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Are sleepers a threat to the player-driven market?

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Manalapan Dynasty Banking	Posted - 2009.03.15 12:40:00 - [211] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs Quote: I never said they needed to add any materials to get it to work. Make a new process use minerals to build robotics, mechanical parts....etc no need to be introducing new materials to do that (Unfortunately it would be CCP response most likely). OK. Build your idea and I might be convinced. How do you "get" these goods? Do you pay for them with ISK in which case it's an ISK sink? Do you just accrue them like SP in which case it's a material faucet? Either way, there's a reduction in the ratio of ISK in the universe to materials. How do you balance that out again? Or are you just asking CCP to deflate EVE's economy faster? Quote: Ah see thats a valid point, but I still feel that usable materials for T3 or otherwise dropped rather than a trade good would be more valuable to the EVE economy. However, I do understand CCP putting that in to promote wormholes and players use of them. Once again, balance it. T3 introduces a production line not disimilar to T2, in so far as it needing a massive investment for any newcomers into POS structures, materials and, for those who use it, the purchase and eventual loss of ships (On an aside, I'd like to see their insurance values). It's a massive ISK sink and material faucet. Without any additional ISK faucet the net effect of T3 would be an overall deflation of the economy, whose magnitude I can't and won't speculate on. I ask again in case it's slipped to the wayside. I brought 15 million of materials in to the EVE universe during my last stint, and I also brought 15 million ISK into the universe in these trade goods. Is this not balanced, especially when considering I've reinvested that ISK into other ISK sinks, namely insurance on some T1 ships I plan to use and POS gear which is not player manufactured. You just made me cry a little bit on the inside with that last sentence. The insurance is not an ISK sink. POS are definitely one right now......even though I would like them to be player manufactured (see a pattern yet). I agree there does need to be a balancing of ISK faucet and ISK sinks as well as balancing with in those for different types of players. I will probably work on an idea for production of trade goods (need to look if there has been anything like it so far most likely has). Alright I am off work so will probably not be forum whoring so much for the rest of the day.... Dynasty Banking
Clurk Brodon Yog-Sothoth Heavy Industries	Posted - 2009.03.15 16:03:00 - [212] Originally by: Manalapan You just made me cry a little bit on the inside with that last sentence. The insurance is not an ISK sink. It is, if the ship isn't destroyed.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.03.15 17:46:00 - [213] Originally by: Clurk Brodon It is, if the ship isn't destroyed. Now ask yourself this : how many insurances expire as opposed to being claimed ? The answer is, a vast majority of insurances don't expire, the ship dies before that. People that don't lose ships don't insure them, and people that know they are at risk of losing the ship insure it, then act slightly less responsable so they DO lose it usually before the insurance runs out. The insurance is a massive ISK faucet combined with a small ISK sink in a single package, so overall, it's a big ISK faucet. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Vested Interest	Posted - 2009.03.15 17:52:00 - [214] Originally by: Akita T Now ask yourself this : how many insurances expire as opposed to being claimed ? The answer is, a vast majority of insurances don't expire, the ship dies before that. Can you support this statement? My personal experiences lead me to conclude otherwise.
Cergorach Amarr The Helix Foundation	Posted - 2009.03.15 17:57:00 - [215] Originally by: Vested Interest Originally by: Akita T Now ask yourself this : how many insurances expire as opposed to being claimed ? The answer is, a vast majority of insurances don't expire, the ship dies before that. Can you support this statement? My personal experiences lead me to conclude otherwise. If that's the case your spending to much on insurance, your isk is better spent elsewhere.
Clair Bear Perkone	Posted - 2009.03.15 20:22:00 - [216] Originally by: Vested Interest Originally by: Akita T Now ask yourself this : how many insurances expire as opposed to being claimed ? The answer is, a vast majority of insurances don't expire, the ship dies before that. Can you support this statement? My personal experiences lead me to conclude otherwise. Absolutely. I only insure ships I'm likely to lose. In the unlikely event of insurance expiring before I am ganked the ship gets self-destructed. This is the standard MO for anyone flying cheap, disposable, unrigged T1. T2 hulls are not worth insuring. I've only had to SD a ship twice over a total of ~7 alt-years.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.03.15 20:27:00 - [217] Originally by: Clair Bear T2 hulls are not worth insuring Side-note... technically, they are worth insuring if you're likely to lose them. But the percentual benefits are negligible, so most of the time people don't really bother doing it. _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Vested Interest	Posted - 2009.03.15 20:58:00 - [218] I'm asking for definitive proof rather than conjecture.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.03.15 21:12:00 - [219] Originally by: Clurk Brodon Originally by: Manalapan You just made me cry a little bit on the inside with that last sentence. The insurance is not an ISK sink. It is, if the ship isn't destroyed. This. Your statement of "The insurance is not an ISK sink." made me cry more because you demonstrate your lack of depth in this discussion. Yes it's a massive ISK faucet for the game, but that doesn't change the fact it's got an ISK sink component. What the heck am I supposed to say when I throw money at that ISK sink if I can't say it's an ISK sink??? Quote: Quote: Now ask yourself this : how many insurances expire as opposed to being claimed ? The answer is, a vast majority of insurances don't expire, the ship dies before that. Can you support this statement? My personal experiences lead me to conclude otherwise. My personal experience is definately otherwise. I generally don't insure anything these days unless it's loss would be a significant financial setback, certainly not unrecoverable, but at least a 10-25% loss of my net wealth. Towards this end, my insurances have been for the following: - Charon, in case of suicide ganks. - Orca, for similar reasons plus I want to take it out to W-space - Chimera, because it's got no place to call home. Considering I'm not part of any alliance, I think it'd be pure idiocy to do otherwise. My Chimera insurance is set to expire in April, my Charon already expired and I'll sell it because the sale value is worth more than the insured payout, and the Orca is a fresh payment. Any other ships I own are multi-user, so it doesn't make sense to insure them, or I simply don't care about it. A loss of approx 50 mil (after basic payout) of a Raven isn't really a concern. On insurance though, correct, it is a massive ISK faucet. Missions are a massive ISK faucet too. So why don't you set your sights on those issues if ISK faucets are such a threat to the player-run economy rather than this triviality?
Krathos Morpheus Gallente Legion Infernal Wildly Inappropriate.	Posted - 2009.03.15 23:25:00 - [220] Originally by: Kylar Renpurs On insurance though, correct, it is a massive ISK faucet. Missions are a massive ISK faucet too. So why don't you set your sights on those issues if ISK faucets are such a threat to the player-run economy rather than this triviality? QFT I don't see your points towards the Sleepers when they have minimal impact on the whole picture considering the other ink faucets on the game. Do you really think that Sleepers are a "threat" to the economy considering the economy don't crash with these other faucets? EVE Knowledge

Khralen The Night Corporation	Posted - 2009.03.16 03:53:00 - [221] I only read the first page and not the other seven, so I apologize if this point and questions has been made already. Faction NPCs (Amarr Navy, Caldari Navy, etc.) drop tags that are redeemable for ISK at NPC stations (NPC orders). What makes this different? Other than it being harder to redeem? LVV: The question I pose to you is this: Are you against all forms of ISK faucets? Personally, I do not feel that this is worth speaking about at a CSM meeting.
LaVista Vista	Posted - 2009.03.16 05:02:00 - [222] Originally by: Khralen LVV: The question I pose to you is this: Are you against all forms of ISK faucets? No, not at all. There needs to be ISK faucets. Else we would end up with 0 ISK in the economy
Manalapan Dynasty Banking	Posted - 2009.03.16 05:18:00 - [223] and I am back at work so forum whoring is my new past time Really I think LVV point is more that we need to make sure the faucets do not get out of hand. Also with the tags argument I would agree its basically the same thing just the reason we are discussing the sleepers is because they were just released and I think the drops are in much higher quantity I go sleeper ratting for an hour assuming I have some good scan luck I typically walk away with at least 100 sleeper data library (Yes I do more than just DBANK) which I do not recall tag drops being that frequent but of course its been a while. Dynasty Banking
ingenting Cohors Alaria	Posted - 2009.03.16 05:47:00 - [224] Originally by: LaVista Vista Edited by: LaVista Vista on 12/03/2009 14:26:53 Nuff' said. Ingame there's NPC buyorders for: Ancient coordinates Database 1.500.000 Neural Network Analyzer 50.000 Sleeper data library 200.000 Sleeper Drone AI nexus 5.000.000 I find this extremely disturbing. I realize that it's a trade-good. However, I imagine that this will cause a considerable ISK faucet. I'm thinking of raising this as an issue on the CSM. Do you guys think we should do that? please do, along with the *****ed missions that require ore. _________________ - "Welcome to EVE, remember to insu BAAOOM*... Told you, newb."
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.03.16 06:54:00 - [225] Quote: Also with the tags argument I would agree its basically the same thing just the reason we are discussing the sleepers is because they were just released and I think the drops are in much higher quantity I go sleeper ratting for an hour assuming I have some good scan luck I typically walk away with at least 100 sleeper data library (Yes I do more than just DBANK) which I do not recall tag drops being that frequent but of course its been a while. Haven't run FW missions then have you? This whole 'issue' is just a knee jerk reaction to something new, when there's far greater problems relating to "ISK faucets". If things like mission rewards and insurance were fixed, there might even be need for more things like these sleeper trade goods.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.16 07:02:00 - [226] Originally by: Manalapan and I am back at work so forum whoring is my new past time Really I think LVV point is more that we need to make sure the faucets do not get out of hand. Also with the tags argument I would agree its basically the same thing just the reason we are discussing the sleepers is because they were just released and I think the drops are in much higher quantity I go sleeper ratting for an hour assuming I have some good scan luck I typically walk away with at least 100 sleeper data library (Yes I do more than just DBANK) which I do not recall tag drops being that frequent but of course its been a while. So, let's it put it straight: - you enter a exploration site (high level apparently); - you kill the NPC therein 1 hour; - get 20 millions in bounties (in the foirm of sellable loot); - cry that it is too much and it will change EVE economy; Can I suggest a little check for comparison? - go to 0.0; - find a good combat exploration site (non drones); - enter it and kill the rats; - after 1 hour of combat check how many isk in bounties have entered your wallet. If the isk are less than 20 millions you can continue protesting, instead , if as it will be, you get more than 20 millions of isk directly in your wallet for killing the NPC you should have learned something on how EVE work in the field of NPC bounties. Even more simple, ask some 0.0 ratter how many isk they get from bounties ratting 1 hour, simply warping from belt to belt in a normal system.
Manalapan Dynasty Banking	Posted - 2009.03.16 08:44:00 - [227] Edited by: Manalapan on 16/03/2009 08:46:10 Hey I never said there were not other faucets that need to be looked at the issue is why more. EDIT: Sudden thought.. I wonder what CCP wants the 'average' EVE player to be worth because they might actually be thinking here to push the average wallet up through more opportunities. Its easy to forget about the individual player sometimes. Dynasty Banking
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.03.16 09:06:00 - [228] Quote: the issue is why more. You got your answer a long way back. New ISK sink in the form of T3, and a huge amount of new material faucets injecting materials for purchase into the economy. It simply makes sense.
YouGotRipped Ewigkeit	Posted - 2009.03.16 09:55:00 - [229] I'm sorry, I don't have time to read this entire thread but I'll presume you're all lacking in certain fields. Why would another faucet be a threat to the player market? It is not a matter of how many faucets are added but isk/hour compared to say - L4 missioning. Oh and that's not all, WH space is 0.0 space with no local channel: "Suddenly the illusion of solitude shatters... [...] 5-6 idiots with tackling ships (even heavy dictors) have risen and are scrambling me". Weeeeeeeeee Definitely not an isk faucet if you ask me, more like a death trap. Black Sun Empire
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.16 10:27:00 - [230] Originally by: Manalapan Hey I never said there were not other faucets that need to be looked at the issue is why more. EDIT: Sudden thought.. I wonder what CCP wants the 'average' EVE player to be worth because they might actually be thinking here to push the average wallet up through more opportunities. Its easy to forget about the individual player sometimes. This part of you previous post: Quote: I go sleeper ratting for an hour assuming I have some good scan luck I typically walk away with at least 100 sleeper data library which I do not recall tag drops being that frequent but of course its been a while. seem to mean that Sleepers are an excessive isk faucet as ratting you weren't you weren't getting 10 millions in tags in your experience. But you don't rat for tags, you rat for bounties, and 20 million isk in bounties ratting in 0.0 isn't hard to get at all. If you want to compare tags you should consider level 4 or even level 5 missions and there you will get 20 millions/hour easily.

Mashie Saldana Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams	Posted - 2009.03.16 10:55:00 - [231] It's quite simple, you can finally make isk with your PVP pilot instead of your mission running alt. Also thanks to these tags people will be able to maintain a good isk/h without making T3 even more expensive in the long run.
Jackie Fisher Syrkos Technologies	Posted - 2009.03.16 11:59:00 - [232] I would imagine the new low sec Battleship belt rats will be a far more ædamagingÆ ISK faucet (and mining nerf) than Sleeper loot NPC buy orders.
Kwint Sommer Caldari XERCORE	Posted - 2009.03.16 15:56:00 - [233] Originally by: Jackie Fisher I would imagine the new low sec Battleship belt rats will be a far more ædamagingÆ ISK faucet (and mining nerf) than Sleeper loot NPC buy orders. Excellent point. I wasn't even considering that. Great, CCP has seen fit to introduce even more ISK faucets than initially believed and at the same time they've done nothing to increase the ISK sinks and are planning to reduce one of the largest (POS's will no longer be tied to sovereignty). I wish their PR doctor, err "economist," would start giving us meaningful numbers on the currency and fixed assets in EVE so we could develop a real idea of just how much inflation is on the horizon. The only thing more infuriating than watching CCP dump more and more ISK into the economy is being unable to judge the extent of it.
Kwint Sommer Caldari XERCORE	Posted - 2009.03.16 15:59:00 - [234] Originally by: Mashie Saldana It's quite simple, you can finally make isk with your PVP pilot instead of your mission running alt. Also thanks to these tags people will be able to maintain a good isk/h without making T3 even more expensive in the long run. There's nothing simple about it and quite frankly the number of simpletons in this thread makes me want to stop posting on MD. For the love god, I feel like half the people posting here think a ship getting blown up is an ISK sink.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.16 19:12:00 - [235] Originally by: Kwint Sommer Originally by: Jackie Fisher I would imagine the new low sec Battleship belt rats will be a far more ædamagingÆ ISK faucet (and mining nerf) than Sleeper loot NPC buy orders. Excellent point. I wasn't even considering that. Great, CCP has seen fit to introduce even more ISK faucets than initially believed and at the same time they've done nothing to increase the ISK sinks and are planning to reduce one of the largest (POS's will no longer be tied to sovereignty). I wish their PR doctor, err "economist," would start giving us meaningful numbers on the currency and fixed assets in EVE so we could develop a real idea of just how much inflation is on the horizon. The only thing more infuriating than watching CCP dump more and more ISK into the economy is being unable to judge the extent of it. No new isk sinks? 1) several new skills, granted, you lear them only once, but the prerequisites are low and a lot of people will learn them even if they will not buy a T3 ship for some time; 2) 1 new POS module that use as much resources as a advanced laboratory and has 1 usable slot (experimentary lab); 3) several new BPO (again, one shot but all helps); 4) gas reaction for T3 construction can be done in POS (so more fuel); 5) POS are still linked to sovereignty, that is something CCP want to do, not something that has done.
Celia Therone	Posted - 2009.03.16 19:37:00 - [236] Originally by: Akita T Worst case scenario, you have slightly higher risk level in most of the "wildspace profesions" compared to normal Sleeper hunting (all you need is sacrifice ONE midslot on ONE ship), with the only major problem (read : radically increased risk) being gas mining, where you usually might want to sacrifice up to 4 (or even 5, if you bother training the gas mining skill that high) highslots on each gas mining ship. So other than gas mining, the other professions are just fine (and you get to fight decent numbers of Sleeper craft while doing it anyway). I think that mostly you have pretty good points, but it seems to me as though you haven't actually tried wormhole space. In order to do magnetometric sites you have to sacrifice a high (salvager) and a mid (analyzer) slot. To do hacking you just need a mid (codebreaker). However the sites are guarded (25 sleepers including a battleship in an easy magnetometric) so you really always want a salvager and a tractor beam. Then there's a reasonable chance that you might get stuck in w-space so you want a probe launcher. Worried about pvpers? Add a cloak. What happens if you scan out a hacking site when you're equipped for magnetometric? Maybe you want both an analyzer and a codebreaker. Remember that going back through the wormhole to switch out might cause it to close which will cost you all of the scanning work that you've done. It also unnecessarily exposes you to wormhole camps. Because the radar/magnetometric sites are really hard to find you'd better plan to finish them. That means that you'll be in there for a while and vulnerable too. If you warp out the site may despawn, even if you haven't touched a can. So you're talking about sacrificing four high slots and two mids whilst still maintaining a tank/gank that can kill 9 sleepers at a time, including a battleship. In contrast a pvper sacrifices a high to a probe launcher. (Well they probably lose mids to webifiers, warp inhibitors but given that they'll use them to kill you it doesn't seem like that much of a sacrifice.) A sleeper ratter sacrifices a high slot to a probe launcher. Possibly two more to a salvager/tractor but, remember, they don't have to worry about their sites despawning so they can fit a salvaging/looting ship (with a small risk that the wormhole will close when they switch.) Anomalies are trivial to scan down (100% on the first scan) so ratters can run away as soon as they smell trouble and lose very little doing so. Btw, I was alpha struck for around 1700 damage (after resists) by towers in a gas cloud before I dropped out of warp. I've also heard anecdotal reports of sleepers arriving in gas clouds after players have started mining there (although all of the gas clouds that I've visited so far haven't had rats in when I warped to them initially, other than the one with sentries.) Gas clouds are also very commmon and easy to find, at least for the low end gasses. Again this means that you lose very little by running when you see someone on your scanner. In contrast running from a radar that took you a couple of hours to find can cost you the entire site before you even get to the can lottery.
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2009.03.16 21:24:00 - [237] Originally by: Celia Therone ..stuff.. You're points only criticise solo players, which WH space is definately not for. Enter the Prowler, your one-stop exploration shop for those on a budget both in terms of manpower and ISK. Highs: Covops cloak II, Expanded Probe Launcher. Mids: Codebreaker, Analyzer, 10mn MWD Lows: Expanded Cargohold IIs. With the exception of any Gas/mining activities, which are A) nothing new, or B) Starting to not really be "worth it" either. I've heard the claims that "Probe launcher not on a covops ship? What?" but after a few days at it I can scan down a site generally within 5 minutes. Then have a full fit PvE ship (with a cloak if you're that scared, but in actual fact you're quite safe unless the WH you found was in Jita or some other system with 60+ people). Solo, yeah, you won't reap much except these drops. On an aside, I too had forgotten about low sec BS. There's your port of call if you have concerns about "ISK sinks". If they 'fixed' these sleeper drops rather than fixing other ISK faucets such as bounties and insurance, then they'd just exacerbate the problem.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.03.16 22:02:00 - [238] Originally by: Celia Therone I think that mostly you have pretty good points, but it seems to me as though you haven't actually tried wormhole space. [...]stuff about how nasty it is to solo wildspace[...] Well, I start with the obvious assumption (confirmed by the devs as being their intention) that you're not supposed to solo wildspace. Like the posted above pointed out, for all wildspace activities (except gas mining) all you need is a single blockade runner as the "specialist" (more of them don't hurt)... and then have some of the other ships pack a salvager in one of the spare highs (some ships actually do have a "spare high"). Heck, I'd really expect a lot of w-space gangs to actually sport a good deal of ECM boats, which aren't exactly what could be considered up until now "PvE material". _ Create a character \|\| Fit a ship \|\| Get some ISK
Pang Grohl Gallente Sudo Corp	Posted - 2009.03.17 00:05:00 - [239] I believe that these Sleeper NPC goods were added to shore up incomes against an increase of demand vs supply in T2 goods as people move to start up T3 production. The simple fact is that any expanding economy is going to have inflation. Using inflation risk as a con to adding isk to the economy is a canard, because generally all produce-able goods are decreasing in price. Having and expanding isk faucets is necessary to fuel the growth of the EVE economy as new players enter the game. *** Si non adjuvas, noces (If you're not helping, you're hurting)
nether void Caldari The Older Gamers Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.17 22:24:00 - [240] Yes get rid of them. Salvage is enough of a money maker, and isn't an isk faucet. Rework bounty system too, IMO. No more money falling from the sky. Rework mission system. Agents should have a 'budget' just like everyone else. --------------------



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