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W-Space Exploration Site Respawn Rates- what gives CCP?

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Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.29 18:57:00 - [1] With a relatively small crew (5-6 guys) we're able to fully exploit a Tier 5 wormhole in an afternoon. All the Ladar, Radar and Magnetometric sites run completely through and salvaged, and all of the anomalies run as well. Of course, we ignore grav sites as they're simply not worth the cargo space to haul the garbage ore out. This would be all well and good if the respawn rate for the sites were every 12 or even 24 hours, but as it sits now we're going on 3+ days with nothing respawning in our base w-space system. Now we've taken to venturing into neighboring w-space systems to exploit the resources there, but generally they end up being crappy Tier2/Tier3 systems. This is a really lousy return on our time and effort investing in w-space operations. We could all very easily be making more ISK/hour risk free in high sec space. W-Space isn't better just because it's 'more fun' than other space. It's the same gameplay, with added risk. That's perfectly acceptable. I'd just like to get paid for the added risk. 'Fun' doesn't count. The productivity rates of small groups occupying w-space is terrible. So much downtime, nothing to do to keep occupied. I've been considering another approach- being very mobile and just hopping from one w-space system to the next, burning through whatever content is there and then on to the next one, but this presents too many problems and too much risk for too little end results. We still end up spending too much time simply searching out what little content there is to pursue, and when we find something, we're done with it inside of 15 minutes and then it's on to the next w-space system. These systems are quite unlike 0.0 systems in that they don't have resources that can be exploited 24 hours a day. You can't mine more than a few sites (gas clouds) before they're gone. There is no constant supply of sleeper NPCs to kill. Now, I don't want w-space to be 'easy mode', and I don't expect it to be a copy of what is available in 0.0 either (resource wise), but I do expect w-space to have enough content in it to keep a very small group of players occupied 24/7. Otherwise what you're going to see (already seeing) is vast tracks of empty space with nobody in them because they're all milked dry of any sort of resource. Are there people to kill in w-space? Sure there are. Cloaked CovOps pilots looking for resources and not finding any. Why bring in other ships when there is nothing to bring them in for? My buddies and I saddled up for a grand adventure and all we have netted so far is some little fish and an old shoe. And as an aside- the Tier6 stuff, still not worth the rewards. The ISK per player is less than the Tier5 space once you consider the group size required to run the sites and how much ISK you're getting out of the loot. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.03.29 19:11:00 - [2] Possibly why they devs kept hinting that yes you can set up a permanent or at least long term presence in a wormhole system but good luck making it economically viable. Remember there are 2500 systems out there so it looks like nomadic fleets are going to be the norm. Eat up one systems sites then go to the next one till you are all dead or eventually find the way out with cargoholds filled with loot. Yay! Got meh sig back! ♥ Weatherman
Valeronx Gallente Celestial Horizon Corp. I.C.C Industrial Drive Yards	Posted - 2009.03.29 19:12:00 - [3] Just to be clear, your saying that when you entered the WH system and there were ( just for instance ) 5 anomalies and 20 signatures. You ran the 5 anomalies and the 7 sigs that were not Grav sites, leaving 13 grav sigs alone. Now after 3 days there are still just the 13 Grav sites ? It does seem that something should have re-spawned in that time .
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.03.29 19:14:00 - [4] Another possiblity is that your might have to spawn all the sites regardless of type to get new sites to spawn. Try going to each grav site to activate them so they can expire and see if new stuff pops up. Yay! Got meh sig back! ♥ Weatherman
Anglo Minmatar Astral Mexicans	Posted - 2009.03.29 19:15:00 - [5] same prop we have! nothing but grac **** to be found.. however i think its a bug.. it started after the last patch... seem like it made the sleepers go to sleep... cause we havent found a single site beside grav ever since.!
Anglo Minmatar Astral Mexicans	Posted - 2009.03.29 19:17:00 - [6] ps we actually mined the grav sites out.. and they respawn... or should i say change position.. when we been in a belt all day then all of asudden its gone and we rescan... so no you do not have to kill it all... its the good sites that does not respawn or atleast new ones isent comming! maybe we scared the sleepers DOH i thought they were BADASS..
Turiel Demon Minmatar Shadow Reapers DAMAGE INC...	Posted - 2009.03.29 19:19:00 - [7] Exactly the same here, we've got a POS in a class 4, which when entered had 15 or so sites, and a class 5 next door. Since then we've had only 1 exit WH at a time, 10 times out of 11 leading to a class 1/2 system, and we're down to 9 sites, all grav, all utterly pointless; it wouldn't be too bad except that half the time the WH won't let our BS through to even exploit neighbour-of-neighbour w space. Right now it's a 50/50 split in corp as to abandoning WH's altogether.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.29 19:20:00 - [8] Originally by: Valeronx Just to be clear, your saying that when you entered the WH system and there were ( just for instance ) 5 anomalies and 20 signatures. You ran the 5 anomalies and the 7 sigs that were not Grav sites, leaving 13 grav sigs alone. Now after 3 days there are still just the 13 Grav sites ? It does seem that something should have re-spawned in that time . Yes. We've had a Tier5 system locked down tight for the better part of two weeks now, and we've crushed every available resource, besides the grav sites. Nothing is respawning, and when we go to next door w-space systems and farm those we sometimes have the wormholes up for more than 24 hours, and nothing respawns in them either. Now, if CCP wants T3 stuff to be 'cheap', this is totally the wrong way to do it. The material output so far has been really bad, and if that wasn't the worst part, the sheer boredom is just unbearable. Since there is no clonejumping, a LOT of us are spending time on SISI tinkering with stuff because there's simply nothing to do and we have all of our characters committed to w-space. It's really lame. To the point of just getting rid of the whole thing and going back to k-space. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.03.29 19:20:00 - [9] Originally by: Valeronx Just to be clear, your saying that when you entered the WH system and there were ( just for instance ) 5 anomalies and 20 signatures. You ran the 5 anomalies and the 7 sigs that were not Grav sites, leaving 13 grav sigs alone. Now after 3 days there are still just the 13 Grav sites ? It does seem that something should have re-spawned in that time . I'm sure that this will be fixed even faster that the drone space asteroids!
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.29 19:21:00 - [10] Originally by: Turiel Demon Exactly the same here, we've got a POS in a class 4, which when entered had 15 or so sites, and a class 5 next door. Since then we've had only 1 exit WH at a time, 10 times out of 11 leading to a class 1/2 system, and we're down to 9 sites, all grav, all utterly pointless; it wouldn't be too bad except that half the time the WH won't let our BS through to even exploit neighbour-of-neighbour w space. Right now it's a 50/50 split in corp as to abandoning WH's altogether. Exactly. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting

Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.03.29 19:28:00 - [11] Originally by: Anglo ps we actually mined the grav sites out.. and they respawn... or should i say change position.. when we been in a belt all day then all of asudden its gone and we rescan... so no you do not have to kill it all... its the good sites that does not respawn or atleast new ones isent comming! maybe we scared the sleepers DOH i thought they were BADASS.. Ah in that case its probably a bug in the respawn table and will get fixed if enough people petition it. Its a good thing I decided to wait a bit till mounting an expedition to wh space as the majority of preconceptions about it seem to have proven false. Yay! Got meh sig back! ♥ Weatherman
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.03.29 19:30:00 - [12] Edited by: Kahega Amielden on 29/03/2009 19:31:26 Quote: This is a really lousy return on our time and effort investing in w-space operations. We could all very easily be making more ISK/hour risk free in high sec space. Indication that hisec is overpowered, not that w-space is borked. Also...hint: You can fly ships other than BS. Also, you can offline any plates you may have to lower your mass. Although if w-space respawning is bugged then naturally it should be fixed.
Anglo Minmatar Astral Mexicans	Posted - 2009.03.29 19:37:00 - [13] well ccp better fix this... its very borring atm... VERY!
JfG D00MSAYER Caldari Black Mesa Nexus-Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.29 19:53:00 - [14] We have exactly the same problem. Especially the gravimetric sites are broken/useless. The ore itself isnt that good. Add the hauling to get it reprocessed or even worse a refining array that uses nearly all of your CPU on the tower. When we entered and set up our pos we had 2 gravimetrics called "unexceptional frontier deposits" at the outer planet (V). These despawned after 4 days and came back at planet IV. 2 of us mined one of them and it respawned at planet III. After mining the other one at planet IV it respawned at planet III too Dont know how the other gravimetrics (we have a total of 9) behaved so far exactly but as far as i can see i really dont want to know If u want to break it down to risk/effort to reward you are still better off mining in highsec or running lvl4s
Turiel Demon Minmatar Shadow Reapers DAMAGE INC...	Posted - 2009.03.29 20:15:00 - [15] I think it wouldn't be so bad if things like 'Unusual Core Deposit' and similar grav sites which are actually moderately tough to track down, and as such time consuming, would actually produce more ISK/h than mining veldspar in empire before annoyances of logistics were taken into account, let alone calculating those aspects in to it.
Roemy Schneider BINFORD	Posted - 2009.03.29 20:51:00 - [16] one can go go belt-ratting in the grav sites, basically just like known space :o - putting the gist back into logistics
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.03.29 20:52:00 - [17] Originally by: Roemy Schneider one can go go belt-ratting in the grav sites, basically just like known space :o With sleeper rats? Originally by: Achar Losa i might be just a 6 year old stupid boy, but he's a CCP dev writing in the forums!
harogen Malevolent Evolution The Church.	Posted - 2009.03.29 20:54:00 - [18] Few things, For starters, exploration sites respawn from a pool of choices every 72 hours. It was that way long before wormhole space. Secondly, setup in deadly space (tier 6) and chance are each day new wormholes will open into tier 4 and 5. True you won't be able to do much in your own space, but think of it as more of a basing point rather than a home. ---------------------------------------- ohai! :D
harogen Malevolent Evolution The Church.	Posted - 2009.03.29 20:55:00 - [19] Originally by: Roemy Schneider one can go go belt-ratting in the grav sites, basically just like known space :o Depends on what you want, only a few Core Grav sites are worth doing this in, and its a one shot type thing since they don't respawn. ---------------------------------------- ohai! :D
Ashina Sito Gallente Center for Advanced Studies	Posted - 2009.03.29 20:56:00 - [20] Originally by: Zeba Possibly why they devs kept hinting that yes you can set up a permanent or at least long term presence in a wormhole system but good luck making it economically viable. Gonna repost this. Mabe your problem is your doing it wrong. Don't camp a WH system. Camp k-space looking for WH systems. Farm what comes up and leave. Move to the next one.

Jana Clant New Dawn Tribe New Eden Research	Posted - 2009.03.29 21:22:00 - [21] Edited by: Jana Clant on 29/03/2009 21:23:23 Originally by: Ashina Sito Originally by: Zeba Possibly why they devs kept hinting that yes you can set up a permanent or at least long term presence in a wormhole system but good luck making it economically viable. Gonna repost this. Mabe your problem is your doing it wrong. Don't camp a WH system. Camp k-space looking for WH systems. Farm what comes up and leave. Move to the next one. This. Now if grav sites were less common. Deep space probes were great for this, as they could easily identify site types even at low strength, before CCP nerfed them into oblivion. Nowadays your scan prober spends 80% of his time chasing useless sites around and getting frustrated. New Eden Research, where your research gets done!
Turiel Demon Minmatar Shadow Reapers DAMAGE INC...	Posted - 2009.03.29 21:42:00 - [22] I'm wondering if it would be any better if there were more WHs linking all the systems. I don't get why W-space needs to be so difficult to get around in. I've got limited experience so far but it seems that the higher the quality W-space the lower the number of WHs in them. Low qualities, reachable from empire have 2 or 3 pretty much invariably, while the tier4 we've been in for the last week and a bit hasn't had more than 1 WH at a time. If each tier4-6 had at minimum 2 WHs (preferably 3, and if then at least 2 of those to other W-space systems), I don't think this would be a problem... any downsides?
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.03.29 21:51:00 - [23] Quote: Don't camp a WH system. Camp k-space looking for WH systems. Farm what comes up and leave. Move to the next one. this too Quote: I've got limited experience so far but it seems that the higher the quality W-space the lower the number of WHs in them. Low qualities, reachable from empire have 2 or 3 pretty much invariably, while the tier4 we've been in for the last week and a bit hasn't had more than 1 WH at a time. If each tier4-6 had at minimum 2 WHs (preferably 3, and if then at least 2 of those to other W-space systems), I don't think this would be a problem... any downsides? If this is true and not just bad luck on your part, I agree.
Khlitouris RegusII	Posted - 2009.03.29 22:17:00 - [24] CCP did say they had improved wormhole npc's ai maybe the npc's have decided it's not economically viable for them to keep respawning in a system camped by pod pilots and they all decided to relocate to a less busy system.
Polly Prissypantz Dingleberry Appreciation Society	Posted - 2009.03.30 07:25:00 - [25] Originally by: Khlitouris RegusII CCP did say they had improved wormhole npc's ai maybe the npc's have decided it's not economically viable for them to keep respawning in a system camped by pod pilots and they all decided to relocate to a less busy system. So you're saying the rats are smarter than Motsu mission runners?
Cors It's A Trap	Posted - 2009.03.30 07:32:00 - [26] My corp gave up after a week and a half. It just as not worth the down time. Even moveing from system to sytem, it just was not worth the time spent. You spend half your time just waiting around. Either waiting till your team gets online so we can all move to the next system, or waiting while the probers do their thing.
Rivqua Caldari Omega Wing R.E.P.O.	Posted - 2009.03.30 07:50:00 - [27] Originally by: Bellum Eternus With a relatively small crew (5-6 guys) we're able to fully exploit a Tier 5 wormhole in an afternoon. All the Ladar, Radar and Magnetometric sites run completely through and salvaged, and all of the anomalies run as well. Of course, we ignore grav sites as they're simply not worth the cargo space to haul the garbage ore out. This would be all well and good if the respawn rate for the sites were every 12 or even 24 hours, but as it sits now we're going on 3+ days with nothing respawning in our base w-space system. Now we've taken to venturing into neighboring w-space systems to exploit the resources there, but generally they end up being crappy Tier2/Tier3 systems. This is a really lousy return on our time and effort investing in w-space operations. We could all very easily be making more ISK/hour risk free in high sec space. W-Space isn't better just because it's 'more fun' than other space. It's the same gameplay, with added risk. That's perfectly acceptable. I'd just like to get paid for the added risk. 'Fun' doesn't count. The productivity rates of small groups occupying w-space is terrible. So much downtime, nothing to do to keep occupied. I've been considering another approach- being very mobile and just hopping from one w-space system to the next, burning through whatever content is there and then on to the next one, but this presents too many problems and too much risk for too little end results. We still end up spending too much time simply searching out what little content there is to pursue, and when we find something, we're done with it inside of 15 minutes and then it's on to the next w-space system. These systems are quite unlike 0.0 systems in that they don't have resources that can be exploited 24 hours a day. You can't mine more than a few sites (gas clouds) before they're gone. There is no constant supply of sleeper NPCs to kill. Now, I don't want w-space to be 'easy mode', and I don't expect it to be a copy of what is available in 0.0 either (resource wise), but I do expect w-space to have enough content in it to keep a very small group of players occupied 24/7. Otherwise what you're going to see (already seeing) is vast tracks of empty space with nobody in them because they're all milked dry of any sort of resource. Are there people to kill in w-space? Sure there are. Cloaked CovOps pilots looking for resources and not finding any. Why bring in other ships when there is nothing to bring them in for? My buddies and I saddled up for a grand adventure and all we have netted so far is some little fish and an old shoe. And as an aside- the Tier6 stuff, still not worth the rewards. The ISK per player is less than the Tier5 space once you consider the group size required to run the sites and how much ISK you're getting out of the loot. They work like plexes in K-Space, you kill them, they respawn in a different system. Your biggest problem is that noone else is clearing Level 5s at the same rate you are, so when they respawn somewhere else, they are not being killed of, so they respawn elswhere again, possibly in your system. I am pretty confident that there is a very constant amount of Class-5 plexes out there (anomalies/radar/mag/grav), but they move around the systems as people finisht them off. So when your cov ops finds you one Class 5 and your fleet start clearing it, he should immidiately start looking for the next system, and hopefully be done finding it by the time you've cleared it. So in conclusion, working as intended, you need to move around, WH systems can be colonized for PoS ops and such, but not for profitability in sleepers, not until alot more peeps are running them, so you get a constant respawn rate based on plexes being killed of outside your system. _________________ - Rivqua - --- R.E.P.O. ---
Xalabaster	Posted - 2009.03.30 07:56:00 - [28] Originally by: Ashina Sito Originally by: Zeba Possibly why they devs kept hinting that yes you can set up a permanent or at least long term presence in a wormhole system but good luck making it economically viable. Gonna repost this. Mabe your problem is your doing it wrong. Don't camp a WH system. Camp k-space looking for WH systems. Farm what comes up and leave. Move to the next one. This. What is so difficult to understanding the core concept of W-Space? That space is NOT meant to be occupied for a long time therefore the low respawn rate. This is not nullsec nor highsec space. If you ask me, w-space is perfectly balanced the way it is. Reading OPs post, they didnt find yet what makes WHs truly profitable... Not happy with it? Then W-Space exploration and occupation is not for you... Let us take care of it, thank you! :0)
Cailais Amarr Diablo Advocatus Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.03.30 08:17:00 - [29] W Space is all about exploration - not settlement - and that means you need to move location. All the tools required to do so exist, its simply a matter of applying those tools. Quote: We could all very easily be making more ISK/hour risk free in high sec space. This is always the issue for any activity in EVE. High Sec is the 'standard' by which any form of static grinding is judged. It's not much fun, but long term its profitable. W Space is better judged as a 'expeditionary' element of game play - A short term activity you can do with your gang in an afternoon rather than a stable ISK printing grind. Fix high sec and the issues surrounding the the 'worth' of .0, Low Sec and W space all disappear. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2009.03.30 08:42:00 - [30] Originally by: Cailais Fix high sec and the issues surrounding the the 'worth' of .0, Low Sec and W space all disappear. QFT - DesuSigs

Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.03.30 08:57:00 - [31] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Cailais Fix high sec and the issues surrounding the the 'worth' of .0, Low Sec and W space all disappear. QFT QFObvioustT
Ja'kar Geb's Call Free Trade Zone.	Posted - 2009.03.30 09:34:00 - [32] High sec is fixed! High sec is for those that what to be safe(ish) and make iss. CCp love me as they bring in cash! Don't expect high sec to get harder anytime soon MAFIA Website
mechtech Entropy Industries	Posted - 2009.03.30 09:38:00 - [33] Originally by: Ja'kar High sec is fixed! High sec is for those that what to be safe(ish) and make iss. CCp love me as they bring in cash! Don't expect high sec to get harder anytime soon High sec shouldn't be harder, it should just be 50% as profitable as it currently is.
Benco97 Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.30 09:44:00 - [34] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Cailais Fix high sec and the issues surrounding the the 'worth' of .0, Low Sec and W space all disappear. QFT I couldn't agree more. Originally by: P'uck You're a DUMBASS - bold italic underline at the VERY LEAST.
Lagn Gita	Posted - 2009.03.30 10:10:00 - [35] i agree, nerf high sec to make other badly implemented features seem better.
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.03.30 12:21:00 - [36] Why are you guys still comparing isk faucets and non-isk faucets in regard to isk pr. hour? ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Cailais Amarr Diablo Advocatus Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.03.30 13:20:00 - [37] Originally by: Jowen Datloran Why are you guys still comparing isk faucets and non-isk faucets in regard to isk pr. hour? Because to the individual player wether he makes ISK from an ISK faucet such as NPC Bounties, or from another player purchasing items hes harvested (non-faucet) makes no significant difference to their overall activity. However it does have an impact upon players in a wider sense. Why sell products you have 'fought' for in .0 / w space to make ISK when you can make ISK out of 'thin air' by killing NPC rats in high sec? Each unit of ISK a player has is unit of effort, where effort equals risk over time. Of course a true comparison is difficult because whilst Empire space 'risk' is essentially a value of 0 and therefore the 'effort' is judged only by the value of 'time' its much harder to judge the value of ISK achieved in Low Sec / .0 / W space because the 'risk' value is very variable (an example being some .0 systems have a risk value of 0 or close to it at given times of the day, but a very high risk value at peak periods). Therefore we have to rely upon circumstantial evidence, anecdotal evidence and player perception to see wether non-high sec activity is worthwhile. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2009.03.30 13:44:00 - [38] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Cailais Fix high sec and the issues surrounding the the 'worth' of .0, Low Sec and W space all disappear. QFT Yeah don't get your hopes up, as long as the EVE market is free it will always be obscenely profitable to those who know how to work it in safety. People who think missions are the most profitable thing in empire are sorely mistaken. ----------- Originally by: CCP Whisper Deal with it.
Obidom Jax	Posted - 2009.03.30 13:44:00 - [39] I dont even know how to find W-Space I am a Sad Panda Maybe some day I will be able to enter W-Space adn lose a shedload of ships, until then i will mine mine and Msn in high sec until i am confident enough to fly a Cov Ops ship and learn how to 'Scan down' W-H
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2009.03.30 13:54:00 - [40] Originally by: Gamer4liff Yeah don't get your hopes up, as long as the EVE market is free it will always be obscenely profitable to those who know how to work it in safety. People who think missions are the most profitable thing in empire are sorely mistaken. The market: - Is not an ISK or Loot Faucet - Forces competition over finite potential profits - Requires more than performing exactly the same actions over and over and thus it, while still the most profitable thing in the game, does not need nerfing. - DesuSigs

Gamer4liff Caldari Metalworks THE INTERSTELLAR FOUNDRY	Posted - 2009.03.30 15:09:00 - [41] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Gamer4liff Yeah don't get your hopes up, as long as the EVE market is free it will always be obscenely profitable to those who know how to work it in safety. People who think missions are the most profitable thing in empire are sorely mistaken. The market: - Is not an ISK or Loot Faucet - Forces competition over finite potential profits - Requires more than performing exactly the same actions over and over and thus it, while still the most profitable thing in the game, does not need nerfing. Well that would be a good argument if that was the main point people were arguing about. It ultimately doesn't matter where the isk comes from in the argument set that people are making right now (the usual risk v reward nonsense). All these people care about is the gross profit of the individual per security of system most played and completely ignore the many examples that make "risk v reward" a complete fabrication. Besides, if people think there is too much isk in the game they should halve rat bounties/mission rewards/insurance/npc buyorders. Fat chance of that happening though. Also: - Is not an ISK or Loot Faucet True, but not really relevant. - Forces competition over finite potential profits True - Requires more than performing exactly the same actions over and over False, if you find a good niche you can stay there for a long time, until somebody discovers it. It requires even more repetition than missions and ratting, especially if you play the .01 isk game. ----------- Originally by: CCP Whisper Deal with it.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2009.03.30 15:17:00 - [42] Originally by: Gamer4liff Well that would be a good argument if that was the main point people were arguing about. It ultimately doesn't matter where the isk comes from in the argument set that people are making right now (the usual risk v reward nonsense). - Is not a faucet/forces competition Can not be infinitely farmed to a guaranteed ISK/hour - the more that try, the less everyone gets. -Requires you to find that niche, which takes more effort than finding a Lv. 4 agent Combined with the above means it will not be a one stop shop for money making like faucet type income is. Basically, the market is not farmable, not in the same sense as missions/ratting/mining/w-space/whatever. Some people just don't get it. Other people get stupidly rich off it. Whereas everyone doing L4's gets basically the same ISK/hr. So, the market is not applicable as a baseline, and does not need to be nerfed or even taken into account. - DesuSigs
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.30 15:19:00 - [43] Originally by: Rivqua They work like plexes in K-Space, you kill them, they respawn in a different system. Your biggest problem is that noone else is clearing Level 5s at the same rate you are, so when they respawn somewhere else, they are not being killed of, so they respawn elswhere again, possibly in your system. I am pretty confident that there is a very constant amount of Class-5 plexes out there (anomalies/radar/mag/grav), but they move around the systems as people finisht them off. So when your cov ops finds you one Class 5 and your fleet start clearing it, he should immidiately start looking for the next system, and hopefully be done finding it by the time you've cleared it. So in conclusion, working as intended, you need to move around, WH systems can be colonized for PoS ops and such, but not for profitability in sleepers, not until alot more peeps are running them, so you get a constant respawn rate based on plexes being killed of outside your system. This seems like a very logical and workable explanation as to how the mechanics are currently working. If this is indeed the case then w-space is another non starter. I'll probably give it a few more weeks to see if anything changes, but it doesn't look like it. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Zarroh	Posted - 2009.03.30 15:29:00 - [44] Good!
5pinDizzy	Posted - 2009.03.30 15:41:00 - [45] I think other people, are annoyed like me because; We know we can run missions in highsec, yes it earns tons of cash but it's boring and it's grind. We can run wormholes and low/nullsec stuff and it's a lot more exciting but you're enjoyment is spoilt by... "Ya know this isn't earning me hardly anything at all, I might aswell just be running missions in highsec for more profit" In my stride I've managed to earn 30 mill an hour running missions in highsec and that's not including all the lp's. I spent two days in a wormhole, almost got killed by someone hunting me, took hours to find a way out, barely missed dying to a pirate camp, docked and checked value of loot to see it come to a market value of about 10 million isk. if you disagree with me then you should probably post a response and stop reading my signature.
Space Wanderer	Posted - 2009.03.30 16:59:00 - [46] Edited by: Space Wanderer on 30/03/2009 17:02:29 Sorry OP, but that's how exploration has always worked. Obviously unexplored areas have plenty of sites to find, while explored areas have much less. It was true for kspace exploration and it is true for wspace exploration. Working as intended, I would say. Still, you can make work the pos nonetheless. Just use it as a base for expedition in other WHs, and in the meanwhile react the new stuff harvested from ladar sites.

CCP Greyscale	Posted - 2009.03.30 17:15:00 - [47] It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed.

Khlitouris RegusII	Posted - 2009.03.30 17:17:00 - [48] Originally by: Polly Prissypantz Originally by: Khlitouris RegusII CCP did say they had improved wormhole npc's ai maybe the npc's have decided it's not economically viable for them to keep respawning in a system camped by pod pilots and they all decided to relocate to a less busy system. So you're saying the rats are smarter than Motsu mission runners? Anything's smarter than a motsu mission runner
Jalum Krayal	Posted - 2009.03.30 17:19:00 - [49] Originally by: CCP Greyscale It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed. I hope you can appreciate how this little detail about respawn rates would've made many of your customers much happier had they known about it.
Faife Federation of Freedom Fighters Aggression.	Posted - 2009.03.30 17:24:00 - [50] Edited by: Faife on 30/03/2009 17:25:06 for pete's sake, they said over and over that that's how it was going to work. meanwhile, a whole lot of borderline illiterates kept posting brilliant threads about "i have this amazing unique ides, i will put (wait for it) A POS IN WORMHOLE SPACE! no one has every though of this. it's insane. we'll be trillionaires" now, whose fault is that? stop playing it safe and start roaming --

Jalum Krayal	Posted - 2009.03.30 17:31:00 - [51] Originally by: Faife Edited by: Faife on 30/03/2009 17:25:06 for pete's sake, they said over and over that that's how it was going to work. meanwhile, a whole lot of borderline illiterates kept posting brilliant threads about "i have this amazing unique ides, i will put (wait for it) A POS IN WORMHOLE SPACE! no one has every though of this. it's insane. we'll be trillionaires" now, whose fault is that? stop playing it safe and start roaming No, wrong. What they said was that logistics to supply your POS in wormspace would be the main problem with settling there (no ice or npc goods). They never said that wormspace relied on the same constellation/region respawn mechanics that known-space exploration does. After all, if it was their design and desire for players not to settle in wormspace, they could've just told us up front. No one would have erected a POS if they could clear the content in 3-12 hours. Everyone wins.
Faife Federation of Freedom Fighters Aggression.	Posted - 2009.03.30 17:34:00 - [52] Originally by: Jalum Krayal No, wrong. What they said was that logistics to supply your POS in wormspace would be the main problem with settling there (no ice or npc goods). They never said that wormspace relied on the same constellation/region respawn mechanics that known-space exploration does. After all, if it was their design and desire for players not to settle in wormspace, they could've just told us up front. No one would have erected a POS if they could clear the content in 3-12 hours. Everyone wins. yeah yeah, that's what people kept saying over and over, and i just sat there laughing still laughing --
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.03.30 17:41:00 - [53] Originally by: CCP Greyscale It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed. For the love of God, why not? Increase space by 50% and say you don't want people to live there? Wat?
Hamatitio Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2009.03.30 17:53:00 - [54] Edited by: Hamatitio on 30/03/2009 17:54:03 ever think you have to let the w-space 'despawn' of sorts. IE not having a pos in it, not logging out in it, letting it sit like that till DT? edit: for terrible Hijack this
Casiella Truza Stillwater Corporation	Posted - 2009.03.30 17:54:00 - [55] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: CCP Greyscale It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed. For the love of God, why not? Increase space by 50% and say you don't want people to live there? Wat? I think you may be misunderstanding the word "exploration". -- IC Twitter
Faife Federation of Freedom Fighters Aggression.	Posted - 2009.03.30 18:11:00 - [56] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: CCP Greyscale It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed. For the love of God, why not? Increase space by 50% and say you don't want people to live there? Wat? i dont see why this is difficult. if you want to print isk, go mine in high sec or run missions. if you want to explore, go to wormhole space guess what, YOU NEED TO MOVE AROUND TO EXPLORE. working as intended, problem between keyboard and chair, etc. --
Maria Kalista Amarr	Posted - 2009.03.30 18:18:00 - [57] Originally by: Casiella Truza Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: CCP Greyscale It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed. For the love of God, why not? Increase space by 50% and say you don't want people to live there? Wat? I think you may be misunderstanding the word "exploration". This^. And to prevent corps to actually try to 'own' a piece of W-space. Since its not worth it over time, people will hopefully move on. What point would it be to increase EVE 0.0 space by 50% and have it gooned/blobbed/bobbed/kenned up within 3-4 months? Now you go in, take what you can get and move on to the next hole in space. Great job and a brilliant design CCP! Originally by: tentonhammer One galaxy, limited resources, 450K players who are all a little odd to begin with and a porous system of currency trading. Welcome to the asylum, let's take a tour!
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2009.03.30 18:20:00 - [58] Edited by: Imperator Jora''h on 30/03/2009 18:20:15 Originally by: Maria Kalista Originally by: Casiella Truza Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: CCP Greyscale It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed. For the love of God, why not? Increase space by 50% and say you don't want people to live there? Wat? I think you may be misunderstanding the word "exploration". This^. And to prevent corps to actually try to 'own' a piece of W-space. Since its not worth it over time, people will hopefully move on. What point would it be to increase EVE 0.0 space by 50% and have it gooned/blobbed/bobbed/kenned up within 3-4 months? Now you go in, take what you can get and move on to the next hole in space. Great job and a brilliant design CCP! ^^ This again. Excellent job CCP! Static things in MMOs are horrible. Spawn camping was shown to be hell over a decade ago yet MMOs still all to often fall into this trap. Had CCP allowed people to setup camp in W-Space it would not have been long before all the good stuff was controlled by a relative few. This is "Exploration". So explore...not camp. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.03.30 18:21:00 - [59] I approve of this design feature. It doesn't make W-space POS useless, of course. Making the occasional big fuel run and being able to do everything else at a POS, mostly devoid of threats is quite a bit better, and you can always scout out other wormholes from the one you're in.
Mari Katarin	Posted - 2009.03.30 18:25:00 - [60] Give it time. Most people capable of doing the ISK/unit time calculation will move on, and sleeper goo will rise in value until w-space is once again worth exploring for a dozen people or so. That takes care of the supply part. Now, the demand side -- Siig should have that covered singlehandedly. A small corp or two should be easily supported by Siig's losses to caldari FW.

Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.30 18:27:00 - [61] Originally by: CCP Greyscale It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed. Thanks for the input Greyscale! This really helps me out with respect to making some decisions about the time cost of developing w-space ventures. Back to k-space it is... Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.03.30 18:31:00 - [62] Originally by: Faife Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: CCP Greyscale It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed. For the love of God, why not? Increase space by 50% and say you don't want people to live there? Wat? i dont see why this is difficult. if you want to print isk, go mine in high sec or run missions. if you want to explore, go to wormhole space guess what, YOU NEED TO MOVE AROUND TO EXPLORE. working as intended, problem between keyboard and chair, etc. Who said anything about printing ISK? I want to live there.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2009.03.30 18:44:00 - [63] Originally by: Malcanis Who said anything about printing ISK? I want to live there. You can live there if you want. Just will be boring. Sounds more like you want to farm it and that, thankfully, CCP has seemingly made a worthless endeavor. -------------------------------------------------- "Of course," said my grandfather, pulling a gun from his belt as he stepped from the Time Machine, "there's no paradox if I shoot you!"
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.30 18:57:00 - [64] Originally by: Faife Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: CCP Greyscale It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed. For the love of God, why not? Increase space by 50% and say you don't want people to live there? Wat? i dont see why this is difficult. if you want to print isk, go mine in high sec or run missions. if you want to explore, go to wormhole space guess what, YOU NEED TO MOVE AROUND TO EXPLORE. working as intended, problem between keyboard and chair, etc. Bolded the important part. Until this gets fixed (i.e. reduced to about 10% of it's current level of productivity) everything else will be relative to that baseline as far as base time cost is concerned. Right now w-space is very high risk and while the rewards are somewhat profitable at the moment, it's quickly becoming not worth the headache of the logistics and complexity vs. it's hourly profitability. It's just not good enough. I love the overall design. The idea that the value of the loot is 100% player driven, that you don't get ISK from the rats. That it requires a team effort for most of it, that it's dynamic with it's wormholes and exploration sites. That there's no local. I love all of it. But it's just not worth the time from an ISK/hour standpoint to occupy space or to even spend a large amount of time in w-space. It's big, it's empty, and not even from a player population standpoint. It's empty of NPC content and resources. It gets very boring very fast. Looks like another non-starter. And here I had such high hopes for something different and exciting to spend some time exploring. After a week I've seen all there is to see and done pretty much everything there is to do with the new content. I'm bored of it already. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Malcanis R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.03.30 18:57:00 - [65] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Malcanis Who said anything about printing ISK? I want to live there. You can live there if you want. Just will be boring. Sounds more like you want to farm it and that, thankfully, CCP has seemingly made a worthless endeavor. I don't want to "farm it". I just want it to be viable to live there without going back to hi-sec every 10 damb minutes.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.03.30 20:11:00 - [66] Originally by: Zeba Possibly why they devs kept hinting that yes you can set up a permanent or at least long term presence in a wormhole system but good luck making it economically viable. Remember there are 2500 systems out there so it looks like nomadic fleets are going to be the norm. Eat up one systems sites then go to the next one till you are all dead or eventually find the way out with cargoholds filled with loot. Originally by: CCP Greyscale It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed. Nailed it first reply but does anyone listen to me? Noooooooo.. Originally by: Achar Losa i might be just a 6 year old stupid boy, but he's a CCP dev writing in the forums!
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.03.30 20:23:00 - [67] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Bolded the important part. Until this gets fixed (i.e. reduced to about 10% of it's current level of productivity) everything else will be relative to that baseline as far as base time cost is concerned. People who seriously care about how much virtual income they can make pr. hour, should stop playing computer games and start putting interest in improving their real world income pr. hour instead. Maybe just play games for fun? ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.03.30 20:32:00 - [68] Well Jowan for alot of people the spreadsheet parts of Eve are the fun. However to address Bellum its been proven that very small groups of skilled players can beat even the moar difficult sleeper spawns so its going to look like an expedition is going to pan out how I originally envisioned it. A small group of combat ships a prober and a max m3 indy to store ammo and loot with eveyone having some form of rr. So loot a systems sites till the good stuff is gone then have the prober find anyother system and have him eject and go throught the wormhole to save mass and see what type of system is on the other side. Rinse and repeat until the indy is getting low on supplies and full of loot then start looking for a way out. Originally by: Achar Losa i might be just a 6 year old stupid boy, but he's a CCP dev writing in the forums!
Taius Pax	Posted - 2009.03.30 20:35:00 - [69] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Faife Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: CCP Greyscale It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed. For the love of God, why not? Increase space by 50% and say you don't want people to live there? Wat? i dont see why this is difficult. if you want to print isk, go mine in high sec or run missions. if you want to explore, go to wormhole space guess what, YOU NEED TO MOVE AROUND TO EXPLORE. working as intended, problem between keyboard and chair, etc. Who said anything about printing ISK? I want to live there. And you can. Not that it's much fun, but you can. I've said for a while setting up a POS in w-space didn't make sense economically given the early Dev statements and the logistical constraints. But again, they're allowing it if that's how you want to blow your isk. W-Space is part of exploration. It's not designed to be easy / profitable to settle. In fact it's designed to be quite the opposite.
Jalum Krayal	Posted - 2009.03.30 20:41:00 - [70] The main problem is that this flies in the face of CCP's stated desire that T3 ships cost in the 200-300mil ISK range. Even if the anomalies/sites respawned every 12 hours, I doubt even a hundred C5 wormspace "colonies" would be enough supply to get prices down to that level. But whatever, it's up to CCP to figure out how to get us to enjoy their new content. We might as well rename Strategic Cruisers to Siigari cruisers until they do.

NeoTech Minmatar	Posted - 2009.03.30 21:05:00 - [71] Originally by: Jowen Datloran Originally by: Bellum Eternus Bolded the important part. Until this gets fixed (i.e. reduced to about 10% of it's current level of productivity) everything else will be relative to that baseline as far as base time cost is concerned. People who seriously care about how much virtual income they can make pr. hour, should stop playing computer games and start putting interest in improving their real world income pr. hour instead. Maybe just play games for fun? What a dumb statement, i'm happy with CCP's design choice and i also think the op is wrong in how Wormholes should be farmable etc. But saying people should stop playing because of the isk/hour ratio is pretty dumb, many of us doesn't like this eternal grind that Eve has to offer, which means that we want to make alot of isk in the shortest amount of time, so we can pvp/have fun. Just saying that your statement is dumb and ignorant, well, bye.
Hyveres Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.30 21:11:00 - [72] Actually if you have a stable gate in a controlled system(read friendly 0.0) I can see exploration of wormholes being a highly profitable venture. Heck thats probably the "best" base for explorations since most random roamers will never scan down gates and go in there meaning your "ratters" can gang up , enter WHspace , clean out and area then enter a new wormhole the next day , or one in a neighboring system once they finish exploring the first one. But in highsec where every lemming and hampster in the vincinity comes barging in , it wont be as profitable and thats how it should be. "Subtlety is a thing for philosophy, not combat. If you're going to kill someone, you might as well kill them a whole lot." - Vulcan Raven, The Last Days Of Foxhound
madess machine The Reaper Corporation	Posted - 2009.03.30 21:42:00 - [73] Originally by: CCP Greyscale It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed. /me looks at this quote twice looks like there might be a lot more to come concerning w-space. Just a thought. Oh, and i think i stole this idea from someone else, but dont you just hate it when you dont realise the bit of text at the bottom of a post is actually the signature?
Induc	Posted - 2009.03.30 21:43:00 - [74] Edited by: Induc on 30/03/2009 21:45:53 Some people argue that wh should be about emptying a wh and then move on to the next. Let's assume that me and a friend gets out with an orca to mine some gas. We bring a small pos so that the orca guy can swap ship to a gas harvesting fitted ship. The orca would have roughly 100,000 m3 cargo designated for fullerite. Let's assume we are both max skilled with 5 T2 harvesters netting in a total of 5 m3 gas per sec (10 harvesters * 20 m3 / 40 sec duration). At that pace it will take 5.5 hours to fill the orca. Let's say you manage to always find C50, one of the better fullerites worth around 20,000 isk per m3 atm. A full orca load of C50 would sell for 2 billion isk. That is 2000 / 5.5 = 364M per hour / 2 = 181M per hour per person. Sounds like a lot? Then consider this: You would have to switch ladar site every 30 minutes (5000*2 gas per ladar site) If we assume each wh has 3 ladar sites you would have to switch wh system 4 times. You then would have to anchor, online and unachor the POS 4 times. That alone takes 5 hours. Then you're already down to 90M isk per hour per person without even considering the time it will take to find the ladar sites and new wh's. Most of the time wh systems don't even have wh's connecting to other w-systems which means you would have to go back to k-space and find a new wh from there. And remember this is still assuming that you're not stuck with one of the 5 fullerites currently worth less than 10,000 isk per m3 which would more than half your profit. Haven't you forgot something? You still haven't taken the RISK into account which is supposed to be the most important factor... TLDR: I don't know what there is to come but atm fullerite harvesting for profit without settling down in a w-space is just not worth it.
Zeba Minmatar Honourable East India Trading Company	Posted - 2009.03.30 21:52:00 - [75] Edited by: Zeba on 30/03/2009 21:53:44 Originally by: Induc TLDR: I don't know what there is to come but atm fullerite harvesting for profit without settling down in a w-space is just not worth it. Did you factor in all the isk to be made from all the other sites? You need to treat an expedition to exploit a wormhole as an olde world trading expedition much like my corps namesake used to undertake. You had a few armed galleys manned by brave hearty souls that are filled to the brim with all manner of tradegoods and supplies that went forth into the unknown to make thier fortune never returning until the ships were full of valuable and exotic goods. Or mayhap never returning at all. Originally by: Achar Losa i might be just a 6 year old stupid boy, but he's a CCP dev writing in the forums!
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.03.30 21:54:00 - [76] Quote: Bolded the important part. Until this gets fixed (i.e. reduced to about 10% of it's current level of productivity) everything else will be relative to that baseline as far as base time cost is concerned. Right now w-space is very high risk and while the rewards are somewhat profitable at the moment, it's quickly becoming not worth the headache of the logistics and complexity vs. it's hourly profitability. It's just not good enough. I love the overall design. The idea that the value of the loot is 100% player driven, that you don't get ISK from the rats. That it requires a team effort for most of it, that it's dynamic with it's wormholes and exploration sites. That there's no local. I love all of it. But it's just not worth the time from an ISK/hour standpoint to occupy space or to even spend a large amount of time in w-space. It's big, it's empty, and not even from a player population standpoint. It's empty of NPC content and resources. Then why the flaming **** are you whining about w-space? If the problem is that hisec is too profitable, then whine about hisec.
Cailais Amarr Diablo Advocatus Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.03.30 22:03:00 - [77] Originally by: Bellum Eternus It gets very boring very fast. Looks like another non-starter. And here I had such high hopes for something different and exciting to spend some time exploring. After a week I've seen all there is to see and done pretty much everything there is to do with the new content. I'm bored of it already. You're bored and have 'exhausted' it because youre looking at it from an outdated perspective. The 'old' way of thinking is you jump into a system, and claim it, live there, never really move. Welcome to the 'new' way of thinking. You enter a W space system, you raze it to the ground, but thats just the start of your endeavour - where does it lead? It might be a new W System, but it could just as easily lead to a .0 system: and thats where you go. Here the reward is more about the journey, and the adventures you have along the way - rather than just printing ISK. In my view we need more 'non-isk' rewards within the game such as this, where the activity itself is enjoyable, interesting and diverse even if it doesnt supply you with the ISK to faction fit 20 Battleships. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.30 22:24:00 - [78] It seems to me that quite a lot of posters in this thread have the attitude of "HAHA, YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO FARM W-SPACE HAHA" and are gloating over the realization that setting up a sustainable infrastructure in a w-space system isn't viable. What I'm working towards: I want to see T3 succeed. I want to see it be common and worth using in PVP. In order to have this happen there needs to be a very well developed production structure, so in order to really find how viable it's going to be to produce the ships, there's no other way to really know how this is going to work without hard won first hand experience. This is what I'm doing, so that when I call bullsh#t on people telling me that everything is fine and that ships will be plenty cheap once 'everyone starts going to w-space' I'll have some hard numbers to back my position. And now I do. I'm trying to develop a sustainable template that can be documented and advertised to other players so that they too can extend parallel production efforts to maximize material volume and reduce T3 cost. And make some ISK along the way. If T3 continues to be too expensive to use and the materials continue to be very time consuming to procure and inconsistent to locate it'll eventually end up in the same pile as COSMOS items and BlackOps, EAS frigs etc. So you assclowns who are so overjoyed that things aren't working out for the few who are trying to make a sustainable presence in w-space should maybe reconsider your position if you ever have any interest in flying a less expensive T3 ship. Right now T3 isn't worth the time and effort, from every direction, and it sucks. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Dire Radiant	Posted - 2009.03.30 22:36:00 - [79] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Right now T3 isn't worth the time and effort, from *every* direction, and it sucks. reword that to say "from the direction that I have tried".
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.30 22:38:00 - [80] Originally by: Cailais Originally by: Bellum Eternus It gets very boring very fast. Looks like another non-starter. And here I had such high hopes for something different and exciting to spend some time exploring. After a week I've seen all there is to see and done pretty much everything there is to do with the new content. I'm bored of it already. You're bored and have 'exhausted' it because youre looking at it from an outdated perspective. The 'old' way of thinking is you jump into a system, and claim it, live there, never really move. Welcome to the 'new' way of thinking. You enter a W space system, you raze it to the ground, but thats just the start of your endeavour - where does it lead? It might be a new W System, but it could just as easily lead to a .0 system: and thats where you go. Here the reward is more about the journey, and the adventures you have along the way - rather than just printing ISK. In my view we need more 'non-isk' rewards within the game such as this, where the activity itself is enjoyable, interesting and diverse even if it doesnt supply you with the ISK to faction fit 20 Battleships. C. Totally wrong. There is no 'reward' in the adventure and the journey after the first few hours/days/weeks. Notice the lack of 'OMG, I'm trapped in w-space!' threads. It's not a big deal anymore. That lasted all of two weeks. I can't stand NPCing. New Sleeper AI or no, it's still the same old thing. Now they switch targets more than once. Big whoop. The AI is still extremely simple and I have no expectations of it being more than it is. I don't care that it's simple. It's fine. But we don't fit PVP ships to fight them, we just fit a slightly modified PVE fit. There is no 'new way of thinking'. It's the same-old same-old. People, and very few at that so far, will venture into w-space on a regular basis for only one basic reason: ISK. Notice I said regular basis. Once the new wears off, they just don't care and will go back to their existing activities. So no, the perspective isn't 'outdated'. The thinking remains the same. The template that CCP has put forth, as far as content is concerned, is THE SAME. The only real (good) differences are the dynamic nature of the wormholes and the lack of local, which is awesome. Everything else is just more of the same. In my view w-space is a good start. Now we need to put local in delayed mode for all of lowsec and all of 0.0. If you're really interested in a 'new way of thinking' then let's really be new- sack up and remove local from everything except high sec. Frankly I don't see all the wanna be PVP carebears in 0.0 getting on board with that. All of the NC, Goons etc. would absolutely implode if that were suggested because it would mess with their ISK. So yeah, you're exactly wrong. Again. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting

Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.30 22:39:00 - [81] Originally by: Dire Radiant Originally by: Bellum Eternus Right now T3 isn't worth the time and effort, from *every* direction, and it sucks. reword that to say "from the direction that I have tried". You're misunderstanding the statement. I'm sorry if you're unable to comprehend it. I won't explain it to you. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Dire Radiant	Posted - 2009.03.30 22:43:00 - [82] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Dire Radiant Originally by: Bellum Eternus Right now T3 isn't worth the time and effort, from *every* direction, and it sucks. reword that to say "from the direction that I have tried". You're misunderstanding the statement. I'm sorry if you're unable to comprehend it. I won't explain it to you. Tis ok. You wouldnt be able to explain your opinion because you have a limited experience in regards to T3.
Benco97 Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.30 22:57:00 - [83] I'm not living permanently in one Wspace system, I flit from one to another but I have to say that today was not a lot of fun. Three wormholes and I SWEAR the only things in them were Grav sites. Originally by: P'uck You're a DUMBASS - bold italic underline at the VERY LEAST.
Havegun Willtravel	Posted - 2009.03.30 23:04:00 - [84] "It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed." Greyscale WTF !!! ? I read every dev blog and you never said you didn't want people to settle in w-space. If you didn't want us there you shouldn't have made it possible to anchor a pos FFS ! ATM this thread has been hijacked by the same old BS about isk per hour, risk vs reward blah blah. The op very validy remarked that he and a group entered a worm hole and completed all the sites available in a short period of time. Then NOTHING. In 0.0 I can belt rat all day long, in empire i can mission or mine all day long. I get value for my monthly sub. In w-space it appears that i can't. From what I'm seeing when my group completes a site it respawns somewhere else and we have to wait for someone else to do the same and only then if we get lucky will it appear in our wh. If it doesn't then we have nothing to do. I'm not interested in engaging in the pathetic perpetual whine of isk per hour. I pay RL cash for fun per hour. So why if i choose to have fun in w-space am I finding out that it is not possible unless i roam from one wh to another. Why did you make the sleepers so hard that you needed a gang to engage them but then not have enough content to keep the group active for more than an afternoon ? ATM this is the exact same problem our group is having. Nothing but grav sites which very rarely if even spawn 4 or 5 sleeper frigs and nothing else. Sorry Greyscale but if this was your intention you should have been ALOT clearer in the dev blogs and clearly said there will not be repetitive regenerating content in w-space. At this time we envision it as a roaming gang environment will future expansion potential. isk per hour - go wine in c'n p. fun per our = Fail if you're in w-space.
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.03.30 23:05:00 - [85] Quote: I want to see T3 succeed. I want to see it be common and worth using in PVP. In order to have this happen there needs to be a very well developed production structure, so in order to really find how viable it's going to be to produce the ships, there's no other way to really know how this is going to work without hard won first hand experience. This is what I'm doing, so that when I call bullsh#t on people telling me that everything is fine and that ships will be plenty cheap once 'everyone starts going to w-space' I'll have some hard numbers to back my position. And now I do. And you don't think that if fewer people were farming riskless ezmode missions (Although to be fair, 0.0 ratting in alliance space is no better), there would be more people exploiting w-space for resources?
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.30 23:13:00 - [86] Originally by: Kahega Amielden Quote: I want to see T3 succeed. I want to see it be common and worth using in PVP. In order to have this happen there needs to be a very well developed production structure, so in order to really find how viable it's going to be to produce the ships, there's no other way to really know how this is going to work without hard won first hand experience. This is what I'm doing, so that when I call bullsh#t on people telling me that everything is fine and that ships will be plenty cheap once 'everyone starts going to w-space' I'll have some hard numbers to back my position. And now I do. And you don't think that if fewer people were farming riskless ezmode missions (Although to be fair, 0.0 ratting in alliance space is no better), there would be more people exploiting w-space for resources? Um, what? I do think that if fewer people were able to farm missions in highsec then the game would be better off, in all areas. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Kahega Amielden Minmatar Suddenly Ninjas	Posted - 2009.03.30 23:15:00 - [87] My point is that fixing hisec missions would accomplish the task you're pushing for. Sitting here complaining about w-space respawns is useless.
Turiel Demon Minmatar Shadow Reapers DAMAGE INC...	Posted - 2009.03.30 23:15:00 - [88] Well it seems, according to this: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1038042 that W-space is farmable... but you've got to work at it in a different way: Step one: find a system which consistently spawns a WH to class 5/6 W-space Step two: set up base Step three: farm the neighboring system which changes ever day, or if farmed quickly enough, collapse the WH manually by overloading its mass There is the risk of group separation, but as WH mass limits are fairly well known at this point, someone just needs to keep track of that and individuals need to watch for destabilization. I don't know how hard it will be to complete step 1, but so far we've had a tier 5 that always spawns a WH to a tier 3, and a tier 4 (ours) that always spawns a WH to a tier 1/2... maybe tier 6 spawn to tier 4 and 5? This bears experimenting.
Nightmare I Shadow Reapers DAMAGE INC...	Posted - 2009.03.30 23:25:00 - [89] Wormholes are predictable, this is totally against the design idea. Im not sure if i should laugh or whine
CataH's Slave	Posted - 2009.03.30 23:34:00 - [90] you said you are in a class 5 WH ... can you share your set up?

Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.30 23:43:00 - [91] Originally by: Turiel Demon Well it seems, according to this: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1038042 that W-space is farmable... but you've got to work at it in a different way: Step one: find a system which consistently spawns a WH to class 5/6 W-space Step two: set up base Step three: farm the neighboring system which changes ever day, or if farmed quickly enough, collapse the WH manually by overloading its mass There is the risk of group separation, but as WH mass limits are fairly well known at this point, someone just needs to keep track of that and individuals need to watch for destabilization. I don't know how hard it will be to complete step 1, but so far we've had a tier 5 that always spawns a WH to a tier 3, and a tier 4 (ours) that always spawns a WH to a tier 1/2... maybe tier 6 spawn to tier 4 and 5? This bears experimenting. Our group has already fully developed and exploited the above approach, and it doesn't work on a long term basis. We routinely 'go next door' to the various wormhole systems that connect to our 'home' system, but again, when you factor in the time that it takes to find the new wormhole, survey the next system, run it dry of resources and then return, the total utilization of personnel is around 2-5%, which is really poor. Our wormholes that connect to neighboring w-space systems are very few and far between, even when they are collapsed on purpose. We usually get one about every 24-48 hours. I've been refining my approach to w-space resource exploitation, trying to pair down the size and number of ships in order to make the force more mobile and fit through smaller and smaller wormholes while still being able to get the job done. We easily generate 4-5 billion ISK in one go when we find something to do, but the downtime between sessions like that is too long, so the average ISK ends up being below L4 empire mission rates. The added issue of everyone having to be online at once and not being able to simply go afk or be left behind and still have a way home is a major hassle. I'm not saying that this part should be removed, I'm just pointing it out that w-space isn't 'casual' gameplay by a long shot. Not if you want to get home alive. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.30 23:44:00 - [92] Originally by: CataH's Slave you said you are in a class 5 WH ... can you share your set up? For what specifically? Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Rawthorm Gallente The Establishment Establishment	Posted - 2009.03.31 00:41:00 - [93] Originally by: CCP Greyscale It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed. That reminds me, I have a bone to pick. I recall the following line in one of the dev blogs: "While it is theoretically possible to move a control tower into wormhole space, set it up and maintain it, the logistical challenge and risks of fueling and defending a tower in a system with no permanent links to known space would be considerable. But then again the potential rewards are equally great." So remind us, where are these rewards? I don't think we were expecting something epic but considering you guys mentioned some benefit should we crack the logistical challenge, I don't think a decent spawn rate of sites would have been much to ask for (And for the love of all that is Jovian, please please get rid of most of the grav sites. Why do we need 10 gravs to every 1 other type...)
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.31 01:32:00 - [94] Quote: "While it is theoretically possible to move a control tower into wormhole space, set it up and maintain it, the logistical challenge and risks of fueling and defending a tower in a system with no permanent links to known space would be considerable. But then again the potential rewards are equally great." LOL. Yeah, right. The logistical challenges are pretty darn easy, and once you get a POS set up, it's almost impossible to kill it. It's easy to set up a large POS with months worth of fuel. And it's easy to get people in and out of the system. The only thing lacking is the 'great rewards' part. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.03.31 03:41:00 - [95] Well, not everybody is looking for millions of isk per hour or comparing their experience to "I'd rather gouge my eyes out with a fork" missions. I've pulled half a billion ISK out of my crappy little "unknown space" wormhole system, which is as much I made in the last six months or so in desultory trading, and I'm plenty happy with the amount of content -- just about sufficient for one person playing a few hours a day -- that spawns there. I wouldn't be able to enjoy that content anywhere near as easily without the POS I'm using, so I'd say the "rewards" for keeping it maintained are way more than sufficient. The logistical difficulties, so close to high sec, are trivial to none. I don't have any problem with the spawn rates -- even if some day all I have is grav sites. I just harvest the Sleeper guards and then go do something else. Bellum has a T3 axe to grind, which is why he's so bitterly disappointed. He's also obviously not reading the forums thoroughly, as there are still lots of "lost in the wormhole" threads and a ton of people enjoying EVE more than they have in years. W-space, with or without POSs and mega Sleeper-farming, is clearly a game design win. T3? Jury is still out on that; and I admit, it's not an obvious winner so far. I just hope that they don't bork w-space in an effort to force down T3 prices prematurely. Oddly enough, speaking as a mostly high-sec person, I'm finding that the lack of choke points, lack of local, and difficulty of moving huge gangs are combining to make w-space far friendlier than I ever expected, with the chance for conflict and fun fights without the certainty of being tracked and stomped by huge unmatchable blobs. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Nisstyree Chimera Raiders	Posted - 2009.03.31 05:10:00 - [96] Originally by: Marlenus Well, not everybody is looking for millions of isk per hour or comparing their experience to "I'd rather gouge my eyes out with a fork" missions. I've pulled half a billion ISK out of my crappy little "unknown space" wormhole system, which is as much I made in the last six months or so in desultory trading, and I'm plenty happy with the amount of content -- just about sufficient for one person playing a few hours a day -- that spawns there. I wouldn't be able to enjoy that content anywhere near as easily without the POS I'm using, so I'd say the "rewards" for keeping it maintained are way more than sufficient. The logistical difficulties, so close to high sec, are trivial to none. The fact that you suck at making ISK has nothing to do with what bellum is saying. What bellum is saying is that T3 ships diffusion and industry are critically linked with the ability to produce them. In other words, if the ships where to perform to such a degree that would justify the prices we're currently seing then it would be a non-issue. The fact is that these cruisers are totally not worth 4 billion and not even half that price. Due to the fact that there is no way to have a large and constant supply of the materials needed for their production this will result in prices levitating around the current levels. In return if the prices outweight the actual ship's performance and tactical value then vast majority of people will not be inclined to buy them. I'll let you guess by yourself what would happen to T3 and this whole awsome expansion if ppl won't be interested in actually flying the T3 cruisers.... yep you guessed it, this whole T3 hype and wormholes would have no reason for existing and would ultimately end up like cosmos missions and items did. I would hate to see this happen... The whole concept of T3 and wormholes is an awsome idea that just needs some fine-tuning in order for it to work in the long run. The wormholes are so closely linked with the T3 ships that if one of the two fail then both of them have no reason to exist. All that is being asked is to apply small corrections in order to make it viable for production which in return will augment competition thus collapsing the prices aswell as making the T3 cruisers available for a greater percentage of players leading them to actually be used in PVP.
CataH's Slave	Posted - 2009.03.31 05:43:00 - [97] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: CataH's Slave you said you are in a class 5 WH ... can you share your set up? For what specifically? i mean how many ships and what kind?
Megan Maynard Minmatar Out of Order Tenth Legion	Posted - 2009.03.31 06:00:00 - [98] Originally by: CCP Greyscale It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed. LAME. Stop, hammer time.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.31 06:30:00 - [99] Originally by: CataH's Slave Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: CataH's Slave you said you are in a class 5 WH ... can you share your set up? For what specifically? i mean how many ships and what kind? Typically you can run any site up to and including Tier 5 w-space exploration sites with 4-5 Dominix with RR and cap transfer. Nothing else is needed/required. If you're in a w-space system that is particularly bad with penalties to armor tanking and stuff then you may need a few more, but these are rare and the exception rather than the rule. More ships are fine, but not required. If you need more ships than that, you're doing it wrong. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.03.31 06:57:00 - [100] Originally by: Nisstyree The fact that you suck at making ISK has nothing to do with what bellum is saying. What bellum is saying is that T3 ships diffusion and industry are critically linked with the ability to produce them. {four more paragraphs about T3 snipped} Either your reading comprehension level is very low, or you're deliberately misconstruing what I wrote. First of all, not everybody in this game is all about the making of ISK. It's not that I suck at it, it's that I can do what I do without very much, so I don't do things I hate in order to get it. In fact I'm still rolling on a couple of billion I made more than a year ago speculating in Armor Plates. I've still got 40k of those in my hangar against a rainy day, too. Second, we're all clear on what Bellum is saying, he's only said it about four thousand times so far. I'm not even arguing with him; he's very possibly not wrong. It's just that he (and you) seem to think T3 production is the only reason for w-space to exist, and that's just silly. I'm trying to point out that respawn rates in w-space are fine for a great many purposes and a great many people, and that lots of people are having a blast in w-space even if T3 production turns out to be totally broken. I think it will be at least a year until we find out whether Bellum is right or not about T3 uptake. At this point, I'm not sure that CCP is very concerned about it; they aren't even making a firm commitment to releasing the fifth set of subsystems, so I don't gather they are in any hurry. ------------------ Ironfleet.com

Jennz	Posted - 2009.03.31 07:02:00 - [101] Originally by: Bellum Eternus [We easily generate 4-5 billion ISK in one go when we find something to do, but the downtime between sessions like that is too long, so the average ISK ends up being below L4 empire mission rates. Err what? You talk about making 4-5 billion ISK in one go like it's nothing, then moan about high-sec profits? I consider myself pretty much on the bleeding edge in mission completion times and I'm certainly not making 4-5 billions a week. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I'm fairly certain I can't kill stuff faster than I am currently. It seems like it's your perspective of profitability is skewed rather than the system itself. Here's a dirty little secret: with the exception of those very few individuals who have found a niche, those legion of CNRs running missions in Motsu etc aren't making 4-5 billion per week, and if you're making anything like that kind of ISK in WHs then you've got nothing to whine about at all.
Rakshasa Taisab Caldari Sane Industries Inc. United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2009.03.31 07:17:00 - [102] Originally by: Jennz Err what? You talk about making 4-5 billion ISK in one go like it's nothing, then moan about high-sec profits? I consider myself pretty much on the bleeding edge in mission completion times and I'm certainly not making 4-5 billions a week. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I'm fairly certain I can't kill stuff faster than I am currently. I'd say that's divided on 8-10 or so people, not one person.
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.03.31 07:19:00 - [103] Originally by: Jennz Originally by: Bellum Eternus [We easily generate 4-5 billion ISK in one go when we find something to do, but the downtime between sessions like that is too long, so the average ISK ends up being below L4 empire mission rates. Err what? You talk about making 4-5 billion ISK in one go like it's nothing, then moan about high-sec profits? I consider myself pretty much on the bleeding edge in mission completion times and I'm certainly not making 4-5 billions a week. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I'm fairly certain I can't kill stuff faster than I am currently. It seems like it's your perspective of profitability is skewed rather than the system itself. Here's a dirty little secret: with the exception of those very few individuals who have found a niche, those legion of CNRs running missions in Motsu etc aren't making 4-5 billion per week, and if you're making anything like that kind of ISK in WHs then you've got nothing to whine about at all. You're doing it wrong. A single one of us can crank out 200M+ per day easily running L4s in high sec or ratting in 0.0 with zero risk. 200M ISK x 5 days = 1 bil ISK per week, no sweat. Now, if there are 5-6 guys in our group, we need at least 5-6bil ISK per week in order to break even in w-space and not lose ISK simply because we're in w-space and not doing something else in empire/0.0 etc. Now, do I personally run L4 missions? No. I'd rather pirate. But I still make over a bil a week in ransoms quite easily. So for me, not being in lowsec to attack carriers and Marauders and so on for ransom opportunities cuts into my ISK/week. Plus it's fun. Ratting in w-space isn't that fun. So no, my perspective isn't skewed. It's just that most players aren't thinking on a large enough scale or just simply aren't that high performance enough to appreciate the maximum extrapolation of the game design limitations. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
Nisstyree Chimera Raiders	Posted - 2009.03.31 07:24:00 - [104] Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Originally by: Jennz Err what? You talk about making 4-5 billion ISK in one go like it's nothing, then moan about high-sec profits? I consider myself pretty much on the bleeding edge in mission completion times and I'm certainly not making 4-5 billions a week. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I'm fairly certain I can't kill stuff faster than I am currently. I'd say that's divided on 8-10 or so people, not one person. This, minus the equipment bought for the task...
Hakuriu Minmatar Divide by Zero Blue Sun Trust	Posted - 2009.03.31 07:49:00 - [105] The one thing I have to say to the risk vs reward naysayers is this: if you've ever needed to maintain a low sec POS due to faction standings or certain industrial activities, and then watched that tower fall to a dozen carriers and dreads, then you might understand that there are reasons for putting POSes in W-Space that actually reduce risk. Think outside of the box. If you've ever been forced to halt all industrial activities in order to stave off wave after wave of highsec griefer wardecs, well then you might also see some value in having a w-space haven where mining and industry can continue in some capacity. If they can't find you, they can't shoot at you. While some may see W-Space life as boring because you can't run mission after mission until your brain is mush, the truth may just be that the colonists will be the most consistent harvesters of resources that only come from w-space. There's obvious value to harvesting those materials, and the wide-scale benefit is that there is more supply to meet the demand, which is the only thing that will reduce the cost of T3 ships. And if you have to wait 3 days to do it again, there are plenty of other things for the industrious mind to focus on. Worse case, make your way back to k-space for a few days, run the same missions you've ran 1000 times, and then wait for a corpie to scan out a k-space entry and go back home for another day of w-space life. The fact that doctors make craploads of money doesn't keep teachers from teaching... some folks just WANT to do this. My hope is that CCP sees the return on investment for this release via the many new and returning users that have been drawn in to experience wormhole exploration and will continue to expand the related game mechanics so that those of us who desperately want to do this (and nothing else) will continue to hang around.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2009.03.31 07:57:00 - [106] Originally by: NeoTech Originally by: Jowen Datloran People who seriously care about how much virtual income they can make pr. hour, should stop playing computer games and start putting interest in improving their real world income pr. hour instead. Maybe just play games for fun? What a dumb statement, i'm happy with CCP's design choice and i also think the op is wrong in how Wormholes should be farmable etc. But saying people should stop playing because of the isk/hour ratio is pretty dumb, many of us doesn't like this eternal grind that Eve has to offer, which means that we want to make alot of isk in the shortest amount of time, so we can pvp/have fun. Just saying that your statement is dumb and ignorant, well, bye. No, he is saying: "get RL money and sell GTC to get the isk"
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.03.31 08:07:00 - [107] Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: NeoTech Originally by: Jowen Datloran People who seriously care about how much virtual income they can make pr. hour, should stop playing computer games and start putting interest in improving their real world income pr. hour instead. Maybe just play games for fun? What a dumb statement, i'm happy with CCP's design choice and i also think the op is wrong in how Wormholes should be farmable etc. But saying people should stop playing because of the isk/hour ratio is pretty dumb, many of us doesn't like this eternal grind that Eve has to offer, which means that we want to make alot of isk in the shortest amount of time, so we can pvp/have fun. Just saying that your statement is dumb and ignorant, well, bye. No, he is saying: "get RL money and sell GTC to get the isk" Actually I am saying that if you worry about making enough virtual isk Goonswarm has a open position for you, to teach you about the seriousness of internet spaceship games. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Jennz	Posted - 2009.03.31 08:11:00 - [108] Edited by: Jennz on 31/03/2009 08:10:46 Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab Originally by: Jennz Err what? You talk about making 4-5 billion ISK in one go like it's nothing, then moan about high-sec profits? I consider myself pretty much on the bleeding edge in mission completion times and I'm certainly not making 4-5 billions a week. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I'm fairly certain I can't kill stuff faster than I am currently. I'd say that's divided on 8-10 or so people, not one person. Good point, I forgot about that. My bad Bellum.
Durzel The Xenodus Initiative.	Posted - 2009.03.31 08:21:00 - [109] Originally by: Hakuriu The one thing I have to say to the risk vs reward naysayers is this: if you've ever needed to maintain a low sec POS due to faction standings or certain industrial activities, and then watched that tower fall to a dozen carriers and dreads, then you might understand that there are reasons for putting POSes in W-Space that actually reduce risk. Think outside of the box. You don't really have to think outside the box too much on that front. It's patently obvious that it's much easier to have a POS in WH space than low-sec. Your enemies can't attack it without significant amounts of piecemeal effort (i.e. getting a large enough fleet in, unnoticed, over a period of potentially several days), plus you can reliably collapse the entrances to "your" system that you don't want available, at any given time. I guess this, and other reasons, are why CCP decided it was game-breaking to have people locking down WH systems for their own devices.
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.03.31 08:36:00 - [110] Originally by: Bellum Eternus So no, my perspective isn't skewed. It's just that most players aren't thinking on a large enough scale or just simply aren't that high performance enough to appreciate the maximum extrapolation of the game design limitations. Yeah, your perspective is skewed. That large-scale high-performance min-maxing isn't the only way to attack this game. It may be your preferred approach, but that doesn't mean every new feature has to offer more isk/hour than min-maxed missioning or ratting in order to be a success. It's very possible -- I'm not saying it will happen, just saying it could happen -- that lots of people will go to w-space, and in the end produce enough resources to support a flourishing T3 industry, even if the profit from it all never reaches even a tenth of what you could make missioning or ratting as a min-maxed oldster. Not everybody is a profit maximizer. Lots of people hate mission running no matter how much it pays. ISK is nice stuff, but it's not the only stuff. ------------------ Ironfleet.com

Turiel Demon Minmatar Shadow Reapers DAMAGE INC...	Posted - 2009.03.31 08:41:00 - [111] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Our wormholes that connect to neighboring w-space systems are very few and far between, even when they are collapsed on purpose. We usually get one about every 24-48 hours. Hold on I'm losing you here; so far in my experience as soon as a WH collapses, its replacement spawns instantly, there shouldn't be a question of any more waiting period other than just plain finding the new one. A w-space system always (according to a vaguely-remembered dev response) has an exit right? Depending on how busy the system is with signals finding it should usually take no more than an hour on a bad day. Then fully cataloging the new next-door system with 2 probers takes somewhere between 1 and 3 hours, for say a 15 sig system, while each interesting thing you find can of course be exploited during that time too.
Cailais Amarr Diablo Advocatus Vanguard.	Posted - 2009.03.31 09:02:00 - [112] Originally by: Cailais Here the reward is more about the journey, and the adventures you have along the way - rather than just printing ISK. Originally by: Bellum Eternus Totally wrong. There is no 'reward' in the adventure and the journey after the first few hours/days/weeks. You see no reward, perhaps its not a game system that motivates you? Others do - theres an extensive post by Nyphur and Pillowsoft who've clearly had a very interesting time in w-space. Increasingly I've noticed that CCP are developing content for EVE that players can 'dip into' for short periods, not to run to the exclusion of everything else. W Holes, Faction Warfare and Epic Mission Arcs are all good examples of this. That's a move away from the typical boundry of doing one content element to the exclusion of all others. I think your expectation of T3 becoming readily available within weeks is misplaced. In reality I dont see T3 being 'common place' for at least 6 months, quite possibly a year. That's not to say you wont be able to acquire T3, theyll just be at extreme prices for some considerable time. The reason for this is that the limited number of production players and corps are still in the process of adjusting their manufacturing lines (remember they still need to produce T2 ship/modules over that transition) and are assessing the risks of doing so. Producers need to invest 'up front' to mass produce ships, but they wont do so until clear FOTM favourites appear, and that wont happen until T3 becomes common place. Its a catch 22 situation but it will ease gradually. C. Originally by: Capa So if you wake up one morning and it's a particularly beautiful day, you'll know we made it.
Ricdic Caldari	Posted - 2009.03.31 09:10:00 - [113] Classic case of supply vs demand. Demand far exceeds supply hence why prices are at an excessive level. Now there isn't even a large amount of demand, it's just that supply is incredibly low. What's worse, with the change to probing (deep space probe nerf) many have lost interest in wormholes due to the increased difficulty. I personally don't mind the change as I think it's important to make exploration difficult however it will have an affect on the supply. Also now that the initial excitement on wormholes has worn off more and more people will stop doing it. I have been living in a wormhole now for about 10 days. It's actually just me and two friends and we run 2 POS's in the wormhole (1 med, 1 large). POS's are quite easy to maintain and handle and I agree with people here in that there are so few ladar/magnet/radar sites. In my case it isn't a big issue as I only get a few hours a day to play Eve so I can almost always find a radar or magnet site that has respawned, but for a corporation or small group (5-10) it would get boring incredibly quickly. A few changes to wormhole details I think need to be seriously considered: 1) A way to filter out previously scanned sites. We know the map retains this knowledge as it shows a marker. So allow it to filter previously scanned sites. This really puts exploration the way one would expect CCP wanted it to be. Explorer territories, map out the area. 2) Boosted respawn rate or higher seeding of ladar/magnet/radar sites In 1.5 weeks living in one system in WH space I have seen: 40+ Grav Sites 7 Ladar Sites 2 Magnetometric Sites 0 Radar Sites Myself and my 2 friends are the only ones who have been in the system on most occurances so we basically know our numbers are fairly correct. Should give a rough indication on how things are. Can CCP comment on this or maybe put up a dev blog on their first impressions of WH space, how it's been implemented, t3 cruisers and their plans, if they factor the market cost of a t3 battleship at the cost of a mothership (if you calculate to scale, a battleship is approximatelty 15-25x cheaper than a cruiser, so a T3 cruiser selling at 2b could indicate the battleship being 20-30b???) etc I love that CCP has released this expansion but I hate how after big expansions it's like a shut door without CCP response for a few months. Let's get some discussion happening CCP, let's hear your impressions, are things meeting the standards etc etc. Talk to your customers, we are foaming at the mouth to hear what you have to say.
Turiel Demon Minmatar Shadow Reapers DAMAGE INC...	Posted - 2009.03.31 09:21:00 - [114] Originally by: Ricdic Classic case of supply vs demand. In my case it isn't a big issue as I only get a few hours a day to play Eve so I can almost always find a radar or magnet site that has respawned, but for a corporation or small group (5-10) it would get boring incredibly quickly. ... In 1.5 weeks living in one system in WH space I have seen: 40+ Grav Sites 7 Ladar Sites 2 Magnetometric Sites 0 Radar Sites The above statements appear contradictory: only 2 mag and 0 radar in 10 days, but you found a radar or mag almost every time you logged in? Originally by: Ricdic A few changes to wormhole details I think need to be seriously considered: 1) A way to filter out previously scanned sites. We know the map retains this knowledge as it shows a marker. So allow it to filter previously scanned sites. This really puts exploration the way one would expect CCP wanted it to be. Explorer territories, map out the area. 2) Boosted respawn rate or higher seeding of ladar/magnet/radar sites Thinking of ways to boost exploration, how about an option to 'export' your list of scanned signatures, which can be handed to your corpmates or whoever... even sold? This would lessen the bookmark load on the server a little I'd expect, and also allow the trade in exploration sites with a little more ease than it has at the moment, but this is a tangent, so back to the point at hand... More ladar/mag/radar please!
The Snowman Gallente Wurmz.	Posted - 2009.03.31 10:05:00 - [115] As a director of a similar corp to you, Bellum, I sympathize! However, what seems to have taken you a long time to figure out took us all of a few days to realize:- We took the dive pretty quick into a lower level system then yours, however the advantage for us was that everyday (almost like clockwork) we get a high-sec wormhole and a dangerous lvl 4 wormhole. It wasn't long before members returned to high-sec to mission run / pvp or whatever. We kinda saw the pointlessness of it straight away. This is not to say it hasn't been fun, it has! and fortunately the cost isn't really a problem, we just need to make sure we always have a character parked there to return at any point. Apart from the occasional and dubious pleasures of popping noobs I agree completely, the reward, sucks. Even if we hadnt set up a POS, lets just say we've written that off, the reward still very much sucks. Im greatly disappointed in CCP, I understand that we arnt meant to settle there, but we were promised bigger risk with bigger reward, yes the risk is there, but the reward?... there is no reward. Forget the cost of the POS, there is no coloration between the monetary reward and the risk. Take a look at any aspect of eve, bang, pay the bill... look into wspace and you see toxic debts not unlike what we are seeing with the real world economy at the moment.
Flinchey Amarr	Posted - 2009.03.31 10:22:00 - [116] Originally by: Induc Edited by: Induc on 30/03/2009 21:48:18 Edited by: Induc on 30/03/2009 21:47:16 Edited by: Induc on 30/03/2009 21:45:53 Some people argue that wh should be about emptying a wh and then move on to the next. Let's assume that me and a friend gets out with an orca to mine some gas. We bring a small pos so that the orca guy can swap ship to a gas harvesting fitted ship. The orca would have roughly 100,000 m3 cargo designated for fullerite. Let's assume we are both max skilled with 5 T2 harvesters netting in a total of 5 m3 gas per sec (10 harvesters * 20 m3 / 40 sec duration). At that pace it will take 5.5 hours to fill the orca. Let's say you manage to always find C50, one of the best fullerite (with the exception of the rare C320/C540) worth around 20,000 isk per m3 atm. A full orca load of C50 would sell for 2 billion isk. That is 2000 / 5.5 = 364M per hour / 2 = 181M per hour per person. Sounds like a lot? Then consider this: You would have to switch ladar site every 30 minutes (10,000 m3 gas per ladar site) If we assume each wh has 3 ladar sites you would have to switch wh system 4 times. You then would have to anchor, online and unachor the POS 4 times. That alone takes 5 hours. well yo know nothing about fullerite harvesting currently living in a wh system with about 10 other corp members C50 is junk gas. 10k/unit but we've found 2 maassive clouds of C320 (with 540 in small amounts) (what are you on about 10,000m^3 rofl, try 50,000 more like it) and one with C84/C50 we've just spent the last 3 days harvesting a single site or 320 (onto the second one)... have maybe... 5 billion isk in C320 (and more in rare ores from the gravis that have them.. 2 or 3 so far of them..) we haven't been able to run any of the anomolies fully (not enough people online at once to get the manpower).. or the radar we've found (20 sleepers is too many :() so we've got i-dont-even-know how many billion isk including all ores, fullerenes, sleeper loot/salvage. and much. MUCH more to come... with maybe... a couple hundred mill loss from the first fail anomoly and .. about 150mil loss from the radar site (not sure how much salvage/loot there was) we've stuck in the same system since last friday. and the isk is keepin rolling in :)...
Aneu Angellus Caldari DAB PuPPet MasTers	Posted - 2009.03.31 10:42:00 - [117] I fully agree with Bellum... WSpace fails miserably... ________________ Dark Angel Battalion Aneu Angellus Chief Fluffer, PMS Subfluffer, FOE
Ricdics Tleilex Developments Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.03.31 11:56:00 - [118] Originally by: Turiel Demon Originally by: Ricdic Classic case of supply vs demand. In my case it isn't a big issue as I only get a few hours a day to play Eve so I can almost always find a radar or magnet site that has respawned, but for a corporation or small group (5-10) it would get boring incredibly quickly. ... In 1.5 weeks living in one system in WH space I have seen: 40+ Grav Sites 7 Ladar Sites 2 Magnetometric Sites 0 Radar Sites The above statements appear contradictory: only 2 mag and 0 radar in 10 days, but you found a radar or mag almost every time you logged in? Good catch sorry, I meant mag and ladar Originally by: Ricdic A few changes to wormhole details I think need to be seriously considered: 1) A way to filter out previously scanned sites. We know the map retains this knowledge as it shows a marker. So allow it to filter previously scanned sites. This really puts exploration the way one would expect CCP wanted it to be. Explorer territories, map out the area. 2) Boosted respawn rate or higher seeding of ladar/magnet/radar sites Thinking of ways to boost exploration, how about an option to 'export' your list of scanned signatures, which can be handed to your corpmates or whoever... even sold? This would lessen the bookmark load on the server a little I'd expect, and also allow the trade in exploration sites with a little more ease than it has at the moment, but this is a tangent, so back to the point at hand... More ladar/mag/radar please! Absolutely, some way to export would be great, it saves passing bookmarks like the old days
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.03.31 14:15:00 - [119] Originally by: Ricdic I love that CCP has released this expansion but I hate how after big expansions it's like a shut door without CCP response for a few months. Let's get some discussion happening CCP, let's hear your impressions, are things meeting the standards etc etc. Talk to your customers, we are foaming at the mouth to hear what you have to say. Sadly I would not hold my breath on this. After Faction Warfare was released there was the same cone of silence; as initial enthusiasm began to wane over the following months, they had a few one-liner "we never really intended it to be something people would would want to stick with long term" responses, but there's never to my knowledge been a detailed "here's how we see the FW expansion, here's what we think worked and here's what we still hope to improve someday" feedback from anybody at CCP.
KhaniKirai	Posted - 2009.03.31 22:15:00 - [120] So, can tier 3 ships already be thrown in the same useless corner as the socalled faction drones? You know, these silly 1.5 and t2+ types of drones, with the bpc's dropping in exploration sites in drone region, but they are ONLY 5 runs, so not really interesting. The parts are too rare and drop barely, if lucky, you get 2 parts from an container in a site, when you need like 40 items to produce 1 drone. Where you need to get elite ai thingies also for the augmented ones. Result: too much time needed to produce something, that has an effective value, that is even lower then 1 percent of the time invested to produce them. In other words: pointless stuff.... Seems t3 things will go to that corner soon as well, when people realize, they not worth it and then you only get an handfull people doing it, just out of boredom.

Turiel Demon Minmatar Shadow Reapers DAMAGE INC...	Posted - 2009.03.31 22:30:00 - [121] Edited by: Turiel Demon on 31/03/2009 22:31:12 Originally by: KhaniKirai So, can tier 3 ships already be thrown in the same useless corner as the socalled faction drones? You know, these silly 1.5 and t2+ types of drones, with the bpc's dropping in exploration sites in drone region, but they are ONLY 5 runs, so not really interesting. The parts are too rare and drop barely, if lucky, you get 2 parts from an container in a site, when you need like 40 items to produce 1 drone. Where you need to get elite ai thingies also for the augmented ones. Result: too much time needed to produce something, that has an effective value, that is even lower then 1 percent of the time invested to produce them. In other words: pointless stuff.... Seems t3 things will go to that corner soon as well, when people realize, they not worth it and then you only get an handfull people doing it, just out of boredom. So THAT is what those 'elite drone AI' thingies are, I always just shrug and leave them in the cans in missions There's always tons of them on contracts, but I don't know if anyone ever buys them. It sounds like T3 is modeled pretty closely on that production method but with CCP's hope that people would make more use of WH space exploration than drone space exploration...
Taius Pax	Posted - 2009.03.31 22:53:00 - [122] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: Jennz Originally by: Bellum Eternus [We easily generate 4-5 billion ISK in one go when we find something to do, but the downtime between sessions like that is too long, so the average ISK ends up being below L4 empire mission rates. Err what? You talk about making 4-5 billion ISK in one go like it's nothing, then moan about high-sec profits? I consider myself pretty much on the bleeding edge in mission completion times and I'm certainly not making 4-5 billions a week. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I'm fairly certain I can't kill stuff faster than I am currently. It seems like it's your perspective of profitability is skewed rather than the system itself. Here's a dirty little secret: with the exception of those very few individuals who have found a niche, those legion of CNRs running missions in Motsu etc aren't making 4-5 billion per week, and if you're making anything like that kind of ISK in WHs then you've got nothing to whine about at all. You're doing it wrong. No, you.
Daan Sai Polytrope	Posted - 2009.03.31 23:37:00 - [123] Look, if you really want T3 to fly and develop, listen to the Pirate (OP). If you want w-space to be a part time curiosity then continue as is now. I'm happy to dip into w-space and raid some low level radar sites and get out for some iskies, but if we really want a dependable T3 supply chain then the folks prepared to work at EvE should be able to set up a dependable operation and stick with it, like the Dysp moons for T2. Without this, T3 will die... --------------------------------- Internet Submarines is Serious Business ---------------------------------
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.04.01 00:13:00 - [124] I think it's awesome that w-space is encouraging the nomads and explorers and discouraging the number-crunchers and accountants... absolutely awesome. There's already plenty of activities for those who care about maximum isk per hour of flying. I fly with a corp that's been nomadic in 0.0 space for a couple years now and we are right at home in w-space. We've never bothered with POSs or logistics and I really couldn't imagine being tied down with a "ball and chain" of infrastructure to drag around with us as we explore. Party on in w-space! CCP thanks for giving us wanderers someplace groovy. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
Indigo Johnson Minmatar	Posted - 2009.04.01 01:25:00 - [125] Bellum, try it another way. Base in low sec or npc 0.0 and scan out WHs there, you say you are a group so there should be 2-3+ people scanning right? You should come up with multiple wh's in the space of 30mins or so i reckon (if you have a group scanning, unless your unlucky) and should have them scanned out inside in 30-40mins tops to see if there are any low strength radar/mag sites. Don't find any? Move on. Sometimes you will get lucky, hit a systems with 2 mag sites or a few radar, sometimes it will just be a tonne of grav and a few wh to high sec, thats the random nature of the beast, but buy spreading your bets from k-space and having multiple peeps scan multiple wh's you increase your chance of hitting the mag sites and those juicy intact hull sections :P
ivar R'dhak Minmatar	Posted - 2009.04.01 01:44:00 - [126] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Originally by: CCP Greyscale It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed. Thanks for the input Greyscale! This really helps me out with respect to making some decisions about the time cost of developing w-space ventures. Back to k-space it is... Yes. Thnx Greyscale for clearing up that last retSrded design decision you guys made, to render the new content irrelevant. Apart from loosing skillpoints I paid for, if I get shot down in my shiny new T3 cruiser. Canceling accounts, back in a year or so. Maybe you¦ll learn your lessons in time for walking on planets. Back to the fanbois. _ Mal-`Appears we got here just in a nick of time. What does that make us?¦ Zoe-¦Big damn heroes sir.¦ Mal-¦Aint we just.¦
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.04.01 01:48:00 - [127] Originally by: ivar R'dhak Canceling accounts, back in a year or so. Bye :) ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
JfG D00MSAYER Caldari Black Mesa Nexus-Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.01 02:12:00 - [128] Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri I think it's awesome that w-space is encouraging the nomads and explorers and discouraging the number-crunchers and accountants... absolutely awesome. There's already plenty of activities for those who care about maximum isk per hour of flying. I fly with a corp that's been nomadic in 0.0 space for a couple years now and we are right at home in w-space. We've never bothered with POSs or logistics and I really couldn't imagine being tied down with a "ball and chain" of infrastructure to drag around with us as we explore. Party on in w-space! CCP thanks for giving us wanderers someplace groovy. Im sure everyone who likes the nomad-way will be happy. But why limit it to only that way, it cant be that hard to make nomads and settlements in wormhole space balanced/interesting with positive and negative sides for each. So that nomads have the bonus of a new system with lots of anomalies every day and the settlers arent bored to hell most of their playtime. Kind of interesting why this was an early design limitation that "farming" sleepers/fullerenes isnt allowed Who could afford a battleship or even a capital ship if u couldnt mine lots of minerals in highsec/0.0 every day? Who could afford a T2 cruiser/BS if you had to move your pos every few weeks for more moonminerals?
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.01 03:00:00 - [129] Now, can cynos be opened in W-Space? This would certainly be a buff to black ops I suppose. --
Artassaut Minmatar Oblivion Amalgamated	Posted - 2009.04.01 03:47:00 - [130] Originally by: Marcus Druallis Now, can cynos be opened in W-Space? This would certainly be a buff to black ops I suppose. No. Even if you could, I'd like to see someone jump that distance. --- The Gate: Lol, try targeting me in a fleet fight. The Station: No U.

Dave Tehsulei Atomic Battle Penguins The Darwin Award Foundation	Posted - 2009.04.01 04:30:00 - [131] All I see in this thread is lots of people looking for a new way to farm isk... It should be impossible for a group to "claim" a system long term by means of pos, i think the whole idea of pos in wh space just opens it up to becoming a mirror of 0.0 with local replaced by the scan button. If you want to farm the resources in whs you should come prepared to fight off others looking to do the same and you most certainly shouldn't have the option to hide in your pos and wait till they leave(ie the standard 0.0 method). Any claim to a wh system should only be as good as the defenders skills and ships not their pos modules. Im glad to read ccps intention was to make it hard to "settle" in a system, this is perfect and as it should be. It doesnt mean you cant live long term inside wh space itself - With the right ships and a bit of planning long term operations through systems can be done without the need of anchoring pos or claiming/basing from one system. The new systems are profitable enough to encourage people to keep making trips back and fourth between known and unknown space and this is good it provides new opportunities for pvp. If theres some suggestion that eventually all of unknown space is going to be void of any anomalies i doubt very much ccp will allow it to occur and my own ventures into wh space from empire and 0.0 have yet to lead me to a system without significant resources to exploit. ------- Forum \| Website
The Snowman Gallente Wurmz.	Posted - 2009.04.01 08:40:00 - [132] Originally by: Santiago Fahahrri I think it's awesome that w-space is encouraging the nomads and explorers and discouraging the number-crunchers and accountants... absolutely awesome. I think your missing the point. Everyone already agree's its lots of fun. Originally by: Dave Tehsulei All I see in this thread is lots of people looking for a new way to farm isk... And you too. Forget the POS, forget methods of farming and investing in something that has x amounts of reward. The point is that CCP advertised this through many blogs and interviews and lectures right up until release that wormhole space represented a place of "greater risk but with greater reward" Alow that to sink into your minds for a moment. What is the risk, and is it risky? YES, read the forums, many many many stories of people going into wh-space and losing their ship and their pod's for nothing, not just cheap ships, very expensive ships. So the risk is defiantly greater, but the rewards? You have to realize that people arnt upset because there is no new method of farming, and people accept that players love the exploration, but this is not what were told to expect, and this is whats frustrating. Its like you buying a chocolate cake, taking it home only to find you have something completely different, ok it may be nice for some of your guests it maybe even nicer, but thats not the reason you bought it! and you would most defiantly complain. And thats what this thread is.
The Blinded GK inc.	Posted - 2009.04.01 10:35:00 - [133] Not sure if it was mentioned in this thread, but you do know that warping a capital ship onto some site in W-space spawns 6 sleeper BS right? :p Maybe you can chain-farm like that with few carriers.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.04.01 11:38:00 - [134] Originally by: JfG D00MSAYER Im sure everyone who likes the nomad-way will be happy. But why limit it to only that way, it cant be that hard to make nomads and settlements in wormhole space balanced/interesting with positive and negative sides for each. So that nomads have the bonus of a new system with lots of anomalies every day and the settlers arent bored to hell most of their playtime. Kind of interesting why this was an early design limitation that "farming" ? I get what you're saying. I think the answer is "Yes, it is that hard to balance." Look at 0.0 space and the sov situation for the past couple years. If "farming" was a viable venture in w-space it would only be a matter of time before the independant, opportunistic, pioneering corporations are systematically driven out by mega-alliances moving in to take over the farms. They don't need dread-fleets to do it. They can starve out settlers with a dedicated combat group in-system, bubbling every wormhole, camping the sites, and destroying haulers full of POS fuel. The alliances have endured years of POS/sov warfare. They have the dedication to do this. Once a system is "claimed" by an alliance it is generally no longer open to nomads and explorers. The groups who would take over w-space would bring the tried and true NBSI rules of 0.0 in and shoot anyone attempting to get a piece of "thier" resources and "thier" Sleeper sites.
The Snowman Gallente Wurmz.	Posted - 2009.04.01 11:56:00 - [135] Originally by: The Blinded Not sure if it was mentioned in this thread, but you do know that warping a capital ship onto some site in W-space spawns 6 sleeper BS right? :p Yes, you can generate yourself more risk, but you cant generate yourself more reward. Those extra BS's will take a certain amount of extra time to go through, but the reward is no greater. Once you figure out how to tank the sleepers the greatest risk of Wspace becomes getting lost / player-ganked. The longer you stay there the greater that risk becomes, so simply spawning more stuff to do is not a solution, in fact its opposite! it merly generates more risk.... which again means CCP's "greater risk = greater reward" advert is wrong. its more like "greater risk = lesser rewards" Its almost as if CCP are deliberately luring players to wpsace under the guise of more rewards, when in fact its not, its a money sink. Its becoming increasingly clear, expansion after expansion that CCP cannot get this right, Even though they employ a dedicated "economist" Which no other MMO's does.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.04.01 12:42:00 - [136] Originally by: The Snowman The point is that CCP advertised this through many blogs and interviews and lectures right up until release that wormhole space represented a place of "greater risk but with greater reward" Alow that to sink into your minds for a moment. What is the risk, and is it risky? YES, read the forums, many many many stories of people going into wh-space and losing their ship and their pod's for nothing, not just cheap ships, very expensive ships. So the risk is defiantly greater, but the rewards? You have to realize that people arnt upset because there is no new method of farming, and people accept that players love the exploration, but this is not what were told to expect, and this is whats frustrating. So - we want something new and different to explore but we also demand full disclosure of all the details before we explore the new and different thing and we complain if there are discrepancies between our pre-exploration assumptions from the disclosure.... Are you sure you are the type of person who enjoys exploration? What I'm getting is that the people upset here are the type would would plan out a schedule and itenerary for every minute of a vacation and get stressed out if they got off-schedule on day 3 of "relaxing".
Derus Grobb Selectus Pravus Lupus	Posted - 2009.04.09 23:41:00 - [137] Originally by: Jalum Krayal We might as well rename Strategic Cruisers to Siigari cruisers until they do. First of all, lol at that. I hate this "ISK/hour" thing the OP mentions. You have to understand that not everyone sees the game in those terms. What's wrong with just having fun and making a healthy bit of ISK in the process? I live in a medium WH POS with a few other guys. Yes its a sacrifice, yes some days there are only gravimetric spawns and there are not always sleepers to kill. My advice is this. Don't try to farm only your own system, fly through an exit wormhole and scan the other side. Today I jumped to a lowsec k-space and there were 4 radar sites sitting there, with nobody in local. Two days ago a k-space system neighbouring our exit system yielded a WH with over 300 million isk of gas in a single LADAR site. Eureka! To the person whining because they have to sit and wait while the prober does his thing, this is exploration! Where would the fun be if everything apeared on your overview? Originally by: Dave Tehsulei If you want to farm the resources in whs you should come prepared to fight off others looking to do the same and you most certainly shouldn't have the option to hide in your pos and wait till they leave My guys left their cosy level 4s and paid a few hundred mil for the POS, the fuel, the logistical hassles. I think we most certainly should be able to get a tactical advantage from it. And anyway, we don't hide, we pew pew ---
crastar	Posted - 2009.04.10 22:33:00 - [138] Originally by: Derus Grobb Originally by: Jalum Krayal We might as well rename Strategic Cruisers to Siigari cruisers until they do. First of all, lol at that. I hate this "ISK/hour" thing the OP mentions. You have to understand that not everyone sees the game in those terms. What's wrong with just having fun and making a healthy bit of ISK in the process? I live in a medium WH POS with a few other guys. Yes its a sacrifice, yes some days there are only gravimetric spawns and there are not always sleepers to kill. My advice is this. Don't try to farm only your own system, fly through an exit wormhole and scan the other side. Today I jumped to a lowsec k-space and there were 4 radar sites sitting there, with nobody in local. Two days ago a k-space system neighbouring our exit system yielded a WH with over 300 million isk of gas in a single LADAR site. Eureka! To the person whining because they have to sit and wait while the prober does his thing, this is exploration! Where would the fun be if everything apeared on your overview? Originally by: Dave Tehsulei If you want to farm the resources in whs you should come prepared to fight off others looking to do the same and you most certainly shouldn't have the option to hide in your pos and wait till they leave My guys left their cosy level 4s and paid a few hundred mil for the POS, the fuel, the logistical hassles. I think we most certainly should be able to get a tactical advantage from it. And anyway, we don't hide, we pew pew You can hate the isk/hour thing all you want, it wont change the fact that without isk/hour you wouldn't be in a wormhole to begin with, and the ship you are flying would never have been produced be it T1 or T2. The OP is making a valid point, unless something changes T3 production will never achieve anything like T2. Simple as that.
Xessej	Posted - 2009.04.11 00:08:00 - [139] So CCP doesn't want people settling in w space? A simple question for the devs then, why are there fixed grav sites in w space systems. My corp has settled a class 3 system and we are very methodical about scanning and in 2 weeks it has become quite clear that 8 grav sites (2 each of 4 low end kinds) are fixed in the system. mine them out and they despawn and a brand new identical one spawns. Now we're thankful for those grav sites as they provide us a little loot, salvage and an opportunity to mine while we chat etc. waiting around for the good stuff to spawn but they seem expressly intended to provide basic minerals for manufacturing consumables for people who live in w space. If those 8 sites, and what 20k others like them in the rest of w space, are part of the total number of cosmic sigs then randomize them some. Having to scan down the same 8 sites every couple of days is beyond tedious.
Valeronx Celestial Horizon Corp. I.C.C Industrial Drive Yards	Posted - 2009.04.11 02:15:00 - [140] Originally by: Marlenus Originally by: Bellum Eternus So no, my perspective isn't skewed. It's just that most players aren't thinking on a large enough scale or just simply aren't that high performance enough to appreciate the maximum extrapolation of the game design limitations. Yeah, your perspective is skewed. That large-scale high-performance min-maxing isn't the only way to attack this game. It may be your preferred approach, but that doesn't mean every new feature has to offer more isk/hour than min-maxed missioning or ratting in order to be a success. It's very possible -- I'm not saying it will happen, just saying it could happen -- that lots of people will go to w-space, and in the end produce enough resources to support a flourishing T3 industry, even if the profit from it all never reaches even a tenth of what you could make missioning or ratting as a min-maxed oldster. Not everybody is a profit maximizer. Lots of people hate mission running no matter how much it pays. ISK is nice stuff, but it's not the only stuff. This. .

Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.04.11 02:28:00 - [141] Originally by: Valeronx Originally by: Marlenus Originally by: Bellum Eternus So no, my perspective isn't skewed. It's just that most players aren't thinking on a large enough scale or just simply aren't that high performance enough to appreciate the maximum extrapolation of the game design limitations. Yeah, your perspective is skewed. That large-scale high-performance min-maxing isn't the only way to attack this game. It may be your preferred approach, but that doesn't mean every new feature has to offer more isk/hour than min-maxed missioning or ratting in order to be a success. It's very possible -- I'm not saying it will happen, just saying it could happen -- that lots of people will go to w-space, and in the end produce enough resources to support a flourishing T3 industry, even if the profit from it all never reaches even a tenth of what you could make missioning or ratting as a min-maxed oldster. Not everybody is a profit maximizer. Lots of people hate mission running no matter how much it pays. ISK is nice stuff, but it's not the only stuff. This. . Yep, this. I'd leave the game before I'd min/max or calculate isk per hour for my entertainment time. Risk vs. reward? Dunno.. never calculated that either. I've been having fun flying for over three years without bothering with these concepts - obviously these things are not required. ~ Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic
HankMurphy Minmatar Pelennor Enterprises	Posted - 2009.04.11 03:31:00 - [142] Not enough isk per hour for you in wormholes? Well at least the isk is there to be made somewhere. It could be like the last huge content add they called Factional Warfare. People started wondering where the reward part of the risk was and CCP just said 'fun IS the reward'. I think the pain in the ass you are experiencing is the check/balance to battle possible hardcore farming. ---------- Hey, sewer rat may taste like pumpkin pie, but I'd never know 'cause I wouldn't eat the filthy motherf***er.
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.04.11 20:39:00 - [143] Originally by: HankMurphy It could be like the last huge content add they called Factional Warfare. People started wondering where the reward part of the risk was and CCP just said 'fun IS the reward'. Actually I worry that it could turn out like that, because with FW, there wasn't enough fun to sustain the economic losses, and people started quitting in droves. At which point CCP said words to the effect of "that's cool, we didn't want FW to compete with the the 0.0 manpower pool anyway" and left it alone -- essentially abandoning unfinished a feature that was once supposed to be game-changing. Wormholes, unlike FW, do have some financial rewards built in, so I don't think the risk is as large; there's a lot of fun and some loot to be had, so there will always be wormhole divers even if T3 fails miserably. I appreciate the folks who have concurred with me that min-maxing is not the only way to play this game; but that doesn't mean I despise all ISK considerations. The hope for a financial score underlies everything I do in EVE, and I had to give up on faction warfare in large part because there was no hope there. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
Marcus Tedric Gallente Tedric Enterprises The Star League	Posted - 2009.04.13 14:14:00 - [144] Originally by: The Snowman ...... Its becoming increasingly clear, expansion after expansion that CCP cannot get this right, Even though they employ a dedicated "economist" Which no other MMO's does. Unless something has changed in the last year-and-a-half since I asked him at his (and my) first Fanfest dear old 'Dr E' doesn't actually play EVE. Nothing in the, very occasional, so-called, 'Quarterly reviews', changes my view that he applies the statistics he gathers to book-Economics (like many people do) and draws specious conclusions. He's not alone in this mind you - thousands of people make completely arbitary statements based on some statistics every day if it happens to support their agenda. What CCP should have done is employ a very intelligent player with a statistical background who then queries and checks the reasons behind every figure they see. For my part, I just hope EVE continues to 'try and make sense' and has some reasonable amount of logic behind it - and amongst that are indeed all the arguments and discussions of 'risk vs reward' and 'isk per hour'. Yes, Lvl 4 missions do generate completely rediculous amounts of isk for the time invested - but there are many sensible reasons for this in the game design that enable EVE to be the game it is. M2CW
ollobrains Caldari State Inc. People for Organised Peace	Posted - 2009.04.22 01:05:00 - [145] ok so ccp invest probably millions in this latest sleeper expansion and now dont want peeps settling in those systems or even perhaps even spawning sleeper sites ..... ok so then why the frak go ahead with it , shooting themselves in the foot or is it not ship related so it gets nerfed haha typical
ollobrains Caldari State Inc. People for Organised Peace	Posted - 2009.04.22 02:01:00 - [146] so if its working as intended what next just close the wormholes and go back to existing space or use em as transit pionts only ?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2009.04.22 02:28:00 - [147] Edited by: Akita T on 22/04/2009 02:30:44 Originally by: CCP Greyscale It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed. Can you say "tragedy of the commons" ? Congratulations on killing your own baby. P.S. Of course, you went back on it and gave everybody freaking humongous regular ore asteroids instead on a regular basis. That doesn't make any sense no matter how you look at it : you either want people to move the frak out, or you want them to make a steady profit. CCP's design decisions almost look like the ones a canary high on sugar water with LSD would make.
Isaac Starstriker Amarr Solaris Operations	Posted - 2009.04.22 03:33:00 - [148] Fine, all of you quit Exploring Wormholes (lol at idiot who wants to have a new dyso moon. That's a terrible mechanic and incredibly boring). Myself and people who are like minded will reap the benefits of a hell of a lot less competition. Fun is what we are having. No war-deck issues, no politics, lots of new space and challenges. You all go back to the grind of 0.0 and blob fests. Quit the game, curse CCP, whatever you want to do. I'll still be here having fun and chilling. --Isaac Isaac's Haul*Mart - Open
Vaal Erit Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2009.04.22 03:55:00 - [149] OP is angry about not being able to farm NPCs? Go back to friggin' WoW, you carebear. The multiple dev blogs about wormholes CLEARLY state how you are supposed to explore, move around and engage others, not sit in one place and farm isk. Seriously, stop trying to change the game into a boring, oversimplified wow clone.
ollobrains Caldari State Inc. People for Organised Peace	Posted - 2009.04.22 08:30:00 - [150] well for wormhole residents it might just mean more trips out of their native systems into empty neighbouring systems

Shadowsword Epsilon Lyr Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2009.04.22 09:28:00 - [151] Originally by: CCP Greyscale It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed. Thanks for the answer, it's always better than no answer at all. But how is that design decision compatible with that other design decision about wanting T3 cruisers to be affordable for pvp? ------------------------------------------
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.04.22 09:32:00 - [152] Originally by: Vaal Erit OP is angry about not being able to farm NPCs? Go back to friggin' WoW, you carebear. The multiple dev blogs about wormholes CLEARLY state how you are supposed to explore, move around and engage others, not sit in one place and farm isk. Seriously, stop trying to change the game into a boring, oversimplified wow clone. LOL. No. I was simply trying to figure out the amount of man hours required to produce the raw materials for T3 ships, and whether or not the reward was going to be worth the risk/effort. It's not. My crew and I have since done more testing and have figured out a fairly reliable and consistent respawn schedule for the L5 and L6 systems we operate in. It's still not worth the effort to install a POS and try and maintain a consistent presence in w-space. The main issue at the moment is simply having enough throw away alt characters to populate our w-space POSes so that we can return to them when the resources have respawned. This is actually quite a big problem when you consider that with only three characters per account and quite a few w-space POSes you need some redundancy per POS so that something horrible doesn't happen (like disconnecting and getting podded or something and being the last character there at the POS, thereby losing the whole thing). Anyway, lots of overhead, lots of risk, not that much reward per man-hour in terms of ISK. And all I was really interested in was making T3 less expensive. So fail more 'carebear'. Irony much? If anyone is a carebear here, it's you. Bellum Eternus Inveniam viam aut faciam. Death of Virtue is Recruiting
ollobrains Caldari State Inc. People for Organised Peace	Posted - 2009.04.22 10:00:00 - [153] there are already several small alliances forming with like minded corps just colonizing wspace. Best suited for 30-40 man corps who cooperate to setup in a system or two. Big aliances are in on the act to
Bellum Eternus Gallente Death of Virtue	Posted - 2009.04.22 10:20:00 - [154] Originally by: ollobrains there are already several small alliances forming with like minded corps just colonizing wspace. Best suited for 30-40 man corps who cooperate to setup in a system or two. Big aliances are in on the act to I'm unconcerned with large 30-40 man efforts. I'm specifically focused on what small groups of a dozen or fewer people can accomplish in order to keep the ISK per person high and the effort and infrastructure low. I'm interested in how the new content affects the small group of players, not the large alliances. Anything can be done with a bigger blob. I don't want to resort to a blob to be able to access the new content.
Turiel Demon Minmatar Shadow Reapers DAMAGE INC...	Posted - 2009.04.22 14:02:00 - [155] Over the last couple of days I've helped set up a 7 man corp in a c5 system, which gets a daily connection to a c6. This wormhole can also be collapsed at will. Taking on the core sites takes some practice and quick reactions on the RR, but with that practice you can effectively farm c6's at will from a single base.
J'Yden	Posted - 2009.04.22 17:47:00 - [156] Is anyone else having the problem with their WH base system spawning zero sigs? We have had this issue for 3 days now. Adjacent WH's are barren also? Have not seen a gra site anywhere in 3 days.
Santiago Fahahrri Galactic Geographic	Posted - 2009.04.22 17:54:00 - [157] Originally by: J'Yden Is anyone else having the problem with their WH base system spawning zero sigs? We have had this issue for 3 days now. Adjacent WH's are barren also? Have not seen a gra site anywhere in 3 days. Over the last couple days we've been in a class 3 and a class 6 - both had several grav and ladar sites
Vladimir Norkoff Income Redistribution Service	Posted - 2009.04.22 18:03:00 - [158] Originally by: J'Yden Is anyone else having the problem with their WH base system spawning zero sigs? After the patch my system was reduced to 3 gravs and some WHs. A few days later the gravs disappeared and were replaced by a single Radar (which I immediately cleared). Since then the only signatures are WHs.
MadMentor Eternum Pariah	Posted - 2009.04.22 22:37:00 - [159] Edited by: MadMentor on 22/04/2009 22:37:44 Originally by: Bellum Eternus With a relatively small crew (5-6 guys) we're able to fully exploit a Tier 5 wormhole in an afternoon. ...and when we find something, we're done with it inside of 15 minutes and then it's on to the next w-space system. Please do tell, are you guys using capital sips?
ollobrains Caldari State Inc. People for Organised Peace	Posted - 2009.04.23 04:34:00 - [160] yes this seems to be an issue all li can suggest is collasping these new wh as fas as u can that does mean someone gets stuck though. Farm sits u can and if u have nothing in system file a petition with ccp enough reports of no sigs in system and they might wake up to themselves and put dynamic sapwning back in

Turiel Demon Minmatar Shadow Reapers DAMAGE INC...	Posted - 2009.04.23 11:19:00 - [161] Originally by: MadMentor Edited by: MadMentor on 22/04/2009 22:37:44 Originally by: Bellum Eternus With a relatively small crew (5-6 guys) we're able to fully exploit a Tier 5 wormhole in an afternoon. ...and when we find something, we're done with it inside of 15 minutes and then it's on to the next w-space system. Please do tell, are you guys using capital sips? No, 5-7 RR bs (RR domi/phoons are nice with 3 reps, but low-ish DPS) can take on any non-core sites with relative ease, especially if you get something nice like a +85% rr bonus . Still, when going for sites in the C6's, there are sites which START with 5 sleeper bs, cruisers, frigs and towers... I hate to think what the respawns will be. Anyone taken on a site like 'the Mirror' and lived to tell the tale yet? I'm thinking you'll need a couple of Triage carriers, but maybe it can be done without... Also, it has come to my attention that I'm really in need of a proper signature.
Benilopax Gallente	Posted - 2009.04.23 11:39:00 - [162] It's quite clear that although colonisation was not what CCP intended, people are still doing it! However a CEO I know who took his corp to wh space asked about sovereingty and the reply he got didn't rule out that possibility. ----------------------------------- It is I, the Living Exploit! Messing up the game since Nov 04.
Phelaen Under the Wings of Fury Atrocitas	Posted - 2009.04.23 11:42:00 - [163] has anyone tried turning on triage in WH space? i was wondering if it was possible.
Ringo Jeicha Caldari State War Academy	Posted - 2009.04.23 21:07:00 - [164] Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff Originally by: J'Yden Is anyone else having the problem with their WH base system spawning zero sigs? After the patch my system was reduced to 3 gravs and some WHs. A few days later the gravs disappeared and were replaced by a single Radar (which I immediately cleared). Since then the only signatures are WHs. Same prob here, i guess it really is a bug now. I can live with slow spawning as the sites are quite large, but not spawning stuff at all. If that was an intended game mechanic, they should have been in the patchnotes instead of stealth-nailing us in the a$$ beforehand. --- Braaaiiinnnsssssssssss
Turiel Demon Minmatar Shadow Reapers DAMAGE INC...	Posted - 2009.04.23 21:20:00 - [165] There's no need to rely on the system you have your POS in, most worthwhile WH have enough mass capacity to let 20 BS through, a gang of 10 both ways shouldn't have much difficulty with anything but the hardest C6 sites. Also, it has come to my attention that I'm really in need of a proper signature.
Qual Gallente Cornexant Research	Posted - 2009.04.24 06:53:00 - [166] Originally by: Ringo Jeicha Same prob here, i guess it really is a bug now. I can live with slow spawning as the sites are quite large, but not spawning stuff at all. If that was an intended game mechanic, they should have been in the patchnotes instead of stealth-nailing us in the a$$ beforehand. The bug is clearly the lack of grav sites respawns. I havent seen any new grav sites in any system, settled or not Greyscale, for about a week. Dont try to tell me thats not broken. "The short version: Qual is right." -Papa Smurf
deathstoker	Posted - 2009.04.24 18:24:00 - [167] We are having the same issues, at first we had tons of rocks to chew. Now we have nothing but the wh and maybe a radar/ladar if we are lucky. Way to tease us with the good rocks and then snatch them away ccp :(
Smox Rox	Posted - 2009.04.24 22:50:00 - [168] Originally by: deathstoker We are having the same issues, at first we had tons of rocks to chew. Now we have nothing but the wh and maybe a radar/ladar if we are lucky. Way to tease us with the good rocks and then snatch them away ccp :( Same issue here, in our Class 3. What's the word CCP?
Turiel Demon Minmatar Shadow Reapers DAMAGE INC...	Posted - 2009.04.24 23:56:00 - [169] Seeing less and less gravs now that you point it out, but that can simply be because it's been pointed out that I'm thinking I'm seeing it. In other sleeper-related news, can we get an increase on Neurovisual Input Matrix salvage drops? I'm not entirely happy paying 8-9m per 'basic' salvage component when the rare stuff isn't worth more than 250k heh. Melted Nanoribbons could use a looking at while you're at it. Also, it has come to my attention that I'm really in need of a proper signature.
Carebear Claire	Posted - 2009.04.25 17:50:00 - [170] yes, i have noticed this too, what gives CCP? We will still continue to live in unknown space, might as well make it worth our while

Ikathis sihtaki	Posted - 2009.04.25 18:28:00 - [171] seeing capitals being built inside w-space, i would say some are finding worthwhile, or a lot of iskies to burn.
Rakrist	Posted - 2009.04.26 19:14:00 - [172] Edited by: Rakrist on 26/04/2009 19:24:50 I think all those worrying about the implications of risk v.s. reward in W-space for Tech 3 production are forgetting CCP's ability to tweak Tech 3 production at any stage they want to. They could easily leave W-space exactly as it is and make Tech 3 ships cheaper to produce by halving or quartering the amount of W-space materials needed for their manufacture, much like they've done now with bombs. That ought to leave the value of the materials pretty much the same while ensuring the ships are cheap enough to reach the market they're intended for.
GateScout	Posted - 2009.04.26 21:06:00 - [173] Originally by: Bellum Eternus Now we've taken to venturing into neighboring w-space systems to exploit the resources there, Maybe that's the point? If you want to grind isk, do missions or go ratting. But, please, stop whining about W-space not respawning fast enough for you to farm it.
Vince Sinclair The Warp Squad	Posted - 2009.04.27 23:44:00 - [174] Originally by: Ringo Jeicha Originally by: Vladimir Norkoff Originally by: J'Yden Is anyone else having the problem with their WH base system spawning zero sigs? After the patch my system was reduced to 3 gravs and some WHs. A few days later the gravs disappeared and were replaced by a single Radar (which I immediately cleared). Since then the only signatures are WHs. Same prob here, i guess it really is a bug now. I can live with slow spawning as the sites are quite large, but not spawning stuff at all. If that was an intended game mechanic, they should have been in the patchnotes instead of stealth-nailing us in the a$$ beforehand. And the same prob here too. Nothing apart from a couple of anomalies in our system for the last two days. This has to be broken, surely?
Mr LaboratoryRat Confederation of DuckTape Lovers	Posted - 2009.04.27 23:52:00 - [175] i realy dont know were everybody is talking about. Im living for over a week in w-space in a class 5 with my alt's corp. It is nothing but fun! in 8 days i have had atleast 6-8 entries too other class 5's. 3-4 enties to 0.0, 2 too low sec and 2 too high sec. The sites do respawen very slow but if there is nothing in our wh we just go have some fun in the wh next too us or roaming abit in 0.0. or camping a high sec enty in the wh next too us. Im enjoying it soo much. Thanks CCP for the new gameplay its awesome!!! Ps teamwork ftw!
Turiel Demon Minmatar Shadow Reapers DAMAGE INC...	Posted - 2009.04.28 00:33:00 - [176] There does currently appear to be some kind of problem with the spawning mechanic: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1056166&page=2#34 Also, it has come to my attention that I'm really in need of a proper signature.
big fluf	Posted - 2009.04.28 17:33:00 - [177] I would just like to mention we too have noticed a huge issue with respawn rate, . we are getting 1 "thing" every few days worth a few million... nothign of any use/ value. We are "moving out" to a better one. Kev.
Soulspatch	Posted - 2009.05.11 12:21:00 - [178] Its been 9 days now with nothing new. We finished the last core site in our L5 W/H yesterday, now we have nothing, only 1 W/H out.
evil tribes	Posted - 2009.05.11 14:40:00 - [179] Originally by: CCP Greyscale It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed. Beeing not able to settle there and having to roam is also fine, but does ccp actually mind telling this prior before corpoarations invest a billion or more and a huge amount of time to find out that ccp forgot to add a single essential sentence? i thought ccp is a company that actually wants to make some profit, **ing of people is not the way this is going to work. It reminds me on how ccp screwed up t2. There you also managed to ** of the majority (almost all pvp'ers, cause you screwed the price and all moon miners that haven't had cadmium and co, cause their stuff dropped to production cost), and make a small group happy. Not thinking of the story behind it why you added this new "feature" for t2.
Nareg Maxence Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.11 15:56:00 - [180] I don't really see the issue. Anyone with more than superficial knowledge of exploration mechanics should be able to foresee that this would be the result. Everybody farms out the easy to get to wormhole systems, gradually forcing the sites away from those systems. Once they are gone, they never spawn again until someone goes one step further and starts attacking the more difficult to get to systems. I did a bit of exploration a couple of weeks ago and easily found wormhole systems filled with sites. You can do this too.

Turiel Demon Minmatar Shadow Reapers	Posted - 2009.05.11 16:09:00 - [181] It's not about the sites getting farmed out: even sites left alone in a system with a POS disappear, nothing comes back about 90% of the time. Also, it has come to my attention that I'm really in need of a proper signature.
Nareg Maxence Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.11 16:12:00 - [182] They don't disappear. They are found and completed and then despawn. Nothing comes back because they respawn in places where noone is looking, so they stay there forever.
Turiel Demon Minmatar Shadow Reapers	Posted - 2009.05.11 17:19:00 - [183] Edited by: Turiel Demon on 11/05/2009 17:18:55 Discovered sites have a 3 day timer, once those three days are up, completed or no, they disappear. That's what I mean by 'disappear' Also, it has come to my attention that I'm really in need of a proper signature.
Nareg Maxence Gallente	Posted - 2009.05.11 21:01:00 - [184] Anyway, the result is the same. The site moves to another system. If noone finds it there, you never see it again.
Fennicus Amarr United Trade Coalition	Posted - 2009.05.11 21:47:00 - [185] Edited by: Fennicus on 11/05/2009 21:49:21 Originally by: Qual The bug is clearly the lack of grav sites respawns. I havent seen any new grav sites in any system, settled or not Greyscale, for about a week. Dont try to tell me thats not broken. I've not seen any grav, mag, or combat sites spawn in my class 4 for over a week. One single radar and a handful of ladar sites. Whilst I doubt that the presence of a POS hurts respawn-chance, it really wouldn't surprise me if there were some unreachable wormhole systems that they're all piling up inside.
Par'Gellen Gallente Tres Hombres Psychiatric Hospital	Posted - 2009.05.12 18:18:00 - [186] Edited by: Par''Gellen on 12/05/2009 18:19:02 The few W-Space systems I've been in lately seemed empty of anything worthwhile. I guess now I know why... Maybe it's just bad luck and I keep finding ones that other people have cleaned out days ago Great job CCP --- To err is human. But it shouldn't be the company motto...
lo breeze	Posted - 2009.05.12 18:53:00 - [187] Edited by: lo breeze on 12/05/2009 18:54:32 Edited by: lo breeze on 12/05/2009 18:53:45 Quote: OP is angry about not being able to farm NPCs? Go back to friggin' WoW, you carebear. The multiple dev blogs about wormholes CLEARLY state how you are supposed to explore, move around and engage others, not sit in one place and farm isk. Seriously, stop trying to change the game into a boring, oversimplified wow clone. Have you even read the F'ing Dev blogs you are linking.... Quote: While it is theoretically possible to move a control tower into wormhole space, set it up and maintain it, the logistical challenge and risks of fueling and defending a tower in a system with no permanent links to known space would be considerable. But then again the potential rewards are equally great. Great rewards doesn't sound like "Go back to wow you carebare"...... idiot. Then maybe you can participate in a discussion like a big boy. Maybe. Not being able to settle meaning can't claim SOV. One or two POS' in a WH system is hardly the same as mutliple POS' cyno jamming and jump bridges and all the other hooplah of 0.0 Seriously stop trying to come off as knowing what you're talking about. Go back to friggin' Grade school as your reading comprehension is lacking.
The Subscriber	Posted - 2009.05.12 20:17:00 - [188] The previous post (saying go back to grade school) has been edited 3 times to correct mistakes.
Azurius Dante	Posted - 2009.05.15 10:50:00 - [189] Just to note. All Signatures (except wormholes) instantly despawn at the next downtime as soon as you anchor a POS.
Openseeker	Posted - 2009.05.15 12:02:00 - [190] Since my CEO's petition was finally answered, and YES the admitted there was a problem, things have since changed: For 3 weeks now, we've had the same pattern: Sometime on Sat/Sun we'll start to get new signals, mostly a couple of Roid fields, they are HUGE, with lots of stuff in them. They'll last until about Wednesday, when POOF, they'll go away. On Tuesday / Wednesday we'll get one or 2 Ladar signals, which will last until Thursday and POOF they'll go away. Thrusday/Friday/and sometimes Saturdays are dead times, only signals we get are Sleeper sites and WH's This has been happening consistantly for 3 weeks now, so I'd have to say it's a good indication of a pattern. As such, we've taken advantage of it, since we known about WHEN we're going to get new roids or gas clouds to mine. We did note that at one point the wormholes were acting freaky, we had SIX of them at one time! 2 to other wh systems, 2 to low sec, and 2 to null sec, was pretty wild to see that!

Hurtado Soneka Caldari State Protectorate	Posted - 2009.05.15 12:39:00 - [191] Originally by: mechtech Originally by: Ja'kar High sec is fixed! High sec is for those that what to be safe(ish) and make iss. CCp love me as they bring in cash! Don't expect high sec to get harder anytime soon High sec shouldn't be harder, it should just be 50% as profitable as it currently is. bull**** to this statement, high sec should be even more profitable than right now!
Azurius Dante	Posted - 2009.05.16 02:53:00 - [192] Edited by: Azurius Dante on 16/05/2009 02:52:50 Coming on 5 days without a single new site spawn including anomoly's (if you ignore the single wormhole out that respawns every 24hours) Is it broken?
CurtisH Gallente Crimson Logistical Blue Sun Trust	Posted - 2009.05.16 04:58:00 - [193] Edited by: CurtisH on 16/05/2009 04:58:05 Originally by: Nareg Maxence They don't disappear. They are found and completed and then despawn. Nothing comes back because they respawn in places where noone is looking, so they stay there forever. I think I found one spot where they're going :-P. http://i41.tinypic.com/2ey7zgg.jpg
Troye Gallente Intelligent Concepts Inc People for Organised Peace	Posted - 2009.05.16 05:23:00 - [194] This thread makes me sad, poeple are already complaining at not not being able to farm sleep sites like they can 0.0 plexs and missions... The focus of exploration is too move around and adapt not sit on your arse and wait for that pot of gold to land in your lap. My corp has WH POS in a C4 and it regularly opens into C3s which we're still able to make a profit on. The very point of wormholes is that nothing about them is static, as people have said above there are patterns to their movements but you have to work them out for yourself. Have you tried looking in the sourounding systems around your exit wh for more openings? Its risky but if your in WH route colapses just wait until one opens to high sec and then make your way to your home system when a favourable WH opens up, I've done it plenty of times. If you lack the patience and ingenuity to profit in WH space then I suggest you go back to 0.0 or mission running. I hope CCP will keep it the way it is and not give in to people more interested in filling their wallet than actualy having fun. If anything WH space needs to be more unpredictable and difficult than it already is. _______________________________________
Marlenus Caldari Ironfleet Towing And Salvage Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service	Posted - 2009.05.16 17:35:00 - [195] Originally by: Azurius Dante Just to note. All Signatures (except wormholes) instantly despawn at the next downtime as soon as you anchor a POS. This is completely untrue. As has been explained over and over, and confirmed by dev statements, there is NO link between the sig spawning mechanism and the POS mechanism. ------------------ Ironfleet.com
MyMastersVoice	Posted - 2009.05.17 10:52:00 - [196] Edited by: MyMastersVoice on 17/05/2009 10:53:00 To add to the info gathered: My corp has been in class 3 w-space for 13 days now, utilising a large staging POS. We located our current home with an initial 20 anomaly sites and over 25 sigs to scan down, plentiful bounty! Over the following 13 days, at a fairly casual operational tempo, we cleared all those sites and sigs along with additionals that spawned. The frustrations for me are that while we had a lot of sigs, we were getting some decent respawns of not just grav but radar's and mag sites into our system. Also we would comfortably have 2-4 wormholes at any given time. But as the number of sites and sigs in-system dwindled, so did the respawn rate. Now that we have no sites & sigs except for a single wormhole, we've been stuck in this vicious circle for 3 days now and going into day 4. One wormhole to lowsec spawns, nothing else. When that wormhole collapses, we get another lowsec wormhole. No wormholes to null or highsec, nor any deeper into w-space. I'm not joining the "OMG, POS = empty w-space" crowd, I know how the exploration and respawn mechanics work. But the experienced trend just seems a little ... uncomfortable. Is there possibly a weighting to the number of sigs & sites in-system when it comes to respawning more? Tons of sites & sigs = decent respawn / no sites & sigs = 1 wormhole respawn and little more? There's definitely feels like there's something else at play here other than the normal exploration respawn mechanics. I just don't know quite what to blame just yet.
Cypherous Minmatar Liberty Rogues Rally Against Evil	Posted - 2009.05.17 11:16:00 - [197] All seems to work fine here, i have a POS setup in a very easy WH system but this particular system always has 1 high sec WH and 1 WH leading to a dangerous system, there is no if's or buts about these WH's they are always there every day, this makes this a great system because we nuke what we have in our home system to get rid of unwanted visitors who will find nothing of interest and just farm off the dangerous systems, looks like its working perfectly to me :) --------- Liberty Rogues Site[/center]
Ace Secunda Aperture Harmonics APEX Conglomerate	Posted - 2009.05.19 18:41:00 - [198] Here is what i have found out, it might be true it might not, sounds like a fair conclusion though. Wormhole systems are arranged in constellations like KS systems, our WH is one of 6 WH's for instance, everytime you despawn a site it spawns somewhere else in the constellation. If the site is then not done in the other constellation they just mount up. This is why some WH systems have 30+ sigs and anoms in them when you find them. If you can get other corps or even your own corp into all of your constellation running the sites they will respawn more evenly and in abundance so the key is to find as many of your constellations WH's as possible and give the locations to other corps looking to get into WH space and for you to all work on the sites. I know someone who has access to a database showing the constellations and their 'designations' e.g. J132456, J324865 etc. but again this is what seems plausible and I have not seen it posted as a 'Rule' anywhere. 'If I can't blow it up It don't exsist'
Derus Grobb Selectus Pravus Lupus	Posted - 2009.05.20 15:40:00 - [199] Originally by: MyMastersVoice Edited by: MyMastersVoice on 17/05/2009 10:53:00 To add to the info gathered: My corp has been in class 3 w-space for 13 days now, utilising a large staging POS. We located our current home with an initial 20 anomaly sites and over 25 sigs to scan down, plentiful bounty! Over the following 13 days, at a fairly casual operational tempo, we cleared all those sites and sigs along with additionals that spawned. The frustrations for me are that while we had a lot of sigs, we were getting some decent respawns of not just grav but radar's and mag sites into our system. Also we would comfortably have 2-4 wormholes at any given time. But as the number of sites and sigs in-system dwindled, so did the respawn rate. Now that we have no sites & sigs except for a single wormhole, we've been stuck in this vicious circle for 3 days now and going into day 4. One wormhole to lowsec spawns, nothing else. When that wormhole collapses, we get another lowsec wormhole. No wormholes to null or highsec, nor any deeper into w-space. I'm not joining the "OMG, POS = empty w-space" crowd, I know how the exploration and respawn mechanics work. But the experienced trend just seems a little ... uncomfortable. Is there possibly a weighting to the number of sigs & sites in-system when it comes to respawning more? Tons of sites & sigs = decent respawn / no sites & sigs = 1 wormhole respawn and little more? There's definitely feels like there's something else at play here other than the normal exploration respawn mechanics. Interesting. My corp was in an identical position, your description is spookily similar. Originally by: MyMastersVoice I just don't know quite what to blame just yet. Blame your short-sightedness. Expand your horizons, look beyond your home system. It worked for us. Jump through that wormhole to lowsec, scan the system and the neighbouring systems for another wormhole and hey presto you just found 40 anomalies and sigs. A virgin system. That's where the spawns all go. ---
Julianus Soter Gallente The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Balance of Judgment	Posted - 2009.05.20 15:58:00 - [200] To be honest, the rampant colonization of w-space is starting to "break" the mechanic a bit. For instance, three faction towers in a single system, with labs, ship construction, refining, reverse engineering, etc, to boot? There's a huge amount of "squatting" presently going on that is antithetical to the premise that w-space is inhospitable. Why wouldn't the sleepers just sneeze and remove these cowboys from their space? It wouldn't be that hard to code Sleeper attacks that wouldn't drop loot to uproot the lazy bums who don't log into their w-space characters but for every two days.... --- This post is not the official statement of my alliance or corporation.

SocialPolice	Posted - 2009.05.20 16:09:00 - [201] Originally by: Julianus Soter To be honest, the rampant colonization of w-space is starting to "break" the mechanic a bit. For instance, three faction towers in a single system, with labs, ship construction, refining, reverse engineering, etc, to boot? There's a huge amount of "squatting" presently going on that is antithetical to the premise that w-space is inhospitable. Why wouldn't the sleepers just sneeze and remove these cowboys from their space? It wouldn't be that hard to code Sleeper attacks that wouldn't drop loot to uproot the lazy bums who don't log into their w-space characters but for every two days.... Whats wrong with consolidating your operation like that? We only run one faction large and its a lot of logistics and communism to live like that out of a pos. But having a single are of manufacture to run the whole chain is easier, for instance we mine what we need to create the ammo to ikill the sleepers, no isk loss, still piling up highend ores. We also mine to create smaller ships (Battlecruiser and smaller) to give to members. We mine gas and react them into polymers, we then use the polymers to create the components. We are researching BPOs at our lab and havent yet decided if we are going into reverse engineering. But being able to not have to haul ammo and ships into and out of w-space (except t2 of course) makes it much easier to live out there. Now we need Ice belts so i can fuel these towers!!!
MyMastersVoice	Posted - 2009.05.20 19:37:00 - [202] Originally by: Derus Grobb Originally by: MyMastersVoice I just don't know quite what to blame just yet. Blame your short-sightedness. Expand your horizons, look beyond your home system. It worked for us. Jump through that wormhole to lowsec, scan the system and the neighbouring systems for another wormhole and hey presto you just found 40 anomalies and sigs. A virgin system. That's where the spawns all go. We did look beyond our home system on a reasonably regular basis, as I did say I know how the exploration respawn mechanic works and hence we knew where the cleared sites were going. Regrettably all we found were dead-end lowsec/nullsec systems with no other wormholes, or other dead-end wormholes of too high a class for our fleet arrangement. I guess in that respect we just had poor luck, I don't attribute any 'conspiracy theories' to that particular situation.
iulixxi Caldari EVE-RO	Posted - 2009.06.03 16:08:00 - [203] Originally by: CCP Greyscale It was a design decision early on in the process that we didn't want people to "settle" in w-space at this stage. Everything here is working entirely as designed. Don't you think this is a hasty decission? I mean for example, I have spent a good portion of my last week-end scanning down some WH Systems with a friend of mine. We were amased by the fact that from about 25 - 30 of "Unknown" systems only 1 (ONE) - at that time - didn't have a Tower in it. I think at least 60% of the WH systems have already a POS inside. People tend to do that ... and if you do the math you will notice they are ... right. Why ? Siple: a large POS cost how much to run ? 120 - 150 mils/month, right ? Well this is the same amount of ISK you get by making how many encounters in WH ? 3 ? 4 ? (Class 1) Easly findable with the on-board scanner. People don't have a reason to remove thowse POSes and I can bet many won't, evem with low respawn rate. Its easy to mantain and the ISK is enough to support the tower ... Just my oppinion ... Iulian ---------------------------------- EVE Online - Romania www.eve-ro.net
Mr Sean	Posted - 2009.06.03 16:25:00 - [204] Not really sure we have much of a point in this thread anymore, it's painfully obvious that building a POS in a w-space system and sitting in that one system expecting riches to fall into your pockets = not going to work. I never seem to have a hard time finding the w-space sites that I want to clear depending on the size of my fleet, but we keep moving :)
iulixxi Caldari EVE-RO	Posted - 2009.06.03 16:58:00 - [205] Perhaps some are indeed expecting riches but many are not ... like I said, it's easy to maintain/fuel a POS in WH. Think about it ... a POS in WH is better than a POS in hi sec - no need for standing, basicly 24/7 empire rotes, you can make a lot more stuff there than on an empire POS, the payout of plexin, doing encounter sites there covers the cost and some extra so ... people won't leave even if the respawn rate is lower. The only people who will suffer is thowse who are doing WH as they were intended - get in - kill - get out, not the "habitants"... Just a thought ... Iulian ---------------------------------- EVE Online - Romania www.eve-ro.net
Passin Through	Posted - 2009.08.22 18:55:00 - [206] Edited by: Passin Through on 22/08/2009 18:55:51 Originally by: Rawthorm (And for the love of all that is Jovian, please please get rid of most of the grav sites. Why do we need 10 gravs to every 1 other type...) I have no problem with increasing other type of sites but there are people in W-space that actually do mine the high end ores.... this is the only place you CAN mine them consistantly other then 0.0 which is controlled by major Alliances.
Kaiden Exeider Gallente	Posted - 2009.08.23 05:35:00 - [207] Quote: we ignore grav sites as they're simply not worth the cargo space to haul the garbage ore out. Garbage ore, dude!! I don't find Arkonor, Bistot and Crokite asteroids the size of high sec veldspar roids, garbage. My corp is making way way way way more money then we ever did with Tech 2 production. we are gonna try our hand at tech 3 but even then i think we would still be making more. get an orca and a rorqual in there along with a mining team. and mine the hell out of those grav sites, don't pop them as they will respawn daily till the site despawns 3 days later. use the orca to boost and the rorqual to compress and rigged haulers to move that stuff out of there. by my corps calculations, rigged Itty 5s have the best Mass/Cargo capacity ratio of any hauler in the game, so use those. "Garbage ore" hahahaha, thats rich. -K "Commercial" Cynos and Jumpdrives
yourdoingitwrong	Posted - 2009.08.23 09:09:00 - [208] Edited by: yourdoingitwrong on 23/08/2009 09:09:38 more carebear whinging what a suprise. adapt or get out and go play WoW again. Ever thought of splitting your corp and living in more than one wormhole. GASP! that would require work and u want everything handed to you. Stupid bears.


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