EVE Search - I don't see what's so OP about Falcons

All Channels

Ships and Modules

I don't see what's so OP about Falcons

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 :: one page
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Cohkka Celestial Apocalypse	Posted - 2009.02.21 22:47:00 - [31] Originally by: echohead Also remember that falcons are pretty useless in alot of lowsec because they get shredded by gate guns. Tell that the piewats that got their alts in Falcons having every gate bookmarked with multiple warp ins all outside sentry range. An Ishkur? lawl... Actually the Falcon is the only Recon that can operate in lowsec in that fashion, you know that the attributes paperthin, low dmg apply to all recons... and range is a more effective tank than not so high speed? Oh and for starters, stop contradicting yourself in the same post... To add something constructive to the post: I kinda agree with welshy on that topic. Altho I still think it's op in small gangs you can't just nerf it for good because it'll get close to useless in anything else. Don't think ECM can be fixed without it being completly redone. There are very nice ideas, I hope CCP picks one up. Don't speak english, just F5, F5, F5...
Mortuus Minmatar Fat J Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.02.21 22:57:00 - [32] Not that I think this thread is necessary (we already know falcons are IMBA) but how is it that you should have to specifically fit to counter a ship by using a Fleet Sniper setup BS with at least 2-3 ECCMs to take care of a single Falcon? Basically, the problem with the Falcon is not its jamming strength, the problem is, that unlike every other form of EW, they can engage from 160+km and be successful. I think that if Falcons were forced into the 30-60km range most of the problem would be solved.
daisy dook	Posted - 2009.02.21 22:59:00 - [33] Originally by: Mortuus Not that I think this thread is necessary (we already know falcons are IMBA) but how is it that you should have to specifically fit to counter a ship by using a Fleet Sniper setup BS with at least 2-3 ECCMs to take care of a single Falcon? Basically, the problem with the Falcon is not its jamming strength, the problem is, that unlike every other form of EW, they can engage from 160+km and be successful. I think that if Falcons were forced into the 30-60km range most of the problem would be solved. By making the Falcon a non-viable ship, one missed jame and poof. Come on lets have a serious suggestion?
Mortuus Minmatar Fat J Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.02.21 23:02:00 - [34] Edited by: Mortuus on 21/02/2009 23:03:09 How is that different to any other ship? Vaga gets webbed or scrambled and it can go poof, and its not like it warps cloaked either. A BS gets tracking disrupted vs a cruiser or frigate and its dead. Everything has a counter other than itself. Falcons use ECM as their means of a tank. Your tank fails on another ship you go poof, no difference. Other option is to make ECCM so effective that fitting generally counters a Falcons jamming.
daisy dook	Posted - 2009.02.21 23:04:00 - [35] Edited by: daisy dook on 21/02/2009 23:05:59 Originally by: Mortuus How is that different to any other ship? Vaga gets webbed or scrambled and it can go poof, and its not like it warps cloaked either. A BS gets tracking disrupted vs a cruiser or frigate and its dead. Everything has a counter other than itself. Falcons use ECM as their means of a tank. Your tank fails on another ship you go poof, no difference. It's different because ECM is a chance based mechanic, make ECM 100% effective and I might consider agreeing with you. I believe that it has been proven how effective ECCM is at countering jamming. The trouble is people don't want to fit it; I see this as proof that the Falcon threat is vastly over spoken in the forums.
Mortuus Minmatar Fat J Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.02.21 23:06:00 - [36] So, sorta like my guns? Where the hit table is chance based? Or the CHANCE that I might not be able to go fast? Which kind of chance are we talking about. PvP is all about chance, and the chance that you run into a viable counter for your ship.
daisy dook	Posted - 2009.02.21 23:07:00 - [37] Originally by: Mortuus So, sorta like my guns? Where the hit table is chance based? Or the CHANCE that I might not be able to go fast? Which kind of chance are we talking about. PvP is all about chance, and the chance that you run into a viable counter for your ship. In your optimal ?
Mortuus Minmatar Fat J Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.02.21 23:08:00 - [38] Yep, I don't control the opponents speeds, so the chance of hit goes down as transversal changes, and any change from my optimal means an additional decrease in hit chance. Not to mention the chance of having an enemy use a tracking disrupter. There is a lot more chance involved in gun combat than there is in ECM use.
daisy dook	Posted - 2009.02.21 23:10:00 - [39] Originally by: Mortuus Yep, I don't control the opponents speeds, so the chance of hit goes down as transversal changes, and any change from my optimal means an additional decrease in hit chance. Not to mention the chance of having an enemy use a tracking disrupter. There is a lot more chance involved in gun combat than there is in ECM use. I never said there wasn't, but traversal is something you can attempt to control and the tracking disruptor is just a red herring.
Mortuus Minmatar Fat J Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.02.21 23:16:00 - [40] You can attempt to increase your chance of a jam by targeting the smaller ships. This can just go around and around. Fact is, ECM needs a VIABLE counter while still allowing the ship to do something other than counter just ECM. Fitting 3 ECCMs is not the answer, you should really only need 1-2 depending on starting ship strength. Maybe make it chance based, % chance to ignore ECM when on. We'll see how Falcons like it when they can't use any of their abilities in combat similar to when someone is perma jammed. I'm betting there would be a lot of whining that "they can't do anything" similar to how a pilot feels when they are jammed.
daisy dook	Posted - 2009.02.21 23:24:00 - [41] Originally by: Mortuus You can attempt to increase your chance of a jam by targeting the smaller ships. This can just go around and around. Fact is, ECM needs a VIABLE counter while still allowing the ship to do something other than counter just ECM. Fitting 3 ECCMs is not the answer, you should really only need 1-2 depending on starting ship strength. Maybe make it chance based, % chance to ignore ECM when on. We'll see how Falcons like it when they can't use any of their abilities in combat similar to when someone is perma jammed. I'm betting there would be a lot of whining that "they can't do anything" similar to how a pilot feels when they are jammed. "They can't do anything" is exactly what happens to a Falcon against a well setup gang - face it if ECM doesn't work (see ECCM) then it adds nothing to the fight (except a juicy kill mail). If you are alone fighting a Falcon then you will win because the Falcon will miss jams sooner or later (obv, this won't happen as either of you would just warp off). If you are alone fighting a Falcon and mate then you are at a massive disadvantage anyway going up against two ships.
Cpt Leks	Posted - 2009.02.22 00:14:00 - [42] Ive seen people getting perma jammed by 1 falcon with 3 ECCMs. And talking about chances they are just too close to 100%. And as i said before try fitting ECM on most amarr ships. Seems rather stupid ruining the setup just to have some sort of counter measure against 1 out of tens of ships and still it would be ...umm...1% chance of not getting jammed?
echohead	Posted - 2009.02.22 00:26:00 - [43] Oh and for starters, stop contradicting yourself in the same post.... Where did I do that?
daisy dook	Posted - 2009.02.22 00:28:00 - [44] Originally by: Cpt Leks Ive seen people getting perma jammed by 1 falcon with 3 ECCMs. And talking about chances they are just too close to 100%. And as i said before try fitting ECM on most amarr ships. Seems rather stupid ruining the setup just to have some sort of counter measure against 1 out of tens of ships and still it would be ...umm...1% chance of not getting jammed? And I've had crusiers that I just haven't been able to jam, in a large enough sample all these things will happen (though I'd like you to point me to the killboards that are littlered with multiple ECCMed BS's that have been killed by Falcons). You should fit for what you expect to encounter; if you don't feel that ECCM is a valuable module then you are obviously not encountering enough Falcons.
welsh wizard 0utbreak KrautbreaK	Posted - 2009.02.22 00:55:00 - [45] Originally by: Mortuus Not that I think this thread is necessary (we already know falcons are IMBA) but how is it that you should have to specifically fit to counter a ship by using a Fleet Sniper setup BS with at least 2-3 ECCMs to take care of a single Falcon? Basically, the problem with the Falcon is not its jamming strength, the problem is, that unlike every other form of EW, they can engage from 160+km and be successful. I think that if Falcons were forced into the 30-60km range most of the problem would be solved. Similar range to that of the other recons... Ok then, how do you propose we increase its tank? Also what is your proposal for its second role? Or is your post just like all the other knee jerk responses? I'm not saying your idea isn't viable as a part way compromise but do you honestly think it'd be balanced in its current state with a 60-90km effective range? Actually forget balance, would it even be fair? --------------- RIP Crazy Horse
Knawt Ongrid	Posted - 2009.02.22 00:59:00 - [46] Originally by: Eiri Assulu Originally by: Allahs Warrior Oh wait there isn't, because ECCM modules are absolutely worthless compared to the other things that are fit to counter other EW I fit an anti web device to protect from rapiers. Oh wai... Yeah, um it's called a mwd. And, 60% webs now wow! Still waiting for a web/painter boat buff ccp (and ditto for nos nerfed and damp nerfed boats) to mirror the buffs you gave the ecm boats after the ecm module nerf.
daisy dook	Posted - 2009.02.22 01:21:00 - [47] Originally by: Knawt Ongrid Originally by: Eiri Assulu Originally by: Allahs Warrior Oh wait there isn't, because ECCM modules are absolutely worthless compared to the other things that are fit to counter other EW I fit an anti web device to protect from rapiers. Oh wai... Yeah, um it's called a mwd. And, 60% webs now wow! Still waiting for a web/painter boat buff ccp (and ditto for nos nerfed and damp nerfed boats) to mirror the buffs you gave the ecm boats after the ecm module nerf. How's about CCP introduce a low slot module to buff these systems?
Knawt Ongrid	Posted - 2009.02.22 02:10:00 - [48] Originally by: daisy dook How's about CCP introduce a low slot module to buff these systems? Well, maybe, but better to buff the ship ew bonuses. It is quite funny to see 5% bonuses on painter/damp/tracking disrupter strengths compared to dual 20% bonuses to ecm strength and range. Webs and nos got heavily nerfed. Gallente recons got a little "role" buff from the change with scrams. However, Arazu and Rapier are rather expensive flying coffins even when you compromise to try to tank them (and speed tank not really an option any longer). They can still do ok in smaller engagements but as the numbers go up they die fast flying within 40km to do their job. Would be nice to have a ranged damp/painter/tracking ew option for the large engagements. ECM will just always be an inherently more powerful ew, which is why ccp really got it wrong with the extreme buff they gave ecm boats after the ecm nerf. A damped/painted/tracking disrupted ship can still often kill the tacklers (with drones at the very least) or remote rep a buddy. A jammed ship can't lock anything at all, and since almost every combat action in eve requires a lock, you are left doing nothing. ECM is chance based, so what. Every ship other than a BS or recon with an eccm will be almost reliably jammed, or often the ecm will cycle around again if you miss a jam before the victim does anything effective as he waits in lag or the confusion of a scrolling overview to find and acquire a lock. Damps and Painters are effectively chance based too with the reliance on falloff for range. And tracking disrupters, the same to lesser extent, and oh btw they only work against turret ships If extreme range was taken from the bb ecm boats (exempt the scorpion, which should really be the only true sniper ecm boat) then I would have no argument finding some secondary ew to give them. The strength of the ecm would naturally diminish because some low slots might be needed for tank or speed/agility mods instead of all being filled with amps. If CCP could fix defender missiles then that would be a back-story appropriate secondary ew to give to ecm boats. Also defenders are high slot so they wouldn't compete with ecm for slots. (I say back-story appropriate because amarr cap drain is murder on amarr ships, just as working caldari defender missiles might be murder on caldari missile slingers). And hell give the ecm boats a small 10-20m3 drone bay would be ok by me as well. So, short version, either nerf ecm range quite a bit and give a bonus to "fixed" defender missiles and a small drone bay on the ecm boats. Or, buff the range and effectiveness of the ew types of the other recons to something approaching the current ecm ranges to make them useful in larger fights. Either of these might bring some more balance to the Recons.
Lil Mule	Posted - 2009.02.22 03:17:00 - [49] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 21/02/2009 22:14:34 The ship does nothing else, that means you need to give it something in return if its nerfed drastically. The Falcon could probably endure a slight range reduction but not too much. As it has (realistically) a 1 slot tank with massive resistance holes, so it needs its range too. Can the same be said of the other Ewar boats? Do they have one role and very little survivability? No they don't. More than any other series of ships the ECM boat nerf snowball quickly becomes an avalanche. This won't change until the ships are given some other use. As a result I don't think they'll ever be nerfed without a complete re-design. CCP have already tried nerfing ECM and we all know how that went. As stated in the other thread, its important to distinguish between boring and overpowered. ECM and the Falcon fall squarely into the former. Give me a ship that has 1 function that it does really really really really well as opposed to a ship which does NOTHING well at all (read Pilgrim). ----------------------------------------------- People enjoy flying Amarr for the same reason they like being tied up in leather, whipped and called names
Joss Sparq Caldari Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2009.02.22 03:54:00 - [50] Edited by: Joss Sparq on 22/02/2009 03:56:17 Originally by: Cpt Leks You shouldnt need falcon to counter falcon. No, but it is the easiest method to counter a Falcon and people are lazy so they usually prefer to choose the easiest option. Generally, people who understand this wisely offer up the easiest solution to save themselves time otherwise spent explaining more involved approaches that'll likely be disregarded for a good hearty whinge anyway.
Hobbledehoy Fat J Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.02.22 06:11:00 - [51] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Hobbledehoy I forgot to use me drones; long story follows Yeah I hate when I forget those. I didn't, just felt the story was long enough anyways. Had 5 hammerhead II's.... he popped 3 of them and i took the other 2 in since they weren't helping. I don't know about you but my drones only will aggress out to 1/3 of the distance the falcon is at too before you say "drones -> falcon noob." DISCLAIMER: I am not a pirate. I do not condone anti-pirate actions nor assistance of carebears. I am a proud supporter of the stop-carebears-from-greiving-our-wallets foundation.
Cpt Leks	Posted - 2009.02.22 11:18:00 - [52] Originally by: daisy dook And I've had crusiers that I just haven't been able to jam, in a large enough sample all these things will happen (though I'd like you to point me to the killboards that are littlered with multiple ECCMed BS's that have been killed by Falcons). You should fit for what you expect to encounter; if you don't feel that ECCM is a valuable module then you are obviously not encountering enough Falcons. Now which one is most likely to happen? I might have exaggerated with ECCM being useless but then again you keep missing my point. Being amarr specced i do not have such option to choose ECM too much. It's like getting module against 1 ship (which is completely chance based and 99% will get me killed anyway) or i get something that might help me kill plenty of other ship or save my ass? And NO you usually never choose to engage falcon on your own will.
Florio Federal Defence Union	Posted - 2009.02.22 11:30:00 - [53] Edited by: Florio on 22/02/2009 11:30:01 Never posted in a falcon thread before, but would just like to say that in my experience they are I-WIN ships and that just about says it all. I'd like to see their strength reduced by range (more than atm), and jam cycle time reduced a bit.
Pinky Denmark The Cursed Navy	Posted - 2009.02.22 11:49:00 - [54] The Falcon is a really important ship to have available but it cannot do any damage over 60km without rigs, it's often paper thin, it can't realy efficiently tackle... Eccm doesn't stop a Falcon but makes it a harder job. Drones still work even with jammed and you can bring your own ecm if you want. Thre more guys involved in a fight the easier it is to overwhelm a falcon. If you get involved solo vs a Falcon you are pretty much useless ofcourse... - I'm a nice guy!! But plz hook me up with some pew pew...
daisy dook	Posted - 2009.02.22 12:25:00 - [55] Edited by: daisy dook on 22/02/2009 12:26:57 Originally by: Cpt Leks Originally by: daisy dook And I've had crusiers that I just haven't been able to jam, in a large enough sample all these things will happen (though I'd like you to point me to the killboards that are littlered with multiple ECCMed BS's that have been killed by Falcons). You should fit for what you expect to encounter; if you don't feel that ECCM is a valuable module then you are obviously not encountering enough Falcons. Now which one is most likely to happen? I might have exaggerated with ECCM being useless but then again you keep missing my point. Being amarr specced i do not have such option to choose ECM too much. It's like getting module against 1 ship (which is completely chance based and 99% will get me killed anyway) or i get something that might help me kill plenty of other ship or save my ass? And NO you usually never choose to engage falcon on your own will. If your solo against a Falcon (and mates) I've got no sympathy. If your in a gang, the more jammers you soak up then the less for the rest of the gang. If you don't want to fit ECCM then don't complain about ECM it's not like CCP haven;t given us high low and mid-slot ECCM. Here's a top tip for you, Falcons generally have only one of each racial jammer available...
Myrkala Minmatar Aurora Acclivitous	Posted - 2009.02.22 12:36:00 - [56] A falcon death: Engagement: http://acclivitous.griefwatch.net/?p=engagement&kill=528 Falcon KM: http://acclivitous.griefwatch.net/?p=details&kill=528 "Ruppie ain't no puppie."
Captator Empire Assault Corp	Posted - 2009.02.22 14:40:00 - [57] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 21/02/2009 22:14:34 The ship does nothing else, that means you need to give it something in return if its nerfed drastically. The Falcon could probably endure a slight range reduction but not too much. As it has (realistically) a 1 slot tank with massive resistance holes, so it needs its range too. Can the same be said of the other Ewar boats? Do they have one role and very little survivability? No they don't. More than any other series of ships the ECM boat nerf snowball quickly becomes an avalanche. This won't change until the ships are given some other use. As a result I don't think they'll ever be nerfed without a complete re-design. CCP have already tried nerfing ECM and we all know how that went. As stated in the other thread, its important to distinguish between boring and overpowered. ECM and the Falcon fall squarely into the former. QFT, ECM being overpowered is currently a secondary concern, it is boring, fix that, and then we can see if it actually needs any correction.
Elurilmar	Posted - 2009.02.22 15:37:00 - [58] Falcons wouldn't be so overpowered if they couldn't jam from 200km
prefectro Minmatar Amok. Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.02.22 15:45:00 - [59] Originally by: welsh wizard he Falcon could probably endure a slight range reduction but not too much. What you are missing Welsh is the last speed nerf patch. Check out the the falcon posts BEFORE the speed patch and you will see heated arguments about how the Falcon was too powerful. Of course, the falcon pilots were saying the ship was perfectly balanced for the reasons you described. Now comes the speed patch that halves the speed of all ships. This effectively doubles the Falcons range. You are talking about a 300km Falcon range pre speed nerf. Do you understand why people are complaining now? I remember my very first roam after the speed patch. We came up to a gang with a Falcon, I start burning towards the falcon. I am burning and burning and burning, then looked at the distance and was still 80km away. I was floored at how long it took to reach the falcon. The Falcon pilot could have got coffee, took a ****, then jam me. All the while that I am wasting my time trying to reach the falcon, his gang is focusing fire and killing our ships. Had we all fit ECCM we are still wasting our time traveling 150km with ships that are going half the speed. Only to have it warp off or jam you. The buff that the Falcon got after the speed nerf is very real and I highly question that it needed this buff.
lecrotta Minmatar lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.02.22 15:45:00 - [60] Originally by: Elurilmar Falcons wouldn't any use if they couldn't jam from 200km fixed.

Pages: 1 [2] 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.