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I don't see what's so OP about Falcons

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Beverly Sparks	Posted - 2009.02.24 23:19:00 - [211] Originally by: chrisss0r as i said: stop trying to make up numbers of your own. if you want a specific one ask for it and i or someone else with math skills may answer it. Ok then, ignoring lock times, what is the percentage of time one BS with one mid ECCM module will be jammed, assuming 3 ecm modules will be applied to him. ECM Strength = 14 BS with one ECCM module = 48.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.24 23:24:00 - [212] Edited by: Murina on 24/02/2009 23:26:52 Originally by: Beverly Sparks Originally by: chrisss0r as i said: stop trying to make up numbers of your own. if you want a specific one ask for it and i or someone else with math skills may answer it. Ok then, ignoring lock times, what is the percentage of time one BS with one mid ECCM module will be jammed, assuming 3 ecm modules will be applied to him. ECM Strength = 14 BS with one ECCM module = 48. How many consecutive cycles 1, 2, 3?, or just the raw jam chance odds?. You do realize that you cannot multiply the number he gives by x jammers vs x BS don't you?. Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal cos lasers fragment when you approach them
Beverly Sparks	Posted - 2009.02.24 23:28:00 - [213] Originally by: lecrotta The average is a non-existent number as some have more and some have less and as such it cannot be applied to real time combat. lol
lecrotta Minmatar lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.02.24 23:33:00 - [214] Edited by: lecrotta on 24/02/2009 23:33:37 Originally by: Beverly Sparks Originally by: lecrotta The average is a non-existent number as some have more and some have less and as such it cannot be applied to real time combat. lol lol??... So if i have one ship with 24 sig str and one with 14 that means they have 19 each for the ecm to overcome......erm nope...
Beverly Sparks	Posted - 2009.02.24 23:34:00 - [215] Originally by: Murina Edited by: Murina on 24/02/2009 23:26:52 Originally by: Beverly Sparks Originally by: chrisss0r as i said: stop trying to make up numbers of your own. if you want a specific one ask for it and i or someone else with math skills may answer it. Ok then, ignoring lock times, what is the percentage of time one BS with one mid ECCM module will be jammed, assuming 3 ecm modules will be applied to him. ECM Strength = 14 BS with one ECCM module = 48. How many consecutive cycles 1, 2, 3?, or just the raw jam chance odds?. You do realize that you cannot multiply the number he gives by x jammers vs x BS don't you?. I just want the percentage of time that a ship will be jammed under the above listed conditions. Lets take that percentage over 6,000,000 cycles.
Beverly Sparks	Posted - 2009.02.24 23:36:00 - [216] Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 24/02/2009 23:33:37 Originally by: Beverly Sparks Originally by: lecrotta The average is a non-existent number as some have more and some have less and as such it cannot be applied to real time combat. lol lol??... So if i have one ship with 24 sig str and one with 14 that means they have 19 each for the ecm to overcome......erm nope... Which battelship has a sensor strength of 14.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.24 23:42:00 - [217] Originally by: Beverly Sparks I just want the percentage of time that a ship will be jammed under the above listed conditions. Lets take that percentage over 6,000,000 cycles. Its not the percentage the ship will be jammed its the chance shown as a percentage that a jammer will activate/get a jam. Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal cos lasers fragment when you approach them
lecrotta Minmatar lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.02.24 23:44:00 - [218] Originally by: Beverly Sparks Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 24/02/2009 23:33:37 Originally by: Beverly Sparks Originally by: lecrotta The average is a non-existent number as some have more and some have less and as such it cannot be applied to real time combat. lol lol??... So if i have one ship with 24 sig str and one with 14 that means they have 19 each for the ecm to overcome......erm nope... Which battelship has a sensor strength of 14. Fine one with 24 and one with 18 does not make them both into 21's....it was just a example of how adding up a average sig str is not worth the paper its written on in actual combat..
Beverly Sparks	Posted - 2009.02.24 23:50:00 - [219] Edited by: Beverly Sparks on 24/02/2009 23:53:24 Originally by: lecrotta Fine one with 24 and one with 18 does not make them both into 21's....it was just a example of how adding up a average sig str is not worth the paper its written on in actual combat.. So one might say that a Megathron is an average battleship in terms of resisting ECM with it's 21 sensor strength, and it very much exists. Actually, I think that would be the mean and not the average. The average battleship is probably going to be closer to the Dominix.
lecrotta Minmatar lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.02.24 23:58:00 - [220] Originally by: Beverly Sparks Originally by: lecrotta Fine one with 24 and one with 18 does not make them both into 21's....it was just a example of how adding up a average sig str is not worth the paper its written on in actual combat.. So one might say that a Megathron is an average battleship in terms of resisting ECM with it's 21 sensor strength, and it very much exists. From a raw sig str perspective i suppose but gang make up makes that irrelevant as each ship has a higher or lower str depending on its race and fit along with its abilities and its priority as a target for the falcon.
welsh wizard 0utbreak KrautbreaK	Posted - 2009.02.24 23:59:00 - [221] Edited by: welsh wizard on 25/02/2009 00:01:42 Originally by: UMEE Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Allahs Warrior Edited by: Allahs Warrior on 21/02/2009 20:04:35 Falcon wins whether you fit ECCM or not. Fleet with a falcon (or 1 falcon advantage): Other side either lost 3-4 ships from fighting capability. Fleet with a falcon (or 1 falcon advantage)and other side fit ECCM: other side has sacrificed (on average) 1-2 (sometimes 3) slots on every single one of their ships, most likely being the all-important midslots, and now you have a fighting advantage, and you STILL jam some ships. name any other ship that costs same as a falcon that can do that. Oh wait there isn't, because ECCM modules are absolutely worthless compared to the other things that are fit to counter other EW Bring your own. you're a **ing idiot. Maybe, but atleast I'm right. edit: Also, have to agree with the posts about ECCM not being good enough on frigs & cruisers. Could do with buffing in some way to make it more effective to their sensor strength. Bigger bonus on smaller masses or something. --------------- RIP Crazy Horse**
Beverly Sparks	Posted - 2009.02.25 00:03:00 - [222] Originally by: Murina Originally by: Beverly Sparks I just want the percentage of time that a ship will be jammed under the above listed conditions. Lets take that percentage over 6,000,000 cycles. Its not the percentage the ship will be jammed its the chance shown as a percentage that a jammer will activate/get a jam. That depends on what ship you are in. lol
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.25 00:03:00 - [223] Edited by: Murina on 25/02/2009 00:06:20 Originally by: welsh wizard Maybe, but atleast I'm right. Interesting to note that a single falcon fitted for anti-falcon duty is quite effective against multiple falcons with standard fits so "if you wanna deal with falcons bringing less falcons" is actually a acceptable comment to make..... Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal cos lasers fragment when you approach them
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.25 00:06:00 - [224] Edited by: Murina on 25/02/2009 00:06:40 Originally by: Beverly Sparks Originally by: Murina Originally by: Beverly Sparks I just want the percentage of time that a ship will be jammed under the above listed conditions. Lets take that percentage over 6,000,000 cycles. Its not the percentage the ship will be jammed its the chance shown as a percentage that a jammer will activate/get a jam. That depends on what ship you are in. lol A 48 sig str ship (rokh with eccm i suppose) vs a triple caldari racial fitted falcon is what you asked for. Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal cos lasers fragment when you approach them
Beverly Sparks	Posted - 2009.02.25 00:09:00 - [225] Originally by: lecrotta From a raw sig str perspective i suppose but gang make up makes that irrelevant as each ship has a higher or lower str depending on its race and fit along with its abilities and its priority as a target for the falcon. Yea, well that happens a lot with averages. I suppose it's a weakness to be a good representation of a certain sample of common things, you know, being right near the middle like that.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.02.25 00:13:00 - [226] Originally by: Beverly Sparks Originally by: lecrotta From a raw sig str perspective i suppose but gang make up makes that irrelevant as each ship has a higher or lower str depending on its race and fit along with its abilities and its priority as a target for the falcon. Yea, well that happens a lot with averages. I suppose it's a weakness to be a good representation of a certain sample of common things, you know, being right near the middle like that. Not really in this case, its like saying that a BS can do x max speed and a ceptor can do x max speed so lets add both together divide by two and set ups tackle mods, webs, explosion velocity ect ect by that average number.... Not a good idea tbh. Originally by: 7shining7one7 Lasers get reduced dmg inside optimal if you are approaching with 0 transversal cos lasers fragment when you approach them
Beverly Sparks	Posted - 2009.02.25 00:43:00 - [227] Perhpas, but it is not nearly as pronounced as an and interceptor and a BS'a relative speeds.
chrisss0r	Posted - 2009.02.25 06:16:00 - [228] Originally by: Beverly Sparks Originally by: chrisss0r as i said: stop trying to make up numbers of your own. if you want a specific one ask for it and i or someone else with math skills may answer it. Ok then, ignoring lock times, what is the percentage of time one BS with one mid ECCM module will be jammed, assuming 3 ecm modules will be applied to him. ECM Strength = 14 BS with one ECCM module = 48. It's irrelevant cause in a real fight situation you want apply a fix number of jammers to a specific ship, no falcon pilot does that. It's not "oh i have 3 targets, i will apply 2 jammers to each and see what happens", that brought my thread up in the first place.
ShadowGod56	Posted - 2009.02.25 06:44:00 - [229] yay another **ing falcon thread. there not over powered people are just stupid and don't know how to counter them oh and btw high % does not equal Perma jam I'm sick of these bull** terms flying around
ry ry	Posted - 2009.02.25 09:37:00 - [230] Edited by: ry ry on 25/02/2009 09:42:23 Originally by: ShadowGod56 yay another **ing falcon thread. there not over powered people are just stupid and don't know how to counter them oh and btw high % does not equal Perma jam I'm sick of these bull** terms flying around but actually being permajammed by a falcon does equal Perma jam. unless, obviously, you've never been jammed bacause you fit nothing but ECCM on everything and only ever fly a sniping rohk anyway.
Beverly Sparks	Posted - 2009.02.25 09:40:00 - [231] Originally by: chrisss0r Originally by: Beverly Sparks Originally by: chrisss0r as i said: stop trying to make up numbers of your own. if you want a specific one ask for it and i or someone else with math skills may answer it. Ok then, ignoring lock times, what is the percentage of time one BS with one mid ECCM module will be jammed, assuming 3 ecm modules will be applied to him. ECM Strength = 14 BS with one ECCM module = 48. It's irrelevant cause in a real fight situation you want apply a fix number of jammers to a specific ship, no falcon pilot does that. It's not "oh i have 3 targets, i will apply 2 jammers to each and see what happens", that brought my thread up in the first place. I guess I will just continue to make up my own numbers then.
TheGunslinger42	Posted - 2009.02.25 11:19:00 - [232] All this started by one guy whining about his "easy kill" not being so easy afterall? lol
Tigercrane	Posted - 2009.02.25 12:48:00 - [233] Edited by: Tigercrane on 25/02/2009 12:51:24 Add a new node to all ships. not a new rig slot, or a new hi/med/low slot, but an electronics array node,varying types, comes in frig/cruiser/bc/bs, etc sizes, with varying strengths,race-specific(radar, ladar, etc) designed to give the same effect of eccm but stronger. write a new story about how, after a wormhole excursion, new tech was discovered/invented/whatever. Add a counter to the counter, perhaps make the new nodes effect chance-based as well. I've never flown a falcon,(flown a BB though) and I love jamming, but it is unfair to be completely shut down with no counter. ECCM in it's current form is no counter, plus, you have to gimp your setup to fit it, just for it to fail you. Not cool.
lecrotta Minmatar lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.02.25 12:59:00 - [234] Edited by: lecrotta on 25/02/2009 12:59:27 Originally by: Tigercrane ECCM in it's current form is no counter ECCM is great that has been shown on this and many other threads. Originally by: Tigercrane You have to gimp your setup to fit it. And here is the main problem with the whiners, fitting ECCM would allow you to win fights you are now losing so it is not "gimping" your fit it is improving it. "WWWAAAA I JUST WANNA FIT GANK/TANK AND A BIT OF TACKLE!!!!!!"....is not a valid reason for a nerf.
Gen Eisenhower Amarr	Posted - 2009.02.25 14:58:00 - [235] Reducing the chance to jam after each successful cycle (by around 50% each) could make ecm more 'fair'. Ofc only if making it fair is a goal. Such penalties are in place for such effects in other mmos even if that's not a real reason.
lecrotta Minmatar lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.02.25 15:03:00 - [236] Originally by: Gen Eisenhower Reducing the chance to jam after each successful cycle (by around 50% each) could make ecm more 'fair'. Will you be giving it a similar boost on the second attempted and consecutive cycles if it misses the first ect?.
Beverly Sparks	Posted - 2009.02.25 15:49:00 - [237] Originally by: lecrotta "WWWAAAA I JUST WANNA FIT GANK/TANK AND A BIT OF TACKLE!!!!!!"....is not a valid reason for a nerf. That is not the argument most people are putting forth.
daisy dook	Posted - 2009.02.25 15:55:00 - [238] Edited by: daisy dook on 25/02/2009 15:55:32 Originally by: Beverly Sparks Originally by: lecrotta "WWWAAAA I JUST WANNA FIT GANK/TANK AND A BIT OF TACKLE!!!!!!"....is not a valid reason for a nerf. That is not the argument most people are putting forth. Just what is the arguement you are putting forth? It appears to be "if you have less than 3 gang mates then a Falcon is game over" I could be wrong.
lecrotta Minmatar lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.02.25 16:00:00 - [239] Edited by: lecrotta on 25/02/2009 16:05:57 Originally by: Beverly Sparks Originally by: lecrotta "WWWAAAA I JUST WANNA FIT GANK/TANK AND A BIT OF TACKLE!!!!!!"....is not a valid reason for a nerf. That is not the argument most people are putting forth. And yet a willingness to fit ECCM within the gang makeup solves the issue.....
Levaria Gallente Ever Flow Axiom Empire	Posted - 2009.02.25 16:49:00 - [240] As a Falcon pilot myself (and having been jammed by Falcon pilots before which got me into a Falcon ironically) People seem to underestimate their capabilities. At the same time the Falcon has the defences of a wet paper towel. In the original post the Brutix pilot was going for an easy gank and instead got jammed up and so did the Brutix's buddy. I honestly dont see what the big deal is here. The falcon is designed (and if properly flown) to jam multiple enemies if used correctly. Especially in such small fleet warfare 1 Falcon can make or breat an engagement between 10-15 ships, let alone the havonc it can wreak against one ship. Conversely if the Brutix pilot knew that that there was going to be a Caldari Force recon nearby im sure he would have fit at least 1 ECCM, but flying solo im sure he didnt expect to get jammed up. As a rule of thumb if we gate camp or were going to take on a gatecamp I always make sure i fit enough racials to break at least one other enemy falcons ECM capabilities and provide my own Jamming support. But hey thats just my two cents. Ive lost plenty falcons before to my own stupidity and some pretty clever piloting by the enemy side. ~Pirates May Cry but Care Bears will die!~

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