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CrestoftheStars
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2009.04.21 11:29:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Vuk Lau CONCLUSION: My initial motive for proposing these changes is to give more intense and more fun gameplay for both supercapital and all other pilots. With changes like this we will see many more supercaps deployed on the frontlines and many more of them killed (killed, not ass****d without the chance to live long enough for a 2nd rep cycle :D ). To be honest, I wouldnt be emo at all if I lost my mothership or titan after hours of fighting with my hull going down to 5% just to be boosted again and so on. Atm a titan pilots combat experience is all but non-intense (besides praying that you will not die cause you were in lag for 1 minute :D ) and a mothership pilots combat experience is...lets say non-existent :D
I hope you recognized my motives and I am happily waiting all constructive feedback
Cheers
... why again would you as a normal pilot WANT more scap's on the battlefield?.
super caps are so insanely overpowered compared to anything else in came it is rediculess, they totally remove any means of balance. and don't give me some bull**** with "they cost a lot of isk", well so do a best officer fitted bs, one of those can get over 30 billions easy (if any one was crazy enough to fit it), but that doesn't mean it is balanced if it had the abillity to take out whole fleets by itself.
caps are overpowered too after the siege and tri modules was introduced.
anything that can't be taken down by 4 well fitted bs's with max skilled pilots and t2 fit, is overpowered to the point that it needs to be rebalanced, since it absolete any other ship type (only a matter of time so people can fly them. you already see now that when the cap fleet are comming almost any other ship then a cap is useless and a wasted of pilot space)..
my solution: remove the bpo's/bpc's for super caps and reimburse the amount they costed to the corp/alliance. and let the last of these roam untill they die.
then remove any siege and tri module bpo and bpc and do the same with these. while removing the modules on market and in hangers and on ships and reimburse the producers with 10% of it's value and the mat it took to build them.
now the balance is way better (although a rebalance of the dreads would be needed to get their dmg up a bit, but keep their tank low) ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
foksieloy
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Posted - 2009.04.21 16:09:00 -
[92]
Sound, and well thought out, suggestion. |
Yaay
Reikoku Reloaded KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.04.21 20:43:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Yaay on 21/04/2009 20:44:56
Originally by: CrestoftheStars all that stuff
By putting super caps on the field in more situations, they're more likely to die. Especially when it comes to titans and why their proliferation is so high. It's very hard to make a mistake in a titan atm, it's more about luck to get kills. People point to shrike for titan losses, but only 2 of his were in any sort of actual combat, the other 2 were based on nano bumping using POS passwords. That's more a flaw of game function. **M-o was also in combat, but was reimburse similar to a MM mothership due to a change in servers for testing reasons by the Devs.
Of the 20 or so titans that have died in game: 4 were logged off. 1 was a spy sellout. 3 were to POS bumping outta shields.
Of the remaining, 2 were total gits warping into fights they never should have been involved in. 1 was due to a terrible cyno and possibly a sellout for a grudge.
Out of the 20 or so killed, maybe 10 of those were legit, good kills. 10 titans in 2.5 years of game play lost to legitimate fights.
These proposals are geared towards making the ships more vulnerable while giving them a different role than just damage. For the Titans, it's ment to remove their ability to 1 or 2 volley fleets for a more tactical role and more risk.
The only real overpowering problem with capitals right now is the remote repping abilities of carriers and how it's been implimented. I would personally like to see it removed or allowed only in triage or not at all. I mean, why do we even have a logistics ship in game if carriers are used far more often and far more practically in most situations.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Jaina Proudmoar
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.04.21 22:19:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Jaina Proudmoar on 21/04/2009 22:24:48 Arn't Morsus Mihi crapping out Titans up in Tribute atm?
I sense an ulterior motive for wanting to introduce a new Capship type.
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Yaay
Reikoku Reloaded KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.04.22 19:57:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Jaina Proudmoar Edited by: Jaina Proudmoar on 21/04/2009 22:24:48 Arn't Morsus Mihi crapping out Titans up in Tribute atm?
I sense an ulterior motive for wanting to introduce a new Capship type.
He posted on his own boards to get the thread recognition... this is not a MOrsus Mihi issue, it's a game issue for those involved in 0.0. Hence the reason that b/t the 3 main threads that this one entails, there is goon, aaa, bob, nc, and other support. All of 0.0 know how borked supercaps are. But since you're so naive with your reply, it can only lead me to....
Vuk, I'm putting my app in for MM tomorrow if you'll have me sweetie.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Gaogan
Gallente Solar Storm Sev3rance
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Posted - 2009.04.22 20:04:00 -
[96]
The amount of idiocy here is so staggering I hardly know where to begin.
Originally by: CrestoftheStars
... why again would you as a normal pilot WANT more scap's on the battlefield?.
super caps are so insanely overpowered compared to anything else in came it is rediculess, they totally remove any means of balance. and don't give me some bull**** with "they cost a lot of isk", well so do a best officer fitted bs, one of those can get over 30 billions easy (if any one was crazy enough to fit it), but that doesn't mean it is balanced if it had the abillity to take out whole fleets by itself.
A mothership can not take out 30 other ships. Even a lone titan will loose to 30 bs if they are set up properly.
Originally by: CrestoftheStars caps are overpowered too after the siege and tri modules was introduced.
Umm, no? Siege was always there and is the only way that dreads become at all useful. Out of siege you are better off in a bs. The only time triage is used is for repping up pos guns. It isn't used anywhere else because the penalties ( can't be remote repped, can't move, loose fighters ) are too steep, not to mention burns stront.
Originally by: CrestoftheStars anything that can't be taken down by 4 well fitted bs's with max skilled pilots and t2 fit, is overpowered to the point that it needs to be rebalanced, since it absolete any other ship type (only a matter of time so people can fly them. you already see now that when the cap fleet are comming almost any other ship then a cap is useless and a wasted of pilot space)..
WAAAaaaaahhhh! That's like crying that it isn't fair that 4 t1 frigs can't kill a maurauder. Of course it's fair. Ohh, and a dozen bs can easily take down a mothership if set up right.
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Gaogan
Gallente Solar Storm Sev3rance
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Posted - 2009.04.22 20:12:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Yaay
The only real overpowering problem with capitals right now is the remote repping abilities of carriers and how it's been implimented. I would personally like to see it removed or allowed only in triage or not at all. I mean, why do we even have a logistics ship in game if carriers are used far more often and far more practically in most situations.
Remote repping on carriers is not any more overpowered than on any other ship. You have logistics ships for the same reason you still have dicters when we have hics. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages. Carriers might rep more, but they require more skills, are far more expensive, less manuverable, and can't use conventional stargates to get around, which prevents them from entering cyno jammed systems entirely.
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Bobbeh
Minmatar Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.04.22 23:52:00 -
[98]
No Offense Crest.... BUT
You obviously arent a capital ship pilot. If im in a battleship gang, more than usual i would rather have a team of logistics with me than a couple carriers. Reasons: Logistics are Faster They Lock Quicker Can Follow the Fleet through Gates They can warp out or avoid if Primaried alot quicker. Generally Logistics pilots know what they are doing, cant say the same for all carrier pilots running in a logistics role.
Carriers are great when supporting other capitals. assigning fighters, Repping at a pos when friendies warp in. But other than that They are pretty useless against a well fc'd BS fleet. Secondly A dread without siege is useless their tracking is ****ty, their locking time is horrible, their tanks are much worse than a carrier, The size of sig radius they have to hit as a target is sooo large. Anyone that ever said BS's and smaller dont have a position in a fleet is purely and utterly wrong. Supercaps without cap support are lost, and Caps without Support are Lost. its easy to overwhelm a cap fleet with a well fc'd Support and BS gang. They are all integral parts of an alliances over all fleet mechanic.
What Vuk is trying to do is make the highest end of the ships (by highest end i mean size, value) more useful to the general fleet mechanics of the game. this way he is hoping to see them more commonly in battle. because right now If your in a mom your an instant primary. If your in a titan your only job is warp in dd and get safe, thats it sounds exciting doesnt it. So dont bash someones ideas that are going to make the game better and give a class of ships that is not used to its full potential an actual position in the fleet.
Vuks got my support
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Typhado3
Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.
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Posted - 2009.04.23 00:40:00 -
[99]
seems good. a hp boost could do some nice things for them. anti capitals and ddd with different effects also seem like good ideas
ccp fix mining agent missions % pls |
Yaay
Reikoku Reloaded KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.04.23 00:50:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Gaogan
Originally by: Yaay
The only real overpowering problem with capitals right now is the remote repping abilities of carriers and how it's been implimented. I would personally like to see it removed or allowed only in triage or not at all. I mean, why do we even have a logistics ship in game if carriers are used far more often and far more practically in most situations.
Remote repping on carriers is not any more overpowered than on any other ship. You have logistics ships for the same reason you still have dicters when we have hics. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages. Carriers might rep more, but they require more skills, are far more expensive, less manuverable, and can't use conventional stargates to get around, which prevents them from entering cyno jammed systems entirely.
The difference between a carrier and any other RR platform is about 500k eft, 1800 more repair per 5 sec cycle, 76 eccm strength, and 40km more range than a bs group. Carriers also have considerable offensive power projection, compared to none for logistics. Yes there's a problem with that when out of triage.
When a carrier group exceeds 10, especially in a cyno jammed system, baring a vastly larger enemy fleet or a capital hot drop(not in jammed systems), you might as well not even take the fight. Yes there are lemming groups that can manage to fail, most won't. It's got nothing to do with abilities of carriers, it has to do with the power of their remote rep platforms.
Carriers are offensive projectors and hubs for resupplying ships. They are not logistics. They only reason they were ever given repair abilites was because POS repairing was even more dull than POS shooting, so it despirately need to be reduced in time.
Carriers were originally put in game with 30-50k hps in tank platform with bonuses in gang. They're now 170 to 200k hp in tank and vastly more proliferated in numbers.
I'd rather have motherships retain the ability to repair out of triage while carriers are unable than to keep the current structure. It would add another level of uniqueness to Moms while removing the joke that is carriers atm. Carrier swarming just kills conventional combat and forces capital warfare even more. By fun factor, conventional fleet warfare is far superior to capital warfare any day.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
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Nooto
Panta-Rhei Guardian Federation
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Posted - 2009.04.23 15:55:00 -
[101]
oh hell yes. thanx vuk for finaly proposing some really really useful changes. please please dont let this topic fall asleep and keep up the good work! BEWARE!!!
All text above this sig represents my personal opinion. This in no way reflects the views of my corporation or alliance |
Yaay
Reikoku Reloaded KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.04.23 19:42:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Nooto oh hell yes. thanx vuk for finaly proposing some really really useful changes. please please dont let this topic fall asleep and keep up the good work!
Always a brides maid never a bride I don't know a better phrase to catch the moment....
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
The ChurchWarden
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Posted - 2009.04.23 22:29:00 -
[103]
Good ideas
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Soleil Fournier
AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.04.23 23:49:00 -
[104]
Edited by: Soleil Fournier on 23/04/2009 23:51:54
Originally by: Yaay
Carriers are offensive projectors and hubs for resupplying ships. They are not logistics. They only reason they were ever given repair abilites was because POS repairing was even more dull than POS shooting, so it despirately need to be reduced in time.
As a Nyx pilot, I wholehartedly agree with this statement, which is why I'm uneasy about the proposed changes and leave my own below. (I'll be sticking to the mothership side of these changes for my analysis)
Necessary changes in priority to moms:
1) Boost Survivability 2) Boost usefullness to fleet 3) Improve maintenance/corp hanger space, add fuel bay
1) survivability
I agree that moms need a huge boost to HP and armor repping ability (as do titans)- they are WAY too easy to kill, which is a major reason why they arn't wanted in fleets.
2) Usefullness to fleet
They're primary role is, as stated, a combination of offensive firepower against support fleets and being used as a forword resupply platform for ships/ammo/fuel/etc.
I fully disagree that mom primary roles should be gi-normous "hospital" ships (aka capital logistics ships w/ fighters). The "bubble heal" is a nice idea, but that's more suited to a ship who's primary role is a hospital ship. I don't think that RR should be allowed to be used outside of triage mode, but triage mode needs to work like seige mode and boost defenses if it's to see any use outside of repping pos'.
On the other hand, I do like the POS effect mentioned earlier, that allows the mom to put up a pos bubble and protect the fleet, That idea has some major potential if implemented properly.
I like the projected ECM effect, but it's effect is simply not enough. It needs to be boosted.
Clone Vat bays need to be changed so that the mom isn't a sitting duck when it's activated. I think Clone Vats help fulfill that "forword resupply platform" role, but they're currently worthless in their current state.
3) Maintenance bay, corp hanger, fuel bay
I think that like blackops, all capital ships should have a seperate fuel bay, so that corporate hangers and cargo isn't filled by the necessary fuel requirements. This aids in the motherships role because that means more room for ammo and modules to help the fleet refit.
Moms also need huge boosts to their maintenance bays to resupply a BS fleet that just lost all it's ships. Moms should be able to carry 20 BS'.
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Korrakas
Legion of Ascension Beyond Ascension
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Posted - 2009.04.24 00:02:00 -
[105]
can i please design the olympians names/ descriptions, I have the perfect names etc cooked up straight from my homelands mythology (greece)
Originally by: CCP Mitnal I don't have holidays. I don't leave the forums unattended. I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
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Lilla Kharn
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Posted - 2009.04.24 05:08:00 -
[106]
I endorse this product and/or service. ------------------------------- "Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato |
Vuk Lau
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.24 09:37:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Korrakas can i please design the olympians names/ descriptions, I have the perfect names etc cooked up straight from my homelands mythology (greece)
Feel free but do it fast :D cause I raised this issue for tomorrow's meeting (last one of CSM 2.0)
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Bobbeh
Minmatar Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.04.25 02:20:00 -
[108]
Best of luck Vuk Kick their asses and get it done for all of us super cap pilots out here
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Silent Sins
Deliciously Vicious
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Posted - 2009.04.25 03:42:00 -
[109]
****ing rights supported. good on you. ------------------------------ ------------------------------
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YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2009.04.25 06:42:00 -
[110]
Black Sun Empire |
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Cynthera Noir
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Posted - 2009.04.25 11:22:00 -
[111]
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xOmGx
Warriors tribe Red Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.25 11:30:00 -
[112]
Agree we need reworked Titan's and Mothership's Bonusses/roles
But i'm not agree with topic starter
CCP say titan should be a logistic ship, i say i'ts bull**** coz titan should be a Flagship with heavy defence and firepower capabilities. No Pain - No Gain |
Yaay
Reikoku Reloaded KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.04.25 13:40:00 -
[113]
Originally by: xOmGx Agree we need reworked Titan's and Mothership's Bonusses/roles
But i'm not agree with topic starter
CCP say titan should be a logistic ship, i say i'ts bull**** coz titan should be a Flagship with heavy defence and firepower capabilities.
The proposed changes keep titans with immense firepower and usefulness. They just don't allow them to be the 1 shot killers they are now.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Arjen1705
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Posted - 2009.04.27 17:44:00 -
[114]
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Virtuozzo
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.04.29 00:28:00 -
[115]
Vuk,
I'm in perfect agreement with the part on motherships, without a dedicated role for the shiptype the use of them is neither warranted nor practical.
Titans, the more that show up in game and the longer the debate continues I find myself wondering on whether they really are so bad or whether the bulk of the negativity comes from historic drama and damage. Especially since the majority of titan pilots go awol once they finish building the ship or finishing the isk race to buy it ...
I agree that for the class of ships they are they are very close to glass cannons, then again .. considering their intended purpose that does fit with risk versus reward. If you want to take a big (huge) shot at a fleet you have to accept that if you take that shot you have to prep it as best as possible ... or loose the ship in around 30-40 seconds.
The doomsday itself has not been the magic red button in 0.0 for a long, long time now, in spite of there being a lot more titans now then ever before.
Thing is, that making sure a DD is effective takes quite a bit of preparation and some very solid teamwork. Without that it is merely a psychological deterrant, something which any pro team can easily shake off and/or work around. At the same time it is amazingly easy to avoid a DD, as long as the fleet is on the ball and is working together smoothly. Only the best possible baiting and trapping can really make a DD effective, and given how much work (and still .. risk) goes into that it strikes me as not being out of the ordinary for risk versus reward.
I've flown titans, I've been in fleets getting titans thrown at them like silly, I've been in fleets that killed titans. I've been in "let's sit and eat up DD so we can see if we can trap titan" situations. Aside of the notion that a ship of such a size should be a monster in terms of hitpoints I can't say it's been much drama. Back in the days of remote doomsdays ... now that was something else :P
0.0 and all its toys are part of what CCP describes as "endgame content", a "level" where the rewards can be huge, where the teamwork goes above all and where the risks reflect both the potential in reward and the intrinsic requirement of teamwork. Even the idea of losing an entire fleet in a minute does not strike me as being out of place, considering the rewards and teamwork elements - if organisations are smart - provide for ample means and opportunity to replace that fleet. Both in terms of ISK and assets, typically within minutes.
What I do think is that here is perhaps a niche found for the logistical element of supplies and replacements, in the light of supercapitals. Then again, considering how hard it is to really wipe out a fleet maybe not.
Either way, I am sure it is all a matter of perception and personal experience, given how this week alone quite a number of titans and motherships went down contrasting sharply with the related subcapital losses perhaps we are making too much of the issue.
Still there is one thing which really nags me in the back of my mind, which is the most sensible approach on addressing the topic of the doomsday itself, the "chance/heat/module/damage" suggestion that was provided. While it did at first strike me as a very common sense idea, it is also pretty visible that it has zero consideration for the really fundamental problem which lies at the basis of all this .. human behaviour. Reduce the effectiveness of something which still carries more weight then anything else and human beings .... overcompensate by bringing more of it, and then doing it again with again more of the same.
Until some concept is put together which takes titans out of that negative spiral of human sheep behaviour, no sensible solution will be found, and that leaves at best only room for kneejerking type of fixes (EVE has had its share of those ....).
≡v≡
Please resize sig to a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal
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Shaleen
Beach Boys BeachBoys
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Posted - 2009.04.29 06:20:00 -
[116]
Few others also started the same topic:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1048545
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1014819
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1023003
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1048127
It just confirms how badly we need those changes
Owing to lack of Eve-related content, signature removed. If you would like to discuss this, please mail [email protected] - Mitnal |
Yaay
Reikoku Reloaded KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.04.29 14:25:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Virtuozzo Vuk,
Still there is one thing which really nags me in the back of my mind, which is the most sensible approach on addressing the topic of the doomsday itself, the "chance/heat/module/damage" suggestion that was provided. While it did at first strike me as a very common sense idea, it is also pretty visible that it has zero consideration for the really fundamental problem which lies at the basis of all this .. human behaviour. Reduce the effectiveness of something which still carries more weight then anything else and human beings .... overcompensate by bringing more of it, and then doing it again with again more of the same.
Until some concept is put together which takes titans out of that negative spiral of human sheep behaviour, no sensible solution will be found, and that leaves at best only room for kneejerking type of fixes (EVE has had its share of those ....).
To counter that, there was an added 20sec warp scramble which affects the titan too. Yes more people will bring titans, but that means more titans are exposed. The problem atm is exposure levels and the risk of said exposure. I say bring it on.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Lallante
Reikoku Reloaded KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.04.29 14:36:00 -
[118]
Edited by: Lallante on 29/04/2009 14:36:07 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1061059
My suggestion there. Its better.
Lall - THE Vocal Minority - Reikoku
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Virtuozzo
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.04.30 10:45:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Yaay To counter that, there was an added 20sec warp scramble which affects the titan too. Yes more people will bring titans, but that means more titans are exposed. The problem atm is exposure levels and the risk of said exposure. I say bring it on.
I read that, but that is not exactly a countermechanism. Instead it supports the human behaviour twist, even reinforces it. An FC has 4 titans ready to throw on the field for the usual triple DD + 1 standby. Since they are going to have added time on the field, he is going to make sure he not only has a dedicated carrier support group ready but also a second titan group .. just to be absolutely sure he can control the field and what comes on it. Should his targets escape a DD, or have a trap ready, or even just be quick in replacing ships from a pos, he will strive to control the situation.
Ergo, again we are back to being sheep. Truth be told DD's and Titans are not the problem, it's us flocking them which is the problem. If we want to work around that, we should look into not making it worth bringing more then a given ratio to a field (think of a game design element which kinda works like the nodes in eve when you DD so much the thing comes crashing down :P)
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SickSeven
The Undead Righteous Knights
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Posted - 2009.04.30 11:45:00 -
[120]
I love the MOM changes.
For Titans I say boost their defensive ability and just let them fit siege modules instead of DD. Afterall what the hell is the point of XL weapons without siege modules? absolutely none, BS weapons do more damage. Maybe CCP thought about fitting Titans with siege mods and then scrapped it. why else would they allow for XL weapons to be fitted? |
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