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Turiel Demon Minmatar Shadow Reapers DAMAGE INC...	Posted - 2009.03.31 22:30:00 - [121] Edited by: Turiel Demon on 31/03/2009 22:31:12 Originally by: KhaniKirai So, can tier 3 ships already be thrown in the same useless corner as the socalled faction drones? You know, these silly 1.5 and t2+ types of drones, with the bpc's dropping in exploration sites in drone region, but they are ONLY 5 runs, so not really interesting. The parts are too rare and drop barely, if lucky, you get 2 parts from an container in a site, when you need like 40 items to produce 1 drone. Where you need to get elite ai thingies also for the augmented ones. Result: too much time needed to produce something, that has an effective value, that is even lower then 1 percent of the time invested to produce them. In other words: pointless stuff.... Seems t3 things will go to that corner soon as well, when people realize, they not worth it and then you only get an handfull people doing it, just out of boredom. So THAT is what those 'elite drone AI' thingies are, I always just shrug and leave them in the cans in missions There's always tons of them on contracts, but I don't know if anyone ever buys them. It sounds like T3 is modeled pretty closely on that production method but with CCP's hope that people would make more use of WH space exploration than drone space exploration...
Taius Pax	Posted - 2009.03.31 22:53:00 - [122] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Jennz Originally by: Bellum Eternus [We easily generate 4-5 billion ISK in one go when we find something to do, but the downtime between sessions like that is too long, so the average ISK ends up being below L4 empire mission rates. Err what? You talk about making 4-5 billion ISK in one go like it's nothing, then moan about high-sec profits? I consider myself pretty much on the bleeding edge in mission completion times and I'm certainly not making 4-5 billions a week. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I'm fairly certain I can't kill stuff faster than I am currently. It seems like it's your perspective of profitability is skewed rather than the system itself. Here's a dirty little secret: with the exception of those very few individuals who have found a niche, those legion of CNRs running missions in Motsu etc aren't making 4-5 billion per week, and if you're making anything like that kind of ISK in WHs then you've got nothing to whine about at all. You're doing it wrong. No, you.
Daan Sai Polytrope	Posted - 2009.03.31 23:37:00 - [123] Look, if you really want T3 to fly and develop, listen to the Pirate (OP). If you want w-space to be a part time curiosity then continue as is now. I'm happy to dip into w-space and raid some low level radar sites and get out for some iskies, but if we really want a dependable T3 supply chain then the folks prepared to work at EvE should be able to set up a dependable operation and stick with it, like the Dysp moons for T2. Without this, T3 will die... --------------------------------- Internet Submarines is Serious Business ---------------------------------
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.04.01 00:13:00 - [124] I think it's awesome that w-space is encouraging the nomads and explorers and discouraging the number-crunchers and accountants... absolutely awesome. There's already plenty of activities for those who care about maximum isk per hour of flying. I fly with a corp that's been nomadic in 0.0 space for a couple years now and we are right at home in w-space. We've never bothered with POSs or logistics and I really couldn't imagine being tied down with a "ball and chain" of infrastructure to drag around with us as we explore. Party on in w-space! CCP thanks for giving us wanderers someplace groovy. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
Indigo Johnson Minmatar	Posted - 2009.04.01 01:25:00 - [125] Bellum, try it another way. Base in low sec or npc 0.0 and scan out WHs there, you say you are a group so there should be 2-3+ people scanning right? You should come up with multiple wh's in the space of 30mins or so i reckon (if you have a group scanning, unless your unlucky) and should have them scanned out inside in 30-40mins tops to see if there are any low strength radar/mag sites. Don't find any? Move on. Sometimes you will get lucky, hit a systems with 2 mag sites or a few radar, sometimes it will just be a tonne of grav and a few wh to high sec, thats the random nature of the beast, but buy spreading your bets from k-space and having multiple peeps scan multiple wh's you increase your chance of hitting the mag sites and those juicy intact hull sections :P
ivar R'dhak Minmatar	Posted - 2009.04.01 01:44:00 - [126] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: CCP Greyscale It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed. Thanks for the input Greyscale! This really helps me out with respect to making some decisions about the time cost of developing w-space ventures. Back to k-space it is... Yes. Thnx Greyscale for clearing up that last retSrded design decision you guys made, to render the new content irrelevant. Apart from loosing skillpoints I paid for, if I get shot down in my shiny new T3 cruiser. Canceling accounts, back in a year or so. Maybe you¦ll learn your lessons in time for walking on planets. Back to the fanbois. _ Mal-`Appears we got here just in a nick of time. What does that make us?¦ Zoe-¦Big damn heroes sir.¦ Mal-¦Aint we just.¦
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.04.01 01:48:00 - [127] Originally by: ivar R'dhak Canceling accounts, back in a year or so. Bye :) ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
JfG D00MSAYER Caldari Black Mesa Nexus-Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.01 02:12:00 - [128] Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri I think it's awesome that w-space is encouraging the nomads and explorers and discouraging the number-crunchers and accountants... absolutely awesome. There's already plenty of activities for those who care about maximum isk per hour of flying. I fly with a corp that's been nomadic in 0.0 space for a couple years now and we are right at home in w-space. We've never bothered with POSs or logistics and I really couldn't imagine being tied down with a "ball and chain" of infrastructure to drag around with us as we explore. Party on in w-space! CCP thanks for giving us wanderers someplace groovy. Im sure everyone who likes the nomad-way will be happy. But why limit it to only that way, it cant be that hard to make nomads and settlements in wormhole space balanced/interesting with positive and negative sides for each. So that nomads have the bonus of a new system with lots of anomalies every day and the settlers arent bored to hell most of their playtime. Kind of interesting why this was an early design limitation that "farming" sleepers/fullerenes isnt allowed Who could afford a battleship or even a capital ship if u couldnt mine lots of minerals in highsec/0.0 every day? Who could afford a T2 cruiser/BS if you had to move your pos every few weeks for more moonminerals?
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.01 03:00:00 - [129] Now, can cynos be opened in W-Space? This would certainly be a buff to black ops I suppose. --
Artassaut Minmatar Oblivion Amalgamated	Posted - 2009.04.01 03:47:00 - [130] Originally by: Marcus Druallis Now, can cynos be opened in W-Space? This would certainly be a buff to black ops I suppose. No. Even if you could, I'd like to see someone jump that distance. --- The Gate: Lol, try targeting me in a fleet fight. The Station: No U.
Dave Tehsulei Atomic Battle Penguins The Darwin Award Foundation	Posted - 2009.04.01 04:30:00 - [131] All I see in this thread is lots of people looking for a new way to farm isk... It should be impossible for a group to "claim" a system long term by means of pos, i think the whole idea of pos in wh space just opens it up to becoming a mirror of 0.0 with local replaced by the scan button. If you want to farm the resources in whs you should come prepared to fight off others looking to do the same and you most certainly shouldn't have the option to hide in your pos and wait till they leave(ie the standard 0.0 method). Any claim to a wh system should only be as good as the defenders skills and ships not their pos modules. Im glad to read ccps intention was to make it hard to "settle" in a system, this is perfect and as it should be. It doesnt mean you cant live long term inside wh space itself - With the right ships and a bit of planning long term operations through systems can be done without the need of anchoring pos or claiming/basing from one system. The new systems are profitable enough to encourage people to keep making trips back and fourth between known and unknown space and this is good it provides new opportunities for pvp. If theres some suggestion that eventually all of unknown space is going to be void of any anomalies i doubt very much ccp will allow it to occur and my own ventures into wh space from empire and 0.0 have yet to lead me to a system without significant resources to exploit. ------- Forum \| Website
The Snowman Gallente Wurmz.	Posted - 2009.04.01 08:40:00 - [132] Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri I think it's awesome that w-space is encouraging the nomads and explorers and discouraging the number-crunchers and accountants... absolutely awesome. I think your missing the point. Everyone already agree's its lots of fun. Originally by: Dave Tehsulei All I see in this thread is lots of people looking for a new way to farm isk... And you too. Forget the POS, forget methods of farming and investing in something that has x amounts of reward. The point is that CCP advertised this through many blogs and interviews and lectures right up until release that wormhole space represented a place of "greater risk but with greater reward" Alow that to sink into your minds for a moment. What is the risk, and is it risky? YES, read the forums, many many many stories of people going into wh-space and losing their ship and their pod's for nothing, not just cheap ships, very expensive ships. So the risk is defiantly greater, but the rewards? You have to realize that people arnt upset because there is no new method of farming, and people accept that players love the exploration, but this is not what were told to expect, and this is whats frustrating. Its like you buying a chocolate cake, taking it home only to find you have something completely different, ok it may be nice for some of your guests it maybe even nicer, but thats not the reason you bought it! and you would most defiantly complain. And thats what this thread is.
The Blinded GK inc.	Posted - 2009.04.01 10:35:00 - [133] Not sure if it was mentioned in this thread, but you do know that warping a capital ship onto some site in W-space spawns 6 sleeper BS right? :p Maybe you can chain-farm like that with few carriers.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.04.01 11:38:00 - [134] Originally by: JfG D00MSAYER Im sure everyone who likes the nomad-way will be happy. But why limit it to only that way, it cant be that hard to make nomads and settlements in wormhole space balanced/interesting with positive and negative sides for each. So that nomads have the bonus of a new system with lots of anomalies every day and the settlers arent bored to hell most of their playtime. Kind of interesting why this was an early design limitation that "farming" ? I get what you're saying. I think the answer is "Yes, it is that hard to balance." Look at 0.0 space and the sov situation for the past couple years. If "farming" was a viable venture in w-space it would only be a matter of time before the independant, opportunistic, pioneering corporations are systematically driven out by mega-alliances moving in to take over the farms. They don't need dread-fleets to do it. They can starve out settlers with a dedicated combat group in-system, bubbling every wormhole, camping the sites, and destroying haulers full of POS fuel. The alliances have endured years of POS/sov warfare. They have the dedication to do this. Once a system is "claimed" by an alliance it is generally no longer open to nomads and explorers. The groups who would take over w-space would bring the tried and true NBSI rules of 0.0 in and shoot anyone attempting to get a piece of "thier" resources and "thier" Sleeper sites.
The Snowman Gallente Wurmz.	Posted - 2009.04.01 11:56:00 - [135] Originally by: The Blinded Not sure if it was mentioned in this thread, but you do know that warping a capital ship onto some site in W-space spawns 6 sleeper BS right? :p Yes, you can generate yourself more risk, but you cant generate yourself more reward. Those extra BS's will take a certain amount of extra time to go through, but the reward is no greater. Once you figure out how to tank the sleepers the greatest risk of Wspace becomes getting lost / player-ganked. The longer you stay there the greater that risk becomes, so simply spawning more stuff to do is not a solution, in fact its opposite! it merly generates more risk.... which again means CCP's "greater risk = greater reward" advert is wrong. its more like "greater risk = lesser rewards" Its almost as if CCP are deliberately luring players to wpsace under the guise of more rewards, when in fact its not, its a money sink. Its becoming increasingly clear, expansion after expansion that CCP cannot get this right, Even though they employ a dedicated "economist" Which no other MMO's does.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.04.01 12:42:00 - [136] Originally by: The Snowman The point is that CCP advertised this through many blogs and interviews and lectures right up until release that wormhole space represented a place of "greater risk but with greater reward" Alow that to sink into your minds for a moment. What is the risk, and is it risky? YES, read the forums, many many many stories of people going into wh-space and losing their ship and their pod's for nothing, not just cheap ships, very expensive ships. So the risk is defiantly greater, but the rewards? You have to realize that people arnt upset because there is no new method of farming, and people accept that players love the exploration, but this is not what were told to expect, and this is whats frustrating. So - we want something new and different to explore but we also demand full disclosure of all the details before we explore the new and different thing and we complain if there are discrepancies between our pre-exploration assumptions from the disclosure.... Are you sure you are the type of person who enjoys exploration? What I'm getting is that the people upset here are the type would would plan out a schedule and itenerary for every minute of a vacation and get stressed out if they got off-schedule on day 3 of "relaxing".
Derus Grobb Selectus Pravus Lupus	Posted - 2009.04.09 23:41:00 - [137] Originally by: Jalum Krayal We might as well rename Strategic Cruisers to Siigari cruisers until they do. First of all, lol at that. I hate this "ISK/hour" thing the OP mentions. You have to understand that not everyone sees the game in those terms. What's wrong with just having fun and making a healthy bit of ISK in the process? I live in a medium WH POS with a few other guys. Yes its a sacrifice, yes some days there are only gravimetric spawns and there are not always sleepers to kill. My advice is this. Don't try to farm only your own system, fly through an exit wormhole and scan the other side. Today I jumped to a lowsec k-space and there were 4 radar sites sitting there, with nobody in local. Two days ago a k-space system neighbouring our exit system yielded a WH with over 300 million isk of gas in a single LADAR site. Eureka! To the person whining because they have to sit and wait while the prober does his thing, this is exploration! Where would the fun be if everything apeared on your overview? Originally by: Dave Tehsulei If you want to farm the resources in whs you should come prepared to fight off others looking to do the same and you most certainly shouldn't have the option to hide in your pos and wait till they leave My guys left their cosy level 4s and paid a few hundred mil for the POS, the fuel, the logistical hassles. I think we most certainly should be able to get a tactical advantage from it. And anyway, we don't hide, we pew pew ---
crastar	Posted - 2009.04.10 22:33:00 - [138] Originally by: Derus Grobb Originally by: Jalum Krayal We might as well rename Strategic Cruisers to Siigari cruisers until they do. First of all, lol at that. I hate this "ISK/hour" thing the OP mentions. You have to understand that not everyone sees the game in those terms. What's wrong with just having fun and making a healthy bit of ISK in the process? I live in a medium WH POS with a few other guys. Yes its a sacrifice, yes some days there are only gravimetric spawns and there are not always sleepers to kill. My advice is this. Don't try to farm only your own system, fly through an exit wormhole and scan the other side. Today I jumped to a lowsec k-space and there were 4 radar sites sitting there, with nobody in local. Two days ago a k-space system neighbouring our exit system yielded a WH with over 300 million isk of gas in a single LADAR site. Eureka! To the person whining because they have to sit and wait while the prober does his thing, this is exploration! Where would the fun be if everything apeared on your overview? Originally by: Dave Tehsulei If you want to farm the resources in whs you should come prepared to fight off others looking to do the same and you most certainly shouldn't have the option to hide in your pos and wait till they leave My guys left their cosy level 4s and paid a few hundred mil for the POS, the fuel, the logistical hassles. I think we most certainly should be able to get a tactical advantage from it. And anyway, we don't hide, we pew pew You can hate the isk/hour thing all you want, it wont change the fact that without isk/hour you wouldn't be in a wormhole to begin with, and the ship you are flying would never have been produced be it T1 or T2. The OP is making a valid point, unless something changes T3 production will never achieve anything like T2. Simple as that.
Xessej	Posted - 2009.04.11 00:08:00 - [139] So CCP doesn't want people settling in w space? A simple question for the devs then, why are there fixed grav sites in w space systems. My corp has settled a class 3 system and we are very methodical about scanning and in 2 weeks it has become quite clear that 8 grav sites (2 each of 4 low end kinds) are fixed in the system. mine them out and they despawn and a brand new identical one spawns. Now we're thankful for those grav sites as they provide us a little loot, salvage and an opportunity to mine while we chat etc. waiting around for the good stuff to spawn but they seem expressly intended to provide basic minerals for manufacturing consumables for people who live in w space. If those 8 sites, and what 20k others like them in the rest of w space, are part of the total number of cosmic sigs then randomize them some. Having to scan down the same 8 sites every couple of days is beyond tedious.
Valeronx Celestial Horizon Corp. I.C.C Industrial Drive Yards	Posted - 2009.04.11 02:15:00 - [140] Originally by: Marlenus Originally by: Bellum Eternus So no, my perspective isn't skewed. It's just that most players aren't thinking on a large enough scale or just simply aren't that high performance enough to appreciate the maximum extrapolation of the game design limitations. Yeah, your perspective is skewed. That large-scale high-performance min-maxing isn't the only way to attack this game. It may be your preferred approach, but that doesn't mean every new feature has to offer more isk/hour than min-maxed missioning or ratting in order to be a success. It's very possible -- I'm not saying it will happen, just saying it could happen -- that lots of people will go to w-space, and in the end produce enough resources to support a flourishing T3 industry, even if the profit from it all never reaches even a tenth of what you could make missioning or ratting as a min-maxed oldster. Not everybody is a profit maximizer. Lots of people hate mission running no matter how much it pays. ISK is nice stuff, but it's not the only stuff. This. .
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.04.11 02:28:00 - [141] Originally by: Valeronx Originally by: Marlenus Originally by: Bellum Eternus So no, my perspective isn't skewed. It's just that most players aren't thinking on a large enough scale or just simply aren't that high performance enough to appreciate the maximum extrapolation of the game design limitations. Yeah, your perspective is skewed. That large-scale high-performance min-maxing isn't the only way to attack this game. It may be your preferred approach, but that doesn't mean every new feature has to offer more isk/hour than min-maxed missioning or ratting in order to be a success. It's very possible -- I'm not saying it will happen, just saying it could happen -- that lots of people will go to w-space, and in the end produce enough resources to support a flourishing T3 industry, even if the profit from it all never reaches even a tenth of what you could make missioning or ratting as a min-maxed oldster. Not everybody is a profit maximizer. Lots of people hate mission running no matter how much it pays. ISK is nice stuff, but it's not the only stuff. This. . Yep, this. I'd leave the game before I'd min/max or calculate isk per hour for my entertainment time. Risk vs. reward? Dunno.. never calculated that either. I've been having fun flying for over three years without bothering with these concepts - obviously these things are not required. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises	Posted - 2009.04.11 03:31:00 - [142] Not enough isk per hour for you in wormholes? Well at least the isk is there to be made somewhere. It could be like the last huge content add they called Factional Warfare. People started wondering where the reward part of the risk was and CCP just said 'fun IS the reward'. I think the pain in the ass you are experiencing is the check/balance to battle possible hardcore farming. ---------- Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherf***er.
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.04.11 20:39:00 - [143] Originally by: HankMurphy It could be like the last huge content add they called Factional Warfare. People started wondering where the reward part of the risk was and CCP just said 'fun IS the reward'. Actually I worry that it could turn out like that, because with FW, there wasn't enough fun to sustain the economic losses, and people started quitting in droves. At which point CCP said words to the effect of "that's cool, we didn't want FW to compete with the the 0.0 manpower pool anyway" and left it alone -- essentially abandoning unfinished a feature that was once supposed to be game-changing. Wormholes, unlike FW, do have some financial rewards built in, so I don't think the risk is as large; there's a lot of fun and some loot to be had, so there will always be wormhole divers even if T3 fails miserably. I appreciate the folks who have concurred with me that min-maxing is not the only way to play this game; but that doesn't mean I despise all ISK considerations. The hope for a financial score underlies everything I do in EVE, and I had to give up on faction warfare in large part because there was no hope there. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Marcus Tedric Gallente Tedric Enterprises The Star League	Posted - 2009.04.13 14:14:00 - [144] Originally by: The Snowman ...... Its becoming increasingly clear, expansion after expansion that CCP cannot get this right, Even though they employ a dedicated "economist" Which no other MMO's does. Unless something has changed in the last year-and-a-half since I asked him at his (and my) first Fanfest dear old 'Dr E' doesn't actually play EVE. Nothing in the, very occasional, so-called, 'Quarterly reviews', changes my view that he applies the statistics he gathers to book-Economics (like many people do) and draws specious conclusions. He's not alone in this mind you - thousands of people make completely arbitary statements based on some statistics every day if it happens to support their agenda. What CCP should have done is employ a very intelligent player with a statistical background who then queries and checks the reasons behind every figure they see. For my part, I just hope EVE continues to 'try and make sense' and has some reasonable amount of logic behind it - and amongst that are indeed all the arguments and discussions of 'risk vs reward' and 'isk per hour'. Yes, Lvl 4 missions do generate completely rediculous amounts of isk for the time invested - but there are many sensible reasons for this in the game design that enable EVE to be the game it is. M2CW
ollobrains Caldari State Inc. People for Organised Peace	Posted - 2009.04.22 01:05:00 - [145] ok so ccp invest probably millions in this latest sleeper expansion and now dont want peeps settling in those systems or even perhaps even spawning sleeper sites ..... ok so then why the frak go ahead with it , shooting themselves in the foot or is it not ship related so it gets nerfed haha typical
ollobrains Caldari State Inc. People for Organised Peace	Posted - 2009.04.22 02:01:00 - [146] so if its working as intended what next just close the wormholes and go back to existing space or use em as transit pionts only ?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.04.22 02:28:00 - [147] Edited by: Akita T on 22/04/2009 02:30:44 Originally by: CCP Greyscale It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed. Can you say "tragedy of the commons" ? Congratulations on killing your own baby. P.S. Of course, you went back on it and gave everybody freaking humongous regular ore asteroids instead on a regular basis. That doesn't make any sense no matter how you look at it : you either want people to move the frak out, or you want them to make a steady profit. CCP's design decisions almost look like the ones a canary high on sugar water with LSD would make.
Isaac Starstriker Amarr Solaris Operations	Posted - 2009.04.22 03:33:00 - [148] Fine, all of you quit Exploring Wormholes (lol at idiot who wants to have a new dyso moon. That's a terrible mechanic and incredibly boring). Myself and people who are like minded will reap the benefits of a hell of a lot less competition. Fun is what we are having. No war-deck issues, no politics, lots of new space and challenges. You all go back to the grind of 0.0 and blob fests. Quit the game, curse CCP, whatever you want to do. I'll still be here having fun and chilling. --Isaac Isaac's Haul*Mart - Open
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.04.22 03:55:00 - [149] OP is angry about not being able to farm NPCs? Go back to friggin' WoW, you carebear. The multiple dev blogs about wormholes CLEARLY state how you are supposed to explore, move around and engage others, not sit in one place and farm isk. Seriously, stop trying to change the game into a boring, oversimplified wow clone.
ollobrains Caldari State Inc. People for Organised Peace	Posted - 2009.04.22 08:30:00 - [150] well for wormhole residents it might just mean more trips out of their native systems into empty neighbouring systems

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