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Luzz Bightyear
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Posted - 2009.02.16 21:26:00 -
[31]
Working as intended much?
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####### > Fear my mighty Ibis! :-D |
Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.16 21:30:00 -
[32]
 Originally by: sir gankalot
Edited by: sir gankalot on 16/02/2009 19:59:23
Edited by: sir gankalot on 16/02/2009 19:58:01
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 16/02/2009 19:31:48
@Gank
I petitioned myself for doing it a long time ago the reply was that nothing odd had happened. I also don't believe in the "I never got a warning message" while at the same time stating "I didn't have messages turned off". You know full well how eager people are to tell the truth if they gain by telling a lie.
Try it yourself, I have reproduced this bug b4. It DOES not warn you. I lost me a ship this way and petitioned it too. Response was "logs show you stole, nothing odd. But file a bug report if you are sure". So I did. Still in processing.
Ppl who wanna try for themselves: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=981128&page=2#44
Reproduced it with the "nearly full cargohold"-trick cause you can't exactly predict lag but I'm guessing it works the same way.
Well, as it never happened to me (I don't mine) I can only go by what a GM tells me. Keep me updated on what happens to that bug report/petition.
In the mean time I'll still stand by what I say, regardless of the trolling folks; being able to drop goods/ore directly from one ship into another without needing an extra step makes things TOO easy.
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Max Thorus
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Posted - 2009.02.16 22:53:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
being able to drop goods/ore directly from one ship into another without needing an extra step makes things TOO easy.
Thats total bull****, it wouldnt be difficult to anchor a GSC between those ships.
Will you then cry cuz you cant access that GSC?
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.16 23:02:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Max Thorus
Originally by: Tzar'rim
being able to drop goods/ore directly from one ship into another without needing an extra step makes things TOO easy.
Thats total bull****, it wouldnt be difficult to anchor a GSC between those ships.
Will you then cry cuz you cant access that GSC?
If you'd have actually read the thread then you would have understood that no, I don't mind that. It takes effort and you can't move a lot of ore at the same time. You're also confined to a single spot. But feel free to troll without actually reading threads.
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Nnamuachs
Caldari
Kiith Paktu
Veneratio Venator Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.16 23:34:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Greenbolt
I sense pirate tears.
Move valuable than carebear tears any day.
If there in a corp working together with an orca war dec em hunt em slay em. profit.
If there in npc corp but they are clustered close enough for an orca...you can consider suicide bombing them. (Not sure how that works these days).
Whats that phrase? Adapt or move on.
(Though slightly off topic..I hate NPC corps for any character older than the trial period)
Pretty sure rookie corps cant use the corporate hangar on an orca because it requires permissions, even for being the pilot of the ship, to get things out of it.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.02.17 00:00:00 -
[36]
Nerfing a ship just so you can rely on a canflip is not a good method of game balance. If anything, wardec's should be easier.
Back to point, if someone wants to spend a pile of cash on a ship just so they can dump directly into cargo, then its time for you to adapt from your can flipping ways. The old story of adapt or die springs to mind......
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Billion Isk Mission |
Kanikara
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.17 04:45:00 -
[37]
Originally by: sir gankalot
Edited by: sir gankalot on 16/02/2009 19:59:23
Edited by: sir gankalot on 16/02/2009 19:58:01
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 16/02/2009 19:31:48
@Gank
I petitioned myself for doing it a long time ago the reply was that nothing odd had happened. I also don't believe in the "I never got a warning message" while at the same time stating "I didn't have messages turned off". You know full well how eager people are to tell the truth if they gain by telling a lie.
Try it yourself, I have reproduced this bug b4. It DOES not warn you. I lost me a ship this way and petitioned it too. Response was "logs show you stole, nothing odd. But file a bug report if you are sure". So I did. Still in processing.
Ppl who wanna try for themselves: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=981128&page=2#44
Reproduced it with the "nearly full cargohold"-trick cause you can't exactly predict lag but I'm guessing it works the same way.
Could also be done by simply being fast enough to stack/sort the ore in their can (or to snatch it all into your can), haven't tested that lately though been on hiatus...
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Kanikara
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.17 04:46:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Nnamuachs
Originally by: Greenbolt
I sense pirate tears.
Move valuable than carebear tears any day.
If there in a corp working together with an orca war dec em hunt em slay em. profit.
If there in npc corp but they are clustered close enough for an orca...you can consider suicide bombing them. (Not sure how that works these days).
Whats that phrase? Adapt or move on.
(Though slightly off topic..I hate NPC corps for any character older than the trial period)
Pretty sure rookie corps cant use the corporate hangar on an orca because it requires permissions, even for being the pilot of the ship, to get things out of it.
They can still drop ore into the hangars, and the pilot always has access to the hangars of their ship.
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Kanikara
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.17 04:49:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Originally by: Max Thorus
Originally by: Tzar'rim
being able to drop goods/ore directly from one ship into another without needing an extra step makes things TOO easy.
Thats total bull****, it wouldnt be difficult to anchor a GSC between those ships.
Will you then cry cuz you cant access that GSC?
If you'd have actually read the thread then you would have understood that no, I don't mind that. It takes effort and you can't move a lot of ore at the same time. You're also confined to a single spot. But feel free to troll without actually reading threads.
Umm hauler on station... pulling a jetcan at a time back to station while the miner cycle for the next load (in cargo rigged hulks with upgrades in the low they can handle the time for the itty v or transport to come back)
Easy enough to unachor and move the can with a tractor as needed...
This sounds like someone upset that the easy prey has disappeared. But keep looking not everyone has an orca on hand.
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Taliph Stillwood
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Posted - 2009.02.17 05:49:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Nope.
I have no problems with people using secure cans
I have no problems with people moving back and forth
I have no problems with people putting in effort (security or just being smart)
bolded: what do you think bringing other people is? an orca can easily be classified as security against can flippers.
Originally by: Tzar'rim
I have no problems with people trying the quick switch trick, in fact I LOVE it. Gives me plenty kills.
I have no problems with things being difficult, challenging or needing effort
I have no problems with people accepting lower rewards to increase their security
I DO have problems with a 100% failsafe way of doing things while at the same time increasing rewards.
They are lowering the rewards... how many people have to be in hulks in the gang to make up for losing a hulk to add an orca?
I find it vastly humorous that a can flipper is trying to argue risk vs reward when they tend to target newbs for the easy loot and lulz.
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Fahtim Meidires
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.17 06:12:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Taliph Stillwood
They are lowering the rewards... how many people have to be in hulks in the gang to make up for losing a hulk to add an orca?
Enough that's it's worth encouraging group behavior.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.17 09:58:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 17/02/2009 09:59:42
Originally by: Taliph Stillwood
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Nope.
I have no problems with people using secure cans
I have no problems with people moving back and forth
I have no problems with people putting in effort (security or just being smart)
bolded: what do you think bringing other people is? an orca can easily be classified as security against can flippers.
Originally by: Tzar'rim
I have no problems with people trying the quick switch trick, in fact I LOVE it. Gives me plenty kills.
I have no problems with things being difficult, challenging or needing effort
I have no problems with people accepting lower rewards to increase their security
I DO have problems with a 100% failsafe way of doing things while at the same time increasing rewards.
They are lowering the rewards... how many people have to be in hulks in the gang to make up for losing a hulk to add an orca?
I find it vastly humorous that a can flipper is trying to argue risk vs reward when they tend to target newbs for the easy loot and lulz.
I see you missed out the "I have no problems with things being more difficult or challenging", I do have problems with things being impossible. Apart from that an Orca gives mining bonuses in case you haven't realised, so the "but they need an extra pilot for it" doesn't exactly hold any ground.
Also; you're mistaken on the 'targeting newbs' part, it shows that you don't really understand the whole concept.
To the other poster going "but they can tractor cans", tractoring cans still gives an opportunity, it's not completely safe AND the Orca pilot HAS to be alert and not AFK. As it is now the Orca doesn't even need to be actively used as the whole thing is done by the miners.
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Taliph Stillwood
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Posted - 2009.02.17 11:41:00 -
[43]
if my math is correct, they would need to have a gang of over 25 people in hulks in order for the command bonus's to become more profitable for that one orca pilot to not have brought a hulk as well...
so either they are sacrificing mining yield for added security or you are targeting large corp operations that would swarm you with drones the second you started flashing.
So, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and not think you a complete moron, by assuming that you are targeting ops with 3-5 pilots. With that assumption, and your reasoning that I bolded in my previous post:
Originally by: Tzar'rim
I have no problems with people accepting lower rewards to increase their security
your argument is moot, and your suggestion defunct.
Targeting anyone mining is lowering your risk. Otherwise, why would anyone be a can flipper? The ore you would be able to carry in one hauler load is about enough to pay for the hauler, and a second hauler to replace it (assuming you use cargo expanders) unless you are one of the fabled 0.0 can flippers, but then you would be complaining about the rorq instead.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.17 11:51:00 -
[44]
Your'e forgetting one thing; the hauler that's normally needed to move the ore, he's replaced by the Orca so you actually GAIN mining yield due to the fleet bonuses. Unless ofcourse you do the "lets all mine 20 cans full of ore and when we're done we'll all grab haulers and go pick it up". But that would be stupid and luckily/sadly I don't see people THAT stupid too much.
You're also mistaken in the fact that I actually care about the ore, or some hauler or silly Retriever dropping Cargo Expander 2's.
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Taliph Stillwood
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Posted - 2009.02.17 11:59:00 -
[45]
ok, so you are just interested in easy kills for your killboard... too bad the "carebears" are now starting to outsmart you, lol (and the bug, if your interest really is can switching)
and actually, with a 3-5 man op, why sac a pilot to a hauler when a properly rigged hulk can warp back to station to drop their own loads without losing nearly as much mining yield? that hauler would only "save" one mining cycle per ~10 min, while losing that pilot's mining cycles for the entire time
regardless, can flipping in highsec is the most lol profession in the game... you would make better isk salvaging belt wrecks, but you aren't interested in the isk...
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.17 12:27:00 -
[46]
Yesterday well over 5 billion was destroyed due to our actions (could be more, it's a guesstimate as we stopped using a KB), and wouldn't I have had the "you're not within 1500m of the wreck" bug we'd have looted at least 2 bil more than the 150ish mil we did.
Is that a whole lot? no but we're having fun doing it and we gain cash in the process, I'd rather have that than optimise my income while being bored to a point my braincells start to melt.
Also, you're not debating the issue but are just voicing your dislike/lack of knowledge on my chosen passtime. My statement still stands; Being able to mine directly into an AFK Orca with a HUGE cargohold AND which gives bonuses is silly. I don't mind the cargohold or the bonuses, I midn the 100% safety issue.
In the mean time your replying (or trolling, not sure on it) keeps this thread nicely bumped, so thanks I guess.
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Kanikara
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.17 13:47:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Taliph Stillwood
if my math is correct, they would need to have a gang of over 25 people in hulks in order for the command bonus's to become more profitable for that one orca pilot to not have brought a hulk as well...
so either they are sacrificing mining yield for added security or you are targeting large corp operations that would swarm you with drones the second you started flashing.
So, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and not think you a complete moron, by assuming that you are targeting ops with 3-5 pilots. With that assumption, and your reasoning that I bolded in my previous post:
Originally by: Tzar'rim
I have no problems with people accepting lower rewards to increase their security
your argument is moot, and your suggestion defunct.
Targeting anyone mining is lowering your risk. Otherwise, why would anyone be a can flipper? The ore you would be able to carry in one hauler load is about enough to pay for the hauler, and a second hauler to replace it (assuming you use cargo expanders) unless you are one of the fabled 0.0 can flippers, but then you would be complaining about the rorq instead.
Actually the break even/gain is 5 hulks + 1 Orca vs 6 Hulks with the orca bonuses using the cycle time reduction gang link.
A common fit for a high security orca is LSE IIs in all the mids for a large buffer tank; Expanded Cargohold IIs in the lows; Ganglink, tractor, salvager in the highs for cleaning up rat kills from the drones.
With T1 rigs it comes out to about 120k m3 cargo capacity. Which for the hulks is only around 5-6 cycles for the fleet... (figure a yield of around 4.5k * 5 = 22.5k m3 per cycle; so about 5 cycles before the orca has to dock. One reason many use the corp hangar as a GSC with 2 haulers to take turns emptying it allowing the Orca to stay out there with boosts)
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.02.17 14:09:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
In the mean time your replying (or trolling, not sure on it) keeps this thread nicely bumped, so thanks I guess.
It's staying bumped, but it has 0 thumbs-up supports so far out of 46 replies. At this rate it might soon match the "Pay for skill gain" thread for reply-to-support ratio.
Activity does not equal progress.
~ Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic |
Kanikara
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.17 14:15:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Originally by: Tzar'rim
In the mean time your replying (or trolling, not sure on it) keeps this thread nicely bumped, so thanks I guess.
It's staying bumped, but it has 0 thumbs-up supports so far out of 46 replies. At this rate it might soon match the "Pay for skill gain" thread for reply-to-support ratio.
Activity does not equal progress.
Reminds me of the whines about nerfing secure containers... yes there were whinges about GSC's being unhackable and making mining too safe with miners using them as transfer canisters...
Net result there was nothing, just database load issues resulted in them being removed over time and from higher security space.
Now it's the piwhat whines about the Orca in high security...
Adapt, don't whine...
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Odetta Harpy
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Posted - 2009.02.17 14:17:00 -
[50]
this topic has no porpose, go 2 low sec and go after people that can defend themselves instead of moaning about how you cant kill empire miners with cheap tricks.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Worlds End Consortium
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Posted - 2009.02.17 15:14:00 -
[51]
I figured it out... he got pwn3d by an Orca... and now hes whining over epic failness.
That's why hes posting this stupid thread.
===============
CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre
www.shadowcadre.com
===============
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.02.17 15:46:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Drake Draconis
I figured it out... he got pwn3d by an Orca... and now hes whining over epic failness.
That's why hes posting this stupid thread.
Or goaded the wrong Hulk/Orca team into a can flip.
Gist tank Hulk and drone spec pilot ftw  |
Morgan Lorus
Caldari
Unstable Reaction Inc.
North Domain Defense Forces
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Posted - 2009.02.17 17:08:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Taliph Stillwood
if my math is correct, they would need to have a gang of over 25 people in hulks in order for the command bonus's to become more profitable for that one orca pilot to not have brought a hulk as well...
An Orca gives a total bonus of 55.14% to a miners per minute yield.
With your maths, yield of 25 Hulks + Orca = yield of 38.785 Hulks without Orca.
So already in a group of 3, its worth to switch one Hulk for an Orca. (2 Hulks+Orca = 3.1 Hulks)
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Abulurd Boniface
Gallente
Mercantile Exchange for Mining And Exploration
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Posted - 2009.02.17 17:32:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Being able to mine directly into an AFK Orca with a HUGE cargohold AND which gives bonuses is silly. I don't mind the cargohold or the bonuses, I midn the 100% safety issue.
Without getting too much further into this, the Hulk is actually not dropping the ore directly into the Orca's cargohold, the ore is sent to the corporate hangar which has a fixed size of 40km3. So, you won't be afk-Orcaing for too long.
Huge is as huge does. The corporate hangar inclusive, total cargo capacity [using expensive rigs] is going to be... 165km3-ish ore? It's a fun amount of ore, it's not going to buy the old lady a pair of new shoes and paying someone to make 60 jumps up and down to go and collect them.
It's a fun boat, an Orca, it's not the holy grail either, buddy.
Abulurd Boniface
ME ME
CEO
For good to survive it suffices for evil to acquire a deadly, incapacitating disease. |
Kanikara
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.17 17:37:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Drake Draconis
I figured it out... he got pwn3d by an Orca... and now hes whining over epic failness.
That's why hes posting this stupid thread.
Wouldn't be the first... hell the eve uni had a pilot get 2 kills in their orca. So there are some out there that will eat the unwary for lunch.
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Fahtim Meidires
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.17 17:54:00 -
[56]
You're thinking about it the wrong way.
An Orca is a secure canister with an engine and tractor beams. (What CCP wanted)
thus:
An Orca is a tractor-enhanced ship with a corp hangar array. (CCP's implementation)
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Lurana Lay
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.17 19:15:00 -
[57]
Posting in a "I have no ideas and can't hang in Low Sec or 0.0" thread.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.17 21:57:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 17/02/2009 21:59:45
Originally by: Greenbolt
I sense pirate tears.
Move valuable than carebear tears any day.
If there in a corp working together with an orca war dec em hunt em slay em. profit.
If there in npc corp but they are clustered close enough for an orca...you can consider suicide bombing them. (Not sure how that works these days).
Whats that phrase? Adapt or move on.
(Though slightly off topic..I hate NPC corps for any character older than the trial period)
NPC corp = no corp hangar = almost useless orca
Originally by: Kanikara
They can still drop ore into the hangars, and the pilot always has access to the hangars of their ship.
I doubt that, as a corpmate without roles was happy when he received them saying "now I can access my orca hangars"
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Ashen Angel
Minmatar
Eve University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2009.02.17 22:20:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 17/02/2009 21:59:45
Originally by: Greenbolt
I sense pirate tears.
Move valuable than carebear tears any day.
If there in a corp working together with an orca war dec em hunt em slay em. profit.
If there in npc corp but they are clustered close enough for an orca...you can consider suicide bombing them. (Not sure how that works these days).
Whats that phrase? Adapt or move on.
(Though slightly off topic..I hate NPC corps for any character older than the trial period)
NPC corp = no corp hangar = almost useless orca
Originally by: Kanikara
They can still drop ore into the hangars, and the pilot always has access to the hangars of their ship.
I doubt that, as a corpmate without roles was happy when he received them saying "now I can access my orca hangars"
The corp hangar and ship maintenance bay do work in npc corps and for those without roles. You are told access denied, but have full access anyway to the ship's corporate hangars. Same with any ship using a corporate hangar, the pilot always has full access to any part of the ship.
A npc corporation member can drop into the corp hangar even though there are no roles (they get the message about you can not recover these items if you continue... )
EVE University - Mining Fleet : Mining Specialist
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Special Projects Executive
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Posted - 2009.02.17 22:21:00 -
[60]
Edited by: De''Veldrin on 17/02/2009 22:21:56
You can also fleet with an Orca and you can access the hangars even if you aren't in the same corp, as long as they set up the permissions correctly. We do this alot with some associates.
As for the OP: If you don't like folks mining into their Orcas, be all means start shooting at them. Blowing up the Orca will certainly solve your perceived problem. Of course if you do that enough everyone will just start mining in Hulks again - but who doesn't want to mount strip miners on a Mammoth? I mean really?
--Vel
There is no right or wrong way. There is only what works and what leaves you waking up in a clone vat. |
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