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Are sleepers a threat to the player-driven market?

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Chaos Dreams	Posted - 2009.03.13 07:03:00 - [121] Edited by: Chaos Dreams on 13/03/2009 07:06:33 From a RP/Immersion point of view, it has always seemed odd that there weren't more NPC market orders. According to the backstory, capsuleers are supposed to be these rare, elite people. Yet, they're responsible for 90% of the economy. Why aren't the other 90% of the people in New Eden (the NPC's: the people who live in the space stations and on the planets) buying and selling anything? But, I do think that any new ISK faucets should be balanced with some kind of ISK sink, as well. The game could probably use more ISK sinks in general, there's a lot of cash floating around.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.13 07:09:00 - [122] Originally by: Krathos Morpheus Thats not true, Akita already pointed to all components neccesary for T3 construction being dropped by the rats. That was after the post I cited, I was running them in sequence, but that i not important. The big problem in getting all the construction components from rats is that we return to the Drone Regions problem: mining (gas harvesting, hacking and codebreaking in this case) with guns. So all the other professions are swept away because combat pilots will provide everything. Quote: Also who thought he was the last to post here today? Cool You haven't an hour of post without replies, so no points for you.
Aricaan Gallente Playboy Enterprises Dark Taboo	Posted - 2009.03.13 07:57:00 - [123] Just want to say, that I like the idea of bounties that you have to turn in. ISK rules everything around me.
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2009.03.13 08:51:00 - [124] Originally by: Aricaan Just want to say, that I like the idea of bounties that you have to turn in. Don't get me wrong. I think ti's an improvement over the the current bounty system. But it should have been done for rats in general, not sleepers. Sleepers should drop T3 stuff.
GyokZoli Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.13 09:53:00 - [125] Originally by: Linda Tradition i totally agree. there are enough sources where isk come into the game. with this npc-buyorders, there is a lot more money coming into the game AND the prices are limited. What? These people figthing the sleepers instead of running level4 missions. So I don't see where is the increased money flow coming from what you are talking about. Moreover, these people have losses in W-space which they would not have running the level4s. So what's the problem with this?
Krathos Morpheus Gallente Legion Infernal Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.03.13 09:57:00 - [126] Also if you want isk sinks wait for ambulation. EVE Knowledge
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.03.13 11:31:00 - [127] Whatever it's worth, if it goes off to the table, so does my vote to someone else. I plain don't see the issue with this. Things like this have been in the game forever, and "tags" for NPC kills were one of the first things that excited me about EVE in my early mission runner days.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.13 11:51:00 - [128] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Aricaan Just want to say, that I like the idea of bounties that you have to turn in. Don't get me wrong. I think ti's an improvement over the the current bounty system. But it should have been done for rats in general, not sleepers. Sleepers should drop T3 stuff. It appear we are running in circles. For me you haven't explained why this will be an increase in isk faucets as a large percentage of the people that will be fighting Sleepers are people that instead, in the same time, would have been ratting or doing L4 missions. You say they will not be the same persons, but haven't motivated why they will not be the same players and explained who they will be. A further problem is that the rewards for hunting Sleepers for now are a total unknown and will have no stability for a long time. Nice for professional traders that would rack lots of isk with shrewd manipulations of the market and careful hoarding and unloading of the T3 materials, not so good for the people NPCing, as most of them will not have the time, resources and interest for that kind of manipulation. The sellable loot grant a minimum (and really low wage level) return from the activity. Negating that because it can be, maybe, potentially, if you stretch things a lot, a increase of the isk gain pro capita is not a good idea. The only report I have seen in this thread about the return of hunting Sleepers and selling that lot is mine. 3 millions for 50 minutes of actual combat (scanning and exploring not factored). Game breaking .
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2009.03.13 12:25:00 - [129] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Whatever it's worth, if it goes off to the table, so does my vote to someone else. Huh, what are you talking about?
Tasko Pal THE IRIS United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.13 12:30:00 - [130] Reading up on this thread, I conclude that: 1) There's no threat to the player driven market. 2) The "bounties" will encourage more ratting in W-space. 3) Risk of selling sleeper loot is reduced since these things are guaranteed income. 3) Akita won the forum battle with EdFromHumanResources. More T3 materials means cheaper T3 ships. It's not "drivel". 4) There isn't "tens of billions" being made every day by a titan and a herd of freighters.
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2009.03.13 12:32:00 - [131] Quote: For me you haven't explained why this will be an increase in isk faucets as a large percentage of the people that will be fighting Sleepers are people that instead, in the same time, would have been ratting or doing L4 missions. That's where I disagree with you. It will NOT be the same people, in my opinion. Because there's a fundamental greater risk of doing wormholes. Those who do level 4's aren't willing to take that risk. Quote: The sellable loot grant a minimum (and really low wage level) return from the activity. I don't disagree that people should be compensated. But not by pumping more ISK into the economy. There should simply be a demand for the dropped items. Not NPC buy orders. Quote: The only report I have seen in this thread about the return of hunting Sleepers and selling that lot is mine. 3 millions for 50 minutes of actual combat (scanning and exploring not factored). That's why there should be a player-driven market for the loot, where the actual return is HIGHER, while creating a thriving market. Can you tell that I have studied classical economics? Game breaking .
Muroth	Posted - 2009.03.13 12:42:00 - [132] Edited by: Muroth on 13/03/2009 12:42:58 Edit: Crud...wrong character selected...but you should know who I am Wow, I feel like I was speaking in a vacuum three pages ago... Aside from Akita, everyone has been focusing only on isk injection. Akita did comment on the fact that if you didn't have isk injection, the going price for whatever loot was dropped by T3 would drop (as they would), but I disagree with the assertion that lower prices "would be a benefit for everyone." (Rhetorical: who is going to manufacture in a market where prices are always dropping?) Simply stated, ideally you have to have a system where currency growth moves in step with wealth production. This is why insurance is broken (I'll say it again): insurance creates isk when wealth is destroyed. While LaVista correctly states that new people (i.e., more PVP-leaning) will shoot Sleepers, they are "creating" T3 materials at the same time as generating new isk, so this really isn't a problem since both isk and goods are increasing.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.13 14:35:00 - [133] Originally by: LaVista Vista Quote: For me you haven't explained why this will be an increase in isk faucets as a large percentage of the people that will be fighting Sleepers are people that instead, in the same time, would have been ratting or doing L4 missions. That's where I disagree with you. It will NOT be the same people, in my opinion. Because there's a fundamental greater risk of doing wormholes. Those who do level 4's aren't willing to take that risk. And then who they are? Some mythical player that was getting all his isk through PvP and now will convert to PvE? At most they will be people that was ratting in 0.0, and that will be a reduction in the isk brought into the system, not an increase. Ratting in in 0.0 give from 20 to 50 millions hours in bounties not loot that should be recovered and sold to some NPC buy order. Quote: Quote: The sellable loot grant a minimum (and really low wage level) return from the activity. I don't disagree that people should be compensated. But not by pumping more ISK into the economy. There should simply be a demand for the dropped items. Not NPC buy orders. See above, no larger isk faucet than before, probably smaller. Quote: Quote: The only report I have seen in this thread about the return of hunting Sleepers and selling that lot is mine. 3 millions for 50 minutes of actual combat (scanning and exploring not factored). That's why there should be a player-driven market for the loot, where the actual return is HIGHER, while creating a thriving market. Non sequitur. Or if you prefer, your replys has no meaning. The other Sleeper rewards are regulated by the market, so the total reward can be or can be not decent, that is the isk faucet you fear so much. Sorry, it seem you have fixated on a position and don't even want to look what is the in game reality. Until you explain what is this part of the player demographics that was not getting isk from the current isk faucets and that now will go and get them from the Sleepers your whoule argument has no base.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.13 14:41:00 - [134] Originally by: Muroth While LaVista correctly states that new people (i.e., more PVP-leaning) will shoot Sleepers, they are "creating" T3 materials at the same time as generating new isk, so this really isn't a problem since both isk and goods are increasing. He don't state that, he never explained what demographics will do that. More than that, it is not true, as those PvPers will be changing the isk making activities they were doing before to hunting Sleepers, but for the largest part of them that activity was hunting NPC rats for bounties (isk faucet) or doing level 4 missions (isk faucet again). They will not be exchanging PvP for a PvE activity and no isk faucet to a isk faucet. For 99% of EVE players PvP don't increase the isk in wallet, it decrease it. So they need another activity to get the isk in wallet, and for most of the combat oriented players it is ratting or mission running. Those PvPers that already get plenty of isk from market trading, manifacturing or moon mining will still use those activities to fatten the wallet and spend that in PvP, most of them will not move to PvE.
Mahke Perkone	Posted - 2009.03.13 15:19:00 - [135] Originally by: Muroth Edited by: Muroth on 13/03/2009 12:42:58 Rhetorical: who is going to manufacture in a market where prices are always dropping? More supply of sleeper components means a lower equilibrium price if an equilibrium price is ever to be reached (it usually is but not always in EVE), OR a faster rate of deflation if there would be a rate of deflation anyway (unlikely). What it would most certainly not do is is turn an equilibrium situation into a downwards spiral. Even if we take the more than unlikely assumption that it would, people will still produce into that if there are sufficient profits along the way: take the people making t3 goods now when we all know the prices will collapse in the coming weeks as the newness wears off and people learn how to run sleepers.
Jarne Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.03.13 15:23:00 - [136] Edited by: Jarne on 13/03/2009 15:23:51 Just as an information: Sleeper BS in class 5 systems ("Core" anomalies) drop 2 of the Sleeper Drone AI Nexus a 5mio ISK. Sleeper BS in lower class systems don't seem to drop them from what I can tell from Venkul's post... But those BS are really hard to kill. What we got from our trip to W-Space was a lot of drones lost, some ships popped, a huge time investment, and a reward that is so low compared to our efforts it makes me wanna cry. Best thing was three fighters looted from an anomaly where there seemed to have died a carrier inside. So I don't see a problem in those NPC buy orders. In the contrary, they might be necessary to get the people to actually do something in W-Space and as such loot and sell the other items that are needed for T3 production. - Success=Achievements/Expectations
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.13 17:01:00 - [137] CCP has been really smart creating wormhole space. Hundreds of ships and modules being destroyed, self destructed and ejected as pilots pod their way home. It's a great way to remove isk from the system.
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2009.03.13 17:37:00 - [138] Originally by: Ricdic CCP has been really smart creating wormhole space. Hundreds of ships and modules being destroyed, self destructed and ejected as pilots pod their way home. It's a great way to remove isk from the system. How can an ISK faucet remove ISK from the game?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.03.13 17:40:00 - [139] Edited by: Akita T on 13/03/2009 17:44:32 Originally by: Muroth Aside from Akita, everyone has been focusing only on isk injection. Akita did comment on the fact that if you didn't have isk injection, the going price for whatever loot was dropped by T3 would drop (as they would), but I disagree with the assertion that lower prices "would be a benefit for everyone." (Rhetorical: who is going to manufacture in a market where prices are always dropping?) The drop is from "current status quo" to "status quo after change", not a continuous drop after the change. Prices would end up to be pretty stable, just lower than what they would now end up. High supply, high demand, lower prices, higher volumes, same or higher income levels for everybody involved. Originally by: Ricdic CCP has been really smart creating wormhole space. Hundreds of ships and modules being destroyed, self destructed and ejected as pilots pod their way home. It's a great way to remove isk from the system. Like LVV just pointed out, how exactly is a system that doesn't destroy a single piece of ISK but instead creates a lot of ISK out of thin air (insurance payout) while also removing GOODS (you know, stuff that's not ISK) supposed to "remove ISK from the system" ?!? Well, ok, granted, there is some small degree of ISK sink here for the medical clone contract and a slightly higher demand for implants, but that's about "it". _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.13 18:20:00 - [140] I was more talking about people losing their ships and mods etc when destroyed, also don't CCP blow up cans and ships etc now after a certain period of inactivity I never said the word faucet nor removing isk from the game
Cor Aidan Imperium Forces Ethereal Dawn	Posted - 2009.03.13 18:36:00 - [141] Originally by: Akita T High supply, high demand, lower prices, higher volumes, same or higher income levels for everybody involved. All else being equal, if the total amount of isk coming into the game is X per person-hour, how can any change of price/volume get more than X per person-hour for everyone involved? Same, yes, I'll agree that's possible. I'll even warrant that many will get richer because of T3, the per-capita income rate will not change. The only way increased income for "everyone" can occur is if a) T3 improves the isk creation rate over the current "technology" by reducing time to run missions,rat,and collect insurance (I have no data on which to make an assessment there) and/or b) along with T3 we get new faucets. The best way to remove isk if you want to fight inflation is to continually sell yourself 1 trit priced at something outrageous and destroy 0.75% (with good skills) or 2% (default) per transaction.
Drab Cane Mining Emporium inc.	Posted - 2009.03.13 18:55:00 - [142] Point 1) If Sleepers dropped T3-related items, how many players would be buying them? How many buy orders are currently up for T3-related salvage? My guess is that CCP wanted to reward Sleeper-killers with rewards that had a specific value on day 1 of the expansion, without having to wait on the player market to develop. Give PvE players an immediate reason to look for the wormholes in the first place. Point 2) On a different note, the NPC goods can't be reprocessed into T3 materials. By using NPC goods, the W-space loot drops will not dilute the market for T3 materials, which has been a complaint about T1 loot drops from missions (diluting the T1 market and the minerals market). Point 3) The cost in time and materials to pursue an activity will offset somewhat the reward for the activity. So yeah, as Ricdic mentioned, W-space will eat up plenty of ships and modules and time, it works as a sink as well. But the overall net effect of Sleeper killing will be a faucet. Point 4) I understand that LVV's concern is that the NPC goods buy orders will dump money into the economy. However, eventual data will most likely show that players who are drinking from the W-space faucet are the same players that would otherwise be drinking from some other faucet. So, no net increase to the inflow of ISK into the economy. ----------------------------------------------- - Who Dares, Wins
Power Sauce	Posted - 2009.03.13 19:20:00 - [143] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Whatever it's worth, if it goes off to the table, so does my vote to someone else. Huh, what are you talking about? You've lost my vote if it goes to the CSM table. I think you've actually lost the plot in relation to this. I'm just glad that CCP can reject terrible ideas raised in CSM.
Professor Leech Transmetropolitan	Posted - 2009.03.13 19:25:00 - [144] Originally by: Drab Cane Point 1) However, eventual data will most likely show that players who are drinking from the W-space faucet are the same players that would otherwise be drinking from some other faucet. So, no net increase to the inflow of ISK into the economy. There will probably be a reduction in isk generation due to people spending time probing and trying to find their way back. Alternatively, getting blown up by someone else in the wormhole. This could be a solution to the macro farmers that sit in 0.0 systems all day farming bounties. Force them to haul the loot back to a station. It's unfortunate that our CSM representative doesn't have a realistic perspective on this. Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
Tasko Pal THE IRIS United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.13 19:56:00 - [145] Originally by: Ricdic CCP has been really smart creating wormhole space. Hundreds of ships and modules being destroyed, self destructed and ejected as pilots pod their way home. It's a great way to remove isk from the system. It won't last more than a few weeks, if that. The competent people will figure out how to wring isk from W-space and the rest will do something else.
Aricaan Gallente Playboy Enterprises Dark Taboo	Posted - 2009.03.13 20:16:00 - [146] Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Aricaan Just want to say, that I like the idea of bounties that you have to turn in. Don't get me wrong. I think ti's an improvement over the the current bounty system. But it should have been done for rats in general, not sleepers. Sleepers should drop T3 stuff. Just to play devils advocate, Maybe the code for the mechanics in non wh space is so deeply written that its actually just easier for CCP to make new content with new rules. Also, whats not to say that this stuff isnt tradeable? Maybe certain regions actually payout more for it. ISK rules everything around me.
Thoraemond Minmatar Far Ranger	Posted - 2009.03.13 20:42:00 - [147] There are a lot of bald assertions and claims with a high degree of certainty (e.g., "will be") in this thread. Some of the phenomena described can be measured by CCP, such as how many 'Level 4 mission runners' make Sleeper kills in W-space (and what fraction of those pilot do so, and what fraction of Sleeper kills are by such pilots, and so on). I doubt many players or posters here have actual aggregate numbers to back up their claims: If I'm wrong, please point me to your data sources, and I'll be happy to learn from them. There is a rational concern about the possibility that both (i) W-space amounts to a substantial net ISK faucet, and (ii) such a faucet is actually a problem for the player-economy. However, I think most posters above that insufficient evidence to make such strong claims about the present reality of such a problem, and I have reasonable confidence that CCP is already keeping an eye on this issue (perhaps in lieu of the annual QEN reports?). Before the evidence is in, it's too soon to know what remedy might be appropriate. While the CSM could remind CCP to look at this topic, I don't think it's necessary to do so, and so not a high priority.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.03.13 20:54:00 - [148] Originally by: Cor Aidan Originally by: Akita T High supply, high demand, lower prices, higher volumes, same or higher income levels for everybody involved. All else being equal, if the total amount of isk coming into the game is X per person-hour, how can any change of price/volume get more than X per person-hour for everyone involved? Same, yes, I'll agree that's possible. I'll even warrant that many will get richer because of T3, the per-capita income rate will not change. Everybody involved in T3 (gathering, manufacture, trade, users of), of course, not everybody on the server How it's better for the gatherers it's obvious. Manufacturers and traders, they usually live on margins, so the higher the volume, the better. Users of, obviously, cheaper is better for them. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2009.03.13 20:55:00 - [149] Originally by: Power Sauce Originally by: LaVista Vista Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Whatever it's worth, if it goes off to the table, so does my vote to someone else. Huh, what are you talking about? You've lost my vote if it goes to the CSM table. I think you've actually lost the plot in relation to this. I'm just glad that CCP can reject terrible ideas raised in CSM. I can't run for another term. Just saying'.
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2009.03.13 21:04:00 - [150] Originally by: Professor Leech Originally by: Drab Cane Point 1) However, eventual data will most likely show that players who are drinking from the W-space faucet are the same players that would otherwise be drinking from some other faucet. So, no net increase to the inflow of ISK into the economy. There will probably be a reduction in isk generation due to people spending time probing and trying to find their way back. Alternatively, getting blown up by someone else in the wormhole. This could be a solution to the macro farmers that sit in 0.0 systems all day farming bounties. Force them to haul the loot back to a station. It's unfortunate that our CSM representative doesn't have a realistic perspective on this. There's no realistic perspective in this when it's all speculation. It all comes down to certain variables, which we can't know. We all fundamentally agree about the mechanics involved(Other than Ricdic), however we have different opinions about peoples behavior. Not to forget the idealistic views that aren't shared by everybody.

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