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Mussaschi
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Posted - 2009.03.02 11:25:00 -
[1]
I have some problems with the influence of scan strength. Frankly it seems, that it is "almost" useless. Did some exploration in something other than a covered ops and still had no problems to lock down a site. So why use a fragile covered ops frig, when the bonus is useless. Same applies to sister probes and the virtue implants. If you can lock anything down anyways, all this bonus/skills are simply useless. Will it stay that way?
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Great Artista
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.03.02 11:33:00 -
[2]
Yeah, but then again CCP made the exploration probe launchers take little cpu so they can be fitted on non-probing specced ships. Reduces the chances of being permanently stuck in WH space.
Maybe probe agility/warp speed bonus on cov-ops? Make it BIG bonus too, like 20% per level, so there is still sense in using the coverts for scanning.
Just throwing it out there. 
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Ineun
Internal Anarchy
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Posted - 2009.03.02 12:06:00 -
[3]
im pretty sure the probes base their warp speed off the ships base warp speed anyway, saw this somewhere (probe warp speed multiplier i think)
what they need to do is make the covops much better for scanning ships like it used to be, where you could find a guys safespot in a system within 30 seconds and be ready to warp your fleet on him at 0 within 60
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Warscythe Prime
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.03.02 12:12:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: Mussaschi
a covered ops
Covert Ops...
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Chips nBeans
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Posted - 2009.03.02 12:41:00 -
[5]
Yup, prepare to see the prices on everything fall to the bottom of the useless pile.
Think of all those probe blue prints that everyone has invested in, not worth the paper they are written on now. Astrometrics 5? wasted training time, Sisters of Eve loyalty points... implants will now be worthless, as will Sisters probe launchers, as will all the probes.. about the only profitable thing left there will be skills books.
I expect a lot of angry threads, lol. 
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Wingshard
Ikazuchi and Raikou Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.03.02 13:19:00 -
[6]
actualy astrometrics 5 will stil be useful but only cause of moonprobes.... well not really useful but not a total waste to have :P
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Mussaschi
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Posted - 2009.03.02 13:21:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Chips nBeans
I expect a lot of angry threads, lol.
It's not the SP or LP or ISK what is wasted now, it is that there is no need at all, to learn this skills. The most time consuming about the scanning system is to locate the probes on the right spot (even made harder, by this great interface).
Scan strength plays (as far as I have experienced) no role in that. So whether you want to scan down a 10/10 plex or a 0.0 Wormhole, you do it within minutes, regardless of this skills. So why bother.
And useless skills are ultimately just boring
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Miyamoto Uroki
Caldari
Katsu Response Unit
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Posted - 2009.03.02 13:37:00 -
[8]
huh? Thought Astrometrics V would be needed for the Deep Space probes. The ones that will replace the current multispecs, no?
*Haven't been on Sisi yet so plz be kind ^^
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Captain Vampire
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Posted - 2009.03.02 13:42:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Miyamoto Uroki
huh? Thought Astrometrics V would be needed for the Deep Space probes. The ones that will replace the current multispecs, no?
*Haven't been on Sisi yet so plz be kind ^^
No, it is a bug afaik. Only advantage with Astro V is the fact that you can have 8 probes in space, which makes scanning stuff A LOT easier.
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Mussaschi
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Posted - 2009.03.02 13:53:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Mussaschi on 02/03/2009 13:53:06
Originally by: Captain Vampire
which makes scanning stuff A LOT easier.
Really? It took me 4 min to lock down a site in 0.0 with 5 probes in non covert-ops. How much faster will it get with 8, or did I overread the sarcasm tag?
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Dadder
Quantum Revolutions
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Posted - 2009.03.02 13:58:00 -
[11]
I actually had found a spot yesterday that i could NOT get a 100% scan on using a recon. best i could actually get was about 60%. this was after easily finding several other sites and i even reverted to using the system of narrowing it down to 100% with one probe then stacking probes on the first one.
Just for clarification, i have been scanning on sisi all along and know very well how it works (or doesn't usually), this site would have required a cov-ops or perhaps better skills then just astrometrics IV.
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.03.02 14:12:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Space Wanderer on 02/03/2009 14:14:21
Holy Moses, this thread is a festival of misinformation. Some infos:
1) Scan str in the CURRENT (read: bugged) state of scanner probes is not useful, EXCEPT to determine if it is impossible for you to find a site/ship. In essence if your scan str bonuses are too low there are some sites/ships you won't be able to find no matter what.
2) Scan str in the (hopefully) completed version of the scan system will probably affect the deviation of the reported spot. Thus, it will make it easier to find a site/ship (in addition to what written in 1).
3) Astro V required to use deep space probes is NOT a bug, but an intended feature, explicitly done by greyscale.
4) Deep space probes are definitely not needed for exploration, although could be marginally useful. Their main use is to bust deep safes.
5) 8 probes vs 7 is not that much better to find a single site, if you know what you are doing. The thing for what it could be useful is whether you are looking two sites/ships at the same time, or to scan two potential safes at the same time.
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Sleepkevert
Amarr
Rionnag Alba
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Posted - 2009.03.02 14:20:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Space Wanderer
5) 8 probes vs 7 is not that much better to find a single site, if you know what you are doing. The thing for what it could be useful is whether you are looking two sites/ships at the same time, or to scan two potential safes at the same time.
I think a Dev said that in the current implementation the signal strength is calculated from the 4 best hits. So your scan strength will not increase with the amount of probes...
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.03.02 14:28:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Sleepkevert
I think a Dev said that in the current implementation the signal strength is calculated from the 4 best hits. So your scan strength will not increase with the amount of probes...
That is correct. The reason why more probes might still be (marginally) useful is because with more probes you have more points from which to choose the "4 best hits". But if you know what you are doing that shouldn't make any difference.
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Red 7
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Posted - 2009.03.02 14:43:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Space Wanderer
4) Deep space probes are definitely not needed for exploration, although could be marginally useful. Their main use is to bust deep safes.
Don't underestimate the value of Deep Space in W-Space systems with lots of sigs. They are invaluable in finding all signals quickly.
Try:
a) Zooming out in the system map as much as possible centered on the sun
b) Drop 2 DS probes and move them to opposite sites of the display
c) Scan & then use 1 or 2 cores to narrow down the signal to a small filled circle
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.03.02 14:47:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Red 7
Don't underestimate the value of Deep Space in W-Space systems with lots of sigs.
Oh, I don't, I admit they are convenient. But you shouldn't underestimate the effect of deviation, either. What you suggest will work only until deviation is introduced in 2+ probe hits. When (if?) deviation is introduced, the maximum deviation of 512AU will make DSP quite redundant, except to multispec the system or bust deep safespots.
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OMGJITA
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Posted - 2009.03.02 14:51:00 -
[17]
my MAX skilled scanning alt char is slightly ****ed off at this...
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Red 7
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Posted - 2009.03.02 14:56:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Space Wanderer
Edited by: Space Wanderer on 02/03/2009 14:48:43
Edited by: Space Wanderer on 02/03/2009 14:47:38
Originally by: Red 7
Don't underestimate the value of Deep Space in W-Space systems with lots of sigs.
Oh, I don't, I admit they are convenient, although not a necessity. But you shouldn't underestimate the effect of deviation, either. What you suggest will work only until deviation is introduced in 2+ probe hits. When (if?) deviation is introduced, the maximum deviation of 512AU will probably make DSP quite redundant, except to multispec the system or bust deep safespots.
Even with a max deviation of 512 AU (reduced with skills) - using a further DS (making 3) would provide enough information to make resolution of the signal much simpler wouldn't it?
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.02 15:09:00 -
[19]
The Deep Space Probes are meant to replace OBSERVATORS.
Anyway, scanning being easier to not suddenly mean that running the sites and doing them have become easier.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Chips nBeans
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Posted - 2009.03.02 15:09:00 -
[20]
dont get me wrong, I love the new system, OK, so certain parts might actually be harder, but ultimately quicker and so more enjoyable (instead of staring at a timer)
As for having 8 probes out.. well you never need more than 4, unless your a nub and only understand spamming probes. So signal strength and AstroV does have an effect... great, but the effect is so marginal that no fool will spend 3 months training all the skills.
Makes me laugh actually, there is all this argument about learning skills benefiting players after so many years, and now 3 months worth of training has become relatively pointless.
Glad I never trained them, and even more glad I didnt spend my LP/ISK on useless 500m implants.
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Tetractys
Gallente
Masterminds Industries
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Posted - 2009.03.02 15:21:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Chips nBeans
dont get me wrong, I love the new system, OK, so certain parts might actually be harder, but ultimately quicker and so more enjoyable (instead of staring at a timer)
As for having 8 probes out.. well you never need more than 4, unless your a nub and only understand spamming probes. So signal strength and AstroV does have an effect... great, but the effect is so marginal that no fool will spend 3 months training all the skills.
Makes me laugh actually, there is all this argument about learning skills benefiting players after so many years, and now 3 months worth of training has become relatively pointless.
Glad I never trained them, and even more glad I didnt spend my LP/ISK on useless 500m implants.
/signed
CCP have to do something with this problem. for sure. 3 month of hard skilling (Signal Acquisition is a rank 8  - fortunately for me stopped at lvl 4  ) must have a balanced solution.
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.03.02 15:26:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Red 7
Even with a max deviation of 512 AU (reduced with skills) - using a further DS (making 3) would provide enough information to make resolution of the signal much simpler wouldn't it?
I don't think much. Assuming all the reductions of skills etc, I think it is very realistic that the red spot may easily deviate on a radius of 100AU (check the distance deviation of single probe scans, if you don't believe me). This is larger than most solar systems are. You would need subsequent iterations with DSP at smaller ranges to pinpoint the site in adecent area that can then be tackled by core or combat probes. Unless you are explicitly looking for something outside the boundaries of the solar system it would take you much less time to start scanning immediately with 32AU probes.
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Exoth3rmic
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Posted - 2009.03.03 00:01:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Exoth3rmic on 03/03/2009 00:03:24
Whilst it is undoubtedly true that scanning down signatures is now in essence quicker and easier, without max (or high) skills AND being the pilot of a cov ops you can't scan down _every_ signature. So the high end plexes etc are stil the domain of those who skilled for exploration.
If you skilled up just to find low end plexes faster....well you only did it for the profit and that you will have already had, and will continue to have, the benefit of that training.
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Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2009.03.03 00:53:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Exoth3rmic
Edited by: Exoth3rmic on 03/03/2009 00:03:24
If you skilled up just to find low end plexes faster....well you only did it for the profit and that you will have already had, and will continue to have, the benefit of that training.
Big if. I suspect a sizable majority of people who maxed out CovOps skills did it for PvP reasons.
If there is a problem (and I'm not saying there is even though I do recognise the concern others have raised) I think it is that in the context of wormhole space unless you are in a gang of 20 with capital support the Sleepers are so bloody hard that no one is going to be looking for the hardest signatures anyway. And given that PvP scanning would now appear to be a dead art I think some people have the understandable concern that an entire class of ships (namely CovOps) and the associated skills are about to be made pretty much redundant.
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ollobrains2
Gallente
New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2009.03.03 00:58:00 -
[25]
apply the bonuses perhaps to combat probes only
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Neutrino Sunset
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
Nex Eternus
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Posted - 2009.03.03 01:09:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Great Artista
Maybe probe agility/warp speed bonus on cov-ops? Make it BIG bonus too, like 20% per level, so there is still sense in using the coverts for scanning.
Just throwing it out there.
I'd go with something like that. Atm in a large system it takes longer for your probes to warp to their probing locations and return to the ship than it currently takes to actually probe out a ship and warp to it on Tranquility.
Originally by: Space Wanderer
2) Scan str in the (hopefully) completed version of the scan system will probably affect the deviation of the reported spot. Thus, it will make it easier to find a site/ship (in addition to what written in 1).
Considering we are now 5 working days from go-live and so far they haven't even got close to having the scanning UI working properly yet, and have already dropped more from this upgrade than pretty much any other, I wouldn't bet much on deviation making it into M10.
And even if deviation does make it in there's a fair chance that the only effect of that will be that low skilled chars will have to make one extra 10 second scan to narrow down their results. That's not much to show for training a rank 8 skill to lvl V.
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Exoth3rmic
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Posted - 2009.03.03 01:13:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Exoth3rmic on 03/03/2009 01:18:28
Quote:
Big if. I suspect a sizable majority of people who maxed out CovOps skills did it for PvP reasons.
Obviously this is from an exploration point of view, not from a pvp perspective. I think all would agree that for pvp purposes the system needs either to be re-specd as you yourself mention. Wormholes do offer PvP, but were primarily added for explorers - who they then let through the harder to find WH's is up to them.
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ollobrains2
Gallente
New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2009.03.03 01:43:00 -
[28]
yes they seem to have made some changes today but they go to far can only find amols having a very hard time tracking down signatures
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
DEATH'S LEGION
Red Box.
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Posted - 2009.03.03 04:19:00 -
[29]
Hmm, in my experience the scan strength bonus does help a great deal (at least with my sucky skills ).
Example:
Scanned like 6 hours in numerous lowsec system with a regular ship (probe base str 48 for me), this left me with a large number of sites I couldnt find, got anywhere around 80-97% but no warpable result possible.
Switched to cheetah (probe base str 67 for me), went back to the systems, and found most of them (still on it atm, but I guess I'll get them all as I had good success on the very weak sigs).
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2009.03.03 04:49:00 -
[30]
tbh, the only really useful skill that's worth V'ing is astrometrics.
for me anyways; having 4 deeps and 4 cores at the same time, switching back and forth when mapping those 20+ signatures in Wspace? sounds perfect. actually... not even switching but keep both quadruplets going every time.
same for combat probing really: keeping the combat probes in their tetrahedron, shift-dragging the entire bulb around to every result the deeps return.
without astro V and 8 probes, you'll go nuts if you're after anything that didnt log with aggro. long range - short range - long range - short range.. ugh
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putting the gist back into logistics |
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Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
DEATH'S LEGION
Red Box.
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Posted - 2009.03.03 05:25:00 -
[31]
The other skills are worth working on for non-bonused ships for sure.
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Daesul ShadoWind
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Posted - 2009.03.03 06:10:00 -
[32]
I've been dropping probes on the test server and I can actually score 100% on some deadspace signiture on 3 probes.. but it won't let me warp to them, Is it inteneded or is it still broken. I'm scoring less then 1m Km away from the object..
Mr Murphy is after me and you, he's the ultimate in Pvp and has not yet lost a match.
Beware.. he will find you. |
Mussaschi
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Posted - 2009.03.03 06:40:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Daesul ShadoWind
I've been dropping probes on the test server and I can actually score 100% on some deadspace signiture on 3 probes.. but it won't let me warp to them, Is it inteneded or is it still broken. I'm scoring less then 1m Km away from the object..
You need 4 probes to nail it down. Once you understood the system, it is easy. Or boring if you prefer that term.
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Mussaschi
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Posted - 2009.03.05 14:16:00 -
[34]
Just did a testround on sissi, and thought I should make the problem clearer.
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An Anarchyyt
Gallente
Battlestars
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.05 14:39:00 -
[35]
Probing should be the hardest part of running a site.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler
Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
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Fox Ogmo
Net 7
The Last Brigade
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Posted - 2009.03.05 14:42:00 -
[36]
I quite like that knowing how to do it seems to make more of a difference than ur SP now (despite my SP spent in exploration).
However, you found one site in a non-bonused ship.... that is not a conclusive investigation.
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Marmios
Elite Aeronautic Developer Syndicate
Kraftwerk.
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Posted - 2009.03.05 14:47:00 -
[37]
You guys ever thought about scanning 2 sites at the same time? For this youll need 8 probes and this is very usefull in WH space.
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Mussaschi
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Posted - 2009.03.05 14:47:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Fox Ogmo
I quite like that knowing how to do it seems to make more of a difference than ur SP now (despite my SP spent in exploration).
However, you found one site in a non-bonused ship.... that is not a conclusive investigation.
It just proved that the excel sheet with the scan strength calculations excel sheet is still valid, and that simply means, that any bonus is overkill, as long as you stay away from deep 0.0 sites, and don't plan to do ship scanning.
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Katarlia Simov
Minmatar
Cowboys From Hell
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Posted - 2009.03.05 15:43:00 -
[39]
Originally by: An Anarchyyt
Probing should be the hardest part of running a site.
QFT. With my current skills and set-up, all but the most extreme 0.0 sites show up within half an hour.
However, that's half an hour when I can't do ANYTHING.
I hate the idea that if we trained skills we've already made profit off them. Let's nerf the crap out of BS 5 and all weapon skills and see how you all like it.
If I want to make money, I go to high sec and mission run with my alt, because I can make a lot of money very quickly. I prefer to spend my time out in low sec or close 0.0 hitting radar and mag sites. I don't make a lot of money, but I enjoy exploring. I enjoy that no-one else has been here before. That's fun to me.
When plexes become little more inconvenient than going to an agent, it'll kill this for me.
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Deep1
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Posted - 2009.03.05 15:48:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Mussaschi
It just proved that the excel sheet with the scan strength calculations excel sheet is still valid, and that simply means, that any bonus is overkill, as long as you stay away from deep 0.0 sites, and don't plan to do ship scanning.
and by the same logic large Guns are a complete waste of time if you are only flyning cruiser size ships or smaller !
Comon ..ANY skill and bonus only has it value if you are going to use it
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Megan Maynard
Minmatar
Out of Order
Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2009.03.05 16:09:00 -
[41]
The higher strength really helps in 0.0 exploration. ALOT.
Stop, hammer time. |
Mashimara
Gallente
Rim Collection RC
Kraftwerk.
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Posted - 2009.03.05 17:15:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Marmios
You guys ever thought about scanning 2 sites at the same time? For this youll need 8 probes and this is very usefull in WH space.
You hit the nail on the head here. ALl you people belly aching about Astro 5 and having 8 probes out being useless, YOU have not been in w-space obviously!!! Do you have a CLUE how many anoms and sigs are in w-space??? A **** TON!!! So having 4x DS probes out in a cross to pull in deviated site points and then having 4x core probes out to quickly move arond. I can chart out a w-space in under an HOUR!!! And the average sites in a w-space that I have found so far has ranged from:
Anoms 3 to 15
Sigs 15 to 40
So in all you will have at least 20 sites in a single w-space system. That would be a LOT of range changes if you used only 4 probes
but leaving DS 4 at range and switching to cores once you have an area is THE way to scan and fast. But ofc you have to have the game skill as well as the player skillz.
Mashimara
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GateScout
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Posted - 2009.03.05 17:28:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Great Artista
Maybe probe agility/warp speed bonus on cov-ops? Make it BIG bonus too, like 20% per level, so there is still sense in using the coverts for scanning.
I like this idea alot. Waiting for probes to warp is now the #1 time-sink for probing.
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2009.03.05 18:03:00 -
[44]
Current patch 05-03-09. Ver.:83552
I went out in a T3 ship with core launcher and got a Wh to 97% .. but no amount of tweaking or adding probes could get it any closer. Spent 40 minutes to no avail.
Travelled two jumps, grabbed a covops (level4 skills) equipped the core launcher and got a warp able result in less than 10 minutes.
With strength as bonus CCP can tweak the various signatures so that only a CovOps can find them, thereby making them a preferred ship to use for probing.
Probe Strength = Probing Speed, seems like a good balance mechanic to me and it doesn't exclude 90% of the available ships from exploring - just no harder stuff without a bonus.
I had problems nailing down a 3/10 in a non-bonus ship so strength is definitely worth it.
The new probing mechanism exchanges player interaction for wasted time, which is a good thing in my book.
On TQ you spend a total of 2 minutes dropping probes and then wait for up to several hours for a warp-to, new system you spend up to 20-30 minutes of constant tweaking and map movement to get a warp-to.
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puckohontas
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Posted - 2009.03.05 20:37:00 -
[45]
well, just because its 100% signal dont mean its warpable wh,
i use 1probe to get 100% before putting out more probes, lets say its 90% with 0.25au, just move little to right, and if it increases, move more to left and viceversa.
then just throw 3probes around it to make it warpable
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