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Karentaki Gallente Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.02.22 16:01:00 - [61] Originally by: daisy dook Originally by: Mortuus Not that I think this thread is necessary (we already know falcons are IMBA) but how is it that you should have to specifically fit to counter a ship by using a Fleet Sniper setup BS with at least 2-3 ECCMs to take care of a single Falcon? Basically, the problem with the Falcon is not its jamming strength, the problem is, that unlike every other form of EW, they can engage from 160+km and be successful. I think that if Falcons were forced into the 30-60km range most of the problem would be solved. By making the Falcon a non-viable ship, one missed jame and poof. Come on lets have a serious suggestion? Have you ever flown an arazu by any chance? They have an optimal range of about 40-50 km, and guess what. If an enemy ship that isn't damped spots them and they don't warp in time, they're dead. The problem with falcons is that while other ewar ships get large falloff small optimal, falcons get large optimal small falloff. This basically means they can get 100% effectiveness out to ridiculous ranges. Also, boost arazus. Quote: EVE is like a sandbox with landmines. Deal with it.
welsh wizard 0utbreak KrautbreaK	Posted - 2009.02.22 16:06:00 - [62] I'm fully aware of whats changed in the last year despite my absence dude. You stick its optimal within the range of the sniper hacs and every BS and its going to become the last choice. It doesn't have a large enough tank or any defence to speak of to enable it to operate at anything less than 160km. Even at that range its two volley fodder for any sniper BS. If its going to get its range nerfed in a big way then it needs buffing in other areas to make it more worthwhile at short ranges. --------------- RIP Crazy Horse
Cpt Leks	Posted - 2009.02.22 16:22:00 - [63] Originally by: daisy dook If your solo against a Falcon (and mates) I've got no sympathy. If your in a gang, the more jammers you soak up then the less for the rest of the gang. If you don't want to fit ECCM then don't complain about ECM it's not like CCP haven;t given us high low and mid-slot ECCM. Here's a top tip for you, Falcons generally have only one of each racial jammer available... misinterpreting doesnt make you look good neither does ignorance.
daisy dook	Posted - 2009.02.22 21:28:00 - [64] Edited by: daisy dook on 22/02/2009 21:28:53 Originally by: Karentaki Originally by: daisy dook Originally by: Mortuus Not that I think this thread is necessary (we already know falcons are IMBA) but how is it that you should have to specifically fit to counter a ship by using a Fleet Sniper setup BS with at least 2-3 ECCMs to take care of a single Falcon? Basically, the problem with the Falcon is not its jamming strength, the problem is, that unlike every other form of EW, they can engage from 160+km and be successful. I think that if Falcons were forced into the 30-60km range most of the problem would be solved. By making the Falcon a non-viable ship, one missed jame and poof. Come on lets have a serious suggestion? Have you ever flown an arazu by any chance? They have an optimal range of about 40-50 km, and guess what. If an enemy ship that isn't damped spots them and they don't warp in time, they're dead. The problem with falcons is that while other ewar ships get large falloff small optimal, falcons get large optimal small falloff. This basically means they can get 100% effectiveness out to ridiculous ranges. Also, boost arazus. If an enemy ship that isn't damped, as opposed to 'the laws of probability hate you today your jam has failed, you die'. The problem is comparing ewar ships... they are all designed to do different things. p.s. Also, boost arazus. Originally by: Cpt Leks Originally by: daisy dook If your solo against a Falcon (and mates) I've got no sympathy. If your in a gang, the more jammers you soak up then the less for the rest of the gang. If you don't want to fit ECCM then don't complain about ECM it's not like CCP haven;t given us high low and mid-slot ECCM. Here's a top tip for you, Falcons generally have only one of each racial jammer available... misinterpreting doesnt make you look good neither does ignorance. What aspect of misinterperating has gone on there? All I did was put things into context. You are either solo against Falcon (and gang) or you are in a gang. If you are solo then disengaging might be your only option. If you are in a gang and you soak up all the Falcon's jammers then that's a win for your gang and that Falcon should soon be dead.
SheriffFruitfly Caldari	Posted - 2009.02.22 21:49:00 - [65] They aren't OP. Everybody knows it. It's just that some prefer to not alter their gameplay, but would rather whine. __________________________________________________________
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2009.02.22 22:06:00 - [66] Edited by: Terianna Eri on 22/02/2009 22:09:26 Originally by: SheriffFruitfly They aren't OP. Everybody knows it. It's just that some prefer to not alter their gameplay, but would rather whine. Or it's that they have the overwhelmingly strongest electronic warfare at a range outside that of nearly ALL ships that aren't totally devoted to range. What's the trade off here? Spoilers: Trading "everything else" for "electronic warfare superiority" isn't a trade. All the recons are EWAR ships and the rest of them have sacrificed some of their bonuses for some competency in everything else. P.S. yeah, I've altered my gameplay. My curse and battleships have ECCM fit. I bring mobile ships that will sometimes be able to reach out to hit falcons. Doesn't change the fact that seeing them in the proliferation they're in already just kinda sucks. __________________________________ Originally by: CCP Whisper Boo hoo. Cry some more.
chrisss0r	Posted - 2009.02.22 22:09:00 - [67] Originally by: welsh wizard I'm fully aware of whats changed in the last year despite my absence dude. You stick its optimal within the range of the sniper hacs and every BS and its going to become the last choice. It doesn't have a large enough tank or any defence to speak of to enable it to operate at anything less than 160km. Even at that range its two volley fodder for any sniper BS. If its going to get its range nerfed in a big way then it needs buffing in other areas to make it more worthwhile at short ranges. they are not weaker than the other recons. Only reason they can be volleyed is that the don't have any tank module at all cause they don't need it.
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2009.02.22 22:10:00 - [68] Originally by: chrisss0r Originally by: welsh wizard I'm fully aware of whats changed in the last year despite my absence dude. You stick its optimal within the range of the sniper hacs and every BS and its going to become the last choice. It doesn't have a large enough tank or any defence to speak of to enable it to operate at anything less than 160km. Even at that range its two volley fodder for any sniper BS. If its going to get its range nerfed in a big way then it needs buffing in other areas to make it more worthwhile at short ranges. they are not weaker than the other recons. Only reason they can be volleyed is that the don't have any tank module at all cause they don't need it. 200 KM Reinforced Rolled Tungsten plate 4tw __________________________________ Originally by: CCP Whisper Boo hoo. Cry some more.
lecrotta Minmatar lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.02.22 22:12:00 - [69] Originally by: Terianna Eri What's the trade off here? Succeeding in a jam or failing miserably with the roll of a dice is the trade off, the other systems effects are 100% guaranteed within their optimal ranges. Oh and only having a single effect instead of two like the other recons.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.02.22 22:29:00 - [70] or you could have run into a single pilgrim/curse and died. clearly falcon is op (ffs I don't even know if I am being serious or trolling on this one)
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.02.22 22:31:00 - [71] Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 22/02/2009 22:24:05 Originally by: Terianna Eri 200 KM Reinforced Rolled Tungsten plate 4tw = -1 jam str module.... you missed the joke
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2009.02.22 22:35:00 - [72] Edited by: Terianna Eri on 22/02/2009 22:35:00 Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 22/02/2009 22:24:05 Originally by: Terianna Eri 200 KM Reinforced Rolled Tungsten plate 4tw = -1 jam str module.... Look harder Originally by: lecrotta Originally by: Terianna Eri What's the trade off here? Succeeding in a jam or failing miserably with the roll of a dice is the trade off, the other systems effects are 100% guaranteed within their optimal ranges. ECM is 100% guaranteed to work against anything with sensor strength lower than jammer strength. This includes the vast majority of frigates and a fair number of cruisers. Originally by: lecrotta Oh and only having a single effect instead of two like the other recons. Because spreading out your competency in an EWAR ship is a good idea right, that's why we see ships devoted to being able to do two things poorly instead of one thing well.. ... wait... That's a strength of the Falcon, not a weakness. __________________________________ Originally by: CCP Whisper Boo hoo. Cry some more.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.02.22 22:41:00 - [73] oh and if everyone knows that amarr is the fotm close range ship, why don't people just bring pure amarr fleets and laugh as only 1 ship gets jammed, or if they eccm up only one ship will get jammed every few cycles. because everyone knows the falcon only fits one of each racial
lecrotta Minmatar lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.02.22 22:43:00 - [74] Originally by: Terianna Eri ECM is 100% guaranteed to work against anything with sensor strength lower than jammer strength. This includes the vast majority of frigates and a fair number of cruisers. If your gonna compare a max skilled T2 recon ship specifically fitted for jam str and range VS a non-eccm fitted t1 frig or cruiser then you are way to biased to be with arguing with. Originally by: Terianna Eri Because spreading out your competency in an EWAR ship is a good idea right, that's why we see ships devoted to being able to do two things poorly instead of one thing well.. ... wait... That's a strength of the Falcon, not a weakness. Then go take your falcon solo roaming and see how things go pal..., the other recons do it great.
Chainsaw Plankton IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE	Posted - 2009.02.22 22:47:00 - [75] Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton or you could have run into a single pilgrim/curse and died. clearly falcon is op (ffs I don't even know if I am being serious or trolling on this one) I'll take you seriously: Run into single pilgrim/curse and died... Unless... you have a cap injector you have good drones or even kill their drones you have your own cap warfare (heavy nos are good when you're capped out i hear) you have capless weapon systems cap injector works for a bit they can kill your drones too wtb heavy nos brutix! you get td'ed to the point where you can't even hit them.
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2009.02.22 23:02:00 - [76] Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton or you could have run into a single pilgrim/curse and died. clearly falcon is op (ffs I don't even know if I am being serious or trolling on this one) I'll take you seriously: Run into single pilgrim/curse and died... Unless... you have a cap injector you have good drones or even kill their drones you have your own cap warfare (heavy nos are good when you're capped out i hear) you have capless weapon systems cap injector works for a bit they can kill your drones too wtb heavy nos brutix! you get td'ed to the point where you can't even hit them. I didn't say you were likely to WIN. But you can at least do something even if you'll die anyway :P (p.s. missiles are good against curses :( ) __________________________________ Originally by: CCP Whisper Boo hoo. Cry some more.
daisy dook	Posted - 2009.02.22 23:09:00 - [77] Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton or you could have run into a single pilgrim/curse and died. clearly falcon is op (ffs I don't even know if I am being serious or trolling on this one) I'll take you seriously: Run into single pilgrim/curse and died... Unless... you have a cap injector you have good drones or even kill their drones you have your own cap warfare (heavy nos are good when you're capped out i hear) you have capless weapon systems cap injector works for a bit they can kill your drones too wtb heavy nos brutix! you get td'ed to the point where you can't even hit them. I didn't say you were likely to WIN. But you can at least do something even if you'll die anyway :P (p.s. missiles are good against curses :( ) Well if doing things is your creteria for something not being over-powered then we can safely say the Falcon is not OP. When jammed you can: 1. Move at full speed 2. Move using an AB at full speed 3. Move using a MWD at full speed 4. Warp away 5. Sit back and let your drones do the talking 6. Fire FoF missiles
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2009.02.22 23:09:00 - [78] Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 22/02/2009 22:50:07 Originally by: Terianna Eri ECM is 100% guaranteed to work against anything with sensor strength lower than jammer strength. This includes the vast majority of frigates and a fair number of cruisers. If your gonna compare a max skilled T2 recon ship specifically fitted for jam str and range VS a non-eccm fitted t1 frig or cruiser then you are way to biased. Why? A max skilled cruiser has the same sensor strength as an unskilled cruiser. You don't judge NOS or neut effectiveness against someone fit for maximum recharge, you don't judge TD effectiveness based against a fleet stabber with dual 180s and tracking computers, and you don't judge ECM effectiveness against something with ECCM fit. And by cruisers, I didn't mean T1 cruisers only. Some HACs have <14.xx sensor strength (Zealot, Vaga, Muninn). Also most T2 frigs have sensor strength that low. You're changing the point though. Your point was that other ewar works 100% of the time when in optimal - well whoo hoo, ECM works 100% of the time against a HUGE number of ships. Originally by: Terianna Eri Because spreading out your competency in an EWAR ship is a good idea right, that's why we see ships devoted to being able to do two things poorly instead of one thing well.. ... wait... That's a strength of the Falcon, not a weakness. Then go take your falcon solo roaming and see how things go pal..., the other recons do it great./quote] I don't fly the falcon. I fly fun ships instead. Recons aren't very good solo ships anyway, very low dps :( Anyway the point was that if you have a recon ship, every single thing you do that sacrifices its ewar for the sake of something else weakens the ship. __________________________________ Originally by: CCP Whisper Boo hoo. Cry some more.
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2009.02.22 23:13:00 - [79] Originally by: daisy dook Well if doing things is your creteria for something not being over-powered then we can safely say the Falcon is not OP. When jammed you can: 1. Move at full speed 2. Move using an AB at full speed 3. Move using a MWD at full speed 4. Warp away 5. Sit back and let your drones do the talking 6. Fire FoF missiles 1. so what, you can hit them with your smartbombs? 2. so what, you can hit them with your smartbombs? 3. so what, you can hit them with your smartbombs? 4. hurrah ECM lets you leave, that seems like a cool game mechanic, honestly the best way to counter ecm once your jammed is to SIT THERE AND DO NOTHING because if you leave you're just freeing up more jammers for your gang mates 5. lol nice range 6. lol nice range My problem with ECM isn't really that it's necessarily overpowered, but that it's BORING AS . I'll leave this thread cause I honestly don't feel like debating, but I'll link you to a thread that basically summarizes how I feel about it. look and be amazed __________________________________ Originally by: CCP Whisper Boo hoo. Cry some more.
daisy dook	Posted - 2009.02.22 23:20:00 - [80] Originally by: Terianna Eri Originally by: daisy dook Well if doing things is your creteria for something not being over-powered then we can safely say the Falcon is not OP. When jammed you can: 1. Move at full speed 2. Move using an AB at full speed 3. Move using a MWD at full speed 4. Warp away 5. Sit back and let your drones do the talking 6. Fire FoF missiles 1. so what, you can hit them with your smartbombs? 2. so what, you can hit them with your smartbombs? 3. so what, you can hit them with your smartbombs? 4. hurrah ECM lets you leave, that seems like a cool game mechanic, honestly the best way to counter ecm once your jammed is to SIT THERE AND DO NOTHING because if you leave you're just freeing up more jammers for your gang mates 5. lol nice range 6. lol nice range My problem with ECM isn't really that it's necessarily overpowered, but that it's BORING AS . I'll leave this thread cause I honestly don't feel like debating, but I'll link you to a thread that basically summarizes how I feel about it. look and be amazed Your right, I missed smart bombs... Anyway, more importantly Originally by: Terianna Eri I didn't say you were likely to WIN. But you can at least do something even if you'll die anyway :P Best to leave now whilst your still on a high. btw, I agree being a Falcon pilot is boring and I wish CCP would come up with a more interesting mechanic for Caldari ECM; something that will allow their recons to have a drone bay and actually get involved in the fighting.
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2009.02.22 23:23:00 - [81] Edited by: Terianna Eri on 22/02/2009 23:23:28 Originally by: daisy dook btw, I agree being a Falcon pilot is boring and I wish CCP would come up with a more interesting mechanic for Caldari ECM; something that will allow their recons to have a drone bay and actually get involved in the fighting and also not say "haha you don't get to play the game for the next twenty seconds" when it hits someone. FYP <3 __________________________________ Originally by: CCP Whisper Boo hoo. Cry some more.
UMEE	Posted - 2009.02.23 00:13:00 - [82] Originally by: welsh wizard Originally by: Allahs Warrior Edited by: Allahs Warrior on 21/02/2009 20:04:35 Falcon wins whether you fit ECCM or not. Fleet with a falcon (or 1 falcon advantage): Other side either lost 3-4 ships from fighting capability. Fleet with a falcon (or 1 falcon advantage)and other side fit ECCM: other side has sacrificed (on average) 1-2 (sometimes 3) slots on every single one of their ships, most likely being the all-important midslots, and now you have a fighting advantage, and you STILL jam some ships. name any other ship that costs same as a falcon that can do that. Oh wait there isn't, because ECCM modules are absolutely worthless compared to the other things that are fit to counter other EW Bring your own. you're a ****ing idiot.
UMEE	Posted - 2009.02.23 00:15:00 - [83] Originally by: daisy dook Edited by: daisy dook on 21/02/2009 23:05:59 Originally by: Mortuus How is that different to any other ship? Vaga gets webbed or scrambled and it can go poof, and its not like it warps cloaked either. A BS gets tracking disrupted vs a cruiser or frigate and its dead. Everything has a counter other than itself. Falcons use ECM as their means of a tank. Your tank fails on another ship you go poof, no difference. It's different because ECM is a chance based mechanic, make ECM 100% effective and I might consider agreeing with you. I believe that it has been proven how effective ECCM is at countering jamming. The trouble is people don't want to fit it; I see this as proof that the Falcon threat is vastly over spoken in the forums. another falcon fanboy. i thought i dealt with you in the Arazu thread. these people are completely delusional lol. as someone said, add another 2 midslots to the falcon, and they'll still think it's balanced.
Shigsy Neo Spartans	Posted - 2009.02.23 00:30:00 - [84] Remove range to 100km. Keep strength as it is. Problem solved.
Lanais Suleia	Posted - 2009.02.23 01:34:00 - [85] Originally by: Eiri Assulu Originally by: Allahs Warrior Oh wait there isn't, because ECCM modules are absolutely worthless compared to the other things that are fit to counter other EW I fit an anti web device to protect from rapiers. Oh wai... An afterburner pretty much wipes out the effects of a 50-60% web. I presume that that wasn't what you were talking about though?
prefectro Minmatar Amok. Minor Threat.	Posted - 2009.02.23 07:07:00 - [86] Originally by: welsh wizard I'm fully aware of whats changed in the last year despite my absence dude. You stick its optimal within the range of the sniper hacs and every BS and its going to become the last choice. It doesn't have a large enough tank or any defence to speak of to enable it to operate at anything less than 160km. Even at that range its two volley fodder for any sniper BS. You make a good point about sniping hacs, even though the Rapier and Curse have to operate in under 40km range, are often primaried first, and they both have crappy tanks. In saying that, the Falcon is a more dangerous ship so it would be primaried over the rapier/curse. At the end of the day all I want to see is for the Falcon to be rebalanced to its pre speed nerf effectiveness. And, as you pointed out, simply cutting the range would not be the correct (or fair) fix. What does bug me is that some pretend that the Falcon was not buffed because of the speed nerf.
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.02.23 07:17:00 - [87] Eh, they're purely support and contribute no DPS, dont get on as many KM's because of such, paper thin, and have to choose between racials or multispecs--so the chance isn't as disastrous as most think. Should their range be nerfed a bit? Yea, prevent falcon alts for one, and bring it more inline with its recon brethren. ----------------- Friends Forever
chrisss0r	Posted - 2009.02.23 07:55:00 - [88] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg Eh, they're purely support and contribute no DPS, dont get on as many KM's because of such, paper thin, and have to choose between racials or multispecs--so the chance isn't as disastrous as most think. - Contribute no Dps is no point when you have a ship with the role to shut down enemies dps and ewar -paper thin is not true. You just don't see rapiers with 6 webs cause the need some tank cause of their range and it's not like the can stop a fleet of vagas if they have 6 webs anyways :X -The difference between having the right and wrong racials looks nice in theory but makes almost no difference. That's the reason why having an other races sensors on certain t3 ships is a nice idea but won't work at all. Remove the off-race jam strenght of racials so you get a real trade off between racials and 200 and maybe ****ed cause you encounter 4 armageddons and have 1 radar jammer vs more reliable jamming with multies from 100km proof that wrong racials do almost nothing to your jamchance if you only have few targets: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=974928
MukkBarovian	Posted - 2009.02.23 08:02:00 - [89] The tournament as a whole demonstrated that in a fair battle ecm is pretty balanced. Ecm ships died for the most part and the heavy ecm teams tended to suck. Tracking disruptors and sensor damps were the ewar of choice for the last two days of the tourney. Unfortunately EvE isnt all about fair battles and thats where the falcon's niche is. Cloaked ecm possibly used on an alt might be overpowered. Eccm low and midslots work but theyre wasted midslots most of the time unlike somthing like a sensor booster or a tracking computer which both counter specific ewar somewhat. Speed nerf doubled falcon range, and he falcon was the only ship that got an ewar strength bonus when that form of ewar got nerfed. Personally I'd like to see them nerfed. On the other hand I haven't seen many around lately. Lets just all try hauling battleship snipers in our fleets until the ****ers go away comepletely.
Misina Arlath Amarr	Posted - 2009.02.23 08:12:00 - [90] Originally by: Cpt Leks Oh yeah sitting there and waiting till you die without pretty much any real counter measure is very exciting. If you don't like being warp scrambled, fit a stabber. If you don't like being track disrupted, fit a track enhancer/comp. If you don't like being webbed, fit an AB/MWD If you don't like being jammed, fit ECCM. Considering how much whining and moaning there is about the Falcons, and how everyone has a Falcon alt, I'm quite frankly surprised that not more people fit ECCM these days. Although I can't be disagree that the huge range on the Falcons jamming is the real issue, since you'll most likely be dead before you can even get within range of the Falcon in the first place. Anyways, enjoy the internet fighting! -------------------------------------------------- "Every complex problem has a solution which is easy, neat and wrong!"

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