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I don't see what's so OP about Falcons

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Hobbledehoy Fat J Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.02.21 12:51:00 - [1] Before downtime 5 of us broke up a gate camp in F7c and started camping it ourselves. Props to the R-I-P guys for trying to re-capture their gate camp 3 times... good fights. Anyways, I logged back in after downtime and headed back toward high sec. 2 jumps out of f7c I found a lone jaguar headed the other way as me toward f7c. So I turn around thinking that would make a nice breakfast for my blaster brutix and could catch him in R-I-P's nicely placed bubbles which are still there. Perfectly according to plan, I catch the (noob) jaguar in the bubble placed by the out gate. I "failed" to target him like 5 times in a row but fortunately the jaguar seemed to give up hope of getting away and aggresses me since I landed 2 km away from him. Then finally get a lock on him, he's right at optimal range, and I let loose the fury: 7 medium t2 electron blasters and a point and web. Immediately I overheat web & all guns and watch his shield melt to about 30% in seconds. Conversely the jaguar seems to barely be able to punch through the passive shield recharge on my armor tanked brutix. Then a falcon jumps in and jams me. So there I am in disbelief that the noob seemingly just passing through had a falcon alt and the jag had a scrambler so my MWD doesn't work. Here's where things go from semi-exciting to lame and dull; we're sitting off a gate that's 100km away and I'm moving toward the gate at 72 meters per second. Although he finally got to my armor and was slowly bleeding me down, i had like 15 cap charges in my hold and dual rep so i plan to start slow boating to the gate and see what happens. Now the dud asks through local in broken english "have much battery?" I of course exagerated and responded with "had 25, down to 21.... good luck man." Meanwhile i tell my brother to log on and come help me out in his fail rail ferox by sniping the jaguar off me. Really the damage is starting to add up and i'm down to 9 cap charges and 60km away. It didn't appear like I was really going to make it back to the gate but I kept moving and waiting. Here's when I share with the jaguar my fullest expectations: "dude you're probably just going to get both of us killed when the R-I-P guys log back in with megathron, dominix, crow, stealth bomber (lol), and falcon." I'm also half hoping that when the R-I-P guys log in they would remember the good fights we had and be sympathetic towards me, helping me kill the neutral jaguar/falcon instead of me. So my brother's failrox finally arrived, we fleet up and he warps to me at 100km (his optimal) and starts "pounding" on the jaguar. Here's where the jaguar dude laughs and the falcon permajams both of us. So now while i'm the only one tackled, i'm still clearly not escaping like this. To describe the positioning, we are linearly arranged with the gate now 50km off, the falcon 140km in the direction of the gate, and my ferox partner 100km on the other side from me directly away from the gate. The falcon is easily jamming both of us 95% of the time with the jaguar now taking only occasional volleys and never dipping below 80% shield. Now depressed by the ferox's effectiveness, I start hoping that another one of my friends in a vagabond would get back from afk and log in because he mentioned needing to update skill training after downtime. However, While now relegated to increasingly certain death by falcon gayness, we revise our plan again and have the ferox approach closer and hope that his ECM drones will get a lucky jam off allowing my escape. I then aligned to the sun and multiple planets and start spamming warp and luckily this was successful. Then the jaguar pilot offers me a 1v1 with no falcon and i accept and align back..... JUST KIDDING.... haha Really he did, but we just called him a noob and said "keep trying" and left. Clearly this story demonstrates that falcons are balanced and fair and instead it's ECM drones that need to be nerfed. DISCLAIMER: I am not a pirate. I do not condone anti-pirate actions nor assistance of carebears. I am a proud supporter of the stop-carebears-from-greiving-our-wallets foundation.
Hobbledehoy Fat J Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.02.21 13:05:00 - [2] Edited by: Hobbledehoy on 21/02/2009 13:08:35 Also couple things: (1) Don't flame me for the original odds of what started a 1v1; I know brutix v jaguar 1v1 isn't exactly fair, but i'm not passing up what seems like an easy kill due to "sporting challenge" lol The challenge on my end was catching it and I had that covered with my specialized knowledge of the bubbles. (2) I think the jaguar pilot owes me isk for the hammerhead II's he popped in his fail attempt at killing me... and i told him so. hahaha. (3) mainly posted this here b/c it was too long to send in an evemail to my friends to share the story. Seems also like the type of piracy stories i liked to read on these forums so it might entertain someone else for a couple minutes. (4) falcons are gay... (5) yay brutix "Manlove Uranus" lives to fight another day. <3 this ship. haha DISCLAIMER: I am not a pirate. I do not condone anti-pirate actions nor assistance of carebears. I am a proud supporter of the stop-carebears-from-greiving-our-wallets foundation.
Cheenie	Posted - 2009.02.21 13:29:00 - [3] wot
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.02.21 13:58:00 - [4] That's easy. It's far easier to whine about a tactic than it is to think about how you're going to fight it.
Ken'Shao Minmatar Ultramarines Chapter	Posted - 2009.02.21 14:00:00 - [5] Originally by: Hobbledehoy ..... stealth bomber (lol)... stopped reading after that.
Cartoth Caldari Blindsight Inc. The Lorenz Alliance	Posted - 2009.02.21 14:39:00 - [6] Too may people complain tl;dr, way too often. Personally I appreciate a well written post with an interesting story such as this. Thank you Hobbled, and good fighting. ______________________________________________ Tasty cakes!
z0de Gallente The Bastards	Posted - 2009.02.21 14:47:00 - [7] Originally by: Hobbledehoy (1) Don't flame me for the original odds of what started a 1v1; I know brutix v jaguar 1v1 isn't exactly fair, but i'm not passing up what seems like an easy kill due to "sporting challenge" lol The challenge on my end was catching it and I had that covered with my specialized knowledge of the bubbles. The jag and falcom pilot don't care about having a sporting challenge either. You are all babies. BABIES.
Andrest Disch Amarr Letiferi Praedones	Posted - 2009.02.21 14:50:00 - [8] Originally by: James Lyrus That's easy. It's far easier to whine about a tactic than it is to think about how you're going to fight it. Yeah, the stupid OP should have had a cloaked falcon alt in tow to counter any falcons that he might come accross.
Afk anyway	Posted - 2009.02.21 14:53:00 - [9] I missed the part, where you killed the falcon. Warping the Ferox directly onto the falcon + deploying drones would've been easier. And if you bump him he might even die.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.02.21 15:15:00 - [10] Originally by: Andrest Disch Originally by: James Lyrus That's easy. It's far easier to whine about a tactic than it is to think about how you're going to fight it. Yeah, the stupid OP should have had a cloaked falcon alt in tow to counter any falcons that he might come accross. I hear fights where one side has numeric superiority are generally skewed.
Andrest Disch Amarr Letiferi Praedones	Posted - 2009.02.21 15:16:00 - [11] Originally by: James Lyrus I hear fights where one side has numeric superiority are generally skewed. I hear fights where one side can't even lock the target are pretty unfun for everyone involved.
Dristra Amarr Idle Haven	Posted - 2009.02.21 16:31:00 - [12] I heard that arguing on the internet is much like the special Olympics. Originally by: CCP Atropos the physics engine has balls I believe rats should avoid you if you have high standing with them.
Stab Wounds Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.02.21 16:44:00 - [13] FIT ECCM NOOB
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.02.21 17:17:00 - [14] Originally by: Afk anyway I missed the part, where you killed the falcon. Warping the Ferox directly onto the falcon + deploying drones would've been easier. And if you bump him he might even die. We'd have to know where the falcon was and whether it'd be easy enough to warp ontop of it. Hell, a single volley of short ranged ammo and a couple of cycles on the drones might be enough to pop a falcon. ----------------- Friends Forever
Solid Star	Posted - 2009.02.21 18:05:00 - [15] Edited by: Solid Star on 21/02/2009 18:07:31 Falcon balanced? Before the speed nerf people where whining about the Falcons 150km range while falcon pilots called them balanced. With the speed nerf the Falcon's distance was effectively doubled. So did the whines on Eve online about how they over powered. And those that love falcons still call them balanced. You could add 2 extra mid slots to a falcon and falcon pilots would still call it balanced. The falcon pilots now are just like the Vaga pilots before the speed nerf. They counter-whine hoping and praying CCP would not do anything to the obvious imbalance in the ship.
Caelum Mortuos Gallente Zero G Research and Development	Posted - 2009.02.21 19:06:00 - [16] Edited by: Caelum Mortuos on 21/02/2009 19:06:43 Originally by: Hobbledehoy (1) Don't flame me for the original odds of what started a 1v1; I know brutix v jaguar 1v1 isn't exactly fair, but i'm not passing up what seems like an easy kill due to "sporting challenge" lol The challenge on my end was catching it and I had that covered with my specialized knowledge of the bubbles. So let me get this straight, you're basically upset because your "easy kill" wasn't interested in the "sporting challenge" just like you? ok..... Edit: another falcon thread
Allahs Warrior Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2009.02.21 20:02:00 - [17] Edited by: Allahs Warrior on 21/02/2009 20:04:35 Falcon wins whether you fit ECCM or not. Fleet with a falcon (or 1 falcon advantage): Other side either lost 3-4 ships from fighting capability. Fleet with a falcon (or 1 falcon advantage)and other side fit ECCM: other side has sacrificed (on average) 1-2 (sometimes 3) slots on every single one of their ships, most likely being the all-important midslots, and now you have a fighting advantage, and you STILL jam some ships. name any other ship that costs same as a falcon that can do that. Oh wait there isn't, because ECCM modules are absolutely worthless compared to the other things that are fit to counter other EW
welsh wizard 0utbreak KrautbreaK	Posted - 2009.02.21 20:27:00 - [18] Originally by: Allahs Warrior Edited by: Allahs Warrior on 21/02/2009 20:04:35 Falcon wins whether you fit ECCM or not. Fleet with a falcon (or 1 falcon advantage): Other side either lost 3-4 ships from fighting capability. Fleet with a falcon (or 1 falcon advantage)and other side fit ECCM: other side has sacrificed (on average) 1-2 (sometimes 3) slots on every single one of their ships, most likely being the all-important midslots, and now you have a fighting advantage, and you STILL jam some ships. name any other ship that costs same as a falcon that can do that. Oh wait there isn't, because ECCM modules are absolutely worthless compared to the other things that are fit to counter other EW Bring your own. --------------- RIP Crazy Horse
Eiri Assulu	Posted - 2009.02.21 21:32:00 - [19] Originally by: Allahs Warrior Oh wait there isn't, because ECCM modules are absolutely worthless compared to the other things that are fit to counter other EW I fit an anti web device to protect from rapiers. Oh wai...
Cpt Leks	Posted - 2009.02.21 21:52:00 - [20] Originally by: welsh wizard Bring your own. You shouldnt need falcon to counter falcon. Oh and ECCM try fitting one on most amarr ships and tell us how It goes.
echohead	Posted - 2009.02.21 22:07:00 - [21] If falcons were really unbalanced they would be solo pwning people like the old curses/pilgrims. Falcons still have a paper tank, they still have zero DPS, they are slow. Even small gangs can be fitted to deal with falcons and blackbirds. for example many ships with decent speed and a turret disruptor can solo any turret based BS. People are very inflexible when it comes to dealing with things in eve. There is more to ship and fleet makeup than tank/gank. EW ships are a must in gangs, but then so are fast tacklers. How about less falcon complaint threads and more how to kill falcon threads.
welsh wizard 0utbreak KrautbreaK	Posted - 2009.02.21 22:13:00 - [22] Edited by: welsh wizard on 21/02/2009 22:14:34 The ship does nothing else, that means you need to give it something in return if its nerfed drastically. The Falcon could probably endure a slight range reduction but not too much. As it has (realistically) a 1 slot tank with massive resistance holes, so it needs its range too. Can the same be said of the other Ewar boats? Do they have one role and very little survivability? No they don't. More than any other series of ships the ECM boat nerf snowball quickly becomes an avalanche. This won't change until the ships are given some other use. As a result I don't think they'll ever be nerfed without a complete re-design. CCP have already tried nerfing ECM and we all know how that went. As stated in the other thread, its important to distinguish between boring and overpowered. ECM and the Falcon fall squarely into the former. --------------- RIP Crazy Horse
Cpt Leks	Posted - 2009.02.21 22:15:00 - [23] Originally by: echohead If falcons were really unbalanced they would be solo pwning people like the old curses/pilgrims. Falcons still have a paper tank, they still have zero DPS, they are slow. Even small gangs can be fitted to deal with falcons and blackbirds. for example many ships with decent speed and a turret disruptor can solo any turret based BS. People are very inflexible when it comes to dealing with things in eve. There is more to ship and fleet makeup than tank/gank. EW ships are a must in gangs, but then so are fast tacklers. How about less falcon complaint threads and more how to kill falcon threads. Rather than saying "even small gangs can be fitted to deal with falcons and blackbirds" give a good example? Falcons dont fly alone ever of reasons mentioned above, so to deal with falcon u need to get through his gang first. but since falcon can knock off 3-4 members of ur gang it not as easy done as said.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.02.21 22:24:00 - [24] Originally by: Hobbledehoy I forgot to use me drones; long story follows Yeah I hate when I forget those.
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.02.21 22:27:00 - [25] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Originally by: Afk anyway I missed the part, where you killed the falcon. Warping the Ferox directly onto the falcon + deploying drones would've been easier. And if you bump him he might even die. We'd have to know where the falcon was and whether it'd be easy enough to warp ontop of it. Falcon can permajam while cloaked up c/d?
echohead	Posted - 2009.02.21 22:28:00 - [26] ok fair enough. The two things that give me the most trouble when I am in a falcon are arazu's (or any other recon, high sensor strength) and any fast ship with a couple drones, ishkurs for example. Those faster ships with drones start closing range on you. Then you have to decide to run or jam him. If you run you are letting the rest of his gang off the hook, if you jam him his drones will attack you anyway and he might get a bump on you if you don't warp, then you are screwed. That is just an example, if people put their minds to it they can really make life hard on falcon pilots. They just have to give up some slots to take the rest of the game into account instead of thinking speed/gank/tank. Also remember that falcons are pretty useless in alot of lowsec because they get shredded by gate guns.
Cedric Diggory Perfunctory Oleaginous Laocoon Mugwumps	Posted - 2009.02.21 22:34:00 - [27] This is the topic you need to look at: Linkage Bottom line: falcons are not OP, but as you increase the numbers of jammers available against a fixed size gang, the probability skyrockets that ships can be kept perma-jammed. Conversely if the gang fits ECCM, the chances of retaining a lock are surprisingly high. Please read and understand the discussion in that thread before commenting further on this topic. --- Originally by: 7shining7one7 a) there are no conspiracies whatsoever b) those who believe there are are nuts
welsh wizard 0utbreak KrautbreaK	Posted - 2009.02.21 22:36:00 - [28] Originally by: Cpt Leks Originally by: echohead If falcons were really unbalanced they would be solo pwning people like the old curses/pilgrims. Falcons still have a paper tank, they still have zero DPS, they are slow. Even small gangs can be fitted to deal with falcons and blackbirds. for example many ships with decent speed and a turret disruptor can solo any turret based BS. People are very inflexible when it comes to dealing with things in eve. There is more to ship and fleet makeup than tank/gank. EW ships are a must in gangs, but then so are fast tacklers. How about less falcon complaint threads and more how to kill falcon threads. Rather than saying "even small gangs can be fitted to deal with falcons and blackbirds" give a good example? Falcons dont fly alone ever of reasons mentioned above, so to deal with falcon u need to get through his gang first. but since falcon can knock off 3-4 members of ur gang it not as easy done as said. So, are you going to counter the real arguments? Or just ask the same tired old wall butting questions people always ask when they're simpily frustrated and don't have a point? You're bored of being jammed, so am I. That doesn't automatically mean the culprit is overpowered. --------------- RIP Crazy Horse
Cpt Leks	Posted - 2009.02.21 22:42:00 - [29] Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Cpt Leks Originally by: echohead If falcons were really unbalanced they would be solo pwning people like the old curses/pilgrims. Falcons still have a paper tank, they still have zero DPS, they are slow. Even small gangs can be fitted to deal with falcons and blackbirds. for example many ships with decent speed and a turret disruptor can solo any turret based BS. People are very inflexible when it comes to dealing with things in eve. There is more to ship and fleet makeup than tank/gank. EW ships are a must in gangs, but then so are fast tacklers. How about less falcon complaint threads and more how to kill falcon threads. Rather than saying "even small gangs can be fitted to deal with falcons and blackbirds" give a good example? Falcons dont fly alone ever of reasons mentioned above, so to deal with falcon u need to get through his gang first. but since falcon can knock off 3-4 members of ur gang it not as easy done as said. So, are you going to counter the real arguments? Or just ask the same tired old wall butting questions people always ask when they're simpily frustrated and don't have a point? You're bored of being jammed, so am I. That doesn't automatically mean the culprit is overpowered. Doesnt that imply that theres something wrong with the ecm mechanics? Oh yeah sitting there and waiting till you die without pretty much any real counter measure is very exciting.
daisy dook	Posted - 2009.02.21 22:45:00 - [30] Originally by: Cpt Leks Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Cpt Leks Originally by: echohead If falcons were really unbalanced they would be solo pwning people like the old curses/pilgrims. Falcons still have a paper tank, they still have zero DPS, they are slow. Even small gangs can be fitted to deal with falcons and blackbirds. for example many ships with decent speed and a turret disruptor can solo any turret based BS. People are very inflexible when it comes to dealing with things in eve. There is more to ship and fleet makeup than tank/gank. EW ships are a must in gangs, but then so are fast tacklers. How about less falcon complaint threads and more how to kill falcon threads. Rather than saying "even small gangs can be fitted to deal with falcons and blackbirds" give a good example? Falcons dont fly alone ever of reasons mentioned above, so to deal with falcon u need to get through his gang first. but since falcon can knock off 3-4 members of ur gang it not as easy done as said. So, are you going to counter the real arguments? Or just ask the same tired old wall butting questions people always ask when they're simpily frustrated and don't have a point? You're bored of being jammed, so am I. That doesn't automatically mean the culprit is overpowered. Doesnt that imply that theres something wrong with the ecm mechanics? Oh yeah sitting there and waiting till you die without pretty much any real counter measure is very exciting. But that's an issue of game design rather than game balance. Give me interesting ECM and I will go back to flying a Falcon.

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