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EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.12 23:11:00 -
[91]
Edited by: EdFromHumanResources on 12/03/2009 23:12:39
I don't want to take down mission runners I am just pointing out the hypocrisy in their statements and accusations as to whats market breaking and this big scary inflation no can show me anywhere but timecards.
The extreme danger of this new content makes it the only pve in this game I have found even remotely entertaining, taking away the reward for anything but a t3 producer is ignorant to say to the least.
-------------------------------------------------
Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.03.12 23:16:00 -
[92]
 Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
The extreme danger of this new content makes it the only pve in this game I have found even remotely entertaining, taking away the reward for anything but a t3 producer is ignorant to say to the least.
Right... because YOU selling TO the T3 producer the loot/salvage is... how exactly worse than selling the Sleeper trade goods to the NPC buy orders ?
Oh, right, it's not worse, it's BETTER, since it will PAY MORE.
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.12 23:20:00 -
[93]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Quote:
1. The time barrier to entry is high
I question that.
20 minutes with a probe and you will find a wormhole if you are any good.
That is half of a level 4 mission.
Quote:
I'll rather have that people get the loot rather than getting blown up. Insurance is STILL an ISK faucet.
That is the problem with insurance, not WH space.
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Anonymously Toasting
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Posted - 2009.03.12 23:24:00 -
[94]
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
I don't want to take down mission runners I am just pointing out the hypocrisy in their statements and accusations as to whats market breaking and this big scary inflation no can show me anywhere but timecards.
So basically, we agree?
I think these new "bounties" with sleeper rats are perfectly fine.
Isk faucets are also fine because not everyone wants to be involved with the player driven market (in fact they're needed when isk sinks are instituted ie anything pvp related).
Missions are skewed but should not bear the brunt of "balancing" the issue on their own.
About missioners being hypocrits. More whiney than anything else with a touch of "hold my hand while i do this". I dont think that's a problem of missioning, carebear'ism or pve. I think that's a person problem, people who really ***** about the mission system not getting improvments (lpstores/lvl 5 agents are old - and making them easier is a buff to isk/hr, but a nerf to missions as they were made booooooring) are those who JUST mission, otherwise they wouldn't care. And really (imo) playing eve to only do one minor little thing in it is a pretty fail way to play. It's really not much different than ppl taking a pvp only perspective of the entire game. It really is a shame because wormholes are BADDASS.
Am I pumped for epic missions yes EVEN if they had an isk/hr of 0/hr.
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EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 23:28:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
The extreme danger of this new content makes it the only pve in this game I have found even remotely entertaining, taking away the reward for anything but a t3 producer is ignorant to say to the least.
Right... because YOU selling TO the T3 producer the loot/salvage is... how exactly worse than selling the Sleeper trade goods to the NPC buy orders ?
Oh, right, it's not worse, it's BETTER, since it will PAY MORE.
Ya anonymous basically. This here is the sort of **** im poking at. People who honestly believe this.
Hey Akita name a T3 producer I can sell to please, right now. Now name a few dozen more because they are going to have to eat the loot of pretty much everyone in the game if your hairbrained ideas were put in the game, driving the loot prices down so low it wouldnt be worth the time it took to scan down the initial wormhole.
-------------------------------------------------
Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
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Steve Thomas
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Posted - 2009.03.12 23:37:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Feng Schui
CCP wants the T3 ships to not drop below a certain price (hence the NPC buy orders).. that being said, IMO, let the market forces do their damn jobs and get rid of the buy orders.
The items in question are not used to build t3 ships.
However your brain dead knee jerk reply is noted and duely laughed at.
*.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.*
Stop freaking worrying about why things the developerd did 5 years and more ago no longer make sence. |
Dextonia
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Posted - 2009.03.12 23:40:00 -
[97]
Originally by: LaVista Vista
Edited by: LaVista Vista on 12/03/2009 17:27:44
Originally by: Dextonia
I'm gonna try to not be rude or anything but how did you get on Csm?
Seems your either
1) Not very bright
2) Don't know the first thing about economics
I'm guessing that its number 2 and you just don't realize that it doesn't matter if people get Isk that did not exist in EvE before from bounties or market orders, the effect is the same so why should the market suddenly implode because of 4 new trade goods?
But if you have a hard believing me then just try to remember that DOCTOR Eyj= who works for Ccp has a DOCTORS degree in ECONOMICS, and theres a reason he has a job as the worlds only virtual economist.
You don't seem very bright either, because your post lacks everything but personal attacks.
EDIT: Actually, you made one small point. However it's flawed, as it's misrepresenting to my initial post.
Quote:
it doesn't matter if people get Isk that did not exist in EvE before from bounties or market orders, the effect is the same so why should the market suddenly implode because of 4 new trade goods?
I seriously just fail to see any effect that this makes that's worth making a post about, this is not going to cause any seriouse amount of inflation( if you don't believe me then you can go check out Dr. eyjo's dev blogs and there is probably a youtube video of him explaining why these so could isk faucets don't cause inflation).
This is not gonna stop people from selling and buying stuff from the market.
There is just no way this is going to put any bigger scar on the player-driven market than any other new item/service/feature.
You should really try to atleast make a argument for your statements.
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EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.12 23:41:00 -
[98]
To explain to you people what these items function as since most of you seem to have no idea, they are like tags in a plex except they cannot be turned in with a mix of LP for something. They have one purpose and one purpose only.
-------------------------------------------------
Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.03.12 23:43:00 -
[99]
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Hey Akita name a T3 producer I can sell to please, right now.
Irrelevant.
Quote:
Now name a few dozen more because they are going to have to eat the loot of pretty much everyone in the game
Enough will appear sooner rather than later.
Quote:
if your hairbrained ideas were put in the game, driving the loot prices down so low it wouldnt be worth the time it took to scan down the initial wormhole.
Ok, what's better : NPC tradegoods worth 1 mil plus 3 mil worth of T3 stuff on average (meaning 4 mil), or just double amounts of T3 stuff worth about 30% less (meaning 4.2 mil) ?
And what's better, T3 ships at 500 mil ISK, or T3 ships at 400 mil ISK ?
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Celia Therone
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Posted - 2009.03.12 23:47:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Anonymously Toasting
In wow the high end pve wasn't more lucrative than casual pve.
Of course wearing the high end pve gear meant that you could do the casual pve content several times faster than someone in casual pve gear, thus you earned far more per hour than they did. You could also kill them with almost trivial ease and were much less likely to die yourself. This may now have changed as I haven't played WoW in somewhat over a year.
As to the main point:
From a game design perspective you want to increase rewards as you increase risk. Otherwise most players will gravitate towards the activities that give more reward for less risk.
It's horribly difficult to balance item drops when the value of the items is on the order of a couple of million isk/ship. How do you prevent markets getting flooded, and the reward dropping below established (lower risk) wealth generation methods like mission running and ratting?
Let's take drones - their loot all comes as item drops. What happened? They crashed a significant segment of the mineral market which has messed up risk/reward in mining. Because the mineral market crashed the rewards from drones are much lower than they're supposed to be so, for example, many people avoid drone exploration sites as 'not worth the time'.
Having the sleepers drop isk equivalent allows for much more control over the actual value of killing them.
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Ender2006
APOCALYPSE LEGION
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Posted - 2009.03.12 23:47:00 -
[101]
I have to say, as long as they have balanced the isk/time ratio of the total venture to say the 50-100m/hour range (to represent the increased pvp risk) then I see no problem with the npc controlled isk generation.
People seem to be forgetting that with each person running these wormholes to generate npc isk likely results in one less person running l4 missions. So the differential that might cause inflation is actually rather small and likely cancelled out by lost ships/etc.
Basically I see no problem with this mechanism as long as the rewards are balanced. If they aren't that's a different problem anyway. In general, I like the idea better than bounties anyway since it makes transport an issue.
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Steve Thomas
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Posted - 2009.03.12 23:48:00 -
[102]
Ok lets review
you blow up a NPC ship that is a pirate in Kspace
you get the bounty from killing said pirate
you also get the loot and salvage from killing said pirate that goes into ship /mod rig production or for sale
************************
You blow up a sleeper in Wspace
you get no bounty for killing said Sleeper
the ISK income to the game starts to dry up a bit because the time you spent blowing up said sleeper could have been spent ratting or mission running to make ISK
so the "Tradegoods" droped by the sleepers are items that can be toted back for sale.
overall I would say its a break even at this point. we will see.
*.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.* *.*
Stop freaking worrying about why things the developerd did 5 years and more ago no longer make sence. |
EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 23:51:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Hey Akita name a T3 producer I can sell to please, right now.
Irrelevant.
Quote:
Now name a few dozen more because they are going to have to eat the loot of pretty much everyone in the game
Enough will appear sooner rather than later.
Quote:
if your hairbrained ideas were put in the game, driving the loot prices down so low it wouldnt be worth the time it took to scan down the initial wormhole.
Ok, what's better : NPC tradegoods worth 1 mil plus 3 mil worth of T3 stuff on average (meaning 4 mil), or just double amounts of T3 stuff worth about 30% less (meaning 4.2 mil) ?
And what's better, T3 ships at 500 mil ISK, or T3 ships at 400 mil ISK ?
Ok so your argument is that these buy orders are game breaking and the solution is the somehow force players to pay a set price so we make more in the end......Ya sorry im not seeing any sort of logic there. Do you know what really happens when theres a flood of one item or another into a market? The price goes down, you're either mentally challenged or trolling either way I'm not giving you the dignity of another response unless you make an actual point
-------------------------------------------------
Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
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abraheam
Dirty Denizens
|
Posted - 2009.03.12 23:53:00 -
[104]
I think that if you havent actually partaken in a worm hole operation and seen the risks involved then you should kindly sit down about the rewards involved in it. (Probably most of the people in this thread).
There are RP elements, as well as risk/reward to attempt to balance out. I am hoping they keep T3 kinda rare, and the best way to do that is to offer a substitute rewards for T3 parts in wormholes.
Eve is not a perfect player driven market, and it will never reflect the real world...I think anyone who whines about a few NPC buy orders is going a little over board.
If realism is what we are going for then we can start with not having a preset amount of manufacturing and research slots consistently available...That is the most unrealistic part about the economy of this game in my opinion. They need to add riots, mechanical failures, and any number of other events that would truly effect the economics of this game besides "ISK faucets".
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2009.03.13 00:04:00 -
[105]
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Ok so your argument is that these buy orders are game breaking and the solution is the somehow force players to pay a set price so we make more in the end......Ya sorry im not seeing any sort of logic there. Do you know what really happens when theres a flood of one item or another into a market? The price goes down, you're either mentally challenged or trolling either way I'm not giving you the dignity of another response unless you make an actual point
No, my argument is that those ITEMS are unnecessary, that they shouldn't even have existed in the first place, and that the difference in "Sleeper kill" value could be tweaked by adding more of the T3-relevant stuff into Sleeper loot (even stuff that is needed but RIGHT NOW doesn't drop from Sleepers at all, and can only be obtained from hacking/archeology/gas mining/whatever).
My argument is that decreased T3 prices would mean heavily increased demand, so increasing drop rates *2 would NOT result in a /2 price per item, but less.
My argument is that while this would decrease INDIVIDUAL DROPPED ITEM price, as a whole, the average total value of the proceeds from a Sleeper kill could actually INCREASE, while at the same time making T3 ship prices more affordable.
Win-win situation for all people involved.
Ok, let me put it ANOTHER way.
What if right now, absolutely every last salvage attempt on a (regular) NPC wreck would suddendly yield 10 times more salvaged materials ?
Do you think the price of each individual salvage item would go down by a factor of 10, OR LESS ?
In case you were wondering, it would go down a lot less, since just about everybody would start fully rigging all their PvP ships, even ships you would have never bothered rigging before, like, say, T1 cruisers, or even some T1 frigates. Not just that, but people would actually start stripping down rigs they don't like so much since they're much cheaper to replace. Heck, people will even repackage their ships for transport, since the cost of replacing all rigs would be a pittance compared to the pain of moving all ships individually.
And what happens to the salvagers ?
Well, let's say price drops to about 1/8 of initial value... but they get 10 times more salvage now ! What a surprise, their salvage income actually increases by +25% !
Same story with Sleepers.
You just have to add enough stuff tothem, so that you could actually build T3 JUST from killing (a lot of) Sleepers and nothing else (eventually).
Sure, some of the stuff they drop would be more easily found hacking/analysing/gasmining/whatever, but they'd drop some things that could refine, transform, react or reverse-engineer into all needed components.
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
Anonymously Toasting
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 00:07:00 -
[106]
If you take bounties away from missioners/ratters, my immediate thought would be salvage/rig prices would shoot up. The only reason I can see for adding these bounties to sleeper rats is in the same light. Give the players a predictable income from these and it will help maintain the price of the t3 production chain (underestimating human greed i think ccp is).
With a bounty on the rat I'm more inclined to just sell off my t3 mats to buy orders instead of trying to squeeze every last isk out of it (and fretting over that ruins the game experience for alot of ppl) and forcing producers to pay x amount instead of letting themselves set the limits of what they want to pay (for those not getting it themselves)
Drones are a different example because their loot affected all markets (t1 and t2 production) sleeper loot only affects t3 production so I dont think drones are a good example to be used in this discussion as they had much broader implications to their drops than these new sleepers.
And wow high end pve gear took a huge backset with the invention of the resilience stat (came with BC) and became inferior in pvp (by a significant amount). Some successful wow farming isn't done through npc killing but mat farming (herbs/ores) which is more pvp than pve orientated.
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EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 00:08:00 -
[107]
The flaw I talked about is stated in your very post. You just fail to see it somehow. I will give you a few minutes to look for it.
-------------------------------------------------
Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 00:10:00 -
[108]
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
The flaw I talked about is stated in your very post. You just fail to see it somehow. I will give you a few minutes to look for it.
You THINK you see a flaw, point it out then.
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 00:16:00 -
[109]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
The flaw I talked about is stated in your very post. You just fail to see it somehow. I will give you a few minutes to look for it.
You THINK you see a flaw, point it out then.
As you stated when something is common price goes down, if loot is made very common the price will go way down making it a worthless side of the game. Why on earth it would take a calculated drop(That you added into your "math") when people are always wanting to buy things as cheap as possible is beyond me.
-------------------------------------------------
Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
|
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 00:26:00 -
[110]
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
As you stated when something is common price goes down, if loot is made very common the price will go way down making it a worthless side of the game. Why on earth it would take a calculated drop(That you added into your "math") when people are always wanting to buy things as cheap as possible is beyond me.
I guess you should re-read the examples given more carefully then.
The higher the Sleeper drop rates, and the closer to "complete" the stuff you get from Sleeper kills is for T3 manufacture, the lower the T3 ship prices will get, and the more volume demand for them would skyrocket.
In my proposal, you're taking a drop in price PER ITEM.
You're getting MORE items and also ADDITIONAL items you didn't use to get before.
The drop PER ITEM will be less than the increase in ITEM NUMBERS. Overall, the TOTAL VALUE of a kill increases, even if no sell-to-NPC-buy-order items exist.
It's all about WHAT and HOW MUCH the Sleepers would drop.
And the stuff they drop DOESN'T NEED TO CONTAIN sell-to-NPC-buy-order items in order to achieve this presented situation.
_
Create a character || Fit a ship || Get some ISK |
The Slayer
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 00:40:00 -
[111]
Edited by: The Slayer on 13/03/2009 00:40:21
He is saying that sleepers should drop twice as much stuff, which will lower their value by less than half since demand will shoot up at the lower price. It kind of makes sense.
In order to balance this with empire missioning I suggest making missions 50x more difficult, but increasing the isk rewards 50x as well. This will make is so that mission runners need a gang of 10-15 rrbs like we need just now to kill sleepers. Thanks.
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EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 00:44:00 -
[112]
The very fact you believe that drivel means you have no clue what you're talking about Akita
-------------------------------------------------
Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
|
Venkul Mul
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 00:45:00 -
[113]
I just did a easy encounter
1 BS, 6-8 cruisers, 8 frigates, 2 sentry gund in 3 waves.
I had to leave as another guy entered there, I didn't wanted to check if he was interested in killing me or not.
Net result from the BS, 6 cruisers and 6 frigates: 12 neural network, 12 sleeper data library = 3.000.000
50 minutes to do that.
Compare that to a 800 k BS, 6 100 k cruisers and 6 20k frigates in a normal encounter in K space: 1.520.000
20 minutes at most to kill them.
Direct Isk reward are well balanced in my eyes. Especially as you aren't guaranteed to get them out of the W-system.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
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Posted - 2009.03.13 01:04:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Petyr Baelich
And yes, I realize that inflation in a system is calculated off of every item, not just one market segment. However, if one segment grows at an almost geometric rate, and another is fairly static: inflation exists.
Or one class of items has a static or almost static production and a increasing demand.
Exactly as it is in your examples:
- no new T2 BPO in game, and some of the existing disappearing;
- low production of officer modules, linked to ratting in dangerous zones and not prone to increase at the same rate of population increase.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 01:16:00 -
[115]
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Missions havent been buffed in ages because....oh wait they have. LP market was created, many many missions were altered to make them easier and level 5 missions were added, more agents were added, entire regions of lowsec were added with special little agents of their own.
LP store was and is a nerf. The return from LP is way lower now.
L5 missions, LOL.
Quote:
Now epic mission arcs are being introduced but yet people still claim CCP ignores the mission running crew when they actually know very well the massive part of the population that runs them.
One (1) epic mission arc so far, aimed to new player just out of training. Terrific.
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Venkul Mul
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 01:31:00 -
[116]
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 13/03/2009 01:40:28
Originally by: Akita T
Quote:
if your hairbrained ideas were put in the game, driving the loot prices down so low it wouldnt be worth the time it took to scan down the initial wormhole.
Ok, what's better : NPC tradegoods worth 1 mil plus 3 mil worth of T3 stuff on average (meaning 4 mil), or just double amounts of T3 stuff worth about 30% less (meaning 4.2 mil) ?
And what's better, T3 ships at 500 mil ISK, or T3 ships at 400 mil ISK ?
You are forgetting a very important point: all the T3 salvage is worth 0 isk without someone harvesting the gases.
So the value of T3 salvage will be heavily influenced by the availability of the T3 gases, something that I suspect will never be much available.
Doubling the quantity of salvage without doubling the rate of gas harvesting will probably only half the value of the salvage while at the same time the quantity actually sold will stay the same. (Yes, maybe gas harvesting will result very easy and the gases will flood the market, but I doubt it)
Edit:
It seem I am the last one awake in this thread  . Winning for default of the opposition 
More seriously, the MD aficionados seem really terrified by those buy orders. But no one of you has really argumented well your positions. Plenty of assumption without anything solid to back them up.
You have no clue on the probable isk reward from each ship, on the time needed to do them, on who really will do WH-space.
Sorry but you are making a fuss over nothing for now. And in my opinion WH space need some form of tangible and immediate reward to keep people interested, the 1000 isk for T3 salvage buy orders aren't a reward in any way.
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EdFromHumanResources
Caldari
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 01:42:00 -
[117]
Nah I am still here youre just not saying much I disagree with and this Akita guy is too stupid to see the forest for the trees.
-------------------------------------------------
Everyone hates goonswarm for one reason or another. ... And they promote ***gotism -Zurrar
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Ami Nia
Caldari
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 02:57:00 -
[118]
Edited by: Ami Nia on 13/03/2009 03:20:24
I do not think they will ruin the market.
NPCs selling an item that you can reprocess may influence the mineral market. That is bad and we know it.
NPCs buying an item that can be built would have the same problems.
But NPCs that buy an item that has absolutely no use will have NO influence on the market itself.
Some may argue that this being an isk faucet it represents an isk source and that may imbalance the economy. But that is true for ANY isk source and ANY isk sink.
Consider it from a different perspective: Sleepers do not have bounties. That loot is nothing but the equivalent of a bounty on sleepers. The only difference being an RP consideration. Those isk faucets and the NPC buy orders for them have the same possibility to imbalance anything in EVE that any ordinary NPC Bounty has.
Edit: after re-reaading it feels like I did not make a point (not a new one).
What I do want to underline is that this is not something that can ruin the market. At worse it may have an inflactionary influence on the economy because of the isk source. But this is a question of balancing. If you think EvE's economy has too much isk coming in from sources, than bring that topic forward. And suggest they are toned down (not less sources, but a balanced reduction of the direct isk injection spread over all the sources: reduction of bounties, reduction of agent isk offers, reduction of insurance payout/cost ratio etc.).
The fact that they introduced a few tradable items as isk faucets when they wanted to implement an RP compatible direct isk source for Sleepers is not a problem and will not influence the market. Balancing direct isk injection (or value sources in general) with the drain from isk sinks is a much wider argument and as such shall be treated. If you have problems in seeing it just ask yourself: if Sleepers had bounties instead of this, would my argument still stand? And if you are abot to say Sleepers should have NO bunty and no direct isk source attached, ask to yourself: why should Sleeper isk sourcing be different than that of normal Rats? Is my argument also valid for Rats? For other isk sources?
Military experts call it a Templar, a fighter drone used by Amarr carriers.
-- Sheriff Jones
apochribba
-- Aurora Morgan
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Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 03:37:00 -
[119]
This is one of the best and worst threads.
While I understand people are upset with isk being generated through npc orders lets keep this in perspective. Lets say we remove anything that generates isk; then we have only player trading and isk sinks. Eventually all the isk would disappear and prior to that people would be afraid to spend their isk. That isn't feasible or fun. The issue here is the rate of isk generation not that isk is created at all.
Consider this as a test run with the sleepers. If it's successful it could be implemented with rats and missions rats. The logistics involved in transporting the npc goods to npc buy orders will limit the rate of isk generation. This could be a solution that could be tweaked to deal with the imflation that exists in limited segments of the game.
Originally by: Crawe DeRaven
this thread is obviously going places
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Krathos Morpheus
Gallente
Legion Infernal
Wildly Inappropriate.
|
Posted - 2009.03.13 06:17:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Venkul Mul
Edited by: Venkul Mul on 13/03/2009 01:40:28
Originally by: Akita T
Quote:
if your hairbrained ideas were put in the game, driving the loot prices down so low it wouldnt be worth the time it took to scan down the initial wormhole.
Ok, what's better : NPC tradegoods worth 1 mil plus 3 mil worth of T3 stuff on average (meaning 4 mil), or just double amounts of T3 stuff worth about 30% less (meaning 4.2 mil) ?
And what's better, T3 ships at 500 mil ISK, or T3 ships at 400 mil ISK ?
You are forgetting a very important point: all the T3 salvage is worth 0 isk without someone harvesting the gases.
So the value of T3 salvage will be heavily influenced by the availability of the T3 gases, something that I suspect will never be much available.
Doubling the quantity of salvage without doubling the rate of gas harvesting will probably only half the value of the salvage while at the same time the quantity actually sold will stay the same. (Yes, maybe gas harvesting will result very easy and the gases will flood the market, but I doubt it)
Edit:
It seem I am the last one awake in this thread . Winning for default of the opposition
More seriously, the MD aficionados seem really terrified by those buy orders. But no one of you has really argumented well your positions. Plenty of assumption without anything solid to back them up.
You have no clue on the probable isk reward from each ship, on the time needed to do them, on who really will do WH-space.
Sorry but you are making a fuss over nothing for now. And in my opinion WH space need some form of tangible and immediate reward to keep people interested, the 1000 isk for T3 salvage buy orders aren't a reward in any way.
Originally by: EdFromHumanResources
Nah I am still here youre just not saying much I disagree with and this Akita guy is too stupid to see the forest for the trees.
Thats not true, Akita already pointed to all components neccesary for T3 construction being dropped by the rats. Quote:
No, my argument is that those ITEMS are unnecessary, that they shouldn't even have existed in the first place, and that the difference in "Sleeper kill" value could be tweaked by adding more of the T3-relevant stuff into Sleeper loot (even stuff that is needed but RIGHT NOW doesn't drop from Sleepers at all, and can only be obtained from hacking/archeology/gas mining/whatever).
But this is not good. I like diversity and the rats being just another piece of the puzzle, If you want to remove sources, why not make the rats drop the subsystems? This way people gets more money and everyone will be flying T3 ships. Why not? Why one profession has to be more rewarded than another one? Because EVE is a rich and complex world, and because of this we need systems to accomodate the rewards. You can be sure that what Akita says is true. If his changes would be applied, the sleeper hunters will receive more or equal rewards and T3 will be cheaper. But also nobody would do anything more than kill sleepers, and the other profesions would be worthless again. The wormholes are not only about getting T3 as fast and cheap as possible. Introducing an isk and loot reward, CCP can accomodate the drop rates to get T3 to the prices they intend (in the range of T2) as well as keeping an overall reward enough appealing to avoid players not reaping the wh. If you want to talk about isk faucets you should look for the problem, and if there is any problems there are in faucets wich can be farmed afk and with bots, not in deadly space. Also who thought he was the last to post here today?
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