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Dave10
Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.03.21 21:43:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Dave10 on 21/03/2009 21:51:29 Edited by: Dave10 on 21/03/2009 21:44:00 On the latest build (85232) deep space probes are now down to 5 base str, from their original 20.
PLEASE do not put this live. Deep space probes are currently the only way to filter out all the grav/ladar sites in WH systems - so if this goes live, it'll take 10 times longer to get the useful radar/mag/unknown sigs in a WH system, which is NOT fun.
If you must nerf DSPs, buff cores to make them more useful in WH systems, or remove the grav/ladar site spam in WH systems, or actually implement and option in the filter to only show sigs that are of a certain type
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Dr Resheph
Amarr YOU ARE NOW READING THIS LOUDLY
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Posted - 2009.03.21 22:56:00 -
[2]
What to say cept.. nerfing the probing system a week after it became useful is pretty ****.
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2009.03.21 23:06:00 -
[3]
20str deep cores were a hint of what combat probing could ("should") be in general. they also took over parts of the multispec probe for exploration, hitting the 25% hurdle more easily/faster/blah.
they did not replace the other probes due to deviation. even 0.5 combats don't necessarily land you on grid with a dic.
tl;dr more strength across larger ranges plz. deviation is the bottleneck - putting the gist back into logistics |
Gaogan
Gallente Solar Storm Sev3rance
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Posted - 2009.03.21 23:09:00 -
[4]
Looks like I started training astro 5 yet again only to have it nerfed and stop.
Good Grief....
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2009.03.22 00:03:00 -
[5]
Hmmm, if they reduce them to STR=5 then they have exactly the same STR as Core Probes just a higher maximimum range. Perhaps it is the ease with which you can use DSP to find BS instead of using Combats.
Why not just remove them altogether and increase max. size and STR on Cores? If the Combat overlap is to blame, remove ship identification from DSP so they only tell you something is there but not what.
They really are the only way reliable way to sort through the chaff in W-Space. Might still work with half STR but since Cores are essentially uselss for that purpose 5 is definitely too low.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.22 00:16:00 -
[6]
Compromise: Keep strength same, increase deviation OR cut strength half and increase deviation. Make them unable to actually find a site, but great for narrowing down the general location.
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Cadde
Gallente Gene Works Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2009.03.22 11:05:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden Compromise: Keep strength same, increase deviation OR cut strength half and increase deviation. Make them unable to actually find a site, but great for narrowing down the general location.
How about making them so even if you have a 100% hit with 4 deep space probes you can't warp to it? Then make them STRONGER so we at least can tell where sigs are but they wont be accurate enough to be warped to.
That is when you bring in core/combat probes to get that warpable result.
My opinions belong to me, you can't have them!
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Turiel Demon
Minmatar Inhumation Inc.
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Posted - 2009.03.22 11:17:00 -
[8]
or how about THEY NOT CHANGE AT ALL?
It's not like they're OP in the first place, and their current balance vs cores is just right this way; seeing as they require astro 5, that's a good requirement for being able to have that level of usefulness.
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YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2009.03.22 12:11:00 -
[9]
Edited by: YouGotRipped on 22/03/2009 12:11:42 Hunting down sites of a precise type is bad, mkay? The current nerf will level the chances of stumbling upon a given site type and allow a more even distribution of loot between players.
I was blind but now I zee.
Black Sun Empire |
ollobrains2
Gallente New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2009.03.22 12:40:00 -
[10]
comprismise advanced astrometrics level 1 gives u 8 base strength 2 gives u 11 3 gives u 14 4 gives u 17 5 gives u 20.
That way the dsp probes oculd be nerfed even tho i think it will turn people off scanning even more which ccp seems to want ah well.
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.03.22 12:55:00 -
[11]
I must say that DSP are WAY too good in current state. Problem is: the nerf will make em virtually useless, because all scanning is done within 8AU range anyways. So the 64, 128 and 256 ranges wont be used at all (exception is 256au just to get sig layout in system).
Tbh CCP could change one of skills (like the scan speed one) to show what are we scanning for faster. Like 50% strength at lv0 and 10-20% str. at lv5 needed to know the sig type.
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ollobrains2
Gallente New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2009.03.22 13:08:00 -
[12]
also a very good idea
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.22 17:14:00 -
[13]
Quote: It's not like they're OP in the first place, and their current balance vs cores is just right this way; seeing as they require astro 5, that's a good requirement for being able to have that level of usefulness.
They're MASSIVELY OP in the first place. You can go into a system, dumb 4 probes, and get warpable hits on every ship in the system, in deadspace or not, within 30 seconds.
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Dave10
Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.03.22 17:28:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Quote: It's not like they're OP in the first place, and their current balance vs cores is just right this way; seeing as they require astro 5, that's a good requirement for being able to have that level of usefulness.
They're MASSIVELY OP in the first place. You can go into a system, dumb 4 probes, and get warpable hits on every ship in the system, in deadspace or not, within 30 seconds.
Agreed that theyre OP for ship scanning. Something needs to be done about that.
But nerfing them for finding sigs is a TERRIBLE idea. cores need to be buffed to make up for it, because WH space is just ridiculous for trying to use cores to filter out the grav/ladar sites out
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August Guns
Minmatar Infinite ISK.
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Posted - 2009.03.22 17:40:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden They're MASSIVELY OP in the first place. You can go into a system, dumb 4 probes, and get warpable hits on every ship in the system, in deadspace or not, within 30 seconds.
You are MASSIVELY exaggerating. There are far, far too many factors that come into play here. Systems come in different shapes and sizes, ships are scanned differently than before, and different classes/tech levels come into play.
What made deep space probes useful was that they had 4x the range of combat probes at any given strength. I don't deny that they are very powerful... but the new probing mechanic is powerful too when used correctly. This change makes DSP probes far less useful... and definately not worth training Astrometrics V.
I think an alternative is in order for these changes to DSPs. Rather than nerf the probe, nerf the skills required to use it:
Primary Skill: Astrometric V (rank 3)
Secondary Skill: Astrometric Acquisition V (rank 5) Astrometric Pinpointing V (rank 5) Astrometric Triangulation IV (rank 8) ------
My question to Kahega is, would that skill requirement be worth it? If you spent months training for it, should you be able to use it as currently implemented? August Guns |
Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.03.22 17:48:00 -
[16]
why triangulation 4? because you dont have it? make all 5 and it is set.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.22 18:30:00 -
[17]
Quote:
Agreed that theyre OP for ship scanning. Something needs to be done about that.
But nerfing them for finding sigs is a TERRIBLE idea. cores need to be buffed to make up for it, because WH space is just ridiculous for trying to use cores to filter out the grav/ladar sites ou
W-space isn't supposed to be easy to scan through. They're also OP for w-space.
Yes, it can take a bit of time, but it's not hard to find what you need with core probes in w-space.
Quote:
My question to Kahega is, would that skill requirement be worth it? If you spent months training for it, should you be able to use it as currently implemented?
If there was a small projectile turret that had no fitting requirements and did 3x the DPS of a 200mm autocannon II, but required Small auto Spec V, Motion prediction V, and Surgical Strike V-would it be balanced?
Raising the skill requirements for something overpowered doesn't make it less overpowered. Being able to track down stuff that ridiculously fast with that little effort is overpowered no matter how many SP it requires.
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Dave10
Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.03.22 18:56:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Quote:
Agreed that theyre OP for ship scanning. Something needs to be done about that.
But nerfing them for finding sigs is a TERRIBLE idea. cores need to be buffed to make up for it, because WH space is just ridiculous for trying to use cores to filter out the grav/ladar sites ou
W-space isn't supposed to be easy to scan through. They're also OP for w-space.
Yes, it can take a bit of time, but it's not hard to find what you need with core probes in w-space.
It's not hard to scan with cores, it's just extremely time consuming and not fun whatsoever with a poor filtering/archive system.
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Lt Angus
Caldari End Game. Dead End.
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Posted - 2009.03.22 18:57:00 -
[19]
what in the hell, deeps are what make a maxed out scanner better then a noob in a heron, hope this doesnt make it live please resize your signature to the maximum allowed file size of 24000 bytes. Navigator Shhhh, Im hunting Badgers |
Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.22 19:08:00 -
[20]
Quote: It's not hard to scan with cores, it's just extremely time consuming and not fun whatsoever with a poor filtering/archive system.
Time consuming? yes, it's supposed to be. Finding your way around w-space is not supposed to be easy
Unfun? Matter of opinion.
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Dave10
Celtic Anarchy Force Of Evil
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Posted - 2009.03.22 19:19:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Quote: It's not hard to scan with cores, it's just extremely time consuming and not fun whatsoever with a poor filtering/archive system.
Time consuming? yes, it's supposed to be. Finding your way around w-space is not supposed to be easy
Unfun? Matter of opinion.
again, you appear to be confusing easy with ridiculously monotonous, which is exactly what having to use cores in WH space is with the current filtering/archive systems
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Etien Aldragoran
DarkStar 1 GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.03.22 19:30:00 -
[22]
This would be horrible. If this hits live, we have no equivilent to the multipec probe. Keep the stregnth the same, but greatly increase the deviation. As it is now, if you dont use DSP to find out what's in the system, you run the chance of scanning the same site down again or even missing one simply because of the deviation on Core probes when they're at longer ranges.
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Mojihito
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Posted - 2009.03.22 19:46:00 -
[23]
So i am in the middle of training Astrometric 5 , so i basicly wasted my training time :/. Beacuse why would i need to fit luncher that uses 220 Cpu for probes that are useless ?
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.22 20:14:00 -
[24]
Quote: again, you appear to be confusing easy with ridiculously monotonous, which is exactly what having to use cores in WH space is with the current filtering/archive systems
it's not hard to look at the map marker and figure out that a hit you have is something you already scanned.
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2009.03.22 20:24:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Quote: again, you appear to be confusing easy with ridiculously monotonous, which is exactly what having to use cores in WH space is with the current filtering/archive systems
it's not hard to look at the map marker and figure out that a hit you have is something you already scanned.
Marker doesnt appear unless you risk warping to it. ______________________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.22 20:26:00 -
[26]
Quote: Marker doesnt appear unless you risk warping to it.
3x small shield extenders and 3x inertial stabs and I've never gone below half shield (Even when I didn't warp out right away)
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Turiel Demon
Minmatar Inhumation Inc.
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Posted - 2009.03.22 21:28:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
If there was a small projectile turret that had no fitting requirements and did 3x the DPS of a 200mm autocannon II, but required Small auto Spec V, Motion prediction V, and Surgical Strike V-would it be balanced?
Raising the skill requirements for something overpowered doesn't make it less overpowered. Being able to track down stuff that ridiculously fast with that little effort is overpowered no matter how many SP it requires.
If that super-200mm autocannon required 132 CPU AND those prereq skills, yeah that would be pretty balanced I'd say. You've not considered that DSPs require an expanded launcher, a near 15-fold increase in fitting reqs. There aren't that many ships with 205 extra CPU to spare.
As for the requirements 'not' making it 'not' overpowered, that double negative in turn doesn't make it overpowered.
If someone spends more than 60(!) days training up the various astro skills to 5 (discounting acquisition for the moment) I think that is a fair price to pay to get a significant portion cut off of probing time. Right now, that number is significantly less than 60, so I can agree that it isn't entirely balanced. I would think though, that upping the skill reqs is still preferable to removing this probing utility entirely as it has been made on the test server.
NOTE: I'm talking about signature scanning, rather than ship scanning, with which I am not sufficiently familiar to comment on its balance.
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Captain Vampire
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Posted - 2009.03.22 22:02:00 -
[28]
Just as if ship probing wasn't hard enough with the current stats. Seriously, is the aim to remove combat probing altogether?
Currently, astro V and Deep space probing made it possible to actually find ships, with this change, it will be pretty much impossible to get good hits without using 10 min and working our ass of with the clubby interface.
Please, don't make changes that affect combat probing when the goal is to nerf grav/ladar site probing. The balance is already in favor of the prey.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.22 22:40:00 -
[29]
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 22/03/2009 22:43:15
Quote: If that super-200mm autocannon required 132 CPU AND those prereq skills, yeah that would be pretty balanced I'd say. You've not considered that DSPs require an expanded launcher, a near 15-fold increase in fitting reqs. There aren't that many ships with 205 extra CPU to spare.
That's because you're not using a dedicated scannership. You just helped my argument by showing at DSP's allow people to easily navigate w-space without having to bother with a real scanning ship.
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.03.23 00:12:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Dave10 Edited by: Dave10 on 21/03/2009 21:51:29 Edited by: Dave10 on 21/03/2009 21:44:00 On the latest build (85232) deep space probes are now down to 5 base str, from their original 20.
Thought that could happen soon. Problem with DSPs is that they ARE overpowered. There is no point in using combat probes if you can use DSPs. However simply reducing their signal strength so much means that DSPs become useless overnight, except to find deep safes.
I don't understand why they don't restore the old DSPs. 5 signal base strength, but a minimum range of 8AU, not 2 like it is now. That allows DSPs to multispec decently but they couldn't be used to close on sites and on most ships. Probably even a signal str of 2.5 might be decent, but I am not sure about that.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS IDLE EMPIRE
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Posted - 2009.03.23 02:36:00 -
[31]
right, so they are a bit op as is. but I am not familiar enough with probe mechanics to know what a 5 base strength means. when you spread them out will they have a strength of 0.1 and not able to get a hit on anything or something
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2009.03.23 04:21:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Dave10
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Quote: It's not like they're OP in the first place, and their current balance vs cores is just right this way; seeing as they require astro 5, that's a good requirement for being able to have that level of usefulness.
They're MASSIVELY OP in the first place. You can go into a system, dumb 4 probes, and get warpable hits on every ship in the system, in deadspace or not, within 30 seconds.
Agreed that theyre OP for ship scanning. Something needs to be done about that.[...]
for BS and (stupidly) extended BCs, this may hold true. but not for 80% of pvp-eve in (t2) cruisers and _certainly_ not for frigs.
i'm running lvl4's in a vaga in low-sec every now and then; the time it takes for them to get to me after i had the first combat/deep probe on my 3au dir scan would have been long enough to organize a fleet from 5-10j out (depending on amount of stages) and i could fit eccm instead of this cov-ops killing warp disruptor -.- - putting the gist back into logistics |
Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.23 05:12:00 -
[33]
Sounds to me like they simply suck, then. I'm able to probe down frigates with combat probes without too much difficulty.
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Roemy Schneider
BINFORD
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Posted - 2009.03.23 06:11:00 -
[34]
fraps then... i'm tired of these "i can probe everything in 10 seconds" posts. - putting the gist back into logistics |
Snow Banshee
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.03.23 07:13:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Space Wanderer
Originally by: Dave10 Edited by: Dave10 on 21/03/2009 21:51:29 Edited by: Dave10 on 21/03/2009 21:44:00 On the latest build (85232) deep space probes are now down to 5 base str, from their original 20.
Thought that could happen soon. Problem with DSPs is that they ARE overpowered. There is no point in using combat probes if you can use DSPs. However simply reducing their signal strength so much means that DSPs become useless overnight, except to find deep safes.
I don't understand why they don't restore the old DSPs. 5 signal base strength, but a minimum range of 8AU, not 2 like it is now. That allows DSPs to multispec decently but they couldn't be used to close on sites and on most ships. Probably even a signal str of 2.5 might be decent, but I am not sure about that.
Up for this. I like.
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Ombey
Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.03.23 08:00:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Ombey on 23/03/2009 08:01:10
Originally by: Blane Xero Marker doesnt appear unless you risk warping to it.
1. Kill ship speed 2. Initiate warp to target 3. Immediately cancel warp. 4. If marker doesn't appear, initiate warp to at 100km
The first warp will always drag you to 0m if the place hasn't spawned yet. Once spawned, you can warp to 100km np.
2d EveMaps|My blog
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Deva Blackfire
D00M.
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Posted - 2009.03.23 08:56:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Roemy Schneider fraps then... i'm tired of these "i can probe everything in 10 seconds" posts.
CBA to fraps but:
1. put DSP at 256au, check for sigs 2. put 3 more DPS, set them all at 8AU, move em a bit to get square 3. move all probes so the cente of square is on planet - scan
At point 3 you get all signatures around planet as known. Only like 5% of sigs will remain without type - this means you can change range to 4au on all probes and do scan again usually finding radar/magneto sites in Wspace.
First (8au scan) will give you warpins on most sites instantly. SO from start to 1st warpin it is 5+10+5 seconds (10sec for setting probes if you are really slow). 20 seconds now. If you need 4au warpin add another 5-8 seconds. So 25-28 seconds. If you are unlycky and need 2au range (rare) add another 5-8 making it 30-36 seconds.
So most sites are findable under 1 minute. Same is for ships. This is not "player skill" - this is just smashing button as fast as you can.
But unfortunately the change will mean DSP get useless (same str. as core, higher deviation) and scanning sites will become tedious again (o wait, i have been at this spot already...)
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ollobrains2
Gallente New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2009.03.23 10:10:00 -
[38]
and we see a return to scan grind. Which is exactly what ccp want to accomplish with this
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Lady Spank
Amarr Sekret Kool Klubb
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Posted - 2009.03.23 11:36:00 -
[39]
I really think the strength should stay more or less the same but reduce their minimum range to 8au.
this lets them do their two key jobs well (Signature map of the system and the ability to lock down signal types early) while not making the cores / combats useless. Which is their main overpowering advantage at the moment.
This still leaves them rather overpowered regarding lockdown of multiple BS and BC in systems with little effort. Perhaps they can maintain sensor strength for exploration signatures but be weaker for ships?
It would help if we could hear from CCP regarding their concerns and intentions with this nerf.
And whine whine I'm training astrometrics V only for THIS nerf? Well, having 8 probes is very useful in some situations at least.
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ollobrains2
Gallente New Eve Order Holdings
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Posted - 2009.03.23 14:41:00 -
[40]
CCP intend to ram this one thro was on sisi and the response was pretty well its a balancing issue and they wish to repalce easy scan with scan grind yawn boring spend 3 hours finding wormhole exits from wspace again rubbish
Oh well
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Krishan13
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Posted - 2009.03.23 15:37:00 -
[41]
BETTER IDEA:
Add in a 'Multispectrum Deep Space Probe'. Make IT have the 5 base strength.
Change the existing Deep Space Probe to only work on sigs. Remove the ship location ability from the standard DS probe.
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Pliskkenn
Minmatar Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.03.23 16:29:00 -
[42]
Edited by: Pliskkenn on 23/03/2009 16:32:07 Ugh, thats a bit much. Bit heavy handed I think but eh, you play EVE Long enough you're bound to get punched in the face with a change eventually.
I mean, a 50% cut in strength, that wouldn't be as bad or painful. ---
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Malena Panic
Gallente Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.03.23 16:30:00 -
[43]
CCP why do you hate people who have Astrometrics V trained?
That's *twice* you've nerfed this skill. c'mon, leave it alone. ... |
Marlenus
Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.03.23 17:43:00 -
[44]
Early in the first testing phase on SISI, Greyscale indicated that the only reason they needed DSPs was to enable finding deep safes. It sounds like this is a change designed to limit the DSPs to that intended role.
Ah, found the quote: Originally by: CCP Greyscale It's not intended to act as a multispec; the main reason for re-including it is to allow the scanning of deep safes. In an ideal world there'd just be the two probe types.
Now, don't get me wrong, I like the current functionality, and will miss it. But if you'll remember, the original developer statements of intent with regard to wormhole space was that access (and especially escape) was supposed to be hard. Right now, it really isn't if you have DSPs. If this change goes live, we'll know they really meant it. ------------------ Ironfleet.com |
Tasha Voronina
Caldari Caldari Navy Reserve Force
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Posted - 2009.03.23 17:47:00 -
[45]
So, to sum up - decent ideas I've read in here (and/or had myself):
-Increase minimum range to 8 AU -Increase deviation on the DSP -Increase DSP scanning time (say, 30-60 sec instead of 10)
Combine this and you've successfully nerfed DSPs for ship scanning but not entirely for exploration, as far as I can tell.
BUT: Keep their sensor strength - nice probing system is good, nice and convenient probing system is better (goes for the exploration part of it here) --- Sig will be updated shortly |
Captain Vampire
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Posted - 2009.03.23 17:52:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Marlenus Early in the first testing phase on SISI, Greyscale indicated that the only reason they needed DSPs was to enable finding deep safes. It sounds like this is a change designed to limit the DSPs to that intended role.
Ah, found the quote: Originally by: CCP Greyscale It's not intended to act as a multispec; the main reason for re-including it is to allow the scanning of deep safes. In an ideal world there'd just be the two probe types.
Now, don't get me wrong, I like the current functionality, and will miss it. But if you'll remember, the original developer statements of intent with regard to wormhole space was that access (and especially escape) was supposed to be hard. Right now, it really isn't if you have DSPs. If this change goes live, we'll know they really meant it.
Precisely, it makes sense from a PvE point of view, though a filtering mechanism is badly needed.
However, this change will break DSPs intended feature, finding ships. It will be almost impossible to get quick hits on cruisers with this nerf. And the worst part is, Greyscale doesn't care about ship probing. He actually stated that this new system made ship scanning harder, and that people warping between safespots should be uncatchable. This new nerf shifts the advantage to the victim even further. This "nerf/fix" is probably one of the lamest excuses so far to make eve safer for ratters.
Keep PvP and PvE probing separated god danm it. There is no point trying to balance both at the same time. I'd rather go back to the old system for PvP probing
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Marlenus
Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.03.23 18:45:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Captain Vampire However, this change will break DSPs intended feature, finding ships.
I honestly don't know where you are getting this. Back when they were Observators, DSPs were useless for finding ships; at best, they gave you an idea where to go to launch shorter ranged probes. In their current incarnation, the quote I mentioned suggests that's also the current intent of them -- to let you localize a deep safespot so you can probe the ships in it with better probes.
As for PvP probing, Greyscale made it brutally clear, in repeated comments, that preserving the previous PvP probing balance was never a design requirement, because they have an overall "intel suite" upgrade planned for the nearish future. Sucks, but it makes sense in the overall scheme of things -- why spend enormous effort on fine tuning something you're planning on changing (again) in six months or a year? ------------------ Ironfleet.com |
Captain Vampire
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Posted - 2009.03.23 20:31:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Marlenus
Originally by: Captain Vampire However, this change will break DSPs intended feature, finding ships.
I honestly don't know where you are getting this. Back when they were Observators, DSPs were useless for finding ships; at best, they gave you an idea where to go to launch shorter ranged probes. In their current incarnation, the quote I mentioned suggests that's also the current intent of them -- to let you localize a deep safespot so you can probe the ships in it with better probes.
As for PvP probing, Greyscale made it brutally clear, in repeated comments, that preserving the previous PvP probing balance was never a design requirement, because they have an overall "intel suite" upgrade planned for the nearish future. Sucks, but it makes sense in the overall scheme of things -- why spend enormous effort on fine tuning something you're planning on changing (again) in six months or a year?
Finding ships = deep safes, right? Unless plexes tend to deep safe?
So, nerfing the strength of DPSs will affect PvP probing, and frankly, they were not OP at PvP probing. That is why I ask for a separate PvP system, because "fixing" the "I can scan everything with my BS" problem is killing the PvP probing system.
And btw, why on earth would anyone in their right mind design a PvE mechanic, apply it to PvP so it might be balanced when the "intel suite" is revisited. The devs has stated countless times that PvP is the core of EvE, and some of us still believe that. Though, the way Greyscale has handled this makes me doubt. The old system was much better for ship probing. Tbh, you don't have to be a genius to realize that micromanaging widget movement is not a great PvP mechanic.
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Jalum Krayal
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Posted - 2009.03.23 20:44:00 -
[49]
What they really need to do is let us filter out certain signatures. Many wormholes have 15-30 signatures all within 8au of each other. Either let us ignore certain ones (lolgravimetriclol) or let us somehow keep track of them by marking them, so we aren't re-scanning for the same signature over and over.
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Mistral Sud
Minmatar Black Box Corp.
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Posted - 2009.03.24 00:19:00 -
[50]
Ohhhhhh nOOOOOOOOO! dont touch my deep saves! agreed they are op for scanning ships!by far! but not that way! give us that history thingy or let us filter the sites, something! just making them completly useless is not the way to go! scanning is really fun now dont destroy it. restrict them to 8 au is ok too! im fine with all just making them useless is not ok:(
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Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.03.24 09:30:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Marlenus Now, don't get me wrong, I like the current functionality, and will miss it. But if you'll remember, the original developer statements of intent with regard to wormhole space was that access (and especially escape) was supposed to be hard. Right now, it really isn't if you have DSPs. If this change goes live, we'll know they really meant it.
Yes, that's true. And I am one of those who complained the loudest that scanning is too easy, so I wouldn't be too upset by the change. Still, there should be SOME advantage, even slight, in having astro V. Currently it's pretty useless (8 probes instead of 7 just doesn't seem useful) except in pvp.
On second thought, the chance to have a look at unbiased signature levels in the entire system is not that bad, although not as effective as multispeccing the whole system. Maybe it won't be as bad for good probers, and it will induce a little bit of selection among explorers, at least for wh exploration. Might not be as bad. Well I suppose we'll have to see how it rolls.
I just feel for MM spredsheet, since all the base strengths would have to be revisited AGAIN. :-)
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Cyberus
Caldari Final Destination. Scalar Federation
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Posted - 2009.03.24 10:09:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Dave10 Edited by: Dave10 on 21/03/2009 21:51:29 Edited by: Dave10 on 21/03/2009 21:44:00 On the latest build (85232) deep space probes are now down to 5 base str, from their original 20.
PLEASE do not put this live. Deep space probes are currently the only way to filter out all the grav/ladar sites in WH systems - so if this goes live, it'll take 10 times longer to get the useful radar/mag/unknown sigs in a WH system, which is NOT fun.
If you must nerf DSPs, buff cores to make them more useful in WH systems, or remove the grav/ladar site spam in WH systems, or actually implement and option in the filter to only show sigs that are of a certain type
This! Wh space will become bad again ===== * Your signature file is broken. Please use one that will display - Fallout |
Marlenus
Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.03.24 15:03:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Space Wanderer Still, there should be SOME advantage, even slight, in having astro V. Currently it's pretty useless (8 probes instead of 7 just doesn't seem useful) except in pvp.
Well, I'm one of the people who used to spend a lot of time with Observators looking for deep safes, so that function of the Deep Space Probes remains of interest to me. But most of the ways of making deep safes have been removed over time, so it's a declining value.
Now that the patch notes are out, I'm a little surprised to see that they are going ahead with the change to Deep Space Probes without simultaneously putting the "archive" back in or giving us some other method to help with sorting through lots of results. I welcome the challenge, myself, but there's going to be some epic whining from many quarters. ------------------ Ironfleet.com |
Space Wanderer
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Posted - 2009.03.24 16:44:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Marlenus Edited to add: I actually find myself using all eight probes fairly often. [snip] The more probes out, the easier this process is.
I didn't use much eight probes together, mainly because of DSPs. Not that they are not good for multispeccing anymore it's probably a good time to use 8 probes concentrated on a single planet to try to multispec many sigs.
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Marlenus
Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.03.24 17:00:00 -
[55]
Yeah, usually I start with five probes, adding more if I need to move the net "in" and there's an outlier sig that I don't have fully identified or pinned down yet. With DSPs, I don't get to needing eight very often. Once I move to Cores, I expect I'll be using eight all the time and wanting a dozen. ------------------ Ironfleet.com |
Hamatitio
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2009.03.24 18:32:00 -
[56]
patch notes are out, however it doesnt say what they lowered the strength to, maybe we can cross our fingers and pray they only brought it down to 10 :|
Hijack this |
B1FF
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Posted - 2009.03.24 21:03:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Blane Xero
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Quote: again, you appear to be confusing easy with ridiculously monotonous, which is exactly what having to use cores in WH space is with the current filtering/archive systems
it's not hard to look at the map marker and figure out that a hit you have is something you already scanned.
Marker doesnt appear unless you risk warping to it.
Warp then cancel will create marker.
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Verite Rendition
Caldari F.R.E.E. Explorer Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.03.24 22:29:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Hamatitio patch notes are out, however it doesnt say what they lowered the strength to, maybe we can cross our fingers and pray they only brought it down to 10 :|
Deep Space Scanner Probe I and its variations have had their strength reduced. ---- FREE Explorer Lead Megalomanic EVE Null-Sec Player Influence Map http://dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/Veritefw/FWinf |
Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.24 23:55:00 -
[59]
Quote: Marker doesnt appear unless you risk warping to it.
Then slap some shield extenders and inertia stabs on your ship. Tis what I did.
Also, SURPRISEPATCHNOTES:
Quote: # Warping to an encounter site at range will now work the first time you warp there. Previously your ship would land at 0km from the beacon no matter what range was set for the æwarp toÆ command.
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
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Posted - 2009.03.25 09:49:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Dave10 On the latest build (85232) deep space probes are now down to 5 base str, from their original 20.
I'm still kinda baffled by this. Why does CCP keep using such hamfisted nerfs? It'd make alot more sense to have just increased the minimum range for a DSP. Currently you can shrink them down to 2au. Shoulda just increased that minimum to 8au. Would still get enough deviation in there to require Combats or Cores to narrow it down.
DSPs were powerful. DSPs made Astro V worth it. Kinda like Cruiser V for a HAC makes it worth it. T2 cruiser is superior to T1 counterpart in just about every way.
DSPs at strength 5? Not superior to Cores. Not stronger. Not worth it. Just gives crappy results at longer ranges.
Taxman VII: Kingdom of Vlad
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Polcor Rodal
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.03.25 10:46:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Polcor Rodal on 25/03/2009 11:01:49
Originally by: Malena Panic CCP why do you hate people who have Astrometrics V trained?
That's *twice* you've nerfed this skill. c'mon, leave it alone.
Because one of the biggest problem in eve is the timebased skillsystem. Nobody trains Skills like Astrometric on V - unless you are playing longterm, where a 2 week skill is highly appreciated.
Problem with Astro V is not that you get better, the problem is that you reach an utterly new level of usefullness for which Astro V is the entry, not the end.
Watching eve getting simplified for nearly 3 years now, and every year we have one or two times when they (have to ?) nerf the vets (or at least the high SP chars).
Face it. Eve is broken the seed was planted from the beginning, and without a game redesign it cant get fixed.
Create an alt, burn all you money from your main while pirating, and say goodbye to eve. The game is "evolving" towards the average.
And sooner or later there will be something new on the market. Maybe even from CCP. Who knows
I mean they have drawn away their senior developer crew long ago, to develop World of Darkness - which will be released "soon". Guess Eve is just the cash cow to fund this. So make it attractive for everyone.
Take care, bears. |
Iceversaka
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Posted - 2009.03.25 11:44:00 -
[62]
This will effectively neutralize the advantages of the new system and by proxy Wormholes.
There is nobody who can effectively convince me that not even having the ability to "Mark" contacts before you get to 100 percent is just hard instead of just insane and a time waster.
I agree that these probes are overpowered. yet that has nothing to do with their ability to filter through the crap YOU CCP filled your precious new wormholes with.
I understand that working in WH space is supposed to be difficult but now its just not worth doing much more than a bit of sleeper looting. Is this what you are intending to do CCP? More punishment for those who dare not spend 10 hours a day in EVE?
Being able to pinpoint quickly with these probes is wrong but now they are useless at the role you TRAINED so long for..
Please reverse this CCP
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Nyota Sol
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Posted - 2009.03.25 18:45:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden Compromise: Keep strength same, increase deviation OR cut strength half and increase deviation. Make them unable to actually find a site, but great for narrowing down the general location.
I love this idea.
I don't know the reasons they have for changing it other than assuming they want to keep the PvP power reasonable, but this alternate approach could solve that.
Keeping high strength and increasing deviation would make it so you need other probes for PvP purposes since you wouldnt be able to hit 100%, while keeping these vital for those wanting to sort through lots of exploration sites.
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Nyota Sol
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Posted - 2009.03.25 19:02:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Nyota Sol on 25/03/2009 19:03:45
Originally by: Iceversaka This will effectively neutralize the advantages of the new system and by proxy Wormholes.
There is nobody who can effectively convince me that not even having the ability to "Mark" contacts before you get to 100 percent is just hard instead of just insane and a time waster.
I agree that these probes are overpowered. yet that has nothing to do with their ability to filter through the crap YOU CCP filled your precious new wormholes with.
I understand that working in WH space is supposed to be difficult but now its just not worth doing much more than a bit of sleeper looting. Is this what you are intending to do CCP? More punishment for those who dare not spend 10 hours a day in EVE?
Being able to pinpoint quickly with these probes is wrong but now they are useless at the role you TRAINED so long for..
Please reverse this CCP
Let me preface this with my saying i am a new player.
I absolutely agree with these comments.
DSP represent, to me, the ability to get beyond the limits of core probes and to SORT THROUGH ALL THE SIGNATURES in w-space. I understand that the DSP may cause serious imbalances for PvP, but using deviation to resolve that problem seems much better than to nerf the strength of the probes.
If they nerf them then i no longer see a point to astro 5, DSP and even expandeds for exploration. There is nothing gained in terms of saving time sorting through sigs. It might be more balanced if they had implemented an archive/history feature at the same time as this change.
To me, the exciting aspect of exploration is the risk and reward of doing something that requires some adventuring and delayed gratification. I respect that folks feel too many people can explore now, but if you really carefully study the markets i think you can see there is actually NOT some explosion in exploration-based items (not counting t3 salv). Ironically, there does not seem to be nearly as much new (k-space) exploration going on as we all seem to believe.
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CrestoftheStars
Caldari Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2009.03.25 20:56:00 -
[65]
maybe they did it becouse it was becomming too easy to use them ^^ but in my oppinion it is okey for now, sets up the price for everything to do with probing :P ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.03.25 23:18:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Blane Xero
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Quote: again, you appear to be confusing easy with ridiculously monotonous, which is exactly what having to use cores in WH space is with the current filtering/archive systems
it's not hard to look at the map marker and figure out that a hit you have is something you already scanned.
Marker doesnt appear unless you risk warping to it.
Marker seems appear when you hit the warp button, provided that you actually would have landed on grid. At that point you can cancel the warp. Sorry if that's already been said.
I still won't be happy until I can bookmark those markers without actually needing to visit the grid.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
SDragoon
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Posted - 2009.03.26 04:29:00 -
[67]
With this change DSP are going to become next to useless. I already hardly use combat probes at 32 AU much less 64. Why in the world would I want to use one at 1024 AU? Can't believe I wasted 12 days training astro 5 just in time for the nerf.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.26 06:04:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 26/03/2009 06:06:44
Originally by: SDragoon With this change DSP are going to become next to useless. I already hardly use combat probes at 32 AU much less 64. Why in the world would I want to use one at 1024 AU? Can't believe I wasted 12 days training astro 5 just in time for the nerf.
Deep safes.
Wormholes were an addition to the EXPLORATION profession. Surprise: If you don't like probing, you wont like the new wormholes.
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Iceversaka
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Posted - 2009.03.26 10:38:00 -
[69]
In before patch...
PLEASE CCP do not do this! Give it one more patch worth of time to find a better way! Please!
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Gaogan
Gallente Solar Storm Sev3rance
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Posted - 2009.03.26 19:36:00 -
[70]
Please put the str back and nerf the deviation instead!
Also Sister's Deep probes are now EXACTLY as horrible as the standard.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2009.03.26 20:19:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 26/03/2009 06:06:44
Originally by: SDragoon With this change DSP are going to become next to useless. I already hardly use combat probes at 32 AU much less 64. Why in the world would I want to use one at 1024 AU? Can't believe I wasted 12 days training astro 5 just in time for the nerf.
Deep safes.
Wormholes were an addition to the EXPLORATION profession. Surprise: If you don't like probing, you wont like the new wormholes.
People keep saying "deep safes" but how "deep" can a safespot really be?
If you see a big gap between outlying and inner planets just drop a probe out there. A few at 8AU will cover most of a system and if for some reason they cannot a little readjustment and a second scan should manage.
Even the very fastest ships in EVE cannot get anywhere near fast enough to drive out of range of an 8AU bubble (4AU radius). Even at 5,000 m/s you have to drive non-stop for close to four years. Not going to happen.
-------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2009.03.26 20:52:00 -
[72]
Deep safes are from before speed was limited. Twin-MWD ships could be used to reach ludicrous speeds and probes allowed warps to deviancy hits making for extreme ranges.
There are spots >1000AU off plane in circulation, so they go pretty deep
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Frobos
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Posted - 2009.03.26 20:57:00 -
[73]
If CCP thought the search for ships was too easy, why didn't they just make ships harder to detect instead of messing with the probes -- at least as much as they did?
So instead of nerfing the probes, nerf the ship's signature returned to a scan probe. I would hope that somewhere in the equations is a value for how much signal is returned to any probe.
I also agree with the suggestions of modifying the other Astro skills, especially the triangulation related ones.
This way someone who really wants to find ships, will first be better off having Astro-5 (2 days away for me) and they simply won't be able to jump in system, dump a single probe, wait 10 seconds and have a list of 100% sigs for all the ships in system that they can warp to. They will actually have to work a little harder for it.
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Perry
Amarr The X-Trading Company RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.03.26 21:01:00 -
[74]
It's dead, Jim.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2009.03.26 21:20:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 26/03/2009 21:21:47
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Deep safes are from before speed was limited. Twin-MWD ships could be used to reach ludicrous speeds and probes allowed warps to deviancy hits making for extreme ranges.
There are spots >1000AU off plane in circulation, so they go pretty deep
I thought CCP deemed those an exploit?
Once upon a time there was a nifty little trick that could get you thousands of AU from a star (was very easy to do...you'd literally be in warp for 10 minutes or more). CCP eventually plugged that hole and if memory serves said such deep space safes were a no-no.
Been a long time though.
ETA: Waaay back in the day you could stack as many MWD as you wanted on a ship. A corp mate of mine loaded up a Scorpion with all the MWD he could cram on. IIRC he was still accelerating when he capped out at over 3,000,000 m/s.
Was a comedy fit....just wanted to see what he could do. Those were fun days though.
-------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Rod Pliskin
United Industries LTD. Shadow Empire.
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Posted - 2009.03.26 22:26:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden Deep safes.
Honestly, how much of the Eve populace cares about Deep safes? Let's be realistic here, Deep Space Probes are pretty much useless. |
Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.26 23:02:00 -
[77]
Yes, they pretty much are, but CCP wanted to make sure that any deep safes that -do- exist can be probed out.
Quote: I thought CCP deemed those an exploit?
No, they just stopped you from making them. Many still exist.
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Rod Pliskin
United Industries LTD. Shadow Empire.
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Posted - 2009.03.26 23:11:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Rod Pliskin on 26/03/2009 23:12:42
Originally by: Kahega Amielden Yes, they pretty much are, but CCP wanted to make sure that any deep safes that -do- exist can be probed out.
Quote: I thought CCP deemed those an exploit?
No, they just stopped you from making them. Many still exist.
Doesn't make sense to create 1 probe, that requires 14 days of training for a level 5 skill, just to find or TRY to find the 200 or so deep safes that exist in the game, or the ones that people even still use.
Remove Deep Space probes, give Combat probes 200+AU range with lvl 4 Astrometrics requirement, boost strength of both Core and Combat probes and I think that would make more sense. |
Rod Pliskin
United Industries LTD. Shadow Empire.
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Posted - 2009.03.26 23:16:00 -
[79]
And to add... make Astrometrics give a range bonus to Combat probes and strength bonus to Core probes.
At least then it will give some of us who did train Astrometrics 5 something worth having.
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Ahz
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Posted - 2009.03.26 23:48:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Dave10 On the latest build (85232) deep space probes are now down to 5 base str, from their original 20.
Wish I'd read this before I allowed myself to log off in a wormhole system. Used to take me 5 minutes to scan myself out again.
Now...
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Henglar
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Posted - 2009.03.27 00:51:00 -
[81]
Rhis change doesnt make sense to me. Deep Space are now just useless! Why fit an expanded launcher now? Can we have at least have a statement from a dev why this change was made? This is so frustrating.
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Kahega Amielden
Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas
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Posted - 2009.03.27 01:29:00 -
[82]
Quote:
Doesn't make sense to create 1 probe, that requires 14 days of training for a level 5 skill, just to find or TRY to find the 200 or so deep safes that exist in the game, or the ones that people even still use.
Remove Deep Space probes, give Combat probes 200+AU range with lvl 4 Astrometrics requirement, boost strength of both Core and Combat probes and I think that would make more sense.
I dunno why it requires Astro V either, but the old Observator probes did too.
No, core and combat probes don't need a strength increase.
Quote: Rhis change doesnt make sense to me. Deep Space are now just useless! Why fit an expanded launcher now? Can we have at least have a statement from a dev why this change was made?
Combat probes?
Also, it was changed because they were never intended to be anything other than the Apocrypha equivalent of observators. They screwed up and forgot that the higher base range of the deep space probes would give them WTFOMG strength.
Quote: Wish I'd read this before I allowed myself to log off in a wormhole system. Used to take me 5 minutes to scan myself out again.
This, THIS is exactly why the change was made.
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Henglar
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Posted - 2009.03.27 01:49:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Kahega Amielden
Quote: This change doesnt make sense to me. Deep Space are now just useless! Why fit an expanded launcher now? Can we have at least have a statement from a dev why this change was made?
Combat probes?
Also, it was changed because they were never intended to be anything other than the Apocrypha equivalent of observators. They screwed up and forgot that the higher base range of the deep space probes would give them WTFOMG strength.
Quote: Wish I'd read this before I allowed myself to log off in a wormhole system. Used to take me 5 minutes to scan myself out again.
This, THIS is exactly why the change was made.
Now than tell me, what are DSP good for now? I just dont use DSPs anymore because Cores are better now in every way except the range. But 32AU are sufficient for everything.
Currently scanning for signatures is not much fun in Wormholes except you want to mine. Of course you can still find other sites but you have to scan doen every single signature indivitually to determine its type. This is not fun. This is the same easy and boring task over and over again.
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Vladimir Norkoff
Income Redistribution Service
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Posted - 2009.03.27 05:24:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Henglar Currently scanning for signatures is not much fun in Wormholes except you want to mine. Of course you can still find other sites but you have to scan doen every single signature indivitually to determine its type. This is not fun. This is the same easy and boring task over and over again.
This. Completely agree with you. Wormholes just changed from an interesting hunt, to a mind numbingly boring series of false scans and repetition.
My skills are decent - CovOps4, AstroRangefinding4, use a Helios with Sisters Launcher, 2 Grav Cap rigs, and Sisters Probes. And I still can't reliably narrow things down because of all the clutter. Maybe the system was designed around max skills, T2 rigs, and 10% implants. If so, then really they should just state that. As it stands now, exploring in WHs has just become too damn annoying.
Players want to find useful interesting sites in a reasonable timeframe. Sure looking for sites is fun in it's own way. However, the joy quickly fades when you find yourself retreading the same path over and over again. The fun is in actually running the site, not scanning out the same hi-sec ore site over and over again.
CCP needs to introduce a way to reduce the clutter. Either during scanning, or after you have located each site. And they need to do it now. Soon(tm) is really not good enough.
Taxman VII: Kingdom of Vlad
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Wet Ferret
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Posted - 2009.03.27 11:30:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Wet Ferret
Marker seems appear when you hit the warp button, provided that you actually would have landed on grid.
So apparently this feature was removed with the recent patch. Yay.
But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started. |
Cadde
Gallente Gene Works Initiative Associates
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Posted - 2009.03.27 11:41:00 -
[86]
Please correct me if i am wrong but aren't DSP's identical to core probes now apart from their warp speed and their base range? Here, let me show you what i mean by listing the values that differentiate them...
Core // DSP
Volume: 0.1 // 1.0 (m3) Warp X: 5x // 10x (speed multiplier of ?)
Base scan range: 0.25 // 2.0 (AU) Base sensor str: 40 // 5 Base max deviation: 0.125 // 1 (AU)
-----
Volume has no effect on scan times or results so we can just ignore that for now. Warp speed multiplier means the DSP are twice as fast getting into position than the core probes, that is good i guess. Base scan range, sensor strength and max deviation are affected by how many "steps" further your range is set on the probe so for example, the core probe has the following stats when you set it to 2 AU...
Str: 5 Dev: 1
The DSP has the same on 2 AU range...
Str: 5 Dev: 1
So, what remains talking in the deep space probes favor? Here is the list...
PROS:
* Warps twice as fast. * Can scan 256 AU (core can only do 32 AU)
CONS:
* Requires an expanded launcher. * Takes 10 times more space in the expanded launcher. (Can load 100 core probes in the expanded launcher)
Now, lets take a look at range and deviation. When the DSP is set at 256 AU range, it's max deviation is 128 AU, that means if you get the worst possible strength when you hit your signature it can be anywhere from 128 AU to 256 AU away from the probe. I don't know the math on how strength affects said deviation but i can tell you the effective strength on the DSP is 0.078125 ...! With that strength i can only imagine how much deviation you will see.
As a matter of fact, you will only get "useful" results when using them at MAX 16 AU ranges, 8 AU is "preferred" to be able to tell if the signature is by planet 1 or planet 6. So with that said, why would i waste time launching a DSP when the core probe has the same strength and deviation at ranges 2 to 32 au? (the ranges that both types of probes can handle) There are only a few systems in the eve universe where you will benefit from having a dsp with you. Most of them are between 30 and 50 AU in size and a scan one side and then the other with the core probe is faster than reloading to dsp just to cover the entire system.
--------
What i am getting at is, as it is right now on TQ, the deep space probe cannot be used to find but a very select few signatures with good skills. They warp faster but are just the same as core probes and only help with the very rare cases. With that said, core probes could just as easily be allowed to scan 256 AU and server that rare scenario thus dropping the need for deep space probes in the first place.
Not surprisingly it's the same with combat probes, they have the exact same strengths and deviation as core and dsp but scans at 0.5 to 64 AU, they also warp 50% faster than core probes but are otherwise COMPLETELY useless in comparison.
-----
The easiest solution to ALL problems we had with deep space probes being overpowered would be to leave them as they where but remove their ability to provide a warpable signature. That would require the user to bring in another set of probes to get a warpable result. It would also make sense to limit combat probes to scanning for ships, wrecks, probes and drones and have core probes limited to the rest.
As it is now, the only probe that i will use is the core probe. Not to mention, that is the only probe that receives a useful bonus on the sisters version.
My opinions belong to me, you can't have them!
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Elisabeth Dakar
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Posted - 2009.03.27 16:04:00 -
[87]
Can we please have a statement from a dev to this issue?
I would like to know if we are supossed to spend several hours to find that one radar or mafnetometric signaturein the system. Or are there maybe ways to make scanning faster that we dont know jet?
If we shall spend hours on scanning, thats ok. I just wont do it anymore because its frustrating and boring. If the second is the case, can you guve us a hint? |
Max Hardcase
Art of War
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Posted - 2009.03.27 21:33:00 -
[88]
We'd be better of if they released the old style exploration probes again.
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Henglar
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Posted - 2009.03.28 00:25:00 -
[89]
What bothers me most is that the devs said nothing about this issue. Not even a single comment or an explanation. And even now they ignore their customers and still give us no comment or explanation. I really dont understand it.
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Jade Blackclaw
Gallente Lightspeed Enterprises
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Posted - 2009.03.28 00:36:00 -
[90]
Edited by: Jade Blackclaw on 28/03/2009 00:37:18 Edited by: Jade Blackclaw on 28/03/2009 00:37:02 What about a better fix to the system.
Bump scan strength back up to 20 (or 10), But make the minimum scan distance 4AU-8AU to increase the deviation to where it will not allow you to warp on grid with the probes. This will allow DSSP to be useful enough to quickly find where to drop cores or combat, but not overpowered enough to directly use that info without more specialized probes.
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Archimedes XVII
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Posted - 2009.03.28 05:38:00 -
[91]
All I can say is this now makes the incredibly clumsy probing system incredibly boring.
When it takes a straight-5s prober all of his online time per day (2 or so hours) to make sure he hasn't missed that critical wormhole to known space there has to be something wrong.
And staring at those flashing white rotating lines for several hours is enough to drive anyone batty.
Deeps space probes at least used to help "filter" the type of contacts you were looking for. If some new probe could be used to tell us what contacts are in a general area, but not zero-range them, then I'd maybe reconsider using this clutzy system.
CRITICAL FAILINGS
- Click/drag command interface. That is the sum total of our command option. Click and drag... and see which random effect it produces. Will it rotate the map? Will it warp you to somewhere you don't want to go? Will it unwantedly resize a probe sphere? Will it throw up a useless popup window? Why not add a few separator commands... such as <alt>click-drag for rotating, <shift>click-drag for moving probe ranges etc. Too hard?
- Inability to "mark" sites already probed so that you don't probe them down a second or third time. This is largely due to the large "bounce" that signals have. Even bookmarks don't help much until you have zeroed in closer... then you have to start the filter process over again. Signal strength can be used to help this a little, but it depends on the number on contacts in a system.
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Kommander Kool
Caldari theFragment
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Posted - 2009.03.28 10:18:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Kommander Kool on 28/03/2009 10:21:13 /signed
I'll try and keep this short and sweet. I no longer use deep space probes, there is no point.
- They aren't 100% accurate at 256, so I can't use them like a multispec. - I start scanning at 32Au on most systems anyways (as they fit in 32au). - They don't reduce my scanning time at all, because I have to swap to core after 30 seconds.
Should've just increased the min range to 8au, or even 16. Waste of time training Astrometrics V at the moment as I can't even find a magnetometric in a .3 system with a cov ops.
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Narfas Deteis
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Posted - 2009.03.28 11:07:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Polcor Rodal Edited by: Polcor Rodal on 25/03/2009 11:01:49
Because one of the biggest problem in eve is the timebased skillsystem. Nobody trains Skills like Astrometric on V - unless you are playing longterm, where a 2 week skill is highly appreciated.
Problem with Astro V is not that you get better, the problem is that you reach an utterly new level of usefullness for which Astro V is the entry, not the end.
Watching eve getting simplified for nearly 3 years now, and every year we have one or two times when they (have to ?) nerf the vets (or at least the high SP chars).
Face it. Eve is broken the seed was planted from the beginning, and without a game redesign it cant get fixed.
Create an alt, burn all you money from your main while pirating, and say goodbye to eve. The game is "evolving" towards the average.
And sooner or later there will be something new on the market. Maybe even from CCP. Who knows
I mean they have drawn away their senior developer crew long ago, to develop World of Darkness - which will be released "soon". Guess Eve is just the cash cow to fund this. So make it attractive for everyone.
Thank you for this comment. I feel exactly the same, but I'm afraid World of Darkness will be also designed as "attractive for everyone" and "towards the averange" because... why not? Looks like CCP wants new players and don't care much about loyal customers. EVE seems to be more and more like many other games. It looses its originality. Maybe that's good marketing plan, maybe not. I'm sure there's more trial accouts then ever.
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Imperator Jora'h
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Posted - 2009.03.28 12:46:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 28/03/2009 12:46:08
Originally by: Henglar What bothers me most is that the devs said nothing about this issue. Not even a single comment or an explanation. And even now they ignore their customers and still give us no comment or explanation. I really dont understand it.
I find this rather odd too. Generally they give at least a cursory explanation, ask for our thoughts and then ignore us and do whatever anyway.
(partly in joke but really) -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
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Konrad Wachsmann
Deep Core Mining Inc.
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Posted - 2009.03.31 16:30:00 -
[95]
Indeed a very bad move, Deep Space just aren't useful since you have to be bothered switching them out for cores. Should have kept them as they were, when they weren't broken, now they are.
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Cynosurza
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Posted - 2009.04.01 17:29:00 -
[96]
Seriously...bad move...hell there isn't even a devblog or reason for the nerf other than listening to all the poor newbies who whined that 0.0 w-space was too hard for them and they were being found too easy.
My understanding is the base scan is divided by 2 for each level up from 0.25, I could be wrong, but at 2au a core has a scan strength of 5. What is the point of deep space probes if they have the same scan strength? 5 base with base range of 2 au? The whole reason deep space were effective before is that they could locate wormholes because they had a strength 10 at 4AU which in most cases was enough to figure out it was a hole and large enough radius to not have to scan the whole system with a quad of 1au probes. I thought the changes to the probing system was to make it easier for those who were not hardcore probers. This revert is a huge step backwards and makes probing in wormholes impossible because there are so many damn sigs within 1au that you have to scan every damn one out and warp to it rather than picking out the wormholes in 10 minutes it now takes over an hour and still they usually deviate away. Twice I had a hole to 75% with 2au with core only to lose it completely when I switched to 1 au. Scanning is broken, probing is pointless now.
Deep space were better when they were as strong as before, so what if that means people can probe out newbies in w-space faster, it is easy to avoid a prober.
My skills- Astrometrics 5 Pinpointing 5 Acquisition 4 Rangefinding 4
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