my point of view im stayin buy it and no1 will change it
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eliminator2
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:29:00 -
[123]
Originally by: Arikanaiz
Originally by: Stalina Ever flown a turret ship?
Yes Stalina, this isn't my only character, I have a Gallente one as well. She is alot younger than this one, but now, could easily whoop me in a BS vs BS fight.
Turrets don't miss 9/10, Tracking doesn't effect damage against another battleship even if the thing is using an AB, they have more turrets and a higher ROF.
My raven, even with a web, still can't beat her.
And for those who say armor tanking is weak, ever tried to make a cap stable active tank for shields? I can do it for armor, but I can't make it work with the same effectiveness for shields... Hmm wait, a majority of the engineering mods are mid slots, ohh shield tanking takes midslots?
My hyperion, MASSIVE tank, 6 lows or not, 7.5% armor boost amount per lvl makes for a nice tank.. Like everyones been saying why don't you adapt???
maybe ur raven is wrong then because my mate who had/still does have a caldari char actually made a raven cap stable that can kill megas and im sure he cn make one with the changes and once i gain IM SAYIN 9/10 AS A ****IN ESTAMITE U MORONS -_-
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VALentuSYS
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:30:00 -
[124]
/Signed +1000
I the beginner, and I cannot do now anything to receive money...
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Kingwood
Amarr Emos and Cowboys
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:30:00 -
[125]
Maybe you Caldari players should just stop *****ing?
To quote:
Originally by: Cpt Branko
Enjoy your nano nerf, Caldari pigs.
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Kingwood
Amarr Emos and Cowboys
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:31:00 -
[126]
Originally by: VALentuSYS /Signed +1000
I the beginner, and I cannot do now anything to receive money...
MY PRECIOUS MISSIONS!
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eliminator2
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:31:00 -
[127]
Originally by: San Rintu I am truly worried about a lot of you. Please adapt your ship fittings.
Target painters are your new best friend. Stop firing at frigates with missiles that are too oversized. If you want to kill frigates in a Cerberus/Nighthawk then fit assault launchers. It just isn't rocket science (lol get it). If for some reason your innate ability to troll yourself rotten is only derived upon the forums, maybe you could have friends in game.
Consider forming a balanced gang able to take on a number of targets. Maybe I am just speculating however. Medium and Large turrets now also are totally ineffective against a ship they were not designed to hit too. It's not just a missile nerf lols.
thank you a caldari pilot with brains hard to come by these days it seems or maybe they just have adapted to this change and dnt really care?
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San Rintu
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:32:00 -
[128]
Definitely the brains part.
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Vigaz
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:33:00 -
[129]
The only real plus of cruise missile was agaisnt smaller target. Now they are useless. Big nerf.
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Arikanaiz
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:34:00 -
[130]
You're right, I'm just gonna bring my scorpion out, and have your mega for ransom!? Name calling isn't nice btw.
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VALentuSYS
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:42:00 -
[131]
Edited by: VALentuSYS on 12/11/2008 12:45:02
Originally by: Kingwood
Originally by: VALentuSYS /Signed +1000
I the beginner, and I cannot do now anything to receive money...
MY PRECIOUS MISSIONS!
In 0.0 missions? And this subject not for discussion, and for reference maintenance
And, I was not rude to you......
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San Rintu
The Bastards
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:42:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Vigaz The only real plus of cruise missile was agaisnt smaller target. Now they are useless. Big nerf.
The 249km range on them say on a Raven without sacrificing all of your mids/lows is certainly not a 'Plus' of the weapon then...
You have in the cruise missile/Raven a real niche weapon platform that can Ewar/Tank as well as snipe in a gang. Just because you can no longer mercy kill a frigate from x km away it is not a nerf. Battleship Beams/Rails/Artillery simply are not wroth firing at anything smaller than a cruiser and even then, they need to be afk. (This of course without the help of a Hyena/Huginn/Rapier/Bellicose painting one)
It just amuses me that because people are now given the beautiful chance to re-invent tactics and ships within Eve, the first thing most do is reach for the pitchforks.
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Kingwood
Amarr Emos and Cowboys
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:45:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Kingwood on 12/11/2008 12:47:56
Originally by: VALentuSYS
Originally by: Kingwood
Originally by: VALentuSYS /Signed +1000
I the beginner, and I cannot do now anything to receive money...
MY PRECIOUS MISSIONS!
In 0.0 missions? And this subject not for discussion, and for reference maintenance
MY PRECIOUS RATTING!
And how nice of you to tell me I'm not allowed to post my opinion. Stop *****ing. It brought about this horrible screw-up of a patch.
Edit: Maybe not that horrible. It's refreshing to see carebears *****ing about being unable to do Lvl 4's in less than 30 minutes. \o/
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Arikanaiz
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:49:00 -
[134]
Edited by: Arikanaiz on 12/11/2008 12:49:28 I will be willing to purchase everyones ravens for 5mil ISK a piece, as they are useless. I will be selling scorpions with a full set of cruise luanchers, ECM, and an AB for 130mil a piece delievered anywhere within empire space *0.5 or higher* Thank you.
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VALentuSYS
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:49:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Kingwood
MY PRECIOUS RATTING!
And how nice of you to tell me I'm not allowed to post my opinion. Stop *****ing. It brought about this horrible screw-up of a patch.
I the fighter, instead of the getter. And so will be always. And again - if I the beginner, it is not necessary to me to be rude...
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eliminator2
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:50:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Arikanaiz You're right, I'm just gonna bring my scorpion out, and have your mega for ransom!? Name calling isn't nice btw.
then we both get ganked by rest of people that want a go lol
btw nice thinking thats what is called adapting using the stuff that is usfull instead of finding stuff that isnt and moaning about it (the moaning about it part isnt aimed at you btw)
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Arikanaiz
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:52:00 -
[137]
Hey man, just gimme a ROF bonus, but I still say, in general missile boats are screwed, I'm still gonna ransom your ship though :-P.
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eliminator2
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 12:54:00 -
[138]
Originally by: Arikanaiz Hey man, just gimme a ROF bonus, but I still say, in general missile boats are screwed, I'm still gonna ransom your ship though :-P.
all means do ^^ and i agree and have allways through this that missiles have gotten a bit screwed from this it just ****ed me of that caldari are blaming gallenete for this :D
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Arikanaiz
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:00:00 -
[139]
Originally by: eliminator2
Originally by: Arikanaiz Hey man, just gimme a ROF bonus, but I still say, in general missile boats are screwed, I'm still gonna ransom your ship though :-P.
all means do ^^ and i agree and have allways through this that missiles have gotten a bit screwed from this it just ****ed me of that caldari are blaming gallenete for this :D
Its not that I'm "blaming" Gallente for anything, I have a Gallente character, just stating for FW purposes, and the fact that Amarr and Minimatar have been screwed over since the game started :-P
To all Caldari ECM FTW!!! btw, 2mil Isk to any caldari pilot that can bring me eliminator2's frozen corpse, btw, I'm in the middile of goonswarm space, univited, becareful getting to me :-P
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Hatsumi Kobayashi
Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:00:00 -
[140]
Edited by: Hatsumi Kobayashi on 12/11/2008 13:01:24
Originally by: San Rintu
The 249km range on them say on a Raven without sacrificing all of your mids/lows is certainly not a 'Plus' of the weapon then...
True, but the issue is the fact that a cruise missile can and will hit for less than a heavy missile on an enemy battleship. This is as weird as if a thorax was hitting a dominix harder than a megathron would, assuming same skills.
(edited for generally lousy typing)
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Arikanaiz
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:01:00 -
[141]
And for those Gallente pilots who want me dead, add to my bounty ingame, I'm sure if it gets high enough someone will hunt me down!
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Tyco RaaIII
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:02:00 -
[142]
signed/ +1000000
as a caldari char i just wanna say: "give us a chance damit"
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eliminator2
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:03:00 -
[143]
Originally by: Arikanaiz
Originally by: eliminator2
Originally by: Arikanaiz Hey man, just gimme a ROF bonus, but I still say, in general missile boats are screwed, I'm still gonna ransom your ship though :-P.
all means do ^^ and i agree and have allways through this that missiles have gotten a bit screwed from this it just ****ed me of that caldari are blaming gallenete for this :D
Its not that I'm "blaming" Gallente for anything, I have a Gallente character, just stating for FW purposes, and the fact that Amarr and Minimatar have been screwed over since the game started :-P
To all Caldari ECM FTW!!! btw, 2mil Isk to any caldari pilot that can bring me eliminator2's frozen corpse, btw, I'm in the middile of goonswarm space, univited, becareful getting to me :-P
meh ill just nano to th..... o wait i carnt DAMNIT lol :D
and yea i no ur not but others are and then others think OMG hes got a wall of text lets belive him :D and yea gd luck with that and goons but they do fail :D
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eliminator2
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:05:00 -
[144]
Originally by: Tyco RaaIII signed/ +1000000
as a caldari char i just wanna say: "give us a chance damit"
you had a chance :D
every race has been nerfed like this in at least one expansion but iv never seen any race go this dramatic over something like this :D i find it funny now and ill just laugh at most caldari pilot that doesnt have a point behind what there saying :D
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Musashibou Benkei
Caldari Combined Imperial Fleet
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:09:00 -
[145]
Edited by: Musashibou Benkei on 12/11/2008 13:14:13 Link
take a look and see for yourself why so many people are complaining about this missile nerf. missiles were never the king of dps to begin with and now they're even more useless
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eliminator2
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:13:00 -
[146]
make it into a link i cba to copy and paste :D
and yes i no thre never been the high dps but they were wen it came to nanoers and missiles thats why they got nerfbatted because this expansion is about speed and that is what they consentrted on most and wen they found out missiles can pretty much hit nanoers easy as anything they had to nerf the missiles to ballance it
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Musashibou Benkei
Caldari Combined Imperial Fleet
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:15:00 -
[147]
Originally by: eliminator2 make it into a link i cba to copy and paste :D
and yes i no thre never been the high dps but they were wen it came to nanoers and missiles thats why they got nerfbatted because this expansion is about speed and that is what they consentrted on most and wen they found out missiles can pretty much hit nanoers easy as anything they had to nerf the missiles to ballance it
Tell me the last time you used a missile boat to snipe nano'ers instead of a rokh or something similar. such hypocracy
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Vigaz
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:16:00 -
[148]
Originally by: San Rintu
Originally by: Vigaz The only real plus of cruise missile was agaisnt smaller target. Now they are useless. Big nerf.
The 249km range on them say on a Raven without sacrificing all of your mids/lows is certainly not a 'Plus' of the weapon then...
You have in the cruise missile/Raven a real niche weapon platform that can Ewar/Tank as well as snipe in a gang. Just because you can no longer mercy kill a frigate from x km away it is not a nerf. Battleship Beams/Rails/Artillery simply are not wroth firing at anything smaller than a cruiser and even then, they need to be afk. (This of course without the help of a Hyena/Huginn/Rapier/Bellicose painting one)
It just amuses me that because people are now given the beautiful chance to re-invent tactics and ships within Eve, the first thing most do is reach for the pitchforks.
Do you know how long does it take for a cruise to travel 250km? Sniper ravens are just an epic fail. If you aren't a noob you should know it.
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eliminator2
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:19:00 -
[149]
Originally by: Musashibou Benkei
Originally by: eliminator2 make it into a link i cba to copy and paste :D
and yes i no thre never been the high dps but they were wen it came to nanoers and missiles thats why they got nerfbatted because this expansion is about speed and that is what they consentrted on most and wen they found out missiles can pretty much hit nanoers easy as anything they had to nerf the missiles to ballance it
Tell me the last time you used a missile boat to snipe nano'ers instead of a rokh or something similar. such hypocracy
never because i carnt use caldari thank u plz come again
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Itecles
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:23:00 -
[150]
/signed
Was there a demand for that or is it just fun to establish such useless changes?
Maybe we just have to wait for T3 items before we can use our missiles again?? So EVE-Universe is the only place that we know from now where inventions are going backwards.
It would be a good idea to fix all that crap with the Corporation Hangar Array's where you can not put Bookmarks into. FIX tis stuff before you bring new problems into the game.
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eliminator2
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:25:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Itecles /signed
Was there a demand for that or is it just fun to establish such useless changes?
Maybe we just have to wait for T3 items before we can use our missiles again?? So EVE-Universe is the only place that we know from now where inventions are going backwards.
It would be a good idea to fix all that crap with the Corporation Hangar Array's where you can not put Bookmarks into. FIX tis stuff before you bring new problems into the game.
if people stopped whining about things that don't really need a fix maybe ccp can consentrate more on things that do instead of having the entire team split up completly there all ready split up enough with the whole ambulation and t3 stuff just give them time and a chance its not as easy as it looks running a game like this
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Roderigo Borgia
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:26:00 -
[152]
Edited by: Roderigo Borgia on 12/11/2008 13:27:04 not read all the whining but as i understand it - its not speed alone that determines how well your missiles hit its the RATIO between speed and your signature radius
now i've not tested yet and i do have 6mil skillpoints in missiles so i could easily be upset - but lets not forget a torpedo raven did an obscene dps in pvp with only 6 launchers with a pretty respectable range for gate camps etc
so was unbalanced every other ship had to think about relative velocity - getting into range for blaster boats etc - webbing targets - a raven just locked and fired witha target painter. yes the figures for explosion velocities are low but they are just a balancing system they dont actually reflect the real world - if was real world any ship could reach pretty much any speed ( except lightspeed of course ) jsut a question of how long you leave it with the engines burning away
perhaps ccp should rename km to some weird named thing then people would be so upset at the explosion velociuty of the missiles
now somewhere in the posts i read somewhere that a bs can speed tank a missile frigate - if that is true then yeah that has gone to far but i'm pretty sure the speed to sig radius ratio will mean any loss in damage is very small indeed to the point of effectively nothing
but since my precious vagabond was whooped with the nerf stick rather hard too this means that anyone flying any sort of missile boat cant insta kill it like i had thought was going to be the case
so yeah caldari have been hit hard by this but - think about minmatar - pretty much half guns half missiles so they got this nerf to think about then they got nano nerf please remember that anything smaller than and sometimes including bs and bc's speed tank pretty much exclusively - so now they have no speed tank to rely on
now think of the minmatar recon pilots ohhhhhhh yeah they got useless webs that couldn't slow a sleepiung tortoise down and yep they used speed tanking too =/ so minmatar ships been hit harder than caldari if you ask me
and gallente been hit speed nerf/web nerf as they need to get into blaster range then hold there targets there - but now be lucky to catch up to there targets and a single web probally wont hold them there either - so gallente nerf too
ammar do seem to have come out rather well since they never really relyined on speed/webs or missiles but you can bet in the next expansion or patch they will get hit by the big ol nerf stick too
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Musashibou Benkei
Caldari Combined Imperial Fleet
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:30:00 -
[153]
Originally by: eliminator2
Originally by: Musashibou Benkei
Originally by: eliminator2 make it into a link i cba to copy and paste :D
and yes i no thre never been the high dps but they were wen it came to nanoers and missiles thats why they got nerfbatted because this expansion is about speed and that is what they consentrted on most and wen they found out missiles can pretty much hit nanoers easy as anything they had to nerf the missiles to ballance it
Tell me the last time you used a missile boat to snipe nano'ers instead of a rokh or something similar. such hypocracy
never because i carnt use caldari thank u plz come again
then you would have no idea about missiles in the first place. so i guess that makes you a pretty huge liar for talking like you know everything
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eliminator2
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:34:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Musashibou Benkei
Originally by: eliminator2
Originally by: Musashibou Benkei
Originally by: eliminator2 make it into a link i cba to copy and paste :D
and yes i no thre never been the high dps but they were wen it came to nanoers and missiles thats why they got nerfbatted because this expansion is about speed and that is what they consentrted on most and wen they found out missiles can pretty much hit nanoers easy as anything they had to nerf the missiles to ballance it
Tell me the last time you used a missile boat to snipe nano'ers instead of a rokh or something similar. such hypocracy
never because i carnt use caldari thank u plz come again
then you would have no idea about missiles in the first place. so i guess that makes you a pretty huge liar for talking like you know everything
actualy ur brain seems not to big because someone doesnt use them doesnt mean they dnt no nothing about them i have seem plenty of caldari ships hunting down nanoers and killing them its not hard to do really and i suggest reading the persons post above urs for the simple fact he speaks more reason than all of us so remeber because someone doesnt use them doent mean they dont no anything about them i havent played the game for 2 years and 5 months to no nothing about missiles i have mates that use them and tell em ratio and show me what there like and explain stuff to me wen i dnt understand it
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Musashibou Benkei
Caldari Combined Imperial Fleet
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:42:00 -
[155]
Originally by: eliminator2
actualy ur brain seems not to big because someone doesnt use them doesnt mean they dnt no nothing about them i have seem plenty of caldari ships hunting down nanoers and killing them its not hard to do really and i suggest reading the persons post above urs for the simple fact he speaks more reason than all of us so remeber because someone doesnt use them doent mean they dont no anything about them i havent played the game for 2 years and 5 months to no nothing about missiles i have mates that use them and tell em ratio and show me what there like and explain stuff to me wen i dnt understand it
I guarantee my brain is larger than yours and it doesn't matter how many "mates" you hear about it from, if you haven't used them yourself, then you can't speak on its behalf
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eliminator2
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:45:00 -
[156]
so the fact that so many caldari pilots say that gallente are so more overpwered than caldari (wich they should be because gallente are the ones that are drivin by power and weapons) and have never flown or used blasters means that they no about gallente in that case half of the posts on here are ireelevant and i forgot to mention i did use missiles at one bit but i wa bored with them and wanted to use the mega which got nerfed a few times and so what if mates told me about it i no what there like and no what they need they need abit more dmg back but not to be able to hit smaller ships than them like blaster ships can most people in here dont have any evidense or facts to show this stuff is true that they claim
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Musashibou Benkei
Caldari Combined Imperial Fleet
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:51:00 -
[157]
Originally by: eliminator2 so the fact that so many caldari pilots say that gallente are so more overpwered than caldari (wich they should be because gallente are the ones that are drivin by power and weapons) and have never flown or used blasters means that they no about gallente in that case half of the posts on here are ireelevant and i forgot to mention i did use missiles at one bit but i wa bored with them and wanted to use the mega which got nerfed a few times and so what if mates told me about it i no what there like and no what they need they need abit more dmg back but not to be able to hit smaller ships than them like blaster ships can most people in here dont have any evidense or facts to show this stuff is true that they claim
ROFLMAO. learn to use full stops and grammar once in a while. I never said that gallenete were overpowered and I actually CAN speak on behalf of the gallente because I use both caldari and gallente ships. Stop trying to implicate me in things I never said, stupid.
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eliminator2
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:56:00 -
[158]
it wasnt actually based on just YOU nothing is based on just one person i was meaning it on the ones that said all that, and i no my grammer isnt that good and i appologieze for that, but still just because someone doesnt use the items doesnt mean they carnt have a say and if it was true that if you dont use the item you dont have a say this expansion would never be made because it was made for people that dont use nano and was whining about them beening to fast for them to hit yet you can hit them if you use your brain once in a whille. and i actually did and have skills for caldari so i can actually have a say in this thank you very much (forgot i trained missile skills when i was gunna use SB) O and another thing SB for gallente are hurt by the missile change but we arnt moaning even though they are used alot and as the person said minmatar got hurt the most in this expansion but they have changed and adapted. use ECM boats if you dont like missiles or do what iv done and train for a diffrent race
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Arikanaiz
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:56:00 -
[159]
SO give them a bigger sig penalty instead of a velocity penalty as well. Problem solved, we're all happy, I'd still like a ROF boost please, and an order of fries.
Gallente are all drone luvers anyways, who cares what they think.
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Musashibou Benkei
Caldari Combined Imperial Fleet
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:58:00 -
[160]
Originally by: eliminator2 it wasnt actually based on just YOU nothing is based on just one person i was meaning it on the ones that said all that, and i no my grammer isnt that good and i appologieze for that, but still just because someone doesnt use the items doesnt mean they carnt have a say and if it was true that if you dont use the item you dont have a say this expansion would never be made because it was made for people that dont use nano and was whining about them beening to fast for them to hit yet you can hit them if you use your brain once in a whille. and i actually did and have skills for caldari so i can actually have a say in this thank you very much (forgot i trained missile skills when i was gunna use SB) O and another thing SB for gallente are hurt by the missile change but we arnt moaning even though they are used alot and as the person said minmatar got hurt the most in this expansion but they have changed and adapted. use ECM boats if you dont like missiles or do what iv done and train for a diffrent race
CRIKEY, BATMAN!!! IT'S THE GREAT WALL OF TEXT!!!
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eliminator2
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 13:59:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Arikanaiz SO give them a bigger sig penalty instead of a velocity penalty as well. Problem solved, we're all happy, I'd still like a ROF boost please, and an order of fries.
Gallente are all drone luvers anyways, who cares what they think.
actually not true im not a drone luver id rather use blasters over drones any day and i could say this about caldari
caldari are all missile luvers anyway, who cares what they think even though they have the best inty (crow) and have the falcon and scorp for ECM and have the rohk for rails/blasters even thought there missile race
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raymore
Minmatar IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:30:00 -
[162]
Edited by: raymore on 12/11/2008 14:30:19 Signed
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raymore
Minmatar IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:36:00 -
[163]
Cache cleared. |
Itecles
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:38:00 -
[164]
@eliminator2
To expect that someone's brain is smaller than your own is extremly unpolite. But maybe not where you are coming from. Your atitude is clear. So you need this kind of advantage and help. Well i could live with that.
But for those who like to make one or two missions after work the last missile nerf was extremly time intensive. Because you need now much more time to complete a mission. Now - with that change - it is even senseless to make missions any more. So for all the students, children and workless people this might be that big issue, because they have time. As in other MMORPGS like Battlefield this meant that this game is now for those who can play the whole day and not for the working people. I will think about this.
AND not all of us are interessted in PvP, some of us just whant to build something.
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TempSniper
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:48:00 -
[165]
Missiles are finally fixed. Leave them as they currently are.
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Party SoL
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:55:00 -
[166]
signed
with the nerf i don't need to fight in pvp..
now a 800m/s frig can kill my raven... =( and i didn*t damage it....
this is very bad missiles are realy low and now they make less dps
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altish McN0tmymain
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 14:55:00 -
[167]
Ive played eve for years and now am just a light player the odd mission or two before work or on my day of, but this nerf just blew all that out of the window. Well im sure what ever we say ccp will not change it or they will just nerf something else..nerf and counter nerf blah blah blah
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xelerator
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:02:00 -
[168]
thx for the fu**ing missl nerf now caldari is the biggest fu** rasse in game THX ccp you can not predict what you think makes.
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eliminator2
Gallente Heretic Army Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:11:00 -
[169]
Originally by: Party SoL signed
with the nerf i don't need to fight in pvp..
now a 800m/s frig can kill my raven... =( and i didn*t damage it....
this is very bad missiles are realy low and now they make less dps
they can kill any bs now though part from domi but naa they carnt kill ur raven cause u would use ur med/liught drones on em :D
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Arikanaiz
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:11:00 -
[170]
Is it that all of you who don't use missiles think that they're finally "fixed" because now you are able to kill the majority of players in eve who are in fact, caldari missile users?
Missiles aren't fixed, they're severly ****ed. Last time I'm going to say this.
YES they should be redirected to do less damage to smaller targets, give them a bigger sig penalty, not a velocity penalty as well. Low will be the day when any player minmatar, gallente, or amarr have EVER had a problem hitting a battleship going its base speed. If your tracking is THAT bad, why don't you do what you're saying and adapt, train your skills up, or just leave eve? Quit giving the caldari players crap because we don't like something. If you have a VALID argument and facts to back them up why this "nerf" should stay, state them, if you're just going to patronize because your life sucks, stfu, and leave the thread.
As far as CCP goes, great idea, poor math and implimentation. No, my cruise missile should not hit a frig for full damage, except maybe on a stealth bomber.. but my torpedos shouldn't hit for half damage because the enemy battleship has an afterburner!! Thier tracking can compensate, they have mods to boost that, we don't. A BCS increase damage and rate of fire, doesn't do me any good if I can't break the tank on a cruiser rat with cruise missiles.
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LAdY mYrYaM
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:24:00 -
[171]
Signed! Please reconsider this crap
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DaWuu
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:26:00 -
[172]
oh cool my cruises got less explo velocity then my torps that makes sense.. I didnt test in pVP but i saw a angel BS speed tanking me with his mwd damage got down by 75%.. every gun would have hit them as they came up to me.. why shouldnt i hit a BC with my cruises when i am doing nearly as much damage with a drake with same amount of damage mods.. what are cruises for now. theyre useless for sniping as they were before, as aspeed tank against missis work on every range. its all written a little crappy but i just want to say that they nerfed nano.. that would be cool as before you put on youre mwd and dont get damage from missiles.. now nano is nerfed but explo velocity is so low that its actually muuch easier to speed tank anything.
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DaWuu
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:28:00 -
[173]
signed btw
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Mithrandere
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:37:00 -
[174]
Bump. I add my favour here. It seems that it is no longer worth flying caldari with the recent and previous nerfs. I am also in favour of a change to 'nerfing policy' see my other topic (linkage): http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=921524
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joseph visarionovich
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:38:00 -
[175]
ccp, please give me back the years ive trained missiles
/signed
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DiseL
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Associates
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:39:00 -
[176]
Edited by: DiseL on 12/11/2008 15:41:51 SIGNED!!!! It's ridiculous that my cruise Raven missile explosion travels 81 times slower than the missile itself. A little physics lesson is in order at CCP. Target Navigation Prediction just became a near worthless skill. 69m/sec Explosion velocity increased to around 100m/sec at level 5 is pathetic. I played around a little last night with my Navy Raven and a Taranis. My Taranis with no ab/mwd could easily permatank the raven at base speed. I agree that missiles should be much less effective against smaller targets but a cruise hitting a taranis for 3 damage while it is orbitting at base speed is way out of line. All the gunnery pilots can keep cheering that a missile nerf was a long time coming but the arguement doesn't fly when most pure PVPers still chose guns over missiles due to their effectiveness even prior to this expansion.
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Green Vipera
Caldari Romanian Space Explorer Tread Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:43:00 -
[177]
Signed. You just totally killed caldari as pvp and managed to f***up pve also CCP.
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Hun Jakuza
Naughty By Nature
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:53:00 -
[178]
Edited by: Hun Jakuza on 12/11/2008 15:56:07
Originally by: joseph visarionovich ccp, please give me back the years ive trained missiles
/signed
No, u will cant give back. I trained my gunnery skills 3x times long like you, and i cant got back too. I think this topic will be my favor topic. :D
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DeviloftheHell
Caldari RaaFharaX
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Posted - 2008.11.12 15:59:00 -
[179]
you wanted this nefr f***ing caldari idiots now you have to swallow the consequence and stop crying :)
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UrsaeMajoris
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Posted - 2008.11.12 16:08:00 -
[180]
Edited by: UrsaeMajoris on 12/11/2008 16:10:01
Originally by: DeviloftheHell you wanted this nefr f***ing caldari idiots now you have to swallow the consequence and stop crying :)
We wanted a nano nerf so that our missiles would actually do some damage instead of 0-10 per missile against nanos, and not a f'ing nano + complete missile nerf you f***king idiot.
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Celedris
Stimulus Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2008.11.12 16:12:00 -
[181]
Don't be sad that your cruise missiles have let you down, turn that frown upside down with Amarr Battleship V today!*
*(well, 30+ days plus tachyon spec) *(fly a Falcon)
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Atemida
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Posted - 2008.11.12 16:19:00 -
[182]
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UrsaeMajoris
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Posted - 2008.11.12 16:22:00 -
[183]
Originally by: Atemida
Agreed. CCP please hire this man.
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Bloodhands
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2008.11.12 16:26:00 -
[184]
/signed
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DeviloftheHell
Caldari RaaFharaX
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Posted - 2008.11.12 16:27:00 -
[185]
Originally by: Atemida Edited by: Atemida on 12/11/2008 16:25:56 Edited by: DiseL on 12/11/2008 15:41:51 SIGNED!!!! It's ridiculous that my cruise Raven missile explosion travels 81 times slower than the missile itself. A little physics lesson is in order at CCP. Target Navigation Prediction just became a near worthless skill. 69m/sec Explosion velocity increased to around 100m/sec at level 5 is pathetic. I played around a little last night with my Navy Raven and a Taranis. My Taranis with no ab/mwd could easily permatank the raven at base speed. I agree that missiles should be much less effective against smaller targets but a cruise hitting a taranis for 3 damage while it is orbitting at base speed is way out of line. All the gunnery pilots can keep cheering that a missile nerf was a long time coming but the arguement doesn't fly when most pure PVPers still chose guns over missiles due to their effectiveness even prior to this expansion.
___________________________________________________________________________________ i can't say this better.Yes in CCP no one understand physics and that's why the missiles are actually faster that their explosion Thank you CCP that you kill caldari.So now tell me what should i use for PvP(and PvE) when i can't use a single fu**ing GUN ????????
time to learn noob :)
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eliminator2
Gallente Fatality. Heretic Nation
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Posted - 2008.11.12 16:29:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Arikanaiz Is it that all of you who don't use missiles think that they're finally "fixed" because now you are able to kill the majority of players in eve who are in fact, caldari missile users?
Missiles aren't fixed, they're severly ****ed. Last time I'm going to say this.
YES they should be redirected to do less damage to smaller targets, give them a bigger sig penalty, not a velocity penalty as well. Low will be the day when any player minmatar, gallente, or amarr have EVER had a problem hitting a battleship going its base speed. If your tracking is THAT bad, why don't you do what you're saying and adapt, train your skills up, or just leave eve? Quit giving the caldari players crap because we don't like something. If you have a VALID argument and facts to back them up why this "nerf" should stay, state them, if you're just going to patronize because your life sucks, stfu, and leave the thread.
As far as CCP goes, great idea, poor math and implimentation. No, my cruise missile should not hit a frig for full damage, except maybe on a stealth bomber.. but my torpedos shouldn't hit for half damage because the enemy battleship has an afterburner!! Thier tracking can compensate, they have mods to boost that, we don't. A BCS increase damage and rate of fire, doesn't do me any good if I can't break the tank on a cruiser rat with cruise missiles.
i dnt like caldari i think this was a bad idea as well for all BS only amarr fit trackin mods and do you really think im going to give a slot up on me mega just to fit one trackin mod "incase" i run into a frig or ab bs i dnt think so
the diffrence is all other re=aces are hit hard with this as well but only caldari are making a big deal out of it indtead of sayin it needs boosting tell them which part come up with a solution for them im sure they would appreiciate it they have enough on atm let alone fixing one race or all of the races, i mean if caldari get buffed i want minmatar and gallente to ve vuffed because we wont be able to hit you ravens when you can do full DPS on us so its not fair if just you guys get boosted plus if you do get boosted nano will whant to be boosted
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NupetietVer
Neuro Cartographic Services
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Posted - 2008.11.12 16:35:00 -
[187]
Ghost Training Nerf. and now Missile Nerf.
Man, the idea of a cruise missile not hitting a Frigate now is just redonkolous, especially if the Frigate is just using an AfterBurner.
I could understand the Speed nerf, and the Ghost Training nerf, although I'll play less now.
But the Missile nerf is just dumb, along with those Certificates. This Expansion sucks ballzz.
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altish McN0tmymain
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 16:37:00 -
[188]
why the f*** do we pay for this c***, can we reverse this rubbish patch, frankly it sucks,
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DeviloftheHell
Caldari RaaFharaX
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Posted - 2008.11.12 16:40:00 -
[189]
Originally by: NupetietVer Ghost Training Nerf. and now Missile Nerf.
Man, the idea of a cruise missile not hitting a Frigate now is just redonkolous, especially if the Frigate is just using an AfterBurner.
I could understand the Speed nerf, and the Ghost Training nerf, although I'll play less now.
But the Missile nerf is just dumb, along with those Certificates. This Expansion sucks ballzz.
well try use guns to kill a cruiser what orbiting you you never will hit that frig:) i want to 100% hits for guns like missiles while the missiles hits everytime so stfu
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RoCkEt X
Caldari The Order of Chivalry Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2008.11.12 16:51:00 -
[190]
Edited by: RoCkEt X on 12/11/2008 16:53:42 i have marauders 5.
my golem hits a stationary megathron for 1637 per volley on its highest resistance.
an afterburner on the megathron, @ 250m/s. the same volley hits for 1070.
2 SOLUTIONS.
1 - increase explosion velocity, (decrease magnitude of nerf)
2 - Allow guided missile precison skill to apply to torpedo's ASWELL as other missiles.
currently, anything exceeding 137m/s on a max skilled golem pilot will cause his/her damage to be penalized. 140m/s speed tanking.... WTF?!
without doing the math, thats about 40% damage reduction, yes speed has been nerfed. but nano is still as bad as it was before, but everything is slower. 4.5km/sec nano ishtar. unhittable. same ishtar now = 1900m/s, still unhittable. and you cant even stop it with webs now.
/signed.
rock.
THIS NERF NEEDED TO HAPPEN. BUT THEY OVER-NERFED IT
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altish McN0tmymain
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 16:57:00 -
[191]
.quote] well try use guns to kill a cruiser what orbiting you you never will hit that frig:) i want to 100% hits for guns like missiles while the missiles hits everytime so stfu
But dont guns have wrecking damage also which ups there damage, missiles dont have this. Sure they hit everytime but one wreck can match it, i just think the nerf was overkill.
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Vidin
Gallente Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys
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Posted - 2008.11.12 17:03:00 -
[192]
Stop whining Rocket. My abaddon has top speed of 90 m/s. With AB I think it can go up to 200 maybe...
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DiseL
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Associates
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Posted - 2008.11.12 17:04:00 -
[193]
Originally by: DeviloftheHell time to learn noob :)
You put alot of thought into that one. It was an experiment 2008 boy! You may want to do your research before you throw around your noob tags! No web, no painter, no drones, just a base speed ship against 7 Caldari Navy Cruise Launchers. Speed tanking shouldn't be an option with zero speed mods on a ship. Would a gun ship be able to hit the Taranis? No, not at close range but your chances increase greatly as range does and you quite possibly instapop that Taranis at your optimal. I had my other main in a Geddon there also and I one vollied that Taranis at optimal with ease. My missiles hit the Taranis the same at 200k as they did at 5k.
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RoCkEt X
Caldari The Order of Chivalry Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2008.11.12 17:05:00 -
[194]
Edited by: RoCkEt X on 12/11/2008 17:07:24 vidin, your abaddon is plated and trimarked. the mega i tested had 3 plate 3 trimark, and got 260m/s. and why are you putting speed mods on an abaddon anyway lol.
besides, i'm pretty much gonna butthump the guy, the only time this applies is if hes trying to run. which happens ALOT.
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Vidin
Gallente Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys
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Posted - 2008.11.12 17:06:00 -
[195]
Because otherwise it would take more than a minute to reapproach the gate after a jump lol
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RoCkEt X
Caldari The Order of Chivalry Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2008.11.12 17:09:00 -
[196]
use a scout, warp off gate and then warp back, its what everyone else does lol.
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Vidin
Gallente Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys
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Posted - 2008.11.12 17:10:00 -
[197]
yaya.. but sometime there is no time to warp away and back, you know that. Anyway long live missile nerf!
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RoCkEt X
Caldari The Order of Chivalry Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2008.11.12 17:12:00 -
[198]
Edited by: RoCkEt X on 12/11/2008 17:14:55 Edited by: RoCkEt X on 12/11/2008 17:12:47 its not like i'm complaining about not hitting frigs lol. my damage is nuked against a BATTLESHIP, which any gunboat would hit as normal. let alone anything smaller.
'lets get rid of speed tanking' 'oh, lets have speed tanking at 200m/s!!!!!!11'
What the F*CK.
wud also like to point out that heavy assault missiles have same base exp velocity as torps.???!
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Atemida
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Posted - 2008.11.12 17:16:00 -
[199]
so now just falcon left for caldari,lol i should't say this tommorow CCP will nurf jammers
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su ling
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Posted - 2008.11.12 17:27:00 -
[200]
\signed
game is about done for me, just spent to much time finding a set-up to run mission with and the ccp screws it up, thanks ccp, for nothing
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Nicoli Malthus
Caldari The First Somerset Strikers
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Posted - 2008.11.12 17:27:00 -
[201]
I have played this game for over 3 years now, this is the most pathetic patch (not expansion) i have ever seen! I just payed for my 6 months of playing a month ago, and it was an obvious waste of money!
I have never seen such a pathetic disregard for players, and the obvious miss of making a simple fix to the "speed" problem of not just implementing speed caps on ships.
Battleships were already slow as ****, and now you want me to waste more time flying one, are fraking insane CCP???
I am canceling my subscriptions at this point, and i will not renew them until you set the missiles and speed back to the way they were! You have royalling screwed this game up for everyone, and now your going to pay the price with people quiting.
I guess you forgot about something called YouTube, i can't wait for all the negative advertising you're going to get at this point.
I sign the op's request!
P.S. Cruise missiles were designed for BC and higher, hence the name "CRUISE MISSLE"!!!!
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Thorian Baalnorn
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Posted - 2008.11.12 17:37:00 -
[202]
/signed
This is way extreme. I have a manti stealth bomber and i was hitting npc frigs before this patch for 650 dam/missle with CN missles. i now hit 180 dam on the same frigs with the same missles. My stealth bomber is no more now than a kestrel with a 18 mil isk paint job and long range rockets.
My drake is more effective than my raven and my caracal is alot more effective than my drake.
CCP wanted to give up more viable options but they have taken away an entire weapon group and a role ship( stealth bomber) as viable pvp options since even an industrial or BS can now speed tank most missles without AB
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Skylar Vodkabar
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Posted - 2008.11.12 17:58:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Nicoli Malthus Edited by: Nicoli Malthus on 12/11/2008 17:51:20 Edited by: Nicoli Malthus on 12/11/2008 17:50:25 I have played this game for over 3 years now, this is the most pathetic patch (not expansion) i have ever seen! I just payed for my 6 months of playing a month ago, and it was an obvious waste of money!
Oh, even funnier, is that my CNR now goes 117m/s when it used to do 143m/s base. The sad part, my cruise missiles in the CN launchers, only have an explosion velocity of 108.5m/s, which means I can't even shoot myself!!!!"
WTF CCP You have gone way to far!!!! This game is pathetic!!!!
Funny indeed, can't even shoot yourself.
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Hun Jakuza
Naughty By Nature
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:21:00 -
[204]
Originally by: altish McN0tmymain .quote] well try use guns to kill a cruiser what orbiting you you never will hit that frig:) i want to 100% hits for guns like missiles while the missiles hits everytime so stfu
But dont guns have wrecking damage also which ups there damage, missiles dont have this. Sure they hit everytime but one wreck can match it, i just think the nerf was overkill.
You heard about weapon disruptors ? 2 distruptor on megathron and u will shot 4,5km with null. And dont forget wrecking chance 0.01% but miss and scraching damage.
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Nebulous
Minmatar Thukker Insurgents
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:26:00 -
[205]
This has now been up for most of the day, over one hundred thousand subscribers and I count aprox 46 *signed*, kind of puts into perspective how much people care and that the whiners are indeed the minority, time to forget this subject and put this petition to bed as a massive failure.
And no i'm not biased, I have got a golem sat in a station with a caldari navy fitting, but i'm not gonna cry about it, i'm going to adapt like i've had to with many of my ships over the last five years.
------------------
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Atemida
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:35:00 -
[206]
i found some information about explosion velociti in the air,for real explosions,in open space it should be even more!!!!! "The rate at which the detonation/combustion wave travels through the explosive product. The speed or how fast the chemical reaction occurs or the rate of the reaction. Only High Explosives have a Velocity of Detonation (VOD). The reaction speed is measured in feet/second or meters/second. Velocity of Detonation (VOD)-of a high explosive shock wave will usually vary from 6500 feet/second (2,000 m/second) to 26,000 feet/second (8,000 m/second), the speed of sound being 1085 feet/second (331 m/second) in air. 1 foot = .3048 meters" No comment about the speed of a sound(the missile explosion in eve is even slover ) i am so angry about this patch
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Ultrakorne
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:40:00 -
[207]
i just started to play 20 day ago.. its just 6 hours that i try to complete a quest... somedays ago i can do mission lvl 1 and 2 quite easly with my cruiser caracal. today i was stuck in an impossibile mission for my cruiser.. i bought the best fits, i try also 3x large shield extenders ... but i CANNOT complete the quest.. i use the correct damage type for my target (thermal) but i need 12-14 ligh missile to take an 2000 ISK bounty enemy down..
simply impossible, i start reading the forum looking for help.. and i found lots of topics about missile. i just want to kill some frigate but missions become undoable to me...
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Vidin
Gallente Pangalactic Punks n' Playboys
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:43:00 -
[208]
Edited by: Vidin on 12/11/2008 18:45:31
Originally by: Atemida i found some information about explosion velociti in the air,for real explosions,in open space it should be even more!!!!! scientific blablabla...
Thank you for comparing eve to reality but then... why do guns have range limit? In space a bullet or laser or whatever should fly until it HITS something. This is a game. Adopt or gimme your stuff
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maddmaxx III
Caldari Middleton and Mercer LLP Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:49:00 -
[209]
Signed
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Richard Cryshaw
Fable - Mining ops
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Posted - 2008.11.12 18:50:00 -
[210]
S I G N E D ! More Cowbell To The People!! |
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Atemida
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Posted - 2008.11.12 19:18:00 -
[211]
Originally by: Vidin Edited by: Vidin on 12/11/2008 18:45:31
Originally by: Atemida i found some information about explosion velociti in the air,for real explosions,in open space it should be even more!!!!! scientific blablabla...
Thank you for comparing eve to reality but then... why do guns have range limit? In space a bullet or laser or whatever should fly until it HITS something. This is a game. Adopt or gimme your stuff
you are right at 100% its just a game and and it has nothing in common with the real world situations .my mistake (ps bullets dont have speed right?)
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3lack Dragon
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Posted - 2008.11.12 20:08:00 -
[212]
/signed |
KTOZ
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 20:09:00 -
[213]
i m a maxed caldari pilot, and choosed this race becoz it was good race when i started to play eve ( in 2004 ).
And belive me those days you could even do solo pvp with caldari ships.
CCP i just think it is not fair to let ppl train millions of skill points for years and then do such big changes in game mechanics by calling it "balance" coz if is so, give to those same ppl a chance to reset skills and change race if you are so confident of balancing races..
kt Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Bend'er
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Posted - 2008.11.12 20:35:00 -
[214]
/ Signed.
pS. Did a CPP dev. read this thread? I am too lazy to read whole 7 pages... I hope this gets their attention.
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Thorian Baalnorn
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Posted - 2008.11.12 20:43:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Nebulous This has now been up for most of the day, over one hundred thousand subscribers and I count aprox 46 *signed*, kind of puts into perspective how much people care and that the whiners are indeed the minority, time to forget this subject and put this petition to bed as a massive failure.
And no i'm not biased, I have got a golem sat in a station with a caldari navy fitting, but i'm not gonna cry about it, i'm going to adapt like i've had to with many of my ships over the last five years.
------------------
and how many read these boards or this thread? you might have a few thousand at best read the boards and most are complaining in general descussion. alot of in game complaining.
i did a level 3 in a drake( modified with 5 heavies and 2 standard assaults) and did the lvl 3 intercept the sabatuers mission. i could literally speed tank the entire mission in my drake... 30-40 ships all locked and firing on me and as long as i kept moving they did almost no damage cause my drake goes over 180m/s base even the 10-15 frigates at close range barely touched me.
If this patch sticks im setting all my ships up to speed tank..... oh wait they already come standard speed tank nvm.
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Mattk50
Caldari House Maadiah
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Posted - 2008.11.12 20:47:00 -
[216]
/signed
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Kephael
Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 21:00:00 -
[217]
Fix this CCP.
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Dan Brimstone
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Posted - 2008.11.12 21:03:00 -
[218]
Yea I have to agree. Missiles where already useless enough in general combat, I thought the speed nerf was supposed to be a boost to missiles. Please change it back.
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Ignition SemperFi
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2008.11.12 22:01:00 -
[219]
Edited by: Ignition SemperFi on 12/11/2008 22:04:12 I can understand allowing things to AB/MWD tank missiles, but just like an tank it should devote a few slots to that tank.
A substantial amount of dmg reduction against an unfitted mega, just because he is in orbit, coming from a cruise or torp raven. No AB no mwd... thats where it has gone a bit too far. And what exactly are rage torps for again? ah yes the shooting of freighters and capital ships ffs.
So are shield tankers now supposed to give up another slot for a target painter ontop of the: MWD/AB, Warp Disrupt, Web... maybe for a BS you can pull this off, but smaller shield tankers trying to hit the same class sized ship, that dont have as many midslots. And lol stealth bombers with cruise missiles... yeah find a new profession i guess.
Yeah we will adapt yada yada yada but this was a bit too far off the top.
I do agree BS sized weapons shouldnt be hitting frigs for what they were doing... that part needed to be fixed
------ People Say Im paranoid because I have a gun, I say I dont have to be paranoid because I have a gun.
Garmon - "I LOK ON TO ROMULAN WARBIRD AND GO POW POW POW" |
Korovyov
Luminous Love Brewery
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Posted - 2008.11.12 22:01:00 -
[220]
To start off, I haven't used missiles in forever. I run around in a Harbinger and a friend in a Drake. Before QR was released, the Drake's damage output with Heavy Missiles was slightly higher than mine. We could both 1-shot non-Elite Frigs, and at normal ranges (20km) there was only a 1-2 sec difference in kill times for everything else. The main exception was elite frigs, which I just plain couldn't touch (sorry, my drone skills are crap, and I have other skills I need first). It was handy having a Drake that, when I webbed and painted the frig, could kill them in a time far more reasonable than 15 flipping minutes.
And then came Quantum Rise.
My goodness, what a nightmare. I followed all the changes, and I suppose I should have actively tested them as well. Fact is, the only ones that come out of this cleanly are the veteran characters. Webs took a huge nerf... there goes killing frigs at anything but sniping range. Missiles AND medium drones took a huge nerf... there goes killing elite frigates before June 2008. Webs took a nerf... there goes killing normal frigs in anything less than five minutes! So, to do anything in this game now, I need... what do I need? I need a Hulk. Ah, I see what you did here CCP. Industry buff indeed! Combat is totally broken for all but the turret snipers now, so might as well sell it all and mine! Wonderful. CCP... nerfing combat since beta. Congratulations!
Roll it back.
--=--=-- end of post --=--=--
got booze? |
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Renee Alexis
Luminous Love Brewery
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Posted - 2008.11.12 22:18:00 -
[221]
Edited by: Renee Alexis on 12/11/2008 22:18:21 /Signed
10 hours to delete all the characters on 2 of my accounts. Goodbye 4-year old characters! No, you dorks can't have my stuff - I've already given it away to deserving individuals.
I guess I should have actively been testing this, but honestly I don't believe in pay-to-beta-test and I'm already involved in other beta tests as it stands and worked the past 3-4 years as a software quality assurance technician, so I really don't feel like *paying* to provide my services in that area.
CCP, this is epic fail. This is not how you fix problems, this is how you increase them. I thought that nobody could out-Statesman Jack Emmert of Cryptic Studios when he instituted the Global Defense Nerf (GDN) and Enhancement Diversification, but I guess there's always a second time. Those two nerfs lost, by Jack's own admission in Gamasutra, over 6000 players within the first week, yet he never had the balls to rollback the patches to their previous stages and admit his screw up.
CCP, I hope you're smarter. I hope that you realize this is a dumb way of going about to fix God knows what that required such changes for those who are going to stick around for the ride. Unfortunately, I'm not one of them. _____________________________________
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Bat Baian
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Posted - 2008.11.12 22:19:00 -
[222]
/signed with both hands up
This "Improvement" in the gameplay SUCKS BIG TIME
There was something explained that the missiles were too good against small targets. Well I may kinda agrree to that but the "fix" was to intoduce a base explosion velocity of the cruise missiles for instance of 69m/s ????!!!!???? HELLOOOO .... Every f...ing batttleship in this game beats that speed even without AB. We aint talking just saving frigs from the big bad caldari missile boats. We are talking of nerfing the total missile gameplay. I had trained missiles for nearly 2 years and now this comes...
I am MAD AS HELL and seriously thinking of quiting the game. This was the last straw. If CCP are Ok of me canceling 3 accounts then I have nothing more to ad.
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Setactra
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Posted - 2008.11.12 22:20:00 -
[223]
Signed |
Essack Leadae
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.12 22:27:00 -
[224]
Edited by: Essack Leadae on 12/11/2008 22:29:05
/Signed
Of course, there is certainly some ways to adapt of this critical nerf, but this don't consider that it was already difficult to equilibrate a Caldari ship with the lack of medium slots, now it is worse as Target Painter and Stasis become nearly mandatory.
And we speak about a Š 90% efficiency nerf, who is really difficult to correct, in both pvp/pve.
The idea of the change himself is probably good.
Doing it by nerfing so much all missiles instead of a more reasonable number, is a proof of stupidity.
I don't hope, CCP will not correct a few this change, they proved many time that they are a studborn company.
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KTOZ
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.11.12 22:33:00 -
[225]
Caldari is a shield tank designed race.. and you have to put a warp dist, web, ab or mwd on your med slots to have a proper pvp ( just like the other classes do without dropping any tank ) .. erm i m abit confused now, if we spend another med slot for painter, how we will tank (just incase someone decide to shoot..)
Seriously is this a kind of joke ? or really someone came up with that genious idea to punish ppl for training missile/caldari skills for years..
Please next time dont fix something not broken.. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2008.11.12 22:35:00 -
[226]
/signed
A single MWD/AB (without any other speed mods) is for mobility/range control, not for tank. Giving huge missile damage reduction is like having warp disruptors give you the passive shield tank of a Drake. To fix it, we need one of two things:
1) Set explosion velocity equal to the speed of an ABing target of the appropriate size class. No nanos/overdrives/etc, no damage reduction, period. A MWD alone will give zero reduction, as the sig increase to velocity increase ratio is 1:1.
OR
2) Increase missile base damage. If you're going to give them all the "tracking" problems of guns, especially against same-size targets, they also need the maximum potential damage of guns.
----------- Blaster sig removed for now, pending those "changes we've been working on all day". CCP, don't screw this up.
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Aveng3X
Underworld Protection Agency
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:20:00 -
[227]
Edited by: Aveng3X on 13/11/2008 00:25:54 Edited by: Aveng3X on 13/11/2008 00:25:07 Edited by: Aveng3X on 13/11/2008 00:24:36 /signed
Crap constant DPS, has now been nerfed into crapper non-constant DPS.
I fly Caldari in PVP and PVE. But let's talk about PVP for now.
I can't tackle without sacrificing a lot of tank, and now I can't do jack-all DPS without taking another slot away? Come on.
I'm feeling like the only thing that Caldari has going for it right now is the Falcon. But with the amount of whiners about ECM, I'm guessing this will be nerfed soon too.
Well it was a good 7 months, I was feeling like I was finally going to have some fun in a HAC like a Cerb, but now it's time to train another race. Outstanding... NOT. I'd rather quit the game.
Originally by: KVOZ i ve already setted a long skill maybe it s time for a break ...
Don't forget to pay your subscription fee, CCP wants your money for that too! __________________________
Any views expressed are not necessarily the views of my corporation or alliance.
YARR! |
Kell Braugh
Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:26:00 -
[228]
Signed.
I actually have decided not to resubscribe due to this issue.
Being a Caldari-spec'd, missile spec'd pilot, I have no viable pvp options anymore besides a falcon tbqh. So much for balance. - In essence, any combat related activity involving damage has been 'speed nerfed' to just take 6 times longer with a predetermined outcome coined balance by CCP. |
Tsappo
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:43:00 -
[229]
/signed for the love of F*** |
Killer Kelly
The Social Club
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Posted - 2008.11.13 00:46:00 -
[230]
Originally by: Dracthera No impact to running missions in a NH/Drake on L4s. How are the CNR/Ravens performing if you add painters and/or flare rigs?
VERY glad to hear this. Might spend the raven money on some shield rigs instead.
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Typhado3
Minmatar Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2008.11.13 01:03:00 -
[231]
Edited by: Typhado3 on 13/11/2008 01:05:19 Edited by: Typhado3 on 13/11/2008 01:04:03 ran a few missions yesterday with my arbelist raven and tbh I can't see much of a difference and no real problem. If they hadn't been nerfed they would have been very overpowered though so I think ccp did ok here.
for reference I'm equally trianed in minmatar/caldari and mostly use missiles and drones. Tested against cruisers, bc and bs (all npc's) and seemed to do fine. Also this was using the exact same raven setup I had before patch, no painters or webs and only shield rigs on it
ccp fix mining agent missions % pls |
Nemesis1985
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 01:15:00 -
[232]
Thx for the fu**ing missel Nerf. first think and than do it! WHY????
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Taren Noreck
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 02:01:00 -
[233]
Signed
wasnt around for the first nerf, but this one has pretty put me off the golem i was so close to flying. Its like CCP doesnt want caldari to pvp.
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Anig Browl
Caldari
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Posted - 2008.11.13 03:07:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Vigaz
Most Awesome avatar ever ftw.
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Anig Browl
Caldari
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 03:53:00 -
[235]
Signed.
Originally by: DiseL
SIGNED!!!! It's ridiculous that my cruise Raven missile explosion travels 81 times slower than the missile itself.
Give that man a cigar. It's also ridiculous that a Heavy missile is now better than a cruise against a battleship.
"Cruise missiles: now good for shooting freighters and capitals." I mean I did some tests with my INDUSTRIAL vs my Raven and the industrial just got a lot more survivable with an AB and a smartbomb. Come on.
Quote: All the gunnery pilots can keep cheering that a missile nerf was a long time coming but the arguement doesn't fly when most pure PVPers still chose guns over missiles due to their effectiveness even prior to this expansion.
Win!!
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RedLion
Caldari Caldari Navy II
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Posted - 2008.11.13 04:07:00 -
[236]
missile needs boost, specially in fleet figths.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - The Gallenteans must be destroyed - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - |
Ashley Thomas
Kiith Paktu Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2008.11.13 04:20:00 -
[237]
drones ftw
guess its time to use caldari's other weapon, the rail
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Doc Iridium
Amarr Viziam
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Posted - 2008.11.13 04:31:00 -
[238]
/signed
I fly an Apoc, mission running. Yes, I fit 2x cruise launchers on the ship.
The changes seem to be way out of line. Well, I've said my piece - wait, is that Veldspar over there? Woot! |
Dal Deinvisu
Ventis Secundis
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Posted - 2008.11.13 06:54:00 -
[239]
/signed as a PvP missileer.
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Manos Soban
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 07:38:00 -
[240]
There are too many Caldarians in the game and i believe that was the reason CCP changes affect what race people will choose.
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BUFA
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 07:45:00 -
[241]
/Signed
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Arikanaiz
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 07:55:00 -
[242]
To all other races who think this is fair, seriously, do your math, and come up with a plausable arguement other than "HAHA YOU GUYS SUCK WORSE."
If you're gonna complaing about tracking, consider ROF, if you're gonna complain about damage, consider ammo amounts, if you wanna complain then give us some cold hard facts, with math equations and numbers. More caldari pilots have posted math supporting the fact that missiles completely suck, than any of you have even tried to give reason against.
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Salinas Montif
Caldari Out of Order
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Posted - 2008.11.13 08:10:00 -
[243]
While I feel that the QR patch is pretty good in most respects, the nerf to missiles is a bit over the top. I understand the intent of avoiding missile pawnage due to slower speeds, but the reductions that are in place now are woefully lower than necessary.
My suggestion would be... If you halved the explosion velocity of each missile from the pre Quantum Rise patch you would have had a good balance. Heavies were 750m/s, reducing that to 350m/s say would have been fine. An AB cruiser can easily push 500m/s and then reduce damage from missiles. While a frig would have a greater reduction of damage both from sig radius and there base speeds close to the explosion velocity already. But bringing it down to the current 81 m/s is really unexplainable. Same with Cruises. Pre patch it was 300m/s, 150m/s would have done nicely, and easily would have tied in with the reduction in BS base velocity. But 69 m/s is Hulk speed. A hulk with an AB could speed tank a cruise missile while rails and artillery would shoot it like it was standing still.
I don't think missiles should be brought back to there original values, I understand the intent, but I do disagree with the current values. They are simply too low. So..... <signed> |
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CCP Mitnal
C C P
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 08:43:00 -
[244]
Moved to Assembly Hall.
Mitnal Community Representative CCP Games, EVE Online Email / Netfang |
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FireFoxx80
Caldari E X O D U S Imperial Republic Of the North
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Posted - 2008.11.13 13:31:00 -
[245]
Whilst I support this move, I do think it's gone too far. You only need a minimal speed boost (which a single overdrive injector can provide) in order to tank missiles; even if you are heading straight towards them.
I applaud CCP for trying to bring missiles in-line with guns, but this is a nerf too far.
What I do the rest of the time - Vote for a Jita bypass! |
Vigaz
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 13:34:00 -
[246]
Edited by: Vigaz on 13/11/2008 13:33:57 /Signed & support
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Mithrandere
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 13:39:00 -
[247]
i vote.
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C4LYP50
The Sky Is The Limit
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 13:54:00 -
[248]
Edited by: C4LYP50 on 13/11/2008 13:56:13 Supported. Both this and other "features" brought about in QR have made me question, for the first time, if this game has its hooks in yet. I guess not, because as much as I enjoy (pre QR) it, these changes make me unhappy enough to consider it a bad investment, and act accordingly, before I get to that "I've got too much invested in this to quit" syndrome. One interesting point? After 5 years of EQ, and what Sony did to it, I had that kind of investment, and I left to come here, which softened the blow alot. It's not so hard, this time around. So, I unsubbed, although both my accounts are paid until Feb 09, and I'll play when/if it becomes enjoyable before then.
So...........U kant haz my stuffs, just yet.
Edit: Forgot to hit the thumbs up thingie after previewing.
Brunette By Birth...........Blonde By Nature. ------------------------------------------------ "Your suffering will be legendary, even in Hell." "No tears, please; it's a waste of good suffering." |
Musashibou Benkei
Combined Imperial Fleet
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 14:20:00 -
[249]
Edited by: Musashibou Benkei on 13/11/2008 14:21:03 This is the main points of argument for people for and against the new missile nerf -
People for the nerf: "Missiles were far too overpowered. They would be too effective against targets smaller than what cruise missiles are supposed to hit"
Answer to this: My guess is that 99% of people who say this are just plain happy because they used turrets to begin with. It's their way of throwing their anger around at the nano nerf and saying "HAHAHAHAHA. In your face!!" at someone. Anyone. Impotent rage at people who are actually making valid points
People for the nerf: "Adapt or die"
Answer to this: Those are some great words of wisdom coming from a 2003/2004 char who has every race trained anyway so they can smack-talk all they want and seem like they know everything. Remind us again how long it took for you to train up large hybrids to T2? And say that to the players who only just started playing. You think you know the answer to everything. Every game needs some sort of system that let's you make some easy money in the beginning. Missiles were just that.
Apart from the above points that I have stated, it's all about the rage from people who hated missiles in the first place and are letting off steam to make themself feel good.
P.S. reported eliminator2 for trolling on a forum and encouraging verbal fights to break out.
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Laechyd Eldgorn
Art of War Exalted.
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 14:47:00 -
[250]
Edited by: Laechyd Eldgorn on 13/11/2008 14:47:43
Originally by: Bad Messenger Missiles are just fine, iŠll change my skill plans to amarr, then i do not have to whine about missiles.
This
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Jach Wong
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 14:55:00 -
[251]
Originally by: Musashibou Benkei Edited by: Musashibou Benkei on 13/11/2008 14:21:03 This is the main points of argument for people for and against the new missile nerf -
People for the nerf: "Missiles were far too overpowered. They would be too effective against targets smaller than what cruise missiles are supposed to hit"
Answer to this: My guess is that 99% of people who say this are just plain happy because they used turrets to begin with. It's their way of throwing their anger around at the nano nerf and saying "HAHAHAHAHA. In your face!!" at someone. Anyone. Impotent rage at people who are actually making valid points
People for the nerf: "Adapt or die"
Answer to this: Those are some great words of wisdom coming from a 2003/2004 char who has every race trained anyway so they can smack-talk all they want and seem like they know everything. Remind us again how long it took for you to train up large hybrids to T2? And say that to the players who only just started playing. You think you know the answer to everything. Every game needs some sort of system that let's you make some easy money in the beginning. Missiles were just that.
Apart from the above points that I have stated, it's all about the rage from people who hated missiles in the first place and are letting off steam to make themself feel good.
P.S. reported eliminator2 for trolling on a forum and encouraging verbal fights to break out.
This man speaks the truth.
I honestly have a hard time seeing how missiles pre-QR could be argued as being overpowered. Conventional PVP wisdom seems to state pretty clearly that missiles, with the exception of a select few T2 ships, are not the way to go. One could argue that their lackings in PVP are balanced by their excellence in PVE, but even in PVE there are better T1 options than the Drake / Raven line.
I can only conclude that missiles before QR were at best balanced and at worst underpowered, and that any changes made in QR should be made solely to preserve the previous balance. "This is not the boot you're looking for." |
chatgris
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 15:25:00 -
[252]
Edited by: chatgris on 13/11/2008 15:25:56 I fly pure gallente (achura for the stats), but I switched from caldari after using them for a month because missiles were just that bad back then, they really didn't need a nerf.
I feel your pain even though I hate using missiles.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 15:29:00 -
[253]
YAY... no more 100's of ravens flying around.
Maybe I'll start seeing some "Spice" in EVE Online.
Funny Thread 10/10
/me thumbs down
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maddmaxx III
Caldari Middleton and Mercer LLP Sylph Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 15:51:00 -
[254]
CCP this is bull, you cant even make one reply to your costumers? Pitiful, You are losing 5 accounts today, why train anything in this game with the risk of it being nerfed, and no I am not talking about shooting frigs, I am talking about not doing realistic damage to BC's and BS's. Its sad to go really, I really do enjoy eve, but I will not train skills that could be obsolete in the future. And noone is getting my stuff.
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KTOZ
D00M. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 15:54:00 -
[255]
Thnx for atleast unlock the topic, now plz put it back to a regular forum part..
How can you throw a topic with 250 posts in 1 day ?? .. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Celtar
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 16:03:00 -
[256]
Signed |
Alex Wise
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 16:08:00 -
[257]
signed. I like changes - but this is too much. i just bought Reaven, now what do i do with it?! if CCP don't cancel the nerf, i might close my account. i won't pay for the game that sucks!!!!
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Riot Prone
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 16:26:00 -
[258]
Yep
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Rainsdon
Veto.
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 16:27:00 -
[259]
Edited by: Rainsdon on 13/11/2008 16:27:13 Signed.
_________________________________________________________
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Sarutobi Sasuke
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 16:36:00 -
[260]
/signed
CCP really out-did themselves with how much they fail this time
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Loyal Soldier
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 16:40:00 -
[261]
/signed
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evePreD
Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 17:00:00 -
[262]
Edited by: evePreD on 13/11/2008 17:07:24 Hello there
/signed
I don't understand this nerf
I'll explain my pov.
First, I make real test.
Most missile basic skills @ lvl 5, some lvl 4 All missile adv skills @ lvl 4
In a hawk/crow, i tried to hit a ares orbiting me at a real speed of ~2400m/s and ~5000m/s
Target at ~2400m/s Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile hits, doing 32.2 damage. Bloodclaw Precision Light Missile hits, doing 32.5 damage.
Target at ~5000m/s Caldari Navy Bloodclaw Light Missile hits Sir Nuke, doing 22.2 damage. Bloodclaw Precision Light Missile hits, doing 23.0 damage.
What are we suppose to do know with precision light missile when there less effective damage than T1 faction missile ? (every pvpeur should/use faction)
Btw, with T1 missile you dont get the speed malus on your ship, and you'r missile flight 2 times longer than T2
That's only an example.
Now torps. Few months ago, we got a explosion velocity nerf, a little boost to ROF, and a massive range nerf (-400%) After this patch, to make full damage on a BS, we were forced to put a painter, and to hit target put a AB/MWD
A little reminder : caldari tank shield = we use med slot for that, there ships aren't design to tank armor (not enought low slot) "ewar" module (painter, web, AB/MWD) fit ONLY on med slot
Ok, some a us deal with hit, damage with torp was still good enough, but you'r forced to lower you'r tank by removing one or two tank module (SB ampli, hard., LSE,...)
Know we got explosion velocity nerf. T1 Torp and cruise missile got 'exactly' the same explosion velocity; something likes 100m/s with skill lvl 4
That's mean we are now 'forced' to put a WEB and remove again a tank module if we wanna a 'full' DPS..... hey AB/MWD + WEB/painter... what the hell, only 4 slot to tank with a raven ?!
And something about speednerf too (thats in direct relation with missile nerf) Ok now we got slower BS. Ok AB got boosted (only low meta level, T2 AB are exacly the same than before), but with the basic speed of my BS, i loose -20/-30% speed (and now, no more speed gang bonus = -30/-40% less speed in gang)
But, WHY thoose stupids NPC wont get nerfed There BS (angel) still go 170m/s !!! (remember the nicely new explosion velocity of cruise/torp of 100m/s)
It took me 10min, but i found what i want in my game log :
On shield Angel saint (bs sized NPC, going 170m/s), my torp (3 damage mod) makes PRE PATCH: 225 damage POST PATCH : 386.6 damage (there is no mistake, damage on hull is something like 690)
Thats a lovely ~35-40% nerf
Obviously, you'll have the same result with cruise missile (same explo velocity than torp)
Btw, full damage are still not reached when you shoot at a cap ship going full speed (ok ok, a cap ship under fire is web 95% of time...)
The funiest thing is heavy missile who are not able to make full DPS on a BS (a ship who's 2 classes bigger than a cruiser)
And I won't talk about the chapter where ship speed tank your cruise/torp with a little AB
Finally, i'm agree with CCP, missile should need a nerf because of the new speed nerf, but not likes that !
T1 Torp and cruise was fine, why nerf them ?! T2 cruise may need a nerf, but with low explo velo, there are useless now.
With old stats, heavy missile won't be overpowered against a cruise sized ship who goes +2000m/s (explo velo was only 1000m/s)
nb : sry for my english :(
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 17:01:00 -
[263]
YAY! More people closing accounts!
Means less lag!
^_^
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Musashibou Benkei
Caldari Combined Imperial Fleet
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 17:06:00 -
[264]
Originally by: Drake Draconis YAY! More people closing accounts!
Means less lag!
^_^
YAY! Someone who isn't signing this petition and is simply trolling for fun!!
reported
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Anaee
Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 17:16:00 -
[265]
/signed
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Satene
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 17:25:00 -
[266]
/Signed x6
I am supporting this pettition 100%. CCP has changed the dynamics of the game so much that I lost completely interest in playing the game any more. After multiple missile nerfs, this last one is simply rediculous. I tested in PVP with my Nighthawk, Manticore, and Caldari Navi Raven. I have maxed missile skills on one toon and max skills on gunnery on other toon. Missile boats are so outclassed in various combat scenarios that they are simply inferrior. Game is broken. I am letting my children's accounts expire in two weeks (they were both Caldari and their interest was weak and only NPC) and my two industry and trade support accounts. My combat peeps have about 2, and 3 months left and will let them expire. I am dissapointed in training so long and seeing a great game go backwards. This is not an expansion - it is simply a patch, a bad one at that.
I am incuding below my detailed pre patch post fyi.
Satene
Posted - 2008.11.07 05:15:00 - [789] - QuoteReport
--------------------------------------------------------------
I have spent hours reading the changes in missiles and things are definitely going in the wrong direction.
Caldari MUST use mids for tanking. New changes require more mids to be sacrified to achieve full efectiveness of missiles. Complexity is getting rediculous. This very reason for mids handicap, made Caldari so weak in solo pvp. Gang pvp is not an answer. You can say go in gangs to fill any deficiency in any scenario but really not the answer to this major missile nerf.
Why CCP has to screw so much with missiles is beyond me. Speed issue can be fixed many other ways.
Lets put things in simple terms for example:
There is NO way to win in a Raven vs a Domi/Megathron in pvp, providing equally skilled oponents and appropriate top mods. Can CCP see this clearly? Or this is done on purpose.
Or there is NO way a Nighthawk will win against Astarte in pvp, providing equally skilled oponents and appropriate top mods. Can CCP see this clearly? Or this is done on purpose.
The above list can go a long way like this.
My point is, missiles ARE TO COMPENSATE for the mid slots tanking (defence) and MWD/AB/WEB/TP/WS... (offence) PROBLEM or HANDICAP. It is a major Caldari disadvantage and has always been. There are no mid slots to fit all this to be any effective with missiles.
So STOP with nerfing missiles in general and deal with 10km/s Cruisers flying arround. Cruisers should not be fatser than missiles period. Under any circumstances.
Or maybe you will blend all the featuers in this game so much that everything becomes so nerferd and blended that peeps lose interest and the edge in the game. It is a scary thought, but it has happened before.
Respectfully,
Satene 1 of 6 Accounts
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Brutor tribe
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 17:49:00 -
[267]
Originally by: Musashibou Benkei
Originally by: Drake Draconis YAY! More people closing accounts!
Means less lag!
^_^
YAY! Someone who isn't signing this petition and is simply trolling for fun!!
reported
This whole damn thread is a troll. So why don't you take your bitter caldari character and take a nice long trip to WOW for a change eh?
This is utterly insane.... its just as bad as the ghost training crap... only worse.
So yeah... go ahead and report me... I honestly think you guys are just griping to be griping. I'm getting a good laugh out of it.
Tootles!
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Aiko Intaki
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 18:02:00 -
[268]
Changes were needed, but the ratio of how explosion vs. sig radius and explosion vs. target velocity factor into damage needs to be tweaked a bit. Cruise missiles should be hitting battleships for full damage considering velocity alone, but not WTF owning frigates. CCP got half of that equation correct in QR, but the error they made in over nerfing on explosion velocity will hurt low-sp characters the most.
I'm almost more peeved that 7+ million SP in missiles (cruise-centric) only nets me a low-level booby-prize certification. That's for another thread, however...
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John Duster
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 18:05:00 -
[269]
BS sized guns hit BS's for full sometimes they hit for less and so it was proclaimed by the masses that missles were balanced.
But alas delzy is the elephant in the room, as long as it is taking 8+ seconds for my missles to reach my target it should be real simple
BS cruise missle + BS Target = full damage.
thats the trade I get for having to wait while you get a good shot at jumping away before my volley hits.
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evePreD
Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 18:13:00 -
[270]
Edited by: evePreD on 13/11/2008 18:13:40
Originally by: John Duster BS sized guns hit BS's for full sometimes they hit for less and so it was proclaimed by the masses that missles were balanced.
But alas delzy is the elephant in the room, as long as it is taking 8+ seconds for my missles to reach my target it should be real simple
BS cruise missle + BS Target = full damage.
thats the trade I get for having to wait while you get a good shot at jumping away before my volley hits.
The pb is that missiles DPS ~30% LESS than guns (pre patch... now its something likes 50-60% ?)
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Glendel
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 18:23:00 -
[271]
Signed
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Seaden
Gallente Arcadian Enterprises
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 19:56:00 -
[272]
Who ever bright idea was this must have there head examined. Seriously, missiles are USELESS now, What I'd suggest is having two parts to the missile, The "impact" damage and a chance to do 2ed damage thus the "explosion damage". Thus being the one you can avoid with speed but still take like 10% of the damage.
Or just please, reverse the missile Nerf, the worse idea EVER in my book. If it doesn't get fixed i think I'll quit playing and take the money i spend on 3 accounts else where.
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Gael Itrus
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 20:02:00 -
[273]
Originally by: maddmaxx III CCP this is bull, you cant even make one reply to your costumers? Pitiful, You are losing 5 accounts today, why train anything in this game with the risk of it being nerfed, and no I am not talking about shooting frigs, I am talking about not doing realistic damage to BC's and BS's. Its sad to go really, I really do enjoy eve, but I will not train skills that could be obsolete in the future. And noone is getting my stuff.
I am in your position. I don't want to leave Eve, but at this point it is essentially a waste of time to train for anything.
You have broken missiles and rendered an entire race useless. Fix missiles please, if these "improvements" stick I will be cancelling my account.
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Cage Tradesman
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 20:20:00 -
[274]
Maybe not mentioned is the sheer COST associated with being forced to pummel NPC's with 5x the # of missiles as before.... Un-Nerf the Missile Boats and bring back my Raven... I don't have 3 hours to wipe out 20 Cruisers and Frig before getting to the BC's. Talk about a lousey ISK to Time ratio!!
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RoCkEt X
The Order of Chivalry Nex Eternus
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 20:24:00 -
[275]
signed.
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Poast Warrior
Imperial Academy
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 20:36:00 -
[276]
Not that I'm in disagreement, but if you want to see how effective voting in assembly is just see the original nano nerf thread that was against this mess to begin with.
Nothing will change, waste of time :(
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ChaseTheLasers
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 20:40:00 -
[277]
Signed.
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maddmaxx III
Caldari Middleton and Mercer LLP Sylph Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 21:12:00 -
[278]
Originally by: Poast Warrior Not that I'm in disagreement, but if you want to see how effective voting in assembly is just see the original nano nerf thread that was against this mess to begin with.
Nothing will change, waste of time :(
The nano nerf was needed
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CaPsA
Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 21:49:00 -
[279]
/Signed Signature inappropriate for a teen rated forum - Valorem |
Stegreen
Gallente
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 22:10:00 -
[280]
/Signed,
I'm not Caldari and never played a caldari rase, i am Gallente myself I never use missiles, but i managed to speed tank a Raven with my Dominix it was funny, but it is destroying the game.
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oilio
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 22:32:00 -
[281]
/signed |
Jayoasis
Gallente b.b.k The Last Stand
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 22:43:00 -
[282]
The Med drone nurf has ****ed me right off, my curent Thorax is now useless for missions :( □ΞVΞ□
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Jaryn Vek
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 23:55:00 -
[283]
consider this signed.
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Khamal Jolstien
Product Number 3
|
Posted - 2008.11.13 23:58:00 -
[284]
Signing this, now with fancy thumbs up.
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Stalina
Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad
|
Posted - 2008.11.14 00:00:00 -
[285]
Edited by: Stalina on 14/11/2008 00:03:39
Originally by: Party SoL signed
with the nerf i don't need to fight in pvp..
now a 800m/s frig can kill my raven... =( and i didn*t damage it....
this is very bad missiles are realy low and now they make less dps
Now if the frig would be webbed down to like 300m/s and you would be sitting in an astarte, you would not even hit him. Difference is that you are using medium guns ( cruiser-sized ), no bs class weapons. Just FYI.
Originally by: Arikanaiz
Turrets don't miss 9/10, Tracking doesn't effect damage against another battleship even if the thing is using an AB, they have more turrets and a higher ROF.
If missiles get unnerfed, they need to change turrets accordingly. Or webs.
________________
Originally by: Malcanis
Hey I've got an idea: why don't you and your nerf-crying ilk never, ever post again.
See what you've done. Look what you did.
Now shush.
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Deej Montana
Outbound Flight
|
Posted - 2008.11.14 00:08:00 -
[286]
Not only did CCP handicap Caldari even more in PvP, they managed to make PvE damned unpleasant as well. This mess needs to be revisited. |
Slistine Death
Sons of Angelus Mortis
|
Posted - 2008.11.14 00:09:00 -
[287]
Edited by: Slistine Death on 14/11/2008 00:11:32 /signed Using Cald and missiles for pvp was hard before, now it is impossible.
Say goodbye to 3 accounts and my stuff will get deleted so don't ask.
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Lord Symatar
|
Posted - 2008.11.14 00:21:00 -
[288]
signed 1000 times
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.11.14 00:26:00 -
[289]
Originally by: Stalina Edited by: Stalina on 14/11/2008 00:03:39
Originally by: Party SoL signed
with the nerf i don't need to fight in pvp..
now a 800m/s frig can kill my raven... =( and i didn*t damage it....
this is very bad missiles are realy low and now they make less dps
Now if the frig would be webbed down to like 300m/s and you would be sitting in an astarte, you would not even hit him. Difference is that you are using medium guns ( cruiser-sized ), no bs class weapons. Just FYI.
Originally by: Arikanaiz
Turrets don't miss 9/10, Tracking doesn't effect damage against another battleship even if the thing is using an AB, they have more turrets and a higher ROF.
If missiles get unnerfed, they need to change turrets accordingly. Or webs.
Sure, as long as missiles can get instant damage, increased dps, and wrecking hits. Oh, and a few mid slots to actually use ewar mods (barring ewar ships of course)
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Raveln
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Posted - 2008.11.14 00:34:00 -
[290]
I and my friend did some intercorp sparring to see how much this was going to affect me in the game. My paradise cruise missile did 387 damage while my friend was at 0 m/s speed. Over 200 m/s speed, my friend took 218 damage. 43% damage reduction for him to simply fly at 233 m/s in a bs!
Why do I deserve this? I didn't complain about speed. I didn't complain about previous comparatively low dps for missiles.
What is up with this? If patches and expansions pull this crap, I would rather there be no patches or expansions. From what I read in the forums, CCP has a history of not changing the nerfs. So what I have to look forward to for future patches and expansions seem to be many nerfs and changes to stats without regard to consequences. So at any time, my skills can be nullified along with the time spent training them. I do not look forward to this aspect of the game at all. What a waste of time training missile skills. What other skills will be nullified in the future? It would be nice to know now so I don't waste any more time.
And then people say "adapt or leave"? This is absurd. No company who adopts this stupid attitude will last long. They go out of business. Who supports who here? Telling people adapt or leave, will cause people to leave, giving CCP less sales. Less sales is bad for business. Bad business means eve suffers. Is that what you want to do for a game you like? Urge people to do something that hurts the game? Stupid advice. And what about those who adapt? Is that better than leaving? Sounds like people who let others walk all over them to me. In that case, stop posting "adapt or leave" in the forums if all you are going to do is be walked on. I'm pretty close to giving up on eve if this kind of attitude continues. The only thing keeping me going at the moment is the friends I have in my corp. Looking at training for other ships besides CNR and ravens now. Sheesh, how lame to have to start over skills in turrets just to pvp. After retraining, you better not nerf anything else CCP. I've almost had my last straw. I only allow myself to be walked on for so long.
/signed
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Valerius Dominicus
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Posted - 2008.11.14 01:03:00 -
[291]
signed
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Becq Starforged
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2008.11.14 01:32:00 -
[292]
Currently, missiles cannot even hit for full damage against ships of their own size class, moving at un-boosted speeds, and lose the bulk of their effectiveness against ships of their size class moving at un-nanoed afterburner speeds. This is ridiculous. I full support the principle of the changes to missiles to increase the differentiation between ship classes, but this implemented is badly thought out. Please revise it so that missiles can be effective against ships of their own class.
-- Becq Starforged Ushra'Khan
The Flame of Freedom Burns On! |
Kell Archer
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Posted - 2008.11.14 01:51:00 -
[293]
i support this thread in its entirety.
I have been robbed of my gameplay and 8 months of training time. unacceptable period. I will NOT continue to play, support or payfor this game if this is not changed to a more resonable system.
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Triest
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.11.14 02:55:00 -
[294]
Edited by: Triest on 14/11/2008 02:55:46 i cant belive this change, now my torps dont hit cruisers and frigates in missions and i cant make isk ive spent 1 year on missle skill training and its WORTHLESS now ive already cancelled my 3 accounts wts 3 CNR with CNR fittings. signed x3
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Nnamuachs
Kiith Paktu Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2008.11.14 03:30:00 -
[295]
/Signed
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Brandon McGovern
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Posted - 2008.11.14 04:02:00 -
[296]
signed
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Arikanaiz
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Posted - 2008.11.14 04:09:00 -
[297]
Please when you post, don't forget to look at the bottom before you reply and select support this topic!
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Ignition SemperFi
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2008.11.14 05:15:00 -
[298]
good thing to see stuff get moved to assembly hall now, instead of requiring seperate threads.
either way this nerf albeit needed to protect smaller vessels from larger ships missiles.
allows someone to speed tank missiles w/ just 1 mod is beyond rediculious ------ People Say Im paranoid because I have a gun, I say I dont have to be paranoid because I have a gun.
Garmon - "I LOK ON TO ROMULAN WARBIRD AND GO POW POW POW" |
Plomeo
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Posted - 2008.11.14 05:27:00 -
[299]
signed
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Doc Iridium
One Stop Mining Shop
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Posted - 2008.11.14 05:36:00 -
[300]
Thank you, CCP, for re-opening this topic.
I may fly Amarr ships, and I may have the ability to avoid this nerf to a great degree, but the entire concept of a nerf on this scale is completely against any sane customer relations policy.
I DO fly a Purifier, and I DO use cruise missile launchers on my Apoc. Both of these things which I trained for are now close to useless. The entire purpose of putting cruise missiles on my Apoc was for kinetic/explosive damage as an option. Now my lasers do nearly the same damage as cruise missiles, even on targets which are highly Therm/EM resistant. How many days of training have now been made utterly meaningless? I can still use my Cov ops V skill for scanning, but the Purifier is now just a 0.0 / lowsec taxi.
/signed Well, I've said my piece - wait, is that Veldspar over there? Woot! |
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I SoStoned
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Posted - 2008.11.14 05:54:00 -
[301]
Agreed.
The goal was to change speed, to bring ships down to a velocity that allowed positive engagement on both sides (especially for missile users who were distinctly feeling left out of PvP by the large simply because they could not damage anything they hit) but with Quantum Fail not only are speeds reduced, but the ability to slow ships down was likewise reduced.
The net result: Nothing changed.
And then missiles were rendered so much worse than they were prior to Quantum Fail that missile users are left even further behind the curve. Explosion velocities should have been increased, not decreased.
And no, I don't use missiles as a primary weapon (because they've been terribly sub-par since the introduction of explosion velocity. THAT was a godsend, but failed to factor for the steady increase in speed). I prefer every other weapon system... though, granted, Artillery is just as bad (if not worse).
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Ghalan Amoerin
Destroyers Of the Freeworld THORN Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.14 06:40:00 -
[302]
/signed
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Avok
COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.11.14 07:03:00 -
[303]
/signed
Nerf is too strong !!
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Esercitare
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Posted - 2008.11.14 08:21:00 -
[304]
/signed - patch is trash
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Stalina
Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad
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Posted - 2008.11.14 09:27:00 -
[305]
Edited by: Stalina on 14/11/2008 09:37:31
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien
Sure, as long as missiles can get instant damage, increased dps, and wrecking hits. Oh, and a few mid slots to actually use ewar mods (barring ewar ships of course)
Sure, as long as missiles also get only scratching hits, missiles get "no hits", turrets get all zero capusage, armor tanks get passive armor regen and med slots energy neutralizer so we dont have to unfit guns...see what I did here?
And if you talk about instant damage, you mean in a fight that starts at the optimal of a blaster oder autocannon ship? Or when do you get instant damage from a turret ? Ah yes, when sniping stationary objetcs or slow moving target with big signature, doing meh damage to them.
Ever flown a turrert ship?
Edit: Learn to read, I did not ask to give turrets the same abilities missiles have, I said they need a change too. Or webs. At the time missiles get changed. ________________
Originally by: Malcanis
Hey I've got an idea: why don't you and your nerf-crying ilk never, ever post again.
See what you've done. Look what you did.
Now shush.
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Clydar Dramos
101st Space Marine Force The Leathernecks
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Posted - 2008.11.14 10:12:00 -
[306]
I hate this patch too... Notice I say patch, not expansion, as it didn't expand anything... (it a good way)
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MasT3R
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Posted - 2008.11.14 10:21:00 -
[307]
Edited by: MasT3R on 14/11/2008 10:23:43 /SIGNED !!
Patch with low and very bad add
Dev think before give this plz !!!
I play since 4 years and it s the firts time that ccp give addon good for the trash
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T'lk
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Posted - 2008.11.14 10:21:00 -
[308]
signed
Just bought a CNR a day before the patch...6 m sp in missiles...I can just trash my character...
Fix it please !
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Ademia
Adder Unlimited 12
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Posted - 2008.11.14 10:37:00 -
[309]
well with my 10 mil sp in missiles rendered almost useless - check ill go back to my 7 mil sp in gunnery and use my caldari non missile speced ships - check lol time to start using my eagle onyx vulture and rokh just to name a few..and be even more subpar on all fronts - check my account is cancelled only 2 days left and im not gona prolong my sub..
/ signed.
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Danillo Z
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Posted - 2008.11.14 10:44:00 -
[310]
/signed
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NereSky
Trinity Nova Trinity Nova Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.14 10:57:00 -
[311]
Well i will have to try and adapt and overcome but i agree ive never agreed with the missile damage nerf as its always been non-realistic but then again when has some aspects of eve been realistic?
i would have preferred missile speed nerfed with the larger missiles making them harder to hit a small tgt ie the bigger the punch the missile is capable of the closer you have to get to the target and mayber the slower the missile go's, but damage reduced because the tgt is smaller 0.o
I agree the missile damage/speed and distance needs re- addressing but to more realistic statistics
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.14 11:51:00 -
[312]
Not signed, please do not reverse the missile boost.
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Mrs Organix
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Posted - 2008.11.14 14:07:00 -
[313]
signed!
i'll quit eve in 1 month if nothing change .. im caldari since 1 year and i'm absolutely f***ed now ... CCP first thinking then doing ... |
Mr Organix
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Posted - 2008.11.14 14:09:00 -
[314]
i'll quit eve if GTC is running out ... thanks CCP for the most stupid change i have ever seen ... |
Vigaz
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Posted - 2008.11.14 14:11:00 -
[315]
Originally by: Gypsio III Not signed, please do not reverse the missile boost.
Since you are not stupid, I have to consider that you do that on purpose.
I'm still asking my self: Why? Because you are part of the dev team? because you want to be hire from CCP? Those are just stupid questions, could you please answer this:
Could you please provide evidence of the boost of missiles? |
Una D
Ex Coelis The Bantam Menace
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Posted - 2008.11.14 14:42:00 -
[316]
Hell no!
The changes are good. People just need to rethink their old ideas about missiles. |
Vigaz
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Posted - 2008.11.14 14:50:00 -
[317]
Originally by: Una D Hell no!
The changes are good. People just need to rethink their old ideas about missiles.
Missiles pre QR were underpowered, post QR they are close to be useless.
As you can see, I rethink my old ideas about missiles.
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El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.11.14 14:50:00 -
[318]
Definitely not signed.
Large missile ability vs small ships is now similar to that of large turrets, and has been INCREASED vs larger targets.
If you think missiles aren't balanced then you need to accept that the review of weapons, tracking and combat pre-QR was UNFINISHED and that they all need a looksee, including inter-race and intra-class balance (e.g. torp raven vs blaster thron).
If you think turrets are fine, then missiles are too.
If you think that missiles are unbalanced because of anything to do with missions or NPCs, you are wrong, because PVE is not relevant to balance. _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.11.14 15:35:00 -
[319]
Originally by: Vigaz Could you please provide evidence of the boost of missiles?
With pleasure. I am a 37-mill SP character completely specialised in Caldari missile spamming. I have investigated the new missile damage formula extremely thoroughly.
Under the previous mechanics, it was trivial for cruisers and below to avoid 99% of missile damage simply by hitting MWD and going faster then explosion velocity + 2x falloff (precision lights excluded). The high speeds of those ships meant that range advantage of long-range missiles was fairly meaningless, so long-range missile users were unable to defend their range advantage.
With the new mechanics, missile damage linked to sig radius far better, making MWDs a 500% self-painter. Missile damage against fast MWDing targets is vastly improved, immensely increasing HMs' ability to inflict damage. This, in conjunction with the slowing of all ships, has vastly increased the long-range missile users' abilities to maintain range, and deliver meaningful DPS across the battlefield. Also, missile users now have options for increasing damage against fast targets, such as painters and Crash, enabling a greater range of tactics.
Short-ranged missiles - HAMs and torps - are unchanged in practice, as they required your target to be webbed beforehand anyway, to stop it simply MWDing away and laughing at you. Rage HAMs still do full damage to webbed ABing BC, torps still do full damage to painted, webbed BS - mods that were required beforehand. In fact, they're really received a stealth buff, as their AC- and blaster counterparts now find it harder to get to optimal, and the range advantage of torps is more meaningful.
Specific examples:
HM Drake boosted, as it can now hit fast targets for meaningful damage and defend its range advantage.
HAM Drake boosted, because of increased Rage damage and the greater difficulty of its AC-and blaster-fit counterparts in getting to optimal.
AML Cerberus boosted, as now it is deadly to all interceptors, rather than just non-pimped ones.
HML Cerberus boosted, as it can now deliver massively more damage to MWDing cruisers, enabling it to defend its range advantage and even meaningfully damage interceptors. Its ability to damage Falcons is unchanged, as its ability to damage tackled targets of its size or greater.
Torp Raven boosted, because no additional tackle needed in your gang (I don't regard the torp Raven as a sensible solo ship, nor that it should be one), and the greater difficulty of its AC-and blaster-fit counterparts in getting to optimal.
Problems:
Cruise. Its PVP role was one of antisupport, this has been hit. Although note that the nanoed support in question could have previously avoided pretty much all Cruise damage simply by hitting MWD, a feat that is now impossible.
SBs. Although they can now damage interceptors at speed, their ability to instapop frigates - which is really the entire point of the class - has been hit. Note, however, that this is really a SB problem, rather than a missile problem, and that CCP has said they are looking at reworking SBs.
Rockets. Well, possibly. They're ok if you can web your target, and have a significant range advantage over ACs and blasters, a range that is easier to maintain with nerfed webs. But frigates, with their limited slots, have difficulty fitting a web, so this may require looking at, I'm not sure.
Perceived problems that really aren't problems:
OMG Afterburners! Will not be used commonly used on BCs or BS and their ability to mitigate missile damage is massively reduced as soon as they get webbed - which is easily done by a MWDing ship.
OMG I can't hit small ships as easily! Neither can turrets, in general - certainly not within web range.
In short, the combat utility of missiles has been, in general, vastly improved.
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Jade Constantine
Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2008.11.14 15:55:00 -
[320]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Vigaz Could you please provide evidence of the boost of missiles?
With pleasure. I am a 37-mill SP character completely specialised in Caldari missile spamming. I have investigated the new missile damage formula extremely thoroughly.
Under the previous mechanics, it was trivial for cruisers and below to avoid 99% of missile damage simply by hitting MWD and going faster then explosion velocity + 2x falloff (precision lights excluded). The high speeds of those ships meant that range advantage of long-range missiles was fairly meaningless, so long-range missile users were unable to defend their range advantage.
With the new mechanics, missile damage linked to sig radius far better, making MWDs a 500% self-painter. Missile damage against fast MWDing targets is vastly improved, immensely increasing HMs' ability to inflict damage. This, in conjunction with the slowing of all ships, has vastly increased the long-range missile users' abilities to maintain range, and deliver meaningful DPS across the battlefield. Also, missile users now have options for increasing damage against fast targets, such as painters and Crash, enabling a greater range of tactics.
Short-ranged missiles - HAMs and torps - are unchanged in practice, as they required your target to be webbed beforehand anyway, to stop it simply MWDing away and laughing at you. Rage HAMs still do full damage to webbed ABing BC, torps still do full damage to painted, webbed BS - mods that were required beforehand. In fact, they're really received a stealth buff, as their AC- and blaster counterparts now find it harder to get to optimal, and the range advantage of torps is more meaningful.
Specific examples:
HM Drake boosted, as it can now hit fast targets for meaningful damage and defend its range advantage.
HAM Drake boosted, because of increased Rage damage and the greater difficulty of its AC-and blaster-fit counterparts in getting to optimal.
AML Cerberus boosted, as now it is deadly to all interceptors, rather than just non-pimped ones.
HML Cerberus boosted, as it can now deliver massively more damage to MWDing cruisers, enabling it to defend its range advantage and even meaningfully damage interceptors. Its ability to damage Falcons is unchanged, as its ability to damage tackled targets of its size or greater.
Torp Raven boosted, because no additional tackle needed in your gang (I don't regard the torp Raven as a sensible solo ship, nor that it should be one), and the greater difficulty of its AC-and blaster-fit counterparts in getting to optimal.
Problems:
Cruise. Its PVP role was one of antisupport, this has been hit. Although note that the nanoed support in question could have previously avoided pretty much all Cruise damage simply by hitting MWD, a feat that is now impossible.
SBs. Although they can now damage interceptors at speed, their ability to instapop frigates - which is really the entire point of the class - has been hit. Note, however, that this is really a SB problem, rather than a missile problem, and that CCP has said they are looking at reworking SBs.
Rockets. Well, possibly. They're ok if you can web your target, and have a significant range advantage over ACs and blasters, a range that is easier to maintain with nerfed webs. But frigates, with their limited slots, have difficulty fitting a web, so this may require looking at, I'm not sure.
Perceived problems that really aren't problems:
OMG Afterburners! Will not be used commonly used on BCs or BS and their ability to mitigate missile damage is massively reduced as soon as they get webbed - which is easily done by a MWDing ship.
OMG I can't hit small ships as easily! Neither can turrets, in general - certainly not within web range.
In short, the combat utility of missiles has been, in general, vastly improved.
This man speaks the truth. I can do nothing more than urge the OP to read and understand.
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maddmaxx III
Caldari Middleton and Mercer LLP Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.14 16:25:00 -
[321]
Edited by: maddmaxx III on 14/11/2008 16:31:36 Edited by: maddmaxx III on 14/11/2008 16:31:05
Originally by: El Yatta Definitely not signed.
Large missile ability vs small ships is now similar to that of large turrets, and has been INCREASED vs larger targets.
If you think missiles aren't balanced then you need to accept that the review of weapons, tracking and combat pre-QR was UNFINISHED and that they all need a looksee, including inter-race and intra-class balance (e.g. torp raven vs blaster thron).
If you think turrets are fine, then missiles are too.
If you think that missiles are unbalanced because of anything to do with missions or NPCs, you are wrong, because PVE is not relevant to balance.
Ok, the sooner you people get this through your head the better, its not about large missiles vs small ships, its about heavy, cruise, and torps, doing accurate damage to BC's and bigger. Got it now? its been stated many times, wake the **** up. And no combat utility vs large targets has not been improved. |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.11.14 16:52:00 -
[322]
/me applauds and agrees with Jade Constantine... and the individual who he quoted.
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Lady Trouble
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Posted - 2008.11.14 17:22:00 -
[323]
Okay after the patch i logged in to contine on my level 4 missions..and i was amazed at the changes yall made. Same mission ive done before without any problems and within 30 seconds i almost lose my raven cause i couldnt kill the freaking scramble frig. Both my accounts will be cancelled. What a waste of my money. |
wingnutzz
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Posted - 2008.11.14 17:32:00 -
[324]
Originally by: Lady Trouble Okay after the patch i logged in to contine on my level 4 missions..and i was amazed at the changes yall made. Same mission ive done before without any problems and within 30 seconds i almost lose my raven cause i couldnt kill the freaking scramble frig. Both my accounts will be cancelled. What a waste of my money.
Light drones are for frigs, always have been, why would you waste expensive cruise missiles on frigs? or torps which is even more silly.
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Korovyov
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2008.11.14 18:23:00 -
[325]
Originally by: Jade Constantine This man speaks the truth. I can do nothing more than urge the OP to read and understand.
It's like milk is a drug, and my droogs have been taken away. |
Vigaz
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Posted - 2008.11.14 18:54:00 -
[326]
I prefer speaking about missiles that I really use a lot: Torp/Cruise
FACT: I can post kills of nano cruiser (vaga/ishtar/rapier) died against my Cruise Raven. What you miss here is the old Webber power, with the old missile formula. In QR, it's impossible for a cruise raven to reach 100% damage against AB/MWD speed tanking cruiser using 1,2 or even 3 meds (read here med slot from support ships if you prefer).
I'm not telling it was easy killing nano, just that it was possible without blob, in QR is impossible for a Cruise Raven ---> Nerf Cruise missiles are less effective against frig <-> BC ----------------> Nerf
Also for SB, it was a flyable ship, now it's just a lol ship against any frig/cruiser/BC/BS/etc ----> Nerf
Torps: BS AB speed tanking is very powerful (more than pre-QR MWD BS speed tank), BC/CS can not be threaten by torps any more. ----> Nerf
About the stealth buff, BSs had max speeds higher pre QR, but to mitigate speed nerf, Close range BSs have received more agility to reach top speed early. Also Torps had 10% range reduction. In a typical 10-20km distance situation, it doesn't have any impact. ----> just a fair modification.
Originally by: Gypsio III
HM Drake boosted, as it can now hit fast targets for meaningful damage and defend its range advantage. HAM Drake boosted, because of increased Rage damage and the greater difficulty of its AC-and blaster-fit counterparts in getting to optimal.
HM Drake was alrdy able to do that with nano, with just 1 support ship with just 1 web fitted. how many meds (of your team) do u need now for full dmg now? more than 1? ------> Nerf HAM Drake does more dmg to BS (only t2 rage), less dmg to BC or smaller for t1/t2 ammo ----> mmm I dunno, t2 rage can compensate the less dmg to BC and smaller?
Originally by: Gypsio III
HML Cerberus boosted, as it can now deliver massively more damage to MWDing cruisers, enabling it to defend its range advantage and even meaningfully damage interceptors. Its ability to damage Falcons is unchanged, as its ability to damage tackled targets of its size or greater.
We have to see how many pilots will use MWDing cruisers now, AB is by far better to speed tank. Also your example is not speaking about ewar necessary to delivery 'massively' more damage, 3Meds+2rig+booster+t2ammo? Pre QR one Webber was ok for 100% Dmg, or am I wrong?
Originally by: Gypsio III
Perceived problems that really aren't problems: OMG Afterburners! Will not be used commonly used on BCs or BS and their ability to mitigate missile damage is massively reduced as soon as they get webbed - which is easily done by a MWDing ship.
It's your opinion about a not known trend. For a short range BC/BS I guess that we can see at least 50% using MWD and 50% using AB (new scrambler bonus + AB tank + lower cap for AB). For medium range BC/BS better to orbit at optimal with AB than using a MWD, and in any case, if MWD is fitted also for medium range, the new formula allows high dmg reduction only pulse MWD ON/OFF (dmg mitigation with this technique is close to AB speed tanking).
Where is the missile buff? |
El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.11.14 19:09:00 -
[327]
Originally by: maddmaxx III Edited by: maddmaxx III on 14/11/2008 16:31:36 Edited by: maddmaxx III on 14/11/2008 16:31:05
Originally by: El Yatta Definitely not signed.
Large missile ability vs small ships is now similar to that of large turrets, and has been INCREASED vs larger targets.
If you think missiles aren't balanced then you need to accept that the review of weapons, tracking and combat pre-QR was UNFINISHED and that they all need a looksee, including inter-race and intra-class balance (e.g. torp raven vs blaster thron).
If you think turrets are fine, then missiles are too.
If you think that missiles are unbalanced because of anything to do with missions or NPCs, you are wrong, because PVE is not relevant to balance.
Ok, the sooner you people get this through your head the better, its not about large missiles vs small ships, its about heavy, cruise, and torps, doing accurate damage to BC's and bigger. Got it now? its been stated many times, wake the **** up. And no combat utility vs large targets has not been improved.
Way to completely miss the point I was making about turret vs missile balance. And yes, vs larger targets has been MASSIVELY improved. Hint: rages were useless. Now they're not. _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces |
Ignition SemperFi
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2008.11.14 19:20:00 -
[328]
Part of a nerf against missiles hitting small stuff was needed.
Thats not a problem, when a BS w/o an AB or MWD can slowboat and greatly reduce damage to a t1 torp. Let alone even larger reduction if that BS fits 1 AB.
Missiles for the most part have been a large laughing stock of the PVP world. Finally the torp raven was given its boost when they changed torps around. Then they decide to gimp explosion velocity greatly so with this patch and now unless they are idiots and stay at 0m/s there is a large amount of DMG reduction done against the same size hull your engaging in.
Guess my shield tank now has to be gimped even farther to now accomodate MWD, 2x Web, 1x TP (web nerf), and point. Out of 6 mid slots that leaves you 1 for tank.
TP drones hardly do enough to make a difference. I would use webbing drones except for the lul 75m3 drone bay. Only worse BS drone bay being the 50m3 of the rokh... and its blaster purpose is lulz... and now its only a Sniper ship(though its main role)
Looking at it from a standpoint that EVERYONE fits MWD's is wrong. Granted it might be that way in a 0.0 world, but in a lowsec/highsec PVP environment fits can change.
Well back to armor tanking gunnery. Missile shield ship fail again thank you ccp. and screw pve... you can use a domi just as easy as raven. And the raven works almost as well... it just takes a few min more to finish the missions. ------ People Say Im paranoid because I have a gun, I say I dont have to be paranoid because I have a gun.
Garmon - "I LOK ON TO ROMULAN WARBIRD AND GO POW POW POW" |
Borell
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Posted - 2008.11.14 19:31:00 -
[329]
/signed
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X0CIN
K.T.P
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Posted - 2008.11.14 19:49:00 -
[330]
Edited by: X0CIN on 14/11/2008 19:55:10 What ****es me off here is all the turret users telling the missile users to stop whining before even considering what turrets are capable off and what missiles weren't even before the patch.
Caldari ships always have had better tanking abilities than other races for 2 reasons 1) because its quicker to get to the tanked part of the ship i.e the sheild. 2) because missiles although were good at consistant damage always have do lower damage than other ships. e.g. sniping tempest can do 2000+ dmg when fit correctly. sniping apoc can do 1200+ dmg when fit correctly with tach 2's the dmg is lower but the rof is higher than tempest. Gallante do massive dmg with blasters at close range which torpedos can now never match and would have to sacrifice tanking ability to fit a web and painter but a blasterthon wouldn't.
in the time i have been playing caldari have had many big nerfs
1)splash dmg removed 2)ability to use cruise missiles in seige launchers 3)missiles were completely reworked in cold war july 2005 which introduced a massive nerf which required the training of several new skills to accomodate the sig radius/flight time/velocity/rof changes. 4)Torps given a massive reduction in range. 5)Now another complete rework causing them to become the worst race in game and the training of more skills for modules which when fitted ruin the ships tanking ability.
why was it needed ?
Its argued that the speed nerf would have given missiles users an advantage however it actually gave all races an advantage because no matter what you fire with, its easier to hit/dmg a slower moving target.
But webbers got nerfed ?
So this doesn't affect missiles then ?
so instead of balancing missiles the devs completely reworked them so caldari pilots do 60-70% of the dmg they did before and thats providing the target sits still. when all they had to do is rebalance the current formula by making sure missiles were doing the same dmg after the patch.
|
|
Gael Itrus
|
Posted - 2008.11.14 21:18:00 -
[331]
2/3rds of your players have been made useless by this.
Signed. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2008.11.14 21:31:00 -
[332]
Vigaz, you really are an idiot, I'm afraid. |
Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
|
Posted - 2008.11.14 23:42:00 -
[333]
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 14/11/2008 21:42:19 Sigh. You can lead a horse to water...
But you can't make it drink garbage. |
El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
|
Posted - 2008.11.15 00:01:00 -
[334]
Originally by: X0CIN Edited by: X0CIN on 14/11/2008 19:55:10 What ****es me off here is all the turret users telling the missile users to stop whining before even considering what turrets are capable off and what missiles weren't even before the patch.
Caldari ships always have had better tanking abilities than other races for 2 reasons 1) because its quicker to get to the tanked part of the ship i.e the sheild. 2) because missiles although were good at consistant damage always have do lower damage than other ships. e.g. sniping tempest can do 2000+ dmg when fit correctly. sniping apoc can do 1200+ dmg when fit correctly with tach 2's the dmg is lower but the rof is higher than tempest. Gallante do massive dmg with blasters at close range which torpedos can now never match and would have to sacrifice tanking ability to fit a web and painter but a blasterthon wouldn't.
in the time i have been playing caldari have had many big nerfs
1)splash dmg removed 2)ability to use cruise missiles in seige launchers 3)missiles were completely reworked in cold war july 2005 which introduced a massive nerf which required the training of several new skills to accomodate the sig radius/flight time/velocity/rof changes. 4)Torps given a massive reduction in range. 5)Now another complete rework causing them to become the worst race in game and the training of more skills for modules which when fitted ruin the ships tanking ability.
why was it needed ?
Its argued that the speed nerf would have given missiles users an advantage however it actually gave all races an advantage because no matter what you fire with, its easier to hit/dmg a slower moving target.
But webbers got nerfed ?
So this doesn't affect missiles then ?
so instead of balancing missiles the devs completely reworked them so caldari pilots do 60-70% of the dmg they did before and thats providing the target sits still. when all they had to do is rebalance the current formula by making sure missiles were doing the same dmg after the patch.
This is drivel. Utter drivel.
You make utter spurious claims (e.g. blasterthron doesn't need webs, or that torps cant match blaster damage (hint, they can do MORE now following the rage boost, at still FOUR TIMES the range).
Then you selectively edit history to try and claim that missiles have been repeatedly nerfed - and leave out all the immense boosts they got along the way as well:
1) The fact that missiles got special T2 ammo to murder small stuff, and had their velocities and range massively improved by the first rebalance. 2) The ridiculously overpowered nature of Javelin torps when they were introduced 3) The introduction of HAMs 4) The insanely long range of Javelin HAMs when they were first introduced 5) The torp ROF buff giving them near-blaster damage at SIX TIMES the range. 6) The rage missile buff in Quantum Rise
If you put that together with your list of nerfs and guess what, they've had dozens of balance changes over the years in both directions.
You can whine away about the last changes, but its not in the slightest bit relevant. You need to adapt, because everyone else, particularly Blaster and AC pilots, is doing the same. We all lobbied for a better balance than what went live, in the weeks and months before. Some changes were made, many not.
Now we live with what we've got, and there's absolutely no reason why the perfectly reasonable missile changes wouldnt stay if everything else does.
|
RedLion
State Constructions
|
Posted - 2008.11.15 00:06:00 -
[335]
support |
Korovyov
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.11.15 00:09:00 -
[336]
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 14/11/2008 21:42:19 Sigh. You can lead a horse to water...
But you can't make it drink garbage.
...with salty sea mans floating in it. |
Captain Narmio
Baptism oF Fire
|
Posted - 2008.11.15 01:16:00 -
[337]
Wait, missiles no longer completely miss or utterly fail to damage the majority of competent PVP setups out there...
...And you adaptation-impaired gumps are complaining because you lose a few percent of that magical EFT DPS number against most targets?
It's like giving a child a gigantic icecream and him complaining it's not chocolate-coated. With a cherry on top.
Grow. Up.
|
Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
|
Posted - 2008.11.15 02:03:00 -
[338]
Originally by: Captain Narmio Wait, missiles no longer completely miss or utterly fail to damage the majority of competent PVP setups out there...
...And you adaptation-impaired gumps are complaining because you lose a few percent of that magical EFT DPS number against most targets?
It's like giving a child a gigantic icecream and him complaining it's not chocolate-coated. With a cherry on top.
Grow. Up.
Hahaha. Ignorant troll is ignorant. Missiles weren't that good beforehand. DPS sucked, no instant damage, shield tanked ships. Now they're even more useless.
|
powers sellers
|
Posted - 2008.11.15 02:32:00 -
[339]
sur, the nerf is too strange for the caldari.
Raven with cruise VS angel BS have more DPS that Raven torp vs angel BS.
It's very strange.
Caldary is the bad race in Pvp, if it's the bad race in Pve, what are we going to do ?
Signed |
IronGoldenEagle
Destroyers Of the Freeworld THORN Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.11.15 03:04:00 -
[340]
/signed
I was against nano nerf and dont pve or rat so I'm pretty unbiased. Raven is dead, Cerb is pretty crappy as a HAC now. I still got my rokh I guess.
|
|
IwantYOUinME
|
Posted - 2008.11.15 03:11:00 -
[341]
Edited by: IwantYOUinME on 15/11/2008 03:16:31 Edited by: IwantYOUinME on 15/11/2008 03:11:47
Originally by: El Yatta This is drivel. Utter drivel.
You make utter spurious claims (e.g. blasterthron doesn't need webs, or that torps cant match blaster damage (hint, they can do MORE now following the rage boost, at still FOUR TIMES the range).
Then you selectively edit history to try and claim that missiles have been repeatedly nerfed - and leave out all the immense boosts they got along the way as well:
1) The fact that missiles got special T2 ammo to murder small stuff, and had their velocities and range massively improved by the first rebalance. 2) The ridiculously overpowered nature of Javelin torps when they were introduced 3) The introduction of HAMs 4) The insanely long range of Javelin HAMs when they were first introduced 5) The torp ROF buff giving them near-blaster damage at SIX TIMES the range. 6) The rage missile buff in Quantum Rise
If you put that together with your list of nerfs and guess what, they've had dozens of balance changes over the years in both directions.
You can whine away about the last changes, but its not in the slightest bit relevant. You need to adapt, because everyone else, particularly Blaster and AC pilots, is doing the same. We all lobbied for a better balance than what went live, in the weeks and months before. Some changes were made, many not.
Now we live with what we've got, and there's absolutely no reason why the perfectly reasonable missile changes wouldnt stay if everything else does.
Why does everyone always say "Torps got boosted" after Quantum rise? It only got a 6.67% increase in damage, in exchange for increasing the explosion radius from 540m to 650m. Thats over 15%, not exactly scaled with the damage increase isnt it? This means you now do less damage with a standard rage torp boat fitting because the damage given per m of sig radius is decreased.
Now, to the losers who say "Fit a painter!" are utterly clueless - one always fits a painter on a Rage torp boat, but now after QR you need 2 painters for most battleship hull sigs to match your torps explosion radius. Please bear in mind that Torpedoes do not benefit from Crash boosters, missile precision skill or the radius reduction rigs. Also, this is not taking into account the fact that your Battleship targets can easily AB, or just naturally, speedtank your torps for a significant reduction in damage. This thus necessitates the use of at least a single web.
Torps have NOT been boosted in any way. If you call increasing the damage by a measly 6.67% a "boost" whilst disregarding the unproportional increase in explosion radius then you suck. Now after Quantum Rise, if you stick with the same Rage Torp setups, you will do less damage. "Adapt!" is what people say, but it's somewhat difficult to fit 2 painters and 2 webbers on shield tanking ships.
Yes, this isn't a solo game but I shouldn't need support ships or so many support modules to use T2 high damage ammo against ships of the same class - bs vs bs. I don't see megathrons needing as many support modules to utilise T2 high damage ammo effectively against battleship targets.
EDIT: By accident, I posted with my alt, my main is UrsaeMajoris, in case any of you were going to try that argument-dismissing-"post with your main" crap. |
KTOZ
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.11.15 03:24:00 -
[342]
Edited by: KTOZ on 15/11/2008 03:25:31
Originally by: El Yatta
This is drivel. Utter drivel.
You make utter spurious claims (e.g. blasterthron doesn't need webs, or that torps cant match blaster damage (hint, they can do MORE now following the rage boost, at still FOUR TIMES the range).
Then you selectively edit history to try and claim that missiles have been repeatedly nerfed - and leave out all the immense boosts they got along the way as well:
1) The fact that missiles got special T2 ammo to murder small stuff, and had their velocities and range massively improved by the first rebalance. 2) The ridiculously overpowered nature of Javelin torps when they were introduced 3) The introduction of HAMs 4) The insanely long range of Javelin HAMs when they were first introduced 5) The torp ROF buff giving them near-blaster damage at SIX TIMES the range. 6) The rage missile buff in Quantum Rise
If you put that together with your list of nerfs and guess what, they've had dozens of balance changes over the years in both directions.
You can whine away about the last changes, but its not in the slightest bit relevant. You need to adapt, because everyone else, particularly Blaster and AC pilots, is doing the same. We all lobbied for a better balance than what went live, in the weeks and months before. Some changes were made, many not.
Now we live with what we've got, and there's absolutely no reason why the perfectly reasonable missile changes wouldnt stay if everything else does.
You did actually flyed and tested caldari missile boats before and after the patch with proper skills, and claiming all those points or just making estimations with what you are hearing around?
i personnaly see the obvious difference by flying those ships before and after the patch and seriously when u say "murdering small stuff" or " overpowered nature " etc. its like we are playing different games and talkin about different things... Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Ignition SemperFi
Private Nuisance
|
Posted - 2008.11.15 04:33:00 -
[343]
Originally by: IwantYOUinME Edited by: IwantYOUinME on 15/11/2008 03:23:13 Why does everyone always say "Torps got boosted" after Quantum rise? It only got a 6.67% increase over the old damage, in exchange for increasing the explosion radius from 540m to 650m. Thats over 15%, not exactly scaled with the damage increase isnt it? This means you now do less damage with a standard rage torp boat fitting because the damage given per m of sig radius is decreased.
Now, to the losers who say "Fit a painter!" are utterly clueless - one always fitted a painter on a Rage torp boat, but now post-QR you need 2 painters for most battleship hull sigs to match your torps explosion radius. Please note, painters do get a stacking penalty on your target. Please bear in mind that Torpedoes do not benefit from Crash boosters, missile precision skill or the radius reduction rigs. Also, this is not taking into account the fact that your Battleship targets can easily AB, or just naturally, speedtank your torps for a significant reduction in damage. This thus necessitates the use of dual webs (to be fair though, one should makedo with one).
Torps have NOT been boosted in any way. If you call increasing the damage by a measly 6.67% a "boost" whilst disregarding the unproportional increase in explosion radius then you suck. So post-QR, if you stick with the same Rage Torp setups, you will do less damage. "Adapt!" is what people say, but it's somewhat difficult to fit 2 painters and 2 webbers on shield tanking ships.
Yes, this isn't a solo game but I shouldn't need support ships or so many support modules to use T2 high damage ammo against ships of the same class - bs vs bs. I don't see megathrons needing as many support modules to utilise T2 high damage ammo effectively against battleship targets.
EDIT: By accident, I posted with my alt, my main is UrsaeMajoris, in case any of you were going to try that argument-dismissing-"post with your main" crap.
This TBFH /thread
To all those EFT warriors who dont fly the ships and just saw a damage % increase... then try to state that torps got a boost.
And testing the supposed torp boost. take a raven w/ t2 torp launcher: fire 1 t1 EM torp at a BS not moving w/ no mods, then fire 1 t1 rage torp at a BS. Let alone the BS moving w/ out a AB. Hell now w/ the same revelant lvl 4 specialization skill do the same with a 1 cruise launcher. Do the t1 cruise then do the t1 fury. After that compare the t1 torp to the t1 cruise the t1 cruise to the t2 torp and vice versa. Then start moving the BS again.
The results are eye opening
|
X0CIN
Caldari K.T.P
|
Posted - 2008.11.15 08:34:00 -
[344]
Originally by: El Yatta
Originally by: X0CIN Edited by: X0CIN on 14/11/2008 19:55:10 What ****es me off here is all the turret users telling the missile users to stop whining before even considering what turrets are capable off and what missiles weren't even before the patch.
Caldari ships always have had better tanking abilities than other races for 2 reasons 1) because its quicker to get to the tanked part of the ship i.e the sheild. 2) because missiles although were good at consistant damage always have do lower damage than other ships. e.g. sniping tempest can do 2000+ dmg when fit correctly. sniping apoc can do 1200+ dmg when fit correctly with tach 2's the dmg is lower but the rof is higher than tempest. Gallante do massive dmg with blasters at close range which torpedos can now never match and would have to sacrifice tanking ability to fit a web and painter but a blasterthon wouldn't.
in the time i have been playing caldari have had many big nerfs
1)splash dmg removed 2)ability to use cruise missiles in seige launchers 3)missiles were completely reworked in cold war july 2005 which introduced a massive nerf which required the training of several new skills to accomodate the sig radius/flight time/velocity/rof changes. 4)Torps given a massive reduction in range. 5)Now another complete rework causing them to become the worst race in game and the training of more skills for modules which when fitted ruin the ships tanking ability.
why was it needed ?
Its argued that the speed nerf would have given missiles users an advantage however it actually gave all races an advantage because no matter what you fire with, its easier to hit/dmg a slower moving target.
But webbers got nerfed ?
So this doesn't affect missiles then ?
so instead of balancing missiles the devs completely reworked them so caldari pilots do 60-70% of the dmg they did before and thats providing the target sits still. when all they had to do is rebalance the current formula by making sure missiles were doing the same dmg after the patch.
This is drivel. Utter drivel.
You make utter spurious claims (e.g. blasterthron doesn't need webs, or that torps cant match blaster damage (hint, they can do MORE now following the rage boost, at still FOUR TIMES the range).
Then you selectively edit history to try and claim that missiles have been repeatedly nerfed - and leave out all the immense boosts they got along the way as well:
1) The fact that missiles got special T2 ammo to murder small stuff, and had their velocities and range massively improved by the first rebalance. 2) The ridiculously overpowered nature of Javelin torps when they were introduced 3) The introduction of HAMs 4) The insanely long range of Javelin HAMs when they were first introduced 5) The torp ROF buff giving them near-blaster damage at SIX TIMES the range. 6) The rage missile buff in Quantum Rise
If you put that together with your list of nerfs and guess what, they've had dozens of balance changes over the years in both directions.
You can whine away about the last changes, but its not in the slightest bit relevant. You need to adapt, because everyone else, particularly Blaster and AC pilots, is doing the same. We all lobbied for a better balance than what went live, in the weeks and months before. Some changes were made, many not.
Now we live with what we've got, and there's absolutely no reason why the perfectly reasonable missile changes wouldnt stay if everything else does.
firstly its not drivel
I pointed out that the different ways missiles have been nerfed over the years.
I pointed out caldari ship now have a lesser tank due to the nerf.
I pointed out that missiles do a lesser max damage than any other weapon type.
At no point have i said the blaster boat nerf was reasonable. So stay in your own thread.
|
Krenhnell
|
Posted - 2008.11.15 09:13:00 -
[345]
/signed
|
Superwam
|
Posted - 2008.11.15 10:48:00 -
[346]
/signed |
don Albator
|
Posted - 2008.11.15 10:49:00 -
[347]
/signed
|
Mrs Cassandra
|
Posted - 2008.11.15 11:03:00 -
[348]
/signed
|
mauke87
|
Posted - 2008.11.15 11:03:00 -
[349]
/Signed
|
Caribou92
|
Posted - 2008.11.15 11:03:00 -
[350]
/signed
|
|
DRAZHOR HAWKS
|
Posted - 2008.11.15 11:05:00 -
[351]
/Signed
|
Ryukku
|
Posted - 2008.11.15 11:12:00 -
[352]
/Signed |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2008.11.15 11:57:00 -
[353]
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien
Originally by: Captain Narmio Wait, missiles no longer completely miss or utterly fail to damage the majority of competent PVP setups out there...
...And you adaptation-impaired gumps are complaining because you lose a few percent of that magical EFT DPS number against most targets?
It's like giving a child a gigantic icecream and him complaining it's not chocolate-coated. With a cherry on top.
Grow. Up.
Hahaha. Ignorant troll is ignorant. Missiles weren't that good beforehand. DPS sucked, no instant damage, shield tanked ships. Now they're even more useless.
Dearie dearie me, get a clue. Missiles were fine - except from the speed cliff. Good DPS, excellent force projection, shield tanked ships with full room for damage mods.
Now the speed cliff has been removed and all you do is whine cluelessly because you don't do full damage to an mythical ABing cruiser.
Khemal, you've been on Sisi, you've tested the Cerberus. You've seen that it's now able to kill any interceptor, or drive away any fast cruiser. How are you coming to such absurd conclusions?
|
Vigaz
|
Posted - 2008.11.15 12:14:00 -
[354]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien
Originally by: Captain Narmio Wait, missiles no longer completely miss or utterly fail to damage the majority of competent PVP setups out there...
...And you adaptation-impaired gumps are complaining because you lose a few percent of that magical EFT DPS number against most targets?
It's like giving a child a gigantic icecream and him complaining it's not chocolate-coated. With a cherry on top.
Grow. Up.
Hahaha. Ignorant troll is ignorant. Missiles weren't that good beforehand. DPS sucked, no instant damage, shield tanked ships. Now they're even more useless.
Dearie dearie me, get a clue. Missiles were fine - except from the speed cliff. Good DPS, excellent force projection, shield tanked ships with full room for damage mods.
Now the speed cliff has been removed and all you do is whine cluelessly because you don't do full damage to an mythical ABing cruiser.
Khemal, you've been on Sisi, you've tested the Cerberus. You've seen that it's now able to kill any interceptor, or drive away any fast cruiser. How are you coming to such absurd conclusions?
I don't know him but I've been on Sisi, I don't think you can kill anything using only a cerberus. You need support to scram / web / TP / etc. I'm telling that pre QR, Caldari ships needed less support (less meds of your gang) to reach 100% dmg. It's a fact. Pre QR a Cerb with support of only 1 WEB was able to do full dmg to every ship in game. With only one Module.4 Now you need much more meds to achieve 100% dmg. Do not be surprise if ppl is not happy with this patch.
|
Nicara
|
Posted - 2008.11.15 12:16:00 -
[355]
Well this Missle nerf has pretty much gutted an account I have worked on for months. When a Manticore can barely dent the shields of an Assault ship I have to say I may as well just cancel that account and start over( sorry but that will not happen I will waste my time elsewhere ). This Nerf has made my Caldari Pilot somewhat of a joke as now I need to go and spend weeks, probably months training skills to compensate. In a war dec I as pretty much now a permanant Ew boat or repper. From a sales standpoint aweseome job you just created a program that if I want to enjoy my character I need to pay you more money to train up just to get back to where I was before the nerf
Time is money, this nerf has ruined 8 months of patience and gameplay, seriously considering just going to another RPG that rewards players for loyalty, not waste it. This was NOT a well tested change in my opinion and I have played many RPG on line , the good ones actively for 7 years now adn none have ever made me feel like i may as well just cancel the account because of a game patch or upgrade.
I have played another RPG from its birth and when a MAJOR change like this occours at least they allow you to "'respec" you character so that situations like thes never occour, and hey they have gotten my money for 6 years to play. Is that not the purpose for the game creators, it is a business afterall Well sorry long winded, but I am so disapointed this may very well be my last post and I cancel my account and look elsewehre Good luck all adn fly safe!!
|
Agustino
The Independant Navy Association Phoenix Rising Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.11.15 12:40:00 -
[356]
Signed!
|
marie claude
|
Posted - 2008.11.15 13:33:00 -
[357]
yeah 8 months wasted |
Materia Hunter
|
Posted - 2008.11.15 17:11:00 -
[358]
Originally by: IwantYOUinME Edited by: IwantYOUinME on 15/11/2008 03:23:13
Originally by: El Yatta This is drivel. Utter drivel.
You make utter spurious claims (e.g. blasterthron doesn't need webs, or that torps cant match blaster damage (hint, they can do MORE now following the rage boost, at still FOUR TIMES the range).
Then you selectively edit history to try and claim that missiles have been repeatedly nerfed - and leave out all the immense boosts they got along the way as well:
1) The fact that missiles got special T2 ammo to murder small stuff, and had their velocities and range massively improved by the first rebalance. 2) The ridiculously overpowered nature of Javelin torps when they were introduced 3) The introduction of HAMs 4) The insanely long range of Javelin HAMs when they were first introduced 5) The torp ROF buff giving them near-blaster damage at SIX TIMES the range. 6) The rage missile buff in Quantum Rise
If you put that together with your list of nerfs and guess what, they've had dozens of balance changes over the years in both directions.
You can whine away about the last changes, but its not in the slightest bit relevant. You need to adapt, because everyone else, particularly Blaster and AC pilots, is doing the same. We all lobbied for a better balance than what went live, in the weeks and months before. Some changes were made, many not.
Now we live with what we've got, and there's absolutely no reason why the perfectly reasonable missile changes wouldnt stay if everything else does.
Why does everyone always say "Torps got boosted" after Quantum rise? It only got a 6.67% increase over the old damage, in exchange for increasing the explosion radius from 540m to 650m. Thats over 15%, not exactly scaled with the damage increase isnt it? This means you now do less damage with a standard rage torp boat fitting because the damage given per m of sig radius is decreased.
Now, to the losers who say "Fit a painter!" are utterly clueless - one always fitted a painter on a Rage torp boat, but now post-QR you need 2 painters for most battleship hull sigs to match your torps explosion radius. Please note, painters do get a stacking penalty on your target. Please bear in mind that Torpedoes do not benefit from Crash boosters, missile precision skill or the radius reduction rigs. Also, this is not taking into account the fact that your Battleship targets can easily AB, or just naturally, speedtank your torps for a significant reduction in damage. This thus necessitates the use of dual webs (to be fair though, one should makedo with one).
Torps have NOT been boosted in any way. If you call increasing the damage by a measly 6.67% a "boost" whilst disregarding the unproportional increase in explosion radius then you suck. So post-QR, if you stick with the same Rage Torp setups, you will do less damage. "Adapt!" is what people say, but it's somewhat difficult to fit 2 painters and 2 webbers on shield tanking ships.
Yes, this isn't a solo game but I shouldn't need support ships or so many support modules to use T2 high damage ammo against ships of the same class - bs vs bs. I don't see megathrons needing as many support modules to utilise T2 high damage ammo effectively against battleship targets.
EDIT: By accident, I posted with my alt, my main is UrsaeMajoris, in case any of you were going to try that argument-dismissing-"post with your main" crap.
Better than I could have said it. Thank you sir
|
InfamousOne
Chaos Coalition Chaotic Evolution
|
Posted - 2008.11.15 21:36:00 -
[359]
tbqh, I can understand the frustration of training missile skills and then having the system change quite a bit... I have over 9mil in missiles alone and I will continue to use/train them, I suppose I will have to rethink how I play, but I am always up for a challenge, maybe this patch/nerf will make T2 missiles more widely used, before QR I didn't really see a reason to use T2 ammo, but now T2 cruise can hit ceptors, not a lot of dmg, but it's funny none the less.
As for having the patch taken back, we all know it won't happen, CCP is considering trivial additions (any else read the thread on instruments...wtf?) However, maybe CCP should consider revising the systems for all weapon types, actually didn't have a problem with the missiles pre QR or with them now, to each his own I suppose. |
Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute
|
Posted - 2008.11.16 00:46:00 -
[360]
So you want the nano balance but don't want the missile balance? Did you play Sisi during the time this was active? Missiles were insanely overpowered. Ask anyone who played, there are massive threads about it.
All I see are a bunch of whiners who were expecting to get an overpowered iwin button.
Unless you want to reverse all changes, then I'm all for that. |
|
Mikhale Romanov
Black Hats Delta
|
Posted - 2008.11.16 01:21:00 -
[361]
Edited by: Mikhale Romanov on 16/11/2008 01:22:18 I use torpedoes (T2) on a regular basis.. its not that bad just get one or two of the newly boosted AF's to Tack for you and problem solved. I run 1 painter on my raven or widow (widow usually uses cruises) and one on my alt's ship and the problem is solved. It was a bummer at first but whatever.. do have to say I am having fun finally training turrets tho.=) On the topic of the OP saying that they need to roll back or whatever.. sorry not from this missile user.. IMO They do need to RETHINK the velocity and exp radius to make torpedoes more effective WITHOUT 2painters/webs (id be happy with 1 paint 1 web) VS equal or greater size ships.
Edit: Cold hands horrible spelling ZOMG Communism! |
El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.11.16 03:59:00 -
[362]
Originally by: KTOZ Edited by: KTOZ on 15/11/2008 03:25:31
Originally by: El Yatta
This is drivel. Utter drivel.
You make utter spurious claims (e.g. blasterthron doesn't need webs, or that torps cant match blaster damage (hint, they can do MORE now following the rage boost, at still FOUR TIMES the range).
Then you selectively edit history to try and claim that missiles have been repeatedly nerfed - and leave out all the immense boosts they got along the way as well:
1) The fact that missiles got special T2 ammo to murder small stuff, and had their velocities and range massively improved by the first rebalance. 2) The ridiculously overpowered nature of Javelin torps when they were introduced 3) The introduction of HAMs 4) The insanely long range of Javelin HAMs when they were first introduced 5) The torp ROF buff giving them near-blaster damage at SIX TIMES the range. 6) The rage missile buff in Quantum Rise
If you put that together with your list of nerfs and guess what, they've had dozens of balance changes over the years in both directions.
You can whine away about the last changes, but its not in the slightest bit relevant. You need to adapt, because everyone else, particularly Blaster and AC pilots, is doing the same. We all lobbied for a better balance than what went live, in the weeks and months before. Some changes were made, many not.
Now we live with what we've got, and there's absolutely no reason why the perfectly reasonable missile changes wouldnt stay if everything else does.
You did actually flyed and tested caldari missile boats before and after the patch with proper skills, and claiming all those points or just making estimations with what you are hearing around?
i personnaly see the obvious difference by flying those ships before and after the patch and seriously when u say "murdering small stuff" or " overpowered nature " etc. its like we are playing different games and talkin about different things...
Of course I've tested it, I have top-end missile and gunnery skills.
You totally missed the point ofc, most of those changes were in the last FOUR YEARS - not Quantum Rise. Try reading the acutal post.
Whoever whined abotu rages - you confound your own errors by repeatedly saying "with the same setup" - newsflash - you need to CHANGE YOUR SETUPS. EVeryone else has had to do the same with the patch. The fact is that your max DPs has gone UP, again. You can whine "its EFT DPS, its theoretical!!" but that is true of ALL weapons - considering how frequently people need to fight in falloff, or get out-tracked. you actually need to put EFFORT into acheiving that DPS, not just train skills to 5 then press F1-F8, and now that's true for missiles too.
So what? Get used to it, thats how the game should be.
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Arikanaiz
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Posted - 2008.11.16 04:32:00 -
[363]
I AM THE OP
1.) Yes I agree that missiles should have been hit to limit the amount of damage done to smaller targets. 2.) Yes, every weapon has different tactical advantages and disadvantages. 3.) No one told any of us which race to pick or how to train our characters, your choices were your own, missile or turret. 4.) Each race has specific strengths and weaknesses, you chose it yourself at the begining of the game. 5.) NOT EVERYONE USES RAGE MISSILES- The nerf in general is a negative effect for all missile users, Caldari, or Minmatar. 6.) Blasters have a higher ROF, missiles have a longer range, Blaster have a higher ammo capacity, missiles do more damage per round, blah blah blah. It makes no difference when you compair them they're different for a reason. In general NOW, if you want to compair, 9/10 times, missiles fall short of thier counter parts. 7.) I fly caldari, minmatar, and gallente ships, YES I know what I'm talking about.
I will be posting formulas later in the evening. |
IwantYOUinME
|
Posted - 2008.11.16 08:10:00 -
[364]
Originally by: El Yatta Of course I've tested it, I have top-end missile and gunnery skills.
You totally missed the point ofc, most of those changes were in the last FOUR YEARS - not Quantum Rise. Try reading the acutal post.
Whoever whined abotu rages - you confound your own errors by repeatedly saying "with the same setup" - newsflash - you need to CHANGE YOUR SETUPS. EVeryone else has had to do the same with the patch. The fact is that your max DPs has gone UP, again. You can whine "its EFT DPS, its theoretical!!" but that is true of ALL weapons - considering how frequently people need to fight in falloff, or get out-tracked. you actually need to put EFFORT into acheiving that DPS, not just train skills to 5 then press F1-F8, and now that's true for missiles too.
So what? Get used to it, thats how the game should be.
Newsflash, you missed the point of my argument - yes rage torp users DO obviously have to adapt just like every other battleship pilot but what I'm arguing about (and this is the point you missed out on) is that Rage Torp users need a LOT more support/support modules to adapt/compensate for the changes introduced in QR than other races' battleship counterparts for BS vs BS fights. "Your max dps has gone up..." again that is only a 6.67% more DPS than the old Pre-QR damage which is nothing to brag about when youre getting an explosion radius increase of 110m (over 15%).
Do other T2 high damage ammo-using battleships have to equip 4 EWAR modules to be able to do full damage (or at least more damage than T1 or faction ammo to make Rage ammo even worth using/training for) against other battleships? Dual webs required to prevent them from speedtanking the ridiculously small explosion radius of torps and dual painters to bring the signature radius up to Rage Torpedoes' awfully large explosion radius.
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Stalina
Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad
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Posted - 2008.11.16 09:56:00 -
[365]
Originally by: Arikanaiz I AM THE OP 1-4 ) rabblerabble 5.) NOT EVERYONE USES RAGE MISSILES- The nerf in general is a negative effect for all missile users, Caldari, or Minmatar.
You forgot amarr, yet only ones complaining are the missionrunning caldari carebears.
Originally by: Arikanaiz
6.) Blasters have a higher ROF, missiles have a longer range, Blaster have a higher ammo capacity, missiles do more damage per round, blah blah blah. It makes no difference when you compair them they're different for a reason. In general NOW, if you want to compair, 9/10 times, missiles fall short of thier counter parts.
You are stupid because you just think about your missiles. You should actually sit in something like a vaga or interceptor, attack a drake or cerberus and see how much the missiles hurt, even when orbiting with 4.5k/sec. It is not only unfair for caldari to be the only ones hitting the newly nerfed speed ships ( as you did before the patch ), but you want to do even more damage to them? While other races dont hit them at all ??? You should come out of your missionhub and should look how missiles actually hurt all the smaller ships. You should stop collecting numbers outgame and actually get in the game, play the other races and see how much missiles hurt now.
Originally by: Arikanaiz 7.) I fly caldari, minmatar, and gallente ships, YES I know what I'm talking about.
No, you dont. You seem to not have a clue about other races ships at all. ________________
Originally by: Malcanis
Hey I've got an idea: why don't you and your nerf-crying ilk never, ever post again.
See what you've done. Look what you did.
Now shush.
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Daylight Dancer
Caldari Asteroid Civil Rights Union
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Posted - 2008.11.16 10:08:00 -
[366]
Originally by: Stalina You should come out of your missionhub and should look how missiles actually hurt all the smaller ships.
Might be quite hard to get into one since he has -7.2 sec standing
in any case /signed |
Stalina
Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad
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Posted - 2008.11.16 10:20:00 -
[367]
Edited by: Stalina on 16/11/2008 10:20:32
Originally by: Daylight Dancer
Originally by: Stalina You should come out of your missionhub and should look how missiles actually hurt all the smaller ships.
Might be quite hard to get into one since he has -7.2 sec standing in any case /signed
I guess you can do missions even in lowsec. ________________
Originally by: Malcanis
Hey I've got an idea: why don't you and your nerf-crying ilk never, ever post again.
See what you've done. Look what you did.
Now shush.
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El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.11.16 16:28:00 -
[368]
Edited by: El Yatta on 16/11/2008 16:30:56
Originally by: IwantYOUinME
Newsflash, you missed the point of my argument - yes rage torp users DO obviously have to adapt just like every other battleship pilot but what I'm arguing about (and this is the point you missed out on) is that Rage Torp users need a LOT more support/support modules to adapt/compensate for the changes introduced in QR than other races' battleship counterparts for BS vs BS fights. "Your max dps has gone up..." again that is only a 6.67% more DPS than the old Pre-QR damage which is nothing to brag about when youre getting an explosion radius increase of 110m (over 15%).
Do other T2 high damage ammo-using battleships have to equip 4 EWAR modules to be able to do full damage (or at least more damage than T1 or faction ammo to make Rage ammo even worth using/training for) against other battleships? Dual webs required to prevent them from speedtanking the ridiculously small explosion radius of torps and dual painters to bring the signature radius up to Rage Torpedoes' awfully large explosion radius.
Only 6.67%? Thats a huge damage increase, considering that Void, Conflag and to a lesser extent hail didn't get the same love,and are still useless compared to Faction AM/MF/EMP.
You dont seem to understand Rages at all - its a bonus ammo, for use WHEN you can - e.g. instead of whining you desperately need two painters, why not CHOOSE rage when you're fighting one of the bigger BS - tier 3, marauders, for which you only need one painter.
As for "needing two webs" - this is only true versus afterburner BS. How many of those do you really think we';ll see on TQ? Precious few, and yes, you should be worse against those, because they're chosen to lose their ability to get through a bubble/back to a gate/in range just to speed tank your torps.
1 60% web vs any other BS either MWD or slowboating will allow rages to hit for full damage. Due to the new formula, MWDing with high sig elimintes your damage loss due to speed as its now based on a ratio of Speed:Sig.
So you only need ONE web and one painter for faction torps, one web and two painters for Rage, on most BS targets. Some may require just 1 and 1. Its hardly a difficult thing to acheive, especially with the absolute rarity of BS 1v1s.
As for the other T2 high-damage ammo - it depends on the ship, beause different turrets perform differently at that range. Certainly with blasters you need at LEAST a dual web, if not triple, to get Void better than T1 AM, let alone faction, because crippling your range and tracking isnt so difficult. But even though you need 3 mods on a blaster ship to hit max on Void, and you need 3 mods on a torp ship to hit max with Rage, I dont think its fair to compare because nobody uses Void, and it didnt get the luxury of being improved like Rages did.
You keep on ranting about how you have it so difficult, but the fact is you got benefits with your nerfs, too. Where you lost out was on easy-mode: just firing and forgetting. Now you need to be a bit cleverer, like a turret pilot, in where you put your ship and locking down your opponent. This is how it should be.
At the end of the day, what is this thread about? I hear lots of ranting, but the actual OP says something along the lines of "revert this nerf" - ie. just go back to the stats from pre-patch. Could that POSSIBLY be serious? I mean, missiles would be so insanely overpowered in QR without these changes _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces |
night shiftstar
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Posted - 2008.11.16 16:45:00 -
[369]
well, im galentte, I dont agree with the nerfing of any caind, in fact i consider that other things should b created to contradict a overpowering issue, like it appends in nature:
"fox its to fast for rabbit! Natures reply: ups, lets nerf is legs..."
Owever, ive tryed T1 standard missiles in Enyo Gallente AF, and i found out, even with out any weapon upg fitted in low slot, thing that all caldari ship can easely do due to any tanking restrictions,the damage dealt by this low skilled gun (less than 1 M sp) was at least as effective than my highly skilled (9 M sp) T2 rail or Light T2 (5M sp).
In fact i know people that can passive tanking trough any |v|3 mission in caldari BC, that is impracticable with any gallente BC. In fact, gallente drone bay ships have theyr drone bays nerfed, and now with QR, medium drones tracking as well. Drone skill training for a gallentian was mandatory to complement tower gunns tracking and range issues.
So, its bad but fare if missiles and explosion velocity its nerfed, i have same problems with rails against smaller ships and i have to use webers. So, if and wen i use missiles, (that can select damage type, by the way) ll b using webers... and drones. Every caldari use drones wen mining, so use the overpowered raven and drake drone bays to use some weber drones, do some active tanking and put web in middles as well instead of whining about. Every time someone complains about something, all of us get nerfed...
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Rin Ji
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Posted - 2008.11.16 20:43:00 -
[370]
A change to the QR missile change has my (Amarrian!) support. That change was, while needed in a certain way, over the top. Simple as that.
Up the explosion velocity again by 100 to 300% from current values and we should be OK and be able to adapt enough without feeling being completely hit by the big bad nerf st...*errmhh*...hammer. Don't feel like argueing more about it here as well, we do that enough at the moment IG.
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sky jumper
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Posted - 2008.11.16 22:48:00 -
[371]
SIGNED CCP has put down missiles so much that are now useles in PVP. They did umbalancing the game.
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Marconus Orion
Amarr Astroglide X
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Posted - 2008.11.16 22:51:00 -
[372]
Missile changes are fine. Because of the speed changes on all ships in the game, if they were left unbalanced then it would be Caldari "I Win Button" more than what it is.
Get over it.
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KTOZ
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.11.16 23:23:00 -
[373]
Originally by: Marconus Orion Missile changes are fine. Because of the speed changes on all ships in the game, if they were left unbalanced then it would be Caldari "I Win Button" more than what it is.
Get over it.
Plz tell me that you are caldari and made a few tests already after the patch and surprise me!!
Why ppl talk about things that they dont have a clue??
CCP : plz take take 2 sama skilled char and test (raven for a start with 2 of the fallowings-> point/web/speed mod ) vs other race bs's.. then lover the other race chars sp and make the same test again. You will notice that the result wont change!! We are unable to kill anything who is smart enough to move around abit.. Our dmg become worthless.. |
Marconus Orion
Amarr Astroglide X
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Posted - 2008.11.17 00:27:00 -
[374]
Originally by: KTOZ
Originally by: Marconus Orion Missile changes are fine. Because of the speed changes on all ships in the game, if they were left unbalanced then it would be Caldari "I Win Button" more than what it is.
Get over it.
Plz tell me that you are caldari and made a few tests already after the patch and surprise me!!
Why ppl talk about things that they dont have a clue??
CCP : plz take take 2 sama skilled char and test (raven for a start with 2 of the fallowings-> point/web/speed mod ) vs other race bs's.. then lover the other race chars sp and make the same test again. You will notice that the result wont change!! We are unable to kill anything who is smart enough to move around abit.. Our dmg become worthless..
So.
/me points to the gunnery skill tree
Right click and train. |
Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.11.17 00:36:00 -
[375]
Originally by: Marconus Orion
Originally by: KTOZ
Originally by: Marconus Orion Missile changes are fine. Because of the speed changes on all ships in the game, if they were left unbalanced then it would be Caldari "I Win Button" more than what it is.
Get over it.
Plz tell me that you are caldari and made a few tests already after the patch and surprise me!!
Why ppl talk about things that they dont have a clue??
CCP : plz take take 2 sama skilled char and test (raven for a start with 2 of the fallowings-> point/web/speed mod ) vs other race bs's.. then lover the other race chars sp and make the same test again. You will notice that the result wont change!! We are unable to kill anything who is smart enough to move around abit.. Our dmg become worthless..
So.
/me points to the gunnery skill tree
Right click and train.
That's not adapting. Our missiles sucked before, they suck harder now, and we want them to suck just a bit less. |
Drake Draconis
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2008.11.17 00:38:00 -
[376]
Originally by: Marconus Orion
Originally by: KTOZ
Originally by: Marconus Orion Missile changes are fine. Because of the speed changes on all ships in the game, if they were left unbalanced then it would be Caldari "I Win Button" more than what it is.
Get over it.
Plz tell me that you are caldari and made a few tests already after the patch and surprise me!!
Why ppl talk about things that they dont have a clue??
CCP : plz take take 2 sama skilled char and test (raven for a start with 2 of the fallowings-> point/web/speed mod ) vs other race bs's.. then lover the other race chars sp and make the same test again. You will notice that the result wont change!! We are unable to kill anything who is smart enough to move around abit.. Our dmg become worthless..
So.
/me points to the gunnery skill tree
Right click and train.
That won't work.... you have to have rationality to understand such things.
^_^
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Odessima
The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.11.17 01:46:00 -
[377]
Edited by: Odessima on 17/11/2008 01:53:11 My major problem with the whole missile adjustment and the way that has been handled is the fact that, most of the Other races normally are fitting a web in a midslot and 9/10 wont be comprimising their tank, Caldari Ships to me are suppossed to be damage and tank ships because, we really dont have the same versatility in fittings for midslots as most webs and target painters happen to fit in midslots, where as armour tankers have their tank in low slots. Sure I would happily fit a low slot target painter or web, and happily take out a damage mod. Missiles have never been a I win button in PVP, and a battleship isnt exactly a fast target and really is bigger than the barn door, so why shouldnt another battleship be able to hit for full damage at a stand still, whether it is caldari, minnie, gallente or amarr. I dont think it should go back to what it was, but some adjustment is neccessary. |
evePreD
Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2008.11.17 02:13:00 -
[378]
Edited by: evePreD on 17/11/2008 02:19:25
Originally by: El Yatta
So you only need ONE web and one painter for faction torps, one web and two painters for Rage, on most BS targets. Some may require just 1 and 1. Its hardly a difficult thing to acheive, especially with the absolute rarity of BS 1v1s.
Oh only ? For PVP i ONLY need a :
Scramble/Disrupt AB/MWD Web Painter (Painter)
Thats ony 4-5 med slots, on a shield tanking ship with 6 med slot !
I got 2 uber med slot left for tank \o/
Is that a joke ?
If CCP don't wanna change a bit (i did'nt say remove) the current nerf to missile, change the tank of caldari ship : makes them armor tank.
Gime caldari ship with a layout (more low slot, less med slot) that allow armor tank, and i'll stopped complaining
A raven with, 4 med, 7 low would be fair.
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Odessima
Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.11.17 02:31:00 -
[379]
Originally by: evePreD Edited by: evePreD on 17/11/2008 02:19:25
Originally by: El Yatta
So you only need ONE web and one painter for faction torps, one web and two painters for Rage, on most BS targets. Some may require just 1 and 1. Its hardly a difficult thing to acheive, especially with the absolute rarity of BS 1v1s.
Oh only ? For PVP i ONLY need a :
Scramble/Disrupt AB/MWD Web Painter (Painter)
Thats ony 4-5 med slots, on a shield tanking ship with 6 med slot !
I got 2 uber med slot left for tank \o/
Is that a joke ?
If CCP don't wanna change a bit (i did'nt say remove) the current nerf to missile, change the tank of caldari ship : makes them armor tank.
Gime caldari ship with a layout (more low slot, less med slot) that allow armor tank, and i'll stopped complaining
A raven with, 4 med, 7 low would be fair.
or low slot equivelants of webber scram painters, actually wait would it be easier just to add an extra mid slot. |
Bat Baian
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Posted - 2008.11.17 10:18:00 -
[380]
One extra mid slot for all caldari missile boats
AMEN!
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KTOZ
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.11.17 12:18:00 -
[381]
Originally by: Odessima
Originally by: evePreD Edited by: evePreD on 17/11/2008 02:19:25
Originally by: El Yatta
So you only need ONE web and one painter for faction torps, one web and two painters for Rage, on most BS targets. Some may require just 1 and 1. Its hardly a difficult thing to acheive, especially with the absolute rarity of BS 1v1s.
Oh only ? For PVP i ONLY need a :
Scramble/Disrupt AB/MWD Web Painter (Painter)
Thats ony 4-5 med slots, on a shield tanking ship with 6 med slot !
I got 2 uber med slot left for tank \o/
Is that a joke ?
or low slot equivelants of webber scram painters, actually wait would it be easier just to add an extra mid slot.
Both statements are correct for me. If you dont do anything about the missile nerf at least give us the possibility to web, scram, paint and have a speed without sacrifying to much tank like the other races can do without sacrifying anything...
Or just fix the missile nerf and leave us as we were before but at least do something.. It s obviously to much
And plz if you have nothing to do in this topic but say "yes missiles are ok as they are now, all caldari pilots should train gunnery...", then plz go to make another topic and expose your arguements but stop spamming this one with **** for a clear readability of the problems exposed... Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
|
Posted - 2008.11.17 13:34:00 -
[382]
Without sacrificing anything? Are you stupid?
They sacrifice their 3 damage mods that all medium and large caldari missile boats can fit without any issues whatsoever!
Thats one of the fundamental differences between shield tankign and armor tanking boats.
There actually exists armor-tanking missile boats in the game, if you want to tackle+tank+missile then you need a Typhoon, a Sacrelidge, a Vengeance, a Damnation etc.
If you want to shield tank missile boats, if you want to 3bcugank+missile+tank then you need to pick Raven/Cerb/Drake/NH, and leave out the tackle.
Everyone whined they couldnt fit tackle+shield tank before, but accepted it and worked in gangs. Now you need more support mods and you whine that you cant fit them all...
Solo is dead. Im sorry its like this, because it sucks for other races too, (and indeed MORE), but if you want to solo in a LARGE ship, that train has sailed.
If you are in a gang, webs and painters help everyone. _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces |
Ignition SemperFi
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2008.11.17 14:09:00 -
[383]
From a BS on BS perspective-
Most armor tankers get 7 lowslots w/ 4 midslots Where as Most shield tankers get 6 mids w/ 5 lows
Caldari have - rokh, raven, scorp scorp being an ECM support boat that is paper thin. the rokh (4 missile slots, so not really affected) unless your running a interesting rokh missile boat.
So you have the raven basically.
Almost everyone agrees to BS PVP you need 3 mandatory mods - 1 point, 1 mwd/ab 1 web, and 1 web. With web nerfs you almost need the 2nd web... but thats not mandatory. With missile PVP you have two choices either sit right at your missiles max length and keep a high transversal to stay out of gunners range. Or get right at 0m so their guns track horribly and your inside their optimal.
Raven layout - teir 2 - 5 lows 6 mids 8 highs, 6 missile slots Domi - teir 1 - 7 lows 5 mids 6 highs, 6 turret Mega - teir 2 - 7 lows 4 mids 8 highs, 7 turret slots Hype - teir 3 - 6 lows 5 mids 8 highs, 8 turret slots Armaggedon - teir 1 - 8 lows 3 mids 8 highs, 7 turret slots Apoc - teir 2 - 7 lows 4 mids 8 highs, 8 turret slots Abaddon - teir 3 - 7 lows 5 mids 8 highs, 8 turret slots Typhoon - teir 1 - 7 lows 4 mids 8 highs, 4 turret slots 4 missile slots Tempest - teir 1 - 6 lows 5 mids 8 Highs, 6 turret slots Maelstrom - teir 3 - 5 lows 6 mids 8 highs, 8 turret slots
In respects to Short Range Guns and Long Range, in respects to CPU and Grid usage. Blasters:Torps - Blasters are more grid intensive and less CPU, and on the flip side Torps require alot more CPU while less grid Lasers:Torps - Lasers are even more grid hoggers than blasters, and require even less CPU Autos:Torps - Autos take the least amount of CPU, and are inbetween blasters and lasers for grid reqs
Armor tankers w/ 4 mid slots (only 1 w/ 3 mids is the geddon) - 1 point, 1 web, 1 propulsion, 1 extra(cap booster, eccm, tracking comp, sensor boost) The geddon's 1 less midpoint is made up for in 1 more low slot. The tempest and hype each only have 6 low slots, and the hype has an 7.5% armor rep per gallente BS to overcome the 1 less low. Armor tanks require more powergrid while they are less CPU intensive. That is the exact opposite for shield tanking, while not powergrid intensive at all, they are CPU hogs. Majority of active tankers use that 4 and even sometimes 5 midslot for cap boosters to extend tank and gun shooting.
TANKS w GANKS!:
Armor Tank: ->Passive - 2 EANM II's, DC II, 2 1600rt plates. You then can tack on 3x trimarks or 2x trimarks and 1x anti-explo pump for the Rigs ->Active(varies a bit more) - DC II, 2 EANM II's, 2 Large Armor Rep II's. You can then tack 2x aux nano pump, 1x nanobot accel for the rigs. *Armor reps take 400 cap over 15 seconds for repairing 800 armor hp (not counting any skills, bonuses, or rigs)
Shield tank: Passive - 2 LSE II's, 2 invuln II's, 1 DC II(low slot). Then tack 1x anti-em screen and 2x core def field extenders or do 3x core def field extenders. Active - Xlarge Shield Booster(best named because of CPU needs usually), 1 Invuln II, and 1 photon field II. Then tack on 1x Core Defe Operation Solidifier, and 2x Core Def Cap safeguards for rigs. * X-large II rep takes 400 cap over 5 seconds for repairing 600 shield HP (not counting any skills, bonuses, or rigs)
Shield Active: OK try to fit an active tank, even w/ a best named xlrg shield boost, with torps on a raven. Lol you need one of the following: 1. AWU 4, 1 RCU I, and 1 PDU II 2. AWU 4 and RCU II w/ a 3% grid implant 3. AWU 5 and a RCU II w/ 1% grid implant
... and oh thats just to fit the grid. Your going to need a lowslot for a CPU mod too, unless you can afford the 5% cpu mod w/ energy grid lvl 5
2 fitting mods and an implant is a gimped setup, let alone 3 fitting mods; so next we look at active tank w/ cruises on raven.
------ People Say Im paranoid because I have a gun, I say I dont have to be paranoid because I have a gun.
Garmon - "I LOK ON TO ROMULAN WARBIRD AND GO POW POW POW" |
Ignition SemperFi
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2008.11.17 14:10:00 -
[384]
(part 2)
Active tank raven w/ Cruises: (of note if you try to active armor tank a raven. Your going to be fitting heavy or heavy assualt missiles due to lack of grid, let alone cpu... lolz at best)
So the only active tank raven is a shield tank (it can vary a bit):
1. 1x x-large shield booster(cpu is too tight for t2), 2x invuln II's, 1x Heavy Cap Booster II, 1 100mn MWD II, 1 warp disrupt II. Tack on the rigs 1x Core def operation solidify, 2x core def cap sa***aurd. 2. 1x x-large shield booster(cpu is too tight for t2), 2x invuln II's, 1x Heavy Cap Booster II, 1 100mn MWD II, 1 warp disrupt II. Tack on the rigs 1x Core def operation solidify, 1x core def cap sa***aurd, 1x anti-em screen. 3. 1x x-large shield booster(cpu is too tight for t2), 1x invuln II's, 1x photon field II, 1x Heavy Cap Booster II, 1 100mn MWD II, 1 warp disrupt II. Tack on the rigs 1x Core def operation solidify, 2x core def cap sa***aurd. 3. 1x x-large shield booster(cpu is too tight for t2), 1x invuln II's, 1x photon field II, 1x Heavy Cap Booster II, 1 100mn MWD II, 1 warp disrupt II. Tack on the rigs 1x Core def operation solidify, 1x core def cap sa***aurd, 1x anti-therm screen.
W/ all the above setups you can either do:
1. 2 BC II's, 2 PDS II's, and 1 DC II. 2. 3 PDS II's, 1 DC II, 1 BC II. 3. 3 BC's, 1 PDS II's, and best named DC (or dc II and a 1% cpu implant)
Passive Tanks:
Armor:
As stated before passive tanks require 5 slots: 1x DC II, 2x EANM II's, 2 1600rt. Then 2x trimarks and 1 anti-explo or 3 trimarks. The abaddon differs here as it can legitametly get away with 1x EANM II because of its 5% armor resists to amarr BS lvl bonus.
Technically the raven can armor passive tank, but unlike all the other armor tankers it will do so w/o a dmg mod. Then if you want to fit the Close Range Hi-dmg weapon of torps, you will have to sacrafice 1 rig for an ACR, then 2 trimarks, or 1 trimark and 1 anti-explo rig. So for a full armor passive tank, w/ rigs, your reduced to cruises.
Shield:
Here is about the only place the raven shines any by shines I mean not as much of a turd as the rest of the setups.
Few choices, both encompassing around 2 LSE II's, 2 Invuln II's, and 1 DC II. 1 anti-em and 2 core def extend rigs or 3 core def extend rigs. 1. 1 DC II, 3 PDS II's, 1 BC II - around 700 dps w/ 5x medium II drones, and cal navy ammo 2. 1 DC II, 1 PDS II, 3 BC II's - around 900 dps w/ 5x medium II drones, and cal navy ammo.
Both of these still only allow the raven 2 midslots for PVP setup. So you can choose between point, web, painter, propulsion mod. Pick any two... in reality now that QR hit you have to "adapt" so now you dont even get to do full DMG unless the idiot sits still(even then unless their sig is larger than torps explosion velocity (skills dont modify this due to it being an unguided missile)... some of the dmg is dissapated. Since almost every one, to include the n00bs is going to be moving during PVP... whether to escape, mitigate dmg, or chase after someone else. The fact remains that you are reduced to propulsion mod and point... so no web, no target painter.
Ok what about web drones and target painting drones... ah in my 75m3 drone bay! YES!
3 heavy web drones or 5 medium painter drones... Either way by fitting those im loosing over 150 dps, just to try to regain my torps DPS back.
---------------
In closing, this patch has me adapting... im going back to using guns, as the few missile ships that are out there for BS have to be flow gimped. I could fly an armor tanked raven, passive or active. But neither of them are using torps(unless you use an ACR for the passive. Or you use heavy/HAM missiles for the active armor tank.. hahaaaa).
The passive shield tanked raven is the only other setup that allows me to fly around w/ torps and pew pew. But I have to fit a MWD due to not having a slot for a web. And even then i still dont have a slot for a painter or a web. ------ People Say Im paranoid because I have a gun, I say I dont have to be paranoid because I have a gun.
Garmon - "I LOK ON TO ROMULAN WARBIRD AND GO POW POW POW" |
Ignition SemperFi
Private Nuisance
|
Posted - 2008.11.17 14:15:00 -
[385]
-TLDR version-
Raven layout - teir 2 - 5 lows 6 mids 8 highs, 6 missile slots Domi - teir 1 - 7 lows 5 mids 6 highs, 6 turret Mega - teir 2 - 7 lows 4 mids 8 highs, 7 turret slots Hype - teir 3 - 6 lows 5 mids 8 highs, 8 turret slots Armaggedon - teir 1 - 8 lows 3 mids 8 highs, 7 turret slots Apoc - teir 2 - 7 lows 4 mids 8 highs, 8 turret slots Abaddon - teir 3 - 7 lows 5 mids 8 highs, 8 turret slots Typhoon - teir 1 - 7 lows 4 mids 8 highs, 4 turret slots 4 missile slots Tempest - teir 1 - 6 lows 5 mids 8 Highs, 6 turret slots Maelstrom - teir 3 - 5 lows 6 mids 8 highs, 8 turret slots
Armor tank setups for BS that can equip them 2 Bs have 5 lows 2 Bs have 6 lows 5 BS have 7 lows 1 Bs has 8 lows
Majority of BS that armor tank still have room for at least 1 DMG mod if not two.
Missile/Shield tankers have some setups that allow for torps and multiple BC II's but it requires only a passive shield tank. And still no slot for web or painter.
Like said before. The adapt and overcome is that solo pvp for BS's is coming to a hault, one nerf at a time.
I for one welcome my turret overlords ------ People Say Im paranoid because I have a gun, I say I dont have to be paranoid because I have a gun.
Garmon - "I LOK ON TO ROMULAN WARBIRD AND GO POW POW POW" |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2008.11.17 15:50:00 -
[386]
Raven in not being solo BS shocker.
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KTOZ
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.11.17 17:06:00 -
[387]
Originally by: El Yatta Without sacrificing anything? Are you stupid?
They sacrifice their 3 damage mods that all medium and large caldari missile boats can fit without any issues whatsoever!
Thats one of the fundamental differences between shield tankign and armor tanking boats.
There actually exists armor-tanking missile boats in the game, if you want to tackle+tank+missile then you need a Typhoon, a Sacrelidge, a Vengeance, a Damnation etc.
If you want to shield tank missile boats, if you want to 3bcugank+missile+tank then you need to pick Raven/Cerb/Drake/NH, and leave out the tackle.
Everyone whined they couldnt fit tackle+shield tank before, but accepted it and worked in gangs. Now you need more support mods and you whine that you cant fit them all...
Solo is dead. Im sorry its like this, because it sucks for other races too, (and indeed MORE), but if you want to solo in a LARGE ship, that train has sailed.
If you are in a gang, webs and painters help everyone.
Hey smart ass lets see what you have added to our knowledge else then i m stupid? jhmm nothing..
I m playing this game for around 5 years and knows what to do with caldari ships as i m ony caldari trained.. but you still didnt understand the issue here.. i was saying what about ppl who are only caldari trained?
By your exemple you ssy, if you want to fit a point web mwd etc you need to cross train..
Well the whole fckn point of this topic is why caldari cant be self sufficient? why we have to cross train NOW not 3 years ago or 2 when i was maxing my skills to fly caldari ships effectively? why if you train only gallente or amar or minmatar you survive but with caldari you cant do nothing on your own? ... those were the questions and you enlightened us by saying there s other missile boats then caldari and they r using armor so use them.. woooow
And solo is not dead at all, many ppl still loving and doing it maybe you dont but it doesnt make it dead.. you can easily solo with minmatar before and after the patch. you can solo in amar, in gallente ( even i heurd some ppl whining about.. ) but : *when you cant fit a point your target can flee, when you cant
*when you cant web them your cruise missiles do 24 dmg (with all missile skills at 5 and spec 4) to an heavy assault who DONT have ab or mwd on.. He laugh at you and continues to kill you slowly while arbiting you again without anyspeed module..
*when you cant approach him coz you are slow, you cant web him or even point, so you need a speed mod.
*with the nerf you need a painter to make more then 20 ish dmg
So if Your answear to all those questions is "use Typhoon, a Sacrelidge, a Vengeance, a Damnation etc. " you simply say train something else then caldari.. well thats the whole point here Mr Einstein...
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Odessima
Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.11.17 17:44:00 -
[388]
Originally by: El Yatta Without sacrificing anything? Are you stupid?
They sacrifice their 3 damage mods that all medium and large caldari missile boats can fit without any issues whatsoever!
Thats one of the fundamental differences between shield tankign and armor tanking boats.
There actually exists armor-tanking missile boats in the game, if you want to tackle+tank+missile then you need a Typhoon, a Sacrelidge, a Vengeance, a Damnation etc.
If you want to shield tank missile boats, if you want to 3bcugank+missile+tank then you need to pick Raven/Cerb/Drake/NH, and leave out the tackle.
Everyone whined they couldnt fit tackle+shield tank before, but accepted it and worked in gangs. Now you need more support mods and you whine that you cant fit them all...
Solo is dead. Im sorry its like this, because it sucks for other races too, (and indeed MORE), but if you want to solo in a LARGE ship, that train has sailed.
If you are in a gang, webs and painters help everyone.
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El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2008.11.17 18:10:00 -
[389]
Originally by: KTOZ
Hey smart ass lets see what you have added to our knowledge else then i m stupid? jhmm nothing..
I m playing this game for around 5 years and knows what to do with caldari ships as i m ony caldari trained.. but you still didnt understand the issue here.. i was saying what about ppl who are only caldari trained?
By your exemple you ssy, if you want to fit a point web mwd etc you need to cross train..
Well the whole fckn point of this topic is why caldari cant be self sufficient? why we have to cross train NOW not 3 years ago or 2 when i was maxing my skills to fly caldari ships effectively? why if you train only gallente or amar or minmatar you survive but with caldari you cant do nothing on your own? ... those were the questions and you enlightened us by saying there s other missile boats then caldari and they r using armor so use them.. woooow
And solo is not dead at all, many ppl still loving and doing it maybe you dont but it doesnt make it dead.. you can easily solo with minmatar before and after the patch. you can solo in amar, in gallente ( even i heurd some ppl whining about.. ) but : *when you cant fit a point your target can flee, when you cant
*when you cant web them your cruise missiles do 24 dmg (with all missile skills at 5 and spec 4) to an heavy assault who DONT have ab or mwd on.. He laugh at you and continues to kill you slowly while arbiting you again without anyspeed module..
*when you cant approach him coz you are slow, you cant web him or even point, so you need a speed mod.
*with the nerf you need a painter to make more then 20 ish dmg
So if Your answear to all those questions is "use Typhoon, a Sacrelidge, a Vengeance, a Damnation etc. " you simply say train something else then caldari.. well thats the whole point here Mr Einstein...
EDIT : Originally by: El Yatta Without sacrificing anything?
They sacrifice their 3 damage mods that all medium and large caldari missile boats can fit without any issues whatsoever!
Thats one of the fundamental differences between shield tankign and armor tanking boats.
Well so gallente bs's and tempest's abbadon's have dmg bonuses if i remember well, Maelstrom has shield boost bonus and abbadon shield resist+ dmg, that makes you think about missing dmg mods or tank mods on low slots??
No. You're doing it wrong. When I say "if you want tackle+missile choose typhoon or sacrelidge" I do NOT mean "caldari suck but its balacned cos you can cross train". That would not be right -all races should have value in their own right.
When I say "use sacrlidge if you want this" it means if you had wanted the versatility of tackle and tank then you should have chosen early to do x. If you choose Y, you need to play like Y are good at - in this case, caldari in a gang.Its not "Y sucks, train x", its if you want to play like X, train X, dont choose Y then try to play it like X, then moan like a whiny ***** when it sucks.
Caldari have never been good at solo on their big missile boats. You can argue away, but the truth is that ALL solo got a big nerf, and might as well be dead. You are wrong if you think missiles aren't balanced because of a difficulty of soloing on CERTAIN boats on ONE race. Why cant they be "self-sufficient"? Well why should they? All races are different. I needn't remind you that you have turret boats and fast boats as well.
Your last point is nonsense -all missile boats have ROF or damage bonuses or both. _______________________________________________ Mercenary Forces |
KTOZ
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.11.17 18:44:00 -
[390]
Edited by: KTOZ on 17/11/2008 18:48:17
Originally by: El Yatta
No. You're doing it wrong. When I say "if you want tackle+missile choose typhoon or sacrelidge" I do NOT mean "caldari suck but its balacned cos you can cross train". That would not be right -all races should have value in their own right.
When I say "use sacrlidge if you want this" it means if you had wanted the versatility of tackle and tank then you should have chosen early to do x. If you choose Y, you need to play like Y are good at - in this case, caldari in a gang.Its not "Y sucks, train x", its if you want to play like X, train X, dont choose Y then try to play it like X, then moan like a whiny ***** when it sucks.
Caldari have never been good at solo on their big missile boats. You can argue away, but the truth is that ALL solo got a big nerf, and might as well be dead. You are wrong if you think missiles aren't balanced because of a difficulty of soloing on CERTAIN boats on ONE race. Why cant they be "self-sufficient"? Well why should they? All races are different. I needn't remind you that you have turret boats and fast boats as well.
Your last point is nonsense -all missile boats have ROF or damage bonuses or both.
Yes i m clearly saying i want to fit a scrambler and web and tank and dmg, which is my right as all of the other races lol.
"if you had wanted the versatility of tackle and tank then you should have chosen early to do x." When i choosed caldari, you could hang around in a torp raven with only 1 scram and no other rubishness, and have a proper pvp kill ships or any size or lose your ship to another ship who s doing the same thing as you..
so i choosed the x many years ago. maxed the skills and then x become Z and later today it become y that you are talkin about. so these skills and sp's are wasted today is that clear?
If not read Odessima's post right above you cant not understand mine...
Quote : "Why cant they be "self-sufficient"? Well why should they? All races are different."
Are you serious?? how long you have been in this game to decide what role caldari have? or to decide what role it should have?? I tell you it was possible to have a proper pvp around in a bs or bc whatever you want with only 1 scram + web and shield tank.. It wasnt wrote on caldari ships like :" if you wanna fly this you will need some other support ships to scram web and paint, if you dont have that sit in a station.." that is new.. atleast the fact it got worst is new...
Every race in this game can and should be able to be self sufficient which means scram web tank and dmg ( not beeing the best on everything but do everything), tanking and making dmg while able to scram is not a race specific fact, it s duable for 3/4 of the races in the game, and it was like this for the 4th one as well but now not anymore so stop saying that caldari cant fly alone or shouldnt scram web and tank or shoudnt do better dmg and dont try to fix it some roles from your mind.
drakes, nh's, raven's, cerbs were self sufficient ships, NH, drakes and cerbs were/maybe still are able to make somethings on their own as they have resist bonus's they can fit scram or speed mod's but the dmg become crap for them this time..
/Me stops here argueing with you, you have everything infront of your eyes to understand if you want to understand.. but if you dont it s not becoz you are right, missiles are perfect as they are and not underpowered at all, or caldari should not scram, web or use speed and tank at same time, it s one or another for them (wtf?? )..
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
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Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
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Posted - 2008.11.17 21:05:00 -
[391]
Originally by: KTOZ Edited by: KTOZ on 17/11/2008 18:48:17
Originally by: El Yatta
No. You're doing it wrong. When I say "if you want tackle+missile choose typhoon or sacrelidge" I do NOT mean "caldari suck but its balacned cos you can cross train". That would not be right -all races should have value in their own right.
When I say "use sacrlidge if you want this" it means if you had wanted the versatility of tackle and tank then you should have chosen early to do x. If you choose Y, you need to play like Y are good at - in this case, caldari in a gang.Its not "Y sucks, train x", its if you want to play like X, train X, dont choose Y then try to play it like X, then moan like a whiny ***** when it sucks.
Caldari have never been good at solo on their big missile boats. You can argue away, but the truth is that ALL solo got a big nerf, and might as well be dead. You are wrong if you think missiles aren't balanced because of a difficulty of soloing on CERTAIN boats on ONE race. Why cant they be "self-sufficient"? Well why should they? All races are different. I needn't remind you that you have turret boats and fast boats as well.
Your last point is nonsense -all missile boats have ROF or damage bonuses or both.
Yes i m clearly saying i want to fit a scrambler and web and tank and dmg, which is my right as all of the other races lol.
"if you had wanted the versatility of tackle and tank then you should have chosen early to do x." When i choosed caldari, you could hang around in a torp raven with only 1 scram and no other rubishness, and have a proper pvp kill ships or any size or lose your ship to another ship who s doing the same thing as you..
so i choosed the x many years ago. maxed the skills and then x become Z and later today it become y that you are talkin about. so these skills and sp's are wasted today is that clear?
If not read Odessima's post right above you cant not understand mine...
Quote : "Why cant they be "self-sufficient"? Well why should they? All races are different."
Are you serious?? how long you have been in this game to decide what role caldari have? or to decide what role it should have?? I tell you it was possible to have a proper pvp around in a bs or bc whatever you want with only 1 scram + web and shield tank.. It wasnt wrote on caldari ships like :" if you wanna fly this you will need some other support ships to scram web and paint, if you dont have that sit in a station.." that is new.. atleast the fact it got worst is new...
Every race in this game can and should be able to be self sufficient which means scram web tank and dmg ( not beeing the best on everything but do everything), tanking and making dmg while able to scram is not a race specific fact, it s duable for 3/4 of the races in the game, and it was like this for the 4th one as well but now not anymore so stop saying that caldari cant fly alone or shouldnt scram web and tank or shoudnt do better dmg and dont try to fix it some roles from your mind.
drakes, nh's, raven's, cerbs were self sufficient ships, NH, drakes and cerbs were/maybe still are able to make somethings on their own as they have resist bonus's they can fit scram or speed mod's but the dmg become crap for them this time..
/Me stops here argueing with you, you have everything infront of your eyes to understand if you want to understand.. but if you dont it s not becoz you are right, missiles are perfect as they are and not underpowered at all, or caldari should not scram, web or use speed and tank at same time, it s one or another for them (wtf?? )..
Never thought I'd say this to a tri but, /thread |
Roman legionnaire's
AssHat Hq
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Posted - 2008.11.18 07:47:00 -
[392]
signed
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7Genius
Gallente Damage Distribution Incorporated Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2008.11.18 14:35:00 -
[393]
BEST NERF EVER!!! |
Murina
The Scope
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Posted - 2008.11.18 16:17:00 -
[394]
Edited by: Murina on 18/11/2008 16:20:04
Originally by: Odessima
Still has 1100DPS and the same tank as my Raven (930DPS) with torps, still tackles fine, can fit a sensor booster which my raven cant without changing my tank, did I mention thats with 2 damage mods in that mega fit compared to 3 in my raven for more dps.
Ok here is the thing bud a MEGA may have 1100dps on EFT but the truth is you will never get 1100 dps in eve and not only that but the actual sweet spot for that DPS is minute compared to the 30km ish? range of torps. Not only that but there is plenty of ships in eve that cannot solo well the raven is just one of them.......
Missiles may get a reduction in dmg due to speed and sig but then gunships get a reduction of dps depending massively on range and transversal speed. |
ZAUBl
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Posted - 2008.11.19 01:57:00 -
[395]
Signed
nerf missels against small targets like a frig/cruser is ok but bs speed tank torp or cruise what a joke....
ccp have to change this u have to hit a bs for the full damage.
for my part i will look what ccp do after long long train for a golem for nothing since qr
if ccp dont care about our view they seems to dont need my money |
Odessima
Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.11.19 12:31:00 -
[396]
Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 18/11/2008 16:20:04
Originally by: Odessima
Still has 1100DPS and the same tank as my Raven (930DPS) with torps, still tackles fine, can fit a sensor booster which my raven cant without changing my tank, did I mention thats with 2 damage mods in that mega fit compared to 3 in my raven for more dps.
Ok here is the thing bud a MEGA may have 1100dps on EFT but the truth is you will never get 1100 dps in eve and not only that but the actual sweet spot for that DPS is minute compared to the 30km ish? range of torps. Not only that but there is plenty of ships in eve that cannot solo well the raven is just one of them.......
Missiles may get a reduction in dmg due to speed and sig but then gunships get a reduction of dps depending massively on range and transversal speed.
So heres the thing, it may be according to EFT but INGAME there is no MAJOR CHANGE as tested on my Gallente Character ie just so you get it! Not a butt load of difference, compared to my Caldari Character which is noticably less than what it was, which was less than my Gallente Character in the first place before the patch....is that clear enough or do I have to draw you a picture. Im not talking about EFT comparisons, im talking ingame.
Basically although I have T2 Siege missiles Trained I may as well use faction or standard torps because there is now no real benefit of Using rage at all, and precision....yeah right
I am not talking about soloing a raven, I have never bothered to try soloing a raven for a long long time....
Does Void ammo need looking at use it does, but this thread isnt about Void ammo
Thats a thought maybe I can bribe someone with a picture of a spider.
And quite frankly I am not your BUD, I am well aware of the ingame capabilities of both ships as I fly both types on different Characters and my Caldari pilot is better specced than my Gallente one for those specific ships. And it isnt just Torpedoes that are suffering from problems either, but I am not directly comparing them atm to my other characters |
Aquestria
Intergalactic Peace Organization Free Trade Zone.
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Posted - 2008.11.19 13:58:00 -
[397]
signed..
this is a stupid nerf, everyone know's that missile boats are used by mission runners not pvp'ers.
the only thing this nerf has done is to annoy mission runners just for the sake of creating a nerf.
there's a saying "DONT FIX WHAT ISNT BROKE"
Maybe CCP should remember this when tweeking with things and consentrate on fixing existing bugs rather than nerfing stuff all day long. |
Odessima
Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2008.11.19 17:33:00 -
[398]
Edited by: Odessima on 19/11/2008 17:33:05
Originally by: Aquestria signed..
this is a stupid nerf, everyone know's that missile boats are used by mission runners not pvp'ers.
the only thing this nerf has done is to annoy mission runners just for the sake of creating a nerf.
there's a saying "DONT FIX WHAT ISNT BROKE"
Maybe CCP should remember this when tweeking with things and consentrate on fixing existing bugs rather than nerfing stuff all day long.
Im sorry but I PVP in missile ships all the time, and they should be beter than they were and are for PVP, and shouldnt just be looked at by the masses as PVE ships |
Ignition SemperFi
Private Nuisance
|
Posted - 2008.11.20 06:45:00 -
[399]
Edited by: Ignition SemperFi on 20/11/2008 06:48:20 the fact alone that a majority of eve consider missiles to be for PVE purposes only, detracts to the basic idea that they(missiles) aren't sufficent enough to PVP in. That alone would raise most concerns with the fact that an entire weapon system is gimped against others. This being before QR... and now after the patch, with missiles being worse, your justification is that missiles are for PVE only.
Sadly i believe this was not so much an aim at missile nerf, as it was a stealth reliance on bringing target painters back as a legit form of acceptable EWAR, just as RSD and ECM.
Honestly I dont have a problem with it the nerf AS MUCH, had they come out and stated that. But for god sake, BS vs BS warfare shouldnt require something to increase the sig of a 1m/s BS just so it can hit for full dmg, let alone if that BS is moving full speed without ANY propulsion mods. Just as guns are different from missiles, sometimes they get their excellent blows, sometimes they get glancing blows. Where as missiles have a cliff, before the cliff you can ONLY do max dmg w/ multiple painters or a 0m/s BS, after the cliff they do exactly 0dmg. But this discussion shouldnt delve back into missiles vs guns. The fact these arguments exsisted BEFORE this missile nerf, they still are the same exact arguements after.
Earlier i already showed how the shield tanking BS's that are a 6mid 5low layout are PVP gimped in most instances requiring 3 pvp mods(1.ab/mwd 2. point 3. painter/web) but only having 2 slots in which to pull it off.
Where as the majority of BS's are armor tankers, which are also a majority of gun ships, that are a 7 low 4 mid setup, which allows for the 3 pvp mods plus 1 extra slot (cap, eccm, second web, sensor booster, second cap booster)
Both the 6/5 shield Bs's and the 4/7 armor tank Bs's in most instances can do their tank w/ 2 dmg mods sometimes only 1.
The problem is if you give the raven that 7 mid, you seriously give it a chance of an amazing tank beyond almost every other BS in the game, including the teir 3's, if it wasnt given a PVP focus, or didnt have to worry about fitting the needed PVP mods due to a support fleet. That would create an imbalance.
Thats the basic problem at hand - CCP wants you to use a support fleet for PVPing, maybe even for PVE. Coincidence that this lines up with a new power of 2 advert?... Just after receiving the harsh backlash of retired/canceled accounts due to ghost training gankage. Solo BS pvp is a dying art, let alone other solo work except for a small portion of ships they havent nerfed yet.
I cant wait till t3 BS's come out, I want a 1 highslot BS, called the "nerf bat" - The dmg output of this ship well surpasses any other ship in this game
------ People Say Im paranoid because I have a gun, I say I dont have to be paranoid because I have a gun.
Garmon - "I LOK ON TO ROMULAN WARBIRD AND GO POW POW POW" |
Another Forum'Alt
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Posted - 2008.11.20 12:38:00 -
[400]
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Beepus
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Posted - 2008.11.20 14:49:00 -
[401]
Edited by: Beepus on 20/11/2008 14:58:37 SIGNED
ive played this game for a while now. call me boring but i get my kicks from sitting there blasting npcs with my caldari character and zipping around at daft m/s in my inty. Thanks ccp u just destroyed most of that fun. For over 2 years i have honed this character in on caldari missiles and boats and as far as i can tell you have just decimated a lot of that training. When i think of the amount of money i have piled into this, like many others will have done (some more so) the prospect of retraining this character to get back where i was is stupid economy. I can understand some of the aspects to the inty and tackling patches, the missiles i do not and this is getting perilously close to being canceled (if i hadnt already put 6 months on 3 alts) and i assure i have played little else all year long. CCP sort this STUPID missile nerf out or refund my money or give me the 10mil skill points (approx) to redistribute into useful skills. This nerf is so poorly thought out, as people have said guns have many advantages pre-patch compared to missiles, so if the angle is pvp is it not the guns that need reducing? You can say that I should use drones more, maybe, so make the drone bays bigger (myrm 150m3 drake 25m3?!). Ok screw the explosion velocity stuff up, so make the target painters work more effectively so i dont have to swap all my lows for bcu's to get to where i WAS. sry im going on, but this has SERIOUSLY narked me off like no other unnecessary nerf before. You have wasted my time and money, thanks |
Gunns AbeLazin
|
Posted - 2008.11.20 18:57:00 -
[402]
/Signed |
Tempest Inferno
Davy Jones Locker Einherjar Alliance
|
Posted - 2008.11.20 20:41:00 -
[403]
I believe the nerf was long over due but not to this level. The explosion radius should be set AT A MINIMUM to the HIGHEST BASE speed of that class of ship. A good place imo would be at base speed plus L2 speed skills. This will allow the computation to work a lot better at adjusting speed to damage.
thank you for your time. |
Shaemell Buttleson
Euphoria Released
|
Posted - 2008.11.21 01:26:00 -
[404]
When a Jaguar can own an Assault launcher equiped Cerberus that is flown by a pilot with more or less maxed skills for missiles and shield tanking then something isn't right.
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Eternal Error
Exitus Acta Probant
|
Posted - 2008.11.21 04:03:00 -
[405]
Meh, just repeal the whole patch. Turret boats got hit hard too, deal with it.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2008.11.21 09:42:00 -
[406]
Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson When a Jaguar can own an Assault launcher equiped Cerberus that is flown by a pilot with more or less maxed skills for missiles and shield tanking then something isn't right.
You must have been doing something very wrong for this to have happened. |
Shaemell Buttleson
Euphoria Released
|
Posted - 2008.11.21 16:50:00 -
[407]
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson When a Jaguar can own an Assault launcher equiped Cerberus that is flown by a pilot with more or less maxed skills for missiles and shield tanking then something isn't right.
You must have been doing something very wrong for this to have happened.
I did nothing wrong as I was the Jag pilot and it was with repeated testing on sisi.
The Cerb pilot is one of the best I have known and he even tried kinetic precisions as well as CN bloodclaws.
It's not just us that have found this to be the case either!
|
Blastil
|
Posted - 2008.11.21 18:21:00 -
[408]
I find the missle nerf excellent. I can now tank Guristas rats in a BC on the same level as I tank gun-based rats. Adittionally, from everything I've seen (and I've been out ratting with some mates in a raven) they can instapop the frigs moving at full speed no problem. Sure he fits a target painter.
What this HAS done is put Caldari ships in line with the ability of galente and minmatar ships when it comes to ratting and PVP, where the ability for torps to hit frigates for full damage was ENDING the usefullness of ships that were smaller than cruisers and NOT speed tanked. This nerf did more to end nano fleets than the nano nerf. |
Rock'n'Roll Lady
|
Posted - 2008.11.21 20:11:00 -
[409]
/signed |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2008.11.21 22:36:00 -
[410]
Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson When a Jaguar can own an Assault launcher equiped Cerberus that is flown by a pilot with more or less maxed skills for missiles and shield tanking then something isn't right.
You must have been doing something very wrong for this to have happened.
I did nothing wrong as I was the Jag pilot and it was with repeated testing on sisi.
The Cerb pilot is one of the best I have known and he even tried kinetic precisions as well as CN bloodclaws.
It's not just us that have found this to be the case either!
Getting in range of the Jag = doing it wrong, tbh. From my experience, AML Cerb casually slaughters all frigates.
But even in a straight slugfest at point-blank range, with an unwebbed ABing Jag (which can't actually close on a MWD-fit Cerberus, and if it uses MWD to do so then it just dies), I'm having difficulty modelling a sensible Jag fit than can survive for more than a couple of minutes of kinetic AML fire - which just isn't long enough to deal enough damage to cut through any kind of tanked Cerb's tank.
So I'd like to know the fits, tbh. |
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Undeadguy
|
Posted - 2008.11.21 23:28:00 -
[411]
Signed. I have had to hang up my mission hat for perma mining. I dont wanna retrain new skills just so i can friggin do missions. CCP Please revert (or find a medium) for this please.
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Hammerlock
Mentat Assassins
|
Posted - 2008.11.22 08:47:00 -
[412]
It sucks what can I say...
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Ignition SemperFi
Private Nuisance
|
Posted - 2008.11.23 05:57:00 -
[413]
its obvious that CCP wants us to adapt and have to fit target painters to do full dmg for caldari. they made a reason to require it, not just make it easier.
on that note... training amarr bs lvl 5. since everything else is basically nerfsd to hell. Seeing as I have already laid out the problem with caldari and the midpoints for pvp ------ People Say Im paranoid because I have a gun, I say I dont have to be paranoid because I have a gun.
Garmon - "I LOK ON TO ROMULAN WARBIRD AND GO POW POW POW" |
Elektrea
SniggWaffe
|
Posted - 2008.11.23 06:16:00 -
[414]
this is your nano nerf, you guys brought it on your self ----------
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Odessima
Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
|
Posted - 2008.11.23 09:12:00 -
[415]
Originally by: Elektrea this is your nano nerf, you guys brought it on your self
How is that, obviously you think that its only missile users that were only complaining about nanoing, not the Capitals, not amarr ships, not gallente ships, yes thats right it must have been those rotten Caldari PVP missiles ships that apparently are (so Ive been told only good for PVE), and of course we should have all apparently gone and trained so that we could nano our ships because yes you guessed it, we should all be flying only ships that can be effectively nanoed, and everyone who doesnt do it must be a loser cause they dont want to.
In actual fact you got nano nerfed cause it is actually a fact that you guys bought it upon yourselves, 1 or 2 nano ships wasnt the problem its just the fact that it was becoming the only viable ship to fly, and I am quite sure that CCP on its own are quite able to realise that they dont want Eve to go in that direction.
Not everyone who uses missiles is *****ing about the fact that we have trouble hitting frigates with Torpedo's |
Borneous
|
Posted - 2008.11.23 18:11:00 -
[416]
I just post my message to say that I do not like this nerf. And that i'm considering to stop playing EVE when my gametime expires.
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Ignition SemperFi
Private Nuisance
|
Posted - 2008.11.23 23:42:00 -
[417]
Edited by: Ignition SemperFi on 23/11/2008 23:42:12 exactly there are different groups of missile users that want missiles retweaked. Some want the whole patch put back, others just want some numbers redone.
1. Tears that my BS guns dont hit frigs/interceptors 2. Group that says as yes 1 more pvp midslot mod needed on missile ships, now where to put it 3. BS vs BS warfare just gimped missiles even more so. Even w/ the web nerf, missile boats fail next to gunnery boats fit for pvp most of the time.
I have no problem w/ speed and sig radius coming into effect for missile damage, it should of been that way in the first place.... its so many other issues surrounding it and some of the base values they choose for missile explosion radius and velocity. Where is the missile users lowslot version of a tracking enhancer?
My adapt and overcome for this is fine, it just killed one of the ways i loved to fly - solo in a BS w/ missiles and actually have a good chance of surviving.
Now its back to flying my wetpaper dps vulture and nighthawks, or fly blaster/gun ships... and im leaning more towards guns neways. Whats sad is the amount of idiot carebear n00bs that fill these threads, or make new threads, full of whine that their missiles do crap dmg against mission frigs and somehow think the pvp missile community agrees with them. ------ People Say Im paranoid because I have a gun, I say I dont have to be paranoid because I have a gun.
Garmon - "I LOK ON TO ROMULAN WARBIRD AND GO POW POW POW" |
Bobinoo
|
Posted - 2008.11.24 01:29:00 -
[418]
/signed
My nighthawk is nothing compared to my absolution.
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Amoxi Cillian
|
Posted - 2008.11.24 20:56:00 -
[419]
All a carrier has to do is move to avoid Citadel Torpedo damage! Same with every other missile I take it... Making missiles only effective when hostile target it stationary.
ŒŒ
|
GatoOFruits
|
Posted - 2008.11.24 21:17:00 -
[420]
/signed
|
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Ignition SemperFi
Private Nuisance
|
Posted - 2008.11.25 14:04:00 -
[421]
Ya CCP isnt going to listen.
When they have their mind set on a nerf, no amount of thread whorage will stop it. Yes they might tweak it... but Im even beginning to doubt that.
Pulses>Blasters>Torps>Auto for BS weapons Pulses>Autos>Blasters>Hams for your BC/cruiser weapons
yes even with the web nerfs.
------ People Say Im paranoid because I have a gun, I say I dont have to be paranoid because I have a gun.
Garmon - "I LOK ON TO ROMULAN WARBIRD AND GO POW POW POW" |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2008.11.25 16:59:00 -
[422]
Originally by: Ignition SemperFi Pulses>Blasters>Torps>Auto for BS weapons Pulses>Autos>Blasters>Hams for your BC/cruiser weapons
Quoted for complete ignorance and incompetence. Dearie dearie me, that's painfully wrong.
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Gael Itrus
|
Posted - 2008.11.25 18:40:00 -
[423]
It has been a while since QR released and in spite of the backlash from the missile nerf I have yet to see an official response from CCP. Actually I haven't seen a single response at all, which leads me to believe CCP thinks their broken game mechanics aren't a problem, or they don't actually read their forums.
If you have no intention of fixing this game imbalance will you at least let us know? It will help missile users to make intelligent decisions about what to train for next.
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Atreus Tac
Quatidion Circle-Of-Two
|
Posted - 2008.11.25 18:48:00 -
[424]
Edited by: Atreus Tac on 25/11/2008 18:47:59 i agree with this, however do not make it back to what it was like. just make them more useful. they are already nefd in gamgs due to flight time, nso maybe increase that?
i have no idea tho, its not my job. my job is to notice problems. __________________________________________________________
-Cheers-
Atreus Tac
|
Khamal Jolstien
Caldari Product Number 3
|
Posted - 2008.11.25 20:53:00 -
[425]
Originally by: Atreus Tac Edited by: Atreus Tac on 25/11/2008 18:47:59 i agree with this, however do not make it back to what it was like. just make them more useful. they are already nefd in gamgs due to flight time, nso maybe increase that?
i have no idea tho, its not my job. my job is to notice problems.
The way they were before was perfectly fine and reasonable. Scale back the nano nerf (was an incredible overkill), and rollback the missile changes and you'll have a good game again.
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JorEl Tarasque
|
Posted - 2008.11.26 00:52:00 -
[426]
Originally by: Khamal Jolstien
Originally by: Atreus Tac Edited by: Atreus Tac on 25/11/2008 18:47:59 i agree with this, however do not make it back to what it was like. just make them more useful. they are already nefd in gamgs due to flight time, nso maybe increase that?
i have no idea tho, its not my job. my job is to notice problems.
The way they were before was perfectly fine and reasonable. Scale back the nano nerf (was an incredible overkill), and rollback the missile changes and you'll have a good game again.
Agreed.
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Odessima
Caldari The Black Rabbits The Gurlstas Associates
|
Posted - 2008.11.26 10:50:00 -
[427]
In light of the recent QR changes to missiles, the only reasonable solution I can really come up with for making the Raven, Caracal and Cerberus and probably the Faction variants more balanced, is to remove 1 turret high slot and add 1 midslot. This would allow them to still fit the same amout of missiles, but they would lose 1 high slot that would be used for something else, and adds 1 midslot that could be used for a web, or target painter.
I am not suggesting this for either the Drake or the Marauder, because they would be over powered with them.
The Raven already has 2 High slots that are different to its Primary weapon which is missiles, compared with the Mega which has only 1.
Leave the current missile changes in place, no one can complain that we wouldnt be giving anything up for an extra midslot, it would also mean one less slot for a Raven to have a cloak put in, so a Raven Cloaker would be sacrificing more to fit that cloak.
I know Im going to probably get hate posts but it is really the only alternative that I can think of that will give something up, for something in return and would be taking something away from Raven and Cerb mission pilots while giving something to PVP pilots.
I would also like to sugest a change to reduce power grid or cpu and perhaps a reduction bonus for a target painter as that is more in line with missiles, which would only allow a painter to be fitted to the midslots with the current shield tanking ability instead of a shield, web, scrambler or other mod
There may be other Missile ships that need it
Flame away..... |
Needa3
BURN EDEN Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.11.26 12:23:00 -
[428]
get the missles back to what they were!
some ******(s) at ccp needs to get fired for this stupid nerf
some people do use missles for pvp
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SPQRMocton
Minmatar Calmarr Technologies
|
Posted - 2008.11.26 12:38:00 -
[429]
Edited by: SPQRMocton on 26/11/2008 12:44:57 Edited by: SPQRMocton on 26/11/2008 12:44:40 NOT SIGNED , I was smacking the snot out of an amarr bc today with my raven and torps he had to flee after my second volley hit him as he was nearly out of armor, can you say target painter ,learn to adapt PLEASE , oh and t2 drones do a fine job on cruisers
Fly reckless and take chances..............it's more fun |
Damion Jawface
Deep Core Mining Inc.
|
Posted - 2008.11.26 14:40:00 -
[430]
Considering that i do missions 90% of the time... thankx to my lack of time and ability to coordinate real fights with my teammates (i have a job and school)..... i would love to have my cruise missiles work like they used too.
FIX IT
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Jah'Ret Khan
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2008.11.26 17:05:00 -
[431]
The missile change is awesome. The free meal ticket is gone now all you Raven-noobs out there.
I'm going to go kill more Ravens with a pair of Assault Frigates now... ************************** We go ZOOM-ZOOM! You go BOOM-BOOM!
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IxenBlaze
Gallente Fighting While Intoxicated Intrepid Crossing
|
Posted - 2008.11.26 17:38:00 -
[432]
/signed
Please fix this along with some other things that make absolutely no sense in this quantum fail expansion.
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Cpt Iwan
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2008.11.26 18:26:00 -
[433]
They need to be tweaked a bit more.
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Beepus
|
Posted - 2008.11.26 20:43:00 -
[434]
Originally by: Marconus Orion
Originally by: KTOZ
Originally by: Marconus Orion Missile changes are fine. Because of the speed changes on all ships in the game, if they were left unbalanced then it would be Caldari "I Win Button" more than what it is.
Get over it.
Plz tell me that you are caldari and made a few tests already after the patch and surprise me!!
Why ppl talk about things that they dont have a clue??
CCP : plz take take 2 sama skilled char and test (raven for a start with 2 of the fallowings-> point/web/speed mod ) vs other race bs's.. then lover the other race chars sp and make the same test again. You will notice that the result wont change!! We are unable to kill anything who is smart enough to move around abit.. Our dmg become worthless..
So.
/me points to the gunnery skill tree
Right click and train.
Are yopu for real?! 2 years into missiles, right-click train? are u serious?! LOOK at the heading of this thread, it has 'AGAINST missile nerf' for a reason. If you support the missile nerf be quiet and post your support under a suitably named thread. Thank you.
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AbudSeab
|
Posted - 2008.11.27 01:37:00 -
[435]
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Rsorh Nalozigur
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Posted - 2008.11.27 02:59:00 -
[436]
missile nerf is very harsh, CCP nerfed missiles to appease the people who were crying because of speed nerf and in doing that totally ignored the missile users and completely obliterated it, they need to look at it again and correct the blunder they have done.
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Elwin Ransom
|
Posted - 2008.11.27 17:57:00 -
[437]
/signed
In PVP, Missiles were underpowered before and this patch has made it worse. The irony of having to beg to have them go back to a previously underpowered state is rather disconcerting...
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KTOZ
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.11.28 13:18:00 -
[438]
So what ccp think actually about this concerns? Are you satisfied with the nerf and think that its all balanced now or there s still someone out there who pay attention on what ppl moans about? Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Larkonis Trassler
Neo Spartans
|
Posted - 2008.11.28 14:58:00 -
[439]
Disagree. With the nano nerf, even with the missile rebalance is no longer possible to speed tank missile ships nearly as effectively, you wanted a nano nerf, missiles needed balancing too, you can't have your cake and eat it. If you wish to shoot at a smaller class use the approapriate T2 ammo/use drones.
Get out there and play the game, then report back. Calm Your Passion |
KTOZ
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
|
Posted - 2008.11.28 15:43:00 -
[440]
Originally by: Larkonis Trassler Disagree. With the nano nerf, even with the missile rebalance is no longer possible to speed tank missile ships nearly as effectively, you wanted a nano nerf, missiles needed balancing too, you can't have your cake and eat it. If you wish to shoot at a smaller class use the approapriate T2 ammo/use drones.
Get out there and play the game, then report back.
Hmm seems like you didnt read or understand anything from what is written on those 15 pages..
We were saying that we were not able to hit targets of OUR SIZE with max dmg.. = BS vs BS or BC vs BC etc.. even not only equal sizes but we even do crap dmg to moving targets bigger then our ship's size (this is with maxed missile and spaceship command...
And i already reported back if you go a few pages above.. now you go play the game with what i play with and report back Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
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Saladin
Minmatar Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
|
Posted - 2008.11.28 16:11:00 -
[441]
I think the changes are fine, the missile nerf was needed given the way speed was nerfed. I have an alt who runs missions in a Raven, and I can't say they are more difficult. Now this thing about doing max damage to ships of the same class. In a turret based ship the only way I do max damage is if they are sitting still, which should hold true for missile users, and does hold true under the current nerf.
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Crellion
Art of War Exalted.
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Posted - 2008.11.28 18:16:00 -
[442]
I have been playing for approx 4 year, almost solely pvp, most kills with blasters and drones but also use lasers and missles.
I sign this petition as the nerf was completely wrong and made a whole weapon category useless.
Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim. |
Stalina
Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad
|
Posted - 2008.11.29 17:44:00 -
[443]
Originally by: Saladin Now this thing about doing max damage ...
Molle alt spotted !!! j/k
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Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated
|
Posted - 2008.11.30 07:01:00 -
[444]
Just way too much...
AK Honor is that which you do when no one else is looking.
Ethics, Honor and Respect. Without the first two, you can't buy the last one...
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AbudSeab
|
Posted - 2008.11.30 12:19:00 -
[445]
Edited by: AbudSeab on 30/11/2008 12:24:48 Edited by: AbudSeab on 30/11/2008 12:22:32 Edited by: AbudSeab on 30/11/2008 12:21:08 CCP should never operate big changes (more than 10%) in any attribute. It's a game supposed to have a evolutive story line. How could someone enjoy the coherent storyline if technology can have unevolutions. A piece of tech that gives you 16% a boost of something should never be changed to give you 10% after some day. Or missiles with an explosition effect should not have that effect hardly changed.
This makes the proposal of a persistent universe with a coherent story line totally crap. How could people be confident in CPP adminstration? Why should I think in EVE universe as a thing where should I make plans to my character ? The plann can be at any time invalidate ! ! !
If some tech got to much power the right way to re-balance is launch counter-tech to deal it the situation. just like in real world. An army don't ask another to reduce effectiveness of their weapons. they develop new counter-weapons.
Sorry if servers are not able to deal with speed (it's an internal problem) should never had come to users. To re-balance speed why not some kind of device to deal with this? Why not an implant disruptor which disable some implants in user? Or a better web ? To deal with missiles doing damage to frigs why not a new hardener that works better againt missiles? Some kind of flare like in real life or eletronic guidance disruptor that reduces precision of missiles. Or even turn frig more resitive to missiles is more accepteable that turn missiles less effective. Observe that the result are the same but those option doesn't break the feel of continuity in EVE universe.
In my point of view CCP got hardly un-imaginative in this patch. loosing player base confidence by complete lack of imagination on how to deal with the speed problem.
Having in mind the absence of imagination should be better to roll-back this patch and re-think the role product... What are you selling? An story line consistent playing experience or just new models and nice images to see? Can we invest our time doing plans or is it better to stop to do that at this point? What skill plan users should do that will not be invalidated in near future? Can we have the nice feeling of rock solid commitment from you or it's just an investment from our part without commitement from you?
that's why i'm signing this petition. It's not a question only on nerf of missiles.
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Trailerboy
|
Posted - 2008.11.30 13:36:00 -
[446]
Look, i can adapt just like others. I've now found that my T1 cruise do far more damage against all ship classes than my T2's. Which, I guess, saves me ISK on not buying so much T2 ammo any more. The most frustrating thing is they say it will work the same against the same class, which is still not true. The T1 cruise do almost 100HP better per missile than the T2's against BS's. The only exception I've found so far is Zor in L4 Damsel in Distress where my T2's finally hit like they should, and of course structures. My drones still chew cruise and smaller class ships. The only thing I'm upset on is the fact that I spent time training for T2 cruise missiles that are now, for the most part, completely useless. Look on the bright side, at least Cruise Missile Specialization doesn't affect damage, but launcher rate of fire, so at least all is not lost.
Anyway, signed, maybe not to be returned to previous state, but reviewed for functionality. |
spiders vengance
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Posted - 2008.11.30 18:05:00 -
[447]
/signed After coming back from a 4 month deployment and not knowing that QR had come out log in to take my raven out for a quick lvl 4 to get back into the game and I couldn't hit the cruisers cause they were moving too fast is just plain annoying. I agree that some changed had to be made to missiles but after what you did to my torps and making them only go 30km killing all other missiles is just plain torture.
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leboe
Heretic Army
|
Posted - 2008.11.30 19:19:00 -
[448]
my cerb still snipes, my 3xBCU raven still ganks, and <3 the plated rocket kestrel
missile changes are okay by me, don't change it back.
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Ignition SemperFi
Private Nuisance
|
Posted - 2008.12.02 03:50:00 -
[449]
just fix the explosion radius/velocity a bit FFS
IM not asking to gank the small crap with my BS weapons... i want to hit the BS for dmg thats more than laughable. Even blasters get tracking help from skills... but Torps and HAMs get no explosion radius reduction due to the Guided Missile Precision skill
Again missiles were subpar to blasters before the patch... now they can barely hit the MWD small stuff or even worse try to shoot the ABing small stuff, whatever that needs to be that way. But trying to shoot your own sized hull shouldnt have massive dmg reductions just because they decided to speed tank by just moving 80m/s ------ People Say Im paranoid because I have a gun, I say I dont have to be paranoid because I have a gun.
Garmon - "I LOK ON TO ROMULAN WARBIRD AND GO POW POW POW" |
Kim Moore
|
Posted - 2008.12.02 10:07:00 -
[450]
Edited by: Kim Moore on 02/12/2008 10:09:59 Still no reply from CCP even acknowledging they have created a serious problem with missiles.
I watched a bs npc speed tank a cruise raven on an 05 character last night. That is broken mechanics, pure and simple.
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Alekseyev Karrde
Noir.
|
Posted - 2008.12.02 13:09:00 -
[451]
Missiles are fine. The other day I flew my Ares out 170km to try and tackle a pirate Cerberus. Before i was even in point range, i had to warp out because its heavy missiles, which previously my ship could outspeed and take 0 damage, were actually landing.
They werent hitting for much individually mind you, but by the second volly the Cerb convinced me I couldnt hang around.
So yes, missiles arnt the full damage suppositories they were before. But you know what, you're able to use them effectivly on more targets. And if you need to incorporate the stasis webbers/target painters that high caliber turret ships have had to rely on to hit small targets at all/for full damage since I've been playing is that really so bad?
Only exception to this "missiles are fine" mantra is the stealth bomber. That's a ship without a purpose atm. Its bonuses need adjusting to make it fly for its old role or it needs a new one all together. ---
Zombie Apocalypse Guitar-Wielding Superteam |
Haakelen
Gallente Fire Mandrill
|
Posted - 2008.12.02 13:10:00 -
[452]
Originally by: Alekseyev Karrde Missiles are fine.
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Kim Moore
|
Posted - 2008.12.02 14:47:00 -
[453]
Originally by: Alekseyev Karrde
So yes, missiles arnt the full damage suppositories they were before. But you know what, you're able to use them effectivly on more targets. And if you need to incorporate the stasis webbers/target painters that high caliber turret ships have had to rely on to hit small targets at all/for full damage since I've been playing is that really so bad?
The problem isn't that missiles are doing less damage to smaller targets. The problem is that missiles are not doing full damage to the targets they were designed to hit.
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Ghost Riderr
|
Posted - 2008.12.02 15:27:00 -
[454]
I use missles very little but I do have 2.5 mill sp in them. First off they did go too far with the missle nerf but but just a little bit. you complain that torps don't hitt a BS for full damage, turrets never have. At full base speed any BS will be reducing the damage from turrets and now from missles too, and that is fine. The problem is that the drop off is far to fast with missles now to be ballenced. They hit for full damage unless u were going insane speeds, witch was unballenced too. if they tweek the damage drop off formula to start at the full base speed of the same class of ship and continue to drop at half the rate of turrets that would bring them in line. And bring out a mid slot mod to incress exp. veloicty.
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Karl Proseck
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Posted - 2008.12.02 20:17:00 -
[455]
ok, i know this is gonna hurt but, i do support the missile changes, just not as severe as it is
pre patch my amarr buddy could not take a missile user, they hit just too hard, he had 6mil sp at the time and was heavily invested into his defenses
post patch he can survive now, so that part of it makes it cool, it works
no for the flip side im caldari, was flying a raven and scorp tested with my raven, with cruise missiles and yes i did less damage pre patch, but i trained up guided missile precision, warhead upgrades, and the other skills associated with it, so yes you can mitigate the missile changes to a point here are the problems i see 1. missiles do static damage, no perfect shot, no misses either but our range is the end all of hit/miss 2. sig radius penalty is only a penalty, tested cruises with 2 points in guided missile precision vs an armegeddon, his sig rad was 327, i hit him for 112, i used my target painter vs him which upped his sig by 27.5%, or at least i assumed, because i hit him again, for 112 3. missile launchers tend to have a much worse rate of fire then turrets, again my amarr buddy and i tested this aspect, he does 650-750 every 4.75 seconds with lasers, i do 1800 every 15.3 seconds which works out to roughly he fires 3.2 times to my one, so the damage is equalised out, now this is vs a stationary target so the velocity penalties are not figured in 4. explosion velocity is highly wrong, a missile system designed for battleships cant even explode fast enough to hit a battleship, this just seems like a math error on the devs part, probably a minor oversight that we just need to bring to light, from a roleplayers point of view:why would caldari engineers design a missle to kill battleships with an explosive velocity that is around 50% of the slowest velocity of said ships
ok, off my soapbox now all im saying here is the missile changes are good for mission running non-caldari, but now that the system is in place we need to work out the bugs
so /signed 50%
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sicieler
Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2008.12.03 01:19:00 -
[456]
i agree that these changes are stupid. missiles are even worse than they already were.
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Mortus's Dealer
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Posted - 2008.12.03 09:03:00 -
[457]
Edited by: Mortus''s Dealer on 03/12/2008 09:06:25 /signed
I have cancelled all my 3 accounts. My main character is caldari and trained only missile skills. Missiles and shield tank were not so good for PvP and now... totally sucks.
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Fardak
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Posted - 2008.12.03 17:14:00 -
[458]
Signed
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Ming Ping
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Posted - 2008.12.04 14:30:00 -
[459]
It't not only the missile nerf. They recently dissabled ghost-training aswell. EVe-online begins to start less fun to play if you start counting all these things together. |
stealth111110
Minmatar
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Posted - 2008.12.04 18:18:00 -
[460]
Missile issue is a very negative change. Please reverse.The game is going Down Hill People Are Leaving the game Because of All the Nerfs Bad Move CCP .
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Tiana Salvan
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Posted - 2008.12.04 20:58:00 -
[461]
/signed
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Threv Echandari
K Directorate
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Posted - 2008.12.04 21:45:00 -
[462]
Too bad most of the people going /signed don't see the "Check here if you want to give your support to the idea/discussion going on"
At any rate I support bringing the issue up with CCP as I think the missile nerf went a bit too far, not to mention totally screwing over the stealth Bomber as fit for anything other than reprocessing. (and NO making it a Torpedo ship isn't an option)
---------------------------------------- Happiness is a Wet Pod
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Tybalt Hancock
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Posted - 2008.12.04 22:26:00 -
[463]
I support this being fixed. The biggest problem with the argument here is that there are so many different opinions on how to "fix" missiles. Missiles were broken in the sense that cruise's could WTFpwn frigs, that was bull and we know it, and because of the speed nerf the numbers on missiles needed to be tweaked, but this has gone to far. There was a reason that the majority of the PvP community warned every new player not to train missiles for pvp and this just made it worse, and thatÆs crap you should be able to blow up ships of equal size with any weapon type as long as you are fitted, skilled, and using them properly.
The argument to "adapt" by training Amarr (said WAY to much) is also crap, all four races are supposed to be viable in this game, one weapon type shouldn't be the PvE type while all the rest are good for both.
Missiles needed to be fixed from being able to damage all ship sizes that was true, but itÆs to far when you can't get anywhere decent DPS on an equal sized ship. Supported.
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KTOZ
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.12.05 10:31:00 -
[464]
Originally by: Tybalt Han**** all four races are supposed to be viable in this game, one weapon type shouldn't be the PvE type while all the rest are good for both.
thank you! Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Jach Wong
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Posted - 2008.12.05 15:41:00 -
[465]
Originally by: Tybalt Han**** The argument to "adapt" by training Amarr (said WAY to much) is also crap, all four races are supposed to be viable in this game, one weapon type shouldn't be the PvE type while all the rest are good for both.
It should also be worth noting that most people pushing the "adapt" line are either armor tankers or gunboat pilots to begin with.
1) Squeezing an extra web and target painter on a gunboat is painful, but ultimately not crippling; doing the same on a shield tanking missile boat simply halves tanking capacity.
2) It's also far easier to switch to lasers from hybrids, since you'd already have all the supporting gunnery skills. "This is not the boot you're looking for." |
Kordel Trask
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Posted - 2008.12.05 21:27:00 -
[466]
I agree, Undo this friggin nerf!
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Moloch Baal
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Posted - 2008.12.06 02:05:00 -
[467]
Edited by: Moloch Baal on 06/12/2008 02:05:29 I'm Amarr and not realy familiar with missiles but the other night I saw a T2 minmatar frigate permatank a crow, a drake and one or two other T1 caldari frigates and that went on for like 20 minutes. Now something tells me that just can't be right... and by reading some of the facts on here, I think the nerf might have been a bit overdone...
so signed.
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Ignition SemperFi
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2008.12.07 01:06:00 -
[468]
not to mention the amount of craptastic dmg a citadel torp does to a moving cap ship. The new explosion velocity/radius rates are terrible. ------ People Say Im paranoid because I have a gun, I say I dont have to be paranoid because I have a gun.
Garmon - "I LOK ON TO ROMULAN WARBIRD AND GO POW POW POW" |
Sogor
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Posted - 2008.12.07 02:38:00 -
[469]
I agree :(. New explosion velocity is just rediculous. I can see, like, an interceptor or something avoiding parts of a blast, but when missiles start doing minor damage against ships of the class they were designed for, it puts a major impediment on missile user's fun.
/signed
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Hamsalad
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Posted - 2008.12.07 10:46:00 -
[470]
Signed
This is the second time you have nerfed missiles to a point of being useless. Last time CCP added more or less a new skill tree that included speed boost, rate of fire boost, and damage boost etc. I didn't complain then because there more or less a way out. Now I have sunk all the skill pts into missiles and they are wortless again. It's plain to see players like using missiles dispite the fact they are already nearly useless in PVP other than POS shooting. Now they are a total waste of time. I've been playing since about two weeks after go live and I can say you guys have over done it this time. You can change the numbers but the degree of change as it stands is too much. I find it harder and harder to keep my accounts going at present this isn't any help.
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Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2008.12.07 11:10:00 -
[471]
Stupid nerf.
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Ferenc Puskas
Stair Fall Bring Out Ya Dead
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Posted - 2008.12.07 11:30:00 -
[472]
even tho I have 4mil in missiles and 2.5 in gunnery(awu V) STILL FIX MISSILES ME NEED TO DO MISSIONS AND CREATE BOOM
------------------------------- I LOVE TO PARTY HARDY! |
Katsuhiro Kusanagi
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Posted - 2008.12.07 11:44:00 -
[473]
The missile nerf as a whole was necesary, getting an interceptor flying at 7km/second shot up by cruise missiles was ridiculous, but yes, it shouldnt be that missiles are only any use against bigger class than the missile.
I think frigs should be too fast to easily hit with large missiles, but having cruise missiles not doing full damage to slow as hell BSs is silly.
Having said that, a raven was hitting my 5km/s ceptor with missiles last week... so not sure its really as bad as caldari pilots are making out.
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Ignition SemperFi
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2008.12.08 06:33:00 -
[474]
hopefully the new CSM picks this up. Yes CCP may say we decided missiles will suck, deal with it, or hey maybe we did overtweak the numbers abit. Either way this needs to be brought to CCP's attention, since its been proven they dont play the game.
So im asking the new CSM, please bring this forward ------ People Say Im paranoid because I have a gun, I say I dont have to be paranoid because I have a gun.
Garmon - "I LOK ON TO ROMULAN WARBIRD AND GO POW POW POW" |
eC Cade
Caldari Stargate SG-1 Sev3rance
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Posted - 2008.12.08 21:57:00 -
[475]
Signed. Ah-Hoi! |
Cismani
Crystalline INC
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Posted - 2008.12.09 02:59:00 -
[476]
/signed
well looks like i'm changing into another Race... i spent 12 months getting my Missile skills up, now they suck...
either reverse the nurf, or nurf all the other weapon systems, Projectile, Hibreds and Lasers....
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KTOZ
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.12.09 14:59:00 -
[477]
Ok, yesterday we had a fight vs an ishtar in my drake, we were 2 and had 2 webs + 2pts warp scram on him (so no mwd he could use), he was stationnary and i have fallowing missile skills:
Guided Missile Precision 5
Heavy Missile Specialization 5
Heavy Missiles 5 Missile Bombardment 5
Missile Launcher Operation 5
Missile Projection 5
Rapid Launch 5
Target Navigation Prediction 5
Warhead Upgrades 5
Battle cruisers 5
I had 2 bcu with all t2 heavy launchers +20k shield + good resists
But i was doing "32" dmg to a STATIONNARY ishtar.. 32 dmg with everything maxed.. his ogre II's were making my double dmg + 25dmg.. Yes i switched to em and expl missiles asap but the dmg increase wasnt enought to kill him before he kills my 80 sp friends hictor an my drake ( GF to the guy and well done as i said in local )..
Now ccp, you have done something really wrong somewhere..
I ve 12 mil sp ni missiles ( and all caldary ships at 5.. ) and you now tell me that it was a joke
This is not fair. This is not balanced. You havent balanced anything but broke something which wasnt that much broken..
Now atleast have the balls to answear our petitions and tell us that we are wrong or atleast you are doing some tests... but ignoring isnt the best way to satisfy your customers.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.12.09 15:43:00 -
[478]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 09/12/2008 15:48:05
Originally by: KTOZ Congealed Failure and Cluelessness
Complete drivel. It was stationary - there was no damage loss. Don't comment on game balance until you understand basic game mechanics.
What kind of clueless noob fires kinetic missiles at T2 Gallente anyway?
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Jack Bowers
K.O.R.
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Posted - 2008.12.09 18:04:00 -
[479]
Signed. I want my friggin missles back.
"There is no spoon."
http://kor-eve.forumclan.net/forum.htm |
KTOZ
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.12.09 22:57:00 -
[480]
Edited by: KTOZ on 09/12/2008 23:07:55
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 09/12/2008 15:48:05
Originally by: KTOZ Congealed Failure and Cluelessness
Complete drivel. It was stationary - there was no damage loss. Don't comment on game balance until you understand basic game mechanics.
What kind of clueless noob fires kinetic missiles at T2 Gallente anyway?
Hey smart as. did you read that part of my post before claiming how stupid you are ---->
Originally by: KTOZ Yes i switched to em and expl missiles asap but the dmg increase wasnt enought to kill him before he kills my 80 sp friends hictor an my drake
I m playing this game since 2004 and killed more then enough in caldari missile boats to prouve that i m not a clueless noob.. I can clearly see what those changes did to missiles that i m firing.
Ohh and he was as stationnary as a tanked ishtar without mwd and 2 webs on it, so maybe he was moving with insignificent speed if that will help you.. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
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5pinDizzy
Umpteenth Podding
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Posted - 2008.12.10 00:00:00 -
[481]
signed, for what good it will do.
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Gabriel Theodoulos
Vigilia Valeria Expeditionary Forces
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Posted - 2008.12.10 00:34:00 -
[482]
/ Signed
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.12.10 00:44:00 -
[483]
Originally by: KTOZ I m playing this game since 2004 and killed more then enough in caldari missile boats to prouve that i m not a clueless noob.. I can clearly see what those changes did to missiles that i m firing.
Ohh and he was as stationnary as a tanked ishtar without mwd and 2 webs on it, so maybe he was moving with insignificent speed if that will help you..
No, KTOZ, I'm afraid you are a clueless noob.
You said yourself that the Ishtar was stationary. Even if it wasn't, a dual-webbed Ishtar receives no damage mitigation from its speed.
The "32 damage" dealt was a result of the Ishtar's resists. It was nothing to do with its speed or the new missile mechanics. You have only yourself to blame.
Also, remember that under the old mechanics you'd have been hitting the 4 km/s Ishtar for 0.1 damage... not 32.
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SolidGold2
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Posted - 2008.12.10 04:02:00 -
[484]
Signed nighthawk don't do s+++ for damage anymore
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KTOZ
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.12.10 10:04:00 -
[485]
Edited by: KTOZ on 10/12/2008 10:14:50
Originally by: Gypsio III
The "32 damage" dealt was a result of the Ishtar's resists.
WOOW Really how genious you are?? are you still sure that you ve read that part of my post?? --> Originally by: KTOZ
Yes i switched to em and expl missiles asap but the dmg increase wasnt enought to kill him before he kills my 80 sp friends hictor an my drake (
Originally by: Gypsio III
Also, remember that under the old mechanics you'd have been hitting the 4 km/s Ishtar for 0.1 damage... not 32.
Are you serious ?? are you sure you are playing the same game we are talkin about? it was clearly possible to **** a dual webbed hac with missiles..
Anyway i m not after a smack talk here but trying to communicate my ingame experience to ccp who are supposed to pay attention and check out if something is wrong. If you have simmilar experiences and think the missiles are kick ass as they are, dont hesitate to share your endless knowledge with the comunity. But if you are here to agress ppl or lookin for a smack go to CAOD section its more popular for that kind of activity..
Ahh an If you want to find out who is a clueless noob man, convo me ingame i ll show you ok? But stop it in here.. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Arikanaiz
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Posted - 2008.12.10 10:19:00 -
[486]
As the OP, I would like to say, honestly, stop trolling this thread, for those of you who bring valid arguments fine, bring it and leave, if supporters of this thread wish to smack talk with you, show that you're the better person and just don't reply.
To those of us who truely believe that this nerf was "unbalanced" Don't waste your time in replying to the idiots of the world who just want to get a rise out of you because you're upset. I'm a lowsec jerk, I kill innocent people for kicks not cash, but at least I'm polite about it, everyone, show some dignity here!!!!!!!!!
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2008.12.10 10:32:00 -
[487]
KTOZ - read again, and try to understand it this time.
A dual-webbed Ishtar receives no damage mitigation from its speed. The damage that you dealt was SOLELY a result of the Ishtar's resists. It was nothing to do with its speed or the new missile mechanics, and everything to do with its resists.
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NathanMoore
Meltd0wn The Black Isle
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Posted - 2008.12.10 13:10:00 -
[488]
signed.
the changes went over the top.
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William Pierce
Universal Army
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Posted - 2008.12.10 17:51:00 -
[489]
Edited by: William Pierce on 10/12/2008 17:53:56 /signed!
After all the sp I've put into the already weak Caldari, they're now freaking worthless!
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Alex Wise
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Posted - 2008.12.11 13:16:00 -
[490]
signed again
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Riga Mortiss
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Posted - 2008.12.11 18:22:00 -
[491]
/signed with Alacrity!!... this nerf HAS to be revisited ... Caldari are now broken and those of us who specced missiles as a primary weapon have wasted a lot of time and money. CCP even states that Missiles are a Caldari Primary weapon system... it makes NO sense to have ships gimped due to new requirements for missile usage.
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Ignition SemperFi
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2008.12.12 13:08:00 -
[492]
To the top with you fred!
not to be lost among the threads about posxploits ---- People Say Im paranoid because I have a gun, I say I dont have to be paranoid because I have a gun.
Quote:
They already did introduce a counter to missiles, it's called Quantum Rise
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Anne Archer
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Posted - 2008.12.12 23:58:00 -
[493]
Signed
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Ignition SemperFi
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2008.12.15 01:06:00 -
[494]
any word from the CSM? ---- People Say Im paranoid because I have a gun, I say I dont have to be paranoid because I have a gun.
Quote:
They already did introduce a counter to missiles, it's called Quantum Rise
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Maria Martillo
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Posted - 2008.12.15 17:23:00 -
[495]
Edited by: Maria Martillo on 15/12/2008 17:23:56 /Signed
I try the changes on sisi. In fact, some days before the patch it seemed to be aceptable, cause it was and "improvement" in the behaviour missiles already had, this is: harder to hit small, fast ships, specially at close range.
On the other side, now you tank a full room aggro of missiles on moving, a hit of a torpedo makes you 34 damage with t1 hardeners....
In a lucky strike, i was cross training gallente. Conclussions:
I, with a mega(don't like domi), and less skills in gunnery than missiles can do LvL 4's even easier than a Raven (before QR)(drake is also ligthyears far efective), the good thing is that is also funnier. And Abbadon looks cute so.... *looks with tears the Raven left in the corner of the hangar* For missions, that's what i do now, the key is the strategy and the knwoledge. Now, even that is useless with the exagerate nerf. In PvP, gunboats have been always the main choose so...
This isn't a whine, cause i understand that many times your individual nerf is a good for the collective, and i accept,as in fact, CCP has generally do it well, but in this case i think is gone too far. Also, speed nerf is ludicrous....except if you enjoy snail races. Nerfing all is not a solution, balancing the problem is.
Yeah!!, my english sucks, but who cares??
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Gotrek65
Brimstone Order CryoGenesis Mining Syndicate
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Posted - 2008.12.15 18:21:00 -
[496]
Edited by: Gotrek65 on 15/12/2008 18:27:11 WTF people, I see a ton of /signed on the first page but no one is checking the checkbox
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2008.12.15 18:25:00 -
[497]
Originally by: Riga Mortiss /signed with Alacrity!!... this nerf HAS to be revisited ... Caldari are now broken and those of us who specced missiles as a primary weapon have wasted a lot of time and money. CCP even states that Missiles are a Caldari Primary weapon system... it makes NO sense to have ships gimped due to new requirements for missile usage.
Have you tried a Caldari ship since the changes?
I fly Caldari Missile ships on my main, and I haven't seen anything become much more difficult. Sure, I don't WTFPWN everything with my cruise missiles anymore, but this was an abomination anyway.
Missiles are fine. This is just another common whine thread for people who saw their I-Win button removed....
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Dianeces
The Illuminati. Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2008.12.15 19:00:00 -
[498]
Missiles are still better than turrets. They need to be brought more in line with the rest of the weapon systems.
No support.
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Haakelen
Gallente Cassandra's Light Caeruleum Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.15 19:05:00 -
[499]
Edited by: Haakelen on 15/12/2008 19:05:08 I have used missiles in both PvP and PvE post-patch, and I fail to see these massive problems.
Originally by: Gotrek65 WTF people, I see a ton of /signed on the first page but no one is checking the checkbox
What do you expect from Caldari players?
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Stalina
Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad
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Posted - 2008.12.15 20:15:00 -
[500]
Originally by: Ignition SemperFi any word from the CSM?
hm...looking at the pro/contra nano votes and looking back at this thread...you have 17 pages an not everyone has supported this topic.
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Billy Merc
Born-2-Kill Eradication Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.16 00:27:00 -
[501]
Edited by: Billy Merc on 16/12/2008 00:27:03 TBH as mentioned previously...if the missiles get un-nerfed...so too must the speed.
REALLY speed was a little insane...but hell at least if u dropped a rapier / huggin on top of a speedy bastard vaga...he was dead... people *****ed..but never took the time to use the tools at hand to stop nano ships...hell i was killin more nano ships pre nerf than i am now...webs suck ass now and have no real use....not to mention the vaga.
Curse + sensor booster II's + 1 x large neut + mates == dead nano if he declaoked within 72 km of u.
Huggin / rapier == dead nano if they ventured too close to your gang
heyna == dead ceptor if they ventures too close or where not going insanely fast
these are all but a few effective counters to nano's pre patch....pitty the tools that complained so much didnt have any imaginination...now yall are whinging about the nerf...well i myself have moved on...hope ya like the new changes and that ya learnt what happens when ya open ya pieholes before using your inititive / brain.
i support the rollback of missiles ONLY if everything else gets rolled back too...otherwise i offer no support
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Grann Thefauto
Minmatar Divine Insanity The Eden Project
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Posted - 2008.12.16 00:28:00 -
[502]
Edited by: Grann Thefauto on 16/12/2008 00:29:09 This is silly. Missiles are now in line with turrets. Turrets (especially BS sized) will do no damage at all when a ship is moving fast enough also. This has always been the case. You've pretty much always been able to speed tank a turret BS with frigs but that used to not work with a cruise raven. Thats now been fixed.
If you expect to fight small ships bring a small ship. If want to kill a BS with a torp ship bring a Target Painter. Its as simple as that. The problem isn't the missiles its the failure to properly fit. Now that missiles have tracking issues like other guns you need to start using mods that actually help you.
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Ignition SemperFi
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2008.12.16 13:41:00 -
[503]
Edited by: Ignition SemperFi on 16/12/2008 13:43:52 Edited by: Ignition SemperFi on 16/12/2008 13:42:26
Originally by: Grann Thefauto Edited by: Grann Thefauto on 16/12/2008 00:29:09 This is silly. Missiles are now in line with turrets. Turrets (especially BS sized) will do no damage at all when a ship is moving fast enough also. This has always been the case. You've pretty much always been able to speed tank a turret BS with frigs but that used to not work with a cruise raven. Thats now been fixed.
If you expect to fight small ships bring a small ship. If want to kill a BS with a torp ship bring a Target Painter. Its as simple as that. The problem isn't the missiles its the failure to properly fit. Now that missiles have tracking issues like other guns you need to start using mods that actually help you.
If your going to take this route then missiles need a DMG boost beyond what they got. Seriously missiles have always been substandard to guns for most pvp, and now they get nerfed even more against the SAME sized target they were intended for (bs vs vs) (cruiser/bc vs cruiser/bc). Not to mention there is no way to lower their "transversal" with missiles as compared to guns, because it doesnt matter which direction they are moving as long as they are moving. They dont even need propulsion mods in a BS, just be moving at full speed to take a huge dmg reduction
Look at the numbers before spouting off how they are inline with turrets. And as far as fitting(l2play statements), i broke it down earlier in the thread about pvp mods, missile ships, armor and shield tanks. Ave armor tanking ships have 7 lowslots 4 mids slots while ave sheild tankers have 6 mids and 5 lows. So where as shield tanks require 4 midslots(plus DC II, and other lows if you need fitting reqs for torps), armor tanks require 5 lows. Leaving you two dmg slots, plus your 4 mids. Shield tankers are left with 2 mids so MWD and point? or painter and point in one of the slowest BS's?
Where was your missiles need nerfed against BS's before the QR release?? they weren't there. You're only spouting off at missile users because it was a mass of idiot missile n00bs that whined for the speed nerf(for the most part i dont support those missile n00bs either that want cruises to full dmg a frig)
(the pvp mod reqs still affect the maelstrom but its a hole nother can of worms) The only other real missile BS worth anything is typhoon or scorp... and the scorp really doesnt count w/ its main weapon being ECM not torps.
Where do you put the painter on the solo raven? And before the caldari arent a solo race. Every race should have the ability to pvp in a solo boat with their BS, caldari are mainly missile users, so having them retrain an entire weapon system just to solo pvp isnt adapting... its a broken weapon system that needs fixing.
Then where guns have tracking enhancers, a lowslot mod to help with their "tracking" where is the lowslot version of that for missiles.
Im not asking for a full roll back, im asking to get the numbers tweaked so we have a chance of doing something more than tickling our victims in a BS vs BS combat ---- People Say Im paranoid because I have a gun, I say I dont have to be paranoid because I have a gun.
Quote:
They already did introduce a counter to missiles, it's called Quantum Rise
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Haakelen
Gallente Cassandra's Light Caeruleum Alliance
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Posted - 2008.12.16 13:59:00 -
[504]
Originally by: Ignition SemperFi If your going to take this route then missiles need a DMG boost beyond what they got.
Missiles and guns are not the same thing. They are different. Differences make things interesting.
Originally by: Ignition SemperFi bunch of :words: about target painters and midslots
You cannot fit a mid rack full of tank and a low rack full of damage, and somehow you don't see how this is balance? Try fitting a Geddon sometime and see how great armor tankers have it for midslots. Every PvP ship needs to fit propulsion mods, not just shield tanking ships. Megas and Abaddons can't do dualrep tanks and expect to fit good weapons, and you can't fit heavy tanks on Ravens/Rokhs and expect to have a cakewalk with fitting, either.
Originally by: Ignition SemperFi Then where guns have tracking enhancers, a lowslot mod to help with their "tracking" where is the lowslot version of that for missiles.
Missiles and guns are not the same thing. They are different. Differences make things interesting. Do you see Gallente whining for a blaster round that follows a target for 30 seconds, and will do full damage if he's webbed and painted before it hits?
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Lisa Waen
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Posted - 2008.12.16 17:11:00 -
[505]
IMO, a missile's explosion velocity should equal the average speed of the ship-class for that missile while running a T1 AB with lvl 4 in relevant skills. This would mean that smaller ships not using ABs would most likely take full damage (adjusted for explosion radius), but if you aren't moving, you deserve what you get.
If you are running a MWD on a battleship, you should be able to speed tank some of the damage dished out by a cruise missile, provided you are up to speed before the missile hits.
What I don't agree with is a battleship being able to even partially speed tank a cruise missile without using at least an AB.
/supported, not because the nerf bat was swung, but because they swung too hard.
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Ignition SemperFi
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2008.12.16 17:24:00 -
[506]
Edited by: Ignition SemperFi on 16/12/2008 17:25:10 Edited by: Ignition SemperFi on 16/12/2008 17:23:46
Originally by: Haakelen guns aren't missiles
yes i was replying to the person who was stating that missiles were now like guns. i dont want missiles to become like guns i just want some numbers tweaked.
Getting into fit this fit that debates. I have cross trained to gall, amarr, and caldari. I can armor, shield, gun, and missile. I know the fitting nightmare of the geddon, but the apoc works just fine, or the baddon. Infact right now Amarr has the best BS class style ships overall.
I know the fitting reqs and how to use those weapon systems. Have you used missiles... do you understand their downfalls or are you just spouting random nonsense because in your mind it makes sense?
The torp buff prior to QR finally brought the caldari a BS solo PVP platform that was comparable to one of the top tier solo BS's the mega.
For caldari to active tank their shields they cant even fit torps. So they are negated to cruises, so by then even all those wonderful dmg mods they get to field only bring them up to a theoretical DPS that only exsists if the target is moving at 0m/s.
If caldari go passive shield tank, their tanks still take cap unlike passive armor tanks. And they still need fitting mods. That im all fine with. As far as baddon and mega cant fit good dual reps... yes we can both agree these platforms excell as passive tank beasts. And will outlast both passive and active shield tankers almost every time.
I could deal with all of those problems, now you tack on a needed target painter/or web because some idiot cant even figure out that a BS sized weapon doesnt have an explosion radius to cover then entire BS sized ship with torps. The fact is, where does it go and the fact their explosion radius/velocity numbers are terrible thats where i have the serious problem.
Rokhs arent the issue here because they still use guns. The problem here is missile BS's and their needs. I guess the PVP torp raven was soooooo overpowered in BS 1 vs 1 it needed to be nerfed there. lawl -------------------------------------
I do agree with you on one thing haakelen. Different makes them interesting... but where I differ is that subpar makes them obsolete ---- People Say Im paranoid because I have a gun, I say I dont have to be paranoid because I have a gun.
Quote:
They already did introduce a counter to missiles, it's called Quantum Rise
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1angrydude
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Posted - 2008.12.17 08:37:00 -
[507]
signed with gusto
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su ling
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Posted - 2008.12.17 08:39:00 -
[508]
I'll get it right some day. with the support button clickedSigned again
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Gidgiddonah
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Posted - 2008.12.18 14:26:00 -
[509]
Quote: What I don't agree with is a battleship being able to even partially speed tank a cruise missile without using at least an AB
This.
/signed
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Blood Titan
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Posted - 2008.12.18 16:22:00 -
[510]
Originally by: Grann Thefauto Edited by: Grann Thefauto on 16/12/2008 00:29:09 This is silly. Missiles are now in line with turrets. Turrets (especially BS sized) will do no damage at all when a ship is moving fast enough also. This has always been the case. You've pretty much always been able to speed tank a turret BS with frigs but that used to not work with a cruise raven. Thats now been fixed.
If you expect to fight small ships bring a small ship. If want to kill a BS with a torp ship bring a Target Painter. Its as simple as that. The problem isn't the missiles its the failure to properly fit. Now that missiles have tracking issues like other guns you need to start using mods that actually help you.
This!
Caldari just got their I win button taken away. Honestly I still see CNR able to deal massive dps in line with turrets. You didn't get shafted, you got balanced and now you just have to use a little strategy.
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KTOZ
Caldari D00M. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2008.12.18 17:17:00 -
[511]
Edited by: KTOZ on 18/12/2008 17:20:15
Originally by: Blood Titan
Originally by: Grann Thefauto Edited by: Grann Thefauto on 16/12/2008 00:29:09 This is silly. Missiles are now in line with turrets. Turrets (especially BS sized) will do no damage at all when a ship is moving fast enough also. This has always been the case. You've pretty much always been able to speed tank a turret BS with frigs but that used to not work with a cruise raven. Thats now been fixed.
If you expect to fight small ships bring a small ship. If want to kill a BS with a torp ship bring a Target Painter. Its as simple as that. The problem isn't the missiles its the failure to properly fit. Now that missiles have tracking issues like other guns you need to start using mods that actually help you.
This!
Caldari just got their I win button taken away. Honestly I still see CNR able to deal massive dps in line with turrets. You didn't get shafted, you got balanced and now you just have to use a little strategy.
17 page of post and still no idea what ppl are talkin about right?
Caldari does not whining about not beeing able to hit small ships, frigs which are moving fast.. That would be wrong.
But Caldari is whining about not beeing able to do normal damage to a ship of SAME SIZE unless it is webbed to hell and target painted ( which caldari doesnt have free med slots for )..
Easy exemple : BS vs BS and NOT bs vs frig.
Nobody expect to hit max dmg to a frig with torps nor with cruise missiles commin from a raven. Dont be stupid...
You cannot hit ships of same size with missiles even he s moving without using speed modules its as simple as that.. Is that heappening with turrets as well ?(ah no offcorse, atleast you can affort web + scram + speed mods on meds etc.. ) Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Gidgiddonah
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Posted - 2008.12.19 04:26:00 -
[512]
Exactly. The explosion velocity stuff is out of line. Look at rockets for example. They do full damage to.. what? A turtle? A glacier? A planet? It's stupid.
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Gidgiddonah
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Posted - 2008.12.19 04:39:00 -
[513]
Hey guys... Is it too late to change my mind? I've thought about this a lot, and.. well.. I have to admit, I think I have been wrong, and I need to apologize. I'm a Caldari character, and have trained missiles exclusively. (22,612 skillpoints in Gunnery, almost no more than I was born with)
For the most part, I'm sure everyone can agree (in this thread especially) that missiles were in dire need of a change. I'm sure you were as relieved as I was that CCP implemented some of these badly needed adjustments in the Quantum Rise deployment. I'm sure you also share my newfound disappointment that CCP didn't take things as far as they probably should have.
The various types of turrets, especially Blasters, have fallen into disuse. You can fly around any system for hours and not see any hybrids, lasers or autocannons fitted. Even ships which specifically have a turret bonus have been re-purposed for missiles by using either rigs or implants. Before Quantum Rise, lasers and railguns had basically faded away into a novelty for NPCs to use against you in PvE. (to no effect obviously, since you are using missiles you can just insta-pop any NPCs) The only reason turrets retain their market value is for their Zydrine content.
And look at the Crane. With its missile slot, it had basically become a 1-stop shop. It has a huge cargo bay, can move around while cloaked, is basically impossible to warp scramble, and can kill anything because it has a missile launcher. I can't count the number of times I've flown into a fleet fight, and seen a Crane in there kicking tail (and salvaging at the same time). I warp out immediately, I don't want to be the unfortunate soul in the crosshairs of a missle-spewing Crane.
It makes sense then that Quantum Rise was a step in the right direction. But we need more. To that end, I hope we can all look forward to some new changes coming in the next few patches:
- Heavy missiles will see a further reduction in explosion velocity. Heavies Missiles (which went from 750m/s to 300m/s in the last patch) will be reduced to 0.0000001m/s. The Explosion Radius for will be increased to 9999999m. These changes will make these missile types more suited to their intended role of attacking glaciers, tectonic plates, and medium-sized planets.
- Cruise missiles will now have an explosion velocity of -50m/s. That is, they will only deal damage to targets which are moving backwards. If you fire on a target which has forward velocity, it will deal negative damage. Firing a "repair missile" on an NPC or Outlaw will result in CONCORD intervention and the destruction of your ship.
- Hybrid turrets and Lasers will now be able to target and destroy incoming missiles. Blasters can destroy any missile within its optimal range, whether targetted or not. (similar to a smartbomb)
- All missile launchers will now use capacitor power when activated.
- FoF (Friend or Foe) missiles will be replaced by "j/k LoL" Missiles, which have the same appearance as a real missile, but disappear in a jetcan-style "Poof" right before reaching their target. They will also introduce "ZOMG" targetting, where the least hostile ship / NPC / large collidable object will be targeted first.
- Gallente ships can now equip Anti-Missile Drones. Defender Drones will attempt to shoot down an inbound missile in the conventional way. Bodyguard Drones will intercept a missile by placing themselves directly in its flight path.
- All races (except Caldari) will have a new ability to equip Suicide Drones, which fly into a target and explode. These drones will be about 0.01m3 in size and move at 3750m/s. They will never miss as long as they can physically reach their target.
I'm confident that this will address all existing issues, and satisfy the vast majority of players. Here's looking forward to our great and prosperous future.
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Dipluz
Notorious Legion Bring Out Ya Dead
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Posted - 2008.12.19 13:13:00 -
[514]
/signed Missile nerf has made Caldari really useless comparison to other races!
-------------------------------------------------
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NeoVictus
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Posted - 2008.12.20 10:08:00 -
[515]
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Larry Lorwonski
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Posted - 2008.12.20 21:53:00 -
[516]
Like that other guy is saying the nerf idea is okay, but the numbers are off. I would like to see missiles still being used in the game in the future so I support.
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Random Incarnate
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2008.12.22 14:13:00 -
[517]
Edited by: Random Incarnate on 22/12/2008 14:15:33 I haven't read the entire thread, so this may or may not have been stated. Missiles have not been nerfed as much as you think.
Explosion velocity now matters less. The mechanics have changed completely, there's a thread with all the maths on it that talks about this.
What matters now is the combination of speed and sig radius. If the sig radius is too high, the velocity bonus won't help with damage tanking much. To cruise missiles, yes, this may mean that you do less damage to a moving target. Maybe that part needs to be changed. However, what you're missing is the "Damage Reduction Factor". You're whining about how explosion velocity has been nerfed, but completely ignoring the fact that there's a new stat to consider. Maybe you passed it off as insignificant, but, I assure you, it means a hell of a lot.
What does this "nerf" mean?
A Flycatcher with T2 precisions can now damage an inty! It can actually fulfill its secondary role! Imagine that! And, believe it or not, the damage is actually respectable! If the inty turns on the MWD, it can't go fast enough anymore, unless it's incredibly expensive, to outrun the damage. If it can go over 8k.s-1, then yeah, it'll probably just outrun the missile, but when it gets hit by the missile, the damage will probably only be about half the full potential. This is much better than before, where you simply couldn't get the explosion velocity high enough to do respectable damage to anything that moved over 3-4k.s-1.
So yeah, maybe your Ravens got nerfed. Whine about that, please. But don't bring it back to what it was. A lot of ships have benefited from this. You'll either have to adapt to the changes (and mothball your Raven, or have fun with new fitting ideas), or you can continue to petition, if you really think it's that broken. But remember, EVE is an MMO, keyword being Multiplayer.
Yes, I fly Caldari. Yes, I have a Raven. Yes, I have also invested a decent amount of SP into missiles, and plan to invest more.
Get all the facts before calling the end of the world, please.
P.S. Want to repeat again that this is actually a boost, not a nerf. Just thought I'd restate that. Look beyond the explosion velocity.
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Alex Wise
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Posted - 2008.12.23 16:40:00 -
[518]
support again
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Manakid Tetsu
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Posted - 2008.12.27 23:43:00 -
[519]
There is something wrong when a Cruiser can speed tank T2 Torpedos at 0kms without cracking a sweat, 1 min yeah I can believe that, 5mins okay, 20 mins should be totally impossible.
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Sir Ibex
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Posted - 2008.12.28 22:11:00 -
[520]
Signed and supported. CCP, now is NOT the time to make your customers angry. You already lost many people when you removed 30 days TCs... Then you lost some more after ghost training removal. I guess you guys simply don't want money!
It's all good and well that we are getting new game features and addons - but this shouldn't be at the expense of making the current game experience worse! Please decide what you want to do with EVE.. Is it a PvP ONLY game?! Then please state it so, so that mission runners can close their accounts, and stop wasting their time. If that is not the case, please stop making life miserable for mission runners. Doing missions was already nothing but annoying GRINDING, which barely brought enough money to finance other activities in EVE. After the missile nerf, missioning is simply not worth it anymore considering the huge time investment. If you care about balancing PvP so much, you can do something smart here... How about BOOSTING the missiles WHILE in a mission, but nerfing them back anywhere outside of mission?
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Ignition SemperFi
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2008.12.29 16:09:00 -
[521]
not too sure bout the boost while in mission but not PVP aspect. no other part of the game works that way. what about PVP that happens inside mission/deadspace areas.
sad that CCP just tosses some of the legit missile complaints under the rug because some mission runners want hit every type of ship for full damage weapon ---- People Say Im paranoid because I have a gun, I say I dont have to be paranoid because I have a gun.
Quote:
They already did introduce a counter to missiles, it's called Quantum Rise
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Ariad Valens
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Posted - 2008.12.30 15:10:00 -
[522]
Signed
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Melodic Metal
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Posted - 2008.12.30 18:31:00 -
[523]
/signed
Without painters Torps are useless. and even then i get a damage penalty cause of the base speed. All my skillpoints are in Torpedoes and heavy missiles, now I'm re-skilling for a railrokh.
this missile nerf has gone to far, nerfing is not a problem but this is just ridiculous. |
Efrim Black
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Posted - 2008.12.30 20:37:00 -
[524]
Originally by: Random Incarnate [
/Thread.
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Ork Hepaj
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Posted - 2008.12.31 08:56:00 -
[525]
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KTOZ
Caldari D00M.
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Posted - 2008.12.31 15:27:00 -
[526]
Edited by: KTOZ on 31/12/2008 15:28:03
Originally by: Random Incarnate Edited by: Random Incarnate on 22/12/2008 14:15:33 I haven't read the entire thread, so this may or may not have been stated. Missiles have not been nerfed as much as you think.
Explosion velocity now matters less. The mechanics have changed completely, there's a thread with all the maths on it that talks about this.
What matters now is the combination of speed and sig radius. If the sig radius is too high, the velocity bonus won't help with damage tanking much. To cruise missiles, yes, this may mean that you do less damage to a moving target. Maybe that part needs to be changed. However, what you're missing is the "Damage Reduction Factor". You're whining about how explosion velocity has been nerfed, but completely ignoring the fact that there's a new stat to consider. Maybe you passed it off as insignificant, but, I assure you, it means a hell of a lot.
What does this "nerf" mean?
A Flycatcher with T2 precisions can now damage an inty! It can actually fulfill its secondary role! Imagine that! And, believe it or not, the damage is actually respectable! If the inty turns on the MWD, it can't go fast enough anymore, unless it's incredibly expensive, to outrun the damage. If it can go over 8k.s-1, then yeah, it'll probably just outrun the missile, but when it gets hit by the missile, the damage will probably only be about half the full potential. This is much better than before, where you simply couldn't get the explosion velocity high enough to do respectable damage to anything that moved over 3-4k.s-1.
So yeah, maybe your Ravens got nerfed. Whine about that, please. But don't bring it back to what it was. A lot of ships have benefited from this. You'll either have to adapt to the changes (and mothball your Raven, or have fun with new fitting ideas), or you can continue to petition, if you really think it's that broken. But remember, EVE is an MMO, keyword being Multiplayer.
Yes, I fly Caldari. Yes, I have a Raven. Yes, I have also invested a decent amount of SP into missiles, and plan to invest more.
Get all the facts before calling the end of the world, please.
P.S. Want to repeat again that this is actually a boost, not a nerf. Just thought I'd restate that. Look beyond the explosion velocity.
The problem wasnt/isnt a flycatcher firing on an inty but a bs firing on a moving bs or a bc firing on a moving bc etc
İ can understand every argument exept the fact that, despite i got caldari bs 5 + 13mil sp on missiles, i hit another bs (even without a speed mod), ridiculously low dmg while his guns melting my ship, ofcorse dont forget that every race exept caldari can afford speed mods/web/point and cap or another module on med slots at same time.
Same goes for a bc or whatever ship class as soon as both sides have the same ship class.
No 1 wants missiles to be the best weapons but just as powerfull as the other weapons in the game nothing less nothing more..
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Random Incarnate
Australia and New Zealand Eve Corp FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2009.01.01 13:12:00 -
[527]
Originally by: KTOZ Edited by: KTOZ on 31/12/2008 15:28:03
Originally by: Random Incarnate Edited by: Random Incarnate on 22/12/2008 14:15:33 I haven't read the entire thread, so this may or may not have been stated. Missiles have not been nerfed as much as you think.
Explosion velocity now matters less. The mechanics have changed completely, there's a thread with all the maths on it that talks about this.
What matters now is the combination of speed and sig radius. If the sig radius is too high, the velocity bonus won't help with damage tanking much. To cruise missiles, yes, this may mean that you do less damage to a moving target. Maybe that part needs to be changed. However, what you're missing is the "Damage Reduction Factor". You're whining about how explosion velocity has been nerfed, but completely ignoring the fact that there's a new stat to consider. Maybe you passed it off as insignificant, but, I assure you, it means a hell of a lot.
What does this "nerf" mean?
A Flycatcher with T2 precisions can now damage an inty! It can actually fulfill its secondary role! Imagine that! And, believe it or not, the damage is actually respectable! If the inty turns on the MWD, it can't go fast enough anymore, unless it's incredibly expensive, to outrun the damage. If it can go over 8k.s-1, then yeah, it'll probably just outrun the missile, but when it gets hit by the missile, the damage will probably only be about half the full potential. This is much better than before, where you simply couldn't get the explosion velocity high enough to do respectable damage to anything that moved over 3-4k.s-1.
So yeah, maybe your Ravens got nerfed. Whine about that, please. But don't bring it back to what it was. A lot of ships have benefited from this. You'll either have to adapt to the changes (and mothball your Raven, or have fun with new fitting ideas), or you can continue to petition, if you really think it's that broken. But remember, EVE is an MMO, keyword being Multiplayer.
Yes, I fly Caldari. Yes, I have a Raven. Yes, I have also invested a decent amount of SP into missiles, and plan to invest more.
Get all the facts before calling the end of the world, please.
P.S. Want to repeat again that this is actually a boost, not a nerf. Just thought I'd restate that. Look beyond the explosion velocity.
The problem wasnt/isnt a flycatcher firing on an inty but a bs firing on a moving bs or a bc firing on a moving bc etc
İ can understand every argument exept the fact that, despite i got caldari bs 5 + 13mil sp on missiles, i hit another bs (even without a speed mod), ridiculously low dmg while his guns melting my ship, ofcorse dont forget that every race exept caldari can afford speed mods/web/point and cap or another module on med slots at same time.
Same goes for a bc or whatever ship class as soon as both sides have the same ship class.
No 1 wants missiles to be the best weapons but just as powerfull as the other weapons in the game nothing less nothing more..
I don't see how it's possibly a problem when it comes to anything but BS vs BS. Don't expect to use Rage/Fury against anything of the same size class, by the way.
If you're going to hit some in a BS, get someone in to tackle. If you're in a BS without support, you're either missioning/ratting/plexing and you were gonna die if you got jumped, or you're attempting to solo in a Caldari ship of all things, and you deserve to die anyway.
1v1 BS combat doesn't happen, mmkay?
If you want to use torps, you want that target to be double webbed and painted, which would happen in a gang. If you want to use cruise, you at least want someone else tackling, since you should be far off lobbing missiles.
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KTOZ
Caldari D00M.
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Posted - 2009.01.02 15:02:00 -
[528]
Originally by: Random Incarnate
you're attempting to solo in a Caldari ship of all things, and you deserve to die anyway.
Well you seem to understand the essential nature of the problem
So now if you can explain also why in the world you would choose caldari and spend 54 mil sp to train its skills, i can feel better and find a reason to continue to play
PS: 5 years ago when i started to play, caldari was a decent race to train, but so much changes for years fcked it up obviously.. Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Defaultkill
Caldari Insurrection Inc
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Posted - 2009.01.02 22:55:00 -
[529]
Edited by: Defaultkill on 02/01/2009 22:56:21 signed..... Dont make caldari more pathetic.... wasted my training time also.. now they got me for another 6 months to train turrets.... *sniff sniff* I smell something... The bs ccp is putting out... Hey they r only wanting to make money.... And I'm sure they have a master fckup plan for turrets too lol.. nullIn the corner with a batnull |
Al Drevika
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Posted - 2009.01.03 05:28:00 -
[530]
I understand the need to have made the change for PVP, but it has disrupted mission running. There has to be a happy medium somewhere.
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Grendelsbane
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Posted - 2009.01.05 17:00:00 -
[531]
Edited by: Grendelsbane on 05/01/2009 17:01:14 The positive aspects of the missile changes - as noted, Flycatchers vs. intys, etc. - are all well and good, but overall these missile changes simply don't work.
As Drake pilot (yes, I fly it in PvP), I'm used to having to choose either DPS and a sucky tank or a good tank and possibly a scram with crappy DPS. Fine. But now literally ANY other Battlecruiser can speed tank my heavy launchers without even needing to use an afterburner.
Some of the missile boats simply Do Not Work. Period. And before you all launch into "cry more noob, bring a target painter and web", name me ANY other battlecruiser that can't put out effective DPS against another BC sized ship going at STOCK velocity without having to use up 2 tanking slots on cap-burning modules.
You can't.
If missiles were overpowered or unfair in some situations, there are plenty of other imaginative solutions they could have used... hell Defenders are still useless because of their childish design and implementation, how about working on those?
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Ancy Denaries
Caldari Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2009.01.05 19:17:00 -
[532]
Nope. Doesn't get my vote. Adapt....and so on.
Balance is important, but you will always adapt to changing circumstances and you don't whine about stuff you can't change. |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.01.06 08:56:00 -
[533]
Originally by: Grendelsbane But now literally ANY other Battlecruiser can speed tank my heavy launchers without even needing to use an afterburner.
No, they can't. You don't have the faintest idea what you're talking about.
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CozmoKramer
Capital Shipyard
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Posted - 2009.01.06 17:08:00 -
[534]
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Neesa Corrinne
Ore Mongers
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Posted - 2009.01.06 17:22:00 -
[535]
Missiles are not useless, Amarr is just OP atm because they got a tracking bonus during Empyrean age, and then CCP slowed everything down in QR, which means they can hit a gnat flying circles with artillery now.
Once laser tracking is fixed, all will be good again.
Do not support. ---------------------------------
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chatgris
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Posted - 2009.01.08 13:16:00 -
[536]
I did support this earlier, and after some time I think I was wrong. Small ships actually stand a chance now. Not really being a missile user myself I also don't think I have the experience to sign as I did. Other issues such as missiles hitting same sized targets, I have minimal experience in and should leave the debate to those that are knowledgable.
Sign removed.
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Sasha Nakajima
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Posted - 2009.01.08 17:59:00 -
[537]
[generic comment of support]
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Sedious Bloke
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Posted - 2009.01.10 02:58:00 -
[538]
Edited by: Sedious Bloke on 10/01/2009 03:01:09 I don't fly caldari because their ships look like ass but i feel sorry for you guys :(
They were hella broken before and op but thanks to the "adjust lightly with hammer" approach they are hella broken the other way :/ Of course so are a few core game mechanics but at least those screw everyone equally |
Varelen
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Posted - 2009.01.10 16:23:00 -
[539]
Missiles were overnerfed. |
thesonarnet
0ccam's Razor UNLeashed Legion
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Posted - 2009.01.11 10:50:00 -
[540]
.
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PyrathLight
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Posted - 2009.01.16 03:05:00 -
[541]
Supported. Severely hurts this poor carebear's missioning. |
Ted Grayham
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Posted - 2009.01.16 04:12:00 -
[542]
Signed. Missiles exploding at 70m/s doesn't make any sense.
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dasuri
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Posted - 2009.01.16 05:04:00 -
[543]
/supported
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Xenia Kinomi
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Posted - 2009.01.18 17:12:00 -
[544]
Edited by: Xenia Kinomi on 18/01/2009 17:21:40
Originally by: Mikhale Romanov
Do you know how the metric system works? KM/H is the same as M/S.
That might be the silliest thing I've ever seen in a flame thread. Check your facts.
I too, sign this. It's wrong.
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XoPhyte
Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2009.01.18 17:37:00 -
[545]
Edited by: XoPhyte on 18/01/2009 17:41:45 Supported. Horrible change. I love seeing 6 cruise missiles from a raven with BS V do crap all damage to another battleship
I really wish I could be in those CCP meetings tbh. Lets come up with a way to calculate that cruise missiles can do 10% of the damage they previously did to an NPC battleship and lets see the forums erupt!
Sigh.
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XoPhyte
Gallente Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2009.01.18 18:12:00 -
[546]
Originally by: Grann Thefauto Edited by: Grann Thefauto on 16/12/2008 00:29:09 This is silly. Missiles are now in line with turrets. Turrets (especially BS sized) will do no damage at all when a ship is moving fast enough also.
Not so. Turrets were calculated against TRANSVERSAL speed. Therefore if a ship was speeding towards you, you would hit it for full damage in a turret boat. With missiles that battleship that is 40km from you and MWD'ing straight towards you? You can't hit him for any damage. Doesn't that sound stupid? The new missile calculates against only speed (not transversal). Why should a battleship be able to speed tank missiles that easily, regardless if hes going straight towards you or not.
Against a turret boat, you always had to watch your transversal. Now against a missle boat, it doesn't matter. Close, far, direction. Could care less, just go somewhat fast and hes screwed.
I don't care that there is a speed penalty, it just seems that it is to much out of line. If there is going to be a "tracking penalty" now just as there are with turrets, then make missiles almost instantly hit like turrets.
I don't fly missile boats for PVP (only ratting, and I guess that will now change). But honestly. Now there are ships that take forever to hit a target and when they finally do, don't hit it for any damage? Wow, sounds like a great ship
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Alexander Knott
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.01.18 23:27:00 -
[547]
Missiles have been ridiculously terrible ever since QR. They retain all their previous disadvantages with travel time and now they perform really badly on battleships that are coasting after deactivating their MWDs. |
Aggememnon
Insurrection Inc
|
Posted - 2009.01.19 11:01:00 -
[548]
/signed |
TRLRBOY
|
Posted - 2009.01.23 03:49:00 -
[549]
This nerf is completely bull****. my t2's hit for far less than my t1's. training for t2 cruise is now a complete waste of time. by the time ccp gets done with their nerfing ******edness, my t2 cruise will hit softer than an all out assault with miner II's. this nerf is by far the most ridiculous thing i have ever seen and is completely unjustified. the t2's were great to mission with, but are now completely useless. who knows, when they're done nerfing caldari pilots, i will probably be able to be taken out by an ibis with a civilian gatling gun. IDIOTS.
/signed
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Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2009.01.23 09:06:00 -
[550]
I don't really support the OP, but given that there's definitely a missile problem and that no other realisitic alternatives appear to be available, /signed.
T2 missiles are to this day still broken, and are the only form of T2 ammunition that never gets used - even more so now faction missiles are so common. Changes to T2 missiles and perhaps the modification of ballistic control systems to increase explosion radius/velocity would resolve this problem without breaking anything else.
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Mr LaboratoryRat
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Posted - 2009.01.23 11:27:00 -
[551]
i wish i could switch damage type of missile on each target with my rails (gallente)
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Camilo Cienfuegos
Earned In Blood
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Posted - 2009.01.23 11:36:00 -
[552]
Quote: i wish i could switch damage type of missile on each target with my rails (gallente)
I wish missiles instantly hit their target, and that I could fit a new damage type as quickly as Lasers can change crystals.
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Stalina
Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad
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Posted - 2009.01.23 12:10:00 -
[553]
Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos
Quote: i wish i could switch damage type of missile on each target with my rails (gallente)
I wish missiles instantly hit their target, and that I could fit a new damage type as quickly as Lasers can change crystals.
...and have the optimal range of autocannons.
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Efrim Black
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.01.23 17:10:00 -
[554]
Originally by: Stalina
Originally by: Camilo Cienfuegos
Quote: i wish i could switch damage type of missile on each target with my rails (gallente)
I wish missiles instantly hit their target, and that I could fit a new damage type as quickly as Lasers can change crystals.
...and have the optimal range of autocannons.
and ignore all damage resistances. |
Tivookz
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.01.25 12:43:00 -
[555]
Edited by: Tivookz on 25/01/2009 12:43:49 Signed! Give us our missiles back! |
Ignition SemperFi
Private Nuisance
|
Posted - 2009.01.25 20:51:00 -
[556]
If we are going to have tracking problems similar to that of guns... i think a bit more of a DMG boost is in order. Right now missiles are subpar in almost every way to laser and hybrid weapon systems in each comparitive class shooting at the same size ship.
---- People Say Im paranoid because I have a gun, I say I dont have to be paranoid because I have a gun.
Quote:
They already did introduce a counter to missiles, it's called Quantum Rise
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Kaya Divine
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Posted - 2009.01.26 04:11:00 -
[557]
Missiles are very gimped atm.
Support.
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Masuke
|
Posted - 2009.01.26 12:18:00 -
[558]
I support this petition... |
Neovenator
|
Posted - 2009.01.26 14:56:00 -
[559]
signed.
for what did i spend monthes in skilling all that missile stuff when i now make the same damage like i did, before i started skilling all that stuff?
No 90D GTC's, Missile nerf, no Ghosttraining. What's next?
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Red Raider
Caldari Airbourne Demons DeMoN's N AnGeL's
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Posted - 2009.01.27 00:14:00 -
[560]
I haven't fired a missile since they stopped doing AoE and they took heavy's off of kestrels.
This still sucks though.
Why don't we just make all the ships Amarr and call it a day. It's only been overpowered FOREVER and yet they do nothing if not boost their ships.
Thanks CCP for making me train Amarr to be able to reasonably compete with other players in both PVP and PVE. |
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Galia Bonaventure
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Posted - 2009.01.27 03:06:00 -
[561]
Support
I would be fine with the current damage reduction mechanics, if all missiles did 33% more base DPS than current, so if you can web down and paint your target up, you can devastate them, but otherwise you will be fairing less than a turret user. |
Ignition SemperFi
Private Nuisance
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Posted - 2009.01.31 01:05:00 -
[562]
so what is it going to take to get some CSM support on this issue??? |
Geaux Tiger
Tigris Cleptum Gaza
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Posted - 2009.02.01 00:42:00 -
[563]
support this proposal |
Soporo
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.02.01 22:48:00 -
[564]
Support. It's not just missiles either. It's now having to fit a painter and losing yet another midslot from our tank. Use rigs for that you say? Hell, we have to use those for Rigo and Flares...
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Alex Logan
Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2009.02.02 06:05:00 -
[565]
Give love back to the missiles!
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Kalia Masaer
Rosa Castellum
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Posted - 2009.02.04 00:03:00 -
[566]
There is definantly an issue with missiles at the moment but they still do hit everytime. I could see setting their explosion velocity to the average speed of their intended target class. I.e. up cruise missile 69m/s explosion velocity to 101m/s the average speed of all battle ships without speed mods. That would be a good test to start with to see if that it brought the issue under control.
I don't know if there are any skills or implants that increase explosion velocity which would make them overly effective smaller ships.
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Gun Hog
Caldari Ardent Industrial Arcane Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.04 06:41:00 -
[567]
Please give me my CNR its power back!
/signed |
Alex Kinley
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Posted - 2009.02.05 08:27:00 -
[568]
-Signed
Kytanos
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Liamn
|
Posted - 2009.02.08 23:05:00 -
[569]
he he Was doing lvl 4 in Drake with heavey launchers. Bought a Raven and fitted cruise launchers. I think I'm going back to the Drake, even though it might take twice as long. I'm still playing with fitting the Raven; so if anyone knows of a good fit post-nerf that has worked out for you against 6+ webbing / jamming frigates, please share.
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Lord WarATron
Black Nova Corp KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.02.08 23:18:00 -
[570]
Missiles need to be reviewed. I do not think anybody seriously can agree that missiles are currently balanced in their current format.
We do not want a return of the Torps instapoping a intercepter. What is talked about is reasonable damage vs reasonable shipsizes. --
Billion Isk Mission |
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hyesp24
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Posted - 2009.02.11 01:54:00 -
[571]
signed.
caldari are now the joke race. not only do caldari ships have to rely on mid slots for tanking (reduces tackling ability) but if they decide to tackle (as in web/scram so ur missiles can actually do some damage) they loose their tanking ability.
the missile nerf went way toooooooooo far. they should at least reverse it partially.
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hyesp24
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Posted - 2009.02.11 01:54:00 -
[572]
oops. forgot to check support. so here i go. |
chrisss0r
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Posted - 2009.02.11 03:44:00 -
[573]
Originally by: Harkonin Let's do the same to turrets that u have done to missiles.
If u try to hit a ship that is smaller than the ammunition that it's supposed to be required to kill it, u should reduce the damage in the same way than missiles are suffering now. Using a Large turret vs a ceptor should mean doing 25/400 = 1/16 of damage. Using a Medium turret vs a ceptor should mean 25/125 = 1/5 of damage. Using a small turret vs a ceptor 25/40 = 5/8 of damage. Let's see what happends then. This is totally ridiculous to think that this nerf means balance. This means de destruction of missiles.
actually i would fall on my knees and kiss ccps feet if my large guns could hit a ceptor with 1/16 of their dps ;D |
Motaka
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Posted - 2009.02.11 04:02:00 -
[574]
Signed.
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Rohkan Lo'Tan
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Posted - 2009.02.11 05:42:00 -
[575]
/signed
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retro mike
|
Posted - 2009.02.11 10:05:00 -
[576]
signed
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chatgris
|
Posted - 2009.02.11 17:26:00 -
[577]
Edited by: chatgris on 11/02/2009 17:27:17
Originally by: chrisss0r
Originally by: Harkonin Let's do the same to turrets that u have done to missiles.
If u try to hit a ship that is smaller than the ammunition that it's supposed to be required to kill it, u should reduce the damage in the same way than missiles are suffering now. Using a Large turret vs a ceptor should mean doing 25/400 = 1/16 of damage. Using a Medium turret vs a ceptor should mean 25/125 = 1/5 of damage. Using a small turret vs a ceptor 25/40 = 5/8 of damage. Let's see what happends then. This is totally ridiculous to think that this nerf means balance. This means de destruction of missiles.
actually i would fall on my knees and kiss ccps feet if my large guns could hit a ceptor with 1/16 of their dps ;D
THIS ^^
(That said however, I like things the way they were. Missiles vs Turrets actually provide for some diversity in the game mechanics. Even if my large turrets do 0% damage to interceptor.)
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2009.02.11 18:20:00 -
[578]
Edited by: James Lyrus on 11/02/2009 18:19:39 Would like to see cruise missiles and torps generally hitting BS for full damage. Would like to see HAMs/Heavys hitting for mostly full damage against cruiser targets. Would like to see rockets and standards do the same.
Would also like to see HAMs/Rockets be worth using compared to their long range counterparts - a blaster does 60% more DPS than a railgun. A HAM does 25% more DPS than a HML. -- 249km locking? |
Lorzion
Minmatar IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.02.12 04:51:00 -
[579]
Oh Noes!!!! My cit torps on my naglfar won't hit a frigate going 5k a sec. WTF CCP!!!!!!!! On another note my Nano Mach I spent 3 Bil on only goes like 1.8k with snakes!
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Marlona Sky
Caldari Astroglide X
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Posted - 2009.02.12 08:36:00 -
[580]
Get over it already.
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Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.12 11:02:00 -
[581]
Originally by: Lorzion Oh Noes!!!! My cit torps on my naglfar won't hit a frigate going 5k a sec. WTF CCP!!!!!!!! On another note my Nano Mach I spent 3 Bil on only goes like 1.8k with snakes!
Looks like you fail in pvp then ,and in trolling too.
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retro mike
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Posted - 2009.02.13 10:46:00 -
[582]
any news on this one?
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Stalina
Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad
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Posted - 2009.02.13 14:25:00 -
[583]
Originally by: retro mike any news on this one?
Nah it's not broken anyway. _________________________________
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Kaidelong Einfachs
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Posted - 2009.02.16 12:10:00 -
[584]
Edited by: Kaidelong Einfachs on 16/02/2009 12:18:41 When I first joined people were telling me that if I wanted to do any sort of pvp I'd have to cross train away from Caldari because missiles are useless.
I cross-trained Gallente and I am mostly happy with it in spite of the weaknesses of the race. I did not see a reason to specialize in anything caldari or missile related (ECM is kinda cool though, I have a scorp in hanger).
What was the point of missiles? Well, they were an inferior but (usually) usable projectile turret when I first joined up, and torpedoes had a long range for a short range turrets, although their damage wasn't really up to par. Now they don't really seem to have one at all. Turret ships are generally better in some way against stationary targets anyway (with the exception of large autocannons), and much better against moving ones. If you want to make missiles only good against stationary targets, can't they at least be better at destroying stationary targets than turrets are?
It doesn't even make sense for PvE really; you can do better in an Ishtar or Armegeddon than you can in a Raven or Drake with the right skills.
If missiles are not in for a fix, why not just throw in the towel at balancing them and make the Caldari a agile shield-tanked turret race with missiles as their main secondary weapons system, like the minmatar? Minmatar seem to be a little underpowered anyway so it won't break anything, will it?
Hell, if you wanted to nerf them to begin with why not just nerf the missile hardpoints on missile ships so that Ravens were no longer the pwn machines people thought they were because they had split weapons systems?
It's hard to think of anything missiles can do better than turrets. Torpedos will slightly outdamage a mega neutron hardpoint for hardpoint but no ship can fit as many torpedoes as a megathron or hyperion can fit neutrons, and the moment something starts moving torpedoes aren't very effective anymore. Rockets have a really low explosion radius, but their DPS is so terrible they are hardly worth using anyway (range could also maybe use a slight boost so that they can operate outside scram range).
Maybe standard missiles are still ok? Don't know for sure on that much. Citadel Torpedoes?
I'm signing this just because I think there should be a reason (other than ECM) to fly caldari ships. Either make the caldari less reliant on missiles or make it so that missiles can't be outrun by ships larger than the size they were intended to hit, or just do something to make missiles useful.
There are a few promising caldari features (ECM, their shield buffer tanks can be very strong, sensor range, agility modifiers, free low slots etc...) but the fact that they rely on a weapon system that is effectively useless makes them sub-par.
tl;dr: Missiles don't have a point. This hurts the caldari a lot. Either make the caldari a turret race or give missiles some kind of thing to make them not look like really useless turrets.
also signed.
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tubelight
Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.02.16 12:45:00 -
[585]
Like so many other things in this game, it seems that CCP have over-nerfed missiles to the point where at bc/bs size they are essentially useless.
Large missiles were hardly setting the world alight pre-QR so it boggles the mind as to why CCP feel the need to nerf them even further.
Cruise missiles seem very average and torpedos are barely useable other than in bs fleet battles.
The Raven, once considered the best ship on Eve, now lags behind the Megathron, the Armageddon and even the Tempest for DPS output and number of build requests.
This stinks of the fame fate that befell webs, nanos and nos: CCP see something that's too good, then instead of balancing it they just make it awful with no regard given to the players who have spent months or years skilling in those areas.
The objective of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his |
Stalina
Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad
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Posted - 2009.02.16 12:45:00 -
[586]
Originally by: Kaidelong Einfachs
tl;dr: Missiles don't have a point. This hurts the caldari a lot. Either make the caldari a turret race or give missiles some kind of thing to make them not look like really useless turrets.
Moa, Ferox, Rokh, Vulture, Eagle and a few more.
When was the last time you flew said megathron?
_________________________________
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tubelight
Caldari Federation of Freedom Fighters Executive Outcomes
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Posted - 2009.02.16 12:48:00 -
[587]
Also confirming regular missile boats i.e. Cerebus do not seem to have suffered badly, have not flown with Citadel Torps since the newest nerf.
The objective of war is not to die for your country, but to make the other bastard die for his |
Kaidelong Einfachs
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Posted - 2009.02.16 12:59:00 -
[588]
Originally by: Stalina
Originally by: Kaidelong Einfachs
tl;dr: Missiles don't have a point. This hurts the caldari a lot. Either make the caldari a turret race or give missiles some kind of thing to make them not look like really useless turrets.
Moa, Ferox, Rokh, Vulture, Eagle and a few more.
When was the last time you flew said megathron?
I generally prefer being in an Ishtar or Dominix, although those are both expensive for me to risk.
Also the caldari get a few turret ships too. They are for the most part inferior to those of other races, with a few advantages to make them stand out, which is fair enough. But can't their missile ships be primarily turret ships with a little bit of missiles as long as missiles aren't useful? If they're a little bit worse than racial alternatives, but still useful and special, that's fine too.
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Stalina
Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad
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Posted - 2009.02.16 14:15:00 -
[589]
Originally by: Kaidelong Einfachs
Originally by: Stalina
Originally by: Kaidelong Einfachs
tl;dr: Missiles don't have a point. This hurts the caldari a lot. Either make the caldari a turret race or give missiles some kind of thing to make them not look like really useless turrets.
Moa, Ferox, Rokh, Vulture, Eagle and a few more.
When was the last time you flew said megathron?
I generally prefer being in an Ishtar or Dominix, although those are both expensive for me to risk.
Also the caldari get a few turret ships too. They are for the most part inferior to those of other races, with a few advantages to make them stand out, which is fair enough. But can't their missile ships be primarily turret ships with a little bit of missiles as long as missiles aren't useful? If they're a little bit worse than racial alternatives, but still useful and special, that's fine too.
Missiles are useful.
_________________________________
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Kaidelong Einfachs
|
Posted - 2009.02.16 15:34:00 -
[590]
Edited by: Kaidelong Einfachs on 16/02/2009 15:34:37 What are they good for exactly though? What do they do better than say, a pulse laser? And do they do it better enough to make it worth using missiles? I'd like to know.
When I first joined people told me "no". Looking at the missile damage formula that was spaded missiles now do such poor damage they're hardly worth considering.
I have learned the hard way that MWDing your thorax directly toward a mega is a bad idea, but if you do it toward a raven it's not really all that risky now.
Again, what are missiles useful for exactly? And do missile ships exploit any such advantage in a way that distinguishes them from other ships?
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SK Rooster
No Trademark
|
Posted - 2009.02.16 17:28:00 -
[591]
Originally by: Arikanaiz I am start a formal petition to eliminate the missile nerf that has been put into effect with the release of the Queantum Rise Expansion. According to these new "changes" missiles of all sizes are relatively ineffective against ships. Every "class size" that the missiles are designed to target can move faster than the missile's explosion velocity. Therefore, the only way to get your BASE damage back is to target something bigger than your missiles were made to shoot. Even then the speed of the vehicle is still faster than your missile explosion velocity and decreases the damage. So I ask you to sign your name and or comments to this petition to return missiles to thier old already WEAK state. Or to at least change the specs to make missile use viable again.
I am start a formal petition to eliminate the turret nerf that has been put into effect with the release of the Queantum Rise Expansion. According to these new "changes" turrets of all sizes are relatively ineffective against ships. Every "class size" that the turrets are designed to target can move faster than the turret's tracking. Therefore, the only way to get your BASE damage back is to target something bigger than your turrets were made to shoot. Even then the speed of the vehicle is still faster than your turret tracking and decreases the damage. So I ask you to sign your name and or comments to this petition to return turrets to thier old already WEAK state. Or to at least change the specs to make turret use viable again.
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Stalina
Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad
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Posted - 2009.02.16 22:02:00 -
[592]
Edited by: Stalina on 16/02/2009 22:08:32
Originally by: Kaidelong Einfachs
What are they good for exactly though? What do they do better than say, a pulse laser? And do they do it better enough to make it worth using missiles? I'd like to know.
They are good for damageing things. Why should they be better than Pulse Lasers? The still hit things in orbit, now matter if close or wide orbit? No matter if it is a frigate or battleship?
Originally by: Kaidelong Einfachs
When I first joined people told me "no". Looking at the missile damage formula that was spaded missiles now do such poor damage they're hardly worth considering.
Yeh, because people fitting their caldari ships for the biggest tanks and afterwards finding out that there aint much damage left without damage mods are the ones to be asked about what to fly. Also if your damage gets reduced due to the target moving, you just slow your target down, its what turretusers do all the time. While even cruisemissiles from a Raven hurt orbiting Interceptors, turret-bs will never ever hit them once.
On the other hand, its is kinda unfair that anything, from a frigate to battleship, fitted with bonused missiles still hits orbiting ships for damage, when turrets rotate way behind their tracking.
Originally by: Kaidelong Einfachs
I have learned the hard way that MWDing your thorax directly toward a mega is a bad idea, but if you do it toward a raven it's not really all that risky now.
But orbiting the megathron pretty closerange reduces your taken damage to zero, while the raven still hits you, amirite?
Originally by: Kaidelong Einfachs
Again, what are missiles useful for exactly? And do missile ships exploit any such advantage in a way that distinguishes them from other ships?
Again, they do damage. Maybe you dont get "weapons" but the point of them is doing damage to things around. You wont and you should not do full damage to that frigate in that mission with your torpedo or cruisemissile, yet you will hit it, you will hit everything in PvE and PvP, in situations where turrets wont ever hit.
Originally by: Kaidelong Einfachs
PS: Look at all the people whining that minmatar ships need to get rid of their launcher hardpoints in favor of more turrets. Projectile turrets aren't even all that awesome. Right now it seems Amarr is the way to go.
At this point, you are telling that you absolutely have no clue about the other races.
Anyway, replies to this thread : 588, supports: 119. Seems like missiles are way to ok-ish for the majority of eve. _________________________________
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Kaidelong Einfachs
|
Posted - 2009.02.17 03:07:00 -
[593]
Edited by: Kaidelong Einfachs on 17/02/2009 03:07:59
Originally by: Stalina Edited by: Stalina on 16/02/2009 22:08:32
Originally by: Kaidelong Einfachs
What are they good for exactly though? What do they do better than say, a pulse laser? And do they do it better enough to make it worth using missiles? I'd like to know.
They are good for damageing things. Why should they be better than Pulse Lasers? The still hit things in orbit, now matter if close or wide orbit?
They should be better at something and that something should be a reason to use them.
Originally by: Stalina Yeh, because people fitting their caldari ships for the biggest tanks and afterwards finding out that there aint much damage left without damage mods are the ones to be asked about what to fly.
Also if your damage gets reduced due to the target moving, you just slow your target down, its what turretusers do all the time. While even cruisemissiles from a Raven hurt orbiting Interceptors, turret-bs will never ever hit them once.
Cald tank is in mids. Buffer tank can be okay but they generally don't have the capacitor to do anything like a dual MAR. It's not a jaw dropping tank either, and you sacrifice webbers or scrams as well as electronic warfare.
It does have the advantage of opening up low slots for damage and tracking modules. But there are no tracking modules for missiles.
Also cruise missiles will still do neglible damage against an interceptor. Look at the formula and put in some figures, it won't round to one, I was getting DPS figures to the tune of 6.48847E-4. Even though they always hit, they effectively do no damage.
Originally by: Stalina On the other hand, its is kinda unfair that anything, from a frigate to battleship, fitted with bonused missiles still hits orbiting ships for damage, when turrets rotate way behind their tracking.
I think you'll be hard pressed to find ships with missile explosion velocity bonuses. Tracking bonuses on the other hand...
Originally by: Stalina But orbiting the megathron pretty closerange reduces your taken damage to zero, while the raven still hits you, amirite?
It doesn't reduce my damage taken to zero because I have to keep up my traversal which isn't always easy, and if I make one mistake the turret is calculated as if it's doing full damage even with a MWD running.
Originally by: Stalina
Again, they do damage. Maybe you dont get "weapons" but the point of them is doing damage to things around. You wont and you should not do full damage to that frigate in that mission with your torpedo or cruisemissile, yet you will hit it, you will hit everything in PvE and PvP, in situations where turrets wont ever hit.
And in those situations where turrets will never hit, you'll always hit for neglible damage anyway. At with turrets there is an incredibly remote change of hitting for good damage. Also you'll likely be in an armor tanked ship with things like stasis webifiers or tracking computers.
Originally by: Stalina Anyway, replies to this thread : 588, supports: 119. Seems like missiles are way to ok-ish for the majority of eve.
Would you put a bunch of SP into missile launcher spec?
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Stalina
Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad
|
Posted - 2009.02.17 10:23:00 -
[594]
Originally by: Kaidelong Einfachs Stuff
At this point you should re-read everything you wrote. Your writing reflects your low knowledge of ingame-mechanics.
Originally by: Kaidelong Einfachs
Would you put a bunch of SP into missile launcher spec?
I, for one, fly all races. _________________________________
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van Uber
Swedish Aerospace Inc Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.17 13:36:00 -
[595]
Originally by: James Lyrus Edited by: James Lyrus on 11/02/2009 18:19:39 Would like to see cruise missiles and torps generally hitting BS for full damage. Would like to see HAMs/Heavys hitting for mostly full damage against cruiser targets. Would like to see rockets and standards do the same.
Would also like to see HAMs/Rockets be worth using compared to their long range counterparts - a blaster does 60% more DPS than a railgun. A HAM does 25% more DPS than a HML.
An adjustment towards this would be most welcome.
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Raiven Parker
The Athiest Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.02.18 19:08:00 -
[596]
I love it how everyone signs without actually signing. lol
/really signed |
Aethrwolf
|
Posted - 2009.02.18 19:27:00 -
[597]
/signed
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Dav Varan
|
Posted - 2009.02.19 16:33:00 -
[598]
Signed.
Missile were allready the weekest offensive weapon , they didnt need nerfing.
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Kaidelong Einfachs
|
Posted - 2009.02.19 22:23:00 -
[599]
Originally by: Stalina Edited by: Stalina on 17/02/2009 11:03:13
Originally by: Kaidelong Einfachs Stuff
At this point you should re-read everything you wrote. Your writing reflects your low unterstanding of ingame-mechanics and experience.
Originally by: Kaidelong Einfachs
Would you put a bunch of SP into missile launcher spec?
I, for one, fly all races.
They changed the missile damage formula apparently and since I don't know what it is I'm neutral to this thread now.
Running the old one with the new numbers though I was getting figures like 0.0006 DPS for a raven on some targets, which is a rounding error. Turrets start missing to the point they are missing all the time too but it doesn't happen at any range. Missiles do a rounding error all the time, turrets do it if traversal is high.
Interceptors get a MWD sig radius penalty bonus now, that's also part of the reason for the huge drop but it dropped a lot for just about everything I tried since the explosion velocity of missiles are tiny now.
Once we know the new ways in which tracking and explosion velocity is calculated (if someone knows please point me to it) it'll be hard to say, from what I've heard from people their missiles have gotten weaker.
One thing that does stand out is that battleships are able to outrun heavy missile explosions now, a different formula will only affect by how much they can outrun them. A medium pulse laser should not have terrible trouble with tracking against a battleship.
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hupa
Amarr Secret Service
|
Posted - 2009.02.20 17:45:00 -
[600]
i want missiles do to 100% more effective dmg than turrets :p (even when i shoot a torp at a shuttle moving away from me at full speed) :D
but ill settle for equall :/
and this is the worst missile nerf in eve's 6 years :(
fix it............. ..!
I r pwn3r3r th4n y0u. |
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ultima miner
|
Posted - 2009.02.20 20:14:00 -
[601]
I Think its was a good call form ccp to Nerf the missiles finally. As missile where way to overpowered for there always hitting and no minimum range. So the needed to nerve the heavy missiles a little more still now as the can hit inty's reasonable powerfull
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limbus
|
Posted - 2009.02.20 22:24:00 -
[602]
signed
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Legionos McGuiros
|
Posted - 2009.02.20 22:27:00 -
[603]
signed
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Teccmo
Gallente The Scope
|
Posted - 2009.02.21 01:37:00 -
[604]
Signed...I like missiles too. --------------------------------------------------------------------
===There is an eerie calm in space, fragile minds shatter=== |
Lady Octavia
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Posted - 2009.02.24 16:28:00 -
[605]
boost them |
Kytanos Termek
Caldari Darkstorm Command Ethereal Dawn
|
Posted - 2009.02.25 20:56:00 -
[606]
Just please make them hit for full damage agaisnt the proper ship size.
Cruises and torps should hit battleships for full damage. heavy missiles should hit cruisers for full.
I don't care about shooting smaller ships. It's only fair that missiles do no damage against smaller ships. so they are equal in turrets. but please. give us our full damage against the right ships.
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Astra Solare
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Posted - 2009.02.25 21:16:00 -
[607]
Signed. :) Boost missiles.
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K1RTH G3RS3N
Haunted House BROTHERS GRIM.
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Posted - 2009.02.25 23:47:00 -
[608]
signed
ccp should know my caracal with 1invul and 1lse can tank a gank (read 1000torp dps) raven for a looooooooong time. i thought you paid more for battleships because they were "better" not just bigger.
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K1RTH G3RS3N
Haunted House BROTHERS GRIM.
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Posted - 2009.02.25 23:48:00 -
[609]
Originally by: Lorzion Oh Noes!!!! My cit torps on my naglfar won't hit a frigate going 5k a sec. WTF CCP!!!!!!!! On another note my Nano Mach I spent 3 Bil on only goes like 1.8k with snakes!
just change your mwd to an AB and youll tank missiles even better now.
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Agent Unknown
Fist of Eargon
|
Posted - 2009.02.26 02:45:00 -
[610]
I for one approve this message. ----------------------------------- "What can go wrong, will go wrong." |
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Roto Rooter
|
Posted - 2009.02.26 10:12:00 -
[611]
/signed.
Before the missile nerf I used to run a lot of missions, mostly for a change of pace but also to get LPs to buy starbase charters. I graduated to running missions with a pair of CNRs with T2 and faction fittings but never found L4 missions to be pushovers. In fact I lost a few CNRs in L4s after getting trapped, and once in my first (and last) experience in L4 Worlds Collide. But I found the L4s worth running, if not fantastic ISK makers or pushovers.
After the missile nerf I tried again but found it entirely unacceptable. As a result I sold my last CNR and have not run a single mission since. I no longer run missions of any level or type.
Reverse the missile nerf. It was one of the worst changes CCP has made to Eve in the almost 4 years I've been in the game.
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MeyerUdat
Office of Public Relations
|
Posted - 2009.02.26 20:20:00 -
[612]
/Signed
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K1RTH G3RS3N
Haunted House BROTHERS GRIM.
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Posted - 2009.02.28 13:12:00 -
[613]
bumping this back up cause it neeeeds to be seeeen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
this just in, a battleship can "afterburner tank" missiles!
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K1RTH G3RS3N
Haunted House BROTHERS GRIM.
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Posted - 2009.02.28 13:22:00 -
[614]
leave missiles how they are even, boost caldari non-ecm ships in other places.
make a ship heading at you or directly away take full damage.
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2009.02.28 17:07:00 -
[615]
Originally by: K1RTH G3RS3N this just in, a battleship can "afterburner tank" missiles!
This comment sums this thread up, unfortunately.
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Buyerr
|
Posted - 2009.03.01 02:28:00 -
[616]
Edited by: Buyerr on 01/03/2009 02:31:48 i think the main problem is that missiles don't have a module to increase their "tracking" (exp velocity), as turret does (turrets have several, tracking computers, tracking enhances, remote tracking computers) missiles should have the same increasing either exp velocity or missile speed (depending on the script in them). i can't imagine why this isn't already in the game (as if the missiles wasn't prenerfed enough to begin with :P hehe)
edit:typo I declare war on stupidity |
Chapters
Haunted House BROTHERS GRIM.
|
Posted - 2009.03.01 04:21:00 -
[617]
Edited by: Chapters on 01/03/2009 04:21:42 CCP, you have done something really wrong somewhere.... i can only assume and hope it was just a mistake that is already being fixed...
PLEASE we dont care if you change things for the better.. i still support the nano nurf but changing something for no reason is just wrong....
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K1RTH G3RS3N
Haunted House BROTHERS GRIM.
|
Posted - 2009.03.01 05:00:00 -
[618]
caldari ships arent even good for pve anymore
Pledge your support |
Ehranavaar
|
Posted - 2009.03.01 17:23:00 -
[619]
explosion vel really ought to consider which direction the missile is approaching from and if it's hitting from the front half the speed mod really ought to be adding tothe damage not reducing it.
we've had missiles that attack from the front since the late 60's you know.
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Os1r1s
|
Posted - 2009.03.01 20:18:00 -
[620]
Signed
|
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retro mike
|
Posted - 2009.03.02 10:25:00 -
[621]
remember to check the support box if you agree!
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WildTurkey
Haunted House BROTHERS GRIM.
|
Posted - 2009.03.02 20:41:00 -
[622]
Signed !!! --- please fix missiles...
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K1RTH G3RS3N
Haunted House BROTHERS GRIM.
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 00:59:00 -
[623]
page 2!? this unacceptable
Pledge your support |
Eton Favre
Instagate Corp Shroud Of Darkness
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 06:22:00 -
[624]
Definatly think missle stats need to be reviewed.
Stealth bombers and expecially bombs need some extra attention
on bmombs something along the line of explosion radius to 150 would give you a chance at poping a cruiser, Frigs would have to get out of area, BS would be fine. @ 5M isk a pop they should do some damage if people are within blast range. currently your bairly scratching a frigates shields. fleet fights it would encourage people to be spread out and you have the option still of killing the bomber or the bomb. --
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retro mike
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Posted - 2009.03.04 09:58:00 -
[625]
Indeed, Stealth Bombers were crippled by the changes to missiles. They badly need a bonus to explosion velocity and/or an improvement to bombs.
However have you noticed the lack of response from our much vaulted CSMs or CCP?....
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Cpt Cosmic
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 10:56:00 -
[626]
Originally by: retro mike Indeed, Stealth Bombers were crippled by the changes to missiles. They badly need a bonus to explosion velocity and/or an improvement to bombs.
However have you noticed the lack of response from our much vaulted CSMs or CCP?....
funny I pop frigates with two volleys when I use 2 target painters =D
actually the "nerf" was a buff. now I can hit small stuff, before my missiles hit for 0.1 dmg.
if you want hit a speedy ship for full dmg, use webs. now gief me all your caldari carebears stuff plz, you have no use for it this thread proofs it!
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Fasaius
BAD WOLF INC. No Apology
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 11:01:00 -
[627]
Signed...I say hell no to the missile nerf. Being Caldari aint easy these days...sigh
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DeadDuck
Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.04 11:11:00 -
[628]
Signed. The amount of damage a missile does to another ship using a AB is just ridiculous.
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LiBraga
The Blood Pack B.L.A.C.K.
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 11:28:00 -
[629]
Signed. We send pilots back to station to change out of their missile boat for pvp now. I've given up with missiles and use T2 drones now, I can run lvl4 missions in my spare time faster in a ishtar than a missile boat. --------------- What! Caldari have dps now... noooo Aye, T2 HAMs FTW!!!!! |
AKULA UrQuan
Caldari Druuge Crimson Corporation
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 12:06:00 -
[630]
Not signed. Minmatar jocks now have a use for their target painter "Racial ECM" bonus.
A target useing a Afterburner will get smacked fairly hard by missiles if it is target painted and webed. It won't be full damage, but alot more than what a turret ship will be doing against the same target. |
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Mograthi
S.W.A.M.P.
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Posted - 2009.03.04 12:52:00 -
[631]
I will sign this as who doesn't want their weapon of choice buffed, but tbh I saw a minimal decrease in effectiveness of my missiles after the patch. The only ships I have problems hitting for full damage are the ones I should have a problem with, ie frigates with the cruise missiles.
S.W.A.M.P. is Recruiting new members, come join us you know you want to. |
Hopea Solv
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 13:00:00 -
[632]
Agree that the nerf needs to be though about atleast, im sure ccp nerfed it for some reason but i don't think they did a good job with it this time.
I spent a bit of time away from eve, about a year, and wow did it hit me when i did my first mission. Before i left i could bust in and finish a mission 10 times faster than now. |
K1RTH G3RS3N
Haunted House BROTHERS GRIM.
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 13:44:00 -
[633]
Originally by: AKULA UrQuan Not signed. Minmatar jocks now have a use for their target painter "Racial ECM" bonus.
A target useing a Afterburner will get smacked fairly hard by missiles if it is target painted and webed. It won't be full damage, but alot more than what a turret ship will be doing against the same target.
and it will be smacked pretty hard by anything else other then missiles...
remember missile boats 99% of the time need midslots fo tank - thats why people dont like caldari - now they need webs and target painters etc so now they suck 100%
new drake fit
7x hml warp scram, 2x web, 2x target painter, 10mn mwd 4x bcu
^now it has ok dps, and does max damage to cruiser and higher
Pledge your support |
Jamyl TashMurkon
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 13:50:00 -
[634]
/signed
|
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 14:22:00 -
[635]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 04/03/2009 14:24:33
Originally by: K1RTH G3RS3N and it will be smacked pretty hard by anything else other then missiles...
remember missile boats 99% of the time need midslots fo tank - thats why people dont like caldari - now they need webs and target painters etc so now they suck 100%
new drake fit
7x hml warp scram, 2x web, 2x target painter, 10mn mwd 4x bcu
^now it has ok dps, and does max damage to cruiser and higher
Kirth, if you want people to take this thread seriously, you'll need to stop posting complete nonsense, like above. Your comment on AB-fit BS was equally stupid.
How about you look into some realistic in-game situations, identify some specific problems and propose some solutions. I suggest that you start with rockets or Precisions.
|
Zackaryel
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2009.03.04 14:35:00 -
[636]
Edited by: Zackaryel on 04/03/2009 14:35:09
/NOT signed
Missiles were put back in line with other weapon systems, that's all...
You seriously think normal that you could hit target with torps, which is supposed to be a close range weapon, at 70-80kms ? No.
You think normal that missiles in general should hit for 100% damage all the time ? No.
Tracking is to Guns what Explosion velocity is for Missiles.
This wasn't a nerf at all. At least for Torpedoes, it was a hell of a boost. Ok they reduced the range drastically, but they could have left it that way. Istead, they gave it a drastic rate of fire increase to torps.
Sounds like a boost to me. Now you want to hit for more damage ? Fit a Target Painter, and train Signature Focusing to 4/5.
See it like that : Target painters is to missiles what Tracking Comps are for guns.
That's it. My 2 ISK. And yes, I'm Caldari ----------
http://www.youtube.com/user/Zackaryel |
Ash Bringer
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 14:46:00 -
[637]
Missiles are really bad atm. Try hitting a angel BS rat ABing to u in a 0.0 :)
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Sirani
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 15:12:00 -
[638]
Edited by: Sirani on 04/03/2009 15:13:51 /signed
for the love of the Tengu =( ------------------- |
Vall Kor
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 15:34:00 -
[639]
Edited by: Vall Kor on 04/03/2009 15:34:59
Originally by: Zackaryel Edited by: Zackaryel on 04/03/2009 14:35:09
/NOT signed
Missiles were put back in line with other weapon systems, that's all...
You seriously think normal that you could hit target with torps, which is supposed to be a close range weapon, at 70-80kms ? No.
You think normal that missiles in general should hit for 100% damage all the time ? No.
Tracking is to Guns what Explosion velocity is for Missiles.
This wasn't a nerf at all. At least for Torpedoes, it was a hell of a boost. Ok they reduced the range drastically, but they could have left it that way. Istead, they gave it a drastic rate of fire increase to torps.
Sounds like a boost to me. Now you want to hit for more damage ? Fit a Target Painter, and train Signature Focusing to 4/5.
See it like that : Target painters is to missiles what Tracking Comps are for guns.
That's it. My 2 ISK. And yes, I'm Caldari
Incorrect, any movement from the target reduces damage. Even if transversal is 0. Unlike turrets, missiles will do less damage to a target coming right at them. Missiles need a lot work to be balanced, when you couple flight speed with the long cycle times of launchers things just don't balance out.
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Thor Belfry
S.A.S Pandemic Legion
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 15:48:00 -
[640]
/signed Fix missiles please we've invested so much skillpoints in them it's not funny.
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Tocoyon
Amarr Lords Of Kaos Vanguard.
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 15:55:00 -
[641]
/Signed
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Rhodin Lazarith
Gentian Line
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 16:02:00 -
[642]
Signed.
I can't reliably kill anything small in my sacrilege now
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Korrakas
Caldari Legion of Ascension Beyond Ascension
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 16:27:00 -
[643]
/signed
|
AKULA UrQuan
Caldari Druuge Crimson Corporation
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 16:39:00 -
[644]
Originally by: K1RTH G3RS3N and it will be smacked pretty hard by anything else other then missiles...
remember missile boats 99% of the time need midslots fo tank - thats why people dont like caldari - now they need webs and target painters etc so now they suck 100%
new drake fit
7x hml warp scram, 2x web, 2x target painter, 10mn mwd 4x bcu
^now it has ok dps, and does max damage to cruiser and higher
Find an eager minmatar rookie (or any goon) and place him in this. Now missile preformance shoots up a good bit. Teamwork is not hard, or bad....really.
I have a thundering 1.2M SP in missiles and my cruise raven does just fine with a single T2 target painter. Training up the two target painting skills wasn't a total waste afterall. Only took two years for that to happen.
It is true (Outside Khanid ships) to use webs/painters midslot tank may be sacrificed. This is no different than the choise turret users have to make between tank and damage/tracking mods in the lows. Missile ships get to be forced into some of the same hard choises turret ships deal with everyday.
Hell, missile users still have it easy. No goofball tracking to worry about at all. No EWAR module that make said goofball tracking even worse. Nearly all the lows are free for damage modules. From what I can tell, no more doing 0.0 damage to things. Finaly the SP requirement to use a single missile system to the fullest is still far lower than it's turret equivalent. With all this you guys still whine and rage. |
Zhula Guixgrixks
Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Vanguard.
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 16:54:00 -
[645]
Edited by: Zhula Guixgrixks on 04/03/2009 16:55:34 THIS
Originally by: Stalina ... The still hit things in orbit, now matter if close or wide orbit? ....
Also if your damage gets reduced due to the target moving, you just slow your target down, its what turretusers do all the time. While even cruisemissiles from a Raven hurt orbiting Interceptors, turret-bs will never ever hit them once.
.... Anyway, replies to this thread : 640, supports: 144. Seems like missiles are way to ok-ish for the majority of eve.
There are plenty of other points like a working anti-missile weapon. TDs work great against turrets, defenders do not that well against missiles.
Missiles are ok atm.
Originally by: Arikanaiz "This is NOT a thread to ARGUE",
muzzling attempt , huh :)? ??
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chatgris
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 17:28:00 -
[646]
Edited by: chatgris on 04/03/2009 17:30:19 I've had a fair amount of experience lately with missiles being in the gallente militia, and they are by no way underpowered.
Yes, heavy missiles will do pretty low damage to me if I am afterburnering (in a rifter), but guess what? Thorax's do 0 damage to me in that situation.
But the BCU assault missile launcher caracal with LSE? That HURTS. A lot. AB rifter with 200mm plate + repper or a 400mm plate cannot stand up to it for more than 30 seconds, even when I am not webbed. Webbed, I go down pretty hard. (A light ammo type getting bonus's on a cruiser? that's pretty nice)
Those AM's are even better than light neutron or ion turrets, which I can actually get to miss me a lot with a 500m orbit if the other pilot's ship is slow enough, and I am not webbed.
Missiles are not underpowered by any means... I fear caracals a lot more than I fear thoraxes.
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lobster2b
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 19:07:00 -
[647]
Signed..
some numbers from me
cruise launcher explotion velocity = 69 m/s TNT expotion velocity = 6,940 m/s
69 m/s = 248 km/h (avarage max speed on road legal stock cars)
did ccp miss some numbers?
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Eirellle
Decimus Corp
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 19:50:00 -
[648]
/signed --------------------------------------------
|
AngeBlade
Caldari 3vil Industries
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 20:13:00 -
[649]
/signed Make me pretty again. MEH!!! |
iudex
State Protectorate
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 20:48:00 -
[650]
Signed.
Faction Standings: Serpentis +7.81 // Angel Cartel +7.60 // Minmatar Republic -8.68 // Gallente Federation -9.88 |
|
Megan Maynard
Minmatar Out of Order Tenth Legion
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 21:50:00 -
[651]
^*&$%*&^% THAT.
Missiles are fine you carebear scum. Stop, hammer time. |
Zackaryel
Caldari State War Academy
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 21:57:00 -
[652]
Originally by: Vall Kor Incorrect, any movement from the target reduces damage. Even if transversal is 0. Unlike turrets, missiles will do less damage to a target coming right at them. Missiles need a lot work to be balanced, when you couple flight speed with the long cycle times of launchers things just don't balance out.
Well the only fix i'd see is to add some sort of collision damage independant from the usual base/damage-type damage, which wouldn't be related to the known 4 damage types, and would do significant damage to a target having a near-0 transversal but high speed. Kinda. ----------
http://www.youtube.com/user/Zackaryel |
Karl Luckner
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 22:27:00 -
[653]
Fix unguided missiles, and give us target painters, that actually match the range of cruise missiles. And god damn yes, I think it is fair a weapon system with delayed damage offers better range on a ship with range bonus then pulse lasers on a range bonused laser ship.
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Lindsay Logan
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 22:50:00 -
[654]
One way to fix missiles would simply to increase the damage bonus form the Warhead Upgrades skill, it currently only givng a bad % per level for such a high rank skill.
make it 5% per skill elvel, not 2%, and it would all work out.
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Gambit Stryder
|
Posted - 2009.03.04 22:58:00 -
[655]
10/10, would lol again.
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Drakknarr
|
Posted - 2009.03.05 01:07:00 -
[656]
signed
im running into that problem ALOT now that i have my raven =/
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Riga Mortiss
|
Posted - 2009.03.05 02:15:00 -
[657]
Signed! For the love of god.. please give us our missiles back!
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something043
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises Sc0rched Earth
|
Posted - 2009.03.05 02:33:00 -
[658]
signed |
ShadowGod56
|
Posted - 2009.03.05 06:06:00 -
[659]
/signed
i want to use cruise missiles to some effect, my raven is gathering dust
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Tagami Wasp
|
Posted - 2009.03.05 06:51:00 -
[660]
/signed
|
|
retro's sister
|
Posted - 2009.03.05 09:37:00 -
[661]
Edited by: retro''s sister on 05/03/2009 09:36:50 remember to check the box if you agree!
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
|
Posted - 2009.03.05 11:24:00 -
[662]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 05/03/2009 11:25:44
Originally by: retro's sister Edited by: retro''s sister on 05/03/2009 09:36:50 remember to check the box if you agree!
Agree with what? There's nothing to support here, no proposals, no arguments, nothing - it's just a hopelessly vague generic whine thread.
If threads like this are to be taken seriously, you need to identify a problem, prove that it's a problem, then offer solutions. I suggest that you start with Precisions and Rockets. Start a thread on each in Features and Ideas.
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K1RTH G3RS3N
Haunted House BROTHERS GRIM.
|
Posted - 2009.03.05 11:42:00 -
[663]
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 04/03/2009 14:24:33
Originally by: K1RTH G3RS3N and it will be smacked pretty hard by anything else other then missiles...
remember missile boats 99% of the time need midslots fo tank - thats why people dont like caldari - now they need webs and target painters etc so now they suck 100%
new drake fit
7x hml warp scram, 2x web, 2x target painter, 10mn mwd 4x bcu
^now it has ok dps, and does max damage to cruiser and higher
Kirth, if you want people to take this thread seriously, you'll need to stop posting complete nonsense, like above. Your comment on AB-fit BS was equally stupid.
How about you look into some realistic in-game situations, identify some specific problems and propose some solutions. I suggest that you start with rockets or Precisions.
my post is very relative to how missiles are now.
i know about precisions and rockets... hop in you drake or what-ever and bump a battleship and watch your damage drop... the point of the topic still remains... you might not like my sarcasm but well that's how i talk sometimes.
Pledge your support |
K1RTH G3RS3N
Haunted House BROTHERS GRIM.
|
Posted - 2009.03.05 11:54:00 -
[664]
Edited by: K1RTH G3RS3N on 05/03/2009 11:54:45
Originally by: AKULA UrQuan
Originally by: K1RTH G3RS3N and it will be smacked pretty hard by anything else other then missiles...
remember missile boats 99% of the time need midslots fo tank - thats why people dont like caldari - now they need webs and target painters etc so now they suck 100%
new drake fit
7x hml warp scram, 2x web, 2x target painter, 10mn mwd 4x bcu
^now it has ok dps, and does max damage to cruiser and higher
Find an eager minmatar rookie (or any goon) and place him in this. Now missile preformance shoots up a good bit. Teamwork is not hard, or bad....really.
i wouldnt waste a good pilot on this ship
I have a thundering 1.2M SP in missiles and my cruise raven does just fine with a single T2 target painter. Training up the two target painting skills wasn't a total waste afterall. Only took two years for that to happen.
exp velocity is the problem not the sig radius, as already stated by many people even npc battleship rats can AB tank medium missiles
It is true (Outside Khanid ships) to use webs/painters midslot tank may be sacrificed. This is no different than the choise turret users have to make between tank and damage/tracking mods in the lows. Missile ships get to be forced into some of the same hard choises turret ships deal with everyday.
agreed to an extent (and i have always used a web on my drake anyway) but exp velocity and tracking is still different... by means of transversal
Hell, missile users still have it easy. No goofball tracking to worry about at all.
well they do if a ship is moving they have to worry about that
No EWAR module that make said goofball tracking even worse. Nearly all the lows are free for damage modules.
you dont need a module you just need to be moving
From what I can tell, no more doing 0.0 damage to things. Finaly the SP requirement to use a single missile system to the fullest is still far lower than it's turret equivalent. With all this you guys still whine and rage.
im sorry but but youre stating this against ALOT of unhappy customers, i have and so has alot of people here, done hours of testing and have had proper field testing (no not just against corp mates) and where i could live with how missiles are now due to how i use my ships it has nerfed and ruined 90% of the rest.
Pledge your support |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.03.05 13:15:00 -
[665]
Originally by: K1RTH G3RS3N
my post is very relative to how missiles are now.
i know about precisions and rockets... hop in you drake or what-ever and bump a battleship and watch your damage drop...
Kirth, a HAM Drake does full damage with Rage to a webbed ABing Hurricane.
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Dracoknight
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Posted - 2009.03.05 13:21:00 -
[666]
signed!
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Reimu Hakureii
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Posted - 2009.03.05 16:53:00 -
[667]
Signed.
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K1RTH G3RS3N
Haunted House BROTHERS GRIM.
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Posted - 2009.03.05 21:15:00 -
[668]
Edited by: K1RTH G3RS3N on 05/03/2009 21:22:56
Originally by: Gypsio III
Originally by: K1RTH G3RS3N
my post is very relative to how missiles are now.
i know about precisions and rockets... hop in you drake or what-ever and bump a battleship and watch your damage drop...
Kirth, a HAM Drake does full damage with Rage to a webbed ABing Hurricane.
a webbed ABing hurricane is like, a hurricane without an AB unwebbed.
so you agree to me nonconstructive post then... utility is a must for missile boats now... the range advantage of missiles is not so much an advantage anymore cause you have to web people (and dont say have someone in gang in some webbing ship some of us still fly solo). missile boats need low-slots to increase damage to par with guns, now they need midslots for utility, like the other ships often use aswell... but dont you see the problem here? not like caldari was so great for pvp before anyway now it had to be nerfed harder and now its even less great for pvp AND pve... read what everyone is saying. said i should say something constructive not just a sarcastic whine, i did, ill repeat it in a sec........
Pledge your support |
K1RTH G3RS3N
Haunted House BROTHERS GRIM.
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Posted - 2009.03.05 21:39:00 -
[669]
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 04/03/2009 14:24:33
Originally by: K1RTH G3RS3N and it will be smacked pretty hard by anything else other then missiles...
remember missile boats 99% of the time need midslots fo tank - thats why people dont like caldari - now they need webs and target painters etc so now they suck 100%
new drake fit
7x hml warp scram, 2x web, 2x target painter, 10mn mwd 4x bcu
^now it has ok dps, and does max damage to cruiser and higher
Kirth, if you want people to take this thread seriously, you'll need to stop posting complete nonsense, like above. Your comment on AB-fit BS was equally stupid.
How about you look into some realistic in-game situations, identify some specific problems and propose some solutions. I suggest that you start with rockets or Precisions.
here
Pledge your support |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.03.05 23:41:00 -
[670]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 05/03/2009 23:41:38
Originally by: K1RTH G3RS3N rambling drivel
Oh god.
Missile range advantage became stronger because ships got slower and range became more meaningful, plus missile boats are now able to defend that range advantage. Drake has always had to web its target, to stop it just MWDing off and laughing at you. QR was a boost to missile PVP. Remember missiles doing 0.1 damage to anything >4 km/s?
But why am I bothering to write this, you haven't got a clue about game mechanics or missile pvp, as your Drake lolfit shows. I can't believe that you're whining about not always doing 100% damage when this didn't happen before QR anyway.
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Lynx Amurie
Caldari Caldari Innovative Sciences and Engineering
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Posted - 2009.03.06 01:16:00 -
[671]
/signed
No wonder my Vengeance does absolutely no damage to frigates. Rockets have an 85m/sec explosion velocity. That means every single destroyer in a level two mission will take at least an entire load from each launcher (4 Malkuth launchers = 128 missiles )
Player versus asteroid: We win 99.9% of the time! |
K1RTH G3RS3N
Haunted House BROTHERS GRIM.
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Posted - 2009.03.06 02:53:00 -
[672]
Originally by: Gypsio III Edited by: Gypsio III on 05/03/2009 23:41:38
Originally by: K1RTH G3RS3N rambling drivel
Oh god.
Missile range advantage became stronger because ships got slower and range became more meaningful, plus missile boats are now able to defend that range advantage. Drake has always had to web its target, to stop it just MWDing off and laughing at you. QR was a boost to missile PVP. Remember missiles doing 0.1 damage to anything >4 km/s?
But why am I bothering to write this, you haven't got a clue about game mechanics or missile pvp, as your Drake lolfit shows. I can't believe that you're whining about not always doing 100% damage when this didn't happen before QR anyway.
my drake lolfit is not the drake i use its trying to make a point... did you even read my post in the link? im trying to meet you in the middle but you just want to throw snide remarks and assumptions around and argue like a bad tempered teenager... i dont say you dont understand the mechanics but somehow you KNOW that i dont... you know everything including how i think and what i know...
so, i cant come down to your level please dont reply to anything i say again, and i definitely dont need to explain myself to people like you.
besides, if you use missiles why wouldnt you want them to get a buff??? if you did you would be agreeing, forget what i have said and remember the point of this thread... but youre not agreeing so that just leaves us with youre here to argue and shove your ego in everyones face. if you even read this far and have a clue what ive said congratulations.
Pledge your support |
Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.03.06 11:48:00 -
[673]
Actually, Kirth, I think that I'm pretty good at providing accurate information in response to intelligent questions in S&M about missiles and general game mechanics. If someone's asking sensible questions and genuinely seeks knowledge, I'm very happy to help them - we were all clueless newbies once.
If, however, someone comes on with an ill-informed whine that I know to be baseless and starts posting lolfits as the solution to this imaginary problem, I tend to have less patience...
Oh, and I'm more interested in general game balance rather than missiles being perpetually buffed. Look what happened with the Falcon...
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Shizo Lang
Caldari Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.03.06 13:59:00 -
[674]
ok, i made different experiences as most people here, dunno why. /not signed
i dont know anything about missioning at all and yes maybe its worse than before. But, im ratting alot and doin exploration alot in 0.0, and i found out that ratting in my cerb is still faster than anyone would do in any hac, im killing the rats (even officer ones in venal) fast enough to have an outcome of 4-5 million every paycheck if i chain, and 3-4 million if i kill all spawns + the faction chance. im using t2 launchers ofcause + fury and precision missles at the appropriate targets. I found out a HUGE difference when switching to precision ones fom normal ones at killing destroyer and frig spawns.
The other thing is for pvp u wont need much tank, its more for buffer and resistance. So what u do is to put the explosion sig radius rigs and the explosion velocity rigs on it and u will hit small targets just fine. u get the advantage of choosing the dmg type too, which, noone here mentioned, is very much helping at getting the target down easily.
in pvp i as a cerb am not soloing, but in fleet or gang its a very good thing to have target painters with both skills on 4 on ur ship. ur really boosting the dmg for ur missles...
anyways, i just wanted to make this clear to have the choice to go for rigs + choosing the dmg type will give ya the isk/time ratio back at Ratting in belts.
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K1RTH G3RS3N
Haunted House BROTHERS GRIM.
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Posted - 2009.03.06 14:12:00 -
[675]
Edited by: K1RTH G3RS3N on 06/03/2009 14:15:37
Originally by: Gypsio III Actually, Kirth, I think that I'm pretty good at providing accurate information in response to intelligent questions in S&M about missiles and general game mechanics. If someone's asking sensible questions and genuinely seeks knowledge, I'm very happy to help them - we were all clueless newbies once.
If, however, someone comes on with an ill-informed whine that I know to be baseless and starts posting lolfits as the solution to this imaginary problem, I tend to have less patience...
Oh, and I'm more interested in general game balance rather than missiles being perpetually buffed. Look what happened with the Falcon...
so you either didnt read or understand anything i said then oh and err... all the people youre helping (i mean thankgod for people like you) are just clueless noobies and youre far more superior then everyone else? would i be correct in assuming that?
Pledge your support |
LoRDFoXX
UK Corp
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Posted - 2009.03.06 15:35:00 -
[676]
Edited by: LoRDFoXX on 06/03/2009 15:35:04 /signed
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Righteous Deeds
Diverse Endeavors
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Posted - 2009.03.07 11:19:00 -
[677]
Edited by: Righteous Deeds on 07/03/2009 11:21:10 /signed. They went way too far.
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Saggy Glands
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Posted - 2009.03.07 17:30:00 -
[678]
Originally by: FlameGlow
Speed rebalancing = now everyone can speedtank 50% missile damage, not only few nano***gots can tank 100% like before?
You see this is what you get as a result of the endless nano whines. OMG their spaceships are like going fast and stuff! Wahh. Be careful what you ask for next time. You just might get it!
Not supported. Missiles are too overpowered they need to be nurfed! |
Revan Komnar
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Posted - 2009.03.07 21:45:00 -
[679]
I don't agree. Why should missiles be the only thing hitting for full damage. Guns can't do it why should missiles. |
Kalintos Tyl
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.03.08 07:58:00 -
[680]
with smiisle skils on 3 on sisi using hams ( anti-cruiser) im killing assult ships(frigates) under 1 minute. Same as fully trained t2 turets. Ummmm they need to be buffed you say?.... 60D GTC - shattared link |
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Sissy Fuzz
Sissy Fuzz Communications
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Posted - 2009.03.09 01:09:00 -
[681]
Signed. |
Kytanos Termek
Caldari Darkstorm Command Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.03.09 06:31:00 -
[682]
We need our missles!
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Cataracts
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.09 08:33:00 -
[683]
Missiles do suck.
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TNF absolution
Paxton Industries Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2009.03.09 11:43:00 -
[684]
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Echthalian
Battlestars GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.10 20:46:00 -
[685]
missiles suck a little to much now.
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Thirzarr
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Posted - 2009.03.12 18:36:00 -
[686]
Edited by: Thirzarr on 12/03/2009 18:38:36 now I feel bad about having started a thread in the other board.
This has my support.
Cruise Missiles: - They do have lower DPS than turrets - They do even less to the vast majority of targets (frigs / cruisers) - They have a counter lowering their dps even further (defenders) - They are still of no use in pvp (torps have their... users) - They are expensive - and you need more of them to kill the same targets. - They have a low ROF.
Torpedos: - They don't even hit battleships for the damage listed.
............ edit as for the "no tracking worries" argument: Missile boats cannot work transversal velocity to compensate. I know why I fly vargur and sold the golem, really I do.
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Chillshock
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Posted - 2009.03.14 12:00:00 -
[687]
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Vherr Arkhar
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Posted - 2009.03.16 18:37:00 -
[688]
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Amberle Vale
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Posted - 2009.03.21 09:35:00 -
[689]
+1
Fixing an entire class of obsolete weapons and ships should be priority.
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Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.03.21 09:53:00 -
[690]
Cruise missiles are completly useless. If there is a lag in fleet fight they even need much more time to reach the target like 1 minute,even if you shoot the terciary target your missiles possibly wont reach the target in time. Make them insta dmg weapons ccp --> less lag or dubble the dps/dmg or make sure missiles will hit targets maximum 10 sec after missile is fired also if missile hit target from ahead,target speed should increase its dmg not decrease,if you run into a wall it will hurt you ,but the wall has 0 explo velocity :P
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CrestoftheStars
Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2009.03.22 23:48:00 -
[691]
signed, missiles are indeed quite useless in most cases. they need a totally overhull to work in both pvp and pve ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
CrestoftheStars
Caldari Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2009.03.22 23:50:00 -
[692]
Originally by: K1RTH G3RS3N Edited by: K1RTH G3RS3N on 05/03/2009 11:54:45
Originally by: AKULA UrQuan
Originally by: K1RTH G3RS3N and it will be smacked pretty hard by anything else other then missiles...
remember missile boats 99% of the time need midslots fo tank - thats why people dont like caldari - now they need webs and target painters etc so now they suck 100%
new drake fit
7x hml warp scram, 2x web, 2x target painter, 10mn mwd 4x bcu
^now it has ok dps, and does max damage to cruiser and higher
Find an eager minmatar rookie (or any goon) and place him in this. Now missile preformance shoots up a good bit. Teamwork is not hard, or bad....really.
i wouldnt waste a good pilot on this ship
I have a thundering 1.2M SP in missiles and my cruise raven does just fine with a single T2 target painter. Training up the two target painting skills wasn't a total waste afterall. Only took two years for that to happen.
exp velocity is the problem not the sig radius, as already stated by many people even npc battleship rats can AB tank medium missiles
It is true (Outside Khanid ships) to use webs/painters midslot tank may be sacrificed. This is no different than the choise turret users have to make between tank and damage/tracking mods in the lows. Missile ships get to be forced into some of the same hard choises turret ships deal with everyday.
agreed to an extent (and i have always used a web on my drake anyway) but exp velocity and tracking is still different... by means of transversal
Hell, missile users still have it easy. No goofball tracking to worry about at all.
well they do if a ship is moving they have to worry about that
No EWAR module that make said goofball tracking even worse. Nearly all the lows are free for damage modules.
you dont need a module you just need to be moving
From what I can tell, no more doing 0.0 damage to things. Finaly the SP requirement to use a single missile system to the fullest is still far lower than it's turret equivalent. With all this you guys still whine and rage.
im sorry but but youre stating this against ALOT of unhappy customers, i have and so has alot of people here, done hours of testing and have had proper field testing (no not just against corp mates) and where i could live with how missiles are now due to how i use my ships it has nerfed and ruined 90% of the rest.
if you are going to use a extra person as support, just put some one with a couple of remote tracking computers and the turrets will once again outpreform missiles no prob. (besides you need a webber ship more then target painter to get your full dmg now) ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
Mulura
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Posted - 2009.03.23 11:41:00 -
[693]
Edited by: Mulura on 23/03/2009 11:48:43 Way I see it, if missiles arent fixed, then drones should be nerfed too.
I Miss My Hull |
Cpt Cosmic
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Posted - 2009.03.23 12:35:00 -
[694]
nice whine thread, but it lacks
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KalEl Trask
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Posted - 2009.03.30 01:09:00 -
[695]
/Signed.
Undo this nerf. It was too heavy handed. CCP ignored the MULTITUDES of pleas in the dev forum that this should not have been pushed as was.
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Aethrwolf
Caldari Home for Wayward Gamers
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Posted - 2009.03.30 05:18:00 -
[696]
missile nerf IMHO was aimed squarely at reducing the number of caldari players.. dont expect it to change until the numbers among the races are more balanced Absolutely everything is subjective. |
Morag Tong
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Posted - 2009.03.30 05:52:00 -
[697]
/signed.
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Tyby
Viper Squad Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.04.03 09:27:00 -
[698]
missile nerfing was a direct result of nanonerfing; not suported!
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Vall Kor
ZipZoom Kaboom
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Posted - 2009.04.03 14:45:00 -
[699]
The devs really do need to take a second look at missile, you have a weapon system that has too many negatives (sig, speed, etc etc) and the only positive is it "always" hits.
"By way of deception, thou shalt do war"
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Luzz Bightyear
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Posted - 2009.04.03 16:56:00 -
[700]
Edited by: Luzz Bightyear on 03/04/2009 16:57:32 Losing half my damage to a BS going at base speed is getting very annoying.
I mean, most things about missiles are fine, but someone screwed up on the explosion velocity of the bigger varieties... ------------------
###### > lol some nub ejected from their cnr outside station |
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Korrakas
Legion of Ascension Beyond Ascension
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Posted - 2009.04.03 21:16:00 -
[701]
the missile nerf was heavy handed and clumsily made to cater to whiners, if not repeal it then alteast revise it
Originally by: CCP Mitnal I don't have holidays. I don't leave the forums unattended. I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
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Noix Arikani
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Posted - 2009.04.03 21:17:00 -
[702]
Change the nerf, it fails and just cuases missionrunners to earn less isk and destorys a whole combat system
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Lann Krail
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Posted - 2009.04.03 21:18:00 -
[703]
failnerf, fix it FFS
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Luzz Bightyear
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Posted - 2009.04.03 21:51:00 -
[704]
Originally by: Aethrwolf missile nerf IMHO was aimed squarely at reducing the number of caldari players.. dont expect it to change until the numbers among the races are more balanced
Quick! Everyone make Amarr/Minmatar/Gallente alts! ------------------
###### > lol some nub ejected from their cnr outside station |
tzatza leana
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Posted - 2009.04.04 12:57:00 -
[705]
Edited by: tzatza leana on 04/04/2009 12:57:14 heh, next time when most of you ppl ask for a nerf... remember this! missile are fine like they are now, no need that raven to become a solopawnmobile, or how it was vaga called not suported!
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CrestoftheStars
Caldari Recreation Of The World
|
Posted - 2009.04.04 15:27:00 -
[706]
Originally by: tzatza leana Edited by: tzatza leana on 04/04/2009 12:57:14 heh, next time when most of you ppl ask for a nerf... remember this! missile are fine like they are now, no need that raven to become a solopawnmobile, or how it was vaga called not suported!
and how again would you accomplis that with the old missiles? the torps are the only thing making a raven usefull in pvp right now ;) ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
Lanester
Draconic Industries Eternus Imperium Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.08 20:53:00 -
[707]
Totally agree with this, missiles in PVP combat are now useless.
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Just fearless
Rogue Knights of Eve OWN Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.09 19:25:00 -
[708]
agreed!!! support.
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Yuri Steel
Forge Logistics
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Posted - 2009.04.10 19:21:00 -
[709]
Has this been taken to CCP by the CSM's?
I looked at the CSM Wiki and do not see any mention of it (perhaps I am missing it).
Would be a big let down if a 24 page thread that has been opened for a while now seems to be overlooked by the CSM's.
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Stalina
Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad PuPPet MasTers
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Posted - 2009.04.11 06:20:00 -
[710]
Edited by: Stalina on 11/04/2009 06:22:09
Originally by: Yuri Steel Has this been taken to CCP by the CSM's?
I looked at the CSM Wiki and do not see any mention of it (perhaps I am missing it).
Would be a big let down if a 24 page thread that has been opened for a while now seems to be overlooked by the CSM's.
You dont quite get this forum. You have to look at the supports, not the pages. 170 supports after 705 replies. you lose.
Also 170 players and their alts dont represent the majority of the caldari players. It's not the missiles that suck, it's you and / or your skills ( ingame ). _________________________________
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.04.11 10:08:00 -
[711]
And most of those support votes come from clueless mission-runners and are fairly worthless.
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Stalina
Gallente Deep Space Exploration Squad PuPPet MasTers
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Posted - 2009.04.11 13:30:00 -
[712]
Originally by: Gypsio III And most of those support votes come from clueless mission-runners and are fairly worthless.
Majority of missionrunners is still running missions in their missionrunnerravens. _________________________________
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Isaac Starstriker
Amarr Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2009.04.11 20:29:00 -
[713]
Yeah, 170 supports after all these pages is not nearly enough.
Missile nerf was needed. End of story.
--Isaac Isaac's Haul*Mart - Open
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Kytanos Termek
Caldari Darkstorm Command Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.04.11 21:31:00 -
[714]
Edited by: Kytanos Termek on 11/04/2009 21:33:16 I do agree that missles should be balanced vs other weapon systems.
The key is to look not at positives, or negatives, but raw dps. in as identicle of situations, skill sets, gear levels, etc. as far as guns-lasers-drones-misseles go.
It would be nice to see someone crunch alot of math for all these things and figure out the raw dps each weapon system provides on bs vs bs, vs cru, vs fri. etc.
Btw, 170 does not represent all of eve yes, but they do represent the vocal part, Not too many people post or pay attention to the csm,
My policy is for every vocal member, there is 10-50 people who never ever post, but think the same thing as that member.
As for number of supports vs posts, It just shows that their has been a lot of discussion and argument on the topic. It does not mean people dont like it, They just post and talk more in it.
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Omega87
Griefer-B-Gone Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.04.12 09:49:00 -
[715]
Signed
------ "Nothing ventured, nothing ganked." - Me |
Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.04.12 16:36:00 -
[716]
There should be a similar turret nerf. Turrets werent changed with speed nerf ,thats why amarr laser ships can hit too far and track too fast.
Balance turrets,it is needed !!!
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Isaac Starstriker
Amarr Solaris Operations
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Posted - 2009.04.12 17:48:00 -
[717]
Originally by: Naomi Knight There should be a similar turret nerf. Turrets werent changed with speed nerf ,thats why amarr laser ships can hit too far and track too fast.
Balance turrets,it is needed !!!
Sure, we'll do that as soon as you nerf Tracking disruptors and energy neuts.
--Isaac Isaac's Haul*Mart - Open
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Gryon Stardeath
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Posted - 2009.04.26 19:22:00 -
[718]
Signed
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Sky Marshal
IMpAct Corp Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.04.27 15:16:00 -
[719]
/SIGNED
Missiles was too much nerfed. CCP must "less nerf" it a few to correct them, without have to remove the tank capacity of Afterburners.
They just have to change a few the formula to make primary the Signature Radius, instead of the Velocity like it is today. Velocity should be at second place. With that, we will be able to shoot the same type of ship than us at real damage.
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maya ibuki2
THORN Syndicate Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.04.27 15:26:00 -
[720]
not signed. adapt or die. twas said to me that i had to adapt or die when several nerfs pwned my setups and skill distribution.
coincidentally, the minmatar have ships that, of all things, rely on split weapon systems between the supposedly fail missiles (i have no problem in a huginn or phoon) and the projectiles-which have the lowest dps, poorest tracking, lowest clip size and so on and so on, for the nominal plus of not requiring cap.......
so yeah. deal with it and stop being such whiney little b*tches maya ibuki2-currently thorn alliance pvper, proud member of the 54th knights templar and genral shooty type |
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Nekmet Awai
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Posted - 2009.04.28 11:59:00 -
[721]
signed.
people should remember to use the "check support" box :P
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Nekmet Awai
|
Posted - 2009.04.28 12:01:00 -
[722]
Originally by: Aethrwolf missile nerf IMHO was aimed squarely at reducing the number of caldari players.. dont expect it to change until the numbers among the races are more balanced
that number comes from the easiness of using a raven for missions and the ecm's needed in pvp. not from missiles in pvp. so they failed epicly.. again
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Nekmet Awai
|
Posted - 2009.04.28 12:03:00 -
[723]
Edited by: Nekmet Awai on 28/04/2009 12:05:12
Originally by: Stalina Edited by: Stalina on 11/04/2009 06:22:09
Originally by: Yuri Steel Has this been taken to CCP by the CSM's?
I looked at the CSM Wiki and do not see any mention of it (perhaps I am missing it).
Would be a big let down if a 24 page thread that has been opened for a while now seems to be overlooked by the CSM's.
You dont quite get this forum. You have to look at the supports, not the pages. 170 supports after 705 replies. you lose.
Also 170 players and their alts dont represent the majority of the caldari players. It's not the missiles that suck, it's you and / or your skills ( ingame ).
if you would be so kind to actually look at how many writes signed / supported, but haven't checked the support box, you would see that far beyound 60% have supported this. and then take into account that each time we reply, we can't click support once more
edit: have maxed skills on my caldari pilot, and are quite effective, but some missiles can't be denyid that they simply are useless no matter how you work them.. rockets, standard, cruise, and too some exstand heavy missiles, this if half or all missiles :/
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Nidhiesk
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Posted - 2009.04.28 13:02:00 -
[724]
not signed until I see the complete raw crunching math here
and like others said, adapt or die
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Naomi Knight
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2009.05.04 00:28:00 -
[725]
There are already a lots of data sheets and graphs you just need to find. Also make missile sniping viable.
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Shadow Devourer
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Posted - 2009.05.04 11:10:00 -
[726]
I don't like this thread. It mixes whining with legit issues blurring the two.
No support for a full range missile 'unnerf'. They were broken before patch. Some missiles need help and should get changed. Like lolkets.
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Jotobar
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Posted - 2009.05.04 11:23:00 -
[727]
signed
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Arcanus Exsius
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Posted - 2009.05.16 16:13:00 -
[728]
Signed, Remember to check the support box if you sign.
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Vherr Arkhar
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Posted - 2009.05.17 05:26:00 -
[729]
Already did check.
What candidates support this?
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Sylar McIntyr
Konstrukteure der Zukunft AAA Citizens
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Posted - 2009.05.17 06:13:00 -
[730]
Don't know but it sucks that CCP constantly nerfs an already mediocre weapon system - so /signed ________________________________________________
Making space dangerous again ! |
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Niar Khanna
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Posted - 2009.05.25 00:01:00 -
[731]
Signed. This completely ruined my drake.CCP are a bunch of worthless @!@$@#$*(^)$%))*%$&%^@*)%)&@#$%@#*&)$%# for the missile nerf, and the speed nerf, and the tracking nerf, and the dps nerf.
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Civian Lars
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Posted - 2009.05.25 00:08:00 -
[732]
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Izo Alabaster
Friendly Neighbourhood Extortion Company
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Posted - 2009.05.25 00:11:00 -
[733]
Edited by: Izo Alabaster on 25/05/2009 00:12:37 I think missiles were due for the revision.
Not signed.
Edit -- Furthermore, I applaud CCP for taking a necessary but potentially unpopular stance regarding this issue, and thereby making EVE a better game, even if not a better game for what was an overpowered weapon system.
Originally by: CCP Nozh Are BS useless in solo combat? The larger ship still has many benefits: * Can fit smaller weapons to fend off smaller targets * More slots allow EW counter measures
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Seras Ronon
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Posted - 2009.05.25 00:13:00 -
[734]
/signed.
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scartor
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Posted - 2009.05.25 04:11:00 -
[735]
Originally by: Izo Alabaster overpowered weapon system.
not overpowered, just different. and regarding the missile explo speed nerf: eve: 60-100 somthing RL: multiply that with 100,000
taken from RL: its a known fact all over. missiles "are" best.. IF, and only if, you see the whole picture, like instead of making a hole, it makes things explode/implode/big hole
any other weapon just makes a hole in stuff.
so why must missiles be regarded as the new unusable weapon system (like somthing changed)
ive done a couple of lvl4 (alt alert) and i find it almost the same, only i need a painter for my cruise, and not even tested the torps
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Corey Feldman
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Posted - 2009.05.26 14:21:00 -
[736]
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Zenethalos
Noir.
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Posted - 2009.05.26 16:06:00 -
[737]
Never having tried the missiles post patch because everyone said they were broken I caved and created a torp phoon for PvP. The thing has the potential for awesome DPS with torp spec 4 against slow to stationary targets.
While shooting a stationary Geddon a single torp was hitting for about 300 damage per missile, sweet. Then the geddon started to move... Webbed down to about 45ms and moving parallel to my ship my torps began for hitting for 76 a friggin torp.
The whole time my autocannon's were hitting for a constant damage stationary or moving about 45ms, well minus those barely hit shots.
Moral of the story is missiles need a revision!
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Rollthor
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Posted - 2009.05.26 20:53:00 -
[738]
agreed! signed!
plz go back to the drawboard and find a solution that rebalances this issue.
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DrasticTastic
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Posted - 2009.05.26 21:04:00 -
[739]
aye
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.05.26 23:01:00 -
[740]
Originally by: Zenethalos While shooting a stationary Geddon a single torp was hitting for about 300 damage per missile, sweet. Then the geddon started to move... Webbed down to about 45ms and moving parallel to my ship my torps began for hitting for 76 a friggin torp.
No, they didn't.
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Kytanos Termek
Darkstorm Command Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.06.01 18:00:00 -
[741]
*signed*
atleast make them equal to railguns.
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Izo Alabaster
Friendly Neighbourhood Extortion Company
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Posted - 2009.06.01 18:35:00 -
[742]
Originally by: Kytanos Termek *signed*
atleast make them equal to railguns.
Statements like this confound me. I can't tell if Kytanos Termek is intentionally trying to mislead people and spread the hysteria, or if he's genuinely implying that cruise missiles aren't every bit as good as large railguns.
Cruise missiles do consistently good dps, hit against the target's weakest resistance, and have an optimal range generally further than the ship's max targetting range, while having no minimal range that you have to contend with.
Railguns do consistently mediocre dps, hitting only kinetic and thermal resistances so they never do GOOD dps, they require you to switch out ammunition constantly to get different ranges, and anything that gets in too close, even a cruiser, will be under the guns and completely immune from them, forcing you to rely on your drones to deal with them.
So, what aspect isn't equal to railguns?
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Kytanos Termek
Caldari Darkstorm Command Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.06.01 19:20:00 -
[743]
Edited by: Kytanos Termek on 01/06/2009 19:23:14 The damage is severely reduced if the target is not stationary, They do not hit for their full damage even against the intended class of target when it is stationary. These are common things ive heard.
But what really gets my goat, is the travel time, a crippleing disadvantage, even our long range missles, arent.
Imagine this, a fleet fight, primary is called, your missiles take 10-20 seconds to hit after you've targeted your enemy. (lets face it, most battleships are at sniper range). It's ridiculous that the target is dead before they are even halfway, while the rokh next to you unloads it's batteries, blasting enemies apart. Missles are only useful in long range in a pos or capital bash.
In short: If missles do comparable damage to railguns, they are at a crippleing drawback, they, for all intents and purposes save for 2 exceptions of shooting at stations, or a capital ship. are unable to be used at long range, before the target is killed. railguns on the otherhand, Can fire far away, and then their is blasters, which can fire at short range.
However, blasters compensate for this, by doing alot of dps, missles on the other hand, don't have this advantage.
Missles are still a decent system solo, in a 1v1 fight close up, against rats, or stations, or posses, But in a fleet fight? Dont bring your raven, ever.
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Zeonos
Duty.
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Posted - 2009.06.01 22:22:00 -
[744]
signed
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Mos7Wan7ed
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Posted - 2009.06.01 23:21:00 -
[745]
Edited by: Mos7Wan7ed on 01/06/2009 23:23:37
Originally by: Nidhiesk not signed until I see the complete raw crunching math here
and like others said, adapt or die
CCP will never out the real hard numbers out about the mechanics that go into the missiles. the only numbers we have are glimpse of what might be close to the numbers from player's experiences.
the major problem missiles is they still act like the did way back in the day when they did area of effect damage. ccp nerfed the area of effect component but left this explosive radius and velocity in the mechanics. missiles act like rocket propelled grenades that only ever seem to do damage to one person, instead of real world missiles work with shape charges. even the WWII rocket propelled grenades used had shaped charges LOL.
World War 1 technology will be used for missiles by inhabitants of a distant galaxy millions of years from now, that are full of our space ferrying descendants.
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Minkert
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Posted - 2009.06.02 00:50:00 -
[746]
/signed
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Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
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Posted - 2009.06.02 10:02:00 -
[747]
Edited by: Gypsio III on 02/06/2009 10:05:49
Originally by: Izo Alabaster
Originally by: Kytanos Termek *signed*
atleast make them equal to railguns.
Statements like this confound me. I can't tell if Kytanos Termek is intentionally trying to mislead people and spread the hysteria, or if he's genuinely implying that cruise missiles aren't every bit as good as large railguns.
Cruise missiles do consistently good dps, hit against the target's weakest resistance, and have an optimal range generally further than the ship's max targetting range, while having no minimal range that you have to contend with.
Railguns do consistently mediocre dps, hitting only kinetic and thermal resistances so they never do GOOD dps, they require you to switch out ammunition constantly to get different ranges, and anything that gets in too close, even a cruiser, will be under the guns and completely immune from them, forcing you to rely on your drones to deal with them.
So, what aspect isn't equal to railguns?
The fact that rails are a useful PVP weapon, whereas a long-range anti-BS missile (Cruise) isn't, simply because of flight time. Cruise simply has no role, outside niche ewar-Raven style tactics, and because the defining feature of missiles is flight time, Cruise is not fixable. I've got 13 mill SP in PVP missiles but none of that is wasted on Cruise V.
However:
Quote: The damage is severely reduced if the target is not stationary, They do not hit for their full damage even against the intended class of target when it is stationary. These are common things ive heard.
Common and wrong.
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Arrador
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Posted - 2009.06.02 14:32:00 -
[748]
/signed |
Ana Vyr
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Posted - 2009.06.02 14:53:00 -
[749]
Agreed. Missles were overnerfed. Can we please tweek that back in line a little bit? |
Ulstan
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Posted - 2009.06.02 18:13:00 -
[750]
Missiles as a whole do not suck.
There are some issues however:
Short range T2 ammo being fail(not just a missile problem)
Rockets failing in every way imaginable: explosion speed, explosion velocity, damage.
HAM's have a bit too steep fitting, IMO, (or else the ships meant to fit them don't have quite enough PG)
Cruise missiles could use a niche in RVR. Long range fleet 'sniping' weapon with travel time is a pretty clear contradiction in terms.
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Sumnamna
Flying Scotsmen
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Posted - 2009.06.02 20:28:00 -
[751]
SIgned
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a grue
Best Path Inc. Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.06.02 23:06:00 -
[752]
Opposed
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Kytanos Termek
Caldari Darkstorm Command Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.06.02 23:07:00 -
[753]
Fix the range, That is the main issue I had pre and post nerf. Fix it, and I will be happy as a clam. I can accept the rest.
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Kookieater
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Posted - 2009.06.13 12:04:00 -
[754]
I choose Caldari because they under lore of creation guide are the fleet specialist specializing in the art of war.
I'm a pilot who has trained specifically for Caldari's Strengths shield and missles.
At this point I feel sad about both skills as neither serve me well anymore especially the missles!
Training now to make a sniper boat with rails.
Hope I can be of some use in a month to my alliance till then the sound of the mining lasers hitting the rocks around me keep me mezmorized dreaming of the day I can stand on equal ground as the other races of Eve.
/signed in support of increaseing missles effectiveness in fleets.
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Asha Seshanti
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Posted - 2009.06.15 02:36:00 -
[755]
/signed.
6mil SP wasted...
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Diakono
|
Posted - 2009.06.15 08:35:00 -
[756]
SIGNED
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Oam Mkoll
The Legion of Spoon Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.15 17:12:00 -
[757]
I have to admit, missiles in general have been hit way too hard. By the way rockets are below useless now. Fix those too. |
Theodore Kaczynski
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.06.15 19:13:00 -
[758]
Most of the Caldari whiners in this thread want missiles to be superior to turrets in every way. Missile users already don't have to worry about tracking, falloff, and cap while being able to pick damage types. Missiles shouldn't be superior in every way; they should have their downsides. Rockets do need some fixing, though.
Pre-QR, missiles just wouldn't hit nanoships and therefore would do 0 damage. How was QR a nerf?
PS: Be thankful you're not Minmatar and don't have to deal with large projectile turrets.
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Kytanos Termek
Caldari Darkstorm Command Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.06.16 01:57:00 -
[759]
Yes we don't have to worry about tracking at all. Instead our damage is directly reduced, even if the target is heading right at us.
Do the research before posting. kthxbye
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2009.06.16 04:56:00 -
[760]
Edited by: Ulstan on 16/06/2009 04:57:26 Edited by: Ulstan on 16/06/2009 04:56:57 There are two ways to reduce missile damage: sig radius, or velocity There are two ways to reduce turret damage: sig radius, or angular velocity
Turrets have an optimal range and do reduced damage beyond that range Missiles have an optimal range and do 0 damage if the target is even 1km beyond that range.
So far, missiles do not seem to be coming out way ahead here.
I do think QR overall helped missiles though. Overall. Cruises are kind of pointless in PVP now and rockets just suck terribly, as does most T2 missile ammo, but at least you can use torps, and heavy missiles actually might pose a threat to fast moving cruisers.
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Uriel Kharan
RobCorp
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Posted - 2009.06.16 06:03:00 -
[761]
/Signed |
Grann Thefauto
Internal Anarchy
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Posted - 2009.06.16 17:01:00 -
[762]
So I've skimmed almost this entire topic and have yet to see any proof that missile DPS is substantially worse than turret DPS when compared with equivalent sized turrets at various speeds and orbit types.
From my experience fighting missile ships in PVP they are still competitive with turrets when fit properly and are immune to tracking disruption to boot.
This topic needs actual proof if you guys want to change anything.
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SupaKudoRio
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Posted - 2009.06.16 17:53:00 -
[763]
Only thing I want right now is to be able to use a missile against the ship size it was meant for without losing damage because that ship is moving at base velocity.
Or a module to increase explosion velocity... |
Theodore Kaczynski
Minmatar
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Posted - 2009.06.17 02:23:00 -
[764]
Originally by: Kytanos Termek Yes we don't have to worry about tracking at all. Instead our damage is directly reduced, even if the target is heading right at us.
Do the research before posting. kthxbye
You do the exact same damage regardless of whether the target is heading right at you or at it's maximum transversal against you, and have no worries about falloff. That's a huge advantage over turrets, especially Minmatar ones. By the time your target is within the optimal of a projectile turret, they're probably close enough to mitigate damage via transveral.
Just because your missiles don't always do their theoretical maximum damage doesn't mean they should. This is EVE, not EFT. |
Twilight Magester
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Posted - 2009.06.17 07:14:00 -
[765]
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bearseemon
|
Posted - 2009.07.21 02:37:00 -
[766]
signed
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Rebnok
H A V O C
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Posted - 2009.07.21 02:52:00 -
[767]
Originally by: Asha Seshanti /signed.
6mil SP wasted...
Try about 30!
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chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.07.21 11:37:00 -
[768]
Edited by: chatgris on 21/07/2009 11:38:29
Originally by: SupaKudoRio Only thing I want right now is to be able to use a missile against the ship size it was meant for without losing damage because that ship is moving at base velocity.
Or a module to increase explosion velocity...
Or a module to reduce ship speed?
Barring rockets, missiles are fine. They have their strengths and their weaknesses.
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Lakut
EmpiresMod
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Posted - 2009.07.21 14:46:00 -
[769]
Originally by: Theodore Kaczynski Missile users already don't have to worry about [...] while being able to pick damage types.
Choosing damage types becomes a moot point in PVP (screw PVE) where everybody (as in everybody that isn't comedy fit and/or ratting/plexing) omnitanks in the first place and most missile bonuses except a select few (namely the Raven, Rook and Widow, Lachesis, Huginn and Typhoon (with lolsplitweapons) with RoF bonus, the Golem with a general missile damage bonus, a few of the Amarr missile boats with a general bonus for short range missiles) have bonuses applied to their racial damage type (with a few ships that at least have a RoF bonus on top like the Nighthawk and Cerb or have a minor damage bonus for other damage types like Kestrel, Breacher and Inquisitor).
Going by Caldari ships kin bonus:
According to my calculations using the relevant ship skill at a reasonable Level 4 (-> 20% Kinetic damage bonus, on L5 the damage bonus becomes only more significant meaning less increase after switching ammo), switching ammo away from the kinetic bonuses usually only brings a very minor damage increase thanks to that or even a slight damage decrease, unless your target didn't plug his biggest resistance hole at all.
Rough, quick and dirty calculation examples (assuming 100 as missile base damage) and listing values for bonused missiles (Golem, Sacrilege, etc.) and L5 skill damage for comparison: Drake with T2 Invul and EM Hardener has 58% Thermal, 68.5% Kinetic and 75% EM resists. Going with Drake as a typical Shield tanking example since T1 armor tanks already have Kin as their default second weakest resist and it's a decent damagetype to use against to begin with. EM Missiles: Higher resists than Kinetic, pass. Therm Missiles (100*1-0.58): 42 Bonused Therm Missiles (120*1-0.58): 50.4 Kinetic Missiles (120*1-0.685): 37.8 Kinetic Missiles L5 ship skill (125*1-0.685): 39.375 So depending on your relevant ship skill you'll do around 10% more damage than just sticking with your bonused damage. Not stellar, but an OK increase. OTOH, if you had a bonus on those therm missiles you'd get over 30% increase in damage instead.
Adding another Invul further compresses the spread of resists with therm at 69% and Kin at 76% leaves you with following damage after resists: EM Missiles, higher than Kin resists. Do not want. Therm Missiles (100*1-0.69): 31 Bonused Therm Missiles (120*1-0.69): 37.2 Kin Missiles (120*1-0.767): 27.96 Kin Missiles L5 Skill (125-0.767): 29.125 As expected pretty much the same as the added Invul doesn't change the resists in relation to each other. An approximate 10% increase assuming you hit the right Damage hole against ~30% with a general damage bonus.
Now let's check it with shield rigs (2xEM 1xTherm Shield rigs + 2x Invul) since those are cheap enough for sticking on your average pewpew ship and will probably become more widespread with the addition of rig sizes. You'd end up with 70.6% EM, 74.3% Therm and 76.7% Kin resists. EM Missiles (100*1-0.706): 29.4 Bonused EM Missiles (120*1-0.706): 35.28 Therm Missiles (100*1-0.743): 25.7 Bonused Therm Missies (120-0.743): 30.84 Kin Missiles (120*1-0.767): 27.96 Kin Missiles L5 Skill (125*1-0.767): 29.125 Switching damage type now boils down to a meh damage increase of < 5% for EM and a decrease of ~10% for Therm missiles. With general bonus, you'd get a 26% and 10% damage increase respectively instead.
Best case scenario, Tank with 2x Invul, leaving you with 61.2% EM and 76.6% Kin: EM Missiles (100*1-0.612): 38.8 Bonused EM Missiles (120*1-0.612): 46.56 Kin Missiles (120*1-0.767): 27.96 Kin Missiles L5 Skill (125-1*0.767): 29.125 Now you hit the paydirt where switching damage type is completely and undeniably worth it with ~30% increase in Damage even over L5 ship skill and a buttraeping 65% increase in damage using damage bonused EM missiles.
[continuation follows] Most importantly, the issue is that this is already my signature. ---------- You get a wonderful view from the point of no return. |
Lakut
EmpiresMod
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Posted - 2009.07.21 14:47:00 -
[770]
Edited by: Lakut on 21/07/2009 14:49:27 Sadly those Shield tanks that come completely without EM and/or Therm resistance plugging are according to my experience and a quick glance at a few recent and randomly selected Drake and Raven killmails at eve-kill.net mostly comedy fits that pose no threat to you either way and are going to die in a terrible fire whatever damage type you use, just a little bit slower or ratting fits where you'll obviously be prepared to hit the damage hole if they're tanking against Kin rats.
Additionally, you'll have to find out which category of tank you're dealing with first, because you're potentially worse off with EM or Therm depending on the fit. To do so, you'll have to load rainbow damage first check the damage log for the best hit and spend what feels like an eternity reloading (WTB> 1sec Laser reload times) before you do your max damage. That's 10 seconds doing no damage (except for the launcher(s) that already had the correct missile) potentially negating any damage increase you might get out of it, depending on the duration of the fight, unless for example the DPS increase is absolutely needed to break a passive shield tank's peak regen.
YMMV with armor tanks, but the general problem is the same. While Kin is decent by default after plugging the EXP hole with a Hardener, there's nothing seriously left to shoot at (except against T2 Gallente ships with their high base Kinetic resist, where you're probably better off with *anything* but Kin missiles by default where the lack of a general damage bonus on everything sucks pretty much, too) and when the Kin hole is properly plugged as well you might start to consider Therm missiles.
In general I wouldn't bother to switch missiles on a single flavor bonused boat unless it can reasonably assumed that there's a gaping hole in the resists (ratters that are tanking against specific NPC damage types and especially if they tank against kin damage rats), you're going against a Gallente T2 ship or you know the fit your target is usually using after seeing previous losses using that shiptype on a killboard.
tl;dr: On a ship with a bonus towards a specific missile damage flavour, your increases in damage on a proper omnitank (hole plugged) are on average relatively meh (unless you hit the untanked resistance hole) and if you're unlucky while you run in with the damage type for the expected weakest resist loaded can do quite a bit less damage than your bonused damage type even if the resist is actually lower than the one you're bonused against.
edit/PS: Please correct me should I have any misconceptions about how Resistances get applied and/or errors in my calculations. Most importantly, the issue is that this is already my signature. ---------- You get a wonderful view from the point of no return. |
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Hoo Is
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Posted - 2009.07.21 20:15:00 -
[771]
Originally by: Theodore Kaczynski
Originally by: Kytanos Termek Yes we don't have to worry about tracking at all. Instead our damage is directly reduced, even if the target is heading right at us.
Do the research before posting. kthxbye
You do the exact same damage regardless of whether the target is heading right at you or at it's maximum transversal against you, and have no worries about falloff. That's a huge advantage over turrets, especially Minmatar ones. By the time your target is within the optimal of a projectile turret, they're probably close enough to mitigate damage via transveral.
Just because your missiles don't always do their theoretical maximum damage doesn't mean they should. This is EVE, not EFT.
You forgot about flight time... Missles don't instant hit.
I would say something about defenders, but I have never seen them fit on anything except NPC ships
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Twilight Magester
Caldari Foundation Sons of Tangra
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Posted - 2009.07.22 07:11:00 -
[772]
Originally by: Hoo Is
Originally by: Theodore Kaczynski
Originally by: Kytanos Termek Yes we don't have to worry about tracking at all. Instead our damage is directly reduced, even if the target is heading right at us.
Do the research before posting. kthxbye
You do the exact same damage regardless of whether the target is heading right at you or at it's maximum transversal against you, and have no worries about falloff. That's a huge advantage over turrets, especially Minmatar ones. By the time your target is within the optimal of a projectile turret, they're probably close enough to mitigate damage via transveral.
Just because your missiles don't always do their theoretical maximum damage doesn't mean they should. This is EVE, not EFT.
You forgot about flight time... Missles don't instant hit.
I would say something about defenders, but I have never seen them fit on anything except NPC ships
Missiles don't instant hit, but if the DPS is roughly the same as the same weapon class of turret there's no problem.
What it seems like from this thread, they're not roughly the same (or if the nerf did make them roughly the same people want imba-missiles again) so they should be "fixed."
What we could use here is some EFT-Warriors posting theoretical numbers (if there are already some, I apologize), that at least should give people a reasonable idea of how unbalanced things are.
EFT-Warriors: Don't use all level 5 for one set and 0 skills for another. IMHO the base damage (all L0) and high end damage (all L5) should be compared without fitting modules other than launchers/blasters/rails/lasters etc.
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