Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 :: [one page] |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Jacabon Mere
Caldari red dwarf industries
|
Posted - 2009.03.28 11:29:00 -
[1]
If your using them to manufacture how do you value them?
Highest buy in the region? highest local buy? lowest sell in the region. lowest local sell.
I go the average between the lowest local sell and the highest local buy. local being within one or 2 jumps. -----------------------
Red Dwarf Industries is recruiting Aussies/players active around DT. Check out our thread here |
Breaker77
|
Posted - 2009.03.28 11:48:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Breaker77 on 28/03/2009 11:48:26
Originally by: Jacabon Mere I go the average between the lowest local sell and the highest local buy. local being within one or 2 jumps.
That how I do it as well.
|
Avalon Champion
Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency
|
Posted - 2009.03.28 11:54:00 -
[3]
I always try and use the rolling Average Sell price for the region I'm in, over the last 3-months, its as good an indicator as any, unless you get a sudden spike in prices, reviewed on a once a week/twice a month basis.
Everyone uses a differnt metric, no one way is right or wrong, it boils down to personal preference.
|
Estel Arador
Minmatar Estel Arador Corp Services
|
Posted - 2009.03.28 12:23:00 -
[4]
Aren't the minerals you mine free?
FREE! jumpclone service - NOW 192 locations! |
Argendta
|
Posted - 2009.03.28 12:55:00 -
[5]
Lowest sell in Jita.
|
Avalon Champion
Gallente Defence Evaluation Research Agency
|
Posted - 2009.03.28 12:59:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Estel Arador Aren't the minerals you mine free?
God Dam it, I knew i was doing something wrong.....
|
Abrazzar
|
Posted - 2009.03.28 14:10:00 -
[7]
I calculate my mineral cost as if I would buy them from the market at a logistically viable location where they are sold in the amounts I need. -------- Ideas for: Mining
|
brinelan
Caldari Victory Not Vengeance
|
Posted - 2009.03.28 14:34:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Abrazzar I calculate my mineral cost as if I would buy them from the market at a logistically viable location where they are sold in the amounts I need.
Same here.
What good is using a mineral price in a local system if it is not where YOU would be buying them at that moment when you needed them.
I have been using either the jita mineral index or the eve-central values for forge in evemeep lately but when I do build in empire it is usually the same as the poster above me.
Some days you're the bug, some days you're the windshield. |
Pwett
QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
|
Posted - 2009.03.28 14:58:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Avalon Champion I always try and use the rolling Average Sell price for the region I'm in, over the last 3-months, its as good an indicator as any, unless you get a sudden spike in prices, reviewed on a once a week/twice a month basis.
Everyone uses a differnt metric, no one way is right or wrong, it boils down to personal preference.
This but I use past seven days. _______________ <Q> QUANT Hegemony QUANT is rebuilding, EVE-Mail me for recruitment info. Item Database |
Sidrat Flush
Caldari Life is Experience
|
Posted - 2009.03.28 17:17:00 -
[10]
I'm working on a spreadsheet that will take the price of the component materials (regular mineral prices usually) and calculating the build cost based on the BEST local price it would take to set up your own purchase order.
Granted you could use the lowest local Sell price, but it's usually a lot cheaper to place buy orders IF:
- You can calculate the total minerals for all the items you want/have to build next week/month.
- You don't mind hauling the purchased items to the building location
- You know, the build price for any item at a glance, based on it's input prices you can then scan the market for items that are below this price, taking into account marker order costs of course
The spreadsheet is in its infancy however as I want to include ALL the tech 1 Blueprints and when it comes to manufacturing include the ME level as well.
May be done, tested and polished by the end of next week, or it may not. I do have a great name for it though so it's even more reason to release it.
-------------------------- Life is about memories the more the better. Eve Online Batch Calculator |
|
PassingThrough
|
Posted - 2009.03.28 17:17:00 -
[11]
All minerals from mining are free so it's all extra profit!
If you had sat at a gate all day pvping instead of mining you would have had to buy the minerals which would have been extra costs to your production.
Since you spent that time doing something to reduce your production costs instead of something useless and unproductive like pvping, your production costs are less.
|
Haradgrim
Tyrell Corp INTERDICTION
|
Posted - 2009.03.28 19:23:00 -
[12]
Lowest Jita buy order, it represents an accurate "opportunity cost" because if you decided not to manufacture with the mins, that would provide you with a snapshot in time of the alternative of selling all your minerals (at that exact moment)... which is really the whole point when valuing minerals you have mined yourself when you are considering using them for manufacturing...
--
Originally by: CCP Oveur Just donęt forget the reach-around.
|
Breaker77
|
Posted - 2009.03.28 19:28:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Breaker77 on 28/03/2009 19:28:50
Originally by: Haradgrim Lowest Jita buy order, it represents an accurate "opportunity cost"
No it does not!!! If someone is 30 jumps from Jita and can sell their minerals at the lowest regional buy order that whould be the value.
Jita is NOT the standard that everyone else in the entire game has to go by. Especially when you can make a lot more profit the further away from Jita you get.
|
3Bird
Gallente Star Fox Corp.
|
Posted - 2009.03.28 19:29:00 -
[14]
and if people didnt pvp you would be out of a job because supply wouldnt be there. no supply no sales, no sales no need to build new ships, no new ships no need to mine.
befor you talk out your ass again please o god please think about what you about to say, pvp is not useless, pvp drives the game as much as manufacturing does. without one side the other will not work.
and as for the Op, my self i go for lowest sell price, basicly what would i buy if i didnt spend the time mining. Fly Safe and Good Hunting.
|
Imertu Solientai
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.03.28 21:48:00 -
[15]
When I mine I do not pay anything for doing it. I can then refine that ore for 0 ISK too. I paid 0 ISK for the minerals. They are therefore free. This lets me manufacture stuff and sell it for a lot below market price, making me quick profits! |
Breaker77
|
Posted - 2009.03.28 22:16:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Imertu Solientai When I mine I do not pay anything for doing it.
I pay $15 a month to mine.
|
PassingThrough
|
Posted - 2009.03.28 22:39:00 -
[17]
You pay a little over 2 cents an hour so your character will continue training even when you aren't playing.
Originally by: Breaker77
Originally by: Imertu Solientai When I mine I do not pay anything for doing it.
I pay $15 a month to mine.
|
PassingThrough
|
Posted - 2009.03.28 22:43:00 -
[18]
Well, this post is about how to price minerals that you mine yourself. For a manufacturer, time spent pvping is a waste of time when you could be spending the same time reducing your manufacturing cost.
My comment was to the people that want you to add the minerals that you mined yourself into your production costs instead of using them to reduce your production costs.
Originally by: 3Bird and if people didnt pvp you would be out of a job because supply wouldnt be there. no supply no sales, no sales no need to build new ships, no new ships no need to mine.
befor you talk out your ass again please o god please think about what you about to say, pvp is not useless, pvp drives the game as much as manufacturing does. without one side the other will not work.
and as for the Op, my self i go for lowest sell price, basicly what would i buy if i didnt spend the time mining.
|
Breaker77
|
Posted - 2009.03.28 23:19:00 -
[19]
Originally by: PassingThrough In Eve we just have to go to a belt and mine some rocks that give us free minerals. There is no cost in doing that. I pay my monthly fee in order to keep my characters training. Whether I sat in a station spinning my ship or sitting in a belt mining makes no difference. The cost for my subscription will still be the same.
So the TIME you spend at your computer mining is worthless? Even as you say you pay for skill traning, I can spend time doing real life stuff instead of mining and still not lose anything. However the time I spend in Eve is worth something even if I am just mining.
If you wish to continue to sell items for below mineral costs because "the minerals you mine are free" I will gladly buy everything you price like that, then reprocess it, sell the minerals, and be the one actually making ISK.
Example.
You spend an hour mining 10 million in minerals. You produce items with minerals and sell them "at the lowest sell order price" so you can move them which comes to 9 million. I buy them, reprocess, sell minerals and make 1 million profit.
You spent 1 hour doing that, I spent 10 seconds.
You made 9 mil/hr. I make 360 mil/hr
Who is the person doing it wrong now??
|
Governor LePetomane
Rock Ridge Brokerage Solutions
|
Posted - 2009.03.28 23:21:00 -
[20]
Originally by: PassingThrough Edited by: PassingThrough on 28/03/2009 22:58:37
Well, this post is about how to price minerals that you mine yourself. For a manufacturer, time spent pvping is a waste of time when you could be spending the same time reducing your manufacturing cost.
My comment was to the people that want you to add the minerals that you mined yourself into your production costs instead of using them to reduce your production costs.
Companies produce some of the items that they need for their final products all the time so that they can produce them cheaper and use that to lower their sale price in order to undercut their competition, take out the middle man markups and increase their profits.
Eve is no different except we don't have the normal costs (building, employees, taxes, ...) that go along with producing the materials (minerals). In Eve we just have to go to a belt and mine some rocks that give us free minerals. There is no cost in doing that. I pay my monthly fee in order to keep my characters training. Whether I sat in a station spinning my ship or sitting in a belt mining makes no difference. The cost for my subscription will still be the same.
Assuming this isn't a troll -- and yeah, out on a limb here but wotthehell -- would you consider yourself to be doing well if you sold a bunch of manufactured product for less than you could have conveniently sold the raw minerals for?
|
|
Ashen Angel
Minmatar Ashen's Wings
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 00:18:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Governor LePetomane
Originally by: PassingThrough Edited by: PassingThrough on 28/03/2009 22:58:37
Well, this post is about how to price minerals that you mine yourself. For a manufacturer, time spent pvping is a waste of time when you could be spending the same time reducing your manufacturing cost.
My comment was to the people that want you to add the minerals that you mined yourself into your production costs instead of using them to reduce your production costs.
Companies produce some of the items that they need for their final products all the time so that they can produce them cheaper and use that to lower their sale price in order to undercut their competition, take out the middle man markups and increase their profits.
Eve is no different except we don't have the normal costs (building, employees, taxes, ...) that go along with producing the materials (minerals). In Eve we just have to go to a belt and mine some rocks that give us free minerals. There is no cost in doing that. I pay my monthly fee in order to keep my characters training. Whether I sat in a station spinning my ship or sitting in a belt mining makes no difference. The cost for my subscription will still be the same.
Assuming this isn't a troll -- and yeah, out on a limb here but wotthehell -- would you consider yourself to be doing well if you sold a bunch of manufactured product for less than you could have conveniently sold the raw minerals for?
To many... the answer is yes. Hence the reason I don't make or sell a lot of things anymore...
They forget those minerals they mine have a value. That value is what they can be sold for. It is not 0 at any point in the equation.
they think selling something at 500 isk over the manufacturing cost (factory time) is a profit when everyone else is selling it at 2000 isk over that price. Because they mined the minerals worth 1800 isk...
|
brinelan
Caldari Victory Not Vengeance
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 00:45:00 -
[22]
Originally by: PassingThrough All minerals from mining are free so it's all extra profit!
If you had sat at a gate all day pvping instead of mining you would have had to buy the minerals which would have been extra costs to your production.
Since you spent that time doing something to reduce your production costs instead of something useless and unproductive like pvping, your production costs are less.
you cant be serious.
You would rather take 10m worth of mined minerals, make something that sells for 5 m and be happy? Why not just sell the minerals for the 10m? ugh
Some days you're the bug, some days you're the windshield. |
Beth Korai
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 01:11:00 -
[23]
Originally by: brinelan You would rather take 10m worth of mined minerals, make something that sells for 5 m and be happy? Why not just sell the minerals for the 10m? ugh
Your example is a bit silly.
You: mine 10 million in minerals, and sell for 10 million, making 10 million profit Non-miner: buy 10 million in minerals, make something, sell for 15 million, making 5 million profit Me: mine 10 million in minerals, make something, sell it for 15 million, making 15 million in profit
You guys really need to stop equating value with cost; they're not the same thing. I would love for someone to explain how something that cost me zero isk suddenly cost me 10 million isk ifI use it to build something. Just because I CAN sell it for 10 million does NOT mean it has a 10 million isk cost on it suddenly. |
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 02:42:00 -
[24]
To me they're worth what it would cost me to buy that mineral in quantity in a convenient location. If anything I build sells for even close to that I will build something else or just sell the minerals for even more than that in a more out of the way location.
|
PassingThrough
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 03:00:00 -
[25]
Edited by: PassingThrough on 29/03/2009 03:05:32
Yes, the TIME you spend at your computer is worthless. If you are going to value the TIME that you are mining then you'll have to value the time that you aren't mining as lost isk.
Who said anything about selling anything below mineral costs? If I can refine something for more than it's worth then I'll just buy it all up, refine it and build something else. I'm not stupid. LOL
Originally by: Breaker77
So the TIME you spend at your computer mining is worthless? Even as you say you pay for skill traning, I can spend time doing real life stuff instead of mining and still not lose anything. However the time I spend in Eve is worth something even if I am just mining.
If you wish to continue to sell items for below mineral costs because "the minerals you mine are free" I will gladly buy everything you price like that, then reprocess it, sell the minerals, and be the one actually making ISK.
Example.
You spend an hour mining 10 million in minerals. You produce items with minerals and sell them "at the lowest sell order price" so you can move them which comes to 9 million. I buy them, reprocess, sell minerals and make 1 million profit.
You spent 1 hour doing that, I spent 10 seconds.
You made 9 mil/hr. I make 360 mil/hr
Who is the person doing it wrong now??
|
PassingThrough
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 03:04:00 -
[26]
I'm glad someone in here gets it.
Originally by: Beth Korai Edited by: Beth Korai on 29/03/2009 01:17:51
Originally by: brinelan You would rather take 10m worth of mined minerals, make something that sells for 5 m and be happy? Why not just sell the minerals for the 10m? ugh
Your example is a bit silly.
You: mine 10 million in minerals, and sell for 10 million, making 10 million profit Non-miner: buy 10 million in minerals, make something, sell for 15 million, making 5 million profit Me: mine 10 million in minerals, make something, sell it for 15 million, making 15 million in profit
You guys really need to stop equating value with cost; they're not the same thing. I would love for someone to explain how something that cost me zero isk suddenly cost me 10 million isk ifI use it to build something. Just because I CAN sell it for 10 million does NOT mean it has a 10 million isk cost on it suddenly.
Edit: and in answer to the original poster, I value the minerals much as others have: essentially an average between buy and sell wherever the manufactured/mined item will be sold.
|
Ashen Angel
Minmatar Ashen's Wings
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 03:49:00 -
[27]
Originally by: PassingThrough I'm glad someone in here gets it.
Originally by: Beth Korai Edited by: Beth Korai on 29/03/2009 01:17:51
Originally by: brinelan You would rather take 10m worth of mined minerals, make something that sells for 5 m and be happy? Why not just sell the minerals for the 10m? ugh
Your example is a bit silly.
You: mine 10 million in minerals, and sell for 10 million, making 10 million profit Non-miner: buy 10 million in minerals, make something, sell for 15 million, making 5 million profit Me: mine 10 million in minerals, make something, sell it for 15 million, making 15 million in profit
You guys really need to stop equating value with cost; they're not the same thing. I would love for someone to explain how something that cost me zero isk suddenly cost me 10 million isk ifI use it to build something. Just because I CAN sell it for 10 million does NOT mean it has a 10 million isk cost on it suddenly.
Edit: and in answer to the original poster, I value the minerals much as others have: essentially an average between buy and sell wherever the manufactured/mined item will be sold.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost-of-production_theory_of_value
quote: In economics, the cost-of-production theory of value is the theory that the price of an object or condition is determined by the sum of the cost of the resources that went into making it. The cost can compose any of the factors of production (including labour, capital, or land) and taxation.
It does not matter how you acquired the resources, they are still a cost of production factor based on their value. You can steal minerals worth 10 mil isk, mine for an hour to get the ore and refine it, or buy it on the market. The value is still 10 mil. To produce something using those minerals means there was a mineral cost in production of 10 mil.
|
PassingThrough
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 06:02:00 -
[28]
But if I value my minerals at zero isk then I have no capital value to add to the production costs.
You may value my minerals at 10 million isk, but if I don't value them at that on my books then it really doesn't matter what you think they are worth. On my books the capital value of the minerals that I mined is zero isk.
The value of those minerals will eventually get on my books in the form of net profit.
In the end either accounting practice works out to the same amount of isk in your wallet.
Using your way, if you use 10 million of your capital and sell something for 15 million you made 5 million in net profit and have 15 million in your wallet.
Using my way, if I use 0.0 in capital and sell something for 15 million I've made 15 million in net profit and also have 15 million in my wallet.
It all works out the same in the end.
Originally by: Ashen Angel
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost-of-production_theory_of_value
quote: In economics, the cost-of-production theory of value is the theory that the price of an object or condition is determined by the sum of the cost of the resources that went into making it. The cost can compose any of the factors of production (including labour, capital, or land) and taxation.
It does not matter how you acquired the resources, they are still a cost of production factor based on their value. You can steal minerals worth 10 mil isk, mine for an hour to get the ore and refine it, or buy it on the market. The value is still 10 mil. To produce something using those minerals means there was a mineral cost in production of 10 mil.
|
Beth Korai
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 07:13:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Ashen Angel quote: In economics, the cost-of-production theory of value is the theory that the price of an object or condition is determined by the sum of the cost of the resources that went into making it. The cost can compose any of the factors of production (including labour, capital, or land) and taxation.
It does not matter how you acquired the resources, they are still a cost of production factor based on their value. You can steal minerals worth 10 mil isk, mine for an hour to get the ore and refine it, or buy it on the market. The value is still 10 mil. To produce something using those minerals means there was a mineral cost in production of 10 mil.
Apples and oranges. You can't compare economic theory with basic accounting principles and manufacturing/accounting basics. I'll ask again, and maybe someone will answer: explain to me where an asset (mined minerals with no cost associated with acquisition) suddenly has a cost when used to manufacture something. Value and cost are not equivalent. |
Abrazzar
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 09:28:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Beth Korai Apples and oranges. You can't compare economic theory with basic accounting principles and manufacturing/accounting basics. I'll ask again, and maybe someone will answer: explain to me where an asset (mined minerals with no cost associated with acquisition) suddenly has a cost when used to manufacture something. Value and cost are not equivalent.
Acquiring those minerals costs time. Time = ISK. There you go, minerals cost ISK, even if you mine them. -------- Ideas for: Mining
|
|
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 10:01:00 -
[31]
The minimum something is worth is what you could get for it if you sold it right then and there, the maximum is what it would cost you to buy more right then and there.
It may become worth more later if you hold onto it, you may be able to buy it cheaper if you are patient or travel, or get more for it if you do the same, but those are all value add services, the profit you are making is not from the activity used to generate the item, but profit from trade.
You can ignore this all you like, but when you say you actually take it into account when selling things, then all you're doing is not writing it down and pretending it doesn't exist on paper, even though mentally you acknowledge it.
|
Agor Dirdonen
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 10:34:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Agor Dirdonen on 29/03/2009 10:34:34
Originally by: Beth Korai Edited by: Beth Korai on 29/03/2009 01:17:51
Originally by: brinelan You would rather take 10m worth of mined minerals, make something that sells for 5 m and be happy? Why not just sell the minerals for the 10m? ugh
Your example is a bit silly.
You: mine 10 million in minerals, and sell for 10 million, making 10 million profit Non-miner: buy 10 million in minerals, make something, sell for 15 million, making 5 million profit Me: mine 10 million in minerals, make something, sell it for 15 million, making 15 million in profit
You guys really need to stop equating value with cost; they're not the same thing. I would love for someone to explain how something that cost me zero isk suddenly cost me 10 million isk ifI use it to build something. Just because I CAN sell it for 10 million does NOT mean it has a 10 million isk cost on it suddenly.
Edit: and in answer to the original poster, I value the minerals much as others have: essentially an average between buy and sell wherever the manufactured/mined item will be sold.
It's not a silly example, it happens quite a lot. Lots of producers just produce something they like. When it's ready, they check the market to see that it sells for X isk and they just put it up for X-0.01 Isk. When it sells, they go "woohoo, made lots of cash", while they actually have NO CLUE whatsoever how much real profit they made.
They could have gained more money if they would have sold their minerals. Fact is, THEY DON'T KNOW cause they don't care to do the math. Why should they? The product is being sold for X amount of Isk and that must be a good price right? "That guy should have done his math so if I just undercut it, I must make a profit too".
It's like finding gold on the street worth 5k and then putting 1k cost into it to make it into a ring which you then sell for 4k.... woohoo!!!! I earned 4k... (and this indeed is a silly example, you don't find gold on the streets )
|
Ashen Angel
Minmatar Ashen's Wings
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 12:30:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Beth Korai
Originally by: Ashen Angel quote: In economics, the cost-of-production theory of value is the theory that the price of an object or condition is determined by the sum of the cost of the resources that went into making it. The cost can compose any of the factors of production (including labour, capital, or land) and taxation.
It does not matter how you acquired the resources, they are still a cost of production factor based on their value. You can steal minerals worth 10 mil isk, mine for an hour to get the ore and refine it, or buy it on the market. The value is still 10 mil. To produce something using those minerals means there was a mineral cost in production of 10 mil.
Apples and oranges. You can't compare economic theory with basic accounting principles and manufacturing/accounting basics. I'll ask again, and maybe someone will answer: explain to me where an asset (mined minerals with no cost associated with acquisition) suddenly has a cost when used to manufacture something. Value and cost are not equivalent.
Simple math:
Cost of production for module a: 1000 isk install fee 500 isk manufacturing fee 8000 isk market value in minerals
Total cost to produce: 9500 isk Current market value of module: 7000 isk
Cost of production for module a: 1000 isk install fee 500 isk manufacturing fee 8000 isk market value in minerals
Total cost to produce: 9500 isk Current market value of module: 10000 isk
Module B makes a profit, module A loses isk on the cost to produce. Yet some will say I mined the minerals so they cost 0 isk...
The cost can be paid with assets on stock which have a value, or the cost can be paid by buying minerals... The best way to put it is that the cost to produce is the total of all items and isk needed to make something vs selling them on the open market. It doesn't matter if you have minerals that count for 5000isk value of the mineral cost, the mineral cost is still 8000 isk (not 3000 isk because you had to buy 3000 isk off the market)
Just because you mine it does not mean those minerals have 0 isk value in regards to production costs to produce something. They still have a market value (how they are acquired does not change the fact they have a market value)
The value of an asset does not mean there is no cost to produce something.
To put it as simple as possible:
To determine the cost to produce something you figure in the market values of all items and the associated costs for making it.
The market value of your assets used counts towards this price to produce something if you use them.
PS: You need to remember economics is a science, and uses the scientific meaning of theory vs the common use. So that theory is practicably a law of economics
|
Arpad Elo
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 12:31:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Arpad Elo on 29/03/2009 12:31:32 sell value whereever you're going to use them, less cost of transportation
(note, cost of transportation is never zero)
edit: I was trying to be a smartypants there and failed - it is zero if you're at location.
|
Dariah Stardweller
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 13:14:00 -
[35]
I usually value them at the best price I could get for them without too much trouble. So no 10 jump hauls or sell orders that have to run for weeks.
|
Governor LePetomane
Rock Ridge Brokerage Solutions
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 14:39:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Beth Korai You guys really need to stop equating value with cost; they're not the same thing. I would love for someone to explain how something that cost me zero isk suddenly cost me 10 million isk ifI use it to build something. Just because I CAN sell it for 10 million does NOT mean it has a 10 million isk cost on it suddenly.
Yeah, it's true there's no "cost" in ISK to mine minerals (unless you use crystals or a pos in the process), so minerals you have sitting on your hangar floor have "value" and no "cost," at least in terms of ISK.
However, if you build from those minerals you've essentially exchanged them (and their value) for something else (a product) which, hopefully, has even greater "value" than the minerals.
When you exchange something of value for something else of value that is by definition a "cost" involved in the manufacturing process.
|
Kanikara
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 15:03:00 -
[37]
yeah people forget basic of accounting... and math.
If it has value, then to use it in producing something costs you that value.
So you use say 500 trit that was laying around your hangar in making a couple runs of ammo... that cost you 2000 isk or so in assets.
Simple and easy to understand... which is why most don't get it.
|
PassingThrough
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 15:37:00 -
[38]
Edited by: PassingThrough on 29/03/2009 15:42:54
It only has value if you have it on your books as such.
The math is simple. 0 x 500 = 0.
In your case you place a value on those assets so what you are saying is true for you.
In my case I don't place a value on those assets so what I'm saying is true for me.
Originally by: Kanikara yeah people forget basic of accounting... and math.
If it has value, then to use it in producing something costs you that value.
So you use say 500 trit that was laying around your hangar in making a couple runs of ammo... that cost you 2000 isk or so in assets.
Simple and easy to understand... which is why most don't get it.
|
Breaker77
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 15:40:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Breaker77 on 29/03/2009 15:40:35
Originally by: PassingThrough It only has value if you have it on your books as such.
The math is simple. 0 x 500 = 0.
Please use mineral values, not your IQ which you have confirmed by your "Minerals I mine are free"
|
Ion Dex
German Space Elite
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 15:42:00 -
[40]
no it always has value.
If you produce an item with 4000 trit and you make less by selling the produced item then you would have selling the 4000 trit on the market you would have just lost money.
But if you value your ore at zero you can not possibly make a bad deal because to you it is always 100% profit which is wrong.
|
|
PassingThrough
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 15:51:00 -
[41]
That's so wrong that it's not even funny. Why don't you call up Wal-Mart's home office and tell them how much money they are loosing every day. Tell them that they should move their items to the local mom and pop store because they could sell it for a lot more there.
It all depends on how much that 4000 trit cost you not how much it's worth to someone else.
Originally by: Ion Dex no it always has value.
If you produce an item with 4000 trit and you make less by selling the produced item then you would have selling the 4000 trit on the market you would have just lost money.
But if you value your ore at zero you can not possibly make a bad deal because to you it is always 100% profit which is wrong.
|
Breaker77
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 15:57:00 -
[42]
Originally by: PassingThrough That's so wrong that it's not even funny. Why don't you call up Wal-Mart's home office and tell them how much money they are loosing every day. Tell them that they should move their items to the local mom and pop store because they could sell it for a lot more there.
It's called Economies of scale. Yet again you have proven yourself wrong.
|
Ion Dex
German Space Elite
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 16:06:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Ion Dex on 29/03/2009 16:06:19
Originally by: PassingThrough That's so wrong that it's not even funny. Why don't you call up Wal-Mart's home office and tell them how much money they are loosing every day. Tell them that they should move their items to the local mom and pop store because they could sell it for a lot more there. It all depends on how much that 4000 trit cost you not how much it's worth to someone else.
You are correct in saying "it's is not even funny" You fail to see that Wal-Mart makes money by selling items dirt cheap and selling them in huge quantities. Now the items Wal-Mart sells do not just magically appear in there stores but are purchased from all over the world. Each item they purchase and place into their store has value. They purchase low and sell high, NOT get the item for free and sell them. Every item has value, there is no way around it or you get 100% profit which you claim you make :)
You also don't take the ore issue far enough. Not only do you have to assign value to your ore in order to know if you are making profit but you also have to assign a value to the time it takes to mine and adding that to the ore. Then compare the number you get to purchasing the ore and picking the item up with a transporter.
|
Governor LePetomane
Rock Ridge Brokerage Solutions
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 16:20:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Governor LePetomane on 29/03/2009 16:21:07
Originally by: PassingThrough That's so wrong that it's not even funny. Why don't you call up Wal-Mart's home office and tell them how much money they are loosing every day. Tell them that they should move their items to the local mom and pop store because they could sell it for a lot more there.
It all depends on how much that 4000 trit cost you not how much it's worth to someone else.
Hey that's great, actually. It just so happens I'm currently in the process of training up scrap metal reprocessing and I've been looking for somebody like you... somebody who gets it, unlike the rest of these chumps.
If you'd care to evemail me a list of your products and where you sell them I'm quite confident we can come to a mutually beneficial business arrangement.
|
Kanikara
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 16:20:00 -
[45]
Originally by: PassingThrough Edited by: PassingThrough on 29/03/2009 15:42:54
It only has value if you have it on your books as such.
The math is simple. 0 x 500 = 0.
In your case you place a value on those assets so what you are saying is true for you.
In my case I don't place a value on those assets so what I'm saying is true for me.
Originally by: Kanikara yeah people forget basic of accounting... and math.
If it has value, then to use it in producing something costs you that value.
So you use say 500 trit that was laying around your hangar in making a couple runs of ammo... that cost you 2000 isk or so in assets.
Simple and easy to understand... which is why most don't get it.
Well if all the ore you mine, and the minerals you get from it are worth 0 isk on your books... I'll pay you 1 isk for all you mine a day, plus the contract fee.
congratulations you will now make 1 isk profit!
|
PassingThrough
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 16:32:00 -
[46]
Based on your earlier statement, if Wal-Mart sells something for 3 dollars when they could sell it somewhere else for 4 dollars then they lost 1 dollar for every item that they sell.
That's your logic not mine. I understand selling cheap items in large quantities.
You can't make up your mind though.
Originally by: Ion Dex Edited by: Ion Dex on 29/03/2009 16:18:18 Edited by: Ion Dex on 29/03/2009 16:17:58 Edited by: Ion Dex on 29/03/2009 16:06:19
Originally by: PassingThrough That's so wrong that it's not even funny. Why don't you call up Wal-Mart's home office and tell them how much money they are loosing every day. Tell them that they should move their items to the local mom and pop store because they could sell it for a lot more there. It all depends on how much that 4000 trit cost you not how much it's worth to someone else.
You are correct in saying "it's is not even funny" You fail to see that Wal-Mart makes money by selling items dirt cheap and selling them in huge quantities. Now the items Wal-Mart sells do not just magically appear in there stores but are purchased from all over the world. Each item they purchase and place into their store has value. They purchase low and sell high, NOT get the item for free and sell them. Every item has value, there is no way around it or you get 100% profit which you claim you make
Edit: Yes you are making 100% profit of course because in EvE items do magically appear. But to properly calculate profit you have to assign value to every item.
You also don't take the ore issue far enough. Not only do you have to assign value to your ore in order to know if you are making profit but you also have to assign a value to the time it takes to mine and adding that to the ore. Then compare the number you get to purchasing the ore and picking the item up with a transporter.
|
PassingThrough
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 16:36:00 -
[47]
Your link just proves my point. Thanks!
I was being sarcastic in my response to him because he seems to not understand the concept. Maybe he can get something from that link.
Originally by: Breaker77
Originally by: PassingThrough That's so wrong that it's not even funny. Why don't you call up Wal-Mart's home office and tell them how much money they are loosing every day. Tell them that they should move their items to the local mom and pop store because they could sell it for a lot more there.
It's called Economies of scale. Yet again you have proven yourself wrong.
|
PassingThrough
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 16:40:00 -
[48]
Lean to Read English Online
Originally by: Governor LePetomane Edited by: Governor LePetomane on 29/03/2009 16:21:07
Originally by: PassingThrough That's so wrong that it's not even funny. Why don't you call up Wal-Mart's home office and tell them how much money they are loosing every day. Tell them that they should move their items to the local mom and pop store because they could sell it for a lot more there.
It all depends on how much that 4000 trit cost you not how much it's worth to someone else.
Hey that's great, actually. It just so happens I'm currently in the process of training up scrap metal reprocessing and I've been looking for somebody like you... somebody who gets it, unlike the rest of these chumps.
If you'd care to evemail me a list of your products and where you sell them I'm quite confident we can come to a mutually beneficial business arrangement.
|
Breaker77
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 16:41:00 -
[49]
Originally by: PassingThrough Your link just proves my point. Thanks!
I was being sarcastic in my response to him because he seems to not understand the concept. Maybe he can get something from that link.
I would recommend you take economics when you get to high school.
|
Ion Dex
German Space Elite
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 16:42:00 -
[50]
I am bored so I am responding to you again.
You claimed earlier that ore has no value via your formula of 0 x 500 = 0 Now let me take this and prove to you that you need to assign value to calculate profit and item vlaue.
I use the formula value * resource + markup to calculate the sales price. This is pretty much what most business do but in a very simple form.
We will build an item which requires 1000 trit and 200 Mexalon and a markup of 5% So according to you: 0 * 1000 + 0 * 200 + ( (0 * 1000 + 0 * 200) * 0.05 ) = 0
Now let's assign 4.10 to trit and 24 to mexalon 4.1 * 1000 + 24 * 200 + ( (4.1 * 1000 + 24 * 200) * 0.05 ) = 9345
As you can see it is impossible to calculate profit or even item value if you don't assign a value to your resources.
|
|
PassingThrough
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 16:43:00 -
[51]
Exactly! I'm glad someone else finally gets it.
You posted in the wrong forum though. WTB is
Originally by: Kanikara
Well if all the ore you mine, and the minerals you get from it are worth 0 isk on your books... I'll pay you 1 isk for all you mine a day, plus the contract fee.
congratulations you will now make 1 isk profit!
|
Kanikara
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 16:43:00 -
[52]
Originally by: PassingThrough Based on your earlier statement, if Wal-Mart sells something for 3 dollars when they could sell it somewhere else for 4 dollars then they lost 1 dollar for every item that they sell.
That's your logic not mine. I understand selling cheap items in large quantities.
You can't make up your mind though.
Wrong comparison
Walmart values the stock in their warehouses at > 0 and has a minimum price based on a certain percentage of profit company wide based on that calculation.
So yeah a competitor is selling it for $4 but pays $3.50 to buy it... where walmart buys at $1.50 due to quantity and sales for $3 making far more profit company wide than the little guy competing with them.. who would lose money matching their price.
You are operating like a competitor to bob donuts... who grows his own produce and raises dairy cows and sales at less than bob does.. never mind the large company is buying the ingredients in massive quantities from cheaper areas and even with the transport cost has a lesser cost of production on their products.
Never mind they could have sold the raw ingredients and actually turned a real profit versus a delusional one.. since the milk, flour, eggs and all would have sold for far more than the finished product.
|
Governor LePetomane
Rock Ridge Brokerage Solutions
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 16:46:00 -
[53]
Originally by: PassingThrough That's your logic not mine. I understand selling cheap items in large quantities.
Here's the flaw in that: in Eve raw minerals move in far larger quantities every day than any single manufactured item. Conversion of minerals to cash in Eve is so close to effortless that they might as well BE cash.
If you're adding multiple extra steps to your production chain and ultimately making less ISK as a result, then like it or not you're not doing a thing Sam Walton would approve of.
|
Kanikara
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 16:49:00 -
[54]
Originally by: PassingThrough Exactly! I'm glad someone else finally gets it.
You posted in the wrong forum though. WTB is
Originally by: Kanikara
Well if all the ore you mine, and the minerals you get from it are worth 0 isk on your books... I'll pay you 1 isk for all you mine a day, plus the contract fee.
congratulations you will now make 1 isk profit!
Well i figure if you value them that low, I'll buy them... and turn around and sell them for several million and make a lot of profit for my 10001 isk.
|
PassingThrough
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 17:01:00 -
[55]
I prefer:
Profit = [Sell Price ] - [Cost of Materials] - [Production Fees] - [Taxes].
I don't care about what the minerals are valued at by someone else. I only care about what I spent to get them.
What's so impossible about that? I don't mine all of my minerals so I do have some mineral production costs.
I'm not saying that your accounting practice is wrong. I'm just saying that it's not the accounting practice that I use in a video game where most of the reasons for those real life accounting practices don't apply.
You play the game the way you want to and I'll play it how I want to.
At the end of the day I'll be happy about making lots of profit and you'll be upset that someone has undercut you and you are now loosing isk.
Sounds like I win.
Originally by: Ion Dex I am bored so I am responding to you again.
You claimed earlier that ore has no value via your formula of 0 x 500 = 0 Now let me take this and prove to you that you need to assign value to calculate profit and item vlaue.
I use the formula value * resource + markup to calculate the sales price. This is pretty much what most business do but in a very simple form.
We will build an item which requires 1000 trit and 200 Mexalon and a markup of 5% So according to you: 0 * 1000 + 0 * 200 + ( (0 * 1000 + 0 * 200) * 0.05 ) = 0
Now let's assign 4.10 to trit and 24 to mexalon 4.1 * 1000 + 24 * 200 + ( (4.1 * 1000 + 24 * 200) * 0.05 ) = 9345
As you can see it is impossible to calculate profit or even item value if you don't assign a value to your resources.
|
PassingThrough
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 17:02:00 -
[56]
I may value them low but I love huge profit.
Originally by: Kanikara
Originally by: PassingThrough Exactly! I'm glad someone else finally gets it.
You posted in the wrong forum though. WTB is
Originally by: Kanikara
Well if all the ore you mine, and the minerals you get from it are worth 0 isk on your books... I'll pay you 1 isk for all you mine a day, plus the contract fee.
congratulations you will now make 1 isk profit!
Well i figure if you value them that low, I'll buy them... and turn around and sell them for several million and make a lot of profit for my 10001 isk.
|
Ion Dex
German Space Elite
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 17:16:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Ion Dex on 29/03/2009 17:16:37
Originally by: PassingThrough I prefer: I don't care about what the minerals are valued at by someone else. I only care about what I spent to get them.
What's so impossible about that? I don't mine all of my minerals so I do have some mineral production costs.
Here is the problem, you can never come up with a sales price on your own if you don't value your materials. You just look at the market, pull a number out of your ass and sell for that price.
At this point I am removing myself from this pointless discussion. You apparently lack the education to understand value so we have to agree to disagree.
|
Ashen Angel
Minmatar Ashen's Wings
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 17:37:00 -
[58]
Originally by: PassingThrough I may value them low but I love huge profit.
Originally by: Kanikara
Originally by: PassingThrough Exactly! I'm glad someone else finally gets it.
You posted in the wrong forum though. WTB is
Originally by: Kanikara
Well if all the ore you mine, and the minerals you get from it are worth 0 isk on your books... I'll pay you 1 isk for all you mine a day, plus the contract fee.
congratulations you will now make 1 isk profit!
Well i figure if you value them that low, I'll buy them... and turn around and sell them for several million and make a lot of profit for my 10001 isk.
Said profit is false, you would be better off selling your minerals and not even considering production...
Try it for a week or two and compare to how much you make producing stuff...
Might be enough of a shock to wake you up to reality.
|
Dreamwalker
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 18:31:00 -
[59]
So question I have for Fitz or someone who makes large pieces that go into making something else.
How do you value the item when it takes weeks to make the parts?
Do you value the parts?
Do you value the minerals in the parts and not the parts as a whole?
Do you value the finished product?
I currently have my way but my way has me sitting on inventory for some time as mineral prices adjust to where its profitable again. And no after a weeks time I'm not refining the parts down into minerals so I can sell the minerals.
Originally by: CCP Whisper Local chat in known 0.0, low sec and empire space will remain as it is today, in all it's insta-intel giving, afk cloaker panic inducing, jita trade spamming glory.
|
Ashen Angel
Minmatar Ashen's Wings
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 18:46:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Dreamwalker So question I have for Fitz or someone who makes large pieces that go into making something else.
How do you value the item when it takes weeks to make the parts?
Do you value the parts?
Do you value the minerals in the parts and not the parts as a whole?
Do you value the finished product?
I currently have my way but my way has me sitting on inventory for some time as mineral prices adjust to where its profitable again. And no after a weeks time I'm not refining the parts down into minerals so I can sell the minerals.
Same way you value a standard item
Mineral costs (which fluctuate), production cost (install cost + time cost), and usually a percentage of the BP cost.
sometimes after producing them, the return from reprocessing them will be worth more than selling the completed module
Of course so will transporting them to a different region, because someone is either liquidating or has poor judgement on pricing
|
|
Sparem
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 19:10:00 -
[61]
Originally by: PassingThrough I prefer:
Profit = [Sell Price ] - [Cost of Materials] - [Production Fees] - [Taxes].
I don't care about what the minerals are valued at by someone else. I only care about what I spent to get them.
What's so impossible about that? I don't mine all of my minerals so I do have some mineral production costs.
I'm not saying that your accounting practice is wrong. I'm just saying that it's not the accounting practice that I use in a video game where most of the reasons for those real life accounting practices don't apply.
You play the game the way you want to and I'll play it how I want to.
At the end of the day I'll be happy about making lots of profit and you'll be upset that someone has undercut you and you are now loosing isk.
Sounds like I win.
It's ok to do it differently, but it's not ok to do it a way different than yours because you win and they lose, right?
Yes, there is a value/cost for mining, unless your time is completely worthless and you have absolutely nothing that you could possibly be doing at the time.
|
Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 20:38:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Sparem
Yes, there is a value/cost for mining, unless your time is completely worthless and you have absolutely nothing that you could possibly be doing at the time.
Other things you could be doing in game such as exploration, mission running, trading, etc.
If you have a profitable item to sell why not just buy the minerals and run production lines 24/7. You can buy the minerals in greater volume than what you would ever mine yourself.
If people want to value their time and assets at zero that's fine. You can perceive the game whatever way you want. If someone ends up selling below mineral cost stop complaining -> buy -> reprocess -> sell minerals.
Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
|
Sep'Shoni
Gallente Carpe Diem inc.
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 20:55:00 -
[63]
I'm a newb so I am still figuring this stuff out, but when calculating costs I value my minerals at the highest sell order I could reasonably get someone to buy within a reasonable amount of time within a distance I am willing to haul.
I probably leave some potential profit on the table because I would get bored doing all of one thing and watching my wallet flash is only one component in the enjoyment of the game, but doing it this way the past month (since I started reading the forums and figured out the costs better), has left me with more in my wallet than some of the much, much more experienced characters in my corp.
I was increasing the amount in my wallet before, but nowhere near as fast as I am now. Sep'Shoni
Newb looking for a home. |
Agor Dirdonen
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 21:49:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Agor Dirdonen on 29/03/2009 21:55:40
Originally by: PassingThrough I prefer:
Profit = [Sell Price ] - [Cost of Materials] - [Production Fees] - [Taxes].
I don't care about what the minerals are valued at by someone else. I only care about what I spent to get them.
What's so impossible about that? I don't mine all of my minerals so I do have some mineral production costs.
I'm not saying that your accounting practice is wrong. I'm just saying that it's not the accounting practice that I use in a video game where most of the reasons for those real life accounting practices don't apply.
You play the game the way you want to and I'll play it how I want to.
At the end of the day I'll be happy about making lots of profit and you'll be upset that someone has undercut you and you are now loosing isk.
Sounds like I win.
Now, ok, I can follow you here for a bit. At least when you say that you want to have fun in a game and actually want to produce stuff. The money you make from that production is less important then the good feeling you 'made' something yourself. If that's your thing, then you are right and it doesn't matter how much your mined minerals cost. Heck, it doesn't even matter much if you sell for 50 percent below average market price either most likely.
But if you say that you like to make huge profits, then lets look at your equation again: Profit = [Sell Price ] - [Cost of Materials] - [Production Fees] - [Taxes].
Instead, we won't use the price of a module but the price for the minerals.
As [Production Fees] and [Taxes] become 0 (no production), it reduces too: Profit = [Mineral Sell Price ] - [Cost of Materials]
You set [Cost of Materials] to 0 as you mined the minerals yourself or have them simply lying around, fine, no problem. Equation becomes: Profit = [Mineral Sell Price ]
Now, if this profit is higher then the profit of actually making the product and selling it, why even bother making it?
|
Arickson
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 22:09:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Imertu Solientai When I mine I do not pay anything for doing it. I can then refine that ore for 0 ISK too. I paid 0 ISK for the minerals. They are therefore free. This lets me manufacture stuff and sell it for a lot below market price, making me quick profits!
Your logic isn't as correct as you think. Say a thorax only took 100 tritanium and you mined 100 tritanium. That 100 tritanium would be worth 400 isk. Now say you turned that 100 tritanium into a thorax that only sells for 300 isk. You lose money that you could of gained.
|
fdgfgfh
|
Posted - 2009.03.29 23:24:00 -
[66]
Edited by: fdgfgfh on 29/03/2009 23:24:55 The easiest way to explain it is you are not doing just one thing.
Your view is: Mining ū Production = 9.5 million profit, and you are correct. But if you want to maximise your profit you need to break it down and not view it as one big operation but rather lots of little ones. Here is how
I see it: Mining ū 8 milling worth of ore Refining ū refined ore into 8.5mill worth of materials _______Hauling ū moved minerals to trade hub now worth 10million Manufacturing ū made a 8 million value item Hauling ū Moved module to trade hub worth 9.5million.
This is a simplistic view but shows that instead of making the item I hauled the raw minerals to the trade hub I could have made more money then manufacturing the module. Mining = 8mill profit Refining = .5mill profit Hauling = 1.5mill profit Manufacturing = .5 mill loss
|
Sidrat Flush
Caldari Life is Experience
|
Posted - 2009.03.30 00:15:00 -
[67]
I hope we have discovered the language barrier that each side had.
The minerals you mine are FREE (except the cost of the mining lasers which do break).
HOWEVER as has been stated before why build ANY item that you plan to put on the market if the minerals could be sold to someone else for MORE Isk than the built item?
I have to get back to the spreadsheet now.
-------------------------- Life is about memories the more the better. Eve Online Batch Calculator |
Pwett
QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony
|
Posted - 2009.03.30 13:42:00 -
[68]
Oh my, I knew someone would take the bait on this thread.
Listen, if you think your minerals have no value, then fine. I will buy everything you produce, reprocess it, and sell the minerals back on the market. I'm not going to argue as your kind makes me hundreds of millions of isk every month for about 15 minutes worth of work. _______________ <Q> QUANT Hegemony QUANT is rebuilding, EVE-Mail me for recruitment info. Item Database |
Sidrat Flush
Caldari Life is Experience
|
Posted - 2009.03.30 14:14:00 -
[69]
I hope this thread can be stickied and locked so that the new industrialists can understand the differences between minimum and maximum profit.
Some would say, real and false profit, but not me.
Question - As minerals have a price (fluctuating of course), has no one realised that buildable items have a current minimum price as well, based on the mineral input?
-------------------------- Life is about memories the more the better. Eve Online Batch Calculator |
Breaker77
|
Posted - 2009.03.30 17:21:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Sidrat Flush Question - As minerals have a price (fluctuating of course), has no one realised that buildable items have a current minimum price as well, based on the mineral input?
I noticed it and made quite a nice profit when Megacyte went from ~2100 to ~3300 a unit
|
|
Ms Delerium
|
Posted - 2009.03.30 17:50:00 -
[71]
Why would you ever need to know the costs? Who cares?
You producing something. And get a profit (isk and fun). For example PVP is not "isk-profitable" but its too much fun-profitable so...
About how much you need isk to sell your items , minerals or ships... depFnds on regional market
|
Agor Dirdonen
|
Posted - 2009.03.30 22:16:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Agor Dirdonen on 30/03/2009 22:20:12 edit: ah nvm... I give up... it's like carrying water to the ocean.
|
Imertu Solientai
Gallente
|
Posted - 2009.03.30 22:25:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Arickson
Originally by: Imertu Solientai When I mine I do not pay anything for doing it. I can then refine that ore for 0 ISK too. I paid 0 ISK for the minerals. They are therefore free. This lets me manufacture stuff and sell it for a lot below market price, making me quick profits!
Your logic isn't as correct as you think. Say a thorax only took 100 tritanium and you mined 100 tritanium. That 100 tritanium would be worth 400 isk. Now say you turned that 100 tritanium into a thorax that only sells for 300 isk. You lose money that you could of gained.
But I didn't pay anything for the minerals so I actually made money. The minerals I mined had no value because I didn't pay anything for them.
|
Ashen Angel
Minmatar Ashen's Wings
|
Posted - 2009.03.30 23:00:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Imertu Solientai
Originally by: Arickson
Originally by: Imertu Solientai When I mine I do not pay anything for doing it. I can then refine that ore for 0 ISK too. I paid 0 ISK for the minerals. They are therefore free. This lets me manufacture stuff and sell it for a lot below market price, making me quick profits!
Your logic isn't as correct as you think. Say a thorax only took 100 tritanium and you mined 100 tritanium. That 100 tritanium would be worth 400 isk. Now say you turned that 100 tritanium into a thorax that only sells for 300 isk. You lose money that you could of gained.
But I didn't pay anything for the minerals so I actually made money. The minerals I mined had no value because I didn't pay anything for them.
So can I have them if your time is worthless, and the ore/minerals have no value?
Oh, wait you wouldn't just give them away... so they do have value. That value is what you could sell them for since they cost you time.
It's why when looking at ore yields and which ores to mine the common measure is: isk per hour based on an average price for the ore/minerals.
So time = cost
So how do you value your time?
|
Susung
Alt Anti-defamation League
|
Posted - 2009.03.30 23:41:00 -
[75]
AAARRRGGGG Time is not your only investment when you mine, if you sell a ship with 6 mil worth of mins in it for 5 mil you would have been better off just selling the mins. You lost the cost of the manufacturing job as well as a mil worth of minerals.
There are websites (EVEINFO.com <- register, use it and love it) and spreadsheets out there that make the math easy. when you put something on the market for less than its min value you make baby jesus cry!!!! Not to mention that it sells fast because somebody else who has done their homework sees your price buys your stuff and resells it. Please don't be stupid.
I generally use the average price in the region i am in.
|
Ms Delerium
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 00:16:00 -
[76]
this is the classic minerals-I-mine-are-free discussion lol
Im one of those who thinks that they are not free --> they cost your time. But once again, how to measure this? Some people can play for 2 hours a week, others play 15 hours a day lol. Obviously time is more valuable for the former...
And always, always, would be another more profitable thing to do. If you are mining, u can go 0.0 for more profit. Or you could be trading on Jita instead. Or if you are trading in jita, u could still be doing it better bla bla.........
About manufacturing costs. Its not that easy... what if I enjoy making ships? Ships that are going to be used by my gang mates? I will be proud of bringing them for the cause What if these modules im manufacturing are hard to get in this region? or im in deep lowsec and want to open some market? Im not gonna operate in Jita, who cares about jita in this case?
and so on.
Just manufacture and enjoy
|
Professor Leech
Transmetropolitan
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 01:40:00 -
[77]
What if you qualify or quantify the points that you are trying to make? What if you stop trolling?
Note that trying to discuss having fun in a game is an outrage to most of the posters in this thread. Keep enjoying what you're doing.
Originally by: Crawe DeRaven this thread is obviously going places
|
Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 01:43:00 -
[78]
I value minerals on hand at whatever it'd cost me to go buy them, i.e., the lowest sufficient-quantity sell order. I don't tend to do my internal accounting in anywhere near that much detail, but in principle, each step of the operation should be profitable or I'd outsource it. If I mine minerals, I value them at expected sell and calculate my profit with that number, if I buy on market I calculate my trade profit as the buy/sell discrepancy, and if I manufacture I do it expecting to turn a profit on manufacturing even if I buy everything at sell-order prices. If one step isn't worthwhile, I use the market to skip it - it's not worth trading for a hundred thousand total, say, so I buy from a sell and just manufacture straight, instead of trying to trade as well. Same with supplying components, or blueprints, or whatever. Figure out internal cost structures, at least in rough form, and plug them into your spreadsheet. ----- Bloodmoney Incorporated is recruiting! |
Sidrat Flush
Caldari Life is Experience
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 11:32:00 -
[79]
I don't believe it's possible to change the logic of people who believe minerals they mine are free because of course it's true.
They haven't spent any isk on obtaining the minerals.
They don't earn any isk until they turn the minerals into something and sell it on the market.
Is a battle cruiser built in 0.0 worth less because of the availability of minerals than the same one built in empire anywhere, where you possibly had to purchase stocks of zydrine and or megacyte?
This is the important bit
The spreadsheet that I'm currently working on will demonstrate that the minerals mined have a value. The value will be dependant on the mineral price that you will have to enter in yourself. Just because you obtained them for free they can still be sold to someone else for an isk amount. If the isk amount for the minerals is higher than the price of the item you intend to build with the same amount of minerals then you only build that item out of a desire to please and because you enjoy the building mechanic.
You could sell the minerals to someone else and use the Isk gained from the sale to purchase the same module for less isk than it would have cost you in minerals to make it.
End of important bit, so just read it again until your head hurts or something.
On second thoughs please continue putting up under-priced modules so that the eagle eye traders can maintain a profit without ever undocking.
-------------------------- Life is about memories the more the better. Eve Online Batch Calculator |
Frosty Nuggetz
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 11:44:00 -
[80]
I look for the highest combined price my "basket" of minerals will sell for and that's where I go -- which means, obviously, not always one of the major trade hubs.
Takes a bit more math to determine a sales point, but it works for me.
|
|
Mortimer Duke
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 13:16:00 -
[81]
Look Ma!
The accountants and the financial analysts are fighting each other again!
|
Dzil
Caldari TankSox Industries
|
Posted - 2009.03.31 15:08:00 -
[82]
I'd say base the value on the way you would plan to sell your manufactured product. If you have decent trade skills, and would set the product up as a sell order, then count your minerals the same way. If you need the instant turnaround to maintain your production line, count your minerals at highest buy. That way you aren't kidding yourself in your calculations for whether a particular manufacture job will be profitable.
|
Sidrat Flush
Caldari Life is Experience
|
Posted - 2009.04.01 01:16:00 -
[83]
Edited by: Sidrat Flush on 01/04/2009 01:16:31 See this excel sheet so it can be demonstrated that the ore you mine and then refine to turn into items DO have a value.
Just enter the mineral prices that you could sell the minerals for, then enter the number of units of Ore you have mined.
Based on perfect refining and zero tax waste you'll get a figure, it will also tell you how many units of minerals you'll get as well.
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1038755
-------------------------- Life is about memories the more the better. Eve Online Batch Calculator |
Sir Substance
Minmatar MagiTech Alliance Inc. MagiTech Corp
|
Posted - 2009.04.01 04:25:00 -
[84]
when valuing minerals, i follow this guide:
trit: 2.3 pyerite: 3.2 mex: 23 isogen: 66 nox: 112 zydrine: 2400 mega: 4200
thats close enough for jazz, and i havent changed it much in two years.
|
Jagga Spikes
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
|
Posted - 2009.04.01 11:02:00 -
[85]
trit at 2.3? you got some to sell? :)
on the other hand, minerals (and/or just about anything else) are worth whatever people are willing to pay for them. if selling low powers your motors, good for you. i'm certain it makes other people happy, too.
|
Kryss Stevenson
Caldari GMS Corporation
|
Posted - 2009.04.01 13:16:00 -
[86]
I think that it is hard to convince someone that the ore they mine is not free, just as it is hard to convince the person, which gets frustrated with that attitude, that this is just a game.
I can understand the mind set of the person who looks at the mined minerals as free. They are probably doing something else while mining their ores. Also you can look at it in this way; I donĘt have to pay for the minerals to build this since I mined for most of it. It makes a 100 mil isk battleship more affordable when you only have to pay for 15 mil worth of minerals to cover the ores you could not mine. That is an 85 mil isk ōsavingsö of sort.
I honestly would rather see people selling for below the mineral cost (if it makes them happy. It is how they want to play the game) then have them pump the prices up so high that most casual player canĘt afford them. Or they could decide that Tritanium is so valuable that they sell it for 20 isk per unit. No, I rather see them view it as ōfreeö then the other way. I have heard too many friends complain about other systems where certain ores are priced through the roof, not because they are ultra rare, but because the item that it is mainly used for everyone wants.
It is really no use complaining one way or the other, just find a different market for your items and donĘt sell in Jita. I manufacture items and make a good enough profit on them and that is using bought minerals to make them.
|
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
|
Posted - 2009.04.01 15:02:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Dreamwalker So question I have for Fitz or someone who makes large pieces that go into making something else.
How do you value the item when it takes weeks to make the parts?
Easy, same as with minerals, you value the minerals, you value the parts, you work out how much you are making building the parts. If this is negative, just buy the parts instead of minerals. If not, that's profit you made building parts. Then you value finished item, compare it to the value of the parts, if the parts sell for more than the finished item, sell the parts. If not, that's the profit to build the finished item.
For maximum profit you may just want to build the most profitable item per slot hour it takes to build. You also though have to take into account limited numbers of BPOs and the time taken to sell different items (sometimes intermediates are harder to sell, occasionally easier)
Quote: Do you value the parts?
Do you value the minerals in the parts and not the parts as a whole?
Do you value the finished product?
Value everything, then you know where you are adding value, and where you may be either reducing the value, or not adding enough for the process to be worth your time.
Quote: I currently have my way but my way has me sitting on inventory for some time as mineral prices adjust to where its profitable again. And no after a weeks time I'm not refining the parts down into minerals so I can sell the minerals.
Turnaround or patience is really the key, preferably turnaround, things like jump freighters I highly prefer the PE1 BPCs as you can go from buying the materials to selling the finished product in a reasonable amount of time, which means that you are unlikely to be selling at a loss, assuming prices were high enough to make the whole procedure worthwhile to begin with. Sometimes it is worth holding onto something if the cost to build it has risen since you built it, and that hasn't yet kicked through to the finished product.
Generally, if you're making an item that becomes worth less than you paid for the minerals, you're building the wrong thing, or should give up building in preference to trading the item instead.
Quote: Why don't you call up Wal-Mart's home office and tell them how much money they are loosing every day. Tell them that they should move their items to the local mom and pop store because they could sell it for a lot more there.
If they could, they would and should. In Eve you can. Bonus.
Quote: Profit = [Sell Price ] - [Cost of Materials] - [Production Fees] - [Taxes].
I don't care about what the minerals are valued at by someone else. I only care about what I spent to get them.
Right, Awesome.
You make a profit. Welcome to the basics. However if you could have made MORE profit, by doing less, have you not lost potential money by actually doing something?
It's like someone giving you a car. You could sell it for $20,000 but instead you take to it with a hammer and only get $5,000 for it. The car cost you nothing, therefor you deduce that you should hit every car with a hammer because it makes you $5,000 profit. And you get all that profit for just spending an afternoon causing reckless damage.
The brilliance of Eve is that someone can buy the car from you and with a click of a button, undo the damage and make back the $15,000 you just lost ;)
Quote: At the end of the day I'll be happy about making lots of profit and you'll be upset that someone has undercut you and you are now loosing isk.
Sounds like I win
It might sound like it to you, but they'll be buying your items, marking them up, and making the profit you missed out on, because your supply of the items is finite you can only make as many as you can mine minerals for. This works great for items that have poor demand and consequently no margins, but for larger in-demand items, others will be making many times what you make spending hours mining, with just a few clicks.
|
Lord Fitz
Project Amargosa
|
Posted - 2009.04.01 15:05:00 -
[88]
Edited by: Lord Fitz on 01/04/2009 15:05:51
Originally by: Sir Substance when valuing minerals, i follow this guide:
trit: 2.3 pyerite: 3.2 mex: 23 isogen: 66 nox: 112 zydrine: 2400 mega: 4200
thats close enough for jazz, and i havent changed it much in two years.
I will buy multiple billions of isk worth of trit/pyerite/mex at those prices if you have it. ;)
|
Irish Blend
Caldari 10045th Logistics Battalion
|
Posted - 2009.04.01 21:51:00 -
[89]
The minerals I refine are free - its the ore that costs me time and money. Err, except on things you don't have perfect refine on - then you should tip people but not to the point it eats into your net
If its a corp project, then thats community service and I just do it to get it done for the common good.
|
TII Noob
|
Posted - 2009.04.01 22:34:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Estel Arador Aren't the minerals you mine free?
Die in a fire :P
|
|
Professor Jinmei
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 03:51:00 -
[91]
I chose one from the below two, depending on the situation and other stuff:
Assuming sell orders are higher than buy orders, (and they generally are)
1) The raw materials lowest sell order in the system where I want to sell my product is the ceiling limit of what I could have gained by selling the minerals
2) The raw materials highest buy order placed in the system where I want to sell my product is the bottom limit of what I could have gained by immediate selling the minerals
|
Drizzt Zoloff
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 16:23:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Drizzt Zoloff on 02/04/2009 16:25:41 I usually just look for what seems to be the median buy-order(that's what I would sell it at) and value my minerals at that. Any other module/ship item etc, I put in a sell order, but since minerals are dealt with in such large quantities I usually don't try to put those up in a sell order because the time it would take.
|
Needs NOK
Caldari Make or Break
|
Posted - 2009.04.02 17:10:00 -
[93]
People are dumb, and people like Passing is dumber than most, cos they think they are smart.
The easiest example to illustrate why mined mats has a value is this:
You have 1 million Trit. You have 2 options when it comes to selling it.
A) selling the trit. B) Manufacture something
Let's say u do the easiest and sell the trit. With today's prices you would get approx 4.1m.
If u manufacture something using that 1m trit and nothing else you need to sell it for more than 4.1m to make it the best solution. THE END. If u can sell the minerals on market for more than u can sell the manufactured item for, Dont manufacture!
This ends the kid's corner, this next paragraph will have some grown up words. Who cares about the cost of your time, it's impossible to estimate and can even be 0 if you're a complete loser or love playing EVE so much that you dont want to do anything else. Look at the alternative cost of your mats. And if you dont want to do the math, you'll probably make more Isk by selling the mats without manufacturing.
rant over.
|
Ms Delerium
|
Posted - 2009.04.24 15:21:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Ms Delerium on 24/04/2009 15:22:57 But they are free!!!!!!!! I didnt pay anything for them!!!!11 just kidding
I decided to value them like this:
- Highest buy order in nearest trade hub (usualy its not worth to add sell orders for minerals)
- Plus manufacturing costs (installation and so)
- Then +5% for the work factor. I spent some of my time hauling the stuff and bringing this service. I deserve this 5% or more...
- +1% to cover the additional broker fee (when manufactured items, I will use sell order) usually will be lower, depending on standings, but just in case.
- Finally another cost, in my case I set it +3%, for market risks and time factor. Im not getting my money inmediately, but it will take a time and there will be some competitors undercutting.
And guess what, most of times the final conclusion is that a legion of morons always sell below costs, so its not worth.
At least its not in empire and when talking about most common items and ships that everyone and his dog likes to produce.
So we can say, manufacturing is nice if:
- You are producing capital ships or stuff that not every peep can do - You operating in lowsec/0.0 - You do it for fun even considering you are losing some iskies
|
Ms Delerium
|
Posted - 2009.04.24 15:45:00 -
[95]
To Passing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opportunity_cost
Now lets say tritanium is being sold at 2400isk/unit and you need 10millions trit to manufacture this ship. You will sell the ship at 40millions.
- Passing: HAHA i mined my own tritanium and im making 40millions profit. I rock!
- Intelligent player: Manufacturing this ship is stupid as morons are selling for 40millions, while just selling the tritanium will bring me 2,400 x 10,000,000 = 24billions.
Moral: you could have done 24billions and just did 0.04billions. Congrats you just have jetcanned 23.96billions
|
Tau Cabalander
Caldari
|
Posted - 2009.04.24 16:53:00 -
[96]
Originally by: PassingThrough I prefer:
Profit = [Sell Price ] - [Cost of Materials] - [Production Fees] - [Taxes].
I don't care about what the minerals are valued at by someone else. I only care about what I spent to get them.
You forgot to factor in Opportunity Cost; while mining you could be doing something else like ratting that generates ISK... unless you AFK mine.
|
Elite Qin
Caldari Wormhole-space Surveying and Exploitation Mass - Effect
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 04:24:00 -
[97]
Originally by: PassingThrough I'm glad someone in here gets it.
Originally by: Beth Korai Edited by: Beth Korai on 29/03/2009 01:17:51
Originally by: brinelan You would rather take 10m worth of mined minerals, make something that sells for 5 m and be happy? Why not just sell the minerals for the 10m? ugh
Your example is a bit silly.
You: mine 10 million in minerals, and sell for 10 million, making 10 million profit Non-miner: buy 10 million in minerals, make something, sell for 15 million, making 5 million profit Me: mine 10 million in minerals, make something, sell it for 15 million, making 15 million in profit
You guys really need to stop equating value with cost; they're not the same thing. I would love for someone to explain how something that cost me zero isk suddenly cost me 10 million isk ifI use it to build something. Just because I CAN sell it for 10 million does NOT mean it has a 10 million isk cost on it suddenly.
Edit: and in answer to the original poster, I value the minerals much as others have: essentially an average between buy and sell wherever the manufactured/mined item will be sold.
pfft, you obviously don't get it. The point is that you're mining 10 mil worth of minerals, then you're turning it into something worth 5 mil. You don't keep those mins, btw, they turn into that thing worth 5 mil. You're basically cutting yourself 5 mil short of what you SHOULD be getting. The value of your minerals sometimes is more than the value of whatever you're producing.
|
Gekkoh
Caldari Rule of Five The Junta
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 05:53:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Elite Qin
Your example is a bit silly.
You: mine 10 million in minerals, and sell for 10 million, making 10 million profit Non-miner: buy 10 million in minerals, make something, sell for 15 million, making 5 million profit Me: mine 10 million in minerals, make something, sell it for 15 million, making 15 million in profit
You guys really need to stop equating value with cost; they're not the same thing. I would love for someone to explain how something that cost me zero isk suddenly cost me 10 million isk ifI use it to build something. Just because I CAN sell it for 10 million does NOT mean it has a 10 million isk cost on it suddenly.
Edit: and in answer to the original poster, I value the minerals much as others have: essentially an average between buy and sell wherever the manufactured/mined item will be sold.
pfft, you obviously don't get it. The point is that you're mining 10 mil worth of minerals, then you're turning it into something worth 5 mil. You don't keep those mins, btw, they turn into that thing worth 5 mil. You're basically cutting yourself 5 mil short of what you SHOULD be getting. The value of your minerals sometimes is more than the value of whatever you're producing.
That's not the example he used. He sold the finished product for 15M, not 5M. So he's making a 5M profit.
However, this isn't rocket science. Whether or not someone wants to put a value on the minerals, they have a value. If you choose to value them at less than you can sell them for, then you are throwing out that potential profit.
In this specific example, the profit breaks down as follows:
10M - From mining 5M - From producing -- 15M Total Profit
If you bought the minerals, you'd have:
0M - From mining 5M - From producing -- 5M total profit
However, you also didn't spent the time it took to mine the 10M in minerals. In either case, the actual profit from production was 5M. The source of the minerals has no bearing on the production profit. <-- That's the key to all of this.
The real problem with this point of view is the following situation:
"Mined minerals are free": 0M - Value of minerals (what you can sell them for) 9M - Sale price of finished good -- 9M Total Profit
-vs-
Mined minerals can be sold: 10M - Value of minerals (what you can sell them for) 9M - Sale price of finished good -- -1M LOSS!!!
In that light, why on earth wouldn't you value your minerals at the current market price? If you're not doing that, then you're potentially throwing away ISK by producing things and selling them for less than you could have made just by selling the minerals!
|
jandelaar
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 06:32:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Estel Arador Aren't the minerals you mine free?
shsh.....arlready to many people think so, you want the industry go kaboom hahaha
|
thebarry
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 13:05:00 -
[100]
/me facepalms
|
|
Dr Silkworth
|
Posted - 2009.04.25 21:17:00 -
[101]
Edited by: Dr Silkworth on 25/04/2009 21:19:46
I actually value them about 20% higher than the market values them because to me they are worth what I can get from the finished product. if I can take 2 trit and make a space widget that I can sell for 10, my trit is worth 5.
Another area this argument repeatedly breaks down is that no one ever brings in the factor of whether or not someone is a single person corp producer or an actual corporation that is paying people to mine. A single person can valuate his ore as in the above example and they can undercut other corps all day while they acquire capital to get better ships and prints. It doesn't even hurt them because they have a finite ability to consume the product. I roughly consume the same amount I mine single handedly. I have trouble selling that much high profit product though in the area I mine and produce if I don't match sales with production
If others mine for me, I must pay them. Suddenly, my whole formula gets transformed into one where I must value my trit/mins at market rates because I pay a bit higher than market rates to corp mates. Now I have more than I can sell locally so I must additionaly pay for couriers also, unless I can get them free :).
My ability to consume is still limited to some geographical areas demand and the number of mfg slots so I must search for products that will roughly consume the same amount of materials I can sell in the form of products. I must price my products with some relation to the markets mineral prices. If slots are the limit the items must be larger or take less time to produce to try to balance mining capacity and mfg capacity. If I overproduce ore or products they or the mins sit and dilute the value I placed on them in the first paragraph because at best they would have to be valued at market reprocess, highest buy prices minus reprocessing losses. If it dilutes the value below the mineral sell prices i might as well lay off miners cause they aren't making me any money unless I speculate that the mins will rise in value soon.
Materials and goods in storage also have a cost associated with them. Corporate hangers cost money every day and if you are in a hi vol system, they are not cheap enough to ignore. In short, an efficient operation can value minerals at a higher price than an inefficient organization and even an inefficient corporation values them higher than the one person operation.
|
Somsri Gamegon
|
Posted - 2009.04.26 01:44:00 -
[102]
Edited by: Somsri Gamegon on 26/04/2009 01:45:53 To reply to the topic question - and in near-utter ignorance of any sophisticated economic theory or principle - I'm a miner.
In my mining ops, I use: an Osprey with two Miner II lasers, two standard missile turrets, a cargo expander, a mining upgrade and a shield recharger; A Badger with a 150 mm hybrid turret and a cargo expander; and two (soon to be four) Giant Secure Containers. I don't recall as I sit here the precise cost to me of those items, but on the close order of 8.5 mIsk - I know, pennies to all the high-fliers out there.
I usually mine about three hours a day, four to five days a week and fill four GSC loads of velspar or scordite. I mine in .7 space since I'm not well-enough armed or partnered to go much lower yet. I usually go to the same 'roid belt and set up my GSC's in a line, anchor them, then bring in the Osprey and fill them up. When I had two GSC's, my goal was to fill each twice; with four I'll fill each once. Not laziness, but competition from other miners, some of whom use barges. I'm not complaining; that's life in EVE.
Now to get to the value part. I'd like to realize my mid-range goal before I get too much older (in real life) and that is to have a mining set-up to mine ice and sell it to player corps for their stations. Maybe not realistic, but I'll figure that out as I get closer. So, I refine the ore at my NPC corp station in the system where I mine it at 90.5% with 4.xx% tax (not a secret; I just don't remember as I sit here what tax is.) When I'm done, I sell it using the "advanced" tab on the market button for the regional average price in my region. Why? Because I have found that by setting it at that price, it's all gone the next (real world) day when I come back. So far anyway. As of last night, that was roughly 4.15 ISK per unit of trit and 3.something per pyrites; sometimes, I have a lot of scordite, you know?
For me, pricing and valuation isn't about maximizing profit; it's about advancing toward my goals .. or at least, toward the financial where-with-all to reach the next one (that mining barge and associated gear; about 12 mISK) in a steady and enjoyable way. I take time to role play, shoot the occasional Guristas who fires on me, think about where I'm going in EVE and if I want to go there, think about routes through Empie space to lower-sec systems with 'roids and ice and whether I ought to turn 3 Sisters Mining, Proprietary into 3 Sisters Mining, Inc. and train up two alts for trade and maybe manufacturing; find a suitably low-sec system and build a POS and mine and refine and ... ah, the dream of a cozy little house and a white picket fence, eh!
But that's how I value my ore and minerals and why. Believe it or not, not one spreadsheet is used in my operation of Three Sisters Mining. What I mine and refine is a means to the end of ... to my goals in EVE, which change in large and small ways every time I learn something new about EVE. Rather frequently, I must confess! But, fellow pilots, miners and capsuleers (sound like a union organizer, eh?) that is how I value my minerals.
|
Donner Blue
|
Posted - 2009.05.04 20:56:00 -
[103]
Wow - you guys are so smart - you can explain economics and theories and hard math and stuff.
Why aren't you smart enough to see you are being trolled????? How many ISK have you lost being indignant and responding to this thread instead of mining free minerals?
|
Sidrat Flush
Caldari Life is Experience
|
Posted - 2009.05.05 00:07:00 -
[104]
Originally by: Donner Blue Wow - you guys are so smart - you can explain economics and theories and hard math and stuff.
Why aren't you smart enough to see you are being trolled????? How many ISK have you lost being indignant and responding to this thread instead of mining free minerals?
I guess you're right, OR people are putting up buy orders and doing level 4 missions instead of mining? Or they could be pretending to work on industrial spreadsheet updates of course
EXP-L EIO ingame for industry, science, and 3rd party app discussion & EXP-L Eve Industrial Organiser |
Syndori
|
Posted - 2009.05.05 01:56:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Somsri Gamegon Edited by: Somsri Gamegon on 26/04/2009 01:45:53 To reply to the topic question - and in near-utter ignorance of any sophisticated economic theory or principle - I'm a miner.
In my mining ops, I use: an Osprey with two Miner II lasers, two standard missile turrets, a cargo expander, a mining upgrade and a shield recharger; A Badger with a 150 mm hybrid turret and a cargo expander; and two (soon to be four) Giant Secure Containers. I don't recall as I sit here the precise cost to me of those items, but on the close order of 8.5 mIsk - I know, pennies to all the high-fliers out there.
I usually mine about three hours a day, four to five days a week and fill four GSC loads of velspar or scordite. I mine in .7 space since I'm not well-enough armed or partnered to go much lower yet. I usually go to the same 'roid belt and set up my GSC's in a line, anchor them, then bring in the Osprey and fill them up. When I had two GSC's, my goal was to fill each twice; with four I'll fill each once. Not laziness, but competition from other miners, some of whom use barges. I'm not complaining; that's life in EVE.
Now to get to the value part. I'd like to realize my mid-range goal before I get too much older (in real life) and that is to have a mining set-up to mine ice and sell it to player corps for their stations. Maybe not realistic, but I'll figure that out as I get closer. So, I refine the ore at my NPC corp station in the system where I mine it at 90.5% with 4.xx% tax (not a secret; I just don't remember as I sit here what tax is.) When I'm done, I sell it using the "advanced" tab on the market button for the regional average price in my region. Why? Because I have found that by setting it at that price, it's all gone the next (real world) day when I come back. So far anyway. As of last night, that was roughly 4.15 ISK per unit of trit and 3.something per pyrites; sometimes, I have a lot of scordite, you know?
For me, pricing and valuation isn't about maximizing profit; it's about advancing toward my goals .. or at least, toward the financial where-with-all to reach the next one (that mining barge and associated gear; about 12 mISK) in a steady and enjoyable way. I take time to role play, shoot the occasional Guristas who fires on me, think about where I'm going in EVE and if I want to go there, think about routes through Empie space to lower-sec systems with 'roids and ice and whether I ought to turn 3 Sisters Mining, Proprietary into 3 Sisters Mining, Inc. and train up two alts for trade and maybe manufacturing; find a suitably low-sec system and build a POS and mine and refine and ... ah, the dream of a cozy little house and a white picket fence, eh!
(snip...)
My setup is basically the same as yours, except I jetcan mine with a Retriever. The price that I sell at changes depending on how much ore I have. If I only have 200k units of trit, I'll sell to the highest buy order. However, if I have a few million units, I'll usually sell it at 2% below regional average. Granted, I'm too impatient most of the time and sell my ore as soon as I can get back to the station with a load, so my goal of a hulk and a nice w-space or 0.0 POS is looking pretty impossible right now .
However, if I end up taking a Frigate out to 0.0 to see what I can get away with, I end up replacing the ship and mining lasers on it by mining and building the ship myself. It's horribly inefficient, but I figure ~10 minutes worth of mining and a difference of 500k to replace a ship isn't too bad of a tradeoff.
|
Sir Substance
Minmatar Deep Black Industries House of Mercury
|
Posted - 2009.05.05 04:09:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Lord Fitz Edited by: Lord Fitz on 01/04/2009 15:05:51
Originally by: Sir Substance when valuing minerals, i follow this guide:
trit: 2.3 pyerite: 3.2 mex: 23 isogen: 66 nox: 112 zydrine: 2400 mega: 4200
thats close enough for jazz, and i havent changed it much in two years.
I will buy multiple billions of isk worth of trit/pyerite/mex at those prices if you have it. ;)
im sure you would. the trit, pyerite and mex prices are largely based on instant buy order prices. im not patient enough to put up proper sell orders and get my proper isk's worth. use a locator agent to find out where i am, then place a station only order, and you might well eventually get multiple billions at that price.
|
Marcus Xavier
Minmatar Xavier Institute for Higher Learning
|
Posted - 2009.05.05 04:11:00 -
[107]
Edited by: Marcus Xavier on 05/05/2009 04:12:45 I use the market value of the minerals from the major trade hub nearest to the system where I intend to sell the manufactured item (minus the transaction cost). In most cases, I'm comfortable calculating the weighted average of the top 4 mineral buy orders, since this value generally represents the amount of minerals that I would sell immediately if manufacturing was not profitable. Using the sell order complicates the matter since it adds a time element into your costs.
I chose the major trade hub to reduce price variability both in the daily buy orders and over time. Ideally, I'd probably want to use a moving average, but I'm OK using price snapshots of a weighted average to simplify calculating material costs. ---------------- Mutatis Mutandis |
Zezzix
|
Posted - 2009.05.05 05:51:00 -
[108]
gods i hate it when people bring opportunity cost into it. none of you seem to know what it really is. for the person who posted teh wiki link, read the second sentence: "Opportunity cost analysis is an important part of a company's decision-making processes but is not treated as an actual cost in any financial statement." |
PassingThrough
|
Posted - 2009.05.05 12:05:00 -
[109]
Wow, I can't believe that this thread is still going.
Well, for one thing I would never sell the raw minerals on the market. That's the stupidest thing that you can do. If I could sell the minerals on the market for more isk than the item that I'm producing then I stop producing that item and start producing something that brings in more profit.
Whether you value your mined minerals in Eve is still just a personal choice. There really isn't a right or wrong way of doing it no matter what the first year college/university students think. This is a game and not real-life. The main force in real-life that drives all the theories that people are quoting is how to reduce the amount of taxes that you have to pay when you sell something. We don't have a complicated tax law in Eve to worry about so stop pretending that we do.
The really dumb people are the ones that can't grasp that Eve is a game.
Originally by: Needs NOK People are dumb, and people like Passing is dumber than most, cos they think they are smart.
The easiest example to illustrate why mined mats has a value is this:
You have 1 million Trit. You have 2 options when it comes to selling it.
A) selling the trit. B) Manufacture something
Let's say u do the easiest and sell the trit. With today's prices you would get approx 4.1m.
If u manufacture something using that 1m trit and nothing else you need to sell it for more than 4.1m to make it the best solution. THE END. If u can sell the minerals on market for more than u can sell the manufactured item for, Dont manufacture!
This ends the kid's corner, this next paragraph will have some grown up words. Who cares about the cost of your time, it's impossible to estimate and can even be 0 if you're a complete loser or love playing EVE so much that you dont want to do anything else. Look at the alternative cost of your mats. And if you dont want to do the math, you'll probably make more Isk by selling the mats without manufacturing.
rant over.
|
Umbriele
Gallente Natural Inventions
|
Posted - 2009.05.05 13:18:00 -
[110]
Originally by: PassingThrough Edited by: PassingThrough on 29/03/2009 06:06:37
But if I value my minerals at zero isk then I have no capital value to add to the production costs.
You may value my minerals at 10 million isk, but if I don't value them at that on my books then it really doesn't matter what you think they are worth. On my books the capital value of the minerals that I mined is zero isk.
The value of those minerals will eventually get on my books in the form of net profit.
In the end either accounting practice works out to the same amount of isk in your wallet.
Using your way, if you use 10 million of your capital and sell something for 15 million you made 5 million in net profit and have 15 million in your wallet.
Using my way, if I use 0.0 in capital and sell something for 15 million I've made 15 million in net profit and also have 15 million in my wallet.
It all works out the same in the end since Eve doesn't tax you based on the net profit. If Eve would let me do a tax return and allow me to write off the production costs and give me a nice tax refund then I'd definately switch to your method of accounting to reduce my tax liability. But until then I like my accounting method better.
But in eve, the RL time has a cost. You cannot mine and apply your theory for more than 24 h / day, i.e. the income you can make has a limit based on your skills/ships/accounts/belt dimension. On the other hand, whoever consider the mined mineral a cost, and thus buy them from them market instead of mining them, dont have the time restriction, but only the restrictions of the market, location, etc..wich are not comparable with the time limit cap. If you are in Jita for example, the limit of the isk you can make from trading tends to be equal to your capital limit.
|
|
Yarinor
|
Posted - 2009.05.05 20:50:00 -
[111]
Originally by: PassingThrough Wow, I can't believe that this thread is still going.
Well, for one thing I would never sell the raw minerals on the market. That's the stupidest thing that you can do. If I could sell the minerals on the market for more isk than the item that I'm producing then I stop producing that item and start producing something that brings in more profit.
Whether you value your mined minerals in Eve is still just a personal choice. There really isn't a right or wrong way of doing it no matter what the first year college/university students think. This is a game and not real-life. The main force in real-life that drives all the theories that people are quoting is how to reduce the amount of taxes that you have to pay when you sell something. We don't have a complicated tax law in Eve to worry about so stop pretending that we do.
The really dumb people are the ones that can't grasp that Eve is a game.
Well sorry to say, but i was getting really ****ed at you because it really sounded like you said that it doesn't matter if you lose money from producing an item over selling the minerals because they were "free".
Also please note that, a few years ago, a college course on applied management used WoW guilds as a hands on example through the entire course, i heard an interview with the proffessor and she saying the college was thinking about making an economy course using eve as a hands on example.
|
Srvin Taisorgky
|
Posted - 2009.05.05 21:00:00 -
[112]
I value them @ the purchase price (I usually set certain buy orders and wait for my price) and I use LIFO. Keeps it simple for me; if I hit an historic mineral low pointand purchae a lot I often keep that price, or re-mark to market rembering that my margin is actually greater than indicated.
|
Maerc Atreides
Caldari
|
Posted - 2009.05.05 23:06:00 -
[113]
lets take item A :needs 900 Trit to build
Cost to build: Install cost:1000 manufactureing fee:500 broker fee:540
Market value: 9000 Now player A mines his own minerals, cost in ISK: 0 ( unless he gets ganked) Player B buyes his minerals, Cost in ISK: 3600
Who make more profit?
|
Marcus Xavier
Minmatar Xavier Institute for Higher Learning
|
Posted - 2009.05.06 01:06:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Maerc Atreides lets take item A :needs 900 Trit to build
Cost to build: Install cost:1000 manufacturing fee:500 broker fee:540
Market value: 9000 Now player A mines his own minerals, cost in ISK: 0 ( unless he gets ganked) Player B buys his minerals, Cost in ISK: 3600 and runs a few missions to earn 3600 while player A mines his own minerals.
Who make more profit?
Fixed it for you. ---------------- Mutatis Mutandis |
Maerc Atreides
Caldari
|
Posted - 2009.05.06 02:18:00 -
[115]
When I mine I have rats.....lot of rat.....I love rat...rat meat yum yum. Rats also mean salvage, and loot to either sell or reprocess for..........more minerals. And when a rat goes for at least 11k ISK that is even more profit.
MIssions are more profitable per hour, but mining is more for long term results. Not for everyone, but for me
|
Ares Goldstein
|
Posted - 2009.05.06 02:50:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Maerc Atreides When I mine I have rats.....lot of rat.....I love rat...rat meat yum yum. Rats also mean salvage, and loot to either sell or reprocess for..........more minerals. And when a rat goes for at least 11k ISK that is even more profit.
MIssions are more profitable per hour, but mining is more for long term results. Not for everyone, but for me
whats all this about "rat meat yum yum"? I'm not feeling it
|
Josef Huffenpuff
|
Posted - 2009.05.06 04:12:00 -
[117]
Originally by: PassingThrough Wow, I can't believe that this thread is still going.
Well, for one thing I would never sell the raw minerals on the market. That's the stupidest thing that you can do. If I could sell the minerals on the market for more isk than the item that I'm producing then I stop producing that item and start producing something that brings in more profit.
Whether you value your mined minerals in Eve is still just a personal choice. There really isn't a right or wrong way of doing it no matter what the first year college/university students think. This is a game and not real-life. The main force in real-life that drives all the theories that people are quoting is how to reduce the amount of taxes that you have to pay when you sell something. We don't have a complicated tax law in Eve to worry about so stop pretending that we do.
The really dumb people are the ones that can't grasp that Eve is a game.
Out of this whole thread this is the post that made me smile most. Finally you admit that you DO actually sell your manufactured items for more than the component mineral costs because doing otherwise would be stupid.
This is what everyone has been trying to tell you for 4 pages. Do we really need to explain it to you AGAIN why you should assign a "value" to the minerals that you mined for free? It appears that you have actually been doing it all along without realizing it.
|
Tiny Tom
|
Posted - 2009.05.07 01:08:00 -
[118]
Originally by: PassingThrough I prefer:
Profit = [Sell Price ] - [Cost of Materials] - [Production Fees] - [Taxes].
I don't care about what the minerals are valued at by someone else. I only care about what I spent to get them.
The preferred definition of "cost" for accounting is "lesser of market or book value". The data in the game pretty much shuts down the idea that the minerals have a market value of zero.
This would leave you to argue that the book value on those minerals should be zero. I don't think you'd be able to convince an accountant of that. Frankly, by valuing them at zero, you'd argue that trashing the minerals you mined would have no impact on your ability to generate revenue and profit. But that's not true, is it?
Quote: I'm not saying that your accounting practice is wrong. I'm just saying that it's not the accounting practice that I use in a video game where most of the reasons for those real life accounting practices don't apply.
The purpose of accounting is to reliably measure financial performance. If you care about financial performance--imaginary or otherwise--you do it right.
There's nothing wrong with not caring...but it is either ignorant or dishonest to apply accounting terms to numbers arrived at in blatant disregard to the rules of accounting.
Quote: You play the game the way you want to and I'll play it how I want to.
At the end of the day I'll be happy about making lots of profit and you'll be upset that someone has undercut you and you are now loosing isk.
Sounds like I win.
You only win over those too dumb or ignorant to see through your lie or ignorance. (I don't know which applies in your case, but to be honest it doesn't much matter.) In the event you are ignorant, learning how to apply accounting principles properly will help you generate more, not less money.
To the point of the posts original question:
Your method for valuing minerals will probably depend on how you run your business. I'm smaller, so I tend to work from the spot market. That means I buy (or sell) what I need as I need it. As a result, my value of minerals would be set based on what price I could get (either directions) and meet my desired quantity within the number of jumps and warps I'm willing to make.
If I were working on long term market (putting up persistent buy or sell orders), I would value my minerals, I would do so based on the price that sold what I needed to sell or buy what I needed to buy to continue my business.
|
northwesten
Amarr Trinity Corporate Services
|
Posted - 2009.05.07 02:01:00 -
[119]
For me I value them for public sales! is by Average cost. For allies or friends I value them by 5% below the buy orders. Made goods or minerals.
|
Mara Rinn
|
Posted - 2009.05.07 02:09:00 -
[120]
I value minerals by the cost of the cheapest thing on the market that can be refined to produce the same minerals I just mined.
There are plenty of people out there who don't understand opportunity cost, they build things to sell at less than the embedded mineral worth. Don't try educating them, just buy up their underpriced embedded minerals, reprocess them, and post the minerals on the market for a quick, easy profit!
Your purchase encourages them to keep providing the market with cheap minerals. They get to feel good about undercutting the rest of the market for item X with their "free" minerals. It's a win-win situation.
|
|
Agett
Hunerian Science Institute Virtue of Selfishness
|
Posted - 2009.05.07 03:59:00 -
[121]
I just wish it were easier to calculate reprocessing profits. Any programs/xmls out there where you can set the price parse, and easily punch in the reprocess minerals to get a clear profit to compare with? I can probably set this up in a spreadsheet, but if there's already one out there it would be much appreciated.
|
Zer'Adul
Kore Heavy Industries
|
Posted - 2009.05.07 06:09:00 -
[122]
As a miner/manufacturer, value vs cost can be quite the argument.
From the standpoint of one, it's not time = ISK. It's Manufacture Slots = ISK. As long as those slots are full, they are generally making ISK in some way. How they value their resources is irrelevant to the argument.
Miners are Time = ISK. They longer they mine, the more they make. Ratters are the same. Manufacturing is a different ball game in that respect. Minerals mined cost far less then minerals purchased. Value to a buyer is not relevant in this. If I mined those minerals to fuel manufacturing, the cost of them is on the order of pennies to the isk in value. My slots are full, so I'm not out anything by replenishing my mineral stocks for a couple of hours. Minerals purchased have a cost and, by extension, a value. Minerals mined have a value, but next to no cost. When you look at things like this, how does the value = cost theory actually hold up? Value =/= cost by any means. This isn't the real world, most of the usual theories don't hold up. I certainly wouldn't want to try figuring out depreciation on 300 million worth of stocked minerals.
In general, minerals mined for production are valued at 0.01 to 0.05 ISK per unit. If mined for sale, they're valued at whatever the market will bear at the time of mining.
Value is perceived, not derived. If you want to buy the ships I build and reprocess them to sell the minerals, by all means. You'll only make a bit over 100k over what you paid for it after the taxes hit you. My ships generally cost a little less then what the other builders sell for. My costs are generally much lower, as I mine quite a bit of the minerals usually.
As this is a game, manufacturing is meant to be simple. As such, value vs cost really isn't all that relevant. If you don't agree, please reply and bring specifics so we can actually discuss this and avoid the usual flamings....
/me digs out the fire extinguisher just in case.
|
Josef Huffenpuff
|
Posted - 2009.05.08 05:30:00 -
[123]
Look, I'll try not to sound like I'm flaming. So once more from the top......
Yes, the minerals you mine cost you nothing so they are "free", but they have a value that is decided by the market place - not by you.
Originally by: Zer'Adul As a miner/manufacturer, value vs cost can be quite the argument.
From the standpoint of one, it's not time = ISK. It's Manufacture Slots = ISK. As long as those slots are full, they are generally making ISK in some way. How they value their resources is irrelevant to the argument.
No, the slots are costing you around 333 ISK per hour. They are only "making ISK" or to be more accurate, "adding value", if the resulting item has a higher sale price than you could have sold the raw materials for (plus the cost of running the slot). If the sale price of the item is less than the price you could have got for the minerals, then you reduced value from the raw materials. Note, I said "reduced VALUE"
Originally by: Zer'Adul
Minerals mined have a value, but next to no cost.
Correct
Originally by: Zer'Adul
This isn't the real world, most of the usual theories don't hold up.
Actually, yes they do
Originally by: Zer'Adul
I certainly wouldn't want to try figuring out depreciation on 300 million worth of stocked minerals.
You don't need to. Depreciation only applies to things that wear out and have zero value after a finite lifetime. Depreciation is not required in eve because nothing loses its value with time (unless CCP nerf it of course)
Originally by: Zer'Adul
In general, minerals mined for production are valued at 0.01 to 0.05 ISK per unit.
Maybe by you, but you dont really get to set value on your own. Value is set by the market price for the minerals. See your next sentence
Originally by: Zer'Adul
If mined for sale, they're valued at whatever the market will bear at the time of mining.
No, they are valued at the time of SALE
Originally by: Zer'Adul
Value is perceived, not derived.
correct. It's perceived by the market and realized at the time of sale.
Originally by: Zer'Adul
If you want to buy the ships I build and reprocess them to sell the minerals, by all means. You'll only make a bit over 100k over what you paid for it after the taxes hit you. My ships generally cost a little less then what the other builders sell for. My costs are generally much lower, as I mine quite a bit of the minerals usually.
Thanks. yes if I can make 100,000 ISK with a few moments work after you spent weeks training the skill, millions on the blueprint, hours mining, weeks researching and days manufacturing a BS then I will gladly take that money.
Yes, your direct costs are lower. But if you sell a manufactured item for less than the value of it's raw materials, then you lost the OPPORTUNITY to make more money.
Originally by: Zer'Adul
As this is a game, manufacturing is meant to be simple. As such, value vs cost really isn't all that relevant. If you don't agree, please reply and bring specifics so we can actually discuss this and avoid the usual flamings....
Sorry, obviously I don't agree and again sorry if it sounds like I'm flaming. This isn't CAOD. However, the point I'm trying to get across is really quite simple....
You assign a VALUE to minerals you got for free, so that you know you are making more ISK by turning those minerals into an item rather than selling the raw minerals instead. The value of those minerals is the price you could get IF you sold them on the open market. That's it. No more, no less.
Yes, you can choose to "market PvP" by selling items at a lower cost. Assigning a value to you minerals tells you the cost of that PvP. If you look at the marketplace in Jita this way you will realise that most people are simply wasting their time manufacturing.
Originally by: Zer'Adul
/me digs out the fire extinguisher just in case.
Sorry
|
PassingThrough
|
Posted - 2009.05.08 12:08:00 -
[124]
Well, to begin with I never said that I'd sell items below the component mineral costs. Some people seem to read between the lines that when people value their minerals at zero it means that they'd sell them to you for 1 isk and be thrilled.
No, I don't assign a value to my minerals without realizing it. I assign a value of zero to the minerals that I mine. It's the people on the market that assigns a value to my minerals. It's also the people on the market that assign a value to the items that I produce. To me it's all about how much profit I can bring in. I have a rule that I never sell raw minerals because I know it's the stupidest thing to do. I use the market's assigned value to determine which item I can make the most isk from.
As I've said before, we all do pretty much the same thing but the only real difference is what you value your minerals at that you mine yourself. I value mine at zero and you value yours at the market rate. You may make 10% profit on an item while to me it's 200% profit. The isk we bring is in still the same.
Yes, I could sell my products below your production cost and still be happy with the profit I'd make but why would I do that if there is something else to make that brings in more profit?
Originally by: Josef Huffenpuff
Out of this whole thread this is the post that made me smile most. Finally you admit that you DO actually sell your manufactured items for more than the component mineral costs because doing otherwise would be stupid.
This is what everyone has been trying to tell you for 4 pages. Do we really need to explain it to you AGAIN why you should assign a "value" to the minerals that you mined for free? It appears that you have actually been doing it all along without realizing it.
|
Block Ukx
Forge Laboratories
|
Posted - 2009.05.08 12:31:00 -
[125]
Find mineral prices and ore income in our website.
Invest in the mineral market today!
BSAC Mineral Market Manipulation (MinMa) Information Desk |
RaidenMagmus
Darklore United
|
Posted - 2009.05.08 12:49:00 -
[126]
I value my minerals at the max of:
Jita prices - logistics overhead (time for logistics != free) local prices
|
SolidHadden
Minmatar Sphere Industries Majesta Empire
|
Posted - 2009.05.08 15:00:00 -
[127]
I'm a miner, but the second I dock my hauler I say "woot easy 4 mil earned here!" I value my time as the worth of the minerals, that 30mil cost me an hour however when I produce something 4 days later, I value my minerals at their current market prices, if my produced item would be worth less then the value of the minerals I dont produce it cause I'd make a loss my 2 cents sorry I've been reading this topic for the past days and I could agree with some and disagree with others, I think it's a matter of perspective
|
Mara Rinn
|
Posted - 2009.05.11 04:44:00 -
[128]
Originally by: PassingThrough No, I don't assign a value to my minerals without realizing it. I assign a value of zero to the minerals that I mine.
The minerals must have some value to you, otherwise you wouldn't be mining them. Unless you just like watching your Hulk melting away great big chunks of Veldspar, there must be some other value that you obtain from mining those minerals yourself.
|
Baka Lakadaka
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
|
Posted - 2009.05.11 05:45:00 -
[129]
I don't think it matters what value you use, as long as you're consistent with which one you use.
For example I could use the average prices from Eve-central......this provides me with a fairly consistent value. If I buy the minerals for less and I sell my produced items for more, then I'm fairly safe. I add in a buffer - I never buy minerals for more than 20% below the average and I never sell an item for less than 10% above the mineral cost. I assume I don't hang on to minerals too long and I sell what I produce quickly, so this buffer ensures profit unless there's a very sharp movement in prices. ______________________ Isn't it time you learned to fight back? Agony Unleashed Home of the PvP University.
Now Recruiting. |
Vidi Angelus
Caldari Crystal Dynamics Libertas Fidelitas
|
Posted - 2009.05.11 12:36:00 -
[130]
Originally by: Imertu Solientai When I mine I do not pay anything for doing it. I can then refine that ore for 0 ISK too. I paid 0 ISK for the minerals. They are therefore free. This lets me manufacture stuff and sell it for a lot below market price, making me quick profits!
The point isn't the cost, its the value. Why manufacture something and make 5Mil, when you could just sell the materials for less effort, and make 8 mil?
You are making less money for far more work, and destroying the profits of career manufacturers.
However if you'll continue like this, I'll buy everything you make thats under mineral cost
|
|
Baka Lakadaka
Gallente Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
|
Posted - 2009.05.11 13:54:00 -
[131]
Originally by: Vidi Angelus
Originally by: Imertu Solientai When I mine I do not pay anything for doing it. I can then refine that ore for 0 ISK too. I paid 0 ISK for the minerals. They are therefore free. This lets me manufacture stuff and sell it for a lot below market price, making me quick profits!
The point isn't the cost, its the value. Why manufacture something and make 5Mil, when you could just sell the materials for less effort, and make 8 mil?
You are making less money for far more work, and destroying the profits of career manufacturers.
However if you'll continue like this, I'll buy everything you make thats under mineral cost
This has turned into another YANMAFA thread (Yet another minerals are free argument).
I totally agree with the above poster except for the part about destroying other manufacturer's profits. It actually enhances my profits......I get my minerals cheaper by recycling, I just move them into other more profitable modules. It's been years since I mined, I very rarely buy raw minerals and only occasionally buy ore if I can get it really cheap.
True, I have some BPOs that are completely useless for manufacturing now, but at least I can invent off them. One day I might go back and make the modules again, but I'm happy to just store the BPOs until that time.
______________________ Isn't it time you learned to fight back? Agony Unleashed Home of the PvP University.
Now Recruiting. |
Sidrat Flush
Caldari Life is Experience
|
Posted - 2009.05.11 14:30:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Agett I just wish it were easier to calculate reprocessing profits. Any programs/xmls out there where you can set the price parse, and easily punch in the reprocess minerals to get a clear profit to compare with? I can probably set this up in a spreadsheet, but if there's already one out there it would be much appreciated.
See the link in the bio, it'll tell you the reprocessed value at the current mineral prices.
EXP-L EIO ingame for industry, science, and 3rd party app discussion & EXP-L Eve Industrial Organiser |
|
|
|
Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 :: [one page] |