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Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.03.04 17:08:00 - [361] Originally by: NereSky This idea; '1. Make it a forum that you have to apply on behalf of your corporation or alliance for posting rights here. Make that application something the moderation team can exercise discretion on. This will allow good long term posters like Mitchman of omniscient order to post but would still bar obvious alt posting outfits like THE INTERNET. This would also prevent all new alt posting entities since the moderators could do a little due diligence and look them up in game.' is really atually quite good, specified Alliance leaders/CEO's and diplomats would all be able to post therby restricing the amount of spam, if anyone of them breaks the rules incuring a ban then it can effevt the whole corp/alliance for that time period causing people to take more responsibilty for their posts, Im sure CCP can add a role in the corp/Alliance so a restricted amount of individuals can post representative topics to their entity But what if we want to see things from the perspective of a grunt? Presumably they would be allowed to post their thoughts on a different forum, such as Warfare and Tactics? And if so, what's to stop the spammers simply moving to a different forum? Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
Pezzle Amarr Imperial Dreams Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.04 17:09:00 - [362] Edited by: Pezzle on 04/03/2009 17:13:48 Sorry, no. Public forums all contain useless trash. Go look at any public gaming forums and you can find useless posts, trash, whining, boasting and other offenses. CAOD is indeed worse than some of those, however, less terrible is still terrible. Public forums are terrible for two reasons. Being public and human nature. Yes steps can be taken to improve the situation. Some bans of course, but it is not all up to moderators and excessive procedures.
NereSky Gallente Domination. Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.03.04 17:11:00 - [363] Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: NereSky This idea; '1. Make it a forum that you have to apply on behalf of your corporation or alliance for posting rights here. Make that application something the moderation team can exercise discretion on. This will allow good long term posters like Mitchman of omniscient order to post but would still bar obvious alt posting outfits like THE INTERNET. This would also prevent all new alt posting entities since the moderators could do a little due diligence and look them up in game.' is really atually quite good, specified Alliance leaders/CEO's and diplomats would all be able to post therby restricing the amount of spam, if anyone of them breaks the rules incuring a ban then it can effevt the whole corp/alliance for that time period causing people to take more responsibilty for their posts, Im sure CCP can add a role in the corp/Alliance so a restricted amount of individuals can post representative topics to their entity But what if we want to see things from the perspective of a grunt? Presumably they would be allowed to post their thoughts on a different forum, such as Warfare and Tactics? And if so, what's to stop the spammers simply moving to a different forum? Absolutely nothing, but at least in the short term we get a Active and easy to read CAOD involving every Alliance/Corp that wishes to post constructively, If and only the same spam hits another thread at least we will have 1 area where conflict and politics are easy to read/decipher and understand, and CCP and the responsible playerbase will help moderate the other forum area (a sort of work in progress)
Rodj Blake Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2009.03.04 17:13:00 - [364] Originally by: NereSky Originally by: Rodj Blake Originally by: NereSky This idea; '1. Make it a forum that you have to apply on behalf of your corporation or alliance for posting rights here. Make that application something the moderation team can exercise discretion on. This will allow good long term posters like Mitchman of omniscient order to post but would still bar obvious alt posting outfits like THE INTERNET. This would also prevent all new alt posting entities since the moderators could do a little due diligence and look them up in game.' is really atually quite good, specified Alliance leaders/CEO's and diplomats would all be able to post therby restricing the amount of spam, if anyone of them breaks the rules incuring a ban then it can effevt the whole corp/alliance for that time period causing people to take more responsibilty for their posts, Im sure CCP can add a role in the corp/Alliance so a restricted amount of individuals can post representative topics to their entity But what if we want to see things from the perspective of a grunt? Presumably they would be allowed to post their thoughts on a different forum, such as Warfare and Tactics? And if so, what's to stop the spammers simply moving to a different forum? Absolutely nothing, but at least in the short term we get a Active and easy to read CAOD involving every Alliance/Corp that wishes to post constructively, If and only the same spam hits another thread at least we will have 1 area where conflict and politics are easy to read/decipher and understand, and CCP and the responsible playerbase will help moderate the other forum area (a sort of work in progress) We wouldn't have an active CAOD though, since the debate would simply move to somewhere where more people could post. Dulce et decorum est pro imperium mori.
NereSky Gallente Domination. Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.03.04 17:16:00 - [365] yeah but the polical battle/posts would be done by representatives of the Corp and/or alliance IN RL Noteworthy news is on the main stream news you dont find a grunt or some low key politician stating Govermental statute and perspectives, you get key members of goverment and military senior leaders All the others get to go on local and regional news ie the main headlines should be in CAOD
Ishbuanium Gallente Pr0j3ct M4yh3m	Posted - 2009.03.04 17:17:00 - [366] Originally by: NereSky This idea; '1. Make it a forum that you have to apply on behalf of your corporation or alliance for posting rights here. Make that application something the moderation team can exercise discretion on. This will allow good long term posters like Mitchman of omniscient order to post but would still bar obvious alt posting outfits like THE INTERNET. This would also prevent all new alt posting entities since the moderators could do a little due diligence and look them up in game.' is really atually quite good, specified Alliance leaders/CEO's and diplomats would all be able to post therby restricing the amount of spam, if anyone of them breaks the rules incuring a ban then it can effevt the whole corp/alliance for that time period causing people to take more responsibilty for their posts, Im sure CCP can add a role in the corp/Alliance so a restricted amount of individuals can post representative topics to their entity You'd really have to make it a different forum though. One that I'm guessing will very quickly end up dead for the most part.
NereSky Gallente Domination. Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.03.04 17:22:00 - [367] Well all i can say is i can see points on both sides of the coin, theres been plenty of discussion which has been refreshing to see on CAOD, unfortunately im not the best poster in the world (far from it lol) And im trying my best to communicate my idea's with the best of intentions - the main point though there has to be changes to CAOD to make it constructive and the idea i have quoted is the best ive seen sofar albeit im sure CCP can look at it and tweek it to make it suit most players needs, but we have to clean up this forum somehow imo
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.04 17:24:00 - [368] Originally by: Aneu Angellus Originally by: Kyrie Elaison If you guys were serious about "fixing" this forum instead of just whining about the good old days, you could try posting your version of constructive content. Just a thought. Lol, for goons to ****post in it ? I think not... look at my thread that was just locked... goon spew in it after 2min! We're just trying to help out. We figured that if we didn't post in your thread then no one would know about it as it scrolled off the page. And that would be horrible! Lots of Love -Goumindong
Montasque Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.04 18:02:00 - [369] Nothing constructive is being put forward by the likes of Jade, who is a REACTIONARY CONSERVATIVE through and through. Unfortunately for Jade, and his gang of haters, things will never be as they once were. EvE culturally has moved in a new direction, the player base is more American, and younger, and as CCP releases a boxed version of the game that new player base will continue to grow. And If you read between the lines a lot of what is posted in this thread is no better than a so called ægoon trash threadÆ. ThereÆs very little actual content and a lot of hate and vitriol being thrown around, but since itÆs under the guise of a wall-of-text people seem to give it a pass.
NereSky Gallente Domination. Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.03.04 18:16:00 - [370] Originally by: Montasque Nothing constructive is being put forward by the likes of Jade, who is a REACTIONARY CONSERVATIVE through and through. Unfortunately for Jade, and his gang of haters, things will never be as they once were. EvE culturally has moved in a new direction, the player base is more American, and younger, and as CCP releases a boxed version of the game that new player base will continue to grow. And If you read between the lines a lot of what is posted in this thread is no better than a so called ægoon trash threadÆ. ThereÆs very little actual content and a lot of hate and vitriol being thrown around, but since itÆs under the guise of a wall-of-text people seem to give it a pass. I totally disagree i suggested a idea quite similar to Jades in February on this thread http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1000375&page=2 and tbh Jades is better written than mine was giving more clearer defined wording, as far as the anti-goon stuff ur suggesting the whole thread isnt just aimed at Goons except (and you have to agree) that a lot of posts that are spam/troll are made by Goons albeit i have seen some good threads/posts and the humour given on accassion has made me laugh but those rare posts are smothered by the rest of the goons posts of spam and troll

Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.04 18:29:00 - [371] Originally by: Rodj Blake But what if we want to see things from the perspective of a grunt? Presumably they would be allowed to post their thoughts on a different forum, such as Warfare and Tactics? And if so, what's to stop the spammers simply moving to a different forum? I really don't have any problem with CAOD being host to a "grunt's perspective" - as long as they realize they are partially responsible for their organizations reputation and continued posting rights on the forum. What isn't cool, is people continually using this forum for flaming and trolling and personal attacks and being able to simply roll up new flame alts as fast as the old ones are banned. We all know this is what happens, thats why so many of the trash threads are full of characters marked with "!" indicating their recent creation. By making a representative of an organization ask on behalf of that organization for posting rights on CAOD - (and reserving the sanction of suspending that entire organization for misdeeds) you will improve the mood and content of CAOD immeasurably. Nobody has a problem with a "grunt" posting a grunts eye view battle report. Most people do have a problem with a "grunt" posting nonsense spam and flaming to absolutely no worthwhile content. ISSUE - Bring back space bushido
Palmer Eldritch Gallente Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.04 18:37:00 - [372] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Rodj Blake But what if we want to see things from the perspective of a grunt? Presumably they would be allowed to post their thoughts on a different forum, such as Warfare and Tactics? And if so, what's to stop the spammers simply moving to a different forum? I really don't have any problem with CAOD being host to a "grunt's perspective" - as long as they realize they are partially responsible for their organizations reputation and continued posting rights on the forum. What isn't cool, is people continually using this forum for flaming and trolling and personal attacks and being able to simply roll up new flame alts as fast as the old ones are banned. We all know this is what happens, thats why so many of the trash threads are full of characters marked with "!" indicating their recent creation. By making a representative of an organization ask on behalf of that organization for posting rights on CAOD - (and reserving the sanction of suspending that entire organization for misdeeds) you will improve the mood and content of CAOD immeasurably. Nobody has a problem with a "grunt" posting a grunts eye view battle report. Most people do have a problem with a "grunt" posting nonsense spam and flaming to absolutely no worthwhile content. I have a real problem with this. First of all, players post on their own behalf, not their alliance or corporation's. Secondly, the worst trolling I have seen on this forum has come not from a grunt or new character but from the CEO of a corp, Jericho Fraction. People have as much of a problem with a CEO posting nonsense spam and flaming as with any other player. Any changes which actually make it easier for them to do that will simply lower the tone of CAOD. ------------ Coranor you all know i can't stand most of the gbc but while we have them we may as well give them something challenging where they can actually learn a bit Dian fair point
Dalmuti Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.04 18:37:00 - [373] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Rodj Blake But what if we want to see things from the perspective of a grunt? Presumably they would be allowed to post their thoughts on a different forum, such as Warfare and Tactics? And if so, what's to stop the spammers simply moving to a different forum? I really don't have any problem with CAOD being host to a "grunt's perspective" - as long as they realize they are partially responsible for their organizations reputation and continued posting rights on the forum. What isn't cool, is people continually using this forum for flaming and trolling and personal attacks and being able to simply roll up new flame alts as fast as the old ones are banned. We all know this is what happens, thats why so many of the trash threads are full of characters marked with "!" indicating their recent creation. By making a representative of an organization ask on behalf of that organization for posting rights on CAOD - (and reserving the sanction of suspending that entire organization for misdeeds) you will improve the mood and content of CAOD immeasurably. Nobody has a problem with a "grunt" posting a grunts eye view battle report. Most people do have a problem with a "grunt" posting nonsense spam and flaming to absolutely no worthwhile content. can i get on the vip list for your space-bordello?
Ishbuanium Gallente Pr0j3ct M4yh3m	Posted - 2009.03.04 18:40:00 - [374] Originally by: Jade Constantine Originally by: Rodj Blake But what if we want to see things from the perspective of a grunt? Presumably they would be allowed to post their thoughts on a different forum, such as Warfare and Tactics? And if so, what's to stop the spammers simply moving to a different forum? I really don't have any problem with CAOD being host to a "grunt's perspective" - as long as they realize they are partially responsible for their organizations reputation and continued posting rights on the forum. What isn't cool, is people continually using this forum for flaming and trolling and personal attacks and being able to simply roll up new flame alts as fast as the old ones are banned. We all know this is what happens, thats why so many of the trash threads are full of characters marked with "!" indicating their recent creation. By making a representative of an organization ask on behalf of that organization for posting rights on CAOD - (and reserving the sanction of suspending that entire organization for misdeeds) you will improve the mood and content of CAOD immeasurably. Nobody has a problem with a "grunt" posting a grunts eye view battle report. Most people do have a problem with a "grunt" posting nonsense spam and flaming to absolutely no worthwhile content. People have a problem with that type of posting don't blame just grunts. CEOs and such do it also.
Jade Constantine Gallente Jericho Fraction The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.04 18:58:00 - [375] Originally by: Palmer Eldritch I have a real problem with this. First of all, players post on their own behalf, not their alliance or corporation's. I think thats your problem really. This forum (CAOD) is supposed to be used for corporate and alliance announcements, politics and battle reports. People posting here are supposed to be representing their alliance and corporations. When it gets to the point that instead of doing that the forum is just used for trash-posting and trolling it loses its purpose. Thats what people are saying in this very thread. It needs sorting out. If you want to post (purely for yourself) then go post in General discussion. ISSUE - Bring back space bushido
NereSky Gallente Domination. Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.03.04 19:02:00 - [376] Lol whats with these personnal attacks to Jade? hes posted with some really good ideas/suggestions and the only really constructive reply from some Goons is attack him All this is doing is proving a point re trolls, if a rstricted few from Alliances/corps were only allowed to post and they continued to troll/flame and go against the 'spirit of the game' then they will no longer be able to post therefore losing their voice on CAOD and the forums if they continue.
Ishbuanium Gallente Pr0j3ct M4yh3m	Posted - 2009.03.04 19:11:00 - [377] Originally by: NereSky Lol whats with these personnal attacks to Jade? hes posted with some really good ideas/suggestions and the only really constructive reply from some Goons is attack him All this is doing is proving a point re trolls, if a rstricted few from Alliances/corps were only allowed to post and they continued to troll/flame and go against the 'spirit of the game' then they will no longer be able to post therefore losing their voice on CAOD and the forums if they continue. Killing the forum. All these attacks are on jade and those who keep saying this forum needs more moderation because these are the people who fail to contribute any content at all to it. They don't write battle reports, they don't do announcements about anything, they don't post anything that in any way contributes to the way this forum is supposed to be. That makes them worse than goons and the rest of their allies, who at least keep us up to date on what they are doing in Delve and those areas, regardless of how much it may seem like chest beating. So the message here is create content. Do something. CAOD doesn't need to be changed. You do. Start actually putting some effort and work into the board and see what comes out of it.
Palmer Eldritch Gallente Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.04 19:14:00 - [378] Edited by: Palmer Eldritch on 04/03/2009 19:14:25 Originally by: Jade Constantine This forum (CAOD) is supposed to be used for corporate and alliance announcements, politics and battle reports. This is true. Originally by: Jade Constantine People posting here are supposed to be representing their alliance and corporations. This does not logically follow. ------------ Coranor you all know i can't stand most of the gbc but while we have them we may as well give them something challenging where they can actually learn a bit Dian fair point
NereSky Gallente Domination. Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.03.04 19:14:00 - [379] Originally by: Ishbuanium Originally by: NereSky Lol whats with these personnal attacks to Jade? hes posted with some really good ideas/suggestions and the only really constructive reply from some Goons is attack him All this is doing is proving a point re trolls, if a rstricted few from Alliances/corps were only allowed to post and they continued to troll/flame and go against the 'spirit of the game' then they will no longer be able to post therefore losing their voice on CAOD and the forums if they continue. Killing the forum. All these attacks are on jade and those who keep saying this forum needs more moderation because these are the people who fail to contribute any content at all to it. They don't write battle reports, they don't do announcements about anything, they don't post anything that in any way contributes to the way this forum is supposed to be. That makes them worse than goons and the rest of their allies, who at least keep us up to date on what they are doing in Delve and those areas, regardless of how much it may seem like chest beating. So the message here is create content. Do something. CAOD doesn't need to be changed. You do. Start actually putting some effort and work into the board and see what comes out of it. Sorry i disagree but thanks for the comments as constructive as they werent :)
Ishbuanium Gallente Pr0j3ct M4yh3m	Posted - 2009.03.04 19:16:00 - [380] Originally by: NereSky Originally by: Ishbuanium Originally by: NereSky Lol whats with these personnal attacks to Jade? hes posted with some really good ideas/suggestions and the only really constructive reply from some Goons is attack him All this is doing is proving a point re trolls, if a rstricted few from Alliances/corps were only allowed to post and they continued to troll/flame and go against the 'spirit of the game' then they will no longer be able to post therefore losing their voice on CAOD and the forums if they continue. Killing the forum. All these attacks are on jade and those who keep saying this forum needs more moderation because these are the people who fail to contribute any content at all to it. They don't write battle reports, they don't do announcements about anything, they don't post anything that in any way contributes to the way this forum is supposed to be. That makes them worse than goons and the rest of their allies, who at least keep us up to date on what they are doing in Delve and those areas, regardless of how much it may seem like chest beating. So the message here is create content. Do something. CAOD doesn't need to be changed. You do. Start actually putting some effort and work into the board and see what comes out of it. Sorry i disagree but thanks for the comments as constructive as they werent :) Thanks for deriding any contribution to this discussion that doesn't agree with your own opinions as irrelevant and not meaningful. Especially when people agree with them.

NereSky Gallente Domination. Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.03.04 19:20:00 - [381] Well all im going to say is ive already stated that i understand both sides of the discussion and when you say that ive dissed ur comment tbh i didnt and also its fair to say theres arguements for and against change so every person that agrees with you there will be someone who disagrees facts of life but i at least am trying to be personable. Have a nice day
Ishbuanium Gallente Pr0j3ct M4yh3m	Posted - 2009.03.04 19:22:00 - [382] Originally by: NereSky Sorry i disagree but thanks for the comments as constructive as they werent :) Then I assume I'm getting all offended over a typo. Hopefully.
thatboydc Caldari GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.04 19:24:00 - [383] Originally by: Scruffy Jed Who is this Jade Constantine dude? If you please, SIR, I say Jade is not only a horrible troll, but a cur of the lowest sorts! He is a knave, a rascal, an eater of broken meats, a base, proud, shallow, beggarly, three-suited, action-taking, ***daughter glass-gazing, superserviceable, finical rogue; one-trunk-inheriting slave; one that wouldst be a bawd in way of good service, and art nothing but the composition of a knave, beggar, coward, pander, and the offsrping and heir of a mongrel ***, one whom I will beat into clamorous whining if thou deniest the least syllable of thy addition.
Palmer Eldritch Gallente Ultrapolite Socialites GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.04 19:27:00 - [384] Edited by: Palmer Eldritch on 04/03/2009 19:27:19 Originally by: NereSky Lol whats with these personnal attacks to Jade? hes posted with some really good ideas/suggestions and the only really constructive reply from some Goons is attack him All this is doing is proving a point re trolls, if a rstricted few from Alliances/corps were only allowed to post and they continued to troll/flame and go against the 'spirit of the game' then they will no longer be able to post therefore losing their voice on CAOD and the forums if they continue. If I might add my own perspective - in recent days, Jade has consistently and it appears deliberately derailed threads on this board by repeatedly replying to threads with either i) his thoughts on changes that should be made to 0.0 warfare or ii) adverts for Star Fraction which properly belong in the recruitment forum, regardless of the original topic. Polite requests to stop have either been ignored, or, in the case of Goons, met with insulting comments describing us all as "insects". It's only natural therefore that when the same player complains about the standard of posting on COAD, the inconsistency is pointed out. Edit - Let me stress that this is the situation as I see it and not meant as an attempt to cause drama if you have a different view ------------ Coranor you all know i can't stand most of the gbc but while we have them we may as well give them something challenging where they can actually learn a bit Dian fair point
NereSky Gallente Domination. Force Of Evil	Posted - 2009.03.04 19:31:00 - [385] Originally by: Palmer Eldritch Edited by: Palmer Eldritch on 04/03/2009 19:27:19 Originally by: NereSky Lol whats with these personnal attacks to Jade? hes posted with some really good ideas/suggestions and the only really constructive reply from some Goons is attack him All this is doing is proving a point re trolls, if a rstricted few from Alliances/corps were only allowed to post and they continued to troll/flame and go against the 'spirit of the game' then they will no longer be able to post therefore losing their voice on CAOD and the forums if they continue. If I might add my own perspective - in recent days, Jade has consistently and it appears deliberately derailed threads on this board by repeatedly replying to threads with either i) his thoughts on changes that should be made to 0.0 warfare or ii) adverts for Star Fraction which properly belong in the recruitment forum, regardless of the original topic. Polite requests to stop have either been ignored, or, in the case of Goons, met with insulting comments describing us all as "insects". It's only natural therefore that when the same player complains about the standard of posting on COAD, the inconsistency is pointed out. Edit - Let me stress that this is the situation as I see it and not meant as an attempt to cause drama if you have a different view Then report his post and let the moderators do their work, theres no need to have a hundred people trolling/flaming him back on posts that are non inflamatory but hey it maybe a cultural thing but still against forum rules as is calling Goons insects, CAOD can be emotive i myself have have been guilty of inflamatory remarks which isnt in the spirit of the game, whence im one of the players calling for sterner moderation and a better CAOD and to be fair im not the only one, Anyway it appears this thread is getting de-railed and running off topic
Itzena Amarr GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.04 20:04:00 - [386] Originally by: NereSky Lol whats with these personnal attacks to Jade? hes posted with some really good ideas/suggestions... Name one.
O Thief Amarr The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.03.04 20:24:00 - [387] Originally by: Itzena Originally by: NereSky Lol whats with these personnal attacks to Jade? hes posted with some really good ideas/suggestions... Name one. Whether you agree with his points is irrelevent - this is after all a forum for discussion and the airing of sometimes opposing views. But his posts are coherent, well argued, devoid of personal attacks, and contain substance. Unlike your little two word retort, which is the kind of pointless troll we all come to know and expect from your alliance.
Asuri Kinnes Caldari Adhocracy Incorporated	Posted - 2009.03.04 20:35:00 - [388] I think it would be great for this forum if it were "invite only". Corporation/Alliance CEO's, Information Officers and Propoganda Officers only posting. Would (imho) help this forum a great deal. The point has been made that "if you do that, the trolls will only go elsewhere..." Well, that is kinda the point. Also that "people who post here are only posting for themselves, you can't make their alliance/corp responsible". Well, yes, CCP could. All they would have to do is change the rules to reflect that. To the OP, I only browse this forum once a week or so, about as often as I browse my account on S/A - there is a limit to how many childish memes / flames / trolls one can stand in a week. As for Jade Constantine? I have only played for 13 mos... I don't have a clue about what happened in the past, all I can comment on is what I know. If he did all these horrible trolls in the past, and was banned, well and good. But CCP let him back in... All I'm really sure of, if this forum is ever going to live up to its description, it needs help. LOTS of help. AK Honor is that which you do when no one else is looking.
Devian 666 Gallente Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.04 20:40:00 - [389] Originally by: O Thief Originally by: Itzena Originally by: NereSky Lol whats with these personnal attacks to Jade? hes posted with some really good ideas/suggestions... Name one. But his posts are coherent, well argued, devoid of personal attacks, and contain substance. I see that you don't bother reading any of Jade's posts either. http://obeythekitten.com/
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.03.04 20:50:00 - [390] Originally by: O Thief But his posts are coherent, well argued, devoid of personal attacks, and contain substance. This is not true. I am sure you didn't know this before posting, so its O.K. but you can read this thread for further examples of why your statement is not true Hugs and Kisses -Goumindong



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