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Dave10
Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.03.21 21:43:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Dave10 on 21/03/2009 21:51:29 Edited by: Dave10 on 21/03/2009 21:44:00 On the latest build (85232) deep space probes are now down to 5 base str, from their original 20.
PLEASE do not put this live. Deep space probes are currently the only way to filter out all the grav/ladar sites in WH systems - so if this goes live, it'll take 10 times longer to get the useful radar/mag/unknown sigs in a WH system, which is NOT fun.
If you must nerf DSPs, buff cores to make them more useful in WH systems, or remove the grav/ladar site spam in WH systems, or actually implement and option in the filter to only show sigs that are of a certain type
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Dr Resheph
Amarr YOU ARE NOW READING THIS LOUDLY
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Posted - 2009.03.21 22:56:00 -
[2]
What to say cept.. nerfing the probing system a week after it became useful is pretty ****.
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2009.03.21 23:06:00 -
[3]
20str deep cores were a hint of what combat probing could ("should") be in general. they also took over parts of the multispec probe for exploration, hitting the 25% hurdle more easily/faster/blah.
they did not replace the other probes due to deviation. even 0.5 combats don't necessarily land you on grid with a dic.
tl;dr more strength across larger ranges plz. deviation is the bottleneck - putting the gist back into logistics |
Gaogan
Gallente Solar Storm Sev3rance
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Posted - 2009.03.21 23:09:00 -
[4]
Looks like I started training astro 5 yet again only to have it nerfed and stop.
Good Grief....
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2009.03.22 00:03:00 -
[5]
Hmmm, if they reduce them to STR=5 then they have exactly the same STR as Core Probes just a higher maximimum range. Perhaps it is the ease with which you can use DSP to find BS instead of using Combats.
Why not just remove them altogether and increase max. size and STR on Cores? If the Combat overlap is to blame, remove ship identification from DSP so they only tell you something is there but not what.
They really are the only way reliable way to sort through the chaff in W-Space. Might still work with half STR but since Cores are essentially uselss for that purpose 5 is definitely too low.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.22 00:16:00 -
[6]
Compromise: Keep strength same, increase deviation OR cut strength half and increase deviation. Make them unable to actually find a site, but great for narrowing down the general location.
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Cadde
Gallente Gene Works Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2009.03.22 11:05:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden Compromise: Keep strength same, increase deviation OR cut strength half and increase deviation. Make them unable to actually find a site, but great for narrowing down the general location.
How about making them so even if you have a 100% hit with 4 deep space probes you can't warp to it? Then make them STRONGER so we at least can tell where sigs are but they wont be accurate enough to be warped to.
That is when you bring in core/combat probes to get that warpable result.
My opinions belong to me, you can't have them!
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Turiel Demon
Minmatar Inhumation Inc.
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Posted - 2009.03.22 11:17:00 -
[8]
or how about THEY NOT CHANGE AT ALL?
It's not like they're OP in the first place, and their current balance vs cores is just right this way; seeing as they require astro 5, that's a good requirement for being able to have that level of usefulness.
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YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2009.03.22 12:11:00 -
[9]
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 22/03/2009 12:11:42 Hunting down sites of a precise type is bad, mkay? The current nerf will level the chances of stumbling upon a given site type and allow a more even distribution of loot between players.
I was blind but now I zee.
Black Sun Empire |
ollobrains2
Gallente New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2009.03.22 12:40:00 -
[10]
comprismise advanced astrometrics level 1 gives u 8 base strength 2 gives u 11 3 gives u 14 4 gives u 17 5 gives u 20.
That way the dsp probes oculd be nerfed even tho i think it will turn people off scanning even more which ccp seems to want ah well.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.03.22 12:55:00 -
[11]
I must say that DSP are WAY too good in current state. Problem is: the nerf will make em virtually useless, because all scanning is done within 8AU range anyways. So the 64, 128 and 256 ranges wont be used at all (exception is 256au just to get sig layout in system).
Tbh CCP could change one of skills (like the scan speed one) to show what are we scanning for faster. Like 50% strength at lv0 and 10-20% str. at lv5 needed to know the sig type.
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ollobrains2
Gallente New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2009.03.22 13:08:00 -
[12]
also a very good idea
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.22 17:14:00 -
[13]
Quote: It's not like they're OP in the first place, and their current balance vs cores is just right this way; seeing as they require astro 5, that's a good requirement for being able to have that level of usefulness.
They're MASSIVELY OP in the first place. You can go into a system, dumb 4 probes, and get warpable hits on every ship in the system, in deadspace or not, within 30 seconds.
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Dave10
Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.03.22 17:28:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Quote: It's not like they're OP in the first place, and their current balance vs cores is just right this way; seeing as they require astro 5, that's a good requirement for being able to have that level of usefulness.
They're MASSIVELY OP in the first place. You can go into a system, dumb 4 probes, and get warpable hits on every ship in the system, in deadspace or not, within 30 seconds.
Agreed that theyre OP for ship scanning. Something needs to be done about that.
But nerfing them for finding sigs is a TERRIBLE idea. cores need to be buffed to make up for it, because WH space is just ridiculous for trying to use cores to filter out the grav/ladar sites out
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August Guns
Minmatar Infinite ISK.
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Posted - 2009.03.22 17:40:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden They're MASSIVELY OP in the first place. You can go into a system, dumb 4 probes, and get warpable hits on every ship in the system, in deadspace or not, within 30 seconds.
You are MASSIVELY exaggerating. There are far, far too many factors that come into play here. Systems come in different shapes and sizes, ships are scanned differently than before, and different classes/tech levels come into play.
What made deep space probes useful was that they had 4x the range of combat probes at any given strength. I don't deny that they are very powerful... but the new probing mechanic is powerful too when used correctly. This change makes DSP probes far less useful... and definately not worth training Astrometrics V.
I think an alternative is in order for these changes to DSPs. Rather than nerf the probe, nerf the skills required to use it:
Primary Skill: Astrometric V (rank 3)
Secondary Skill: Astrometric Acquisition V (rank 5) Astrometric Pinpointing V (rank 5) Astrometric Triangulation IV (rank 8) ------
My question to Kahega is, would that skill requirement be worth it? If you spent months training for it, should you be able to use it as currently implemented? August Guns |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.03.22 17:48:00 -
[16]
why triangulation 4? because you dont have it? make all 5 and it is set.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.22 18:30:00 -
[17]
Quote:
Agreed that theyre OP for ship scanning. Something needs to be done about that.
But nerfing them for finding sigs is a TERRIBLE idea. cores need to be buffed to make up for it, because WH space is just ridiculous for trying to use cores to filter out the grav/ladar sites ou
W-space isn't supposed to be easy to scan through. They're also OP for w-space.
Yes, it can take a bit of time, but it's not hard to find what you need with core probes in w-space.
Quote:
My question to Kahega is, would that skill requirement be worth it? If you spent months training for it, should you be able to use it as currently implemented?
If there was a small projectile turret that had no fitting requirements and did 3x the DPS of a 200mm autocannon II, but required Small auto Spec V, Motion prediction V, and Surgical Strike V-would it be balanced?
Raising the skill requirements for something overpowered doesn't make it less overpowered. Being able to track down stuff that ridiculously fast with that little effort is overpowered no matter how many SP it requires.
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Dave10
Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.03.22 18:56:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
Agreed that theyre OP for ship scanning. Something needs to be done about that.
But nerfing them for finding sigs is a TERRIBLE idea. cores need to be buffed to make up for it, because WH space is just ridiculous for trying to use cores to filter out the grav/ladar sites ou
W-space isn't supposed to be easy to scan through. They're also OP for w-space.
Yes, it can take a bit of time, but it's not hard to find what you need with core probes in w-space.
It's not hard to scan with cores, it's just extremely time consuming and not fun whatsoever with a poor filtering/archive system.
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Lt Angus
Caldari End Game. Dead End.
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Posted - 2009.03.22 18:57:00 -
[19]
what in the hell, deeps are what make a maxed out scanner better then a noob in a heron, hope this doesnt make it live please resize your signature to the maximum allowed file size of 24000 bytes. Navigator Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.22 19:08:00 -
[20]
Quote: It's not hard to scan with cores, it's just extremely time consuming and not fun whatsoever with a poor filtering/archive system.
Time consuming? yes, it's supposed to be. Finding your way around w-space is not supposed to be easy
Unfun? Matter of opinion.
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Dave10
Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.03.22 19:19:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Quote: It's not hard to scan with cores, it's just extremely time consuming and not fun whatsoever with a poor filtering/archive system.
Time consuming? yes, it's supposed to be. Finding your way around w-space is not supposed to be easy
Unfun? Matter of opinion.
again, you appear to be confusing easy with ridiculously monotonous, which is exactly what having to use cores in WH space is with the current filtering/archive systems
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Etien Aldragoran
DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.22 19:30:00 -
[22]
This would be horrible. If this hits live, we have no equivilent to the multipec probe. Keep the stregnth the same, but greatly increase the deviation. As it is now, if you dont use DSP to find out what's in the system, you run the chance of scanning the same site down again or even missing one simply because of the deviation on Core probes when they're at longer ranges.
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Mojihito
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Posted - 2009.03.22 19:46:00 -
[23]
So i am in the middle of training Astrometric 5 , so i basicly wasted my training time :/. Beacuse why would i need to fit luncher that uses 220 Cpu for probes that are useless ?
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.22 20:14:00 -
[24]
Quote: again, you appear to be confusing easy with ridiculously monotonous, which is exactly what having to use cores in WH space is with the current filtering/archive systems
it's not hard to look at the map marker and figure out that a hit you have is something you already scanned.
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.03.22 20:24:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Quote: again, you appear to be confusing easy with ridiculously monotonous, which is exactly what having to use cores in WH space is with the current filtering/archive systems
it's not hard to look at the map marker and figure out that a hit you have is something you already scanned.
Marker doesnt appear unless you risk warping to it. ______________________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.22 20:26:00 -
[26]
Quote: Marker doesnt appear unless you risk warping to it.
3x small shield extenders and 3x inertial stabs and I've never gone below half shield (Even when I didn't warp out right away)
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Turiel Demon
Minmatar Inhumation Inc.
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Posted - 2009.03.22 21:28:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
If there was a small projectile turret that had no fitting requirements and did 3x the DPS of a 200mm autocannon II, but required Small auto Spec V, Motion prediction V, and Surgical Strike V-would it be balanced?
Raising the skill requirements for something overpowered doesn't make it less overpowered. Being able to track down stuff that ridiculously fast with that little effort is overpowered no matter how many SP it requires.
If that super-200mm autocannon required 132 CPU AND those prereq skills, yeah that would be pretty balanced I'd say. You've not considered that DSPs require an expanded launcher, a near 15-fold increase in fitting reqs. There aren't that many ships with 205 extra CPU to spare.
As for the requirements 'not' making it 'not' overpowered, that double negative in turn doesn't make it overpowered.
If someone spends more than 60(!) days training up the various astro skills to 5 (discounting acquisition for the moment) I think that is a fair price to pay to get a significant portion cut off of probing time. Right now, that number is significantly less than 60, so I can agree that it isn't entirely balanced. I would think though, that upping the skill reqs is still preferable to removing this probing utility entirely as it has been made on the test server.
NOTE: I'm talking about signature scanning, rather than ship scanning, with which I am not sufficiently familiar to comment on its balance.
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Captain Vampire
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Posted - 2009.03.22 22:02:00 -
[28]
Just as if ship probing wasn't hard enough with the current stats. Seriously, is the aim to remove combat probing altogether?
Currently, astro V and Deep space probing made it possible to actually find ships, with this change, it will be pretty much impossible to get good hits without using 10 min and working our ass of with the clubby interface.
Please, don't make changes that affect combat probing when the goal is to nerf grav/ladar site probing. The balance is already in favor of the prey.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.22 22:40:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 22/03/2009 22:43:15
Quote: If that super-200mm autocannon required 132 CPU AND those prereq skills, yeah that would be pretty balanced I'd say. You've not considered that DSPs require an expanded launcher, a near 15-fold increase in fitting reqs. There aren't that many ships with 205 extra CPU to spare.
That's because you're not using a dedicated scannership. You just helped my argument by showing at DSP's allow people to easily navigate w-space without having to bother with a real scanning ship.
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.03.23 00:12:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Dave10 Edited by: Dave10 on 21/03/2009 21:51:29 Edited by: Dave10 on 21/03/2009 21:44:00 On the latest build (85232) deep space probes are now down to 5 base str, from their original 20.
Thought that could happen soon. Problem with DSPs is that they ARE overpowered. There is no point in using combat probes if you can use DSPs. However simply reducing their signal strength so much means that DSPs become useless overnight, except to find deep safes.
I don't understand why they don't restore the old DSPs. 5 signal base strength, but a minimum range of 8AU, not 2 like it is now. That allows DSPs to multispec decently but they couldn't be used to close on sites and on most ships. Probably even a signal str of 2.5 might be decent, but I am not sure about that.
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