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Dantes Revenge Caldari	Posted - 2009.02.19 03:48:00 - [1] At the risk of getting into another political discussion which is not the real purpose of this thread. Without going into the politics behind it all, I want to know how many are in favour and how many against ID cards and the reasons behind it. From my previous posts, you have probably already figured that I am dead against it. Reasons: I have a passport with a biometric chip on it. Why should I be forced to pay more money to the government to have an ID card that duplicates what I already have? Even without a passport, I am totally against the big brother approach that will ultimately be used to track you. Invasion of privacy comes to mind. I am not a criminal and I object to the possibility of being watched like a criminal. If we let this pass, it will be one step towards geo-tracking implants for everyone. I will refuse to apply for one and refuse to carry one even if it means imprisonment. -- There's a simple difference between kinky and perverted. Kinky is using a feather to get her in the mood. Perverted is using the whole chicken. All this has happened before and will happen again
Tinky Winkey Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2009.02.19 04:03:00 - [2] Why do people always get their knickers in a twist when ID cards are mentioned.Why would the government want to track you ? Why is it an invasion of privacy ? If they wanted information on you they have no need to resort to an ID card you think ? The government could watch you and track you now without you knowing it, this anti ID card phopia people have is just the last remanents of a defunct left wing ideology. Please get over it.
Jhagiti Tyran Mortis Angelus	Posted - 2009.02.19 04:12:00 - [3] If they come with a lot of the claimed functionality I am totally for them, if they combine driving licence with ID and enable health services easy access to records and all that stuff its a good idea. Having an irrefutable form of single ID is convenient to its such a pain in the arse when you apply for something like a bank account or phone contract and you need to take a passport/birth certificate recent bill and you need like 5 different proofs of ID having a single card with biometrics would be a lot easier as well as helping against ID theft. Having to pay would suck a bit though but I really don't understand all the "omg they are going to track us!!one11!" stuff because if security agencies really want to track you they can do it just fine as you leave such a huge paper trail in the modern world anyway.
Jorev Dannel Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.02.19 04:54:00 - [4] I'm against it. Anything that creates the illusion of security is bad, and as everyone will need to be able to get a hold of one of these cards if they're to be of any value at all, people will be able to get legitimate cards for illegitimate identities just as easily as they get weaker forms of ID now. People will just be less careful because the person they're dealing with "had an ID card".
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Terradyne Networks Terradyne Networks Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.19 05:16:00 - [5] Originally by: Tinky Winkey Why do people always get their knickers in a twist when ID cards are mentioned.Why would the government want to track you ? Why is it an invasion of privacy ? If they wanted information on you they have no need to resort to an ID card you think ? The government could watch you and track you now without you knowing it, this anti ID card phopia people have is just the last remanents of a defunct left wing ideology. Please get over it. A marine was sought after for murder a little while back. He made it from the East coast to Mexico and remained there for 3 weeks undetected before a family member reported him to the authorities. So the tracking as it stands now is not as great as one would think. With an ID card and chip you could simply pass through a sensor somewhere and it brings you up on map, especially if your name is keyworded into a search. Of course you could always lose the ID if your on the run but if they make it mandatory to have one to even buy like a candy bar then your kind of fubar'd On the plus side though if someone stole your identity they'd know exactly where the perp is.
Evthron Macyntire	Posted - 2009.02.19 05:18:00 - [6] The government can already track you, credit and debit, if you drive a car or ever go in public. This ID card just personifies the whole situation. This card would be a good idea if medical records, passport info, Drivers License, etc.. Can be stored on it. However this brings identity theft to a whole new level. Sounds like a waste of money on the governments part, but I will get one if required by law.
Jhagiti Tyran Mortis Angelus	Posted - 2009.02.19 05:52:00 - [7] Originally by: Micheal Dietrich A marine was sought after for murder a little while back. He made it from the East coast to Mexico and remained there for 3 weeks undetected before a family member reported him to the authorities. So the tracking as it stands now is not as great as one would think. With an ID card and chip you could simply pass through a sensor somewhere and it brings you up on map, especially if your name is keyworded into a search. Of course you could always lose the ID if your on the run but if they make it mandatory to have one to even buy like a candy bar then your kind of fubar'd On the plus side though if someone stole your identity they'd know exactly where the perp is. Surely this argument is a case for identity cards?
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2009.02.19 06:13:00 - [8] I would love to have ID cards, with a little twist... Its a small implant in your wrist, implanted around 13. It should also be tied into the nervous system so that it always tells you the time of day, but thats just wishful thinking... Police/hospitals would have scanners to access all medical/criminal records, as well as other stuff... Could also be used as the way to get into your house/car, computer, etc... Originally by: Akita T Seriously ? ...wow... I'm such a forum ho' !
Jorev Dannel Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.02.19 06:22:00 - [9] Edited by: Jorev Dannel on 19/02/2009 06:22:29 Quote: Of course you could always lose the ID if your on the run but if they make it mandatory to have one to even buy like a candy bar then your kind of fubar'd If everyone needs one then everyone must be able to get one. If identical twins, victims of identity theft, people with lost or missing documents, etc. can get the one they need, then any skilled con-man can get the five they shouldn't have, no problem.
Dirk Magnum Royal Hiigaran Navy	Posted - 2009.02.19 06:28:00 - [10] I would never willingly submit to any ID card program that can track my location without my consent. Such a card would be at odds with the 4th Amendment anyway, so I'm not particularly worried about it. Apart from that I really don't care about ID cards. My driver's license is already required for pretty much anything I ever do ever anyway.
rValdez5987 Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2009.02.19 06:40:00 - [11] I'm for National ID, preferably as a chip that is inserted into your arm surgically in such a way that it cannot be removed except by a special confidential method. This National ID should contain your financial information, social security number, medical information, and be able to be tracked by GPS in the case of an emergency. I do believe in the Big Brother approach. The majority of mankind is not responsible enough to be left on their own. Consider this removal of privacy to be your punishment for allowing useless people to do useless things. Don't ask for an explanation either. Open your eyes, see the world around you, and its pretty clear why mankind needs an authoritative power to control it. The main problem lies in finding people who are qualified to have such a level of control, and for that I can tell you that there is quite possibly no man on this planet that is truly qualified. Man is easily corrupted, easily swayed in their judgement by things which have no true value. TL;DR: I support a national ID system, as mankind needs such a thing, but in the same sense I am against it, because it would be used irresponsibly by useless people. _________________________________________ Soon to be in a new home
Rob Z0mbie	Posted - 2009.02.19 06:44:00 - [12] cellphones, cars, computers, phones, bank accounts, etc. what am i missing here? \(o.0)/
Jorev Dannel Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.02.19 07:05:00 - [13] Originally by: rValdez5987 I'm for National ID, preferably as a chip that is inserted into your arm surgically in such a way that it cannot be removed except by a special confidential method. I'm surprised so many people are in favour of such implants. Some very obvious problems with this: 1. You're storing vital information in a way that can be destroyed or lost just when you need it the most. People start relying on the chip for medical history, then there's a big accident with severed and crushed limbs and suddenly people can't cope without the access they're used to. 2. Three letters: MRI. Throw all the machines away, everyone's got metal in their bodies so you can't place them in giant magnets anymore. 3. Dog Wags the Tail: It's not the medium that's important, it's the information that's stored on the medium. Unless you want to subject a patient to surgery every time his medical information needs an update, it'd be possible to read and write to and from the implant externally, which means the information would be hackable by anyone sooner or later. 4. Toxicity and Failure: Allergies, blood clots, problem of operating on people with conditions like hemophillia, etc. It's a massive time and resource cost and would inevitably lead to exceptions to the rule existing, which con-men could exploit. 5. Uncheckable Chips: If it requires surgery to put it in, you've no way to know if it's even there later on. If you can't read the chip is it because it's failed from wear and tear, or has it been removed? Is your equipment malfunctioning? Has the data on the chip become corrupted? Performing surgery to find out leads to lawsuits and misery when someone ends up dying because some guy's scanner was badly maintained. 6. Faking It: How does the scanner know it's scanning the inside of your arm? Why not put a fake chip in a lead armband and instantly become someone else for all methods involving remote sensors? 7. Psyche! The information on the chip can be read, so it can be copied. Copy it to a blank chip six or seven hundred times. Boom! You're everywhere. Or someone else is everywhere. 8. Confidential method? It's just flesh and bone. Nothing you can do will make an implant in the human body impossible to remove. The only way to make it hard is to make it dangerous and that's just not feasable on a large number of recipients because it'll generate a large number of errors when you're putting the darn things in. 9. I'll take that... if your bank can scan your bank information without operating on your arm, that guy trying to steal your bank information can scan it too without ever even touching you. It's just a big black hole of impossibilities and failures.
Myrhial Arkenath Ghost Festival	Posted - 2009.02.19 08:07:00 - [14] Nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide. What bothers me more is the opportunities for identity theft this all creates. CEO \| Diary of a pod pilot
TimMc Gallente Extradition	Posted - 2009.02.19 08:25:00 - [15] Originally by: Dirk Magnum I would never willingly submit to any ID card program that can track my location without my consent. Such a card would be at odds with the 4th Amendment anyway, so I'm not particularly worried about it. Apart from that I really don't care about ID cards. My driver's license is already required for pretty much anything I ever do ever anyway. I would leave the UK if they started ID cards. Probably go back to USA or something.
Aricaan Gallente Playboy Enterprises Dark Taboo	Posted - 2009.02.19 08:44:00 - [16] Didnt anyone see Minority Report? They tracked everything with your eyeballs. What did the criminals do? Put in new Eyeballs. ID cards wont do jack. No matter what they try to do, someone will work around it. ISK rules everything around me.
ReaperOfSly Gallente Zetsubou Corp	Posted - 2009.02.19 08:49:00 - [17] Very much against. Even ignoring the cost, the violation of privacy, etc, I don't trust this government to keep my information secure. It seems like every bloody week/month we hear on the news about documents and datasticks and laptops being left in trains and taxis. One last year held contact info for anyone who had claimed child benefit in the previous 3 years or something. ____________________
Eran Laude Gallente The Aduro Protocol	Posted - 2009.02.19 09:21:00 - [18] As someone who is for EU expansion and integration, I would like to see all national ID cards replaced with an EU-wide one, and for it to be optional, with the exception of those who have a criminal record in any EU state and government and EU employees. However, I am completely against a pointless national ID card scheme - as was said in the "UK Labour Government fail" thread down/up the page, we've invested in cards here, but no technology to actually read them. A national ID card scheme is of no tangible benefit to the people, lightens people's wallets to the tune of a lot of cash and, given this government's appalling record of adhering to the Data Protection Act [which they introduced] so far, I wouldn't trust them with a single database that stored all my data until they seriously sharpen up security, if at all. Having an EU-funded scheme across all of Europe means that an EU ID card would actually have the practical use of being a legitimate form of ID across 27 nations, not just one, possibly even replacing passports for inter-EU travel, and having the backing of 27 governments, so could receive signficant investment in data security compared to a single national effort. tl;dr - national UK cards, bad idea. ID cards in general = stupid idea but I make an exception for an EU scheme. which has benefits as opposed to pure negatives.
mingeta dong BEER Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.19 09:22:00 - [19] Does anyone seriously think that terrorists or criminals are going to walk around with all the correct documentation? Me neither, which makes the politicians look **ing ridiculous when they use terrorism and national security as an excuse to bring these I.D. cards in. When a terrorist goes to blow something up, I don't think having their paperwork in order is high on his priorities, not that he cares anyway as they have been blowing themselves up in the process recently. And remember, you're innocent of a crime until you are proven to be guilty. I'm not a criminal, how **ing dare they brand me as one. The UK is a flipping island for god sake, we don't have closed borders, and in fact you don't even need a passport to travel within the EU, so regardless of how this is implemented there will be a significant number of people on our little island that don't have them for one reason or another. How can they replace passports anyway, are other countries going to accept them when we travel?? So what really are the Government trying to achieve with this? I don't know, whatÆs worse is that I think they don't know either. You've just got some daft bint and her advisers needing to stay relevant and show that they can bring in a project on budget or something ridiculous like that. I'm with the OP on this, don't want, won't have, if IÆm prosecuted for not having one IÆll see it as an infringement of my civil liberties and IÆll be getting all Guy Fawkes on their arses.
Kaiser Sorano	Posted - 2009.02.19 09:40:00 - [20] Edited by: Kaiser Sorano on 19/02/2009 09:40:54 Originally by: Myrhial Arkenath Nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide. What bothers me more is the opportunities for identity theft this all creates. I find this attitude incredibly naive. I'm very skeptical of anyone who says they have nothing to hide. Everybody has secrets or things which they find normal but other people may find bizarre. Would you really want to be discriminated against because of some little tidbit of information? You're right about the opportunites for identity theft though. Having a centralised identity database is a one-stop shop for fraudsters. Hey guys, no need to go rooting through bins anymore; just employ a teenager to get into the national ID database and voila! Going by the government's previous track record on IT projects we'd all be able to get into it without too much bother. Furthermore, who will have access to this information? Police: definitely. Hospitals: definitely Inland revenue: oh really? Marketing companies: what? The avenues for abuse of such a system are plentiful. Next thing you know they'll be pricing people out of buying pizzas because of their medical records.
Reven Cordelle Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.02.19 10:14:00 - [21] Meh. If they want to track me and list everything I do - then they sure as hell better let me work from home and do everything from my PC. Why? Because I'm lazy and that would be awesome. Primarily I just want my own HUD, you know - So i can see how my vital organs are doing, and I can monitor my health right down to the most intricate of processes. Oh, and so I can make Mental Notes that I don't forget 5 minutes later. But they say that in London you can be caught on CCTV hundreds of times a day if you're out in the city. They're already watching - they just want an easier way to do it. Unfortunately ID Cards are the ghetto way of going about it. You can lose them, they can be duplicated..**** like that. We need some device wired into our BRAIN or something. As long as I can get the internet wired straight into my face, I - and most likely the majority of the consumer population, will be happy.
TraininVain	Posted - 2009.02.19 10:19:00 - [22] Against. I don't trust the po-po's or the government with this technology. Once it's there they'll just be thinking of excuses to misuse it. None of the benefits of the scheme are in any way convincing. "It's to catch terrorists" is the new "Think of the children". Do you know how many actual terrorists they've caught with the new antiterrorism powers? The police in this country already engage in routine datamining of certain datasets to track the movement of people. We're not talking about data just generated from surveilling criminals. People generally. Given the ability to do the same with the ID card database there is no doubt in my mind that they would. I'm also pretty sure that if/when these are made compulsory it'll encourage a lot of barking "Papers please!" at all and sundry. I'm starting to see why the US constitution arms the people.
Myrhial Arkenath Ghost Festival	Posted - 2009.02.19 10:25:00 - [23] Originally by: Kaiser Sorano Edited by: Kaiser Sorano on 19/02/2009 09:40:54 Originally by: Myrhial Arkenath Nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide. What bothers me more is the opportunities for identity theft this all creates. I find this attitude incredibly naive. I'm very skeptical of anyone who says they have nothing to hide. Everybody has secrets or things which they find normal but other people may find bizarre. Would you really want to be discriminated against because of some little tidbit of information? Anything can be used against someone if you try hard enough. I'm not saying all your info should be just thrown out there, in fact I am in favor of pretty strict but balanced regulations on who can see what. Not too strict so that they make the whole keeping of information useless, but not too sloppy either so it provides a risk for identity theft. CEO \| Diary of a pod pilot
mingeta dong BEER Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.19 10:40:00 - [24] Originally by: TraininVain RValdez (and everyone else), the government have no special qualifications to do this stuff. They're just the guys that got voted in. I know when you say "The government" it brings to mind all sorts of warm fuzzy ideas about authority and institutions but try for the sake of argument asking whether you'd want your next door neighbour to have this power. You can add to that, when these people do get into a cabinet position they then become the mouthpiece for whatever department they represent. Who has the real power, the guy who won a popularity contest against a toff, a guy dressed as a clown/dog/bear and a couple of other non runners, or the civil servants who may have put in the foundation work for this scheme before the last general election and will push their ideas through regardless of which regime is currently in power?
Jhagiti Tyran Mortis Angelus	Posted - 2009.02.19 10:53:00 - [25] Originally by: Kaiser Sorano I find this attitude incredibly naive. I'm very skeptical of anyone who says they have nothing to hide. Everybody has secrets or things which they find normal but other people may find bizarre. Would you really want to be discriminated against because of some little tidbit of information? Just about every aspect of our lives is tracked, recorded and stored. Your Bank- Knows what you buy and where you buy it, they know where you work and they know your entire credit history. Your ISP- Knows what games you play, what **** you look at and what websites you go to. Your cell phone provider- knows where you are and who you call and when you call them and they can read the smutty text messages you send The police and government can access this data anytime they choose and this is just the tip of the iceberg when you factor in stuff like automatic toll roads or congestion charges because they can see where your car is and track it with CCTV. Privacy in the modern world is a total illusion because it really is 1984.
Jorev Dannel Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.02.19 10:56:00 - [26] Quote: Just about every aspect of our lives is tracked, recorded and stored. This is true, but at the same time...hardly anyone is looking at hardly any of that information, and the ones that do really don't care who you are or what you're doing, they only care about large-scale trends and patterns.
mingeta dong BEER Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.19 11:22:00 - [27] Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran Originally by: Kaiser Sorano I find this attitude incredibly naive. I'm very skeptical of anyone who says they have nothing to hide. Everybody has secrets or things which they find normal but other people may find bizarre. Would you really want to be discriminated against because of some little tidbit of information? Just about every aspect of our lives is tracked, recorded and stored. Your Bank- Knows what you buy and where you buy it, they know where you work and they know your entire credit history. Your ISP- Knows what games you play, what **** you look at and what websites you go to. Your cell phone provider- knows where you are and who you call and when you call them and they can read the smutty text messages you send The police and government can access this data anytime they choose and this is just the tip of the iceberg when you factor in stuff like automatic toll roads or congestion charges because they can see where your car is and track it with CCTV. Privacy in the modern world is a total illusion because it really is 1984. Still atm you do have some choice. You can still pay for goods and services in cash. There are plenty of ways to access the internet that can't be traced back to you. You can turn your phone off, use a landline etc. What will happen if I don't agree with my Government in the future, am I able to hold a free and unhindered public protest without police involvement? Will my bank accounts be frozen (cash, supposedly is on the way out, I will have no means to buy anything), will my movements be completely traceable as I have to use my I.D. to access public transport, toll roads even public buildings? Will I have to use the same I.D. to access the internet from all terminals? Am I breaking the law if I try to protect myself and sympathisers from obstructional policing by taking photographs of their heavy handed approach? IÆm not saying thatÆs anyoneÆs intent, but is the current government laying the foundations to enable a future police state run by a regime with malicious intentions?
F'elch	Posted - 2009.02.19 11:25:00 - [28] Here is an article about the last time ID cards were in use in the UK: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3129302.stm The basic gist of it is, that they served very little purpose and made the common man feel like a criminal. Winston Churchill ended their use in 1952 because "the system was expensive and difficult to administer, and offered few benefits". I guess that's why we will each have to fork out for our own ID card. More disturbing than the proposed ID card scheme itself, is the ongoing efforts of our government to collect and centralise data about its people. Recent goverment proposals have included introducing new laws where data collected by one government agency can be accessed and used by another without permission being requested or needed. A direct violation of privacy and data protection laws. The goverment also wants to record all phone calls, text messages and the websites you visit. Your sexul preferences or religious beliefs could be recorded. And they are certainly no-one's business but your own and those you choose to share them with. A new law has also come into effect where every child born is entered into a national database. All of these things are an invasion of privacy and we should also be worried about the goverment's track record of keeping such data secure. It doesn't take a great stretch of the imagination to see your child's information left on a pen drive on the tube, including address, what school they go to, medical information etc. All of these things which erode our privacy are being dressed up as increased security using the threat of terrorism as an excuse. Read this for the ex-head of MI5's take on things: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/terrorist-threat-exploited-to-curb-civil-liberties-1623795.html We should all be very concerned about this. It IS 1984. Just take a look at all the CCTV cameras. Anyone who is not worried about these developments, or says "if you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear" is being suckered in.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.19 11:41:00 - [29] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 19/02/2009 11:49:10 no thx also it's not the general consensus that ppl wants a chip in them.. not on this forum either. many of the regular trolls on this forum have been discovered to be closet facists and puppets how ever much they will lie and deny that fact.. names: akita t, cedric diggory, raven cordelle, merin/sera ryskin, micheal dietrich, rvaldez. their MO seems to start off pretending they are just like you and then gradually trying to nudge you towards their facist views. Be aware of this. also god knows how many alts they have for the same purpose when it gets too obvious what they are doing on their mains and when they need someone to back up the insanity of what they are saying.
Vak'ran	Posted - 2009.02.19 12:02:00 - [30] Apart from all the tinhattery, my beef with these things is the requirement to keep them with you at all times (at least that is the case where I live). I refuse this. If they were free I wouldn't care, but I am not about to carry around a ~Ç80 passport or ~Ç50 ID card risking to loose it twice a year, its a cost I can do without on my student budget. If they want to know who I am for whatever reason they can ask me. If I do something wrong they can go ahead and arrest me, but if its a random ID check (yes they do this) they may arrest me as well, because I'm not gonna cater to that kind of governmental distrust. ----- Vak'Ran is your local official non-dedicated part-time advocate of reading comprehension and proliferation of intelligence on the EVE Online Forums.
mingeta dong BEER Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.19 12:08:00 - [31] Originally by: 7shining7one7 Usual bitter crap How about trying to be constructive and not reducing the thread to a flame fest?
Ultin Harvor Gallente Tektrust Industries	Posted - 2009.02.19 12:10:00 - [32] I am totally against it, for all the cons posted above. It's all about control, and I don't like that one bit. As a University student the UK Government is likely to start here with the handing out of ID cards, and the most likely tactic they will use is to give them out for free and possibly add some sort of discount when you show one in a shop. I am still not going to get one. It goes against everything I stand for, personal freedom and liberties have been crushed left, right and center ever since some PR guy came up with the phrase 'War on Terror'. I really do not like the fact that we cannot peacefully protest outside Westminster or Downing Street. Instead they give us a police 'escort' and force the protesters around routes which escape all the higher-ups in the Government. They should really let us protest, they don't have to listen to us but they should at least know how we (the public and the people who put these crack-pots in 'power') feel. I am also against a big database collating all of our information, especially in a modern world where money is power and information equals money and, therefore, power.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.19 12:11:00 - [33] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 19/02/2009 12:12:17 Originally by: mingeta dong Originally by: 7shining7one7 Usual bitter crap How about trying to be constructive and not reducing the thread to a flame fest? how about staying on topic instead of trying to instigate, no thx to the id/chip was the first words in my post.
Jago Kain Amarr Pan Galactic Traders	Posted - 2009.02.19 12:18:00 - [34] The governement can stuff it's ID card scheme up it's collective bottom. In any case, I'm pretty sure that any evidence used to prosecute someone on the basis of it would breach parts of the ECHR, most likely article 6 (sort of similar to the 5th amendment in the US)... although I am aware that this hasn't stopped the swines thus far; section 172 NIP anyone? Quite how this is supposed to protect us from terrorism is unclear... it's not like possesion of an ID card will allow you to carry rucksacks full of chemicals onto the London Underground anyway and the last I heard, the DVLA weren't issuing permits for car bombs... although I could be wrong. There is also the potential for much more harm from abuse of the system by fraudsters and incompetence on the part of the administrators. I won't even raise the subject of fishing expeditions by police under pressure to get results and with no actual evidence in the "classic" sense of the term. I think civil disobedience is the order of the day and, at the risk of actually agreeing with Dantes Emorage, I have no intention of nerfing my civil liberties by applying for or carrying one of these should the govt. ever manage to force them through. ___________________________________________________ The game will never be over, because we're keeping the meme alive.
mingeta dong BEER Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.19 12:19:00 - [35] Originally by: 7shining7one7 no thx to the id/chip was the first words in my post. From which point you started to attack regular forum posters, how is that on topic? meh, I'm not going to get into this with you, replying to me is a waste of your time.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.19 12:20:00 - [36] Edited by: 7shining7one7 on 19/02/2009 12:21:34 Originally by: mingeta dong Originally by: 7shining7one7 no thx to the id/chip was the first words in my post. From which point you started to attack regular forum posters, how is that on topic? meh, I'm not going to get into this with you, replying to me is a waste of your time. Originally by: reven cordelle We need some device wired into our BRAIN or something. As long as I can get the internet wired straight into my face, I - and most likely the majority of the consumer population, will be happy. LOOK AT THIS SJIT AND TELL ME I'M LYING...
Reven Cordelle Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.02.19 12:36:00 - [37] Edited by: Reven Cordelle on 19/02/2009 12:38:12 Originally by: 7shining7one7 Originally by: reven cordelle We need some device wired into our BRAIN or something. As long as I can get the internet wired straight into my face, I - and most likely the majority of the consumer population, will be happy. LOOK AT THIS SJIT AND TELL ME I'M LYING... You're lying. :3 By the way - the people you so boldly mentioned... "Akita T, Cedric Diggory, Reven Cordelle, Merin/Sera ryskin, Michael Dietrich, RValdez" Yeah, we're all leet. 'Nuff said.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.19 12:42:00 - [38] Originally by: Jorev Dannel Originally by: rValdez5987 I'm for National ID, preferably as a chip that is inserted into your arm surgically in such a way that it cannot be removed except by a special confidential method. I'm surprised so many people are in favour of such implants. Some very obvious problems with this: 1. You're storing vital information in a way that can be destroyed or lost just when you need it the most. People start relying on the chip for medical history, then there's a big accident with severed and crushed limbs and suddenly people can't cope without the access they're used to. 2. Three letters: MRI. Throw all the machines away, everyone's got metal in their bodies so you can't place them in giant magnets anymore. 3. Dog Wags the Tail: It's not the medium that's important, it's the information that's stored on the medium. Unless you want to subject a patient to surgery every time his medical information needs an update, it'd be possible to read and write to and from the implant externally, which means the information would be hackable by anyone sooner or later. 4. Toxicity and Failure: Allergies, blood clots, problem of operating on people with conditions like hemophillia, etc. It's a massive time and resource cost and would inevitably lead to exceptions to the rule existing, which con-men could exploit. 5. Uncheckable Chips: If it requires surgery to put it in, you've no way to know if it's even there later on. If you can't read the chip is it because it's failed from wear and tear, or has it been removed? Is your equipment malfunctioning? Has the data on the chip become corrupted? Performing surgery to find out leads to lawsuits and misery when someone ends up dying because some guy's scanner was badly maintained. 6. Faking It: How does the scanner know it's scanning the inside of your arm? Why not put a fake chip in a lead armband and instantly become someone else for all methods involving remote sensors? 7. Psyche! The information on the chip can be read, so it can be copied. Copy it to a blank chip six or seven hundred times. Boom! You're everywhere. Or someone else is everywhere. 8. Confidential method? It's just flesh and bone. Nothing you can do will make an implant in the human body impossible to remove. The only way to make it hard is to make it dangerous and that's just not feasable on a large number of recipients because it'll generate a large number of errors when you're putting the darn things in. 9. I'll take that... if your bank can scan your bank information without operating on your arm, that guy trying to steal your bank information can scan it too without ever even touching you. It's just a big black hole of impossibilities and failures. QFT
ceaon Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.19 12:47:00 - [39] by law i have to keep my ID card/password whit me and i will never keep whit me( i have all the time my health care card in case of a health problem).If this crap begin to be a problem i will move in other country where a individual can have more freedom Somos universales, Pero andamos como el resto de los mortales, Ocultando nuestros miedos, Parece que no pero las guapas tambien se tiran pedos, Tambien los listos sumamos con los dedos.
Reven Cordelle Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.02.19 12:49:00 - [40] One word: Paranoia. People seem to think theres some kind of "grass is greener" ** going on if you just deny all government and any plans it has at incorporating fleeting levels of security. So what if they're watching you? Oh.. You mean you're worried that they'll be watching whilst you browse Rule 34 websites? And you really don't think they have anything better to do? Haha. As long as I can buy **, drive my car and check out the ladies... I honestly couldn't care less about "big brother watching". I'd just prefer to get on with living, rather than spend my time living - whining about living.
Polkageist Minmatar Accelerating Nanomechanical Industries	Posted - 2009.02.19 12:53:00 - [41] imagine if a new **** came to power, how easy the sick totalitarian order could round up people who opposed the regime. Saying no to ID-chips and biometrical datastorage is simply a precaution. But yeah as some people says, (if you got nothing to hide...) Well we got something to hide cause we're not gonna eat the propaganda. "but teh ebil tewworists..." Yeah They are stuck on the top of the pyramid, in the governments and the inteligence services. When you realise 9/11, 7/7 and who knows what was a false flag op you will see... "but teh media, they will protects us..." One word; Propaganda. So convincing it'l eat you **ing brain
Reven Cordelle Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.02.19 12:58:00 - [42] Originally by: Polkageist imagine if a new **** came to power, how easy the sick totalitarian order could round up people who opposed the regime. Saying no to ID-chips and biometrical datastorage is simply a precaution. But yeah as some people says, (if you got nothing to hide...) Well we got something to hide cause we're not gonna eat the propaganda. "but teh ebil tewworists..." Yeah They are stuck on the top of the pyramid, in the governments and the inteligence services. When you realise 9/11, 7/7 and who knows what was a false flag op you will see... "but teh media, they will protects us..." One word; Propaganda. So convincing it'l eat you **ing brain Hehe, its almost funny. Tragic, but funny.
Polkageist Minmatar Accelerating Nanomechanical Industries	Posted - 2009.02.19 13:01:00 - [43] yeah the comedy begins cause the funny mother****ers dont see it coming round again
ceaon Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.19 13:07:00 - [44] for ppl that say i have nothing to hide, the question is if you are a honest and you dint make anything illegal why government need to track you ? also about the terrorism thing more ppl die because of cancer that terrorism but governments give more money to anti-terror things that cancer cure, where is the logic ? Somos universales, Pero andamos como el resto de los mortales, Ocultando nuestros miedos, Parece que no pero las guapas tambien se tiran pedos, Tambien los listos sumamos con los dedos.
Reven Cordelle Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2009.02.19 13:07:00 - [45] Originally by: Polkageist yeah the comedy begins cause the funny mother**ers dont see it coming round again Yeah thats probably what it is. But hey, Don't be sad. You can always start by; - Burning your Car. - Closing all of your bank accounts. - Getting rid of your job. - Stop using the internet where you can be IP Traced. - Destroying your computer which may hold sensitive data about you. - Disposing of your Cellphone - It can be used to track you wherever you are. -Turning Invisible, CCTV will film you more often than you realise. - Living in a tent in the forest so you can't be found. - Talking to Nobody. - Trusting Nobody. If ** really is as bad as you think it is, you're not doing yourself any favours by continuing to post on a forum where you can be tracked by anyone, at any time.. if they actually had any reason to. Simply existing these days creates one hell of a trail that leads directly to you, and only you... so don't think a chip in your head changes anything - it just makes it easier to track you. Not like it isn't easy already.
ceaon Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.19 13:11:00 - [46] Originally by: Reven Cordelle Originally by: Polkageist yeah the comedy begins cause the funny mother**ers dont see it coming round again Yeah thats probably what it is. But hey, Don't be sad. You can always start by; - Burning your Car. - Closing all of your bank accounts. - Getting rid of your job. - Stop using the internet where you can be IP Traced. - Destroying your computer which may hold sensitive data about you. - Disposing of your Cellphone - It can be used to track you wherever you are. -Turning Invisible, CCTV will film you more often than you realise. - Living in a tent in the forest so you can't be found. - Talking to Nobody. - Trusting Nobody. If ** really is as bad as you think it is, you're not doing yourself any favours by continuing to post on a forum where you can be tracked by anyone, at any time.. if they actually had any reason to. Simply existing these days creates one hell of a trail that leads directly to you, and only you... so don't think a chip in your head changes anything - it just makes it easier to track you. Not like it isn't easy already. nice troll Somos universales, Pero andamos como el resto de los mortales, Ocultando nuestros miedos, Parece que no pero las guapas tambien se tiran pedos, Tambien los listos sumamos con los dedos.
Polkageist Minmatar Accelerating Nanomechanical Industries	Posted - 2009.02.19 13:11:00 - [47] good point. Now its class time... happy trolling
Miyuki Venetas Caldari Miyuki Labs	Posted - 2009.02.19 13:54:00 - [48] Dead against. A very brief study of the events taking place in Europe during 1939 and 1945 should be all anyone needs to comprehend why making it even easier for governments to assemble information on individuals is the worst idea since the Ronco(tm) Home Surgery Kit. I'm glad people can live with the false belief that such things haven't happened since and can't happen again. I'll stick to understanding several millennium of human history and being 'paranoid', thanks.
Carniflex Caldari StarHunt Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.02.19 13:58:00 - [49] Too late for me, they are already in use here in Estonia. I don't have anything against them, as they do make life considerably more comfortable if there is proper support for them in goverment / industry side. Can log into interent bank with them, sign legal documents with my digital signature that is equal to in the eyes of law to my handwritten signature and can vote without having to drag myself out to voting station actually. Plus I can chek all information gtoverment has on me when loging into special secured enviroment using it. Certificate will last 3 years and pin code needed for it is memorized so loss of identity is unlikely.
Jago Kain Amarr Pan Galactic Traders	Posted - 2009.02.19 14:00:00 - [50] Originally by: Miyuki Venetas .....the worst idea since the Ronco(tm) Home Surgery Kit. If it's good enough for Mickey Rourke, it's good enough for me. ___________________________________________________ The game will never be over, because we're keeping the meme alive.
Sgt Blade Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.02.19 14:01:00 - [51] I have a Hong Kong ID card which makes crossing the border to Mainland China and going to the hospital easy, nothing to sign or forms to fill in. Apart from needing your thumb print on the machine when crossing the border its effortless Hypnotic Pelvic Thrusting Level 5
Slade Trillgon Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.02.19 14:07:00 - [52] I am in the middle. I am against it for the same reasons you are, but I also see the potential benefits. So what I propose is that make it voluntary for non-criminal citizens, say for people that are willing and/or their children, also make them mandatory for all who commit and are convicted of any felony. Slade Originally by: Niccolado Starwalker Please go sit in the corner, and dont forget to don the shame-on-you-hat! ≡v≡
Karma Eve University	Posted - 2009.02.19 14:26:00 - [53] Edited by: Karma on 19/02/2009 14:32:58 living in sweden, I've had an ID card since I was in 4th grade... (more of a way for my parents to know that if I got lost, whoever found me would know who I was, I guess) ... it's the same size as a creditcard, so not really a bother to carry around in the wallet :P it should be mentioned that I am not forced to carry it with me at all times, and having one or not is your choice ... just: it acts as a proof of age when buying alcohol and cigarettes, and certain types of gambling junk. no ID - no alchohol. and it acts as a proof of identity when dealing with banks or the authorities etc. once you get a driver's license, it can replace your ID card, though. same with passport... if you don't have either of those, though... yeah, here's your ID. which doesn't cost much, and is valid for ten years.
Le Poupon Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.02.19 14:54:00 - [54] Originally by: Slade Trillgon I am in the middle. I am against it for the same reasons you are, but I also see the potential benefits. So what I propose is that make it voluntary for non-criminal citizens, say for people that are willing and/or their children, also make them mandatory for all who commit and are convicted of any felony. Slade You don't need to commit it to be convicted. In response to the people saying theydon't want to be watched: Mobile phones. CCTV (now with brandspanking new journey predictions via your car's reg. plate) Direct tap to all phonecalls and the ability to send any instantly to the FBI. The watching isn't so much to catch criminals. They can do that by this now forgotten word known as "investigation". They watch to police ideologies and anything that potentialy disagrees with thier way of functioning. -------sig------------------------------------ A higher grade of posting In many ways this game is alot like how Obama and Bush are related.
ceaon Gallente	Posted - 2009.02.19 15:29:00 - [55] Originally by: Le Poupon They watch to police ideologies and anything that potentialy disagrees with thier way of functioning. this Somos universales, Pero andamos como el resto de los mortales, Ocultando nuestros miedos, Parece que no pero las guapas tambien se tiran pedos, Tambien los listos sumamos con los dedos.
TraininVain	Posted - 2009.02.19 15:36:00 - [56] Originally by: Jago Kain I think civil disobedience is the order of the day and, at the risk of actually agreeing with Dantes Emorage, I have no intention of nerfing my civil liberties by applying for or carrying one of these should the govt. ever manage to force them through. When Jago Kain agrees with Dante on something you know that it's serious.
Jacob Mei	Posted - 2009.02.19 16:47:00 - [57] Originally by: Tinky Winkey Why do people always get their knickers in a twist when ID cards are mentioned.Why would the government want to track you ? Why is it an invasion of privacy ? If they wanted information on you they have no need to resort to an ID card you think ? The government could watch you and track you now without you knowing it, this anti ID card phopia people have is just the last remanents of a defunct left wing ideology. Please get over it. To answer most of your questions: "Papers, where are your papers!" Your right though that the government can track you if they really wanted to. With the number of security cameras (while no where near as many as the UK has in some places), GPS coming standard on phones and cars and what not you would really have to shed alot of things you take for granted these days and avoid even the most basic urban area these days. Though to answer your why would the government want to track you question your government may NOT want to track you but a future government, say one that has made it clear they want to do some ethnic cleansing based on the religion you were born into might have great interest in tracking you via any means they can. The thing about ID cards is that its the most over used form of totalitarian symbolism used by the media that its its ingrained in the minds of most western culture observers to have a natural reflex to be defiant of it. The irony of this though is many of us cant wait for age 16-18 when we can get our first drivers license which often times IS the papers needed to show proof of who we are. Also, I wouldnÆt say its an invasion of privacy per say but more of an incontinence for us as to have private information such as name, address, social security number and so forth all on one card makes it easy for pick pockets and purse snatchers to commit identity theft. -------------------------------- To borrow a phrase: Players who post are like stars, there are bright ones and those who are dim.
Doctor Penguin Amarr Shadow Command Tenth Legion	Posted - 2009.02.19 16:58:00 - [58] First they came for the religious extremists. And I did not mind, because I was not a religious extremist... ________________________________________________
Xen Gin Universal Mining Inc. Forged Dominion	Posted - 2009.02.19 17:01:00 - [59] Against, there is nothing good that can come from ID cards.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.19 17:25:00 - [60] Edited by: Rodj Blake on 19/02/2009 17:27:27 I am not a number, I am a free man. It's not just the cards that are the issue, it's the database that supports the system.
Micheal Dietrich Caldari Terradyne Networks Terradyne Networks Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.19 17:54:00 - [61] Originally by: Jhagiti Tyran Originally by: Micheal Dietrich A marine was sought after for murder a little while back. He made it from the East coast to Mexico and remained there for 3 weeks undetected before a family member reported him to the authorities. So the tracking as it stands now is not as great as one would think. With an ID card and chip you could simply pass through a sensor somewhere and it brings you up on map, especially if your name is keyworded into a search. Of course you could always lose the ID if your on the run but if they make it mandatory to have one to even buy like a candy bar then your kind of fubar'd On the plus side though if someone stole your identity they'd know exactly where the perp is. Surely this argument is a case for identity cards? Not really saying if I'm for or against although excellent points are made for pro and con. Was just pointing out that surveillance isn't like what you see in hollywood. If it were we wouldn't have a top 10 fugitive list or missing children or whatever else. Personally though I love being invisible. I can disappear for months at a time and people can't track me. But then again how many people are looking for me exactly.
soldieroffortune 258 Gallente Horsemen of Apocalypse	Posted - 2009.02.19 19:38:00 - [62] Edited by: soldieroffortune 258 on 19/02/2009 19:38:56 Originally by: Tinky Winkey Why do people always get their knickers in a twist when ID cards are mentioned.Why would the government want to track you ? Why is it an invasion of privacy ? If they wanted information on you they have no need to resort to an ID card you think ? The government could watch you and track you now without you knowing it, this anti ID card phopia people have is just the last remanents of a defunct left wing ideology. Please get over it. i dont know, if they government forces you to have a GPS chip in your ID or w/ever, true, they can still track you IF they wanted to even without the chip, however, with the chip it makes it like 10x easier to do so, lots more costly to wire cameras in your house () or have a van tail you or whatever Originally by: Xen Gin Originally by: FOl2TY8 I know that some people like to have voluntary periods of abstinence. Yeah, I use that excuse too.
rValdez5987 Amarr 32nd Amarrian Imperial Navy Regiment.	Posted - 2009.02.19 19:52:00 - [63] Originally by: TraininVain Edited by: TraininVain on 19/02/2009 10:26:12 RValdez (and everyone else), the government have no special qualifications to do this stuff. They're just the guys that got voted in. I know when you say "The government" it brings to mind all sorts of warm fuzzy ideas about authority and institutions but try for the sake of argument asking whether you'd want your next door neighbour to have this power. I forget to mention that I am an authoritarian and I do not support democracy. My vision of proper government is one that is in full control, and operates with the well-being of its people in mind. The problem with my visions for government and the world, and the fact that they will NEVER be realized is this. Mankind is not intelligent enough to carry them out. It can't work because there are far too many people who want freedom just for the sake of having it, without even knowing what to do with it. Too many people want just for the sake of wanting. They focus on the here and now rather then the future or what comes next. They cling to material goods which in the long run have no value. People don't think. Man is too primitive. Maybe in a few hundred years this will be different although I doubt it. Mankind needs someone capable of unifying everyone on earth, and leading us into a future that will benefit everyone who works for it. There isn't anyone capable of this, and even if there was, the Christians refer to him as the antichrist. Mankind will someday hit a brick wall for its advancement, and die. And before people ask "why do you think your so intelligent" I don't. I have flaws too. If I had power I'd be tempted to abuse it as anyone else through my hatred of some of mankind's flaws. I'd be tempted to forcefully erase them through extermination rather then going through the trouble of rehabilitation which is what some of mankind needs. At the end of the day, as I already said, our best bet is to just let democracy do its thing, as there is no one capable of responsibly leading an authoritarian style of government. _________________________________________ Soon to be in a new home
Jago Kain Amarr Pan Galactic Traders	Posted - 2009.02.19 20:08:00 - [64] Originally by: rValdez5987 I forget to mention that I am an authoritarian and I do not support democracy. My vision of proper government is one that is in full control, and operates with the well-being of its people in mind. The problem with my visions for government and the world, and the fact that they will NEVER be realized is this. Mankind is not intelligent enough to carry them out. It can't work because there are far too many people who want freedom just for the sake of having it, without even knowing what to do with it. Too many people want just for the sake of wanting. They focus on the here and now rather then the future or what comes next. They cling to material goods which in the long run have no value. People don't think. Man is too primitive. Maybe in a few hundred years this will be different although I doubt it. Mankind needs someone capable of unifying everyone on earth, and leading us into a future that will benefit everyone who works for it. There isn't anyone capable of this, and even if there was, the Christians refer to him as the antichrist. Mankind will someday hit a brick wall for its advancement, and die. And before people ask "why do you think your so intelligent" I don't. I have flaws too. If I had power I'd be tempted to abuse it as anyone else through my hatred of some of mankind's flaws. I'd be tempted to forcefully erase them through extermination rather then going through the trouble of rehabilitation which is what some of mankind needs. At the end of the day, as I already said, our best bet is to just let democracy do its thing, as there is no one capable of responsibly leading an authoritarian style of government. Wow! I'll bet you're great fun at parties. ___________________________________________________ The game will never be over, because we're keeping the meme alive.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.02.19 20:23:00 - [65] Originally by: 7shining7one7 also it's not the general consensus that ppl wants a chip in them.. not on this forum either. For now. Give it time, fix the security issues, and I bet you'll see a very different opinion. I'm looking forward to my integrated brain computer upgrades, thank you. Quote: many of the regular trolls on this forum have been discovered to be closet facists and puppets how ever much they will lie and deny that fact.. Repeating a lie does not make it true. I've challenged you to explain in plain english exactly why I am a "fascist", but just like all your other bull** claims, you have refused to support it. No doubt due to the fact that you don't actually know what "fascist" really means... Quote: their MO seems to start off pretending they are just like you I have never pretended to be just like you. I have made it clear from my first post that you are a bull troll and a delusional idiot. Quote: and then gradually trying to nudge you towards their facist views. There you go with your lying. Do you really think that if you repeat this "fascist" lie often enough people will believe you? Quote: Be aware of this. also god knows how many alts they have for the same purpose when it gets too obvious what they are doing on their mains and when they need someone to back up the insanity of what they are saying. Tinfoil hat much? Here's a hint, idiot: I have used an alt exactly twice while arguing with you, and both times I have been perfectly open about the fact that it's an alt: once when my main was banned for 14 days, and once to make sure you read my victory speech when you claimed to have Merin on your ignore list. Quote:** i've witnessed their immense duplicity on so many occations.. they'll start by calling me nuts and then say that microchips are good for you.. Microchips are not good for you right now. IMO, they have a lot of potential, but the technology has too many issues at the moment for it to be a very practical idea. Quote: then they'll say i'm nuts again (what a surprise) and then say that a dictatorial one world government is a good thing.. Funny how you repeat this little bit of tinfoil hat insanity, but you have never explained WHY a one-world government would be a bad thing. For the record, I don't have a position either way. A single government would have a lot of major advantages, but I'm not 100% sure they would out-weigh the potential problems, even if it was even remotely plausible to form one. Quote: and so on.. their trolling consists of character assasination attempts and spin of info presented or just drowning the information in irellevant spam posts or posts with personal attacks etc. and trying to get threads locked. Funny, but YOU started the personal attacks. I was perfectly happy to stick to the issue for debate until you decided that attacking (your fantasy version of) my personal life was a good way to distract everyone from the fact that you were getting humiliated in the real debate. -----------
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.02.19 20:27:00 - [66] As for the OP: stop being paranoid. You can already be tracked just fine. Do you carry a driver's license? Do you use a credit card, cell phone, etc? As you said, you already have a passport. The only thing a single ID card does is simplify everything and improve efficiency of information sharing. Besides, it's not like anyone is going to track you anyway. Think for a second, about just how staggeringly *huge* that database would be. There's no way anyone could monitor the movements of every random person, unless you attract attention for some other reason, you're just going to be one random entry in a long-forgotten database somewhere. And if you have attracted that attention, they're going to find you anyway. -----------
Cmdr Sy Appetite 4 Destruction The Firm.	Posted - 2009.02.19 23:48:00 - [67] Originally by: Merin Ryskin As for the OP: stop being paranoid. You can already be tracked just fine. Do you carry a driver's license? Do you use a credit card, cell phone, etc? As you said, you already have a passport. The only thing a single ID card does is - - waste taxpayer money through yet another layer of duplication. I know they have everything on me they could possibly need. I am damned if I am forking out yet again for more of the same BS. Papers? If all of the above is not good enough, they can get bent. ****, it's not like there is a cell anywhere in the same county for any of us most nights.
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.02.20 01:21:00 - [68] Edited by: Merin Ryskin on 20/02/2009 01:22:29 Originally by: Cmdr Sy Originally by: Merin Ryskin As for the OP: stop being paranoid. You can already be tracked just fine. Do you carry a driver's license? Do you use a credit card, cell phone, etc? As you said, you already have a passport. The only thing a single ID card does is - - waste taxpayer money through yet another layer of duplication. I know they have everything on me they could possibly need. I am damned if I am forking out yet again for more of the same BS. Papers? If all of the above is not good enough, they can get bent. ****, it's not like there is a cell anywhere in the same county for any of us most nights. Done right, it isn't duplicating anything. Think about it this way: right now, just in my wallet, I have the following items: driver's license, pilot's license, university ID, debit card, backup credit card, health insurance card. Add in a passport if I want to go anywhere outside the US, various other government papers that stay at home, etc, and it's a pretty big stack of stuff. Granted, some of those are from private businesses, but three of them (driver's license, pilot's license, university ID) are government-issued, and could easily be covered by a national ID system. On the other hand, I could have a single ID card that replaces all of that. Doesn't sound so silly anymore, does it? -----------
Bish Ounen Gallente Best Path Inc. Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.02.20 01:40:00 - [69] Against. Not because I think the govt. will track me with them (Although that CAN be done theoretically, but would require a very extensive RFID sensor network to do properly.) but because they have ZERO security. Even the so-called "secure" RFID cards are totally insecure, using easily cracked weak hashes. It has already been demonstrated that with off-the-shelf parts, you can drive around with a laptop and an RFID antenna and clone people's RFID passports and other RFID documents. You think identity theft is bad NOW? Wait until EVERYTHING is RFID! One day you will be sitting at home, and the police will execute a "no-knock" warrant on you because they have RFID records of you being at a murder scene at precisely the time the murder happened. The only problem for you is that you were sitting at home all evening, and the murderer cloned YOUR RIFD onto his documents before committing the murder. Do you think a non-technical Judge trained to accept that "computers don't lie" will accept the "My ID was cloned" defense? Really? The same goes for your credit cards and all your other important documents. Once someone can easily make a digital copy of them without even having to SEE them, just by walking or driving in your vicinity with the proper hardware, ANY AND ALL document security is lost. Do what I did. Put your "enhanced" documents in the microwave for a 30 second spin. It'll kill the RFID chip but leave your documents otherwise undamaged. They still work the old fashioned way, and since it's a new document, the authorities will have to accept it anyway. Fix the Wardec System!
Evthron Macyntire	Posted - 2009.02.20 01:42:00 - [70] Originally by: 7shining7one7 Originally by: Jorev Dannel Originally by: rValdez5987 I'm for National ID, preferably as a chip that is inserted into your arm surgically in such a way that it cannot be removed except by a special confidential method. I'm surprised so many people are in favour of such implants. Some very obvious problems with this: 1. You're storing vital information in a way that can be destroyed or lost just when you need it the most. People start relying on the chip for medical history, then there's a big accident with severed and crushed limbs and suddenly people can't cope without the access they're used to. 2. Three letters: MRI. Throw all the machines away, everyone's got metal in their bodies so you can't place them in giant magnets anymore. 3. Dog Wags the Tail: It's not the medium that's important, it's the information that's stored on the medium. Unless you want to subject a patient to surgery every time his medical information needs an update, it'd be possible to read and write to and from the implant externally, which means the information would be hackable by anyone sooner or later. 4. Toxicity and Failure: Allergies, blood clots, problem of operating on people with conditions like hemophillia, etc. It's a massive time and resource cost and would inevitably lead to exceptions to the rule existing, which con-men could exploit. 5. Uncheckable Chips: If it requires surgery to put it in, you've no way to know if it's even there later on. If you can't read the chip is it because it's failed from wear and tear, or has it been removed? Is your equipment malfunctioning? Has the data on the chip become corrupted? Performing surgery to find out leads to lawsuits and misery when someone ends up dying because some guy's scanner was badly maintained. 6. Faking It: How does the scanner know it's scanning the inside of your arm? Why not put a fake chip in a lead armband and instantly become someone else for all methods involving remote sensors? 7. Psyche! The information on the chip can be read, so it can be copied. Copy it to a blank chip six or seven hundred times. Boom! You're everywhere. Or someone else is everywhere. 8. Confidential method? It's just flesh and bone. Nothing you can do will make an implant in the human body impossible to remove. The only way to make it hard is to make it dangerous and that's just not feasable on a large number of recipients because it'll generate a large number of errors when you're putting the darn things in. 9. I'll take that... if your bank can scan your bank information without operating on your arm, that guy trying to steal your bank information can scan it too without ever even touching you. It's just a big black hole of impossibilities and failures. QFT 1. It's common sense to have backups of important information, the chip would be the fastest way possible to retrieve information, if the chip is broken then information would need to be gotten the traditional way. 2. The mythbusters tested this. It's safe, 100%. 3. True. 4. The implant the chip on your body in a spot where it will never move. Freak accidents might happen, but it's so unlikely that it's not even considered. 5. They put chips into dogs with a needle, they would do the same with a person. 6. I assume it would be a more sophisticated barcode. You can scan a barcode at any store, but the product information will only show if the store has it. Same idea as paper money, presses are pretty much impossible to come by, which is why only the government has them. 7. Identity theft? It happens now, it will happen later. It's not the end of the world. 8. The chip can be implanted when you get your SIN number, the number will be unique to you. The chip will be unique to you. 9. You have to be wuthin a few inches to scan dog chips, it wouldn't be hard to put a pin number on the tag that the person would only know. It's a big black hole of improbabilities you mean.
Xen Gin Universal Mining Inc. Forged Dominion	Posted - 2009.02.20 01:50:00 - [71] Edited by: Xen Gin on 20/02/2009 01:52:42 Originally by: Merin Ryskin On the other hand, I could have a single ID card that replaces all of that. Doesn't sound so silly anymore, does it? On the other hand you do have a centralised object of weakness and a single point of failure. How do you confirm your identity if someone hijacks your card and data? If an ID card carries biometric data, the data can be changed to someone else or forged. If its linked to a database for cross checking, its on-line, it's vulnerable, just imagine how much damage Russian or Chinese hackers could do when they get in, not IF, WHEN, because they will. If you're going to act on ID cards you either don't do it, or you go full out making is law to require them at all times (which presents so many issues). And what is with people telling us that we're all tracked all the time. No we're not, we're tracked at intervals. Mobile Phones, Not all phones have GPS, those that do can turn them off in the settings usually. Tracking you via cells: Cells can cover huge open areas, many miles, they do not give an exact location. Or just turn the damn thing off. CCTV. In the UK it's actually "Little Sister", There isn't this Hollywood/Spooks giant on-line network of cameras, Its individual corporations that are secure, and many aren't on-line, The High Street camera network linked to the Police is quite small. And the cameras that cover the motorway system aren't hi-res enough (or even in colour) to track you by ANPR. ------ Originally by: Rifter Drifter News just in.. Games are a pastime.. not a way of life. If your not enjoying, stop playing, and don't post about it.
Dantes Revenge Caldari	Posted - 2009.02.20 06:00:00 - [72] Originally by: TraininVain When Jago Kain agrees with Dante on something you know that it's serious. Yea, that took me by surprise too I really think the general consensus so far is against them. The fact that the government have come up with this idea but have not included the readers into the equation leaves me a bit worried about security. My feeling is that of a knee jerk reaction to a problem with no real thought put into it. A lot of posters have made the issue of cloned ID's and truthfully, this is one of my initial worries. Using a card to cross borders with a pin is one thing but a criminal isn't going to enter a pin code into a machine when he's robbing a bank but it's possible that the ID card is still being scanned. Your ID card that he cloned is now placing you inside the bank at that time and unless you have a cast iron alibi, you're in for a lot of problems proving your innocence. CCTV camera snapshots are not always a good enough quality to identify people. There's no doubt that terrorists will use that fact to find people who look similar and scan and clone their ID. That guy who left that bag on the train that went boom was holding your ID card and from CCTV footage he also looks enough like you for the police to convict on this evidence alone. Now you have a real problem, which one was the clone? The one at your house or the one at the station? No doubt that will be down to you to prove. Massive databases? Not a problem since there are already so many huge databases already that hold data about you. Any one of them can be searched and everything about any individual brought up on screen. Now add every step you took on your way out to buy sugar yesterday via the GPS tracking system in your ID card. If they make it compulsory and give them away rather than make us pay, mine is going to tell them nothing because I will incinerate it as soon as I get it before I even take it home. The authorities already have enough data about me, I am not about to let them have any more than I can avoid. No, I do not have a drivers license. No, I do not have a credit or debit card, I have a mobile which is PAYG but the sim is not registered and only close friends have the number, I have a passport but have only ever used it to get a bank account years ago at a different address to the one I am in now, otherwise I have only used it to travel abroad. I do not pay council tax since it's included in my rent to my landlord and he pays it. Even my bank account only has the P.O. Box number as an address since I used it when I was temporarily homeless and never changed it, the P.O. Box has no address since I didn't update it with an address when I moved in to my present home. My doctor, Dentist and everybody has the same P.O Box number so, in effect, I am untraceable which is how I like it. I am a security officer and have nothing to hide but I learned long ago that it's not always wise to volunteer information. I do all this out of choice rather than necessity But it just proves how easy it is to 'disappear'. No doubt Terrorists already know these tactics so the ID card is going to do absolutely nothing to catch them. On camera, it shows 21 people. GPS shows only 20 but which one isn't carrying their ID? By the time they've identified which one was the terrorist, the bomb has gone off and the terrorist has disappeared again. All they have is a fuzzy CCTV picture which is no better than the current system allows. Yep, that's really going to work -- Originally by: CCP Whisper No it is not an official statement. Not everything surrounded by blue bars is an official statement which can be quoted as fact until the end of time. Deal with it.
F'elch	Posted - 2009.02.20 09:49:00 - [73] For those of you who still doubt your freedom is being whittled away: Linkage
Nebulous Minmatar Thukker Zoku	Posted - 2009.02.20 10:22:00 - [74] It seems that most people are in favour of I.D. cards and chips because of criminal and/or terrorist elements, problem is that both of these are caused by an ill constructed society, a society that is spawned from "Monetarism", instead of investing in ways to stop crime we should be focusing on preventing it, but seeing as politicians come from financial/law backgrounds then that is never going to happen, politicians have no idea about social design and human behaviour. Oh and btw, I.D. chips and cards may help catch criminals but it won't prevent the act from happening (as proven with CCTV, people seem to be more than willing to commit crime infront of cameras), is catching the person that killed your mom, dad or wife going to bring them back to life? The simple answer is "no". Remove the Monetary system from our society and you also remove 95% of crime, that is the way forward.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.02.20 10:23:00 - [75] In short: I'm very strongly opposed to them.
Ratchman	Posted - 2009.02.20 11:38:00 - [76] My main objection would be the fact that I think it will be rendered useless anyway. Anyone who is determined enough is going to circumvent the technology, and you can bet we will still need our passports and driving licences. And paying for the privilage of having a card with your details on a system that will either be hacked, or left on a laptop on a train somewhere is frankly an insult. ID cards are a knee-jerk reaction. If you want an anti-terrorist measure, then spend the money on developing the counter-terrorist agencies. The ID card system will be blown wide open within 5 years of implementation, as all government databases are. The big brother argument doesn't really hold water, as we already live in a surveillance society. There is one thing that stops our society becoming Orwellian, and that is the fact that penny-pinching government departments means there's no-one being paid to watch those screens. Even if they got some kind of technological solution (facial recognition software, etc), they would go the cheapest route that didn't really work. Ironically, it's democracy's main failing that stops the Orwellian nightmare from existing.
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.20 11:38:00 - [77] Interesting development Since the government has a track record of releasing or leaking anything that might back up its policies, it's not beyond the realms of possiblility that the reports will highlight the problems with the scheme. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Ratchman	Posted - 2009.02.20 11:40:00 - [78] Originally by: Jago Kain Originally by: rValdez5987 I forget to mention that I am an authoritarian and I do not support democracy. My vision of proper government is one that is in full control, and operates with the well-being of its people in mind. The problem with my visions for government and the world, and the fact that they will NEVER be realized is this. Mankind is not intelligent enough to carry them out. It can't work because there are far too many people who want freedom just for the sake of having it, without even knowing what to do with it. Too many people want just for the sake of wanting. They focus on the here and now rather then the future or what comes next. They cling to material goods which in the long run have no value. People don't think. Man is too primitive. Maybe in a few hundred years this will be different although I doubt it. Mankind needs someone capable of unifying everyone on earth, and leading us into a future that will benefit everyone who works for it. There isn't anyone capable of this, and even if there was, the Christians refer to him as the antichrist. Mankind will someday hit a brick wall for its advancement, and die. And before people ask "why do you think your so intelligent" I don't. I have flaws too. If I had power I'd be tempted to abuse it as anyone else through my hatred of some of mankind's flaws. I'd be tempted to forcefully erase them through extermination rather then going through the trouble of rehabilitation which is what some of mankind needs. At the end of the day, as I already said, our best bet is to just let democracy do its thing, as there is no one capable of responsibly leading an authoritarian style of government. Wow! I'll bet you're great fun at parties. Women do love a man in uniform, though.
Ratchman	Posted - 2009.02.20 12:09:00 - [79] Just to add something else: I'm not opposed to the ID card as a practical substitute to other forms of ID, or if it worked as an anti-terrorist method, but I fail to be convinced it will work in either way. And if it was implemented, it will be abused, as this is the nature of these things. Even if the technology succeeds, humans fail. There have been many civil liberties eroded over the past ten years, but it's mostly fringe stuff, the stuff people don't notice. Unfortunately, this creeping rot won't provoke a reaction in most people until something major happens, by which time, it becomes much harder to stop. Legislature can be very broadly interpreted at times, and it is here that the problems occur. For example, when Raves were the popular thing amongst the youth, a section was added to the Criminal Justice Bill that ensured that that unlicenced gatherings of more than three people could be considered illegal. However, this could be interpreted to include impromptu barbeques. Of course, no policeman is ever going to arrest you for having a barbeque, but it is legally permissible. I'm not sure about exact detail, as I am retrieving this from memory, but this legislature does exist. It may sound lunatic, but it is real. I don't think we will ever get to the 1984 vision of things, but we do have to be careful, because little things are constantly happening that erode our individual freedom. As someone once said, the price of freedom is eternal vigilance.
Cmdr Sy Appetite 4 Destruction The Firm.	Posted - 2009.02.20 17:43:00 - [80] The single point of failure thing is a big concern. Throw in social engineering and people with malicious intent can compromise most things some of the time. It is not worth going there.
jinkoti boslin2	Posted - 2009.02.20 18:07:00 - [81] Edited by: jinkoti boslin2 on 20/02/2009 18:09:11 Massively against ID cards. We have a right to privacy (and piracy.. but only in game) and anonymity! These things are usually justified as being an anti terror measure, and then misused by the powers that be for spying on the masses.. If you doubt that this can happen please read this Link
Dantes Revenge Caldari	Posted - 2009.02.20 19:31:00 - [82] Originally by: Rodj Blake Interesting development It almost quotes what I said above. Quote: Liberal Democrat home affairs spokesman Chris Huhne said: "The government is increasingly realising that its ID card scheme is a laminated poll tax with all the same toxic ability to make it unpopular." It seems someone else has done the math too. -- Originally by: CCP Whisper No it is not an official statement. Not everything surrounded by blue bars is an official statement which can be quoted as fact until the end of time. Deal with it.
Nuala Reece Caldari Starlancers SYSTEM SHOCK INITIATIVE	Posted - 2009.02.21 00:03:00 - [83] I'm opposed to the Identity Register as proposed for the UK and have been since the idea was first presented. None of the arguments made in favour of it hold any water, and this can be seen in the way the government has stepped away from using them in favour of arguing how much simpler they'll make things. ID cards won't prevent terrorism or organized crime - terrorist attacks and serious organized crime have continued to occur in countries that already have ID schemes (like the Spanish train bomb, for eg). The perpetrators either already have valid ID or have the financial and organizational backup to obtain fakes. ID cards won't prevent identity fraud - they're in fact likely to increase it as the more we rely on a single form of id the more valuable a commodity that id becomes. Being on the ID Register won't be voluntary - the system simply won't work unless everyone is included. This is what David Blunkett meant with his Orwellian phrase "ID cards won't be compulsory, but everyone will have to have one" The database will be costly to set up and costly to maintain. We will have to pay for the privilege of going on the register and businesses and public services will have to pay for the scanners to read cards when they are introduced (this cost, incidentally, hasn't been included in the government's cost estimates). The Government's track record of getting complex computer databases to work is appalling, and nothing that's been done before comes even remotely close to the size and scale of a National ID Register. What happens if you need to access a service and the database isn't accessible, or has lost your data? If you have nothing to hide you do still have things to fear. Like the loss of our rights to privacy and freedom to an increasingly controlling government. And the risk of mis-identification - biometric technology such as iris scans (which is favoured by some in government) has been shown to be particulalry prone to error for certain groups, such as young people, disabled people and people of african and asian ethnicity. The amount and type of data to be stored on the Register is worryingly vague also. It may start with name, addresss, age, national insurance number for eg, but there's little or no protection in the current legislation to prevent the data required being added to. Further to this the UK Government intends to sell portions of people's data to private companies as a way to recoup some off the costs. Since we'll be required to be on the Register we'll have then lost our right to have our data considered confidential. The register has already been started up in the UK, with foreign nationals to be required to register first and 'trials' to be run in 2 UK airports in which all airside workers will be forced to have an ID card. The Government's been developing a pretty disturbing trend toward dirty tricks and sly tactics to foist the increasingly unpopular scheme on to people. A leaked memo last year identified the plan to roll the scheme out on 'soft targets' (that's the foreign nationals, airside workers, child care workers and young people). Foreign nationals obviously have visas they'll want to keep (which they might not get if they refuse to register), and airside workers and child care workers face losing their jobs if they refuse to register. Young people are simply being patronised - the government has been pushing policies like Challenge 18, Challenge 21 and Challenge 25, whereby alcohol and tobacco sellers are encouraged to challenge people for proof of age even if they are older than they need to be to buy them. By this, it's hoped, young people will come to believe that having an ID card will make it easier for them to buy alcohol and cigarettes.
Nuala Reece Caldari Starlancers SYSTEM SHOCK INITIATIVE	Posted - 2009.02.21 00:04:00 - [84] Young people have proven to be smarter than the politicians gave them credit for. The Government set up a consultation website for young people to express their support for the register and promised to feedback the summary of the consultation on the site. Feedback was overwhelmingly negative and the site was taken down the day the consultation ended, with no timescale given for publishing the results. Similar resistance has begun as the rollout in airports came closer. The planned introduction to all airports was scrapped and scaled back to trials at only 2; even with this the British Airline Pilot's Association stated last week that it's pilots will refuse to take part in the scheme which they described as "nothing but coercion" adding that the cards have " absolutely no value as far as security is concerned". The Government continues to push their scheme but has consistently failed to provide convincing arguments for why it's necessary. It seems even they have begun to recognise this as more recently they've been framing their arguments in terms of how much more convenient and easy an ID Register will make things. Of course, making things easier for people on the register means making it harder for people who won't sign up and so we will all be encouraged to trade our privacy and freedom for the sake of comfort. That seems like a pretty poor deal to me as I persoanlly disagree with the notion that the government can protect our rights and freedoms by restricting them.
TraininVain	Posted - 2009.02.21 01:01:00 - [85] Originally by: Merin Ryskin Besides, it's not like anyone is going to track you anyway. Think for a second, about just how staggeringly *huge* that database would be. There's no way anyone could monitor the movements of every random person, unless you attract attention for some other reason, you're just going to be one random entry in a long-forgotten database somewhere. And if you have attracted that attention, they're going to find you anyway. Data mining. They already do it on certain databases. I just know the temptation will be too great for them to resist once they've got all these different types of data in one place.
Gabrialle Amarr Sanctuary Logistical Industries Inc	Posted - 2009.02.21 14:23:00 - [86] Originally by: Myrhial Arkenath Nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide. This always makes me laugh. Fine we'll have I.D. cards why not i have nothing to hide. then 6 months later our law makers decide S&M isnt just a mild form of insanity (as it is under UK law at the moment) but is infact the spawn of all evil and must be stamped out with a jack boot. What then? And before you say 'oh well we wont let that law get through' when was the last time a petition actually blocked a law? if it even goes through parliament instead of just a quick rewrite of an existing law. GENERATION 21: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
annoing	Posted - 2009.02.21 14:58:00 - [87] 4 Personal freedom is an illusion, freedom of speech doubly so. As we cant revert the fear movement by big government(here and every other 'cilvilised' country) we may as well go all the way. Only then will we realise what we are missing and only then will we truely fight back.
Jorev Dannel Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2009.02.21 15:38:00 - [88] Edited by: Jorev Dannel on 21/02/2009 15:40:42 Quote: It's a big black hole of improbabilities you mean. Not really...you can go through the list of obvious fails one by one if you like, you're still left with the fundamental reality that an "implant" has no actual advantages* over a card and hundreds of peculiar, impractical, nonsensical disadvantages. * Actually I take that back, it does have the advantage of being useful to ID dead or unconscious people who aren't carrying their wallets. But still, it's extremely silly. ---------------------------------------- All dressed in uniforms so fine, They drank and killed to pass the time Wearing the shame of all their crimes With measured steps they walked in line
mamolian Cruoris Seraphim	Posted - 2009.02.21 17:31:00 - [89] Some amount of **ing ****s on this forum.. -----------
Dantes Revenge Caldari	Posted - 2009.02.21 19:32:00 - [90] Originally by: Gabrialle Originally by: Myrhial Arkenath Nothing to fear if you have nothing to hide. This always makes me laugh. Same here. My biggest worry is what information will get added to the register in time. Bad debts are one thing but we already know that the companies who keep the bad debt registers currently "forget" to remove wrong entries. They simply add a note to say is's incorrect. Nobody looks at the notes, they simply count how many entries there are to decide if you are worthy to get a bank account, credit card, loan or more recently, even hire a car. I remember the screw up with the SIA licenses and the time it took for some security guards to get them. I also remember how many illegal immigrants were granted licenses. With the governments track record, I have no doubt there will be tens of thousands of illegal immigrants that suddenly gain a legal status and get issued an ID card. -- Originally by: CCP Whisper No it is not an official statement. Not everything surrounded by blue bars is an official statement which can be quoted as fact until the end of time. Deal with it.
Jago Kain Amarr Pan Galactic Traders	Posted - 2009.02.21 19:49:00 - [91] Originally by: Dantes Revenge .... With the governments track record, I have no doubt there will be tens of thousands of illegal immigrants that suddenly gain a legal status and get issued an ID card. Richard Littlejohn is alive and well and stalking internet space-ship forums. You couldn't make it up/This country is going to the dogs/Bloody foreigners taking our jobs (delete as applicable) ___________________________________________________ The game will never be over, because we're keeping the meme alive.
annoing	Posted - 2009.02.21 20:34:00 - [92] Originally by: Jago Kain Richard Littlejohn is alive and well and stalking internet space-ship forums. You couldn't make it up/This country is going to the dogs/Bloody foreigners taking our jobs (delete as applicable) Surely you mean Shanzem the well known UK hater?
Le Poupon Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.02.21 21:08:00 - [93] Questions for rValdez5987: For whom do you believe this unified all powerful government will function and to what extent should it have control. Does it control everything to the point of thought and humanity remains a mechanical instrument in its own circular motion? What do we achieve at the end of a day of being told what to do? Questions for Merrin Ryskin: Your perspective is very interesting and I would like to ask what you believe the ultimate goal to social construct is. Do you believe in an apocalyptic world as a result of a lack of control? Do you believe commercialism socialism and fascism to be natural states of order or constructions, and if constructions then in whose favour? -------sig------------------------------------ A higher grade of posting Can anyone help me, I still don't know what systems i can buy an epic mount if i play undead.
rubico1337 Caldari Team Nugget	Posted - 2009.02.22 03:25:00 - [94] just as a disclaimer, i am an American, it seems like the majority of posters here are british i have heard that national ID cards is a political issue in britan, that would really not worry me. there are ideas here in amercia about banning the teaching of evolution from schools, but that will never happen so there isnt that much to fear. what scares the crap out of me is the number of posters here who not only wouldnt mind seeing ID cards, but are in favor of having some sort of biometric implant that is monitored by the government ARE YOU **ING SERIOUS? is this assault on privacy in the name of "security" and other bull really making headway among the people of great Britain? are you really willing to give the government the ability to track you, know what you bought at the store, etc? governments are composed of men, men with motives of power, greed, selfishness, ideological inflexibility. all government is flawed on a fundamental level. the only reason it exists is because it needs to regulate and provide public goods(national defense, roads, police/firemen, environmental regulations, etc) the more power you give the government, the more likely those in pwoer will abuse it. i for one, do not trust those in power to look after anyone's well being other than their own. in America we have several independent branches of government so that one group does not wield total control over the government for this very reason id really liek to know from those who wouldnt mind such an implant if they have considered this and if they are all just elaborate trolls then good job. guess ive been had. Originally by:** Blind Man okies so liek when u warp in on them u shod target them... and stuff k.then u FIRE ZE MISSILES and use your heavy nos cause it drain their cap then u click the jhammer and dampenener
Izzy Lizzy Gallente Mean Corp	Posted - 2009.02.22 07:43:00 - [95] I've noticed several posts with the statement that the government can already track you if it want's, so what's the big deal. My point is I'd rather not make it legal for them to track me. If they want to do such a thing without cause I want them to have to break their own laws to do it. That way, it'l have the sting of justice when I rebel and impail their heads on pikes in the public square. And whoever said you have nothing to worry about if you have nothing to hide is obviously ignoring the entirety of human history. How many innocent people have been forced to hide things they should have never had to because some tyranical government had too much power and control. Government is the most violent institution that has ever existed, not counting wars. In the 20th century alone governments murdered over 100 million of their own citizens. Why in the world would any of you in your right minds possibly entertain the notion of giving any institution with that kind of track record more power!!
Nebulous Minmatar Thukker Zoku	Posted - 2009.02.22 09:42:00 - [96] Originally by: Izzy Lizzy How many innocent people have been forced to hide things they should have never had to because some tyranical government had too much power and control. Good point, there was a time when if someone could do a magic trick (card trick etc) then they would be burned alive for engaging in witchcraft. I guess the main point is that once tracking chips/cards are in place the government will just bring in tougher laws i.e. if they can know you have spat chewing gum onto the pavement (sidewalk in america ) from the data on your chip then you will get a knock on your door and will be taken to the nearest town centre to have your head chopped off, a bit far fetched I know, but people see my point I hope. ----------------------------------------------
Nebulous Minmatar Thukker Zoku	Posted - 2009.02.22 09:56:00 - [97] Originally by: rValdez5987 I forget to mention that I am an authoritarian and I do not support democracy. My vision of proper government is one that is in full control, and operates with the well-being of its people in mind. The problem with my visions for government and the world, and the fact that they will NEVER be realized is this. Mankind is not intelligent enough to carry them out. It can't work because there are far too many people who want freedom just for the sake of having it, without even knowing what to do with it. Too many people want just for the sake of wanting. They focus on the here and now rather then the future or what comes next. They cling to material goods which in the long run have no value. People don't think. Man is too primitive. Maybe in a few hundred years this will be different although I doubt it. Mankind needs someone capable of unifying everyone on earth, and leading us into a future that will benefit everyone who works for it. There isn't anyone capable of this, and even if there was, the Christians refer to him as the antichrist. Mankind will someday hit a brick wall for its advancement, and die. And before people ask "why do you think your so intelligent" I don't. I have flaws too. If I had power I'd be tempted to abuse it as anyone else through my hatred of some of mankind's flaws. I'd be tempted to forcefully erase them through extermination rather then going through the trouble of rehabilitation which is what some of mankind needs. I think you are missing the point completely Valdez, almost every problem the world faces today is because of the monetary system, it is responsible for probably %99 of bad human behaviour, teaching people at school to fk each other over to get as much money as possible is the real problem here, how can we expect people to behave rationally with an education as corrupt as this. I guess my real point is that the solution is alternate economics combined with thoughtful social design, politicians have no idea about social design for they all come from financial/law backgrounds and are corrupted by money. Originally by:** rValdez5987 At the end of the day, as I already said, our best bet is to just let democracy do its thing, as there is no one capable of responsibly leading an authoritarian style of government. Democracy is a lie and an illusion at best, if you have 5 political parties infront of you that all support and enforce a monetary system then what choice do you really have (which is the current situation all round the world)? The answer is "NO" choice at all.
JordanParey Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.02.22 12:36:00 - [98] .... /cue start of real-world version of 1984
TU144 TEPPOPNCT'CMEPTHNK Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.02.22 15:59:00 - [99] I agree that the UK should bring back ID cards, i think it was a big mistake to dump them in the 50's, unlike all of europe. Along with compulsorary address registration of all persons at every address. (this would ensure that anyone of very dubious character will not evade the long arm of the law, for long), yes i know people will still try to dissapear, it just means that they will get caught eventually, with harsher penalties). it would also increase the revenue to the government, as everyone will be personally accountable and very traceable (you cannot evade or outrun the Taxman, not even in the UK)which will put a smile on the head of the treasury's face. If they brought in the same system we (the UK) inposed on the german state after WW2, it would also increase beauracracy a lot, (and jobs!!!) which is good (sort of) the UK. The germans have a good phrase "Ordnung Muss Sein" (there must be order) well they have first hand experience of disorder and the damage it caused all of europe in the 19th/20th centurys. If managed correctly it is not big brother but a means of ensuring that rouge persons in the country will not have free range to run about causing choas or doing illegal things with no repercussions to themselves. (break the law, get spotted!, your going to Gaol) (for those not british, Gaol being british spelling of Jail(american spelling)) CCP made little baby jesus cry by nerfing ghost training
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.02.22 16:57:00 - [100] Originally by: TU144 TEPPOPNCT'CMEPTHNK I agree that the UK should bring back ID cards, i think it was a big mistake to dump them in the 50's, unlike all of europe. Along with compulsorary address registration of all persons at every address. (this would ensure that anyone of very dubious character will not evade the long arm of the law, for long), yes i know people will still try to dissapear, it just means that they will get caught eventually, with harsher penalties). it would also increase the revenue to the government, as everyone will be personally accountable and very traceable (you cannot evade or outrun the Taxman, not even in the UK)which will put a smile on the head of the treasury's face. If they brought in the same system we (the UK) inposed on the german state after WW2, it would also increase beauracracy a lot, (and jobs!!!) which is good (sort of) the UK. The germans have a good phrase "Ordnung Muss Sein" (there must be order) well they have first hand experience of disorder and the damage it caused all of europe in the 19th/20th centurys. If managed correctly it is not big brother but a means of ensuring that rouge persons in the country will not have free range to run about causing choas or doing illegal things with no repercussions to themselves. (break the law, get spotted!, your going to Gaol) (for those not british, Gaol being british spelling of Jail(american spelling)) So many things wrong with this post that I hardly know where to start...
TU144 TEPPOPNCT'CMEPTHNK Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.02.22 17:06:00 - [101] try starting with "i" and end with ")"
Jago Kain Amarr Pan Galactic Traders	Posted - 2009.02.22 18:02:00 - [102] Originally by: TU144 TEPPOPNCT'CMEPTHNK .....If managed correctly.... This is the crux of the matter. Given UK government's track record of abusing existing powers, regardless of which party is in, and inventing new ones do we really need to make it easier for them? ___________________________________________________ The game will never be over, because we're keeping the meme alive.
Glarion Garnier Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2009.02.22 18:48:00 - [103] Edited by: Glarion Garnier on 22/02/2009 18:48:30 Originally by: Evthron Macyntire 1. It's common sense to have backups of important information, the chip would be the fastest way possible to retrieve information, if the chip is broken then information would need to be gotten the traditional way. 2. The mythbusters tested this. It's safe, 100%. 3. True. 4. The implant the chip on your body in a spot where it will never move. Freak accidents might happen, but it's so unlikely that it's not even considered. 5. They put chips into dogs with a needle, they would do the same with a person. 6. I assume it would be a more sophisticated barcode. You can scan a barcode at any store, but the product information will only show if the store has it. Same idea as paper money, presses are pretty much impossible to come by, which is why only the government has them. 7. Identity theft? It happens now, it will happen later. It's not the end of the world. 8. The chip can be implanted when you get your SIN number, the number will be unique to you. The chip will be unique to you. 9. You have to be wuthin a few inches to scan dog chips, it wouldn't be hard to put a pin number on the tag that the person would only know. It's a big black hole of improbabilities you mean. word after word of irrational reasoning and pure propaganda i would say. Myth busters is a laugh as is popular mechanics. Them proving testing anything means that you want us (regular folks) believing what the backround entities are saying (we know who owns myth busters and popular mechanics thanks). No rational person should want total control over their body handed to a goverment entity. Id chips are the wet dream of bankers (id chips + digital money) can you say digital prison. Where all of your moves are monitored and all transactions categorized. The robot ryskin is trying to say that it would need huge database. The databse is peanuts (and it not by any means huge on todays tehcnology terms). Once they chip you they are in control. consider a society where they can shut you out off .. if you say wrong things. All actions and purchase would require the chip. And some goverment entity can shut down your ship. How are you suppose to interact in a socity that is based around chips then. Chips are total control. _________________________________ -be vary of the men behind the curtain-
Vladimir Ilych Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2009.02.22 18:56:00 - [104] Against. They have proved time and time again they cannot be trusted with it. No DB is secure and humans will always introduce errors.
Nuala Reece Caldari Starlancers SYSTEM SHOCK INITIATIVE	Posted - 2009.02.22 20:08:00 - [105] Originally by: Malcanis So many things wrong with this post that I hardly know where to start... I'll give it a try: Originally by: TU144 TEPPOPNCT'CMEPTHNK I agree that the UK should bring back ID cards, i think it was a big mistake to dump them in the 50's, unlike all of europe. All of Europe did not keep ID cards. Talking about the UK specifically, in 1950 the High Court ruled that ID cards "tended to turn law-abiding subjects into law-breakers" and further called them 'an annoyance to the public'. In 1952 Winston Churchill, who introduced the cards during the war, abolished them as part of the recognition that democratic government is about service to the people rather than dominance over them. And apart from all that, the scope of the ID Register proposed for the UK far outstrips the scale of any remaining ID Card scheme throughout Europe, handing over far greater control to the Government. Originally by: TU144 TEPPOPNCT'CMEPTHNK Along with compulsorary address registration of all persons at every address. (this would ensure that anyone of very dubious character will not evade the long arm of the law, for long), yes i know people will still try to dissapear, it just means that they will get caught eventually, with harsher penalties). Compulsory registration of addresses will mean that people of 'dubious character' need only register their address and then live somewhere else. In doing so the long arm of the law will more easily overlook them as (supposed) law abiding citizens while wasting it's time hunting down (supposed) law-breakers who fail to register or who don't have an address to register. Originally by: TU144 TEPPOPNCT'CMEPTHNK it would also increase the revenue to the government, as everyone will be personally accountable and very traceable (you cannot evade or outrun the Taxman, not even in the UK)which will put a smile on the head of the treasury's face. Given that the Government has already stated they plan to sell portions of people's data to private companies for profit I have no doubt that this noble reason for massive invasion of personal privacy, misuse of state power and breach of confidentiality is one of the foremost reasons for the ID Register. Originally by: TU144 TEPPOPNCT'CMEPTHNK If they brought in the same system we (the UK) inposed on the german state after WW2, it would also increase beauracracy a lot, (and jobs!!!) which is good (sort of) the UK. Max Weber argued otherwise in his 'Pessimism on Democracy' by suggesting that such beaurocracies quickly grow to the point where ever more beaurocracy is needed to support the existing beaucratic system rather than to support the initial aim of the system. The system becomes bogged down in an increasingly turgid flow of red tape and then ceases to perform its original function at the expense of sustaining it's beaurocratic function. Originally by: TU144 TEPPOPNCT'CMEPTHNK The germans have a good phrase "Ordnung Muss Sein" (there must be order) well they have first hand experience of disorder and the damage it caused all of europe in the 19th/20th centurys. Blatant trolling. Bad boy! Originally by: TU144 TEPPOPNCT'CMEPTHNK If managed correctly it is not big brother but a means of ensuring that rouge persons in the country will not have free range to run about causing choas or doing illegal things with no repercussions to themselves. 'If' is not a powerful or convincing argument I'm afraid. And besides - we haven't had ID cards in the UK since 1952 and yet there have still been laws ensuring that 'rogue persons' do not have free range to run about causing chaos or doing illegal things with no repercussions. And those laws will still be there if we continue to not have an ID register.
7shining7one7	Posted - 2009.02.22 21:54:00 - [106] don't listen to me, listen to him. 36 minutes that's going to change your life.
Sobach Gallente Fourth Circle	Posted - 2009.02.22 22:31:00 - [107] Originally by: rValdez5987 I forget to mention that I am an authoritarian and I do not support democracy. That explains a lot :P Originally by: rValdez5987 Mankind is not intelligent enough to carry them out. It can't work because there are far too many people who want freedom just for the sake of having it, without even knowing what to do with it. Too many people want just for the sake of wanting. They focus on the here and now rather then the future or what comes next. They cling to material goods which in the long run have no value. People don't think. Man is too primitive. Maybe in a few hundred years this will be different although I doubt it. I see your point, but like everything else, it ultimately it boils down to you imposing your value system over everyone else. While you do not value freedom, there are others who can't live without it; For others the here and now matters more than what may or may not come in the future, while you're the opposite; Material goods may not matter to you, yet to many others, they do, for a myriad of different reasons. What is right and wrong? That depends entirely on each person's point of view. People DO think, they just may not think like you do. To believe that your way of thinking is superior is arrogant and ultimately pointless. In the end, one can say that in the grand scheme of things, nothing on this earth, which doesn't even amount to a speck of dust in the universe, really matters. Yet, seemingly small things like the first sight of a newborn baby may be priceless to the new parents. Everything in the world has no meaning until someone decides that it matters to them. In short, each person have to decide what the meaning of life is for themselves, it's not something that should be dictated to others(though we all know it's 42). The day when man has become advanced enough to create a government like you envisioned, humanity would not need a government at all.
Evthron Macyntire	Posted - 2009.02.22 23:14:00 - [108] Originally by: Glarion Garnier Edited by: Glarion Garnier on 22/02/2009 18:48:30 Originally by: Evthron Macyntire stuff word after word of irrational reasoning and pure propaganda i would say. Myth busters is a laugh as is popular mechanics. Them proving testing anything means that you want us (regular folks) believing what the backround entities are saying (we know who owns myth busters and popular mechanics thanks). No rational person should want total control over their body handed to a goverment entity. Id chips are the wet dream of bankers (id chips + digital money) can you say digital prison. Where all of your moves are monitored and all transactions categorized. The robot ryskin is trying to say that it would need huge database. The databse is peanuts (and it not by any means huge on todays tehcnology terms). Once they chip you they are in control. consider a society where they can shut you out off .. if you say wrong things. All actions and purchase would require the chip. And some goverment entity can shut down your ship. How are you suppose to interact in a socity that is based around chips then. Chips are total control. Mythbusters proved the concept that a chip in your body won't be ripped out by an MRI, not enough metal in it. Otherwise everyone would die in a MRI because we have iron in our blood. We are pretty much screwed anyway, politicians do what is best to get more votes, wagging a security blanket in front of people is a great way to secure more sheep for the pasture. ------------------------------ Sigs like this.
Dantes Revenge Caldari	Posted - 2009.02.23 04:20:00 - [109] Edited by: Dantes Revenge on 23/02/2009 04:20:05 Originally by: annoing Surely you mean Shanzem the well known UK hater? I'd just like to point out that I'm not an alt of Shanzem although I do agree with his views that this country is going downhill fast. It's not even a shadow of what it was 30 years ago but that's a different topic anyway. Originally by: rubico1337 what scares the crap out of me is the number of posters here who not only wouldnt mind seeing ID cards, but are in favor of having some sort of biometric implant that is monitored by the government ARE YOU **ING SERIOUS? Wasn't this once a scheme thought up by the well known group called the Illuminati? Particularly well known for supporting ideas that can ultimately be used for mind control and such? A bio implant would no doubt be inobtrusive at first but slowly development would include means to control people. Go where you're not supposed to or do what you've been told not to and it punishes you. Anyone seen Clockwork Orange? -- Originally by:** CCP Whisper No it is not an official statement. Not everything surrounded by blue bars is an official statement which can be quoted as fact until the end of time. Deal with it.
F'elch	Posted - 2009.02.25 08:55:00 - [110] More related developments: Linkage They're not even bothering to hide it any more.
TraininVain	Posted - 2009.02.25 10:19:00 - [111] Quote: In a new research paper, he sets out plans for the state to mine data held by public and private bodies, such as emails, phone records and travel information. Told you. Quote: This includes information held in national records covered by data protection legislation, or by global companies where its availability is subject to international agreements. Just thinking of excuses. The thing is, from his side of the table I'm sure they'd ALWAYS need MORE surveillance. He's trying to catch an enemy who's goal is to blend in with everyone else like fish blend in with water. Short of being able to read people's minds or of watching everyone 24 hours a day he is never going to have sufficient information to catch every terrorist.
Brunnis Jetrel Gallente Shining Horses	Posted - 2009.02.25 11:45:00 - [112] as long as the company I work for gets the contract for it i don't care as that contract wouldn't be off-shorable, plus i'd get to look into all your dirty little secrets and wipe mine
Ratchman	Posted - 2009.02.25 11:59:00 - [113] I would say that if you could guarantee database security, then this wouldn't be an issue. But it can't. Simply put, something like this will break down time and again, miscarriages of justice will occur and criminals will circumvent the system. Look at how frequently supposedly confidential information is left on unattended laptops and documents. Look at how frequently governmental systems are hacked. And finally, and by far the biggest threat, look how badly information is currently updated on existing systems. I have lost touch with the amount of times there has been a slight discrepancy on my records. It may be something slight, but can have tragic consequences, like dominos toppling towards some inexorable fate. Terry Gilliam's film Brazil illustrates this kind of problem so well, and with a good sense of black humour. How often have you received mail with your name spelled incorrectly? And then the government will sell off your personal information to business anyway, much like they already do with the credit check database (generally used by banks to check your credit-worthiness, but extra data is routinely sold to any business that requires it for market research). They can do this because the Data Protection Act does not cover governmental agencies, a nice little loophole they slipped into the legal document. The ideal may be sound, but it always forgets to take into account human nature, and we are prone to error and corruption.
Bullageddon Caldari	Posted - 2009.02.25 12:24:00 - [114] IF the US ID replaced state driver licenses, social security cards, and passports then I would be all for it. IF it does not, then I'm against it. Redundancy sucks and is nothing more than revenue generators for the government. Personally, I would like this ID card to replace all those, and to link your ID card with your employment history via the SSA. No more filling out applications and sending in resumes, just swipe your ID and wait for an interview call. (Of course, I'm only saying this because I suck at resumes) === This Space For Lease or Sale.
Kaeten Hybrid Syndicate	Posted - 2009.02.25 12:46:00 - [115] One thing I don't understand with ppl that are against the big brother approach. Let's say the goverment ARE watching you the entire time liek a criminal. What diffrence does it make? Unless ofc you do things that are illegal... However.. I am against it in other ways. For example, being able to USE my information. Without going too deep into conspiracy theoires etc. Goverment could do things their way.. setting up people. Not to mention if a crime is commitited they might put the wrong person behind bars... I am also FOR when it comes to a database of blood type etc. Murderers would be caught. epedemic's and dieses controlled more efficently. But as said before, someone WILL probably abuse it for their own good... There will probably be no way in everresolving this issue, pity really.
jason hill Caldari Clan Shadow Wolf Sylph Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.25 12:50:00 - [116] Originally by: Brunnis Jetrel as long as the company I work for gets the contract for it i don't care as that contract wouldn't be off-shorable, plus i'd get to look into all your dirty little secrets and wipe mine I bet you work for EDS !.... if you do get it we are all definetly doomed....sheesh the amount of gov contracts that they have ballsed up would make the publics eyes pop out destroy everything you touch
Ratchman	Posted - 2009.02.25 13:58:00 - [117] Originally by: Kaeten One thing I don't understand with ppl that are against the big brother approach. Let's say the goverment ARE watching you the entire time liek a criminal. What diffrence does it make? Unless ofc you do things that are illegal... However.. I am against it in other ways. For example, being able to USE my information. Without going too deep into conspiracy theoires etc. Goverment could do things their way.. setting up people. Not to mention if a crime is commitited they might put the wrong person behind bars... I am also FOR when it comes to a database of blood type etc. Murderers would be caught. epedemic's and dieses controlled more efficently. But as said before, someone WILL probably abuse it for their own good... There will probably be no way in everresolving this issue, pity really. There's a simple enough reason as to why people don't like being watched, and that is because everyone does something illegal at some point in their life. But before you disagree, you have to remember that legislation and justice do not always go hand in hand, and are often set against each other. Asking yourself 'is it legal' is different from saying 'is it ethical'. In Britain, we live in a fairly liberal society, where you are more likely to be treated equitably. That said, we have still got a long way to go before this is truly the case. There are still divides everywhere in our society, and where there are divides, there are opposing sides, and when one of these oppoing sides obtains authority, then there is an abuse of it. Thus legality and ethics can often come into conflict, and a society that places too much faith in law can find itself straying a long way from morality. The old argument that it helps the police catch criminals is a spurious one. The police can catch criminals at the moment. They don't lack the ability, they lack the resources and manpower. You watch how quickly some cases get solved, especially ones in the public eye, compared to comparable ones that are not. This is because attention focuses their meagre resources into one area, at the detriment to others. This has always been the case, and has been irrespective of any new technology introduced. Don't get me wrong, I'm very pro technology, and can see the benefit in databases and their ilk. The problem comes in that people start to believe that they are infallible. They are a tool, and nothing more. They are designed by people, and will err like people. We have to remember this and use it in conjunction with our own reasoning power and common sense. You're right about it never being resolved though, as humanity is also varied, and we will never agree. And on the day that we all do agree, then our lives will become that bit duller.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.02.25 14:09:00 - [118] I'm all for the ID card and the database behind it as long as the government can 100% promise that (1) They won't leave a copy of the entire database on the 07:49 to Paddington (2) No-one who would ever possibly abuse it will ever be allowed access to it (3) It won't be used to enforce the current Home Offiice Minister's idea of morality re: smoking, drinking, sex, etc (4) They won't sell the information to private companies (5) It won't cost an astounding amount of money Since this government has an unbelievably bad record on data security (they have so far lost copies of Tax, Health, Child Support, Education and Social Security records in the last 4 years), they specifically want it to help them enforce their ideas of Right Living, they've already admitted that they intend to sell the information, and the cost has already been estimated at ú18B and increases daily, the fact that I don't trust a bunch of interfering civil servants with my data is pretty much moot. We can't afford it, we don't want it and it won't work as advertised. 0/10 FAIL (see me after class).
cpu939 Gallente OffBeat Creations	Posted - 2009.02.25 19:18:00 - [119] cons:- this is taken from the uk home office web site ID cards will provide an easy and secure way for legal UK residents to prove who they are. ID cards are the cornerstone of our national identity scheme, which calls for an easy to use and extremely secure system of personal identification for UK residents. Each ID card will be unique, and will combine the cardholderÆs biometric data with their checked and confirmed identity details - a æbiographical footprintÆ. These identity details and the biometrics will be stored on the national identity register. Basic identity information will also be held in a chip on the ID card itself. The cards will be linked to their owners by unique biometric information (for example, fingerprints). This is needed to ensure that your card is really yours, and to protect you from identity theft. as stated in this messege this will prove who you are, question is why do i need to prove anything is my word not good enough. what is to stop the goverment changing the law to where you must prove you did not do a crime. Guilty till proven Innocent. now i ask you all this shall we adopt this Guilty till proven Innocent and lock away the inocent even more than they do now, take away someone freedom so that others may think they have it. i'll also point out that new labour at one point did not what these cards video at about 50 seconds you'll hear the speech one other thing is if it becomes law that you must have this card or your braking the law why should i pay for it. my taxes go towards making sure the law is upheld it can pay for the card. one other thing to think about the police will be able to get your finger prints from the data base with the id cards you will not have to give the police your finger prints agian if your arested. now you might be thinking so what thats not bad, heres the thing crimials will place people into the system to get access no system is 100% safe all it will take is for someone to put a criminal finger prints on your file, crime scene has those finger prints your guilty no judges no jury just the hang man. remember we already lost the police service its now a police force. for you guys think it just a name change think again. so in easy terms i'm agenst it. cpu939 or am i you only have my word for that lol 01101111 01100110 01100110 01100010 01100101 01100001 01110100 00100000 01100011 01110010 01100101 01100001 01110100 01101001 01101111 01101110
Xen Gin Universal Mining Inc. Forged Dominion	Posted - 2009.02.25 22:18:00 - [120] Originally by: cpu939 remember we already lost the police service its now a police force. for you guys think it just a name change think again. Actually they changed it from Police Force to Police Service because the word Force was not P.C. and was too aggressive.
Jago Kain Amarr Pan Galactic Traders	Posted - 2009.02.26 00:41:00 - [121] Originally by: cpu939 what is to stop the goverment changing the law to where you must prove you did not do a crime. Guilty till proven Innocent. Already done old chap. s172 (Road Traffic Act) Notice of Intended Prosecution forms, the ones you get sent if you get GATSO'd, require you to furnish the details of the driver at the time of the alleged offence. Failure to do this will result in a criminal prosecution, despite s172 being technically illegal under article 6 of the ECHR, the bit that is supposed to be about our right to a fair trial. Check this site for more interesting information of traffic law. Seriously, it's well worth a look. ___________________________________________________ The game will never be over, because we're keeping the meme alive.
cpu939 Gallente OffBeat Creations	Posted - 2009.02.26 01:31:00 - [122] Originally by: Xen Gin Originally by: cpu939 remember we already lost the police service its now a police force. for you guys think it just a name change think again. Actually they changed it from Police Force to Police Service because the word Force was not P.C. and was too aggressive. Linkage 1 Linkage 2 Linkage 3 Linkage 4 Linkage 5 i think you'll find all the links above and they are all police site refer to themselfs or advertise as a police force, it was police service they changed to be police force to sound aggressive to ciminals. they might be changing it back to service, but i will never turst them fully, they get of with to much. 01101111 01100110 01100110 01100010 01100101 01100001 01110100 00100000 01100011 01110010 01100101 01100001 01110100 01101001 01101111 01101110
Xen Gin Universal Mining Inc. Forged Dominion	Posted - 2009.02.26 14:08:00 - [123] Originally by: cpu939 Originally by: Xen Gin Originally by: cpu939 remember we already lost the police service its now a police force. for you guys think it just a name change think again. Actually they changed it from Police Force to Police Service because the word Force was not P.C. and was too aggressive. Linkage 1 Linkage 2 Linkage 3 Linkage 4 Linkage 5 i think you'll find all the links above and they are all police site refer to themselfs or advertise as a police force, it was police service they changed to be police force to sound aggressive to ciminals. they might be changing it back to service, but i will never turst them fully, they get of with to much. But I think you'll find that the only one that matters is Linkage of Doom
cpu939 Gallente OffBeat Creations	Posted - 2009.02.26 14:58:00 - [124] Originally by: Xen Gin Originally by: cpu939 Originally by: Xen Gin Originally by: cpu939 remember we already lost the police service its now a police force. for you guys think it just a name change think again. Actually they changed it from Police Force to Police Service because the word Force was not P.C. and was too aggressive. Linkage 1 Linkage 2 Linkage 3 Linkage 4 Linkage 5 i think you'll find all the links above and they are all police site refer to themselfs or advertise as a police force, it was police service they changed to be police force to sound aggressive to ciminals. they might be changing it back to service, but i will never turst them fully, they get of with to much. But I think you'll find that the only one that matters is Linkage of Doom you know what your right that is the only one that matters so here is the guild to joining the force in there words Linkage of total doom for those who don't have a pdf reader Whether you are rejoining or transferring to the Met, you must have completed your probationary period with a police force based in the United Kingdom. so i'm still not for id cards 01101111 01100110 01100110 01100010 01100101 01100001 01110100 00100000 01100011 01110010 01100101 01100001 01110100 01101001 01101111 01101110
Xen Gin Universal Mining Inc. Forged Dominion	Posted - 2009.02.26 15:56:00 - [125] I think we're both right, overall it's a service made up of forces.
Johnny Malloy Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.02.28 15:57:00 - [126] i think they are a bad idea to be honest if they are compulsory. if you want to carry something on you to identify you in case of an accident or need to sign for something then fine. i think the whole "carry an ID card which will have all your personal/biometric data on it or your going to prison" approach puts us (the UK) on a slippery slope to a police state. "if you've got nothing to hide you've got nothing to fear" the big problem i have with this simplistic, apathetic statement is that you never know what kind of government is round the corner. any genocidal fruitcake or paranoid nutjob dictator would instantly be able to murder/imprison millions of his fellow countrymen/women they class as "enemies of the state" under their regime. a possible future scenario? "the boss thinks bald people are inferior so they're passing a law today to get rid of all bald people!" "ok sarge! i'll round up them baldies pronto, we got the photos and the names & addresses,leave it with me. we'll have them all shot and we'll be back in time for evening donuts at the station." and a sad reminder In the rawanda massacre of 1994 over a million people lost their lives in a 100 DAYS! and you know what helped the killers? ID cards. the previous colonial rulers saw in their infinate wisdom to seperate the country by tribal ethnicity and favoured one over the other (divide and rule) creating a split which would eventually lead to genocide. being stopped at a road block by the machete wielding militas and having a tutsi ID card was a death sentence. we had our own fascist dictator here in the UK. it was oliver cromwell and his puritans.yes it was 350 yrs ago when he was busy executing and burning people for heresy and their religous convictions but it goes to show it it does happen on our own doorstep. If you were to take into the account the amount of data and surveillance stuff the UK government already holds, that is when they are not busy losing it (tax credits anyone?) and add compulsory ID cards into the mix then it is very very easy to fall foul of the law if they so desire. has increased CCTV completely eradicated crime? No. will all the new terror laws stop someone doing something? No. . "welcome to democracy" did you know that it is now illegal to take a photograph of a policeman in the UK? you could be accused of "aiding or plotting terrorism" or whatever. you could potentially go to prison for 10 years. if you dont believe me, google it, it was a big news story here a couple of weeks ago. innocent tourists beware. "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny.ö thomas jefferson
Evthron Macyntire	Posted - 2009.03.01 02:24:00 - [127] Originally by: Johnny Malloy i think they are a bad idea to be honest if they are compulsory. if you want to carry something on you to identify you in case of an accident or need to sign for something then fine. i think the whole "carry an ID card which will have all your personal/biometric data on it or your going to prison" approach puts us (the UK) on a slippery slope to a police state. "if you've got nothing to hide you've got nothing to fear" the big problem i have with this simplistic, apathetic statement is that you never know what kind of government is round the corner. any genocidal fruitcake or paranoid nutjob dictator would instantly be able to murder/imprison millions of his fellow countrymen/women they class as "enemies of the state" under their regime. a possible future scenario? "the boss thinks bald people are inferior so they're passing a law today to get rid of all bald people!" "ok sarge! i'll round up them baldies pronto, we got the photos and the names & addresses,leave it with me. we'll have them all shot and we'll be back in time for evening donuts at the station." and a sad reminder In the rawanda massacre of 1994 over a million people lost their lives in a 100 DAYS! and you know what helped the killers? ID cards. the previous colonial rulers saw in their infinate wisdom to seperate the country by tribal ethnicity and favoured one over the other (divide and rule) creating a split which would eventually lead to genocide. being stopped at a road block by the machete wielding militas and having a tutsi ID card was a death sentence. we had our own fascist dictator here in the UK. it was oliver cromwell and his puritans.yes it was 350 yrs ago when he was busy executing and burning people for heresy and their religous convictions but it goes to show it it does happen on our own doorstep. If you were to take into the account the amount of data and surveillance stuff the UK government already holds, that is when they are not busy losing it (tax credits anyone?) and add compulsory ID cards into the mix then it is very very easy to fall foul of the law if they so desire. has increased CCTV completely eradicated crime? No. will all the new terror laws stop someone doing something? No. . "welcome to democracy" "When governments fear the people there is liberty. When the people fear the government there is tyranny.ö thomas jefferson First of all, are you high? Creating a national I.D system is a national I.D system, not a dictatorship. Secondly, Most of Africa has had problems every since Europe left. Of course it is easy to blame white people, but the problem lies with the people in Africa, they can't/don't want to work together, and it is just one bloody struggle for power after another. Look at Zimbabwe, after Mugabe ejected all the white farmers the country slowly turned from the bread basket of Africa to a festering cesspool. It would be pretty hard for a current western democracy to turn into a dictatorship, I don't ever see it happening. Originally by: Johnny Malloy did you know that it is now illegal to take a photograph of a policeman in the UK? you could be accused of "aiding or plotting terrorism" or whatever. you could potentially go to prison for 10 years. if you dont believe me, google it, it was a big news story here a couple of weeks ago. innocent tourists beware. So because you can't take a picture of the police it is some terrible crime against freedom? I don't see how, it wouldn't be hard to attack a target under the guise of a tourist taking pictures. It's not like a American naval ship was attacked because they didn't want to shoot on a "possible" ******ed civilian. And it's not like Japanese citizens took photos of all the warships in Pearl Harbour so they could stage a massive attack to cripple the US pacific fleet. No neither of those ever happened, facist governments taking away our rights, terrorist attacks never, ever happen. ------------------------------ Sigs like this.
Evthron Macyntire	Posted - 2009.03.01 02:28:00 - [128] I ran out of space for text, Japan actually phoned people in Hawaii to ask them questions about warship positioning. CRAZY EH? ------------------------------ Sigs like this.
Nebulous Minmatar Thukker Zoku	Posted - 2009.03.01 09:29:00 - [129] Originally by: Evthron Macyntire It would be pretty hard for a current western democracy to turn into a dictatorship, I don't ever see it happening. As I have said before on countless occasions "Democracy" is a lie and an illusion at best, every single world government be it Communist, Democratic, Socialist, Republican or Facist, controls it's population with "Monetarism". Money is a modern form of slavery, your so called "freedom" comes at a cost, you are only as free as the amount of "money" you have. Answer me two questions. 1) Name me one government in this world that does not have a monetary system? 2) Tell me the last time you were the given the option to vote for a non monetary economy? I think you will find the answer to both those questions will be a negative one, so how in this ****ty world can we have a democracy? People need to wake up and stop believing their government is any different to any other government in the world, we are all enslaved by the monetary systems and these I.D. cards only add to that slavery. ----------------------------------------------
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.03.01 09:33:00 - [130] Originally by: Evthron Macyntire So because you can't take a picture of the police it is some terrible crime against freedom? Yes, now you're getting it. That's exactly what it is. Policemen are human beings. Policemen are given significant authority. It is not completely unknown, is it, for that authority to be abused? It is now a CRIME to collect the most basic evidence of that abuse. *Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?*
ToxicAvenger IV Caldari Perkone	Posted - 2009.03.01 11:45:00 - [131] Totally against. Big Brother is following your every move now. ------ I see... Current week number: Easy Week
Polkageist Minmatar Grave Diggers DEFI4NT	Posted - 2009.03.01 12:40:00 - [132] Originally by: ToxicAvenger IV Totally against. Big Brother is following your every move now. people like to know more about the origin of Big Brother i can higly recommend the epic "1984" by George Orwell. A must read!
Nuala Reece Caldari Starlancers SYSTEM SHOCK INITIATIVE	Posted - 2009.03.01 12:45:00 - [133] As ever a level head and a good understanding of the context is waht's needed to make a good judgement of the situation. It is not specifically illegal to take a photograph of a policeman in the UK. Johnny Malloy is refering to the newly introduced Counter-Terrorism Act 2008 which has made it an offence to elicit or attempt to elicit information about an individual who is or has been a member of Her MajestyÆs forces, a member of any of the intelligence services or a constable, "which is of a kind likely to be useful to a person committing or preparing an act of terrorism, or publishes or communicates any such information". Linkage This clearly relates to the potential threat that Evthron is talking about and obviously could be seen as reasonable as a result. This is occurring, however, within the context of a Police Service (and government) which has been increasingly sensitive to people seen taking photographs. There have been numerous and growing reports in the last couple of years of innocent citizens being stopped and questioned by Police for taking photos - and in some cases facing demands to hand over their film, memory card or camera - on the assumption that they have a right to do this (which they didn't). This suggests a desire on the part of the Police to assume suspicion from the mere act of having a camera in public and this then leads to the real concern that the new powers granted to the Police under the Counter-Terrorism Act could be misused as a general-purpose right to stop and search without the need to show grounds for reasonable suspicion. This, as Malcanis and Johnny suggest, would be an unsupportable attack on freedom completely out of perspective to the level of potential threat.
Polkageist Minmatar Grave Diggers DEFI4NT	Posted - 2009.03.01 12:50:00 - [134] anti-terror law is against the people of UK. false flag operations are not done by the people, but by the junta's in government and intelligence services.
Johnny Malloy Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.03.01 15:19:00 - [135] Quote: First of all, are you high? Creating a national I.D system is a national I.D system, not a dictatorship nope i'm not high at all my friend. the point is that once you have an I.D system like the one proposed then it makes it easier for whichever government is in power to abuse their positon if they so wish, as they will be able to clamp down on any dissenters in a heartbeat and it its from that you would most likely end up with your dictatorship. starting with with the 1994 criminal justice act (which i have fallen foul of on numerous occasions) the right to protest, the right to assemble and voice your opinions here in the UK is being gradually eroded. the above act and the more recent anti-terror laws are so vague in their wording that the police can pretty much interpret it how they like and it would still be the law. add to that a compulsory ID card system and your in real trouble. as for a modern western democracy not turning into a dictatorship, yes i think it is feasible given time and the right political climate (excuse the pun) after all, lets not forget a certain german dictator came to power when there was a worlwide economic depression and people were desperate. that was not that long ago in terms of history. all it takes is some savvy propoganda and a scapegoat to rally the masses behind your party. its my belief that if these ID cards do go through then everyone in the UK will, over time, have everything to hide and everything to fear.

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