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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.16 12:41:00 -
[1]
Miners can drop their ore directly into one of the holds of an Orca without needing (secure) cans or anything similar. This creates a completely safe mining environment (apart from suicides) which just shouldn't be.
Increased asset security is good and understandable, and putting in effort and thought should make things safer, but 100% safety is NOT what EVE is about. Any thoughts?
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.02.16 12:48:00 -
[2]
1. Lacking an orca. They sit there with 1 unit in the can. they drop in the can and then grab it immediately.
Truly... the creation/use of orca just makes less bandwidth and checks required. Which is good.
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To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe.
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Life sucks and then you get podded. |
Abulurd Boniface
Gallente
Mercantile Exchange for Mining And Exploration
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Posted - 2009.02.16 14:02:00 -
[3]
 Originally by: Tzar'rim
Miners can drop their ore directly into one of the holds of an Orca without needing (secure) cans or anything similar. This creates a completely safe mining environment (apart from suicides) which just shouldn't be.
Increased asset security is good and understandable, and putting in effort and thought should make things safer, but 100% safety is NOT what EVE is about. Any thoughts?
There is no 100% security because in large belts the Orca driver has to haul in cans from tens of kilometers away.
So, there is always a chance that an honest-working can flipper could interfere.
Dropping ore into the corporate hangar is as it should be.
There is nothing to stop you from shooting at any ship you like. You don't need an excuse at all.
Why do you believe a miner should accomodate your need to facilitate the destruction of their ship?
Plus, not everybody has access to an Orca. They tend to be rather pricey.
I don't see your problem.
Abulurd Boniface
ME ME
CEO
For good to survive it suffices for evil to acquire a deadly, incapacitating disease. |
Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.16 14:27:00 -
[4]
And THAT'S where you're wrong. If the miners are within 1500m of the Orca they can directly dump their ore into one of the hangars without needing to use cans whatsoever. That's my issue with them.
I don't have problems with their role as ore collector/mining booster using their tractorbeam bonuses. It's the fact that if they choose to sit right next to their miners they don't need cans at all.
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Total Disaster
Caldari
Frontier Industry
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Posted - 2009.02.16 14:41:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
And THAT'S where you're wrong. If the miners are within 1500m of the Orca they can directly dump their ore into one of the hangars without needing to use cans whatsoever. That's my issue with them.
I don't have problems with their role as ore collector/mining booster using their tractorbeam bonuses. It's the fact that if they choose to sit right next to their miners they don't need cans at all.
so what? "Carebears" are paying an incredible amount of isk to have an orca with which they can mine "safely" without having to fear some can switchers....
isn't that what the orca is suppose to do?
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.16 14:52:00 -
[6]
This method is 100% failsafe, which there shouldn't be in EVE. And 500 mil isn't exactly 'an incredible amount'.
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Max Thorus
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Posted - 2009.02.16 14:54:00 -
[7]
The little HighSec Pirates life became more difficult? 
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.16 15:04:00 -
[8]
Have no problems with things becoming more difficult or challenging. But Immunity is something EVE shouldn't have, and atm with an Orca you're immune.
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sir gankalot
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Posted - 2009.02.16 15:26:00 -
[9]
So, what's the difference exactly from being able to mine into the cargohold of a hulk? Besides scale?
That's 100% fail safe, no way to steal ore that way.
But here's an idea for ya: join corp of miner you want to rob. Work your way up to getting corp hangar rights. Sit next to orca with your own orca, wait for corp hangar to fill, take all the ore out of it and put it in your own Orca cargohold. Ho wait, that's not 100% fail safe!!1!
Guess I broke your thread huh? 
Nother suggestion: join random corp, skip ore stealing, just fire away at corpmates without concord interfering 
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.16 16:06:00 -
[10]
Come back when you are capable of rational thought.
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sir gankalot
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Posted - 2009.02.16 16:30:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Come back when you are capable of rational thought.
Talking to yourself ey? 
Everything I said is as it is, I know it must suck for you but I only state things that are completely true. But feel free to take a shot at any of my statements.
Or make another reply without arguments but with insults like you just did if you like. It still won't make you right and as for the thread, well, that was going nowhere from the moment you hit the post button so nobody is going to mind anyway. 
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Max Thorus
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Posted - 2009.02.16 16:45:00 -
[12]
Ok, how long would you survive, if you flip a can in mining ops with an Orca and like 4-8 Hulks?
Ya, you expect to loose your flip boat and then? You come with a BS?
If youre lucky you will be able to kill maybe one Hulk before around 50 drones dismantle your BS while your tackled by em.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.16 16:52:00 -
[13]
Ok, lets check your amazing reasoning.
Originally by: sir gankalot
So, what's the difference exactly from being able to mine into the cargohold of a hulk? Besides scale?
That's 100% fail safe, no way to steal ore that way.
But here's an idea for ya: join corp of miner you want to rob. Work your way up to getting corp hangar rights. Sit next to orca with your own orca, wait for corp hangar to fill, take all the ore out of it and put it in your own Orca cargohold. Ho wait, that's not 100% fail safe!!1!
Guess I broke your thread huh?
Nother suggestion: join random corp, skip ore stealing, just fire away at corpmates without concord interfering
Hulk has a limited cargo (even when expanded) and will have to dock up to unload ore, meaning less optimised ore/hour. It's also ONE ship so as with every ship; as long as it doesn't get suicided it's cargo is safe (apart from other ways ofcourse).
With an orca several miners can drop their ore off in complete 100% safety and then the orca can dock up unload and be back WAY before the miner's cargo hold is filled up again. This also means that he doesn't have to invest in expanded cargo holds but he can fit more mining upgrades, increasing his yield even MORE.
On your join the corp thing; that would be the same as saying that low sec piracy can be completely removed as it's just as easy to join a corp and then start killing your corp mates. This reasoning just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Especially not since you tell me to use my own orca (?) to then steal from the other's hangar(?).
As stated earlier; come back when you can come up with some actual reasoning instead of obvious flamebait, but tbh I like replying to this flamebait as it gives me the opportunity to expand why I disagree with the situation as is. It may reach more people that way.
Thanks.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.16 16:53:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Max Thorus
Ok, how long would you survive, if you flip a can in mining ops with an Orca and like 4-8 Hulks?
Ya, you expect to loose your flip boat and then? You come with a BS?
If youre lucky you will be able to kill maybe one Hulk before around 50 drones dismantle your BS while your tackled by em.
Our Confirmed Kills list states otherwise.
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Ms Delerium
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Posted - 2009.02.16 16:54:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Max Thorus
Ok, how long would you survive, if you flip a can in mining ops with an Orca and like 4-8 Hulks?
Ya, you expect to loose your flip boat and then? You come with a BS?
If youre lucky you will be able to kill maybe one Hulk before around 50 drones dismantle your BS while your tackled by em.
I guess you are horribly informed how miners playstyle is
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.16 16:56:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Ms Delerium
Originally by: Max Thorus
Ok, how long would you survive, if you flip a can in mining ops with an Orca and like 4-8 Hulks?
Ya, you expect to loose your flip boat and then? You come with a BS?
If youre lucky you will be able to kill maybe one Hulk before around 50 drones dismantle your BS while your tackled by em.
I guess you are horribly informed how miners playstyle is
Or mine, for that matter
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sir gankalot
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Posted - 2009.02.16 17:00:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Max Thorus
Ok, how long would you survive, if you flip a can in mining ops with an Orca and like 4-8 Hulks?
Ya, you expect to loose your flip boat and then? You come with a BS?
If youre lucky you will be able to kill maybe one Hulk before around 50 drones dismantle your BS while your tackled by em.
Well, I would simply not engage in such a case, I think no can flipper will.
But like I said, the Orca gives us nothing new besides larger scale, and guess what, that's what it was designed to do....
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sir gankalot
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Posted - 2009.02.16 17:41:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Ok, lets check your amazing reasoning.
Hulk has a limited cargo (even when expanded) and will have to dock up to unload ore, meaning less optimised ore/hour. It's also ONE ship so as with every ship; as long as it doesn't get suicided it's cargo is safe (apart from other ways ofcourse).
With an orca several miners can drop their ore off in complete 100% safety and then the orca can dock up unload and be back WAY before the miner's cargo hold is filled up again. This also means that he doesn't have to invest in expanded cargo holds but he can fit more mining upgrades, increasing his yield even MORE.
Like I stated several times, it just ups the scale. Mining without having risk of ore theft was always possible, transfering it to a hauler without risk too. There is such a thing as secure containers which you can anchor. Hell, you as a can flipper should know, it's the first advice flippers give when someone is *****ing his ore got stolen. It's even safer than using corp hangar in Orca. Only problem is, it's a ***** to do.
So, the orca makes it easier and ups the scale of what was already possible. Gee, not something you would expect from a (sub)capital mining support ship. Or is it?
Quote:
On your join the corp thing; that would be the same as saying that low sec piracy can be completely removed as it's just as easy to join a corp and then start killing your corp mates. This reasoning just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Especially not since you tell me to use my own orca (?) to then steal from the other's hangar(?).
I was just giving you some ideas, like I said, it is entirely possible, just takes some effort, but I guess you're looking for quick easy targets. And yes, your own orca to steal ore from corp hangar of other orca. Or any other boat with a cargohold, I just mentioned orca for it's huge cargohold and to add some irony.
Well, statements still stand 
Nother thing, most miners who aren't complete noobs will not have their ore stolen and/or be tricked into agressing you. So if the Orca was "fixed" it would not yield you any significant increase of targets. Which makes this entire discussion rather hypothetical. Now I don't mind that one bit, but you might be more pragmatic, in that case I advise you to find other ideas to get more 'yarrr' going on in hi-sec. Just one of my friendly tips.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.16 17:46:00 -
[19]
There is a safety vs mining yield, safer game play at the cost of lower yield due to using secure cans or docking up and unloading ore. It's the main reason why CCP refuses to increase secure can sizes; as to have a CHOICE between optimised yield OR safety.
Now it's AND faster AND 100% safe, and that's not how it should be.
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sir gankalot
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Posted - 2009.02.16 18:23:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
There is a safety vs mining yield, safer game play at the cost of lower yield due to using secure cans or docking up and unloading ore. It's the main reason why CCP refuses to increase secure can sizes; as to have a CHOICE between optimised yield OR safety.
Now it's AND faster AND 100% safe, and that's not how it should be.
As I described, it's not 100% safe. Very hard to get at, but not 100% safe. Even without secure cans, like I said, experienced miners will not have their ore stolen anyway. They just park hauler next to Hulk, jet can, transfer quick.
If you wanna talk about flawed safety/mining yield ratio, I guess you're kinda miffed with secure containers too. They're so small they basicly have no use for a skilled miner. Everybody who does not have corp/alt hauler support flying a hulk will just cargohold mine, unless in a system they deem as 'safe'.
Using your logic, even HAVING a hauler is bad in the first place, it increases yield and safety compared to jet can mining with just a single hulk, docking up and switching to hauler to go and empty your can.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.16 18:32:00 -
[21]
Nope.
I have no problems with people using secure cans
I have no problems with people moving back and forth
I have no problems with people putting in effort (security or just being smart)
I have no problems with people trying the quick switch trick, in fact I LOVE it. Gives me plenty kills.
I have no problems with things being difficult, challenging or needing effort
I have no problems with people accepting lower rewards to increase their security
I DO have problems with a 100% failsafe way of doing things while at the same time increasing rewards.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Worlds End Consortium
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Posted - 2009.02.16 18:41:00 -
[22]
I love it when a pirate turns into a 3 year old and starts throwing a tantrum.
The Orca was designed for this you jackass.... grow a fricken brain.
Go to 0.0 and youll find plenty to shoot.
===============
CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre
www.shadowcadre.com
===============
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Karentaki
Gallente
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.02.16 19:17:00 -
[23]
To be honest this is working as it should. As you yourself admit they are not 100% safe. There is still risk from suicide ganking (there are even a couple of threads about this atm), and you must accept that an orca is a considerable investment for this 'safety'.
Quote:
EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
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sir gankalot
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Posted - 2009.02.16 19:17:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Nope.
I have no problems with people trying the quick switch trick, in fact I LOVE it. Gives me plenty kills.
You do realise you only get those kills cause you're exploiting a bug right?
Namely that in case of lag or being very slow at the miner's side you are able to steal the ore while his client gives no warning that he is about to steal.
If that isn't an easy kill I don't know what is. For all you know CCP designed the orca to circumvent this bug.
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Abulurd Boniface
Gallente
Mercantile Exchange for Mining And Exploration
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Posted - 2009.02.16 19:26:00 -
[25]
I am but a doe-eyed blinking innocent little carebear, I know nothing of the big world you people so smoothly operate in.
Tell me, educate me, if combat is that thing that you so dearly crave, why not just go down into the netherworld of low to nul security where you can maim and slaughter to your heart's content? Is that not what you want? Do you not seek the shrieking-yet-brutally-curtailed howls of pain as the air vents from the compromised space frame into the endless void between the stars?
Do you not crave the spectacular effects of giant ships succumbing to the onslaught of your mighty weapons as their structure buckles under explosion after explosion of the <insert the ammunition type of your preference> that you so generously inflict upon them?
Do you not seek to mull around in the cloud of expanding debris, grasping for that sacred prize of all: loot, SWEET MERCIFUL LOOT!, that you can raise in your hands and display to your brethren while you expel a blood-curdling growl from your lungs as you celebrate your latest fabulous victory against the impossible odds that you overcame so as to make a name for yourself in the New Eden demesne? Is the greater good not the curt nod of acceptance as your peers stand in silent awe, maybe even [yes, praise the light of the very stars!] in jealous contempt, of the glory that you gather as your fearful adversaries whisper your name in silence throughout the galaxy so that it preceeds you as a cloud of quickly expanding toxic gas that steals the very breath from those who have the audacity to oppose you?
Art thou not the master corruptor? Art thou not the scourge of the universe, is there any bounty that can atone for the villainy that you so generously foist upon all who dare take up arms against you?
Is the greatest prize New Eden has to offer not merely a pittance in recognition of that marvellous creature that here stands before us, lamenting the meager contents of a pedestrian container, looking like a stray dog for the puny solace of the equivalent of a half-eaten meal? Are we to believe that our blood is enough to still your great, vast hunger? Was this the goal that you embarked on in your voyage between the stars? Are they synonyms now: pirate, pauper, peon?
Or could it be, perish the thought, that anything that offers more resistance than a weak shield and a thick hull, is too much of a challenge for those who would cackle with glee over yet another victory over the defenceless?
Come, let's have mercy on the beggars. I must have some refuse left after last night's efforts. I shall send you a million ISK so that you at least won't be without the benefits of an honest day's work even though you clearly haven't seen one yourself.
No need to thank me, the table is never so empty that there are no crumbs left for the hungry.
Abulurd
ME ME
CEO
Note: Corporate Comptroller, please send one million ISK to the account of Tzar'im. Maybe he can buy some gizmo to pretend victory among his friends.
For good to survive it suffices for evil to acquire a deadly, incapacitating disease. |
Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.16 19:29:00 -
[26]
I petitioned myself for doing it a long time ago the reply was that nothing odd had happened. I also don't believe in the "I never got a warning message" while at the same time stating "I didn't have messages turned off". You know full well how eager people are to tell the truth if they gain by telling a lie.
Sneaky? yes, avoidable? Think so, yes. It often takes a LONG time before the target goes either flashy or the ore landing in my can, indicating that the hauler got the warning and gave it some thought before clicking yes/no.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.16 19:31:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Abulurd Boniface
I am but a doe-eyed blinking innocent little carebear, I know nothing of the big world you people so smoothly operate in.
Tell me, educate me, if combat is that thing that you so dearly crave, why not just go down into the netherworld of low to nul security where you can maim and slaughter to your heart's content? Is that not what you want? Do you not seek the shrieking-yet-brutally-curtailed howls of pain as the air vents from the compromised space frame into the endless void between the stars?
Do you not crave the spectacular effects of giant ships succumbing to the onslaught of your mighty weapons as their structure buckles under explosion after explosion of the <insert the ammunition type of your preference> that you so generously inflict upon them?
Do you not seek to mull around in the cloud of expanding debris, grasping for that sacred prize of all: loot, SWEET MERCIFUL LOOT!, that you can raise in your hands and display to your brethren while you expel a blood-curdling growl from your lungs as you celebrate your latest fabulous victory against the impossible odds that you overcame so as to make a name for yourself in the New Eden demesne? Is the greater good not the curt nod of acceptance as your peers stand in silent awe, maybe even [yes, praise the light of the very stars!] in jealous contempt, of the glory that you gather as your fearful adversaries whisper your name in silence throughout the galaxy so that it preceeds you as a cloud of quickly expanding toxic gas that steals the very breath from those who have the audacity to oppose you?
Art thou not the master corruptor? Art thou not the scourge of the universe, is there any bounty that can atone for the villainy that you so generously foist upon all who dare take up arms against you?
Is the greatest prize New Eden has to offer not merely a pittance in recognition of that marvellous creature that here stands before us, lamenting the meager contents of a pedestrian container, looking like a stray dog for the puny solace of the equivalent of a half-eaten meal? Are we to believe that our blood is enough to still your great, vast hunger? Was this the goal that you embarked on in your voyage between the stars? Are they synonyms now: pirate, pauper, peon?
Or could it be, perish the thought, that anything that offers more resistance than a weak shield and a thick hull, is too much of a challenge for those who would cackle with glee over yet another victory over the defenceless?
Come, let's have mercy on the beggars. I must have some refuse left after last night's efforts. I shall send you a million ISK so that you at least won't be without the benefits of an honest day's work even though you clearly haven't seen one yourself.
No need to thank me, the table is never so empty that there are no crumbs left for the hungry.
Abulurd
ME ME
CEO
Note: Corporate Comptroller, please send one million ISK to the account of Tzar'im. Maybe he can buy some gizmo to pretend victory among his friends.
Nice writeup, must admit. Still somehow stating that high sec should be safe/left alone and that 'true' stuff happens in low sec or 0.0 shows that you don't exactly understand EVE.
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sir gankalot
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Posted - 2009.02.16 19:57:00 -
[28]
Edited by: sir gankalot on 16/02/2009 19:59:23
Edited by: sir gankalot on 16/02/2009 19:58:01
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 16/02/2009 19:31:48
@Gank
I petitioned myself for doing it a long time ago the reply was that nothing odd had happened. I also don't believe in the "I never got a warning message" while at the same time stating "I didn't have messages turned off". You know full well how eager people are to tell the truth if they gain by telling a lie.
Try it yourself, I have reproduced this bug b4. It DOES not warn you. I lost me a ship this way and petitioned it too. Response was "logs show you stole, nothing odd. But file a bug report if you are sure". So I did. Still in processing.
Ppl who wanna try for themselves: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=981128&page=2#44
Reproduced it with the "nearly full cargohold"-trick cause you can't exactly predict lag but I'm guessing it works the same way.
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.02.16 20:18:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Nice writeup, must admit. Still somehow stating that high sec should be safe/left alone and that 'true' stuff happens in low sec or 0.0 shows that you don't exactly understand EVE.
Empire is never safe and is never 'left alone'
Use a wardec, or suicide ship and achieve the same results. |
Greenbolt
Minmatar
The Suicide Kings
True Reign
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Posted - 2009.02.16 20:32:00 -
[30]
I sense pirate tears.
Move valuable than carebear tears any day.
If there in a corp working together with an orca war dec em hunt em slay em. profit.
If there in npc corp but they are clustered close enough for an orca...you can consider suicide bombing them. (Not sure how that works these days).
Whats that phrase? Adapt or move on.
(Though slightly off topic..I hate NPC corps for any character older than the trial period)
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Scordite -Who was it that said that flying minmatar is kinda like going down a flight of stairs on an office chair while firing an uzi? |
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Luzz Bightyear
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Posted - 2009.02.16 21:26:00 -
[31]
Working as intended much?
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####### > Fear my mighty Ibis! :-D |
Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.16 21:30:00 -
[32]
Originally by: sir gankalot
Edited by: sir gankalot on 16/02/2009 19:59:23
Edited by: sir gankalot on 16/02/2009 19:58:01
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 16/02/2009 19:31:48
@Gank
I petitioned myself for doing it a long time ago the reply was that nothing odd had happened. I also don't believe in the "I never got a warning message" while at the same time stating "I didn't have messages turned off". You know full well how eager people are to tell the truth if they gain by telling a lie.
Try it yourself, I have reproduced this bug b4. It DOES not warn you. I lost me a ship this way and petitioned it too. Response was "logs show you stole, nothing odd. But file a bug report if you are sure". So I did. Still in processing.
Ppl who wanna try for themselves: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=981128&page=2#44
Reproduced it with the "nearly full cargohold"-trick cause you can't exactly predict lag but I'm guessing it works the same way.
Well, as it never happened to me (I don't mine) I can only go by what a GM tells me. Keep me updated on what happens to that bug report/petition.
In the mean time I'll still stand by what I say, regardless of the trolling folks; being able to drop goods/ore directly from one ship into another without needing an extra step makes things TOO easy.
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Max Thorus
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Posted - 2009.02.16 22:53:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
being able to drop goods/ore directly from one ship into another without needing an extra step makes things TOO easy.
Thats total bull****, it wouldnt be difficult to anchor a GSC between those ships.
Will you then cry cuz you cant access that GSC?
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.16 23:02:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Max Thorus
Originally by: Tzar'rim
being able to drop goods/ore directly from one ship into another without needing an extra step makes things TOO easy.
Thats total bull****, it wouldnt be difficult to anchor a GSC between those ships.
Will you then cry cuz you cant access that GSC?
If you'd have actually read the thread then you would have understood that no, I don't mind that. It takes effort and you can't move a lot of ore at the same time. You're also confined to a single spot. But feel free to troll without actually reading threads.
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Nnamuachs
Caldari
Kiith Paktu
Veneratio Venator Alliance
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Posted - 2009.02.16 23:34:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Greenbolt
I sense pirate tears.
Move valuable than carebear tears any day.
If there in a corp working together with an orca war dec em hunt em slay em. profit.
If there in npc corp but they are clustered close enough for an orca...you can consider suicide bombing them. (Not sure how that works these days).
Whats that phrase? Adapt or move on.
(Though slightly off topic..I hate NPC corps for any character older than the trial period)
Pretty sure rookie corps cant use the corporate hangar on an orca because it requires permissions, even for being the pilot of the ship, to get things out of it.
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Lord WarATron
Amarr
Black Nova Corp
KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.02.17 00:00:00 -
[36]
Nerfing a ship just so you can rely on a canflip is not a good method of game balance. If anything, wardec's should be easier.
Back to point, if someone wants to spend a pile of cash on a ship just so they can dump directly into cargo, then its time for you to adapt from your can flipping ways. The old story of adapt or die springs to mind......
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Billion Isk Mission |
Kanikara
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.17 04:45:00 -
[37]
Originally by: sir gankalot
Edited by: sir gankalot on 16/02/2009 19:59:23
Edited by: sir gankalot on 16/02/2009 19:58:01
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 16/02/2009 19:31:48
@Gank
I petitioned myself for doing it a long time ago the reply was that nothing odd had happened. I also don't believe in the "I never got a warning message" while at the same time stating "I didn't have messages turned off". You know full well how eager people are to tell the truth if they gain by telling a lie.
Try it yourself, I have reproduced this bug b4. It DOES not warn you. I lost me a ship this way and petitioned it too. Response was "logs show you stole, nothing odd. But file a bug report if you are sure". So I did. Still in processing.
Ppl who wanna try for themselves: http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=981128&page=2#44
Reproduced it with the "nearly full cargohold"-trick cause you can't exactly predict lag but I'm guessing it works the same way.
Could also be done by simply being fast enough to stack/sort the ore in their can (or to snatch it all into your can), haven't tested that lately though been on hiatus...
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Kanikara
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.17 04:46:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Nnamuachs
Originally by: Greenbolt
I sense pirate tears.
Move valuable than carebear tears any day.
If there in a corp working together with an orca war dec em hunt em slay em. profit.
If there in npc corp but they are clustered close enough for an orca...you can consider suicide bombing them. (Not sure how that works these days).
Whats that phrase? Adapt or move on.
(Though slightly off topic..I hate NPC corps for any character older than the trial period)
Pretty sure rookie corps cant use the corporate hangar on an orca because it requires permissions, even for being the pilot of the ship, to get things out of it.
They can still drop ore into the hangars, and the pilot always has access to the hangars of their ship.
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Kanikara
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.17 04:49:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Originally by: Max Thorus
Originally by: Tzar'rim
being able to drop goods/ore directly from one ship into another without needing an extra step makes things TOO easy.
Thats total bull****, it wouldnt be difficult to anchor a GSC between those ships.
Will you then cry cuz you cant access that GSC?
If you'd have actually read the thread then you would have understood that no, I don't mind that. It takes effort and you can't move a lot of ore at the same time. You're also confined to a single spot. But feel free to troll without actually reading threads.
Umm hauler on station... pulling a jetcan at a time back to station while the miner cycle for the next load (in cargo rigged hulks with upgrades in the low they can handle the time for the itty v or transport to come back)
Easy enough to unachor and move the can with a tractor as needed...
This sounds like someone upset that the easy prey has disappeared. But keep looking not everyone has an orca on hand.
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Taliph Stillwood
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Posted - 2009.02.17 05:49:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Nope.
I have no problems with people using secure cans
I have no problems with people moving back and forth
I have no problems with people putting in effort (security or just being smart)
bolded: what do you think bringing other people is? an orca can easily be classified as security against can flippers.
Originally by: Tzar'rim
I have no problems with people trying the quick switch trick, in fact I LOVE it. Gives me plenty kills.
I have no problems with things being difficult, challenging or needing effort
I have no problems with people accepting lower rewards to increase their security
I DO have problems with a 100% failsafe way of doing things while at the same time increasing rewards.
They are lowering the rewards... how many people have to be in hulks in the gang to make up for losing a hulk to add an orca?
I find it vastly humorous that a can flipper is trying to argue risk vs reward when they tend to target newbs for the easy loot and lulz.
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Fahtim Meidires
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.17 06:12:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Taliph Stillwood
They are lowering the rewards... how many people have to be in hulks in the gang to make up for losing a hulk to add an orca?
Enough that's it's worth encouraging group behavior.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.17 09:58:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 17/02/2009 09:59:42
Originally by: Taliph Stillwood
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Nope.
I have no problems with people using secure cans
I have no problems with people moving back and forth
I have no problems with people putting in effort (security or just being smart)
bolded: what do you think bringing other people is? an orca can easily be classified as security against can flippers.
Originally by: Tzar'rim
I have no problems with people trying the quick switch trick, in fact I LOVE it. Gives me plenty kills.
I have no problems with things being difficult, challenging or needing effort
I have no problems with people accepting lower rewards to increase their security
I DO have problems with a 100% failsafe way of doing things while at the same time increasing rewards.
They are lowering the rewards... how many people have to be in hulks in the gang to make up for losing a hulk to add an orca?
I find it vastly humorous that a can flipper is trying to argue risk vs reward when they tend to target newbs for the easy loot and lulz.
I see you missed out the "I have no problems with things being more difficult or challenging", I do have problems with things being impossible. Apart from that an Orca gives mining bonuses in case you haven't realised, so the "but they need an extra pilot for it" doesn't exactly hold any ground.
Also; you're mistaken on the 'targeting newbs' part, it shows that you don't really understand the whole concept.
To the other poster going "but they can tractor cans", tractoring cans still gives an opportunity, it's not completely safe AND the Orca pilot HAS to be alert and not AFK. As it is now the Orca doesn't even need to be actively used as the whole thing is done by the miners.
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Taliph Stillwood
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Posted - 2009.02.17 11:41:00 -
[43]
if my math is correct, they would need to have a gang of over 25 people in hulks in order for the command bonus's to become more profitable for that one orca pilot to not have brought a hulk as well...
so either they are sacrificing mining yield for added security or you are targeting large corp operations that would swarm you with drones the second you started flashing.
So, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and not think you a complete moron, by assuming that you are targeting ops with 3-5 pilots. With that assumption, and your reasoning that I bolded in my previous post:
Originally by: Tzar'rim
I have no problems with people accepting lower rewards to increase their security
your argument is moot, and your suggestion defunct.
Targeting anyone mining is lowering your risk. Otherwise, why would anyone be a can flipper? The ore you would be able to carry in one hauler load is about enough to pay for the hauler, and a second hauler to replace it (assuming you use cargo expanders) unless you are one of the fabled 0.0 can flippers, but then you would be complaining about the rorq instead.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.17 11:51:00 -
[44]
Your'e forgetting one thing; the hauler that's normally needed to move the ore, he's replaced by the Orca so you actually GAIN mining yield due to the fleet bonuses. Unless ofcourse you do the "lets all mine 20 cans full of ore and when we're done we'll all grab haulers and go pick it up". But that would be stupid and luckily/sadly I don't see people THAT stupid too much.
You're also mistaken in the fact that I actually care about the ore, or some hauler or silly Retriever dropping Cargo Expander 2's.
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Taliph Stillwood
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Posted - 2009.02.17 11:59:00 -
[45]
ok, so you are just interested in easy kills for your killboard... too bad the "carebears" are now starting to outsmart you, lol (and the bug, if your interest really is can switching)
and actually, with a 3-5 man op, why sac a pilot to a hauler when a properly rigged hulk can warp back to station to drop their own loads without losing nearly as much mining yield? that hauler would only "save" one mining cycle per ~10 min, while losing that pilot's mining cycles for the entire time
regardless, can flipping in highsec is the most lol profession in the game... you would make better isk salvaging belt wrecks, but you aren't interested in the isk...
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.17 12:27:00 -
[46]
Yesterday well over 5 billion was destroyed due to our actions (could be more, it's a guesstimate as we stopped using a KB), and wouldn't I have had the "you're not within 1500m of the wreck" bug we'd have looted at least 2 bil more than the 150ish mil we did.
Is that a whole lot? no but we're having fun doing it and we gain cash in the process, I'd rather have that than optimise my income while being bored to a point my braincells start to melt.
Also, you're not debating the issue but are just voicing your dislike/lack of knowledge on my chosen passtime. My statement still stands; Being able to mine directly into an AFK Orca with a HUGE cargohold AND which gives bonuses is silly. I don't mind the cargohold or the bonuses, I midn the 100% safety issue.
In the mean time your replying (or trolling, not sure on it) keeps this thread nicely bumped, so thanks I guess.
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Kanikara
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.17 13:47:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Taliph Stillwood
if my math is correct, they would need to have a gang of over 25 people in hulks in order for the command bonus's to become more profitable for that one orca pilot to not have brought a hulk as well...
so either they are sacrificing mining yield for added security or you are targeting large corp operations that would swarm you with drones the second you started flashing.
So, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, and not think you a complete moron, by assuming that you are targeting ops with 3-5 pilots. With that assumption, and your reasoning that I bolded in my previous post:
Originally by: Tzar'rim
I have no problems with people accepting lower rewards to increase their security
your argument is moot, and your suggestion defunct.
Targeting anyone mining is lowering your risk. Otherwise, why would anyone be a can flipper? The ore you would be able to carry in one hauler load is about enough to pay for the hauler, and a second hauler to replace it (assuming you use cargo expanders) unless you are one of the fabled 0.0 can flippers, but then you would be complaining about the rorq instead.
Actually the break even/gain is 5 hulks + 1 Orca vs 6 Hulks with the orca bonuses using the cycle time reduction gang link.
A common fit for a high security orca is LSE IIs in all the mids for a large buffer tank; Expanded Cargohold IIs in the lows; Ganglink, tractor, salvager in the highs for cleaning up rat kills from the drones.
With T1 rigs it comes out to about 120k m3 cargo capacity. Which for the hulks is only around 5-6 cycles for the fleet... (figure a yield of around 4.5k * 5 = 22.5k m3 per cycle; so about 5 cycles before the orca has to dock. One reason many use the corp hangar as a GSC with 2 haulers to take turns emptying it allowing the Orca to stay out there with boosts)
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Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic
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Posted - 2009.02.17 14:09:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
In the mean time your replying (or trolling, not sure on it) keeps this thread nicely bumped, so thanks I guess.
It's staying bumped, but it has 0 thumbs-up supports so far out of 46 replies. At this rate it might soon match the "Pay for skill gain" thread for reply-to-support ratio.
Activity does not equal progress.
~ Santiago Fahahrri
Galactic Geographic |
Kanikara
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.17 14:15:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri
Originally by: Tzar'rim
In the mean time your replying (or trolling, not sure on it) keeps this thread nicely bumped, so thanks I guess.
It's staying bumped, but it has 0 thumbs-up supports so far out of 46 replies. At this rate it might soon match the "Pay for skill gain" thread for reply-to-support ratio.
Activity does not equal progress.
Reminds me of the whines about nerfing secure containers... yes there were whinges about GSC's being unhackable and making mining too safe with miners using them as transfer canisters...
Net result there was nothing, just database load issues resulted in them being removed over time and from higher security space.
Now it's the piwhat whines about the Orca in high security...
Adapt, don't whine...
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Odetta Harpy
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Posted - 2009.02.17 14:17:00 -
[50]
this topic has no porpose, go 2 low sec and go after people that can defend themselves instead of moaning about how you cant kill empire miners with cheap tricks.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Worlds End Consortium
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Posted - 2009.02.17 15:14:00 -
[51]
I figured it out... he got pwn3d by an Orca... and now hes whining over epic failness.
That's why hes posting this stupid thread.
===============
CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre
www.shadowcadre.com
===============
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.02.17 15:46:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Drake Draconis
I figured it out... he got pwn3d by an Orca... and now hes whining over epic failness.
That's why hes posting this stupid thread.
Or goaded the wrong Hulk/Orca team into a can flip.
Gist tank Hulk and drone spec pilot ftw |
Morgan Lorus
Caldari
Unstable Reaction Inc.
North Domain Defense Forces
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Posted - 2009.02.17 17:08:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Taliph Stillwood
if my math is correct, they would need to have a gang of over 25 people in hulks in order for the command bonus's to become more profitable for that one orca pilot to not have brought a hulk as well...
An Orca gives a total bonus of 55.14% to a miners per minute yield.
With your maths, yield of 25 Hulks + Orca = yield of 38.785 Hulks without Orca.
So already in a group of 3, its worth to switch one Hulk for an Orca. (2 Hulks+Orca = 3.1 Hulks)
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Abulurd Boniface
Gallente
Mercantile Exchange for Mining And Exploration
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Posted - 2009.02.17 17:32:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Being able to mine directly into an AFK Orca with a HUGE cargohold AND which gives bonuses is silly. I don't mind the cargohold or the bonuses, I midn the 100% safety issue.
Without getting too much further into this, the Hulk is actually not dropping the ore directly into the Orca's cargohold, the ore is sent to the corporate hangar which has a fixed size of 40km3. So, you won't be afk-Orcaing for too long.
Huge is as huge does. The corporate hangar inclusive, total cargo capacity [using expensive rigs] is going to be... 165km3-ish ore? It's a fun amount of ore, it's not going to buy the old lady a pair of new shoes and paying someone to make 60 jumps up and down to go and collect them.
It's a fun boat, an Orca, it's not the holy grail either, buddy.
Abulurd Boniface
ME ME
CEO
For good to survive it suffices for evil to acquire a deadly, incapacitating disease. |
Kanikara
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.17 17:37:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Drake Draconis
I figured it out... he got pwn3d by an Orca... and now hes whining over epic failness.
That's why hes posting this stupid thread.
Wouldn't be the first... hell the eve uni had a pilot get 2 kills in their orca. So there are some out there that will eat the unwary for lunch.
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Fahtim Meidires
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.02.17 17:54:00 -
[56]
You're thinking about it the wrong way.
An Orca is a secure canister with an engine and tractor beams. (What CCP wanted)
thus:
An Orca is a tractor-enhanced ship with a corp hangar array. (CCP's implementation)
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Lurana Lay
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.17 19:15:00 -
[57]
Posting in a "I have no ideas and can't hang in Low Sec or 0.0" thread.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.17 21:57:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 17/02/2009 21:59:45
Originally by: Greenbolt
I sense pirate tears.
Move valuable than carebear tears any day.
If there in a corp working together with an orca war dec em hunt em slay em. profit.
If there in npc corp but they are clustered close enough for an orca...you can consider suicide bombing them. (Not sure how that works these days).
Whats that phrase? Adapt or move on.
(Though slightly off topic..I hate NPC corps for any character older than the trial period)
NPC corp = no corp hangar = almost useless orca
Originally by: Kanikara
They can still drop ore into the hangars, and the pilot always has access to the hangars of their ship.
I doubt that, as a corpmate without roles was happy when he received them saying "now I can access my orca hangars"
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Ashen Angel
Minmatar
Eve University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2009.02.17 22:20:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 17/02/2009 21:59:45
Originally by: Greenbolt
I sense pirate tears.
Move valuable than carebear tears any day.
If there in a corp working together with an orca war dec em hunt em slay em. profit.
If there in npc corp but they are clustered close enough for an orca...you can consider suicide bombing them. (Not sure how that works these days).
Whats that phrase? Adapt or move on.
(Though slightly off topic..I hate NPC corps for any character older than the trial period)
NPC corp = no corp hangar = almost useless orca
Originally by: Kanikara
They can still drop ore into the hangars, and the pilot always has access to the hangars of their ship.
I doubt that, as a corpmate without roles was happy when he received them saying "now I can access my orca hangars"
The corp hangar and ship maintenance bay do work in npc corps and for those without roles. You are told access denied, but have full access anyway to the ship's corporate hangars. Same with any ship using a corporate hangar, the pilot always has full access to any part of the ship.
A npc corporation member can drop into the corp hangar even though there are no roles (they get the message about you can not recover these items if you continue... )
EVE University - Mining Fleet : Mining Specialist
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De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Special Projects Executive
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Posted - 2009.02.17 22:21:00 -
[60]
Edited by: De''Veldrin on 17/02/2009 22:21:56
You can also fleet with an Orca and you can access the hangars even if you aren't in the same corp, as long as they set up the permissions correctly. We do this alot with some associates.
As for the OP: If you don't like folks mining into their Orcas, be all means start shooting at them. Blowing up the Orca will certainly solve your perceived problem. Of course if you do that enough everyone will just start mining in Hulks again - but who doesn't want to mount strip miners on a Mammoth? I mean really?
--Vel
There is no right or wrong way. There is only what works and what leaves you waking up in a clone vat. |
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Astria Tiphareth
Caldari
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2009.02.18 22:26:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 18/02/2009 22:28:29
Suicide their Orca or wardec them, as to use the corporation hanger they must be non-NPC. That sort of loss, done a couple of times, and they'll be back to jetcans before you know it.
The option is there, it's not 100% immunity, it's just not an option you're prepared to take.
___
My views may not represent those of my corporation, which is why I never get invited to those diplomatic parties...
Environmental Effects
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Ashen Angel
Minmatar
Eve University
Ivy League
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Posted - 2009.02.19 00:36:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Astria Tiphareth
Edited by: Astria Tiphareth on 18/02/2009 22:28:29
Suicide their Orca or wardec them, as to use the corporation hanger they must be non-NPC. That sort of loss, done a couple of times, and they'll be back to jetcans before you know it.
The option is there, it's not 100% immunity, it's just not an option you're prepared to take.
They can use the corporate hangar on the orca even in npc corporations... same as any ship equipped with one.
A npc corp pilot can not pull out of the ship, unless they are the pilot of the ship though.
But the hangar can be used to drop items into the orca for the pilot to move around.
EVE University - Mining Fleet : Mining Specialist
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Kanikara
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.19 01:46:00 -
[63]
yeah the only thing related to corp hangars in an npc corp is... the station based ones. The tabs and ship hangars are still accessible.
Besides: to get the benefit of the orca... they have to really train the leadership skills (yep, really hurts the achura min/max crowd...)
Not to mention the effort (even if it's rl work to earn enough to sell the gtcs) to afford the orca and implants
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2009.02.19 01:58:00 -
[64]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Our Confirmed Kills list states otherwise.
So let me get this straight - you're claiming that mining into an Orca is 100% safe, yet you have Orca/Hulk fleets on your confirmed kill list?
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Kanikara
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.19 02:21:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Our Confirmed Kills list states otherwise.
So let me get this straight - you're claiming that mining into an Orca is 100% safe, yet you have Orca/Hulk fleets on your confirmed kill list?
but but he said they don't use a kill board anymore...
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2009.02.19 02:24:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Kanikara
but but he said they don't use a kill board anymore...
No, apparently they use a "confirmed kill list" which is not a "kill board".
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.19 21:31:00 -
[67]
My my, what bunch of nice replies showing exactly what I figured would happen; people who either don't understand the situation, somehow think that because it's not their preferred playstyle it therefore has no merit or are frantically trying to defend their advantage (which is ok ofcourse, although the fact that there's no debate but rather crap posting says enough).
The reason we don't have a KB anymore is because we can't be bothered with the "oooh we destroyed x mil!!!!!oneeleventy". We kill a target and it shows up on the corp confirmed list, you know the one... in your corporation window, hence the "confirmed kills" name as... that's how it's named.
Most of you are incapable or unwilling to actually debate the real issue, the fact that being able to directly move goods into an Orca from another ship (in this case a miner) isn't exactly in "EVE's spirit" as it's a 100% safe operation while at the same time benefitting from the Orca itself. Oh well, I'll keep voicing my opinion on this. Who knows what good it will do.
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Worlds End Consortium
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Posted - 2009.02.19 21:45:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Drake Draconis on 19/02/2009 21:46:05
Originally by: Tzar'rim
My my, what bunch of nice replies showing exactly what I figured would happen; people who either don't understand the situation, somehow think that because it's not their preferred playstyle it therefore has no merit or are frantically trying to defend their advantage (which is ok ofcourse, although the fact that there's no debate but rather crap posting says enough).
The reason we don't have a KB anymore is because we can't be bothered with the "oooh we destroyed x mil!!!!!oneeleventy". We kill a target and it shows up on the corp confirmed list, you know the one... in your corporation window, hence the "confirmed kills" name as... that's how it's named.
Most of you are incapable or unwilling to actually debate the real issue, the fact that being able to directly move goods into an Orca from another ship (in this case a miner) isn't exactly in "EVE's spirit" as it's a 100% safe operation while at the same time benefitting from the Orca itself. Oh well, I'll keep voicing my opinion on this. Who knows what good it will do.
*shoves a baby pacifier into OP's mouth*
Get a backbone... go to 0.0 and go pirate there.
Stop your cryin.
It's not a matter of people who didn't understand or didn't read... its you refusing to use your stupid brain.
Don't blame us for your short comings.
And I have it on good authority that its not 100% Safe... I know people who hunt Orca's in high sec.
===============
CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre
www.shadowcadre.com
===============
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Kazzac Elentria
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Posted - 2009.02.19 22:05:00 -
[69]
Again OP, get smart about your targets. Plenty of Orca's out there with no fittings to assist in the event of attack given you precious seconds of suicide time if they are in NPC corps.
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Kanikara
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.19 23:04:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
My my, what bunch of nice replies showing exactly what I figured would happen; people who either don't understand the situation, somehow think that because it's not their preferred playstyle it therefore has no merit or are frantically trying to defend their advantage (which is ok ofcourse, although the fact that there's no debate but rather crap posting says enough).
The reason we don't have a KB anymore is because we can't be bothered with the "oooh we destroyed x mil!!!!!oneeleventy". We kill a target and it shows up on the corp confirmed list, you know the one... in your corporation window, hence the "confirmed kills" name as... that's how it's named.
Most of you are incapable or unwilling to actually debate the real issue, the fact that being able to directly move goods into an Orca from another ship (in this case a miner) isn't exactly in "EVE's spirit" as it's a 100% safe operation while at the same time benefitting from the Orca itself. Oh well, I'll keep voicing my opinion on this. Who knows what good it will do.
Yeah, I mean they can't be suicided...
Then there are those juicy traders in Jita just waiting for you to shoot them..
there is no 100% safe, there are options you choose not to use.
get it right op
You are whinging because your style of operation got harder, even though the number of orcas to miners isn't 1 to 1 or even close to being every miner dumping into an orca...
You have targets out there, you just got to work harder to find them.
They adapt of course.. and you'll start seeing more GSCs used for storage or just transfer rendering flips impossible...
Or the ever fun hulk cargo runs.
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Ris Dnalor
Ex Cruoris Libertas
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Posted - 2009.02.22 21:10:00 -
[71]
I agree with OP
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Erica 'cowpig'Lafehr
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.02.23 00:40:00 -
[72]
I'm sure you, OP, have read on the forums how the Orca is being used my neg. sec. status pirates. They pod into high sec fly to an Orca in a SS board their ships that are inside and away from sentry guns and gank high sec miners haven't you? And I bet it brought a smile to your face. Yes? One could argue that the intended use of the Orca was not for this but it can be used in this way. So what miners can mine straight into it. Now you have to work a little at finding miners w/o an Orca or find a new way of earning isk.
Sorry but you're pain I do not have pitty for. I love tears...
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.23 01:04:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Erica 'cowpig'Lafehr
I'm sure you, OP, have read on the forums how the Orca is being used my neg. sec. status pirates. They pod into high sec fly to an Orca in a SS board their ships that are inside and away from sentry guns and gank high sec miners haven't you? And I bet it brought a smile to your face. Yes? One could argue that the intended use of the Orca was not for this but it can be used in this way. So what miners can mine straight into it. Now you have to work a little at finding miners w/o an Orca or find a new way of earning isk.
Sorry but you're pain I do not have pitty for. I love tears...
a) post with your main
b) you assume things as (just as most people) you polarize issues based on how your percieve a certain person, instead of keeping to facts and logic. In fact I do NOT think (and have posted on that as such) that outlaws should somehow be able to negate the downside of being an outlaw, the "normal use of high sec". If people decide that going outlaw is cool or they accept the downside of doing low sec pewpew (or suiciding) then they should not be able to circumvent the results of that.
As I see it Concord should simply follow you around if you're flying a ship, following you till you come out of warp and attack as only concord can do it. No silly faction police crap.
Self-proclaimed idiot
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Malthros Zenobia
Cadian Special Operations Command
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Posted - 2009.02.23 02:44:00 -
[74]
The bottom line is your complaint is irrelevant Tzar'rim. The point of a corporate hangar array on a ship is so people can directly access corp assets in space. The fact that people use it to directly dump ore while mining is 'smart', just liike can-flipping is 'smart'.
The problem you see is that when people work intelligently, they are '100% safe' because you don't have an overly easy method (can flipping) of getting them prepped to kill easily.
In your OP you say putting effort in should make people safe but not 100% safe, yet you refuse to acknowledge the fact that using secure containers already provided this. Orcas (and all other ships with a corp hangar array), simply assist in a more convenient fashion.
In the case of the Orca, it is doing exactly what it was created to do, be a mining assistance platform. Do you thing that corp hangar array wouldn't be there if CCP didn't intend for it to be used?
Originally by: kieron
The Carrier was never intended to be a solo OMGWTF mission-farming PWNmobile.
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Rene Fullchest
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Posted - 2009.02.23 03:32:00 -
[75]
Your boo-hoo-hoo tears fuel both my hulk and my Orca.
Thank you.
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.23 08:57:00 -
[76]
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 23/02/2009 09:04:50
Originally by: Malthros Zenobia
The bottom line is your complaint is irrelevant Tzar'rim. The point of a corporate hangar array on a ship is so people can directly access corp assets in space. The fact that people use it to directly dump ore while mining is 'smart', just liike can-flipping is 'smart'.
The problem you see is that when people work intelligently, they are '100% safe' because you don't have an overly easy method (can flipping) of getting them prepped to kill easily.
In your OP you say putting effort in should make people safe but not 100% safe, yet you refuse to acknowledge the fact that using secure containers already provided this. Orcas (and all other ships with a corp hangar array), simply assist in a more convenient fashion.
In the case of the Orca, it is doing exactly what it was created to do, be a mining assistance platform. Do you thing that corp hangar array wouldn't be there if CCP didn't intend for it to be used?
Finally a normal arguement, written in a normal way.
Secure containers are 100% safe, that is why CCP refused to increase them in size compared to normal cans. They are safe at the cost of size restrictions, having to be anchored and having anchoring restrictions (5km range). So CCP gave someone the option of being safe at the cost of it taking more effort. Which is exactly as it should be, I have no problems with that at all. If someone puts in the effort to secure his assets at the cost of efficiency then he gets to reap the rewards.
Now we go to the Orca. It has a mining bonus which helps tremendously, that's good. It gets the tractor bonuses which just makes sense, that's also good. It gets a huge cargo hold and the hangar allows for storage of a bunch ships in case the miners need to defend their assets. The ship fills it's intended role to optimise and increase efficiency for miners, and (normally) due to the tractor beam stuff it increases the security of their assets. But, adding to all the bonuses of efficiency, size etc it also provides a 100% secure system? That's TOO much.
That would be the same as saying that someone who doesn't put in the effort to make sure his T2 hauler/freighter gets ganked by using scouts, effort and some thinking should somehow get a free 'get out of jail' card by adding immunity to being locked, or scrammed or whatever. Or someone who bought himself a Marauder instead of a normal BS can't be locked, killed or jammed, just because on top of the other bonuses the extra cost should make him fully immune. It just doesn't make sense in this EVE world.
Stating that "people just make smart use of the options they have" is true but that didn't stop CCP from saying that Carriers shouldn't be used as haulers, and thus added restrictions to them. Same thing applies here imo.
Self-proclaimed idiot
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Stick Cult
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Posted - 2009.02.23 09:25:00 -
[77]
What about mining and flying back to station to drop it off?
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Tzar'rim
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Posted - 2009.02.23 09:28:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Stick Cult
What about mining and flying back to station to drop it off?
It increases security at the cost of effiency and effort, thus there's no problem with it.
Self-proclaimed idiot
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Caphis
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Posted - 2009.02.23 10:04:00 -
[79]
not suported...as the old saying for salge thing
its a feature..war dec the orca pilot and stop wining
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Kanikara
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2009.02.23 12:16:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
<snip for posting limits>
An orca is not 100% safe in high sec. It can be suicide attacked.
In response to the desire for larger containers CCP decided to give the community the Orca. You forget the original containers were released when there were no barges just laser equipped cruisers/battleships as the top mining ships.
Rather than release larger SC's they released the Orca which is a fleet ship increasing the multi-player aspect of mining (even if many do it with alts). It's not a ship most can get into real quick unless they were already trained up for fleet boosting with mining foreman while piloting a hulk. You have at least 120-180 days for most starting characters (current not expansion) to even be functional in the orca.
It's expensive, balanced out now to about half a billion isk or so for the hull. Close enough to a freighter in cost when outfitted. Most small operations will not be able to afford one, and will just cargo rig hulks... or anchor a GSC for transfer into a hauler on station (resulting in the same security as the orca...)
You just have to hunt more and farther, or resort to options you choose not to use.
Look on the bright side, your style of play was one of the reasons CCP released the Orca. You changed EVE Online, just not in the way you wanted it to evolve.
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Jitabug
Caldari
Viva POS Pinata
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Posted - 2009.02.23 12:28:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Have no problems with things becoming more difficult or challenging. But Immunity is something EVE shouldn't have, and atm with an Orca you're immune.
A bit like being a "pirate" in an NPC corp you mean?
If people are using a 500m isk ship as a giant secure container, that's their right. 500m isk is a an expensive cargo can.
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Kusum Fawn
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Posted - 2009.03.04 15:49:00 -
[82]
Oh how i love it, finally miners are becoming harder to kill. harder to gank and harder to outsmart, Pirate tears anyone, theres more then enough...
1) why are you messing with miners?
2) For what reason other then griefing do you mess with miners
3) what did that miner do to you?
4) Orcas are the answer to griefers like you
5) orcas are expensive for small corps
6) not everyone in a corp is online at the same time
7) not everyone can fly an orca or has an alt that can
8) A killboard full of miners? (sorry a kill message something)
9) really you just suck
10) why arent you shooting other pirates again?
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar
Shadow Cadre
Worlds End Consortium
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Posted - 2009.03.04 15:56:00 -
[83]
I have no problem when it comes to killing macro miners.
One of the reasons I never mine alone is that very reason...
I'm the one with the Bestower following me wherever it goes : O P
You want to be a real pirate? Go to 0.0 and be a man. : O )
I hear its lovely in Delve this time of year
===============
CEO of Clan Shadow Cadre
www.shadowcadre.com
===============
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Fahtim Meidires
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.04 19:17:00 -
[84]
Even if one couldn't put ore directly into an orca's hold, the orca could simply anchor a secure can and sit right next to it. In fact, any stationary hauler can do the same thing, and have been able to since secure cans have been around. Miners -> secure can -> hauler. 100% safe.
This isn't anything new I'm afraid.
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Katie Door
the united
Negative Ten.
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Posted - 2009.03.05 11:35:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
Edited by: Tzar''rim on 23/02/2009
snip/snip
Now we go to the Orca. It has a mining bonus which helps tremendously, that's good. It gets the tractor bonuses which just makes sense, that's also good. It gets a huge cargo hold and the hangar allows for storage of a bunch ships in case the miners need to defend their assets. The ship fills it's intended role to optimise and increase efficiency for miners, and (normally) due to the tractor beam stuff it increases the security of their assets. But, adding to all the bonuses of efficiency, size etc it also provides a 100% secure system? That's TOO much.
snip/snip
The corporate hanger does not store ship, the ship maintenance bay stores assembled ships, the corp hanger on an Orca stores "stuff", ore mined by the miners is dropped in the corp hanger, which is moved by the Orca pilot from the corp hanger into the cargo hold of said Orca (which means the orca pilot, while not doing much i suppose, can't really be AFK for extended periods of time.
if u wanna talk about 100% safe, then moan about 100% safe haulers for empire, the blockade runners. even in 0.0 (i imagine) they are very hard to catch, if the blockade runner has 2 braincells to rub together.
IOW: adept or die
P.s.: I suck @ quoting
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Gone'Postal
Void Engineers
Black Sun Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.05 13:36:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Tzar'rim
This creates a completely safe mining environment (apart from suicides)
Originally by: Tzar'rim
but 100% safety is NOT what EVE is about
I've bolded the part that breaks your own argument.
How can something be 100% safe, but have a exception, or did you just decide to ignore it?
Originally by: masternerdguy
Officer mods arent spread out because the bpos are innacesible to 99% of eve.
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Maximum KILLDEATHRATIO
Minmatar
24th Imperial Crusade
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Posted - 2009.03.05 21:57:00 -
[87]
They are being organized by doing so. So why don't you stop whining and be organized as well, bump them away from the orca.
___________________
Yes I'm bitter. (the taste you can see!)
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