EVE Search - Are autocannons useless?

All Channels

Ships and Modules

Are autocannons useless?

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Therran Promitz	Posted - 2009.03.28 09:07:00 - [1] I was comparing large AC turrets with large blasters. Both T2, they both has the same ROF, but the Blaster had a higher multiplier, and so did pulse lasers. So, aside from more varied ammo, is there any use for ACs?
Merin Ryskin Peregrine Industries	Posted - 2009.03.28 09:09:00 - [2] You're supposed to also look at range and tracking, not just dps. However, you have found the correct answer, even if your reasons are flawed: large ACs and Minmatar battleships suck. However, at the frigate and cruiser level, they can be quite effective. -----------
King Rothgar Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.28 09:58:00 - [3] AC's are in the middle for effective range between blasters (shortest) and pulse lasers (longest) and do the least raw dps of the three. That in of itself is a problem. It should have a medium damage level to match range. That said all is not lost on them. The vast majority of pvp ships are armor tanked and shooting those with lasers is often painful. I've beaten Abaddons out on top damage dealer with a hurricane using Hail from 220mm AC's for that very reason. So, they are not totally sucky but in general either blasters or lasers are better.
Psiri	Posted - 2009.03.28 10:08:00 - [4] The ability to fight into fall-off allows you to reduce or even completely negate any inbound damage from the target ship. This is under assumption that you are faster, after webs and scramblers have been applied. Thankfully Minmatar ships (the only ones with projectile bonuses) are the fastest in their respective ship classes and usually sport enough mids to allow for a web. Medium AC's are powerful aswell, large AC's or rather large projectiles in general are considered to be too weak by many. Then again so are large missiles and blasters.
Deathhawk Hammersmith Hardmen Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2009.03.28 10:29:00 - [5] no
fkingfurious	Posted - 2009.03.28 11:06:00 - [6] Small and Medium AC's are very good weapon systems. Look at the Rifter, Thrasher (FW for the most part), Rupture, Hurricane and Vagabond. All very popular ships and they all use AC's to great effect. The problem comes when you get to Large Projectiles. AC's just fail compared to lasers. Even at their optimlas of like 6KM they wont out damage a MegaPulse loaded with Scorch that has an optimal of 45KM and Blasters with Null can out damage that at pretty much any distance sub-24KM. They do have (slightly) better tracking than Blasters (assuming it's not a Mega you're fighting) and they do have variable damage types,unfortunately this advantage is largely negated as the DPS loss due to Falloff is too severe when using an ammo type that isn't Barrage. And Artillery are outright suck-tastic. Worst DPS, worst effective range and worst tracking pretty much make them bottom of the pile on a sniper, although again it's worth noting that only the BS class is thus afflicted. Medium and Small Artillery can both be very effective in the right hands.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates The Star Fraction	Posted - 2009.03.28 11:38:00 - [7] They're also variable damage type and capless DPS. Battleship autos have problems, because... basically their advantages rely on mobility, and at battleships size that's just a bit of a joke really. Cruiser size are awesome though.
Azirapheal Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2009.03.28 11:52:00 - [8] i love autocannons, they have fantastic tracking especially on the ships they are intended to use, and while they lack the raw dps of the other two options the cap-free firing mechanism, ability to choose precisely which damage output to use (em/therm/kin/exp ammo) vary base ranges and of course the BIG falloff and high rof allow you to function effectively outside of web/scramb range and still pepper them i love projectiles :) and they often function brilliantly where lasers and blasters fail. to sum it up autocannons - fight slightly beyond optimals and in low falloff, slightly reduced dps, ability to target opponents holes in tank, cap free weapons system, nice tracking blasters - space shotguns. extremely close range very high damage low accuracy. struggle to track at the ranges they are intended to be used at and easy to stay beyond lasers - will bbq you at the 10-40km range (med laser 2's since t1 do loldamage) pulses have high rof and good damage at midranges. but getting in close to an amarr ship and orbiting with your cap free weapons tends to render them useless. limited mids on amarr ships tends to mean web OR scramb not both. lasers themselves come so horrendously prenerfed. amarr battleships to use an example sport powergrids MASSIVELY above anyone else. my abaddon having grid in excess of 30k with skills and fittings, and can still barely fit a rack of the guns its intended to use (ok so tach 2's are extreme but still) lasers also deal em/therm damage... the most highly tanked resists on average in the game despite the overall reduction in em resist in short, AC's are pretty damn awesome. and cant be directly compared. ac2's on a rupture/wolf/vagabond/stabber are approximately equal to blasters on the equivalent gall/caldari ships but have to be used in different ways to maximise their benefits. hope ive helped some Originally by: Grohalmatar The proposed changes in the game development forum are obviously a nerf to falcon pilots. However, what they really are is a nerf to falcon alts.
Zantei	Posted - 2009.03.28 12:07:00 - [9] Turret changes let me down all the time, there is no consistency! This is why I use drones, at least they're designed to shoot things accurately. ;p
RedSplat Heretic Army	Posted - 2009.03.28 12:19:00 - [10] The only role i see for large arty is in snipe fit fleets engaging at what is the low end of what most people will consider 'snipe range' for a BS, where fleet size isnt large enough that the Alpha from arty doesn't matter and isn't too small; in which case DPS is preferred over Alpha. Large AC's: Good with the Maelstrom, poor on the Tempest unless you are rolling with Heavy neuts, in a gang and are able to keep you target pinned out of optimal. Medium AC's: . Perfect weapons system imo- but you have to make them work for you Medium Arty: Very nice, very target dependant; I wouldn't use arty vs' anything bigger than a cruiser. I think a lot of the malaise about Minmatar weapons/ships comes from the fact they they are harder to use effectively than other races. Sure, there are generally better ships/weapons out there for pretty much any role a Minmatar ship performs, sure i think Minny need re-balancing and a partial abolition of the ******ed HP buff. Then again, if you can make it work for you, great. If you cant, there are easier routes for you to take. Please resize image to a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal I'm in denial. Post moar kitteh.
Frances Ducoir Gallente GK inc.	Posted - 2009.03.28 12:47:00 - [11] Edited by: Frances Ducoir on 28/03/2009 12:51:28 Originally by: King Rothgar The vast majority of pvp ships are armor tanked and shooting those with lasers is often painful. this is just not true... EM is the lowest resist on most t2 armor omni-tanked ships. this was even before the em armor resist nerf. lasers are the most effective weapons against most t2 ships. (given, that t2 is very common nowadays you could say amarr has the best damage types for their weapon system ^^) large blasters and acs suffer from their dependency on beeing very close to the target. in most engagements, amarr are top dps dealers because they dont need to travel to their targets. also the dps advantage of blasters compared to pulses doesnt justify their drawbacks (range/tracking) because they have only marginaly more raw dps than lasers (from which 50% is kinetic, the most useless damagetype) imo: lasers > acs > hybrid > missiles ^^ i can use all 3 of the turret weapon systems and fly all 3 turret races btw ^^ snip Signiture remoted because it contained profanity - hutch
Warrio Southern Cross Incorporated Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.03.28 13:13:00 - [12] With Barrage. No. Without Barrage. Not really. sXe
AstroPhobic Minmatar	Posted - 2009.03.28 13:42:00 - [13] No they're not useless. (Surprised to see that?) They're heavily flawed, both conceptually and design wise, but they're not useless. I won't make a megapost on it, but a few points. - Falloff sucks, it results in a giant decrease in damage - Barrage is awesome, because well, it's the "scorch" of minmatar - They require little fitting - Falloff doesn't scale between weapon tiers (d425/d650/800s) - which results in very little damage increase when moving up a tier - "Multiple damage types" is a myth. You generally use two types of ammo - RF EMP and Barrage. One is for fighting close, one is for not fighting close. You CAN switch to PP, but if anything it's just a guess at resistances that might benefit you but still cause you 10 seconds of reloading time that will most likely negate the change anyway. - They have good tracking, but the ships don't have enough speed (or ACs the range) to chase around smaller ships. - Minmatar high damage ammo (EMP) does 9% less DPS than other race's ammo. They're almost useless compared to pulse lasers, but about in the same realm as blasters. Artillery and minmatar slot layout however are just gross. $0.02
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2009.03.28 13:56:00 - [14] what astro said - putting the gist back into logistics
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2009.03.28 14:20:00 - [15] Originally by: AstroPhobic You CAN switch to PP, but if anything it's just a guess at resistances that might benefit you but still cause you 10 seconds of reloading time that will most likely negate the change anyway. Agreeing with the entire post but thought I'd select this - PP is worth carrying if only because it's really nasty against Amarr T2 ships - Barrage is obviously terrible against them, and RF EMP with its EM/EX/KIN split isn't particularly optimal. Phased plasma is a relatively high-damage ammo with a ton of thermal damage. To illustrate the difference, an unfit, max-skilled Zealot has... 10873 EHP against uniform damage 11967 EHP against EMP's 10/4/8 EM/Kin/EX split 8594 EHP against PP's 16/4 TH/Kin split If they fit a thermal hardener II then the PP becomes less optimal, but only slightly, and it's rare to see an actual active hardener fit anyway - given the choice between EANM II + Thermic Plating II and a Thermal Hardener II + ANP II, I usually see the former. Aside from Amarr T2 though I can't really think of a good reason to carry it; RF EMP and Barrage are both massively better against caldari and gallente :P __________________________________ Originally by: CCP Whisper Boo hoo. Cry some more.
Ig Neus	Posted - 2009.03.28 14:28:00 - [16] Not in mood for another turret debate to be honest. However, there seems to be a common belief that autocannons track better than blasters. Well, they do not. Or in fact, the difference is so small that you can safely ignore it. Just check the tracking of a Neutron II with Navy Antimatter and Null and compare it with a 800mm with Fleet EMP and Barrage. The huge optimals mean you can fight at longer ranges but with a huge damage loss. Still, Typhoon can do nice damage (if you have the skills to use 3 different weapon systems well) and Maelstrom is a Shield Tanked Hyperion that can actually fit its big guns. At smaller ship classes, Minmatar ships are nice. Rifter, Jaguar, Rupture/Stabber, Vagabond and Hurricane are all great ships.
Leandro Salazar Better Dead Then Smeg	Posted - 2009.03.28 14:46:00 - [17] Personally I take large ACs over large blasters any day. With ambit rigs, you get quite good range out of them (shooting in the first 66% or so of falloff still yields quite okay damage), they use no cap, the damage is not totally horrible as it is with arties, and they track quite well, especially when considering the range that they can hit at. Of course they are outclassed by large pulse lasers atm, but that is not because ACs are crap, but because large pulse lasers are decidedly good if not even overpowered. And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
Azirapheal Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2009.03.28 15:03:00 - [18] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Of course they are outclassed by large pulse lasers atm, but that is not because ACs are crap, but because large pulse lasers are decidedly good if not even overpowered. right large pulses are good, yes. large beams are good. you try fittinga full rack on a megathron, you will run out of grid at about.... 4 and cap out every 4 seconds reducing you to firing one of them. LARGE lasers are where lasers become more than loljuice medium and small however lasers plain suck if they arent t2. and theres a large number of amarr ships that can be seen sheepishly fitting autocannons themselves. please stop saying the only thing thats good about amarr is overpowered. Originally by: Grohalmatar The proposed changes in the game development forum are obviously a nerf to falcon pilots. However, what they really are is a nerf to falcon alts.
6Bagheera9 Slacker Industries The Boat Violencing Initiative	Posted - 2009.03.28 15:13:00 - [19] Small and Medium ACs work quite well. Large ACs have some issues, but benefit immensely from fall-off rigs.
Ig Neus	Posted - 2009.03.28 17:01:00 - [20] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Personally I take large ACs over large blasters any day. With ambit rigs, you get quite good range out of them (shooting in the first 66% or so of falloff still yields quite okay damage), they use no cap, the damage is not totally horrible as it is with arties, and they track quite well, especially when considering the range that they can hit at. Of course they are outclassed by large pulse lasers atm, but that is not because ACs are crap, but because large pulse lasers are decidedly good if not even overpowered. That must be the reasons that Tempests and Maelstroms are used more than Megathrons. Oh wait, they are not :)
Atius Tirawa Minmatar Destructive Influence KenZoku	Posted - 2009.03.28 17:07:00 - [21] not useless, just outclassed by other wepon systems. -----------
Traderboz	Posted - 2009.03.28 17:08:00 - [22] Originally by: Merin Ryskin You're supposed to also look at range and tracking, not just dps. However, you have found the correct answer, even if your reasons are flawed: large ACs and Minmatar battleships suck. However, at the frigate and cruiser level, they can be quite effective. Agreeing with Merin here. Large AC's aren't as craptastical as Large Arty, which makes for a very sad panda, but they are still pretty weak. The falloff, caplessness and tracking are nice, but honestly the damage just isn't there and falloff reduces what damage they have even more. When comparing them to blasters, there are pluses and minuses for each. But when comparing them to lasers, well, not much compares well to lasers these days, and large AC (and lol large artillery) really fails to stack up against them.
arbiter reborn	Posted - 2009.03.28 17:12:00 - [23] if you look at the wepons systems without looking at the ships you put them on then yes acs are underpowerd, however all minmitar bs can get over 1k dps and the tempest is one the best solo bs bescause of both its wepon system and its utility slots
Traderboz	Posted - 2009.03.28 17:18:00 - [24] Originally by: arbiter reborn if you look at the wepons systems without looking at the ships you put them on then yes acs are underpowerd, however all minmitar bs can get over 1k dps and the tempest is one the best solo bs bescause of both its wepon system and its utility slots Because fitting Hail is a great idea.
crockett EXE Minmatar Mutineers	Posted - 2009.03.28 17:22:00 - [25] Edited by: crockett EXE on 28/03/2009 17:23:14 Originally by: Azirapheal Originally by: Leandro Salazar Of course they are outclassed by large pulse lasers atm, but that is not because ACs are crap, but because large pulse lasers are decidedly good if not even overpowered. right large pulses are good, yes. large beams are good. you try fittinga full rack on a megathron, you will run out of grid at about.... 4 and cap out every 4 seconds reducing you to firing one of them. LARGE lasers are where lasers become more than loljuice medium and small however lasers plain suck if they arent t2. and theres a large number of amarr ships that can be seen sheepishly fitting auto cannons themselves. please stop saying the only thing thats good about amarr is overpowered. I'm curious as to what Amarr ships can often be found using AC's other than the Punisher? I've played with the Punisher using A/C's and found it did a lot less damage than say a Rifter being there is no extra 25% for Frig 5 in the damage dept. Of course on the other hand it has a fantastic tank which can be useful. (btw I'm not disputing you, I'm just interested in what other Amarr ships can get away with A'C's as I have a lot of A/C gun skills and wouldn't mind experimenting in Amarr ships a little more)
Leandro Salazar Better Dead Then Smeg	Posted - 2009.03.28 17:28:00 - [26] Originally by: Ig Neus Originally by: Leandro Salazar Personally I take large ACs over large blasters any day. With ambit rigs, you get quite good range out of them (shooting in the first 66% or so of falloff still yields quite okay damage), they use no cap, the damage is not totally horrible as it is with arties, and they track quite well, especially when considering the range that they can hit at. Of course they are outclassed by large pulse lasers atm, but that is not because ACs are crap, but because large pulse lasers are decidedly good if not even overpowered. That must be the reasons that Tempests and Maelstroms are used more than Megathrons. Oh wait, they are not :) Which has virtually nothing to do with ACs and everything to do with other factors such as Gallente being trained up by twice as many people as Minmatar in the first place, Megas being the superior snipers, the minnie ships only having 5 and 6 lowslots which kinda sucks for the armortanking required in most PvP situations, EFT-junkies who only fit for dps with total disregard to anything else, and of course people being lemmings or plain silly. And if you are reading this, you have arrived at the signature without noticing...
TehWorst	Posted - 2009.03.28 17:31:00 - [27] Yes, autocannons are useless, along with blasters and missiles. Lasers are the only weapon that can kill anyone. Crosstrain Ammar.
Ig Neus	Posted - 2009.03.28 17:39:00 - [28] Originally by: Leandro Salazar Originally by: Ig Neus Originally by: Leandro Salazar Personally I take large ACs over large blasters any day. With ambit rigs, you get quite good range out of them (shooting in the first 66% or so of falloff still yields quite okay damage), they use no cap, the damage is not totally horrible as it is with arties, and they track quite well, especially when considering the range that they can hit at. Of course they are outclassed by large pulse lasers atm, but that is not because ACs are crap, but because large pulse lasers are decidedly good if not even overpowered. That must be the reasons that Tempests and Maelstroms are used more than Megathrons. Oh wait, they are not :) Which has virtually nothing to do with ACs and everything to do with other factors such as Gallente being trained up by twice as many people as Minmatar in the first place, Megas being the superior snipers, the minnie ships only having 5 and 6 lowslots which kinda sucks for the armortanking required in most PvP situations, EFT-junkies who only fit for dps with total disregard to anything else, and of course people being lemmings or plain silly. Yes, it is everything except the fact that Gankathrons do much more damage than Minmatar Battleships at close range, they have the same tracking and they do more damage with Null than Minmatar with Barrage up to over 20kms, have better tank ect ect. I am sure about it. Autocannons are great on smaller ship classes where being fast and fighting in the falloff actually is useful. P.S. 0 Minmatar skills (ship/weapon) to BS IV and Large AC spec IV is less than 70 days for me. Crosstraining for people already flying Battleships (aka having good support skills as well) is not a big deal unless we takl about training a completely new weapon system or new tanking skills as well.
Terianna Eri Amarr Scrutari	Posted - 2009.03.28 19:10:00 - [29] Originally by: crockett EXE I'm curious as to what Amarr ships can often be found using AC's other than the Punisher? I've played with the Punisher using A/C's and found it did a lot less damage than say a Rifter being there is no extra 25% for Frig 5 in the damage dept. Of course on the other hand it has a fantastic tank which can be useful. (btw I'm not disputing you, I'm just interested in what other Amarr ships can get away with A'C's as I have a lot of A/C gun skills and wouldn't mind experimenting in Amarr ships a little more) Any Amarr ship without an offensive bonus to lasers (range, tracking, RoF, damage) or missiles is a candidate for fitting autocannons, with the exception of the Sacrilege (fit HAMs to that bad boy) and the Damnation (if you bother fitting weapons to it anyway). This includes; T1: Punisher, Maller, Prophecy T2: Vengeance, Malediction (because lolrockets) But nobody flies the maller because it's terrible and nobody flies the Prophecy because the Harbinger exists and trashes it six ways from sunday.... __________________________________ Originally by: CCP Whisper Boo hoo. Cry some more.
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.28 19:33:00 - [30] Edited by: Diomidis on 28/03/2009 19:33:55 You can try to out-track Lasers moving really close You can try to out-damage Blasters in falloff ranges, utilizing webs at their extreme ranges Dmg selection helps a lot, using Phased Plasma vs. T2 Amarr and Fusion/Barrage or even EMP* against most T1 armor omnitanks REALLY performs better than both the fixed KIN/THERM or EM/THERM other turret types get. * emp is good all-around, but fusion beats it vs. armor tanks most of the time Join the Biggest Greek Corp! www.Mythos-eve.com - Join Mythos Channel in game!

Pages: [1] 2 3 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.