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Jack Bombardier
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Posted - 2009.03.05 08:22:00 -
[1]
I'm a Carrier pilot myself and I'm seeing this more and more "Dreads > Carrier" whenever we're going to war to a point where one starts to feel down right unappreciated. The only reason I can think of is that dreads can take on battleships and other capital ships and Carriers are only really effective against cruisers and frigates.
Does anyone else have an input?
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Xindi Kraid
Gene Works
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Posted - 2009.03.05 08:34:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Xindi Kraid on 05/03/2009 08:36:54
Dreadnoughts smash things. They are useful for sieging POSes and killing cap ships (very important in war)
Carriers are capital logistics ships, ALL logistics ships, be they T1 T2 or Capital are somewhat situational. In addition to that, Carriers explode more easily so taking them onto the battlefield is a risky proposition, added to the fact that you should shoot the medic first, carriers are more likely to be lost in combat.
ALL Support ships seem to have the problem of being second class citizens, everyone wants to pew pew, and the FCs want more DPS, DPS that support ships don't provide. Not everyone seems to understand the value of logistics in staying in a fight longer.
In addition, even if the FC understands the value of a carrier, you only need one or two, for a good siege, a few more dreads would be preferable. Just the same as you would only need a few logistics cruisers in a fleet of battleships.
Don't be too concerned though, you just need to join the right group, a smart FC can see the value of some dreads supported by a couple of carriers. very scary stuff.
-Xindi Kraid: Delivering acerbic wit and scathing comments with just a dash of 'stab you in the eye' |
TimMc
Gallente
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2009.03.05 08:35:00 -
[3]
Dreads take down POS, need to take down POS to take sovereignty.
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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
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Posted - 2009.03.05 08:57:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: TimMc
Dreads take down POS, need to take down POS to take sovereignty.
This. Carriers are far more useful for general fleet battles, but a 0.0 alliance lives and dies by the strength of its dread fleet.
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Carniflex
Caldari
Schmoo Manufacturing Inc.
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Posted - 2009.03.05 09:17:00 -
[5]
Many 50+ mil SP zerozero pilots can drive carrier and many have personal one to haul their arse around. Not many go thru trouble of going for dread as it is not so 'useful' in day to day zerozero life.
Carriers are useful and more universal ships - however as pointed out above one wants dread to do the 'territorial dance'.
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Foulque
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Posted - 2009.03.05 09:20:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Foulque on 05/03/2009 09:20:51
Originally by: Jack Bombardier
The only reason I can think of is that dreads can take on battleships and other capital ships and Carriers are only really effective against cruisers and frigates.
Wait...... you're a carrier pilot and you actually typed that? 
________
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TimMc
Gallente
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2009.03.05 09:23:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Foulque
Edited by: Foulque on 05/03/2009 09:20:51
Originally by: Jack Bombardier
The only reason I can think of is that dreads can take on battleships and other capital ships and Carriers are only really effective against cruisers and frigates.
Wait...... you're a carrier pilot and you actually typed that?
hahaha. Dreads can only POS, and sometimes other capitals. Carriers are nice anti-battleship, and with how long it takes to lock I doubt you will fight much else. Easier to assign fighters anyway than lock people.
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Jack Bombardier
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Posted - 2009.03.05 09:35:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Foulque
Wait...... you're a carrier pilot and you actually typed that?
All I ever get to do is assign fighters, move around rigged battleships and remote repair.
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DeadDuck
Amarr
Amarr Border Defense Consortium
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.05 10:01:00 -
[9]
Dreads are the bread and butter for an alliance with 0.0 ambitions. They win/loose the wars. Carriers even if more flexible are not decisive. In general fleet fights Carriers are more useful but again they will not be decisive and they will be extremely vulnerable to a well coordinated fire power from a sniper fleet. Just my 2 cents thought.
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God is my Wingman |
Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.03.05 10:21:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Foulque
Edited by: Foulque on 05/03/2009 09:20:51
Originally by: Jack Bombardier
The only reason I can think of is that dreads can take on battleships and other capital ships and Carriers are only really effective against cruisers and frigates.
Wait...... you bought a carrier pilot and you actually typed that?
Fixed.
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Jack Bombardier
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Posted - 2009.03.05 11:07:00 -
[11]
Do you think the carriers unusually small cargo space can have something to do with it's low status? I mean a Carrier is supposed to be several times larger than a station and still it has a mere 13.500m¦ of storage space. Barely enough to fit the fuel required to jump too and from a remote battlefield.
At the same time the maintenance bay although looking large at first at a million cubic meters it can only store assembled ships which means you can fit about 2 battleships in there. For a logistic ship it can't really carry a lot of equipment too and from the battlefield. The ability to hold several battleships like maybe 10 and an increase in cargo space might help improve it's role.
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Psi Draconis
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Posted - 2009.03.05 11:14:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Jack Bombardier
I'm a Carrier pilot myself and I'm seeing this more and more "Dreads > Carrier" whenever we're going to war to a point where one starts to feel down right unappreciated. The only reason I can think of is that dreads can take on battleships and other capital ships and Carriers are only really effective against cruisers and frigates.
Does anyone else have an input?
Maxed out droneskills, drone upgrades, T2 gardes. The damage in POS siege is good. Motherships of course even better.
But why you want to have carrier? Because you want to fly your fitted ships to quiet lowsec system and put them into carrier ship bay and jump them to zero zero at your home.
Of course you can use force recon to haul mods and ask others to produce your ships or haul them, but usually things are easier when you do it by yourself.
Dreadnought is better killing POS, and killing capital ships.
You shouldn't really compare these two ship classes. Carrier is remote repping and fleet support ship while dreadnought is the one who deals the damage.
And carriers sure do kill battleships.
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2009.03.05 11:15:00 -
[13]
Carriers are much smaller than stations.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.05 11:18:00 -
[14]
So you are a carrier pilot, but havent ever seen a carrier? They are far smaller than stations.
Their primary role is repping others, it does do that great. Additionally it can also take quite some interdictors to the destination for example, and it does do decent dps.
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Originally by: Neth'Rae
Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Jack Bombardier
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Posted - 2009.03.05 11:32:00 -
[15]
I read somewhere that Carriers are supposed to be much larger than a station and titans even bigger than that but for stability issues CCP rendered them many times smaller than they are supposed to be. Apparently that applies to a lot of ships which explains why a Megathron is half the size of a Thanatos yet the Thanatos maintenance bay alone can fit 2 megathrons (short of 26.000 m¦ out of a total of 1 million)
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Zaerlorth Maelkor
The Maverick Navy
Southern Cross Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.05 11:36:00 -
[16]
woot? Carriers much larger than stations? Are you drunk? Carriers can dock in stations. How does that figure?
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I should really get a sig. |
Jack Bombardier
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Posted - 2009.03.05 11:39:00 -
[17]
A giant secure container is 3000m¦ big and can store 3900m¦
Maybe they made the whole station out of the same material.
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kyrv
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Posted - 2009.03.05 11:54:00 -
[18]
Because dreads make cool noises 
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Jack Bombardier
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Posted - 2009.03.05 11:57:00 -
[19]
Ach but zi Moroes looks like a shoe!
I get the whole dread aspect of big ships with big guns but I am much more interested in logistics. I just wish the corps where as interested in having logistics.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.05 11:58:00 -
[20]
They are intrested in carriers...
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Originally by: Neth'Rae
Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Jack Bombardier
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Posted - 2009.03.05 12:06:00 -
[21]
I'm a master Carrier pilot yet they asked if I would be willing to train for a dread because Dread > Carrier. I have spent over 2 years on Carrier skills and that's what I get.
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.05 12:12:00 -
[22]
Did you happen to ebay your char?
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Originally by: Neth'Rae
Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Jack Bombardier
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Posted - 2009.03.05 12:15:00 -
[23]
No. I understand that eve's forum community does everything with the claws out but can we stick to the topic at hand?
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Furb Killer
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.05 12:18:00 -
[24]
Carriers dont need a boost, corporations want carriers, carriers are fine
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Originally by: Neth'Rae
Military experts are calling this a troll.
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Jack Bombardier
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Posted - 2009.03.05 12:22:00 -
[25]
That's not the message I get from my current corporation. That's why I made the thread.
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Lilith Krell
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Posted - 2009.03.05 12:26:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Jack Bombardier
...I'm a master Carrier pilot...
But at least you are very modest about it  Last week you were a 'master hulk pilot' too, you do have a very high opinion of yourself don't you?
If you are a 'master Carrier pilot' then surely you know everything there is to know and don't need our lowely opinions on the subject...
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Burn Mac
Minmatar
The Tuskers
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Posted - 2009.03.05 12:33:00 -
[27]
Cause its all about the DPS
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H Lecter
Gallente
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2009.03.05 12:33:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Jack Bombardier
That's not the message I get from my current corporation. That's why I made the thread.
Then just find a new corp that needs a carrier pilot. Oh sorry, 'master' carrier pilot.
Originally by: Rells
First of all, I wouldn't give you the sweat off my balls.
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Jack Bombardier
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Posted - 2009.03.05 12:42:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Jack Bombardier on 05/03/2009 12:43:35
Originally by: Lilith Krell
But at least you are very modest about it Last week you were a 'master hulk pilot' too, you do have a very high opinion of yourself don't you?
If you are a 'master Carrier pilot' then surely you know everything there is to know and don't need our lowely opinions on the subject...
I am sorry about the formulation. It sounds pompous but I couldn't think of any other way to word it when you have all related skills maxed. Meanwhile "mastering" mining including all important drone skills take what? 9 million SP?
Originally by: H Lecter
Then just find a new corp that needs a carrier pilot. Oh sorry, 'master' carrier pilot.
I have been tempted but this corp is advancing so fast that it would probably benefit me a lot more to stay in as one of the early cap pilots and maybe it lands me some benefits in the future.
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H Lecter
Gallente
The Black Rabbits
The Gurlstas Associates
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Posted - 2009.03.05 12:48:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Jack Bombardier
I have been tempted but this corp is advancing so fast that it would probably benefit me a lot more to stay in as one of the early cap pilots and maybe it lands me some benefits in the future.
It depends on what you look for. If you are there for fame and recognition then stay and train for dreads. If you wanna have fun and hate flying dreads for some reason then find another one.
Originally by: Rells
First of all, I wouldn't give you the sweat off my balls.
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Jack Bombardier
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Posted - 2009.03.05 12:50:00 -
[31]
I'm looking for fame and recognition but in a Carrier. I don't aspire to ever pilot a Titan. I could fly one if I increased cap ships from 4 to 5 but I am more interested in a possible mothership one day.
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Black Legion.
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Posted - 2009.03.05 12:50:00 -
[32]
Successful troll is successful.
-
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Lilith Krell
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Posted - 2009.03.05 12:53:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Misanth
Successful troll is successful.
Indeed, so many fish here that bite his trollmeat baited hook 
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Jack Bombardier
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Posted - 2009.03.05 12:56:00 -
[34]
and this is where the bull**** starts. On these forums people put so much effort into calling people trolls whenever they ask questions. As if they only ask the questions out of spite. I wouldn't be surprised if that never happened in the first place. It just seems that around here, asking questions in support forums is a crime. You're not supposed to have questions you just have to know it from the start.
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Black Legion.
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Posted - 2009.03.05 12:58:00 -
[35]
Give it up man, you already made it alot further than most.
-
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Lilith Krell
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Posted - 2009.03.05 13:13:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Jack Bombardier
and this is where the bull**** starts. On these forums people put so much effort into calling people trolls whenever they ask questions. As if they only ask the questions out of spite. I wouldn't be surprised if that never happened in the first place. It just seems that around here, asking questions in support forums is a crime. You're not supposed to have questions you just have to know it from the start.
No-one would have a probelm with you asking questions if you actually had any kind of humility instead coming out with rubbish like "I'm a master carrier pilot blah blah" or "Megathron is rubbish cause I can't hit frigs with large hybrids and poor gunnnery skills so I'll just use noob missile spam to feel better about myself blah blah".
You ask a lot of noobish and repetative/troll-like questions whilst trying to maintain that you are some kind of uber veteran/corp hero, all your threads do is incite repetative arguments. Every week the same "what do people think about X ship/module, I can't think for myself or be bothered to research/try anything out myself but I'm super-uber, honestly"...
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Jack Bombardier
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Posted - 2009.03.05 13:27:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Jack Bombardier on 05/03/2009 13:28:30
I'm good at what I do. One thing at a time. Meanwhile the hulk was only ever brought up to point out why I didn't need to do missions. I was asking for advice on a BS and people keept giving me their top ten tips on how to solo missions.
My Eve career goes like this:
Mining
Carrier
today
I don't have any gunnery skills on my main or other skills that where not needed to get to where it is today. I have gallente battleship 5 but I don't actually pilot one. I just got the skill on the way to the Carrier. I don't even have a missile *category* on my main. I just have experience in those two things. I mined til I could fly a Carrier decently and then I bought one and started using it.
I know "master" doesn't sound very humble but if anyone can offer suggestions on how else to phrase that you have all related skills on max then I'm open for suggestions. I have never meant to brag about anything. I just look for answers to questions, one topic at a time as I find something in eve I wish to enquire about.
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Carniflex
Caldari
Schmoo Manufacturing Inc.
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Posted - 2009.03.05 13:35:00 -
[38]
Well the answer was that carriers are useful and more universal than dreads. However universality is not what FC is looking for when he needs to do one very specific task - kill a POS. That is why you see them asking for more dreads - bcos he already has enough carriers for support. If you can't fly dread I do not think you would be turned down from POS siege if you turn up in carrier and know how to use it.
Does not mean you are not valued - as far as I have seen every pilot counts out there. Everyone - even if it's nublet with 1 mil SP and Griffin. Double so for someone who is able and willing to field a carrier.
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Heikki
Gallente
Wreckless Abandon
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Posted - 2009.03.05 14:10:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Jack Bombardier
"Dreads > Carrier"
The message is not intended to signify that Carrier pilot sucks.
It tells that FC intends to do lot of damage (POS, other capitals), and those that own both Carrier and Dread should bring DPS this time.
The same FC very likely knows that there will be enough carriers still (from single capital pilots) to deal with remote repping primaries.
Or in other words, for a POS fleet:
100 dreads is better than 100 carriers, but worse than 95 dreads and 5 carriers.
-Lasse
with carrier for hauling and dread for ceptor hunting
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Malcanis
R.E.C.O.N.
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.03.05 14:48:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Jack Bombardier
Edited by: Jack Bombardier on 05/03/2009 13:28:30
I'm good at what I do. One thing at a time. Meanwhile the hulk was only ever brought up to point out why I didn't need to do missions. I was asking for advice on a BS and people keept giving me their top ten tips on how to solo missions.
My Eve career goes like this:
Mining
Carrier
today
I don't have any gunnery skills on my main or other skills that where not needed to get to where it is today. I have gallente battleship 5 but I don't actually pilot one. I just got the skill on the way to the Carrier. I don't even have a missile *category* on my main. I just have experience in those two things. I mined til I could fly a Carrier decently and then I bought one and started using it.
I know "master" doesn't sound very humble but if anyone can offer suggestions on how else to phrase that you have all related skills on max then I'm open for suggestions. I have never meant to brag about anything. I just look for answers to questions, one topic at a time as I find something in eve I wish to enquire about.
If you are genuinely maxed out on carriers, then training for dreads sounds like a logical next step.
Having said that, it would be a very unusual FC who turned down an extra carrier for his fleet when expecting a major battle
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Jack Bombardier
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Posted - 2009.03.05 14:54:00 -
[41]
Would it really be the next step?
Training for a Dread would no doubt be another 2 years. And I don't even want to fly one. Meanwhile if we have an extra whole dread ship to spare wouldn't it be better off with someone who would fly it into battle and I can use the Carrier?
To me Dreads and Carriers branch off into different directions. Either you master one or the other capital ship.
The Carrier requires a massive investment into drone skills and repair skills while the dread goes into gunnery skills at an equal expense but in a different direction.
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Marcus Druallis
Quantum Industries
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.05 15:02:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Jack Bombardier
Would it really be the next step?
Training for a Dread would no doubt be another 2 years. And I don't even want to fly one. Meanwhile if we have an extra whole dread ship to spare wouldn't it be better off with someone who would fly it into battle and I can use the Carrier?
To me Dreads and Carriers branch off into different directions. Either you master one or the other capital ship.
The Carrier requires a massive investment into drone skills and repair skills while the dread goes into gunnery skills at an equal expense but in a different direction.
2 years? You should have everything pretty much for the Moros trained except for the skill itself, XL guns, gunnery supports and Seige Mod skill. That is not 2 years.
--
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Jack Bombardier
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Posted - 2009.03.05 15:21:00 -
[43]
I did some checking with evemon and EFT. I could fly a well fitted moroes in 65 days and fly it very well in 329 days. Certainly not 2 years but 2 years was a very rough estimate by me too.
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Artemis Rose
Sileo In Pacis
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Posted - 2009.03.05 15:24:00 -
[44]
If they are truly pressuring you to get a Dread because carriers are "useless" in their eyes, its time for a new corp. Nobody is just going to use an all dreadnought fleet, even if they plan on blowing up every POS and capital ship on TQ.
Its more likely to be a helpful suggestion, since if you are a pro carrier pilot, the training involved to pick up a Dread should be a very short.
***
Currently Playing: Trolls from Outer Space
Current Equipment: VISAcard chain mail, +2 Amulet of Epic Whine, Self Banstick +2
WTB: +666 E-peen killboard stats |
Molten Steel
Lone Star Joint Venture
Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.03.05 15:35:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Molten Steel on 05/03/2009 15:36:26
Edited by: Molten Steel on 05/03/2009 15:35:02
I got no problem with carriers they do their work as support. If u like them and can fly one you should stick to that. :)
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Jack Bombardier
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Posted - 2009.03.05 15:41:00 -
[46]
I'm probably making too big of a deal of this. A couple of months ago when I finished my last Carrier skill I asked in corp chat if they had any suggestion what to level next as I had run out of skills to level. Instantly some 3 people went "Dread" Which stung in my eyes a bit since they all knew I was a Carrier pilot and it was like asking me to throw away a lot or at least a majority of that training and start on dread instead.
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Traska Gannel
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Posted - 2009.03.05 16:02:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Jack Bombardier
I'm probably making too big of a deal of this. A couple of months ago when I finished my last Carrier skill I asked in corp chat if they had any suggestion what to level next as I had run out of skills to level. Instantly some 3 people went "Dread" Which stung in my eyes a bit since they all knew I was a Carrier pilot and it was like asking me to throw away a lot or at least a majority of that training and start on dread instead.
Actually, I think of EVE as a game of flexibility. Any trained skill I am not currently using is not a waste, it is not thrown away, it is an opportunity since it lets you and the FC choose the best role to fill in any particular engagement. (Not that I have any experience in PVP yet :) ). This is one of the advantages of EVE compared to most other MMO's - in EVE you are not constrained to a "class" but can learn to effectively pilot any ship. In your case, the initial skills required to train for a dread are modest. Once you can fly one, an FC with a particular goal in mind can decide whether they need an excellent carrier pilot or a good dread pilot for any specific engagement.
In the end it is all up to you - flying a dread can be looked at as an interesting opportunity - it could even turn out to be more fun than flying your carrier. You already have most of the support skills in place. It could give you the opportunity to contribute to any given engagement in the most effective way available. Or you could insist that you are a carrier pilot only - in a world which imposes no such restrictions - and then you will still contribute but perhaps not in the most optimal way for the corporation goals in a specific engagement. I doubt that any FC would turn away a skilled carrier pilot but if the fleet already has a solid carrier support element then another carrier would contribute less than another dread might.
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Saaya Illirie
Caldari
Core Element
Blackguard Coalition
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Posted - 2009.03.05 17:36:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Jack Bombardier
That's not the message I get from my current corporation. That's why I made the thread.
If your corp doesn't appreciate you, quit it. It's really that simple, don't deal with morons that don't appreciate a cap pilot when they get one. There are plenty of other corps in 0.0 that actually need the services of a carrier to jump their stuff to and from places like Stain or Curse etc.
As for the ship rendering size, yes the ship size comparison chart leads you to believe that the size comparison in game is askew, but as with all games what is ingame is what is law.
As for the Dreadnought vs. Carrier comparison, the answer is twofold. Most importantly, dreadnought pilots are harder to find than carrier pilots. Everyone and their mother wants to fly a ship with awesome drones that can EFT amazing dps, so they train for it, then realize they have a completely different job. Dreadnoughts, on the other hand, are the bread and butter of 0.0 warfare, the more you have the more POS you can kill in a day, the bigger your e-peen becomes. As a carrier pilot your use is pretty much limited to fighting from stations or sitting in POS's assigning fighters; as a dreadnought pilot you have the tactical awesomeness of destroying big things. Plus, carriers tend to be more expensive than dreads, and less functional except one time a week when someone was too lazy to buy a battleship in 0.0.
Suffer not the insufferable to live. |
Fat Uncle
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Posted - 2009.03.05 18:27:00 -
[49]
Carriers are fun for hotdropping.
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Grista
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Posted - 2009.03.05 18:51:00 -
[50]
Dreads have two uses - Kill POS and Kill other capital ships. If your alliance is in the process of attacking or defending conquerable space, you will almost always need dreads more than carriers. The reason is simple - carriers have uses outside of these two things.
Even though the logistics capability of carriers was nerfed severely (2 weeks after I started training a carrier alt on a 6 month for $50 power of two plan), they can still do some basic things like move fuel for a personal POS and transport valuable items between 0.0 and empire. As long as the volume doesn't exceed 15K m3 give or take, they are the best jump-capable ships for this. They are also good at moving assembled ships with their 100K m3 Ship Maintenance Bay. This is not great for moving around BC and BS hulls, but for importing/exporting anything Cruiser sized or smaller they are wonderful.
You can also assign fighters to an alt and rat very effectively and quickly in anything that can tank rat damage. While you can technically move quite a bit of crap in a cargo-expanded Dread, it's not a significant amount larger than a carrier. To sum up, you can use a carrier to make isk.
For this reason, most people who pay for they own capital ships will train for and buy a carrier first, then use that to make the isk for their dread skillbooks, hull, and fittings. Inevitably, some people get bored with EVE at this point and quit, meaning there will almost always be more carrier pilots than dread pilots.
Still, carriers are very important to capital fleets. They are the only effective way to repair POS shields and POS modules that have been reinforced and incapacitated. Carriers are absolutely required to protect dreads and others capitals from something as insignificant as a 30 man HAC gang. They are also great for remote repping Battleships in fleet fights, although they area quite vulnerable to sub-capitals themselves in high lag which impacts their ability to rep each other. Even 50 Battleships can kill a carrier very quickly, regardless of tank. A few dozen fighters, usually assigned to smaller ships, can easily turn the tide of an otherwise evenly matched fleet fight.
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Trader20
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Posted - 2009.03.06 02:20:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Trader20 on 06/03/2009 02:21:31
Dreads = DPS
Carrier = Support
Dread + Carrier = Win
Edit: What type of carrier/dread are u training for?
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Warrio
Southern Cross Incorporated
Dara Cothrom
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Posted - 2009.03.06 03:16:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Jack Bombardier
Carriers are only really effective against cruisers and frigates.
Oh jesus.
sXe |
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
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Posted - 2009.03.06 05:43:00 -
[53]
Think of it this way:
Remote repping, in terms of usefulness, increases as the number of pilots goes up, up to a certain point. Beyond this point (assuming even sized fleets on both sides) the value of remote repping starts to drop very quickly. The DPS fielded is just too great to be dealt with by remote reppers and / or the reaction time of carrier pilots is not enough for enough of them to get a lock on the target before it dies.
There's no such thing as too much DPS. There is no point of diminishing return for DPS heavy ships (short of node limits of course but they don't count :P )
(Warning, the following numbers were pulled directly from my ass, and are not meant to be taken literally)
If you field a capital fleet of 10, having half of them in carriers is viable, because 5 carriers to a side means the fleets should be small enough that the RR of the carriers really comes into play. Increase the cap fleet to, say, 100 however, and you're still only really going to need 5 carriers, because more then that and you're hitting the point of diminishing returns. Odds are, in a fleet of a hundred cap pilots, there's going to be at LEAST 5 people who can field a carrier but not a dread, so you're going to want to pressure people into dreads.
Also a point worth considering:
A carrier may be able to do some insane repping, but it only fields the rough DPS of a battleship (comparing sentries to a BS with longer range guns, and fighters to a close range setup)
If you want your carrier to really make a difference, go join a smaller corp/alliance. Maybe one in NPC sov areas, where dreads don't have much use. |
Revoluti0nx
Invicta.
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Posted - 2009.03.06 06:33:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Revoluti0nx on 06/03/2009 06:33:19
So much to flame.
I don't even know where to start.
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Graalum
Di-Tron Heavy Industries
Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.06 07:23:00 -
[55]
there are times for carriers and times for dread, you shoudl be able to fly both.
here is my advice: do your corp a favor and quit. Judging by your posting in this thread, i don't think you are much of a contributor.
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Thorian Baalnorn
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Posted - 2009.03.06 07:59:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Jack Bombardier
Originally by: H Lecter
Then just find a new corp that needs a carrier pilot. Oh sorry, 'master' carrier pilot.
I have been tempted but this corp is advancing so fast that it would probably benefit me a lot more to stay in as one of the early cap pilots and maybe it lands me some benefits in the future.
I laughed when i read this.The way your talking your corp dont appreciate you or your skills now, but you have that hope you might get some benefits later. Personally i think i rather be in a corp that is going somewhere slowly and be apprecitated for my abilities then be in a corp that is going somewhere fast and feel like a second rate pilot.
Carriers are good support ships that can be used in a varity of engagements but again they are support. And its always the support that is underappreciated. Using your anology: Your basically the medic for a platoon of Special Force Soldiers. You may help keep them alive to do their jobs but they still get the credit and you walk away with only the satsification of knowing you helped keep them alive so they could do their job.
All the corps i know appreciate carrier pilots btw.
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fkingfurious
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Posted - 2009.03.06 12:15:00 -
[57]
The answer is very simple.
Everyman and his dog flies a Carrier. Even carebears with no PvP intentions somehow end up with Carriers sat in their hangers gathering dust.
Theyre a very TACTICAL ship, useful in a variety of roles, and if you know what you're doing with a Triage module the difference they can make in small scale (read sub 100 man) fleet fights cannot be underestimated.
HOWEVER, no alliance with intentions of controlling space will ever get anywhere without Dreadnoughts. It's that simple. In a POS Siege which, when it's all said and done is all that 0.0 territory wars boil down to, the side with the most Dreadnoughts wins. Once a Dreadnought goes into Siege Mode it can no longer be remote repped or affected by any other external factors. Your Carrier becomes almost completely irrelevant. The Dreadnoughts will start popping one after another, on both sides of the engagement, and the fleet that has enough Dreads to achieve its aim is the fleet that will win. There is nothing that anyone who isn't in a Dreadnought can do to have a major influence on the outcome once 2 opposing Dread fleets go into Siege Mode.
And therein lies the crux of the problem.
People are unwilling to fly a 2bn isk ship into a siege that will live or die on the whim of the opposing FC. You hit the Siege Mod and you might as well go afk for 10 minutes, cos from that point on the fate of your ship is out of your hands. So everyone flies Carriers because theyre cheaper and don't require you to surrender control of your ship for 10 minutes at a time, but they then delude themselves into thinking that they're as valuable in their Carrier as the guy next to them in the Dreadnought.
You're not.
So your Corp will keep telling you to train for a Dreadnought because, as a Carrier pilot, you already have most of the pre-reqs. The only reason for refusing to train for one, particularly if you've "Mastered" (lol) Carriers like you claim, is because you're a *****.
Is that enough input?
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Jack Bombardier
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Posted - 2009.03.06 13:14:00 -
[58]
In my own experience and that gathered from other Carrier pilots one should never use a Triage module on a Carrier as the loss in mobility for a Carrier in a dangerous situation will most certainly be fatal.
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Carniflex
Caldari
Schmoo Manufacturing Inc.
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Posted - 2009.03.06 14:12:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Jack Bombardier
In my own experience and that gathered from other Carrier pilots one should never use a Triage module on a Carrier as the loss in mobility for a Carrier in a dangerous situation will most certainly be fatal.
Yes. But dreads need to use siege mode to do anything. Without it their damage output is under the sniper BS one. They also cost 2x over carrier. So understandably dread pilots are in higher demand in situations where dreads are needed than carrier pilots.
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Captain Pompous
Is Right Even When He's Wrong So Deal With It
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Posted - 2009.03.06 14:12:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Jack Bombardier
It sounds pompous
Wrong on the first count 
Well, actually, it is rather pompous, but not Pompous, if you catch my drift!
Yes, my name is Pompous. Yes, this has been designed for maximum deliberate effect. Sweet disclaimer eh |
Jack Bombardier
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Posted - 2009.03.06 14:41:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Captain Pompous
leads one to wonder exactly what it is you're good at, after making such gems as "Carriers are only really effective against cruisers and frigates". 
That was poorly worded on my part. What I mean is that you can fit a dread to take care of battleships and it will be popping them like a vagabond pops frigates but the Carrier is not on the front line taking on battleships like the dreads do but instead in the back assigning fighters and using drones to easaly deal with the smaller ships that come near.
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Captain Pompous
Is Right Even When He's Wrong So Deal With It
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Posted - 2009.03.06 15:00:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Jack Bombardier
Originally by: Captain Pompous
leads one to wonder exactly what it is you're good at, after making such gems as "Carriers are only really effective against cruisers and frigates".
That was poorly worded on my part. What I mean is that you can fit a dread to take care of battleships and it will be popping them like a vagabond pops frigates but the Carrier is not on the front line taking on battleships like the dreads do but instead in the back assigning fighters and using drones to easaly deal with the smaller ships that come near.
I gotcha 
+rep for humility :)
Yes, my name is Pompous. Yes, this has been designed for maximum deliberate effect. Sweet disclaimer eh |
Janu Hull
Caldari
Terra Incognita
Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.03.06 15:03:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Jack Bombardier
Originally by: Captain Pompous
leads one to wonder exactly what it is you're good at, after making such gems as "Carriers are only really effective against cruisers and frigates".
That was poorly worded on my part. What I mean is that you can fit a dread to take care of battleships and it will be popping them like a vagabond pops frigates but the Carrier is not on the front line taking on battleships like the dreads do but instead in the back assigning fighters and using drones to easaly deal with the smaller ships that come near.
Even with this, you still miss the boat. Fighters are horrible against anything smaller than a battlecruiser, even worse, they're incredibly vulnerable to anything smaller than a battlecruiser.
At best, your only sub-battleship capability is launching hordes of Warrior IIs or Hammerhead IIs and having them assist smaller ships in the fleet. Even with two SB IIs and resolution scripts, you're still looking at 10+ seconds to lock up a frigate, which isn't happening, unless he's feeling brave enough to dare you to assign drones to attack him.
In the event of an emergency, my ego may be used as a floatation device.
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Bentula
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Posted - 2009.03.06 22:11:00 -
[64]
Answer is really simple.
Carriers and dreads do very different things, if your corp needs to take down two dozen hostile pos then being able to fly a carrier wont help them at all.
The ideal cap pilot hauls stuff from empire in a jump freighter in the morning, patches up holes in the pos network with his carrier around noon and helps taking down pos in his dread in the evening.
That doesnt mean being a specialized carrier pilot is a bad thing, you just have to be aware that your alot more limited in supporting your corp. Also i discourage people from specializing to much unless they know exactly where it will lead them, its always a gamble in a everchanging enviroment like eve. And often the ability to choose a different shiptype that is more suited to the task at hand is worth more than training a couple months just to get 2% more damage or something.
P.S.: Another reason is that carriers are a dime a dozen. They are cheap for caps and wellsuited for personal use. Dedicated dreadpilots are rarer, which prolly has something to do with the fact that flying one in your average operation is about as exciting as watching paint dry. Carriers are bad too, but atleast you can use the damn thing to haul stuff to and from empire with it between the fights .
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Slothus Infinitum
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Posted - 2009.03.07 06:13:00 -
[65]
OP is an obvious moran who has never flown a carrier.
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Ceru Nara
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Posted - 2009.03.07 07:23:00 -
[66]
Probably a troll, given threads like this http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1007080. I thought I recognized the name. :P
Anyway, for a real answer, this could just be a simple misunderstanding of the meaning of the dread > carrier thing.
For a specific fleet op, you'll have some sort of list of preferred ships, for example: dread > carrier > bs > light support (perhaps a specification on what kind of bs, like sniper, rr, etc). That list is simply an ordering of which ships are preferred for that op (and for pos killing, you'll probably see something to the effect of the order I listed). It doesn't imply dreads are flat out better than carriers, it means dreads are preferred for this op. On that list, pick whichever ship is highest on the list that you can fly and go.
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Jarvis Marinius
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Posted - 2009.03.07 07:23:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Jarvis Marinius on 07/03/2009 07:24:04
I want a carrier :/
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Jack Bombardier
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Posted - 2009.03.07 07:25:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Slothus Infinitum
moran
Oh the irony is so very delicious. I couldn't possible eat all of it now. I'm going to have to put some in the fridge and save for later.
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Valor Anselmo
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Posted - 2009.03.07 12:34:00 -
[69]
Edited by: Valor Anselmo on 07/03/2009 12:34:19
this whole thread to me sounds like needless debating/whinging. Since this game first powered up im sure people have been arguing about "is X ship better than Y ship".
To still see these questions asked when, clearly, -everything- in this game is situational, then I have no doubt the people asking these questions are just looking for a whinge about something they already know the answer to.
My $0.02
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Valor Anselmo
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Posted - 2009.03.07 12:58:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Valor Anselmo on 07/03/2009 12:59:00
Originally by: Ceru Nara
Probably a troll, given threads like this http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1007080
...and after reading this, laughing hysterically, and wiping a tear away from my eye...I am convinced, Jack, that you are one of these people. Except you have this stigma of feigning about you...are you a noob whos read up (briefly might i add) on some aspects of this game? Or are you someone who stumbled on to Item number: 180334639727 on e-bay?
*steps back in to the shadows*
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Jack Bombardier
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Posted - 2009.03.07 17:14:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Valor Anselmo
Or are you someone who stumbled on to Item number: 180334639727 on e-bay?
Not unless I used a time machine and went ahead in time to march 11 when the action you're talking about ends and then bought the character only to bring it back here again.
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General Trajan
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Posted - 2009.03.07 17:41:00 -
[72]
well for starters you asked your 0.0 corp peeps what to train next 1st. what did you think they would suggest to you next considering where you are now as far as sp goes? come on now seriously!
also, is this gonna be where the buck stops with you for this game? carriers and that's it? you must remember that you are a part of a corp and a corp has many needs. so why only be a one trick pony of sorts? why not skill up for dreads or BS even?
not feeling appreciated in your corp for what you like to do best? well........you already got the concensus on that!
there are so many things that you can do to be usefull to your corp (and yourself) with so many different classes of ships. so i would sit back, get a cold one out tha fridge and consider other options for what you want in this game and were you fit in in the great scheme of things wether it's still in 0.0 mega alliance or low sec yarrin.
my 2 rusty pennies.....er isk!
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fkingfurious
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Posted - 2009.03.07 18:45:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Jack Bombardier
In my own experience and that gathered from other Carrier pilots one should never use a Triage module on a Carrier as the loss in mobility for a Carrier in a dangerous situation will most certainly be fatal.
The loss of mobility is irrelevant tbh.
You're not in a Super Cap so any bog standard warp disrupter is going to stop you running away. Unless you have a Titan on standby to DDD every tackler on the field into oblivion, pretty much the only way a Carrier (or Dread for that matter) will disegage from a fight is if your gang WINS that fight and clears the field.
Being in Triage mode makes you a Logistics Giant and the local tank of a Triage Carrier is nothing to be sneezed at. With a good fit an archon can perma tank 11,000DPS or perma run a pair of Cap Remote Reps which, thanks to the Triage Mod, are now repping 3000 armor every 2.5 seconds. Sure, the risk of getting hotdropped is increased, and if somone lands 5 dreads on your head and drops them straight into Siege Mode you're going to have a very bad day, but thats just a case of risk vs reward in action.
You risk dying in order to make sure that noone else in your gang will.
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Trader20
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Posted - 2009.03.08 01:51:00 -
[74]
Originally by: TimMc
Originally by: Foulque
Edited by: Foulque on 05/03/2009 09:20:51
Originally by: Jack Bombardier
The only reason I can think of is that dreads can take on battleships and other capital ships and Carriers are only really effective against cruisers and frigates.
Wait...... you're a carrier pilot and you actually typed that?
hahaha. Dreads can only POS, and sometimes other capitals. Carriers are nice anti-battleship, and with how long it takes to lock I doubt you will fight much else. Easier to assign fighters anyway than lock people.
With 20 tp and 5 webs on a bs a pheonix can pretty much 1 volley a bs
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Arakidias
IONSTAR
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.08 10:24:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Trader20
Originally by: TimMc
Originally by: Foulque
Edited by: Foulque on 05/03/2009 09:20:51
Originally by: Jack Bombardier
The only reason I can think of is that dreads can take on battleships and other capital ships and Carriers are only really effective against cruisers and frigates.
Wait...... you're a carrier pilot and you actually typed that?
hahaha. Dreads can only POS, and sometimes other capitals. Carriers are nice anti-battleship, and with how long it takes to lock I doubt you will fight much else. Easier to assign fighters anyway than lock people.
With 20 tp and 5 webs on a bs a pheonix can pretty much 1 volley a bs
Until someone accidentally bumps said BS and you go down to 150 damage per missile again :p
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Walker Bulldog
Minmatar
VIRTUAL LIFE VANGUARD
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Posted - 2009.03.08 15:13:00 -
[76]
I killed a drake with citadel torps once (in a Naglfar). True story. We reinforced a POS and were sitting around waiting for siege to end. The drake popped out of shield, the dreads unloaded, he ducked back into shield and the torps followed him in.
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Zeba
Minmatar
Honourable East India Trading Company
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Posted - 2009.03.08 15:31:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Jack Bombardier
I'm good at what I do..
Apparently so as we are on page three now.
Yay! Got meh sig back! ♥ Weatherman |
Solid Prefekt
Minmatar
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.03.08 16:47:00 -
[78]
The dread is a bigger advantage for your alliance, A carrier for yourself. So get the carrier first. Once you have that then getting the dread is not all that far off.
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vostok
Minmatar
Shadow of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2009.03.08 20:11:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Jack Bombardier
I'm a Carrier pilot myself and I'm seeing this more and more "Dreads > Carrier" whenever we're going to war to a point where one starts to feel down right unappreciated. The only reason I can think of is that dreads can take on battleships and other capital ships and Carriers are only really effective against cruisers and frigates.
Does anyone else have an input?
First things first, this has probably been said many times but Carriers are good for taking out pretty much anything subcapital and are useful for remote rep in capital fights.
Dreads kill capitals and pos's.
People always want more dreads because another dread on the field is always useful, but the number of carriers that you field can be dependant on what else is flying with you. This wouldn't really have happened but the fact is everybody and their mum are now carrier pilots because nobody really wants to sit around for hours reloading ammo to take down a pos.
Now going back to the strengths of a carrier, they are very good at supporting a gang but they are a real pain to move which then limits the main strength of a gang. For defending a single system, brilliant, they will increase the defences and survivability of gatecamps no end and also help replace lost ships with their maint. bay.
The obvious solution is to have people in the gangs with cyno gens, but then ofc, the person who sets that off is then stuck there for a long time, if say whatever you were chasing then decide to just up and leave. Also has a tendency to escalate situations, because everybody wants to be on the km for a carrier, and people don't care so much about a collection of BS/BC/hac/cs.
- Adaptation is not an excuse for lack of ballance! -
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Xavier Sunder
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Posted - 2009.03.08 20:46:00 -
[80]
Originally by: fkingfurious
People are unwilling to fly a 2bn isk ship into a siege that will live or die on the whim of the opposing FC. You hit the Siege Mod and you might as well go afk for 10 minutes, cos from that point on the fate of your ship is out of your hands. So everyone flies Carriers because theyre cheaper and don't require you to surrender control of your ship for 10 minutes at a time, but they then delude themselves into thinking that they're as valuable in their Carrier as the guy next to them in the Dreadnought.
Most of the points have been made but I'll requote that. Dreads are insanely expensive and really only good for killing other dreads/caps and POS. They're kind of like nuclear weapons. Countries have them because other countries have them and the only way to "fight" them is with more nuclear weapons.
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Jason Marshall
Gallente
Hammer Of Light
Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.03.08 21:00:00 -
[81]
GOWatch thisMOVIE.
And learn how to use triage mode ;)
Tacky Lensflares in sigs ftw
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