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75% nerf to Deep space probes

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Polcor Rodal Amarr	Posted - 2009.03.25 10:46:00 - [61] Edited by: Polcor Rodal on 25/03/2009 11:01:49 Originally by: Malena Panic CCP why do you hate people who have Astrometrics V trained? That's twice you've nerfed this skill. c'mon, leave it alone. Because one of the biggest problem in eve is the timebased skillsystem. Nobody trains Skills like Astrometric on V - unless you are playing longterm, where a 2 week skill is highly appreciated. Problem with Astro V is not that you get better, the problem is that you reach an utterly new level of usefullness for which Astro V is the entry, not the end. Watching eve getting simplified for nearly 3 years now, and every year we have one or two times when they (have to ?) nerf the vets (or at least the high SP chars). Face it. Eve is broken the seed was planted from the beginning, and without a game redesign it cant get fixed. Create an alt, burn all you money from your main while pirating, and say goodbye to eve. The game is "evolving" towards the average. And sooner or later there will be something new on the market. Maybe even from CCP. Who knows I mean they have drawn away their senior developer crew long ago, to develop World of Darkness - which will be released "soon". Guess Eve is just the cash cow to fund this. So make it attractive for everyone. Take care, bears.
Iceversaka	Posted - 2009.03.25 11:44:00 - [62] This will effectively neutralize the advantages of the new system and by proxy Wormholes. There is nobody who can effectively convince me that not even having the ability to "Mark" contacts before you get to 100 percent is just hard instead of just insane and a time waster. I agree that these probes are overpowered. yet that has nothing to do with their ability to filter through the crap YOU CCP filled your precious new wormholes with. I understand that working in WH space is supposed to be difficult but now its just not worth doing much more than a bit of sleeper looting. Is this what you are intending to do CCP? More punishment for those who dare not spend 10 hours a day in EVE? Being able to pinpoint quickly with these probes is wrong but now they are useless at the role you TRAINED so long for.. Please reverse this CCP
Nyota Sol	Posted - 2009.03.25 18:45:00 - [63] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Compromise: Keep strength same, increase deviation OR cut strength half and increase deviation. Make them unable to actually find a site, but great for narrowing down the general location. I love this idea. I don't know the reasons they have for changing it other than assuming they want to keep the PvP power reasonable, but this alternate approach could solve that. Keeping high strength and increasing deviation would make it so you need other probes for PvP purposes since you wouldnt be able to hit 100%, while keeping these vital for those wanting to sort through lots of exploration sites.
Nyota Sol	Posted - 2009.03.25 19:02:00 - [64] Edited by: Nyota Sol on 25/03/2009 19:03:45 Originally by: Iceversaka This will effectively neutralize the advantages of the new system and by proxy Wormholes. There is nobody who can effectively convince me that not even having the ability to "Mark" contacts before you get to 100 percent is just hard instead of just insane and a time waster. I agree that these probes are overpowered. yet that has nothing to do with their ability to filter through the crap YOU CCP filled your precious new wormholes with. I understand that working in WH space is supposed to be difficult but now its just not worth doing much more than a bit of sleeper looting. Is this what you are intending to do CCP? More punishment for those who dare not spend 10 hours a day in EVE? Being able to pinpoint quickly with these probes is wrong but now they are useless at the role you TRAINED so long for.. Please reverse this CCP Let me preface this with my saying i am a new player. I absolutely agree with these comments. DSP represent, to me, the ability to get beyond the limits of core probes and to SORT THROUGH ALL THE SIGNATURES in w-space. I understand that the DSP may cause serious imbalances for PvP, but using deviation to resolve that problem seems much better than to nerf the strength of the probes. If they nerf them then i no longer see a point to astro 5, DSP and even expandeds for exploration. There is nothing gained in terms of saving time sorting through sigs. *It might be more balanced if they had implemented an archive/history feature at the same time as this change.* To me, the exciting aspect of exploration is the risk and reward of doing something that requires some adventuring and delayed gratification. I respect that folks feel too many people can explore now, but if you really carefully study the markets i think you can see there is actually NOT some explosion in exploration-based items (not counting t3 salv). Ironically, there does not seem to be nearly as much new (k-space) exploration going on as we all seem to believe.
CrestoftheStars Caldari Recreation Of The World	Posted - 2009.03.25 20:56:00 - [65] maybe they did it becouse it was becomming too easy to use them ^^ but in my oppinion it is okey for now, sets up the price for everything to do with probing :P ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2009.03.25 23:18:00 - [66] Originally by: Blane Xero Originally by: Kahega Amielden Quote: again, you appear to be confusing easy with ridiculously monotonous, which is exactly what having to use cores in WH space is with the current filtering/archive systems it's not hard to look at the map marker and figure out that a hit you have is something you already scanned. Marker doesnt appear unless you risk warping to it. Marker seems appear when you hit the warp button, provided that you actually would have landed on grid. At that point you can cancel the warp. Sorry if that's already been said. I still won't be happy until I can bookmark those markers without actually needing to visit the grid. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
SDragoon	Posted - 2009.03.26 04:29:00 - [67] With this change DSP are going to become next to useless. I already hardly use combat probes at 32 AU much less 64. Why in the world would I want to use one at 1024 AU? Can't believe I wasted 12 days training astro 5 just in time for the nerf.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.03.26 06:04:00 - [68] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 26/03/2009 06:06:44 Originally by: SDragoon With this change DSP are going to become next to useless. I already hardly use combat probes at 32 AU much less 64. Why in the world would I want to use one at 1024 AU? Can't believe I wasted 12 days training astro 5 just in time for the nerf. Deep safes. Wormholes were an addition to the EXPLORATION profession. Surprise: If you don't like probing, you wont like the new wormholes.
Iceversaka	Posted - 2009.03.26 10:38:00 - [69] In before patch... PLEASE CCP do not do this! Give it one more patch worth of time to find a better way! Please!
Gaogan Gallente Solar Storm Sev3rance	Posted - 2009.03.26 19:36:00 - [70] Please put the str back and nerf the deviation instead! Also Sister's Deep probes are now EXACTLY as horrible as the standard.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2009.03.26 20:19:00 - [71] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 26/03/2009 06:06:44 Originally by: SDragoon With this change DSP are going to become next to useless. I already hardly use combat probes at 32 AU much less 64. Why in the world would I want to use one at 1024 AU? Can't believe I wasted 12 days training astro 5 just in time for the nerf. Deep safes. Wormholes were an addition to the EXPLORATION profession. Surprise: If you don't like probing, you wont like the new wormholes. People keep saying "deep safes" but how "deep" can a safespot really be? If you see a big gap between outlying and inner planets just drop a probe out there. A few at 8AU will cover most of a system and if for some reason they cannot a little readjustment and a second scan should manage. Even the very fastest ships in EVE cannot get anywhere near fast enough to drive out of range of an 8AU bubble (4AU radius). Even at 5,000 m/s you have to drive non-stop for close to four years. Not going to happen. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Hirana Yoshida Behavioral Affront	Posted - 2009.03.26 20:52:00 - [72] Deep safes are from before speed was limited. Twin-MWD ships could be used to reach ludicrous speeds and probes allowed warps to deviancy hits making for extreme ranges. There are spots >1000AU off plane in circulation, so they go pretty deep
Frobos	Posted - 2009.03.26 20:57:00 - [73] If CCP thought the search for ships was too easy, why didn't they just make ships harder to detect instead of messing with the probes -- at least as much as they did? So instead of nerfing the probes, nerf the ship's signature returned to a scan probe. I would hope that somewhere in the equations is a value for how much signal is returned to any probe. I also agree with the suggestions of modifying the other Astro skills, especially the triangulation related ones. This way someone who really wants to find ships, will first be better off having Astro-5 (2 days away for me) and they simply won't be able to jump in system, dump a single probe, wait 10 seconds and have a list of 100% sigs for all the ships in system that they can warp to. They will actually have to work a little harder for it.
Perry Amarr The X-Trading Company RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.26 21:01:00 - [74] It's dead, Jim.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2009.03.26 21:20:00 - [75] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 26/03/2009 21:21:47 Originally by: Hirana Yoshida Deep safes are from before speed was limited. Twin-MWD ships could be used to reach ludicrous speeds and probes allowed warps to deviancy hits making for extreme ranges. There are spots >1000AU off plane in circulation, so they go pretty deep I thought CCP deemed those an exploit? Once upon a time there was a nifty little trick that could get you thousands of AU from a star (was very easy to do...you'd literally be in warp for 10 minutes or more). CCP eventually plugged that hole and if memory serves said such deep space safes were a no-no. Been a long time though. ETA: Waaay back in the day you could stack as many MWD as you wanted on a ship. A corp mate of mine loaded up a Scorpion with all the MWD he could cram on. IIRC he was still accelerating when he capped out at over 3,000,000 m/s. Was a comedy fit....just wanted to see what he could do. Those were fun days though. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Rod Pliskin United Industries LTD. Shadow Empire.	Posted - 2009.03.26 22:26:00 - [76] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Deep safes. Honestly, how much of the Eve populace cares about Deep safes? Let's be realistic here, Deep Space Probes are pretty much useless.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.03.26 23:02:00 - [77] Yes, they pretty much are, but CCP wanted to make sure that any deep safes that -do- exist can be probed out. Quote: I thought CCP deemed those an exploit? No, they just stopped you from making them. Many still exist.
Rod Pliskin United Industries LTD. Shadow Empire.	Posted - 2009.03.26 23:11:00 - [78] Edited by: Rod Pliskin on 26/03/2009 23:12:42 Originally by: Kahega Amielden Yes, they pretty much are, but CCP wanted to make sure that any deep safes that -do- exist can be probed out. Quote: I thought CCP deemed those an exploit? No, they just stopped you from making them. Many still exist. Doesn't make sense to create 1 probe, that requires 14 days of training for a level 5 skill, just to find or TRY to find the 200 or so deep safes that exist in the game, or the ones that people even still use. Remove Deep Space probes, give Combat probes 200+AU range with lvl 4 Astrometrics requirement, boost strength of both Core and Combat probes and I think that would make more sense.
Rod Pliskin United Industries LTD. Shadow Empire.	Posted - 2009.03.26 23:16:00 - [79] And to add... make Astrometrics give a range bonus to Combat probes and strength bonus to Core probes. At least then it will give some of us who did train Astrometrics 5 something worth having.
Ahz	Posted - 2009.03.26 23:48:00 - [80] Originally by: Dave10 On the latest build (85232) deep space probes are now down to 5 base str, from their original 20. Wish I'd read this before I allowed myself to log off in a wormhole system. Used to take me 5 minutes to scan myself out again. Now...
Henglar	Posted - 2009.03.27 00:51:00 - [81] Rhis change doesnt make sense to me. Deep Space are now just useless! Why fit an expanded launcher now? Can we have at least have a statement from a dev why this change was made? This is so frustrating.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.03.27 01:29:00 - [82] Quote: Doesn't make sense to create 1 probe, that requires 14 days of training for a level 5 skill, just to find or TRY to find the 200 or so deep safes that exist in the game, or the ones that people even still use. Remove Deep Space probes, give Combat probes 200+AU range with lvl 4 Astrometrics requirement, boost strength of both Core and Combat probes and I think that would make more sense. I dunno why it requires Astro V either, but the old Observator probes did too. No, core and combat probes don't need a strength increase. Quote: Rhis change doesnt make sense to me. Deep Space are now just useless! Why fit an expanded launcher now? Can we have at least have a statement from a dev why this change was made? Combat probes? Also, it was changed because they were never intended to be anything other than the Apocrypha equivalent of observators. They screwed up and forgot that the higher base range of the deep space probes would give them WTFOMG strength. Quote: Wish I'd read this before I allowed myself to log off in a wormhole system. Used to take me 5 minutes to scan myself out again. This, THIS is exactly why the change was made.
Henglar	Posted - 2009.03.27 01:49:00 - [83] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Quote: This change doesnt make sense to me. Deep Space are now just useless! Why fit an expanded launcher now? Can we have at least have a statement from a dev why this change was made? Combat probes? Also, it was changed because they were never intended to be anything other than the Apocrypha equivalent of observators. They screwed up and forgot that the higher base range of the deep space probes would give them WTFOMG strength. Quote: Wish I'd read this before I allowed myself to log off in a wormhole system. Used to take me 5 minutes to scan myself out again. This, THIS is exactly why the change was made. Now than tell me, what are DSP good for now? I just dont use DSPs anymore because Cores are better now in every way except the range. But 32AU are sufficient for everything. Currently scanning for signatures is not much fun in Wormholes except you want to mine. Of course you can still find other sites but you have to scan doen every single signature indivitually to determine its type. This is not fun. This is the same easy and boring task over and over again.
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2009.03.27 05:24:00 - [84] Originally by: Henglar Currently scanning for signatures is not much fun in Wormholes except you want to mine. Of course you can still find other sites but you have to scan doen every single signature indivitually to determine its type. This is not fun. This is the same easy and boring task over and over again. This. Completely agree with you. Wormholes just changed from an interesting hunt, to a mind numbingly boring series of false scans and repetition. My skills are decent - CovOps4, AstroRangefinding4, use a Helios with Sisters Launcher, 2 Grav Cap rigs, and Sisters Probes. And I still can't reliably narrow things down because of all the clutter. Maybe the system was designed around max skills, T2 rigs, and 10% implants. If so, then really they should just state that. As it stands now, exploring in WHs has just become too damn annoying. Players want to find useful interesting sites in a reasonable timeframe. Sure looking for sites is fun in it's own way. However, the joy quickly fades when you find yourself retreading the same path over and over again. The fun is in actually running the site, not scanning out the same hi-sec ore site over and over again. CCP needs to introduce a way to reduce the clutter. Either during scanning, or after you have located each site. And they need to do it now. Soon(tm) is really not good enough. Taxman VII: Kingdom of Vlad
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2009.03.27 11:30:00 - [85] Originally by: Wet Ferret Marker seems appear when you hit the warp button, provided that you actually would have landed on grid. So apparently this feature was removed with the recent patch. Yay. But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Cadde Gallente Gene Works Initiative Associates	Posted - 2009.03.27 11:41:00 - [86] Please correct me if i am wrong but aren't DSP's identical to core probes now apart from their warp speed and their base range? Here, let me show you what i mean by listing the values that differentiate them... Core // DSP Volume: 0.1 // 1.0 (m3) Warp X: 5x // 10x (speed multiplier of ?) Base scan range: 0.25 // 2.0 (AU) Base sensor str: 40 // 5 Base max deviation: 0.125 // 1 (AU) ----- Volume has no effect on scan times or results so we can just ignore that for now. Warp speed multiplier means the DSP are twice as fast getting into position than the core probes, that is good i guess. Base scan range, sensor strength and max deviation are affected by how many "steps" further your range is set on the probe so for example, the core probe has the following stats when you set it to 2 AU... Str: 5 Dev: 1 The DSP has the same on 2 AU range... Str: 5 Dev: 1 So, what remains talking in the deep space probes favor? Here is the list... PROS: * Warps twice as fast. * Can scan 256 AU (core can only do 32 AU) CONS: * Requires an expanded launcher. * Takes 10 times more space in the expanded launcher. (Can load 100 core probes in the expanded launcher) Now, lets take a look at range and deviation. When the DSP is set at 256 AU range, it's max deviation is 128 AU, that means if you get the worst possible strength when you hit your signature it can be anywhere from 128 AU to 256 AU away from the probe. I don't know the math on how strength affects said deviation but i can tell you the effective strength on the DSP is 0.078125 ...! With that strength i can only imagine how much deviation you will see. As a matter of fact, you will only get "useful" results when using them at MAX 16 AU ranges, 8 AU is "preferred" to be able to tell if the signature is by planet 1 or planet 6. So with that said, why would i waste time launching a DSP when the core probe has the same strength and deviation at ranges 2 to 32 au? (the ranges that both types of probes can handle) There are only a few systems in the eve universe where you will benefit from having a dsp with you. Most of them are between 30 and 50 AU in size and a scan one side and then the other with the core probe is faster than reloading to dsp just to cover the entire system. -------- What i am getting at is, as it is right now on TQ, the deep space probe cannot be used to find but a very select few signatures with good skills. They warp faster but are just the same as core probes and only help with the very rare cases. With that said, core probes could just as easily be allowed to scan 256 AU and server that rare scenario thus dropping the need for deep space probes in the first place. Not surprisingly it's the same with combat probes, they have the exact same strengths and deviation as core and dsp but scans at 0.5 to 64 AU, they also warp 50% faster than core probes but are otherwise COMPLETELY useless in comparison. ----- The easiest solution to ALL problems we had with deep space probes being overpowered would be to leave them as they where but remove their ability to provide a warpable signature. That would require the user to bring in another set of probes to get a warpable result. It would also make sense to limit combat probes to scanning for ships, wrecks, probes and drones and have core probes limited to the rest. As it is now, the only probe that i will use is the core probe. Not to mention, that is the only probe that receives a useful bonus on the sisters version. My opinions belong to me, you can't have them!
Elisabeth Dakar	Posted - 2009.03.27 16:04:00 - [87] Can we please have a statement from a dev to this issue? I would like to know if we are supossed to spend several hours to find that one radar or mafnetometric signaturein the system. Or are there maybe ways to make scanning faster that we dont know jet? If we shall spend hours on scanning, thats ok. I just wont do it anymore because its frustrating and boring. If the second is the case, can you guve us a hint?
Max Hardcase Art of War	Posted - 2009.03.27 21:33:00 - [88] We'd be better of if they released the old style exploration probes again.
Henglar	Posted - 2009.03.28 00:25:00 - [89] What bothers me most is that the devs said nothing about this issue. Not even a single comment or an explanation. And even now they ignore their customers and still give us no comment or explanation. I really dont understand it.
Jade Blackclaw Gallente Lightspeed Enterprises	Posted - 2009.03.28 00:36:00 - [90] Edited by: Jade Blackclaw on 28/03/2009 00:37:18 Edited by: Jade Blackclaw on 28/03/2009 00:37:02 What about a better fix to the system. Bump scan strength back up to 20 (or 10), But make the minimum scan distance 4AU-8AU to increase the deviation to where it will not allow you to warp on grid with the probes. This will allow DSSP to be useful enough to quickly find where to drop cores or combat, but not overpowered enough to directly use that info without more specialized probes.

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