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Are sleepers a threat to the player-driven market?

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LaVista Vista	Posted - 2009.03.12 14:25:00 - [1] Edited by: LaVista Vista on 12/03/2009 14:26:53 Nuff' said. Ingame there's NPC buyorders for: Ancient coordinates Database 1.500.000 Neural Network Analyzer 50.000 Sleeper data library 200.000 Sleeper Drone AI nexus 5.000.000 I find this extremely disturbing. I realize that it's a trade-good. However, I imagine that this will cause a considerable ISK faucet. I'm thinking of raising this as an issue on the CSM. Do you guys think we should do that?
Danny Centurai hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2009.03.12 14:31:00 - [2] Please could you explain why you think this is an issue? This is just the same as rats having bounties and they are actually worth less than good rats in 0.0 space the only difference is you can't simply farm them as you have to get all the stuff home. Personally I see no issue with these buy orders unless the same sleeper components are used somewhere in T3 ship construction which I don't believe they are.
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2009.03.12 14:39:00 - [3] Originally by: Danny Centurai Please could you explain why you think this is an issue? This is just the same as rats having bounties and they are actually worth less than good rats in 0.0 space the only difference is you can't simply farm them as you have to get all the stuff home. Personally I see no issue with these buy orders unless the same sleeper components are used somewhere in T3 ship construction which I don't believe they are. The items in question aren't used for anything but the NPC buy-orders, much like overseer items. But the problem is that it's an ISK faucet. Why would you do something like this when level 4 missions are bad enough of a problem already. Sure, there's more risk here. But EVE is all about it's player-driven market. If an item has no usage beyond being converted into ISK(ISK Faucet).
Victor Valka Caldari Kissaki Corporation	Posted - 2009.03.12 14:41:00 - [4] Okay. What's the drop rate like? Do these drop from all Sleepers or some sort of BBS only? Without knowing these two thing we can't have any estimate on how big an ISK faucet this could be. Originally by: Spaztick You are not outnumbered, you are in a target-rich environment.
Durente Galaica Amarr Viziam	Posted - 2009.03.12 14:42:00 - [5] Also consider these goods might be used for something in the future and ccp doesn't want players to have piles of them at 0.01 isk. But I kinda agree with what the other poster said. Think of them as dog tags bounties that you turn in to get isk.
Ace Secunda Dragon's Rage Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.03.12 14:48:00 - [6] I have not checked but do players have to go to specific factions/systems to sell these in the same way as Overseers Possesions? If this is the case they people will always be able to undercut the NPC's to save the player a couple of jumps. There are Overseers Possesions buy orders in Jita 8 - 10 jumps from NPC's who buy them for 30 mil less in price. 'If I can't blow it up It don't exsist'
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:02:00 - [7] I think I see LVV's point. CCP is constantly on about how it is a sandbox game. Their laissez-faire stance regarding the player markets is legendary in the MMO world. So it begs the question, why this, why now? PS: I've opinions on this but I'll leave them off for right now. My old mercenary(PVP) corp is recruiting again. Would you believe I'm giving them my signature block for free?
achoura	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:05:00 - [8] These thing replace the bounties, but unlike bounties you only get them if you both stay alive and don't get stuck (or come out on the other side of eve. If you'd prefer ccp put bounties on them rats... *The EVE servers and their patches*
Feng Schui Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:08:00 - [9] CCP wants the T3 ships to not drop below a certain price (hence the NPC buy orders).. that being said, IMO, let the market forces do their damn jobs and get rid of the buy orders. Project:Gank Pilgrim Guide
Kazzac Elentria	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:10:00 - [10] If it replaced the bounties I see no problem with it. And in actuality like it more. This may be one of the 'tests' for removing loot and stuff from regular mission rats.

WarlockX Amarr Free Trade Corp	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:14:00 - [11] Originally by: Feng Schui CCP wants the T3 ships to not drop below a certain price (hence the NPC buy orders).. that being said, IMO, let the market forces do their damn jobs and get rid of the buy orders. I don't think you understand what this thread is about. ----------------------------------------------- Free Trade Corp - Flash page "Nothing about Eve should be easy. Not even ganking." -Rhohan
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:16:00 - [12] Originally by: Feng Schui CCP wants the T3 ships to not drop below a certain price (hence the NPC buy orders).. that being said, IMO, let the market forces do their damn jobs and get rid of the buy orders. Nothing I have seen suggests that these things are even used for t3 production.
Victor Valka Caldari Kissaki Corporation	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:16:00 - [13] Originally by: Feng Schui CCP wants the T3 ships to not drop below a certain price (hence the NPC buy orders).. that being said, IMO, let the market forces do their damn jobs and get rid of the buy orders. These items are not used in T3 production. Originally by: Spaztick You are not outnumbered, you are in a target-rich environment.
Feng Schui Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:18:00 - [14] Originally by: WarlockX Originally by: Feng Schui CCP wants the T3 ships to not drop below a certain price (hence the NPC buy orders).. that being said, IMO, let the market forces do their damn jobs and get rid of the buy orders. I don't think you understand what this thread is about. Probably not.. I haven't done any real hard looking at building T3 stuff (My forte is capital modules.. I don't even do T2 stuff).. That being said, if they're just that, trade goods, and serve no real purpose; then I wouldn't worry too much about it Project:Gank Pilgrim Guide
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:19:00 - [15] Originally by: Feng Schui That being said, if they're just that, trade goods, and serve no real purpose; then I wouldn't worry too much about it If they serve no real purpose, why should they bloat the economy?
Feng Schui Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:28:00 - [16] If the gang is extremely unlucky, and gets no T3 components to sell.. at least they can get something out of it Project:Gank Pilgrim Guide
Linda Tradition	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:28:00 - [17] i totally agree. there are enough sources where isk come into the game. with this npc-buyorders, there is a lot more money coming into the game AND the prices are limited. probably this npc buy orders exist to force a constant minimum price for the stuff to take out some money. npc buyorders for other stuff (like minerals etc.) would raise the prices and would bring a lot of money out of the game. imo there is way to much isk in the game. unfortunatly the compatition will be much harder for the traders, but it would be a new challange...
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:29:00 - [18] This is basicly the same as a bounty on the Sleepers, it just forces people to haul stuff back to K-Space instead of wondering deeper into W-Space. There is no more of a problem with this then there is with the bounties on existing rats.
Confuzer I	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:31:00 - [19] Edited by: Confuzer I on 12/03/2009 15:31:41 Maybe... just maybe... NPC's are as eager as we to get their hand on that stuff. Maybe the prices will go down when there is enough supplied to NPC's... with a bottom price of 100k/item. But probably not
Caleb Ayrania Gallente TarNec	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:32:00 - [20] Not sure, but I would think they would remove the npc buy orders once the player markets pick up.. If I am not mistaken its to avoid to many market "holes" from logistics and price development issue.. I dont see them as a problem at this point, rather as mentioned, as a counter to the 1 isk buy order problem.. - Money is Love - Sometimes it just gets bend the wrong ways. Feed your Brain: Innovation Thread

Andrea Griffin	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:36:00 - [21] I'm 100% with Vista on this one. I am not fond of NPC buy orders. If CCP wants to reward players who bring back materials from W-space, then the sleepers should drop usable, of-interest-to-PC items. Of course, we don't know the reason that these buy orders exist, but if the idea is to "get the market started with some basic price points" then I disagree with it entirely. Let the market sort it all out. Believe it or not, perhaps this makes me a complete nerd, but the mostly-free market of this game is one of the biggest selling points to me. I find it to be very enjoyable. EVE's most consequential (and interesting) PvP exists on the market.
cpt Mark	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:45:00 - [22] I think it's just there to give a price guideline to be honest...
Petyr Baelich Taggart Transdimensional Virtue of Selfishness	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:53:00 - [23] Originally by: Caleb Ayrania Not sure, but I would think they would remove the npc buy orders once the player markets pick up.. If I am not mistaken its to avoid to many market "holes" from logistics and price development issue.. I dont see them as a problem at this point, rather as mentioned, as a counter to the 1 isk buy order problem.. The items have no purpose other than to be sold to NPCs. They are portable bounties. The mechanic is there because of IC backstory, (no CONCORD monitoring in w-space, so no one to see if you killed something to get a bounty). It has the potential to be inflationary, just as bounties and mission rewards are. It is a problem because I do not see any significant isk-sinks that have been added in this patch to counter it. The T3-related production POS mods and interfaces do not need to be purchased in enough quantity to counter the new faucet items; thus an imbalance exists.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2009.03.12 15:54:00 - [24] Originally by: Ki Tarra This is basicly the same as a bounty on the Sleepers, it just forces people to haul stuff back to K-Space instead of wondering deeper into W-Space. This is primarily what I'm thinking. Well not the deeper into W-Space stuff mind you. Just that CCP has created another version of "overseer effects". Some reward to be gained as an additional lure for people to enter W-Space (as if there wasn't enough). Originally by: Ki Tarra There is no more of a problem with this then there is with the bounties on existing rats. I do... granted the entire game is artificial however CCP's involvement in the market should be minimized as much as possible. This kind of thing is basically gov't subsidization. "Money from nothing" though, unlike gov't subsidization, should be avoided. As if Eve didn't have enough isk faucets. My old mercenary(PVP) corp is recruiting again. Would you believe I'm giving them my signature block for free?
Block Ukx Forge Laboratories	Posted - 2009.03.12 16:01:00 - [25] Originally by: LaVista Vista ...But EVE is all about it's player-driven market. That is the real issue. Has CCP changed its stand and is moving away from this principle? BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2009.03.12 16:05:00 - [26] Originally by: LaVista Vista ...But EVE is all about it's player-driven market. Originally by: Block Ukx That is the real issue. Has CCP changed its stand and is moving away from this principle? Well... CCP has these new partners. These new partners want Eve, and subsequent MMO's, to grab a bigger share of the market. That bigger share is essentially people who need to be coddled. Thus, welcome to Eve Online: Hypocritia My old mercenary(PVP) corp is recruiting again. Would you believe I'm giving them my signature block for free?
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2009.03.12 16:13:00 - [27] Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: LaVista Vista ...But EVE is all about it's player-driven market. Originally by: Block Ukx That is the real issue. Has CCP changed its stand and is moving away from this principle? Well... CCP has these new partners. These new partners want Eve, and subsequent MMO's, to grab a bigger share of the market. That bigger share is essentially people who need to be coddled. Thus, welcome to Eve Online: Hypocritia I think you are just being paranoid now.
Ki Tarra Caldari Ki Tech Industries	Posted - 2009.03.12 16:29:00 - [28] Originally by: Shar Tegral This is primarily what I'm thinking. Well not the deeper into W-Space stuff mind you. Just that CCP has created another version of "overseer effects". Some reward to be gained as an additional lure for people to enter W-Space (as if there wasn't enough). Yup, basicly another version of the "overseer effects". The point being that CCP didn't want people to simply disappear into the depths of W-Space, harvesting Sleepers as a pure ISK fountain. They want force return logistic to be an issue: if you don't make it back with your cargo, then you get nothing from your trip. Originally by: Shar Tegral This kind of thing is basically gov't subsidization. "Money from nothing" though, unlike gov't subsidization, should be avoided. As if Eve didn't have enough isk faucets. I view this as more of the same (rat bounty) ISK faucet, not so much as a new one. We saw what effect a resource based bounty system had with the introduction of the drone regions. I think this has reasonable potential for balancing between resource and ISK harvesting from Sleepers. The key will be in the specifics of the loot tables: how much of what is dropped.
Khrillian Minmatar Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.03.12 16:36:00 - [29] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Feng Schui That being said, if they're just that, trade goods, and serve no real purpose; then I wouldn't worry too much about it If they serve no real purpose, why should they bloat the economy? Suppose CCP wants to give sleepers bounties, but that didn't make sense from a RP point of view. How best to pay players to kill them (and create the same ISK faucet as bounties would have) without actually putting bounties on them? Otherwise worthless items which you can sell to NPCs seem like a reasonable solution to this problem. I don't know if they "bloat the economy" at all if what others are saying is correct and they're not used in T3 production.
Iridescent Moon Caldari Iridescent Dawn	Posted - 2009.03.12 16:37:00 - [30] Not seeing an issue here. Your saying it is an ISK faucet. So is any other similar activity. I rat, I get a bounty for killing them. I mission I get bounties and other pay. Everyone keeps talking about Opertunity cost in this forum. You get the same deal here. If A player is not in W-space collection this , and other, stuff they would be doing activites in K-space that would be dropping more ISK into the system. 6 of one and a half dozen of the other. Having NPC's buy this stuff is just the same thing we currently have. Accept it's not, it's better. I kill a rat, I get a bounty. Simple. I kil a #^%^ %&#&# %&#&#&%@%@* Drone and I get a %@%^ bounty as loot. (Yes, I HATE HATE HATE drones) Drone loot is bulky so it limits how much a player can carry in one go. These "Sleeper Effects" act as a bounty. Their size is not so limiting on the player. So a better option then Drone loot. The deeper effect is this, bounties don't get blown up. Drone loot can be lost with a ship but it takes up too much volume. As a ratter you'd be dropping off the loot often. As a raider killing the ratter they loot woudl be worhtless becuase it is too bulky. With this sleeper loot if it survives (another loot sink) then a raider can keep it. you can't do that with bounties. Destruction of cargo also removes these items before turn in. That is another element. So you have a new situatuion. Destructible bounties, transferable bounties and more to the point every if that pilot was not in sleeper space they would have been doing some other SIK faucet activity where nether of those would happen. Note: just woke up so not sure how well I am gettin my point across.



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