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Vuk Lau
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 18:50:00 -
[1]
Finally I gathered all my senses to finish this document. For the last year I was thinking about all the things which suck when it comes to supercaps I always knew the basics of what I would change, but was never completely happy with solutions I had on my mind. Also the good part of the last few months I spent on numbers, doing calcs and all that stuff to try to balance everything as best as possible but I found out that I suck at balancing :D, almost the same as CCP :D so I will leave the final touch to them, if they decide to consider ideas I gathered and posted here.
DISCLAIMER: I talked with A LOT of supercap pilots in the last year or so, and I will try to mention everyone I took some good ideas from, but please dont mind me if I forget someone.
Anyway, lets go. I am personally the owner of one mothership class ship - Nyx and owner of a titan class ship - Ragnarok. While I didnt play much lately on both of the accounts, the reason for not using the titan much is that I didnt have time and tbh the will to fly it lately, but when it comes to Nyx for the last 6+ months I am logging in only to change the skills.
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Vuk Lau
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 18:50:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Vuk Lau on 17/04/2009 18:50:27 I will 1st try to generalize problems for both titans and moms and then I will continue with each specifically. Main problem:
- They die so easily its not even funny.
Solutions: Massive boost of HP and Supercap reps
1st solution and IMHO the „MUST“ one is a massive boost of base HP of both moms and titans. If we take a quick glance at the current numbers (unfitted just as a rough comparison) Thanatos (carrier) has 591k EHP, Moros (dreadnought) has 890k EHP, Nyx (mothership) 1250k EHP and Erebus (titan) 1575k EHP. If we take quick relation between carrier and mom we have price ratio of 1:20 and EHP ratio of 1:2.1, and dreadnaught and titan ratio is 1:32 price wise compared to 1:1.76 EHP ratio. Even with EHP boost of 10 times price ratio and EHP ratio wouldnt be the same. 2nd solution is the introduction of supercapital armor reps/shield boosters. I wouldnt boost them too much compared to regular capital ones, mainly because the intention of supercaps is not to be solomobiles. With all changes I will propose here, one thing must be untouched and that is – if you deploy your supercap solo, you need to die :D
3rd solution I was proposed which I dont like is the role bonus of increased armor/shield resistances. It would be too much IMHO, because it simply becomes a multiplier to spider tanking which is already powerful.
4th solution is decreasing of sig radius to prevent dreadnaught weapons inflicting full damage except when a supercapital ship is not moving. Before late 2007 this is how it was until supercapital sigradiuses were increased by approximately ten times (to make them more probeable). Because supercaps can’t be webbed ganking them with seiged dreadnaughts was challenging, and involved tactical skill both on the part of the dread FC in positioning his dreads, and the supercapital pilot in trying to maneuver to reduce the damage. The titan which died before this change was Shrike in 46DP in a long battle involving sieged dreadnaughts missing a lot and hundreds of other ships. Soon after the change Thulsa Doom was ganked quickly in a safespot by sieged dreads before any exciting battle could get underway. The real advantage however is for motherships because they'd become viable again in capital battles.
Other boosts of supercap ships related to both motherships and titans. 1st – Increased size of Ship Maintenance bay 2nd – Increased size of Corporate hangars 3rd – Buffing/reworking clone vat bays
Now I will spend just a few moments on one thing many people proposed but in different variants. Its about turning supercaps into mobile/deployable/permanent structures. Honestly I am totally against this, and I am not even sure how it would be implemented code wise. However I am open for any discussion about that idea as well.
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Vuk Lau
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 18:51:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Vuk Lau on 17/04/2009 18:52:10 Motherships
Now I will concentrate on motherships exclusively. There were many proposals about giving motherships higher damage but somehow I dont feel that dealing damage should be the role of motherships. With increased static and active tank, increased corp hangars and ship bays, they are a step above carriers but still not that much to justify price difference. One thing motherships have and I personally adore is the remote ECM burst. I would slightly boost it and allow it to break the lock of sieged dreads as well. There are some nice proposals for boosting moms as drone boats by EdFromHumanResources: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1023003
As I said I am not really fond of adding DPS to the ship, but boosting their drones in other ways should be an option f.e. as mentioned here: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1023003&page=2#40
or in worst case, t2 fighters should be introduced through invention, or in combination with wormhole goodies for the roleplaying sake.
Another of the really cool ideas I heard is to have an area of effect healing module. With that module fitted an activate mom should have certain penalties like inability to deploy drones or fighters and f.e. decreased cap recharge so it needs remote cap transfer to stay operational, then it would heal armor and/or shield of all ships in 10km area around (could be decreased initially with option of introducing the skill for range) by launching a „nanobot swarm“/„shield plasma cloud“ from the module.
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Vuk Lau
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 18:53:00 -
[4]
Titans
My main dilemma here was in which direction titan class ships should go. Even with the initial nerfing of doomsday devices, they are still way too powerful, and with increasing numbers of titans around, they are seriously threatening to destroy the phenomena of fleet fights. Anyway as mentioned, I had 2 directions, nerfing Doomsday or removing it. When I say removing doomsday, it would kill the role of the titan as it is now (if we exclude jumpportaling) so they would need another role, and the only viable one would be to introduce them as capital killer ships as they already have bonuses on their weapons. When it comes to nerfing doomsdays I will be honest and say I didnt have any idea what to do beside decreasing the damage inflicted, until Yaay posted a great proposal, especially the aspect of Doomsdays doing heat damage to modules:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1014819
Originally by: Yaay the revameped DD idea:
ROF 20 min:
20% chance to cause 40 heat damage (lvl 5) 10k Maxed (lvl 5) racial damage 15,000 Energy Neutralized (lvl 5 skill) Warp Stasis, 20 second delay to affected ships warp abilities (including titan)
I would keep the current ROF, and would decrease the amount of energy neutralized, but anyway the idea is excellent. Hats off. This would basically solve the problems with doomsdays atm. They can’t singlehandedly win a battle with proposed changes and even with multiple doomsdays fired a hostile fleet will be crippled, but alive and you WILL need your support fleet to finish it (or not) :D
2nd thing which is bothering me from day one is damn range of Jump Portal Generator. For the love of God increase it to 5000m at least.
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Vuk Lau
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 18:54:00 -
[5]
Olympians - !!11!1!!
While considering the option of removing doomsday devices, as mentioned above the only viable solution for me was giving them the role of capital killer ships. Finally I asked myself if maybe its time for another class of supercap ships. My fellow alliance mate Danny Centurai christened them as „Olympians“. (If we continue using Greek mythology, The Olympians are a group of 12 gods who ruled after the overthow of the Titans, so its a really nifty name for the new class.)
Anyway, as we witnessed massive 100+ vs 100+ capital fights maybe New Eden is ready for a supercap whose sole purpose is blowing up capital ships. They should be able to inflict massive amounts of damage to the capital size ships. To counter them being too powerful they need to be „massively“ nerfed from the other side. To effectively siege one Olympian you will need to support it with constant remote cap transferring (someone invited motherships to the party) because an Olympian itself cant sustain the massive cap consumption of its „siege module“. Their active tank due to low cap will be also nonexistent so you would need carriers, and motherships if you want to make sure 5 rooks/falcons/scorps doesnt shutdown your Olympian’s spider tank. Basically if you want to deploy Oly you need to deploy your moms, or its just one giant sitting duck.
When it comes to production costs of Olympian initially I wanted to put it between moms and titans (around 20-25 bil figure) but with huge amounts of isk floating around I am thinking maybe to make them more expensive than titans. From the other side it would totally waste any chance for some „smaller entities“ to get ahold of them. Maybe something like an increased price but decreased production time, compared to titans. Anyway with the initial idea I am sure that others (hello Yaay) will come up with more positive feedback.
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Vuk Lau
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 18:54:00 -
[6]
CONCLUSION: My initial motive for proposing these changes is to give more intense and more fun gameplay for both supercapital and all other pilots. With changes like this we will see many more supercaps deployed on the frontlines and many more of them killed (killed, not ass****d without the chance to live long enough for a 2nd rep cycle :D ). To be honest, I wouldnt be emo at all if I lost my mothership or titan after hours of fighting with my hull going down to 5% just to be boosted again and so on. Atm a titan pilots combat experience is all but non-intense (besides praying that you will not die cause you were in lag for 1 minute :D ) and a mothership pilots combat experience is...lets say non-existent :D
I hope you recognized my motives and I am happily waiting all constructive feedback
Cheers
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Vuk Lau
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 18:55:00 -
[7]
I edited all the posts from some most obvious grammar and spelling mistakes :D
Anyway I am supporting the op
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Drake Draconis
Shadow Cadre Worlds End Consortium
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Posted - 2009.04.17 18:59:00 -
[8]
*opens briefcase* /supported ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com =========================
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Zastrow J
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:10:00 -
[9]
i like it
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Hell Commander
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:12:00 -
[10]
no
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Bos Tess69
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:12:00 -
[11]
looks like a well thought out a pretty solid idea, the olympian idea works, or allow titans to fit a seige module for killing caps, and give them a supercap repper, this gives a expensive ship some real hours in the feild as it hammers into dreads with heavy hitting vollys, whilst risking itself greatly, but more of a tank is definatly needed in this area.
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Melaki
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:13:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Melaki on 17/04/2009 19:13:41 total support
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Zylexx
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:16:00 -
[13]
I dig it
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SUMZER0
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Balance of Judgment
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:19:00 -
[14]
Well thought out.
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Andrew IFA
Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:22:00 -
[15]
good ideas
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Mazhius
New Horizon Technologies
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:26:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Mazhius on 17/04/2009 19:25:59 aproved
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Krapshtukas
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:28:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Krapshtukas on 17/04/2009 19:27:57 lets change it
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KosmikZA
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:28:00 -
[18]
Seems good. Nice ideas
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Redplayer X
Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:29:00 -
[19]
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Tao Min
Tiger Research Inc.
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:29:00 -
[20]
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Dak Torin
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:30:00 -
[21]
lets fix it and i'll get into one of those :) |
icekold killa
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:32:00 -
[22]
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Blazde
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:36:00 -
[23]
Loving these proposals because they're obviously grounded in tons of actual supercap experience, plus good research of existing proposals and aren't whacky left-field dreams (mobile stations etc..). Mostly just simple tweaks to existing stats. With predictable outcomes. For sound reasons. This was desperately needed over 18 months ago so just getting it fixed properly asap should be priority.
The details of the Olympian idea I'm not totally sold on but there is definetely room for another supercap class with a super-dread type role. Fixing the existing supercaps should be priority of course, after that I'm happy to see a new class that'll be totally broken for the next two years _
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RazorCRO
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:37:00 -
[24]
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Nathan Yates
Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:41:00 -
[25]
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Batolemaeus
Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:41:00 -
[26]
----------------------------------------------
Originally by: CCP Prism X In New Eden, EVE wins you.
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Number 51X
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:46:00 -
[27]
I suport the idea
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Teralya
Macabre Votum Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 20:01:00 -
[28]
I fully approve of this product ------------------
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Yaay
Reikoku Reloaded KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.04.17 20:05:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Vuk Lau
3rd solution I was proposed which I dont like is the role bonus of increased armor/shield resistances. It would be too much IMHO, because it simply becomes a multiplier to spider tanking which is already powerful.
That's a problem of Remote repairing out of triage for carriers. Simply put, they should be allowed to do any advanced remote repairs outside of triage... IE capital RR.
Logistics ships are the repair platforms of the game... and honestly, i'd rather they have a form of triage to speed up POS repairs rather than give carriers anything of the sort that they have now.
Capital RR are flawed in use and in range. They should have a much smaller range, a much smaller HP repair, but they were introduced at a time when POS repairing was crap, and were justified as such. Now we get the **** ass turtle tanking as a result.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Yaay
Reikoku Reloaded KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.04.17 20:15:00 -
[30]
The changes as a whole i do support, the idea of anti mobile platform i'm against. There is a relatively simple coding update using current game mechanics to do the limited mobile plaform base that's needed, including docking ships, repairing, using the corp h anger bay, refitting, etc.... It's just removing it from an external feature to one linked to docking. Docking can be as simple as a graphic of "view ships" while having these features available in their current form (IE fitting window with carriers)
When docked, you just watch said ship move around space, going wherever it goes. Logging requires you to be out of the ship, or risk jettison in unknown space. Yest Disconnects are a problem, but they're already a problem in game for so many reasons far worse than this. It's not a flaw of the mechanics of the ships, it's a flaw of the internet to have instability of connection.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
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Bloodhands
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 20:33:00 -
[31]
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Meisje
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 20:36:00 -
[32]
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Orree
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 20:39:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Orree on 17/04/2009 20:39:55 There are some very interesting ideas contained in the OP(s) and I agree that the overall issue of super capitals needs to be explored in a major way. Even though I can fly an Avatar, I have little interest in doing so as the the class of titans stands now.
The proliferation of titans is something that it's probably too late to explore, but I believe a major problem with the ship class is simply the number of them that exist. TBH, I'd rather they had never been introduced at all. As they obviously have been, the need a serious re-working. I think the ideas put forth herein are a very good basis for moving forward along this line.
"How much easier it is to be critical than to be correct." ---Benjamin Disraeli |
TimGascoigne
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 20:58:00 -
[34]
supported in principle however you don't need an Olympian. what you need to do is remove the Domesday and install the Olympian as a modular replacement. That way instead of having a super capital smart bomb you have a directional target based weapon. Think of it as a hail of bullets/laser charg or hybrid charges that one shots carriers and dreadnoughts.
a slow rate of fire, stupidly high volly damage and overall DPS fitting of a super capital.
It is also a great way for Titans to due against each other.
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Jainia Soltella
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Posted - 2009.04.17 21:09:00 -
[35]
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Dezolf
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 21:20:00 -
[36]
I like the idea of Olympians, caps are spammed. |
Cpt Iwan
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 21:32:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Cpt Iwan on 17/04/2009 21:32:07 Yes
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Kharriga
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 22:28:00 -
[38]
i like the ideas. and i agree on the EHP problem of supercaps. -
"I'm scissors. Paper is fine. Nerf rock!"
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Hinata
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Posted - 2009.04.17 22:39:00 -
[39]
Supported, awesome idea's give me a reason to put my alt into a supercap
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
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Posted - 2009.04.17 23:00:00 -
[40]
Nothing to argue about with the OP that I can see.
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Herschel Yamamoto
Bloodmoney Incorporated
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Posted - 2009.04.17 23:45:00 -
[41]
So the proposal is for both classes to get vastly more HP, somewhat better reppers, smaller sig radii, bigger hangars, and clone bays that actually work properly. Moms would get cool new drone types and AoE healing, titans would switch to EW doomsdays, and there'd be a new anti-capital supercap introduced.
I like some parts, not so much a fan of others. More HP I'm completely in favour of. Supercapital reppers just seem an unnecessary complication - you want them to be gang-dependent, let them live or die by their gang's ability to RR. Smaller sigs are unflavourful, but they do the right thing mechanically, so I'll support them. Bigger hangars and better cloning facilities are both good ideas. New fighters might be a plan, but I'd have to see specifics. AoE healing seems kind of wrong to me - I prefer the proposal to let triaged moms RR sieged dreads(but NOT each other) if you're going to give them a buff to their RR abilities. EW doomsdays I've long been in favour of, though Yaay's proposal is less interesting than other variants I've seen. As for the Olympian, it sounds somewhat interesting, but ultimately unnecessary. It feels like you're just creating a dread with bigger numbers. If we're going to add a new capital class, never mind a supercapital class, I want it to do something other than just oodles of DPS.
I'll support this, because I think you're on the right track, but there are parts I'm not really a fan of. ----- Bloodmoney Incorporated is recruiting! |
Killer2
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.18 00:01:00 -
[42]
I like it. |
Cerlestes
Jagdkommando RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.18 00:35:00 -
[43]
I f*cking love the idea of those Olympians :)
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Doltish
The Arrow Project
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Posted - 2009.04.18 01:27:00 -
[44]
Yes.
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JasonKuehn
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.18 01:48:00 -
[45]
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Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
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Posted - 2009.04.18 01:58:00 -
[46]
all supported... makes me want to fly a capital for a change
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DarkRavin
hirr Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.18 02:13:00 -
[47]
_______________________________________________
Some people are alive only because it's illegal to kill them. |
Centauris
Thundercats RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.18 02:15:00 -
[48]
Very nice and well thought out ideas vuk.
I want a rattlesnake though if you want RZR's support
TC4LIFE I Am The LOL Generation |
Llynia
Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.18 02:23:00 -
[49]
¬Llynia |
Ur kahanu
Shiva Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.18 05:08:00 -
[50]
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Bobbeh
Minmatar Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.04.18 05:23:00 -
[51]
In Full agreeance with Vuk. Though i did here somewhere the idea of giving a mom a temp... blast shield, that could extend around a fleet like a pos shield with a limited ehp. This shield could defend a fleet from a titan, like a mom level triage. If i remember it correctly, It would immobilizes the mothership completely and give it reps bonus's to hp but shorten the range. A shield would open around the mothership that ships could travel through at a reduced velocity, they would be immune to targetting or being targetted (as a pos shield is). The counter to the titan DD, effectively shielding those units that are near the mom when the titan deploys, now one restriction is how does one know when to deploy and if one does will a titan dd? I cant remember if they talked about this in their post.
Anyway that was something interesting that i read that i thought could possibly work. Make mom's Useful outside of pos decorations and epeen measurements.... And docking would be nice cause i agree they are just as big as a pheonix and arent as tall as a naglfar so why dont they fit!
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Matke47
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Posted - 2009.04.18 07:08:00 -
[52]
Did i mention i love u vuk ?
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Shadow Lotus
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.18 07:38:00 -
[53]
Because i will get hit with a stick again if i don't support this idea.
Srsly, thumbs up for this
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Scatim Helicon
GoonFleet GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.18 08:57:00 -
[54]
Not completely in agreement about every part of this, but there's more good than bad, so supported
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QuarteDeLouis
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Posted - 2009.04.18 09:03:00 -
[55]
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bolo skymaster
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Posted - 2009.04.18 10:45:00 -
[56]
I dont like the idear of a new supercap ship. I dont think this is the solution.
Rather fix the existing and perhaps is the time to get T2 cap modules?? i agree with the rest of it.
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Doctor Penguin
Amarr Celestial Ascension Tenth Legion
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Posted - 2009.04.18 11:05:00 -
[57]
Explain to me the point of a Titan if it doesn't make newbies go "Holy ****! A Titan!"
A weaker Doomsday would remove this reaction. ________________________________________________
http://eve.drome.nl/CaodCleaner/ Help make CAOD readable. |
Quartex
Octavian Vanguard RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.18 11:13:00 -
[58]
Rough Principles I'd go with;
-Any changes should not create Super Mission/Rat ships and any change should be checked against this risk. -Caps and Supercaps should be PvP and not PVE, at the very least this keeps ISK moving in the right direction in the Eve economy. -Caps and Supercaps should encourage teamplay and playstyle/gameplay development Ideas and feedback on suggestions so far;
I like the emphasis on Ewar, as the main weapon of a Titan, with all ship systems being fried (heat damage) with an area effect weapon and perhaps a focussed fire weapon designed to nail Cap ship systems (heat damage), making them easier to kill by supporting ships. Also, an area effect Warp scambler module for Titan use, to pin an enemy Fleet. Definitely support the bridge radius extension. Also for future development could the Titan create a temporary wormhole to who knows where, as a last resort for it/Fleet.... giving new gameplay opportunity?
Moms should be able to repair Heat damage using perhaps a repair bubble that ships warp to in the intensity of battle, aiming to get back into the battle after completion. A second bubble could do as suggested and act like a POS bubble when on Campaign. Changes to Hangers/Vats/Maintenance bays supported.
Survival time for a Supercap needs to be engineered to be at least 30 minutes, to allow for cta to get help in and around which a big battle could rage. Not sure whether HP increases etc are the way to do this .... I would rather see the need for reliance on a support Fleet (Racial repper Ships) fitted with new Cap repair modules, or treat them like POS' with a re-inforce period to save them. If we have to increase HP's then it should be on Moms. Purpose of Titan should be offence and Moms defence. Super Cap survivability needs to improve but should be through team support not boosting.
If I was going to introduce a new Cap ship it would be an Ewar Cap. This would be paper thin and need a bay filled with repper drones and racial T2 repper ships to survive but would have the ability to take down a POS shield, with a long recharge time. This would remove the need to conduct the dull POS bashing exercises Alliance pilots "enjoy". This ships survivabilty must be extremely high if it's well supported with the right ships/drones.
We are where we are but imo any changes should take us in this direction.
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Nicholai Sanse
Xadex Explorers
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Posted - 2009.04.18 11:14:00 -
[59]
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Kiora Evon
The X-Trading Company RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.18 11:31:00 -
[60]
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Simeon Whiteheaven
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Posted - 2009.04.18 11:35:00 -
[61]
I dont like idea that supercapital get vastly increase in HP, ( maybe 100000 or 200000 HP but not more ). I do like idea about T2 capital modules, that maybe solution .
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IceMen24
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Posted - 2009.04.18 13:25:00 -
[62]
Edited by: IceMen24 on 18/04/2009 13:25:19 good ideas
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Doomed Predator
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.18 13:31:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Doomed Predator on 18/04/2009 13:31:41 Seems nice,especially the new DD not being a field moper by itself but a swift kick in the nuts so that support can finish the job. Maybe increase warp delay to 30 or 40 seconds.
Edit: forgot support The 'Fendahlian Collective' strikes again |
Tamtel Skreej
Oberon Incorporated Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.18 14:03:00 -
[64]
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Vartriiness
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.18 14:07:00 -
[65]
Nice post well thought out.
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Sovereign533
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.04.18 14:19:00 -
[66]
not to bad rly
*Your signature file has been removed for the inclusion of inappropriate language. -- Fallout 3 |
Ozerdin
Decadence. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.18 14:43:00 -
[67]
I like both the idea of the Olympians and the "doomsday modification". |
dinj
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.18 14:56:00 -
[68]
thumbs up
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Jason Edwards
Internet Tough Guy
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Posted - 2009.04.18 15:17:00 -
[69]
IF you recall the first titan. He loggoffski with aggression. Giving them 15mins to kill him. Lets say they boost the hp even more.
Titan pilots are only going to logoffski even more; with primarily more passive setup tanks... ex eanms instead of hardeners.
Quote: 2nd solution is the introduction of supercapital armor reps/shield boosters. I wouldnt boost them too much compared to regular capital ones, mainly because the intention of supercaps is not to be solomobiles. With all changes I will propose here, one thing must be untouched and that is û if you deploy your supercap solo, you need to die :D
Why not just an expensive tech 2 version of the capital rep. Where the cost essentially dictates that supercaps use them. While reg caps can use them... but is silly. Kind of like officer fitting your nidhoggur.
Quote: 3rd solution I was proposed which I dont like is the role bonus of increased armor/shield resistances. It would be too much IMHO, because it simply becomes a multiplier to spider tanking which is already powerful.
kinda what they do already?
Quote: 4th solution is decreasing of sig radius to prevent dreadnaught weapons inflicting full damage except when a supercapital ship is not moving.
This is the funny thing. If you put a hyperion next to a thanatos. The hyperion more or less is the same size if not larger in volume. Yet its sig is much smaller. On the otherhand... pheonix and naglfail already can be speed tanked effectively well. Especially so by supercaps because u cant be webbed.
Quote: Other boosts of supercap ships related to both motherships and titans. 1st û Increased size of Ship Maintenance bay 2nd û Increased size of Corporate hangars
The thing is... back in the day you had uber canned out iteron 5 t2 rigged carriers jumping tons of stuff. So they were kinda kept so low. Now the ship maint bay is so lacking that it's basically a joke.
Quote: 3rd û Buffing/reworking clone vat bays
Heh. ------------------------ To make a megathron from scratch, you must first invent the eve universe. ------------------------ Life sucks and then you get podded. |
lebowskisbrother
Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.18 15:45:00 -
[70]
Although I am rather a fan of the titans being reworked more towards mobile bases, any change is a good change. To increase the survivability of supercaps one could think of a short-term reinforced mode.
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Yaay
Reikoku Reloaded KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.04.18 15:46:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Yaay on 18/04/2009 15:47:49 Edited by: Yaay on 18/04/2009 15:46:32
Originally by: Vuk Lau Titans
My main dilemma here was in which direction titan class ships should go. Even with the initial nerfing of doomsday devices, they are still way too powerful, and with increasing numbers of titans around, they are seriously threatening to destroy the phenomena of fleet fights. Anyway as mentioned, I had 2 directions, nerfing Doomsday or removing it. When I say removing doomsday, it would kill the role of the titan as it is now (if we exclude jumpportaling) so they would need another role, and the only viable one would be to introduce them as capital killer ships as they already have bonuses on their weapons. When it comes to nerfing doomsdays I will be honest and say I didnt have any idea what to do beside decreasing the damage inflicted, until Yaay posted a great proposal, especially the aspect of Doomsdays doing heat damage to modules:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1014819
Originally by: Yaay the revameped DD idea:
ROF 20 min:
20% chance to cause 40 heat damage (lvl 5) 10k Maxed (lvl 5) racial damage 15,000 Energy Neutralized (lvl 5 skill) Warp Stasis, 20 second delay to affected ships warp abilities (including titan)
I would keep the current ROF, and would decrease the amount of energy neutralized, but anyway the idea is excellent. Hats off. This would basically solve the problems with doomsdays atm. They canÆt singlehandedly win a battle with proposed changes and even with multiple doomsdays fired a hostile fleet will be crippled, but alive and you WILL need your support fleet to finish it (or not) :D
2nd thing which is bothering me from day one is damn range of Jump Portal Generator. For the love of God increase it to 5000m at least.
The reason I upped the ROF on the DD in that scenario is due to the titans being more exposed on the field. Lower damange means better chances to tackle, warp disruption means static titans. So as a trade off, they need to have a higher probability of affecting the fleet. Bare in mind, the repeated use of a DD won't Necessarily save them like it currently can. It does however give them more of an advantage over a fleet than a longer ROF would.
Titans are meant to give smaller fleets more opportunities to fight back, 1 x an hr ROF is detracting from that goal.
The idea is Titan comes in, DD... fleet comes in immediately behind, starts mopping up tacklers while the enemy fleet recoups, Titan hopefully escapes, if not, countdown beings til it runs another DD. Smaller fleet is now dealing with a less effective fleet due to heat damage and the minor racial damage while trying to salvage the titan use. Smaller fleet is also receiving the benefits of Titan gang bonuses. Titan tank keeps it from being ganked in 2 sec.
Next goal is for either side to escalate the fight to either try to save or kill the titan. But ultimately, the titan is still effective in it's own right ever 20 min beyond it's current ability to use it's guns and drones in fights.
Point is to make the fight around titans epic. This would be a movement towards that goal.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Saul Evon
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Posted - 2009.04.18 15:50:00 -
[72]
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Slave000002
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Posted - 2009.04.18 16:03:00 -
[73]
Great Ideas!!
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Hulkine
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Posted - 2009.04.18 16:04:00 -
[74]
I Love it!
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Selene BulleT
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Posted - 2009.04.18 16:54:00 -
[75]
with the exception of the olympians I like it
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Colonel Xaven
Decadence. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.18 18:32:00 -
[76]
I am not a cap fan at all, but these suggestions look like it could bring much more fun for cap level pilots. I will support this.
Proud member of RZR - Decadence. |
Caffeine Junkie
Atomic Battle Penguins
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Posted - 2009.04.18 20:42:00 -
[77]
I'm sold.
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Thodoros
Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.18 21:00:00 -
[78]
Great idea, hope it would come true. Hail the Greeks!
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Pilux
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Posted - 2009.04.18 21:27:00 -
[79]
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Gramobolanda
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Posted - 2009.04.18 22:49:00 -
[80]
sup
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Desiree Mabuto
Jagdkommando RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.19 08:54:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Desiree Mabuto on 19/04/2009 08:58:47 I am loving the ideas and suggestions you've written down in this thread. I am picking out the highlights for me ( not a supercap pilot tho ):
1. Titan makeover - way higher EHP - DD device makeover, less damage, cap drain, ecm shockwave, effected area warp disruped - tank balanced so it couldnt be used solo
2. Mothership redesign - raise the logistical role of the mothership - let it be a real "mothership" - nanobot repair cloud, bigger corp hangar / ship maintenance
3. a new capital class between a mothership and a titan - dedicated to be deployed on enemy capital fleets - with penalities ( e.g. cap boost ) when "siege mode" on - no ability to fully operate without external capital support ( rep / cap )
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Thirler
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.19 11:14:00 -
[82]
Arrow Capital Ship Sale |
Star Nove
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.19 17:29:00 -
[83]
Give me your nyx, I'll [l]use it!
As for your ideas. I support the need for change but I would ask you to go further in your suggestions, specifically, supercaps should allow pilots to dock in them while online. With a Mom, Make the SMA superhuge. If you log off in it, well, you are stupid as all you get to do is talk in local where the MOM logged off or jump clone out. Nothing else. but when the pilot is online, you can pick any ship from the hangar and undock in it. Or man point defence weapons (up to 6 x-large / 15 large / 30 medium /50 small ship weapons) with the mom having a racial bonus to proj, energy, hybrid or missiles.. The only thing you need as a docked gunner is to have SDM skills.. (note, not POS guns, guns you could fit to a ship, depending on the skill of the Supercap pilot, does not include the highslot weapons at the supercap pilot's disposal)
With the titan, you get an even bigger sma and double or even treble the number of available Point Defence Weapons.
Using these things to move big groups of pilots around would make titans and motherships much more usable. Having them NOT persistent in space after the pilot logs off though. (maybe a 15 minute grace period where it becomes invincible on disconnect so people can undock from it if the pilot gets DC'd) When he logs back in, he better have a scout;)
Maybe with having these defensive capabilities. the need to buff the EHP so heavily is reduced. The ships become Multiplayer powerhouses, able to defend themselves (with other players docked) and/or project a metric f***tonne of offensive damage.. |
JForce
The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.19 23:56:00 -
[84]
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McFly
C0LDFIRE RUDE Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.20 08:52:00 -
[85]
some good ideas here...
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She Zuki
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Posted - 2009.04.20 13:22:00 -
[86]
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Tasha Voronina
Caldari Navy Reserve Force
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Posted - 2009.04.20 14:58:00 -
[87]
--- Sig will be updated shortly |
Squall5668
Mythos Corp RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.21 04:44:00 -
[88]
nerf those ideas, they are too good :D Fully supported
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Necronus
Monks of War United Legion
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Posted - 2009.04.21 06:58:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Necronus on 21/04/2009 07:06:00 Edited by: Necronus on 21/04/2009 07:00:12 Edited by: Necronus on 21/04/2009 06:58:58 I agree on Hp boost, but: 1. You should take logoff time into consideration. I would suggest to increase aggressed logoff time for supercaps so it would not be a solo survival tactic. Moms ECM burst and Clone Vat bay: 1. Definately needs boosting (not major though)
Hangars: Don't see any serious problem with them so increasing their size is not vital.
Olympians is an interesting idea but it needs a lot of tweaking so it would not 1. Replace dreadnoughts 2. Be invulnurable for support fleet.(probably charging it with smaller ships like logistics either than with moms, probly some special this purpose only energy transfers, will be more vulnurable to subcapitals/medium sized ships)
DD re-work: Seems nice, but i personally would like to see more deviation of effect types by DD type. (each race dd will have different effects including cap drain,heat damage , warp disruption , maybe mass web etc)
And a really like an idea of personal AOE pos-like temprorary shield , it would be nice. And encourage to use moms in large scale fights.
And a small idea of my own:
Biggest problem of supercapital use in Large Fleet on Fleet battles is definately ammount of damage that kills it almost as fast as regular capital ship. I think we can introduce the following solution:
All supercapitals get Strontium bay (as POS) , and after Shield , Armor and lets say some ammount of structure is destroyed supercapital goes into reinforced mode similar to POS but in smaller period ofcourse. (lets say for example Moms for 30 minutes and Titan for 1 hour), cannot move , fight or logoff etc. (probly may be a good idea to give support fleet the ability to heal the damage and get their supercapitals out of reinforced state) It will give ability to shutdown supercapitals in combat without destroying them and support fleets will have time to respond and save them. (but ofcourse massive hp boost is needed anyway otherwise this solution may not work in full strenght)
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EFT Warrior
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Posted - 2009.04.21 09:01:00 -
[90]
I haven't proposed the idea in the features forum, but I'll post it here instead:
Let Titans fit a siege module (idea originally posted here). It seems like the perfect compliment to a fleet of dreadnoughts, and could replace a battleship fleet for anti support with the doomsday device. You jump bridge in the dreads, with the titan following. Any battleships or HICs that run in for the tackle or warp into grid to snipe get doomsdayed. The damage on titan guns in siege mode is also higher than a dreads, which makes me wonder if they originally planned to allow siege modules on titans in the first place. It would certainly make them viable as more than a glorified smartbomb, and I would actually want to fly one of these if they were changed.
It does make the titan more powerful, but the tradeoff is it's more vulnerable to being destroyed in very large capital fights (almost always a guaranteed primary target), but in smaller capital fights it would be invaluable.
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CrestoftheStars
Caldari Perkone
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Posted - 2009.04.21 11:29:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Vuk Lau CONCLUSION: My initial motive for proposing these changes is to give more intense and more fun gameplay for both supercapital and all other pilots. With changes like this we will see many more supercaps deployed on the frontlines and many more of them killed (killed, not ass****d without the chance to live long enough for a 2nd rep cycle :D ). To be honest, I wouldnt be emo at all if I lost my mothership or titan after hours of fighting with my hull going down to 5% just to be boosted again and so on. Atm a titan pilots combat experience is all but non-intense (besides praying that you will not die cause you were in lag for 1 minute :D ) and a mothership pilots combat experience is...lets say non-existent :D
I hope you recognized my motives and I am happily waiting all constructive feedback
Cheers
... why again would you as a normal pilot WANT more scap's on the battlefield?.
super caps are so insanely overpowered compared to anything else in came it is rediculess, they totally remove any means of balance. and don't give me some bull**** with "they cost a lot of isk", well so do a best officer fitted bs, one of those can get over 30 billions easy (if any one was crazy enough to fit it), but that doesn't mean it is balanced if it had the abillity to take out whole fleets by itself.
caps are overpowered too after the siege and tri modules was introduced.
anything that can't be taken down by 4 well fitted bs's with max skilled pilots and t2 fit, is overpowered to the point that it needs to be rebalanced, since it absolete any other ship type (only a matter of time so people can fly them. you already see now that when the cap fleet are comming almost any other ship then a cap is useless and a wasted of pilot space)..
my solution: remove the bpo's/bpc's for super caps and reimburse the amount they costed to the corp/alliance. and let the last of these roam untill they die.
then remove any siege and tri module bpo and bpc and do the same with these. while removing the modules on market and in hangers and on ships and reimburse the producers with 10% of it's value and the mat it took to build them.
now the balance is way better (although a rebalance of the dreads would be needed to get their dmg up a bit, but keep their tank low) ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
foksieloy
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Posted - 2009.04.21 16:09:00 -
[92]
Sound, and well thought out, suggestion. |
Yaay
Reikoku Reloaded KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.04.21 20:43:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Yaay on 21/04/2009 20:44:56
Originally by: CrestoftheStars all that stuff
By putting super caps on the field in more situations, they're more likely to die. Especially when it comes to titans and why their proliferation is so high. It's very hard to make a mistake in a titan atm, it's more about luck to get kills. People point to shrike for titan losses, but only 2 of his were in any sort of actual combat, the other 2 were based on nano bumping using POS passwords. That's more a flaw of game function. **M-o was also in combat, but was reimburse similar to a MM mothership due to a change in servers for testing reasons by the Devs.
Of the 20 or so titans that have died in game: 4 were logged off. 1 was a spy sellout. 3 were to POS bumping outta shields.
Of the remaining, 2 were total gits warping into fights they never should have been involved in. 1 was due to a terrible cyno and possibly a sellout for a grudge.
Out of the 20 or so killed, maybe 10 of those were legit, good kills. 10 titans in 2.5 years of game play lost to legitimate fights.
These proposals are geared towards making the ships more vulnerable while giving them a different role than just damage. For the Titans, it's ment to remove their ability to 1 or 2 volley fleets for a more tactical role and more risk.
The only real overpowering problem with capitals right now is the remote repping abilities of carriers and how it's been implimented. I would personally like to see it removed or allowed only in triage or not at all. I mean, why do we even have a logistics ship in game if carriers are used far more often and far more practically in most situations.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Jaina Proudmoar
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2009.04.21 22:19:00 -
[94]
Edited by: Jaina Proudmoar on 21/04/2009 22:24:48 Arn't Morsus Mihi crapping out Titans up in Tribute atm?
I sense an ulterior motive for wanting to introduce a new Capship type.
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Yaay
Reikoku Reloaded KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.04.22 19:57:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Jaina Proudmoar Edited by: Jaina Proudmoar on 21/04/2009 22:24:48 Arn't Morsus Mihi crapping out Titans up in Tribute atm?
I sense an ulterior motive for wanting to introduce a new Capship type.
He posted on his own boards to get the thread recognition... this is not a MOrsus Mihi issue, it's a game issue for those involved in 0.0. Hence the reason that b/t the 3 main threads that this one entails, there is goon, aaa, bob, nc, and other support. All of 0.0 know how borked supercaps are. But since you're so naive with your reply, it can only lead me to....
Vuk, I'm putting my app in for MM tomorrow if you'll have me sweetie.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Gaogan
Gallente Solar Storm Sev3rance
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Posted - 2009.04.22 20:04:00 -
[96]
The amount of idiocy here is so staggering I hardly know where to begin.
Originally by: CrestoftheStars
... why again would you as a normal pilot WANT more scap's on the battlefield?.
super caps are so insanely overpowered compared to anything else in came it is rediculess, they totally remove any means of balance. and don't give me some bull**** with "they cost a lot of isk", well so do a best officer fitted bs, one of those can get over 30 billions easy (if any one was crazy enough to fit it), but that doesn't mean it is balanced if it had the abillity to take out whole fleets by itself.
A mothership can not take out 30 other ships. Even a lone titan will loose to 30 bs if they are set up properly.
Originally by: CrestoftheStars caps are overpowered too after the siege and tri modules was introduced.
Umm, no? Siege was always there and is the only way that dreads become at all useful. Out of siege you are better off in a bs. The only time triage is used is for repping up pos guns. It isn't used anywhere else because the penalties ( can't be remote repped, can't move, loose fighters ) are too steep, not to mention burns stront.
Originally by: CrestoftheStars anything that can't be taken down by 4 well fitted bs's with max skilled pilots and t2 fit, is overpowered to the point that it needs to be rebalanced, since it absolete any other ship type (only a matter of time so people can fly them. you already see now that when the cap fleet are comming almost any other ship then a cap is useless and a wasted of pilot space)..
WAAAaaaaahhhh! That's like crying that it isn't fair that 4 t1 frigs can't kill a maurauder. Of course it's fair. Ohh, and a dozen bs can easily take down a mothership if set up right.
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Gaogan
Gallente Solar Storm Sev3rance
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Posted - 2009.04.22 20:12:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Yaay
The only real overpowering problem with capitals right now is the remote repping abilities of carriers and how it's been implimented. I would personally like to see it removed or allowed only in triage or not at all. I mean, why do we even have a logistics ship in game if carriers are used far more often and far more practically in most situations.
Remote repping on carriers is not any more overpowered than on any other ship. You have logistics ships for the same reason you still have dicters when we have hics. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages. Carriers might rep more, but they require more skills, are far more expensive, less manuverable, and can't use conventional stargates to get around, which prevents them from entering cyno jammed systems entirely.
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Bobbeh
Minmatar Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.04.22 23:52:00 -
[98]
No Offense Crest.... BUT
You obviously arent a capital ship pilot. If im in a battleship gang, more than usual i would rather have a team of logistics with me than a couple carriers. Reasons: Logistics are Faster They Lock Quicker Can Follow the Fleet through Gates They can warp out or avoid if Primaried alot quicker. Generally Logistics pilots know what they are doing, cant say the same for all carrier pilots running in a logistics role.
Carriers are great when supporting other capitals. assigning fighters, Repping at a pos when friendies warp in. But other than that They are pretty useless against a well fc'd BS fleet. Secondly A dread without siege is useless their tracking is ****ty, their locking time is horrible, their tanks are much worse than a carrier, The size of sig radius they have to hit as a target is sooo large. Anyone that ever said BS's and smaller dont have a position in a fleet is purely and utterly wrong. Supercaps without cap support are lost, and Caps without Support are Lost. its easy to overwhelm a cap fleet with a well fc'd Support and BS gang. They are all integral parts of an alliances over all fleet mechanic.
What Vuk is trying to do is make the highest end of the ships (by highest end i mean size, value) more useful to the general fleet mechanics of the game. this way he is hoping to see them more commonly in battle. because right now If your in a mom your an instant primary. If your in a titan your only job is warp in dd and get safe, thats it sounds exciting doesnt it. So dont bash someones ideas that are going to make the game better and give a class of ships that is not used to its full potential an actual position in the fleet.
Vuks got my support
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Typhado3
Ashen Lion Mining and Production Consortium Aeternus.
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Posted - 2009.04.23 00:40:00 -
[99]
seems good. a hp boost could do some nice things for them. anti capitals and ddd with different effects also seem like good ideas
ccp fix mining agent missions % pls |
Yaay
Reikoku Reloaded KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.04.23 00:50:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Gaogan
Originally by: Yaay
The only real overpowering problem with capitals right now is the remote repping abilities of carriers and how it's been implimented. I would personally like to see it removed or allowed only in triage or not at all. I mean, why do we even have a logistics ship in game if carriers are used far more often and far more practically in most situations.
Remote repping on carriers is not any more overpowered than on any other ship. You have logistics ships for the same reason you still have dicters when we have hics. Each has its own advantages and disadvantages. Carriers might rep more, but they require more skills, are far more expensive, less manuverable, and can't use conventional stargates to get around, which prevents them from entering cyno jammed systems entirely.
The difference between a carrier and any other RR platform is about 500k eft, 1800 more repair per 5 sec cycle, 76 eccm strength, and 40km more range than a bs group. Carriers also have considerable offensive power projection, compared to none for logistics. Yes there's a problem with that when out of triage.
When a carrier group exceeds 10, especially in a cyno jammed system, baring a vastly larger enemy fleet or a capital hot drop(not in jammed systems), you might as well not even take the fight. Yes there are lemming groups that can manage to fail, most won't. It's got nothing to do with abilities of carriers, it has to do with the power of their remote rep platforms.
Carriers are offensive projectors and hubs for resupplying ships. They are not logistics. They only reason they were ever given repair abilites was because POS repairing was even more dull than POS shooting, so it despirately need to be reduced in time.
Carriers were originally put in game with 30-50k hps in tank platform with bonuses in gang. They're now 170 to 200k hp in tank and vastly more proliferated in numbers.
I'd rather have motherships retain the ability to repair out of triage while carriers are unable than to keep the current structure. It would add another level of uniqueness to Moms while removing the joke that is carriers atm. Carrier swarming just kills conventional combat and forces capital warfare even more. By fun factor, conventional fleet warfare is far superior to capital warfare any day.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
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Nooto
Panta-Rhei Guardian Federation
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Posted - 2009.04.23 15:55:00 -
[101]
oh hell yes. thanx vuk for finaly proposing some really really useful changes. please please dont let this topic fall asleep and keep up the good work! BEWARE!!!
All text above this sig represents my personal opinion. This in no way reflects the views of my corporation or alliance |
Yaay
Reikoku Reloaded KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.04.23 19:42:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Nooto oh hell yes. thanx vuk for finaly proposing some really really useful changes. please please dont let this topic fall asleep and keep up the good work!
Always a brides maid never a bride I don't know a better phrase to catch the moment....
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
The ChurchWarden
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Posted - 2009.04.23 22:29:00 -
[103]
Good ideas
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Soleil Fournier
AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.04.23 23:49:00 -
[104]
Edited by: Soleil Fournier on 23/04/2009 23:51:54
Originally by: Yaay
Carriers are offensive projectors and hubs for resupplying ships. They are not logistics. They only reason they were ever given repair abilites was because POS repairing was even more dull than POS shooting, so it despirately need to be reduced in time.
As a Nyx pilot, I wholehartedly agree with this statement, which is why I'm uneasy about the proposed changes and leave my own below. (I'll be sticking to the mothership side of these changes for my analysis)
Necessary changes in priority to moms:
1) Boost Survivability 2) Boost usefullness to fleet 3) Improve maintenance/corp hanger space, add fuel bay
1) survivability
I agree that moms need a huge boost to HP and armor repping ability (as do titans)- they are WAY too easy to kill, which is a major reason why they arn't wanted in fleets.
2) Usefullness to fleet
They're primary role is, as stated, a combination of offensive firepower against support fleets and being used as a forword resupply platform for ships/ammo/fuel/etc.
I fully disagree that mom primary roles should be gi-normous "hospital" ships (aka capital logistics ships w/ fighters). The "bubble heal" is a nice idea, but that's more suited to a ship who's primary role is a hospital ship. I don't think that RR should be allowed to be used outside of triage mode, but triage mode needs to work like seige mode and boost defenses if it's to see any use outside of repping pos'.
On the other hand, I do like the POS effect mentioned earlier, that allows the mom to put up a pos bubble and protect the fleet, That idea has some major potential if implemented properly.
I like the projected ECM effect, but it's effect is simply not enough. It needs to be boosted.
Clone Vat bays need to be changed so that the mom isn't a sitting duck when it's activated. I think Clone Vats help fulfill that "forword resupply platform" role, but they're currently worthless in their current state.
3) Maintenance bay, corp hanger, fuel bay
I think that like blackops, all capital ships should have a seperate fuel bay, so that corporate hangers and cargo isn't filled by the necessary fuel requirements. This aids in the motherships role because that means more room for ammo and modules to help the fleet refit.
Moms also need huge boosts to their maintenance bays to resupply a BS fleet that just lost all it's ships. Moms should be able to carry 20 BS'.
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Korrakas
Legion of Ascension Beyond Ascension
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Posted - 2009.04.24 00:02:00 -
[105]
can i please design the olympians names/ descriptions, I have the perfect names etc cooked up straight from my homelands mythology (greece)
Originally by: CCP Mitnal I don't have holidays. I don't leave the forums unattended. I don't sleep. I am always here. Watching. Waiting.
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Lilla Kharn
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Posted - 2009.04.24 05:08:00 -
[106]
I endorse this product and/or service. ------------------------------- "Only the dead have seen the end of war" - Plato |
Vuk Lau
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.24 09:37:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Korrakas can i please design the olympians names/ descriptions, I have the perfect names etc cooked up straight from my homelands mythology (greece)
Feel free but do it fast :D cause I raised this issue for tomorrow's meeting (last one of CSM 2.0)
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Bobbeh
Minmatar Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.04.25 02:20:00 -
[108]
Best of luck Vuk Kick their asses and get it done for all of us super cap pilots out here
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Silent Sins
Deliciously Vicious
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Posted - 2009.04.25 03:42:00 -
[109]
****ing rights supported. good on you. ------------------------------ ------------------------------
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YouGotRipped
Ewigkeit
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Posted - 2009.04.25 06:42:00 -
[110]
Black Sun Empire |
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Cynthera Noir
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Posted - 2009.04.25 11:22:00 -
[111]
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xOmGx
Warriors tribe Red Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.25 11:30:00 -
[112]
Agree we need reworked Titan's and Mothership's Bonusses/roles
But i'm not agree with topic starter
CCP say titan should be a logistic ship, i say i'ts bull**** coz titan should be a Flagship with heavy defence and firepower capabilities. No Pain - No Gain |
Yaay
Reikoku Reloaded KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.04.25 13:40:00 -
[113]
Originally by: xOmGx Agree we need reworked Titan's and Mothership's Bonusses/roles
But i'm not agree with topic starter
CCP say titan should be a logistic ship, i say i'ts bull**** coz titan should be a Flagship with heavy defence and firepower capabilities.
The proposed changes keep titans with immense firepower and usefulness. They just don't allow them to be the 1 shot killers they are now.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Arjen1705
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Posted - 2009.04.27 17:44:00 -
[114]
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Virtuozzo
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.04.29 00:28:00 -
[115]
Vuk,
I'm in perfect agreement with the part on motherships, without a dedicated role for the shiptype the use of them is neither warranted nor practical.
Titans, the more that show up in game and the longer the debate continues I find myself wondering on whether they really are so bad or whether the bulk of the negativity comes from historic drama and damage. Especially since the majority of titan pilots go awol once they finish building the ship or finishing the isk race to buy it ...
I agree that for the class of ships they are they are very close to glass cannons, then again .. considering their intended purpose that does fit with risk versus reward. If you want to take a big (huge) shot at a fleet you have to accept that if you take that shot you have to prep it as best as possible ... or loose the ship in around 30-40 seconds.
The doomsday itself has not been the magic red button in 0.0 for a long, long time now, in spite of there being a lot more titans now then ever before.
Thing is, that making sure a DD is effective takes quite a bit of preparation and some very solid teamwork. Without that it is merely a psychological deterrant, something which any pro team can easily shake off and/or work around. At the same time it is amazingly easy to avoid a DD, as long as the fleet is on the ball and is working together smoothly. Only the best possible baiting and trapping can really make a DD effective, and given how much work (and still .. risk) goes into that it strikes me as not being out of the ordinary for risk versus reward.
I've flown titans, I've been in fleets getting titans thrown at them like silly, I've been in fleets that killed titans. I've been in "let's sit and eat up DD so we can see if we can trap titan" situations. Aside of the notion that a ship of such a size should be a monster in terms of hitpoints I can't say it's been much drama. Back in the days of remote doomsdays ... now that was something else :P
0.0 and all its toys are part of what CCP describes as "endgame content", a "level" where the rewards can be huge, where the teamwork goes above all and where the risks reflect both the potential in reward and the intrinsic requirement of teamwork. Even the idea of losing an entire fleet in a minute does not strike me as being out of place, considering the rewards and teamwork elements - if organisations are smart - provide for ample means and opportunity to replace that fleet. Both in terms of ISK and assets, typically within minutes.
What I do think is that here is perhaps a niche found for the logistical element of supplies and replacements, in the light of supercapitals. Then again, considering how hard it is to really wipe out a fleet maybe not.
Either way, I am sure it is all a matter of perception and personal experience, given how this week alone quite a number of titans and motherships went down contrasting sharply with the related subcapital losses perhaps we are making too much of the issue.
Still there is one thing which really nags me in the back of my mind, which is the most sensible approach on addressing the topic of the doomsday itself, the "chance/heat/module/damage" suggestion that was provided. While it did at first strike me as a very common sense idea, it is also pretty visible that it has zero consideration for the really fundamental problem which lies at the basis of all this .. human behaviour. Reduce the effectiveness of something which still carries more weight then anything else and human beings .... overcompensate by bringing more of it, and then doing it again with again more of the same.
Until some concept is put together which takes titans out of that negative spiral of human sheep behaviour, no sensible solution will be found, and that leaves at best only room for kneejerking type of fixes (EVE has had its share of those ....).
≡v≡
Please resize sig to a file size no greater than 24000 bytes - Mitnal
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Shaleen
Beach Boys BeachBoys
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Posted - 2009.04.29 06:20:00 -
[116]
Few others also started the same topic:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1048545
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1014819
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1023003
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1048127
It just confirms how badly we need those changes
Owing to lack of Eve-related content, signature removed. If you would like to discuss this, please mail [email protected] - Mitnal |
Yaay
Reikoku Reloaded KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.04.29 14:25:00 -
[117]
Originally by: Virtuozzo Vuk,
Still there is one thing which really nags me in the back of my mind, which is the most sensible approach on addressing the topic of the doomsday itself, the "chance/heat/module/damage" suggestion that was provided. While it did at first strike me as a very common sense idea, it is also pretty visible that it has zero consideration for the really fundamental problem which lies at the basis of all this .. human behaviour. Reduce the effectiveness of something which still carries more weight then anything else and human beings .... overcompensate by bringing more of it, and then doing it again with again more of the same.
Until some concept is put together which takes titans out of that negative spiral of human sheep behaviour, no sensible solution will be found, and that leaves at best only room for kneejerking type of fixes (EVE has had its share of those ....).
To counter that, there was an added 20sec warp scramble which affects the titan too. Yes more people will bring titans, but that means more titans are exposed. The problem atm is exposure levels and the risk of said exposure. I say bring it on.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Lallante
Reikoku Reloaded KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.04.29 14:36:00 -
[118]
Edited by: Lallante on 29/04/2009 14:36:07 http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1061059
My suggestion there. Its better.
Lall - THE Vocal Minority - Reikoku
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Virtuozzo
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.04.30 10:45:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Yaay To counter that, there was an added 20sec warp scramble which affects the titan too. Yes more people will bring titans, but that means more titans are exposed. The problem atm is exposure levels and the risk of said exposure. I say bring it on.
I read that, but that is not exactly a countermechanism. Instead it supports the human behaviour twist, even reinforces it. An FC has 4 titans ready to throw on the field for the usual triple DD + 1 standby. Since they are going to have added time on the field, he is going to make sure he not only has a dedicated carrier support group ready but also a second titan group .. just to be absolutely sure he can control the field and what comes on it. Should his targets escape a DD, or have a trap ready, or even just be quick in replacing ships from a pos, he will strive to control the situation.
Ergo, again we are back to being sheep. Truth be told DD's and Titans are not the problem, it's us flocking them which is the problem. If we want to work around that, we should look into not making it worth bringing more then a given ratio to a field (think of a game design element which kinda works like the nodes in eve when you DD so much the thing comes crashing down :P)
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SickSeven
The Undead Righteous Knights
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Posted - 2009.04.30 11:45:00 -
[120]
I love the MOM changes.
For Titans I say boost their defensive ability and just let them fit siege modules instead of DD. Afterall what the hell is the point of XL weapons without siege modules? absolutely none, BS weapons do more damage. Maybe CCP thought about fitting Titans with siege mods and then scrapped it. why else would they allow for XL weapons to be fitted? |
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Dav Varan
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Posted - 2009.04.30 15:08:00 -
[121]
Originally by: Vuk Lau
- They die so easily its not even funny.
Maybe your doing something wrong but anyway
Rule number 1 . Dont fly what you cant afford to lose.
BS cost 20 times as much as a cruiser but they dont have 20x ehp
The more and more you spend on a ship the less you get back in terms of additional firepower and tank.
This is true at any ship level and there is a reason. The reason being if dps and ehp were proportional to cost new players would find it more or less impossible to get into the game in any meaningful way.
Yes Moms are expensive but the 20x they cost over carriers is fair for the 2x dps and 1.5x tank
Not signed
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Yaay
Reikoku Reloaded KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.04.30 19:50:00 -
[122]
Edited by: Yaay on 30/04/2009 19:55:38
Originally by: Dav Varan
Originally by: Vuk Lau
- They die so easily its not even funny.
Maybe your doing something wrong but anyway
Rule number 1 . Dont fly what you cant afford to lose.
BS cost 20 times as much as a cruiser but they dont have 20x ehp
The more and more you spend on a ship the less you get back in terms of additional firepower and tank.
This is true at any ship level and there is a reason. The reason being if dps and ehp were proportional to cost new players would find it more or less impossible to get into the game in any meaningful way.
Yes Moms are expensive but the 20x they cost over carriers is fair for the 2x dps and 1.5x tank
Not signed
You're right, Battleships instead have about 10x the eft, 2-3 extra tankable slots, triple the DPS, and about 4-8 times the tank of a tech 1 cruiser, not to mention a much larger drone bay, and god knows what else I've forgotten. Titans do not get siege, nor should they. They do not get a huge bonus to HP over dreads. No extra slots beyond highs and maybe an extra 1 mid or low. They're slow, they're stupid, and they're 1 and done. Their 1 weapon is so ridiculously overpowered and under performing it's really a joke to even try to expound on the 100 post before.
Mom's are even worse because baring a cyno jammed system, they have no greater role than a carrier. In fact, 2 carriers are about 1/8th the cost of a mom, insurable, have the bonus of RR each other, equivalent firepower, etc. So the question becomes, why a mom over a carrier. Oh yeah, And carriers can dock which is far less risky than a cap ship maintenance array. This allows the pilot to be far more flexible and effective for far less cost.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
NAFnist
NAF
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Posted - 2009.05.01 03:54:00 -
[123]
why is a cynojammer so hard to kill, when a mothership and even titans can get ganked?
also, i dream of supcaps with siege an area effect capabilites, other than dd ofcause -.-
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Ziro
Reikoku KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.05.01 06:48:00 -
[124]
Edited by: Ziro on 01/05/2009 06:48:44 Edited by: Ziro on 01/05/2009 06:48:09 As a 2+ year Nyx pilot, I earnestly believe that motherships need a significant change. It's simply too easy to lose 20b isk.
The proposals to motherships that I thought most viable were the ones affecting super capitals ability to spider-tank more effectively, and the proposal to manipulate transversal on sieged turret dreads more effectively.
Whatever the result, super capitals (motherships especially) need something to make them worth their cost and building effort.
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Koala Bare
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Posted - 2009.05.02 10:28:00 -
[125]
Tbh, throwing the sensitive elements of motherships and titans together in one topic is a bad idea, it makes it too easy to go overboard with one and forget the other, or even punch through changes which make sense for one type but not the other.
Vuk, best split it up, since both types are not only very different, but also serve different roles in game, heck they even rely on very different mechanics. Maybe then there will be more unilateral crunch for getting the troubles tackled. Besides that, you know CCP never likes overall changes, but prefers to handle matters to the point and in specific.
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Eva J
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Posted - 2009.05.02 13:32:00 -
[126]
Some ideas for changes to Supercaps
CCP has stated in the past that a mothership is a support ship so here's an idea
Nyx
Gallente Carrier Skill Bonuses: 50% bonus to Capital Shield/Armor And Hull transfer range per level 5% bonus to deployed FightersÆ damage per level 7.5% bonus to gang membersÆ maximum armor HP per level 99% reduction in CPU need for Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration modules Can deploy 2 additional Fighters per level 200% bonus to Fighter control range
Role Bonus Can fit 1 additional Warfare Link module per level 99% reduction in CPU need for Warfare Link modules 99% reduction in CPU need for Clone Vat Bay 99% reduction in CPU need for Jump Portal Generators 99% reduction in CPU need for Projected Electronic Counter Measures modules Immune to all forms of Electronic Warfare
Give all motherships 1 more high slot and 2,500,000m3 more SMA and increase there corp and cargo hold acordingly Now for Titans
Erebus
Gallente Titan Skill Bonuses: 10% bonus to Capital Hybrid Turret damage per level 7.5% bonus to Capital Hybrid Turret tracking speed per level. 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount 15% bonus to drone damage and hitpoints per level 99% reduction in CPU need for- Super Siege Module - Titan only 1.5X Bonus Of Normal Siege Module
Role Bonus Can be remote repaired in seige mode BUT ONLY BY MOTHERSHIPS 99% reduction in CPU need for Aurora Ominae reduce damage by 50% Immune to all forms of Electronic Warfare
Would be interesting to see a titan jump into a dread fight and not get owned straight away
Increase Mothership and Titan jump range by 0.50 ly And maybe increase Motherships ehp by 5-10% oh and change mothership model sizes as a nyx is about the same size as an archon
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Quakar
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Posted - 2009.05.03 04:17:00 -
[127]
/signy
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Nooto
Caldari Panta-Rhei Guardian Federation
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Posted - 2009.05.03 18:33:00 -
[128]
Quote: oh and change mothership model sizes as a nyx is about the same size as an archon
Q F T!!!! BEWARE!!!
All text above this sig represents my personal opinion. This in no way reflects the views of my corporation or alliance |
Captain Politics
JotunHeim Hird
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Posted - 2009.05.04 10:04:00 -
[129]
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Phoenix Pryde
Caldari 3-I Area 42
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Posted - 2009.05.04 17:48:00 -
[130]
While i am certain that SuperCaps could be improved/changed i am also pretty certain that that alone isnt enough.
One major promlem imo is that in the large scale of things they are built way to easily ... Just look at the numbers of Titans .... their cost and necessary effort was maybe balanced back when they were introduced in 2005/6 but these days they are far to easy to obtain.
That starts with logistical changes, ranging from JFs to Jump Bridges, Sovereignity 4 which decreases risk, and the simple matter of 0.0 income being way higher than back then :P
anyway, in summary ... MS as well as Titans should be way harder to build and cost more ! :P (especially if buffed)
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Cutty Carebear
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Posted - 2009.05.07 11:59:00 -
[131]
supporting this
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Deuterium
N'Th'Rack Squadron Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.05.07 12:01:00 -
[132]
i fully support the fact that supercaps need a serious rework. Many good ideas in this thread. |
Neena Valdi
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.05.08 05:44:00 -
[133]
Edited by: Neena Valdi on 08/05/2009 05:44:23 Supported.
Titans role totally should be revamped and DD removed as it's ruining 0.0 warfare.
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Yaay
Reikoku KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.05.08 14:33:00 -
[134]
Originally by: Neena Valdi Edited by: Neena Valdi on 08/05/2009 05:44:23 Supported.
Titans role totally should be revamped and DD removed as it's ruining 0.0 warfare.
49- 2 nights ago is a perfect example of why dd need to be removed.
2 titans logged in, were in warp in under 3 min, 40 bs and more support killed, relatively equal matched fleet jumps in, and goes balistic b/c they now have a large advantage with all those ships killed ahead of time.
titans removed a massive amount of our firepower in the blink of an eye before the fight could even begin... I'd have rather had a disabled fleet with half their mods heat damaged than dead ships, so we could have had a better alternative to fight it out.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Vuk Lau
4S Corporation Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.05.08 17:31:00 -
[135]
Yaay let us enjoy few more months DDing you guys :D
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Neena Valdi
The Collective Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.05.08 21:51:00 -
[136]
Originally by: Vuk Lau Yaay let us enjoy few more months DDing you guys :D
Doomsday adds more strategical options into the game.. which is good of course, but the downside of it - reduced amount of conventional fleet skirmishes - is way too bad in the eyes of majority of players, I reckon...
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Torhas
N'Th'Rack Squadron Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2009.05.10 22:49:00 -
[137]
supercaps need a rework, i support this.
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CrestoftheStars
Caldari Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2009.05.10 23:00:00 -
[138]
still think they should either totally remove super caps (can't be done) or remake them totally, let them be giant moving pos's meaning that they are a large pos that can be set up in 1hour and packed after 24hours (in 1 hour), moms could be the support type pos and titans could be the gun type. ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
CrestoftheStars
Caldari Recreation Of The World
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Posted - 2009.05.10 23:03:00 -
[139]
Edited by: CrestoftheStars on 10/05/2009 23:06:26
Originally by: Yaay Edited by: Yaay on 30/04/2009 19:55:38
Originally by: Dav Varan
Originally by: Vuk Lau
- They die so easily its not even funny.
Maybe your doing something wrong but anyway
Rule number 1 . Dont fly what you cant afford to lose.
BS cost 20 times as much as a cruiser but they dont have 20x ehp
The more and more you spend on a ship the less you get back in terms of additional firepower and tank.
This is true at any ship level and there is a reason. The reason being if dps and ehp were proportional to cost new players would find it more or less impossible to get into the game in any meaningful way.
Yes Moms are expensive but the 20x they cost over carriers is fair for the 2x dps and 1.5x tank
Not signed
You're right, Battleships instead have about 10x the eft, 2-3 extra tankable slots, triple the DPS, and about 4-8 times the tank of a tech 1 cruiser, not to mention a much larger drone bay, and god knows what else I've forgotten. Titans do not get siege, nor should they. They do not get a huge bonus to HP over dreads. No extra slots beyond highs and maybe an extra 1 mid or low. They're slow, they're stupid, and they're 1 and done. Their 1 weapon is so ridiculously overpowered and under performing it's really a joke to even try to expound on the 100 post before.
Mom's are even worse because baring a cyno jammed system, they have no greater role than a carrier. In fact, 2 carriers are about 1/8th the cost of a mom, insurable, have the bonus of RR each other, equivalent firepower, etc. So the question becomes, why a mom over a carrier. Oh yeah, And carriers can dock which is far less risky than a cap ship maintenance array. This allows the pilot to be far more flexible and effective for far less cost.
bs's don't have the abillity to lay their full dmg down upon cruisers or frigs..
moms have the abillity to lay the full dmg down upon any ship size...
sooooo no.
beside the extra dps/tank is not nearly as effective as it looks because of the size difference.
5 frigates well fitted can take out a bs, a ship costing 100-200x more then those frigates. 5bs's will be killed slowly and painfully by 1 mom, a ship costing ow wait 100x more the cost of those 5 bs's.. hmm so where is the difference again?. besides the mom being overpowered compared to the normal cost/effectiveness formula for t1 ships (which it still is). ___________________________________________ Whoever appeals to the law against his fellow man is either a fool or a coward. Whoever cannot take care of himself without that law is both. For a wounded |
Yaay
Reikoku KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.05.10 23:23:00 -
[140]
Crest, you are in no way comparing apples to apples. Ship scales when 5 smalls can kill one big is so heavily dependent on factors outside of the norm that it's just silly. Yes it happens all the time, but you're not equating pilot skills, ship fits, etc.
Super caps are typically static fits because they are all geared towards single functions.
We/I am not asking for a huge gank and tank platform, we're asking for a rework of a borked platform that would make more sense. By your logic, our platforms are actually better because they benefit smaller ships more.
Titans should not be one ship fleet killers, it removes fun for the other 200 people out there in fleets every time doomsdays go off, and while the titan pilot has fun counting kills, everyone else get's ****y that they didn't get a fight.
Moms are problematic because cost v reward ratio is so skewed out of it's favor that most people just revert to carriers. Most of their problem is derived from focus fire from dreads and the inability to tank in any substantial matter in a cap fight.
both are issues that need looked at
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
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Awesome Engineer
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Posted - 2009.05.11 02:20:00 -
[141]
Originally by: Dav Varan
Originally by: Vuk Lau
- They die so easily its not even funny.
Maybe your doing something wrong but anyway
Rule number 1 . Dont fly what you cant afford to lose.
BS cost 20 times as much as a cruiser but they dont have 20x ehp
The more and more you spend on a ship the less you get back in terms of additional firepower and tank.
This is true at any ship level and there is a reason. The reason being if dps and ehp were proportional to cost new players would find it more or less impossible to get into the game in any meaningful way.
Yes Moms are expensive but the 20x they cost over carriers is fair for the 2x dps and 1.5x tank
Not signed
this man doesn't even know what hes talking about.
I support this, moms are just useless since HiD, what the point to risk a ms when u just can field a fully insurable carrier which can do exactly what a mom does ? Epeen ? no thanks. |
Sigmari
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Posted - 2009.05.13 07:56:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Awesome Engineer
I support this, moms are just useless since HiD, what the point to risk a ms when u just can field a fully insurable carrier which can do exactly what a mom does ? Epeen ? no thanks.
As it is now motherships are more like faction carrier if we compare megathron to vindicator for example - while little better vindi is much more pricey...
So indeed - motherships need to be given own unique role to make them useful again. I don't think they should become solopwnmobiles like they used to be, but something totally different...
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Zuju
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Posted - 2009.05.13 11:29:00 -
[143]
Yes
Titans need to be less a hidden nuke and more a super star destroyer and mother ships need improvements
Supported
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Lord EmBra
Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.05.14 12:58:00 -
[144]
You have some good ideas here!
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Muad' Dib
Gallente Beyond Divinity Inc
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Posted - 2009.05.14 18:04:00 -
[145]
The ideea of energy neuting as a DDD weapon will simply make them even more invulnerable. --- I smack just for myself.
* Your signature file is to large. Please note: we do not allow signature files larger than 24000 bytes - Fallout |
Yaay
Reikoku KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.05.14 20:10:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Muad' Dib The ideea of energy neuting as a DDD weapon will simply make them even more invulnerable.
please explain this logic in detail.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Betonela
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Posted - 2009.05.15 10:48:00 -
[147]
/signed
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Karina Redstar
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Posted - 2009.05.15 10:49:00 -
[148]
agree with op
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XMM1
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Posted - 2009.05.16 23:50:00 -
[149]
DD is fine, triple DD is bad. Solution: make ships invulnerable by DD in it's area for ROF time... After ECM nerf, spider tank is boosted dramaticaly. If HP of supercaps be inscreased, OGM... Don't support
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Aura Mega
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Posted - 2009.05.17 07:37:00 -
[150]
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Zostera
Honour Bound Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.05.17 12:59:00 -
[151]
Edited by: Zostera on 17/05/2009 13:02:27 Supported in general principle on the basis that the general direction of the changes promotes the following.
Titan becomes less of an I-WIN vs. conventional ships. Titan becomes a platform for focused anti-capital weapons. Mothership gains increased utility on the field. Super-capitals are deployed as part of a coherent fleet with mixed ship types.
I would love to see Titans deployed on the field and take part in sustained capital engagements, taking heavy fire from enemy ships and being suppported by Motherships and carriers for reps. I am not a supercap pilot, but I do imagine that changes which promote sustained use over sitting in a safespot cloaked would increase the fun vs. investement payoff.
Some things I wouldn't like to see.
One shotting dreads. Any action should have a counterable action, perhaps a level of damage that allows a two shot unless very heavy reps are applied to the targeted dread within a rate of fire window of maybe 30 seconds. Realistically if that dread was also taking sustained fire from other caps it would likely die quickly anyway, but this would at least allow a chance of response based on player skill at handling reps.
Cap killing DD. I think this would simply see Titans used in a similar manner as currently. Hostile fleet jumps into system and into a ton of bubbles. Titans cap DD and hostile fleet is stuck in bubbles with no cap available to MWD out or rep each other effectively. Friendly fleet warps in and picks them off. Anything which continues to promote one sided fleet enagagements at gates over more balanced battles in system simply reduces the element of player skill and removes fun that can be had taking part in lengthy battles on a more even tactical field. Similar for heat damage. Granted it would be more fun for the side picking people off, at least they don't camp a gate for 2 hours just so one pilot can BOOM and they all go home. But EvE is a two sided game, and changes that promote fun for all are preferable.
Zos
Vote Mazzilliu 09 CSM |
Yaay
Reikoku KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.05.17 19:59:00 -
[152]
Edited by: Yaay on 17/05/2009 20:00:26
Originally by: Zostera
Cap killing DD. I think this would simply see Titans used in a similar manner as currently. Hostile fleet jumps into system and into a ton of bubbles. Titans cap DD and hostile fleet is stuck in bubbles with no cap available to MWD out or rep each other effectively. Friendly fleet warps in and picks them off. Anything which continues to promote one sided fleet enagagements at gates over more balanced battles in system simply reduces the element of player skill and removes fun that can be had taking part in lengthy battles on a more even tactical field. Similar for heat damage. Granted it would be more fun for the side picking people off, at least they don't camp a gate for 2 hours just so one pilot can BOOM and they all go home. But EvE is a two sided game, and changes that promote fun for all are preferable.
There are already counters to DD, like dodging them, jumping in parts of fleet, anti bubble warfare, etc. The difference between removing cap and heat damage or 1 shot kills is obvious. 1 allows you to continue fighting if the worst happens, the other ends the fight in one flash.
1 cap injector counters the 0 cap issue while still giving the titan DD a significant advantage. The point is, you want a DD to be massively effective. You also give more of a role to capless BS in fleet fights by doing this (hello sucky minmatar and caldari). You don't want a DD to be a 2-3 pilot afair against enemy fleets. You should have to work harder than what is currently necessary to have such a huge effect on enemy fleets.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Zostera
Minmatar Honour Bound Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.05.17 21:56:00 -
[153]
Edited by: Zostera on 17/05/2009 21:56:31
Originally by: Yaay Edited by: Yaay on 17/05/2009 20:00:26
Originally by: Zostera
Cap killing DD. I think this would simply see Titans used in a similar manner as currently. Hostile fleet jumps into system and into a ton of bubbles. Titans cap DD and hostile fleet is stuck in bubbles with no cap available to MWD out or rep each other effectively. Friendly fleet warps in and picks them off. Anything which continues to promote one sided fleet enagagements at gates over more balanced battles in system simply reduces the element of player skill and removes fun that can be had taking part in lengthy battles on a more even tactical field. Similar for heat damage. Granted it would be more fun for the side picking people off, at least they don't camp a gate for 2 hours just so one pilot can BOOM and they all go home. But EvE is a two sided game, and changes that promote fun for all are preferable.
There are already counters to DD, like dodging them, jumping in parts of fleet, anti bubble warfare, etc. The difference between removing cap and heat damage or 1 shot kills is obvious. 1 allows you to continue fighting if the worst happens, the other ends the fight in one flash.
1 cap injector counters the 0 cap issue while still giving the titan DD a significant advantage. The point is, you want a DD to be massively effective. You also give more of a role to capless BS in fleet fights by doing this (hello sucky minmatar and caldari). You don't want a DD to be a 2-3 pilot afair against enemy fleets. You should have to work harder than what is currently necessary to have such a huge effect on enemy fleets.
I agree that the DD changes as proposed would make fighting less of a 2-3 player affair, however those 2-3 players still have a massive impact on the opposing fleet using any area of effect weapon.
Snipers fitting a cap injector are going to gimp range. It would still be a turkey shoot from the defenders point of view. Same if the fleet entering system lost all it's module functionality to heat damage.
Any kind of AoE which can impact unlimited targets has an exponentially detrimental impact on the fleet it is used upon. Removing this so that fleets have more of a chance to fight on "equal" terms creates an envirnoment where more pilots can havefun in longer sustained battles.
Move the Titans role to cap killer and the whole business comes down to numbers sure, but numbers can be countered with skill and tactics played out over time. Good FC's can adapt to circumstances, sieze opportunities as they develop and turn the tide of a fight. That will only happen in longer fights, not fights decided by AoE. Zos
Vote Mazzilliu 09 CSM |
Yaay
Reikoku KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.05.18 03:31:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Zostera
Snipers fitting a cap injector are going to gimp range. It would still be a turkey shoot from the defenders point of view. Same if the fleet entering system lost all it's module functionality to heat damage.
Any kind of AoE which can impact unlimited targets has an exponentially detrimental impact on the fleet it is used upon. Removing this so that fleets have more of a chance to fight on "equal" terms creates an envirnoment where more pilots can havefun in longer sustained battles.
Move the Titans role to cap killer and the whole business comes down to numbers sure, but numbers can be countered with skill and tactics played out over time. Good FC's can adapt to circumstances, sieze opportunities as they develop and turn the tide of a fight. That will only happen in longer fights, not fights decided by AoE.
sniper fits would hardly be affected
AOE is fine so long as it's more nuisance than pwn. The point of a DD is to turn the tides of battle meaning a smaller force has a greater chance. Right now, titans alone win fights requiring hardly any support to do so... obviously there are exceptions to that.
This Idea is meant to keep the devastation but remove the 3 pilot affect on fleets... I.E., if you wanna kill my fleet and ensure your titans live, you better damn well bring backup.
As I've stated now many times, Titan DD's atm are the most overpowered and under performing things in game which is why titans are ghetto. You either miss horribly and run the risk of complete catastrophy, or nail a fleet and laugh.
In the future, I think said changes would bring far more strategical purpose to why a Titan or FC's would even want to DD. You worry about cap, but comparing cap to the actual existence of a ship is no comparison.
As someone who runs fleets, Titans to me are such a double edge blade. I personally have no desire to use Titans for anything other than massive blobs when I'm massively outgunned. However, most people In titans are out to DD anything and everything for ****s and giggles. That removes fun factor for anyone on either side of the fight.
Every time We DD an enemy fleet with our own fleet waiting, 100s of pilots see a wasted fight. Is that fair to them? Allowing them to go in after a DD and get said fight seems far more appropriate, even if the enemy fleet is gimped.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Zostera
Minmatar Honour Bound Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.05.18 10:52:00 -
[155]
Originally by: Yaay
Every time We DD an enemy fleet with our own fleet waiting, 100s of pilots see a wasted fight. Is that fair to them? Allowing them to go in after a DD and get said fight seems far more appropriate, even if the enemy fleet is gimped.
Wholeheartedly agree, which is why I also disagree.
Supporting Vuk Lau's Cap killer proposal for the Titan over a change to DD that leaves it as an unfocused weapon vs. smaller ships promotes more fighting for all piltots. This is especially the case in the early moments of battles when the attacking fleet has to jump in. I can't imagine anyone disagreeing that the fleet that jumps in isn't already at a significant disadvantage.
Many of the attacking fleet will be out of range to shoot the opponents gathered in a snipe spot. The defenders on the other hand can concentrate all their fire.
Fleet jumping in cannot make effective use of remote reps to counter that for the same reason, the fleet is spread out.
The defending fleet has freedom to move and warp off unless a skilled Dictor pilot makes it through. The attacking fleet is bubbled regardless of player skill and often for 50km or from the gate.
Personally I don't see the difference between dieing to the actual DD as it currrently stands, and dieing a couple minutes later to a sniper fleet while I am:
Capped out in a bubble, not able to shoot or MWD, or if I fit an injector I can shoot but don't have the range to hit a dedicated sniping opponent. Giving up a mid-slot on a sniper for cap injection on every attacking ship is going to hand the defending fleet a huge tactical advantage in terms of it's ability to dictate range.
Worse still, sitting in a bubble with completely burned out heat damaged modules, not able to shoot, can't MWD. Turkey shooting ftl.
Granted at least the defending pilots get to shoot stuff, but that hardly addresses the fundamental imbalance that exists as a result of Titans being an AoE platform vs. sub-capital ships. Zos
Vote Mazzilliu 09 CSM |
Yaay
Reikoku KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.05.18 17:36:00 -
[156]
Edited by: Yaay on 18/05/2009 17:38:08
Originally by: Zostera stuff
You're assuming an alive fleet with 0 cap is helpless. I think many people would disagree with that statement. You're taking 1 instance, jumping into a bubbled gate, as it accounts for every instance.
most DD are not fleets jumping into massively bubbled gates, they're fleets on grid bubbled by dictors. Consider it the FC's fault if he's dumb enough to put you at that disadvantage w/o a plan in your scenario. In all other scenarios, this type of DD plays out far better than most other ideas.
A dread killer titan is a joke just like a fleet killer titan is a joke. AOE is fine, it just can't be a direct damage effect like it currently is.
I seem to think you missed the part where a Titan DD was supposed to turn the tides of fleet battles... everyone wants that. They just don't want direct damage affects.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Zostera
Minmatar Honour Bound Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.05.18 19:56:00 -
[157]
Edited by: Zostera on 18/05/2009 19:58:14
Originally by: Yaay stuff
Unfortunately the natural tendency with Titan area of effect weapons is simply to stack them up.
When one doomsday wasn't enough people used two, then three. I imagine the same will continue to happen, and any change to another area effect will simply result in the same. No change to the essential use of Titans, warp in, DD, warp off. Same essential devastating effect on the DD'ed fleet.
Zos
Vote Mazzilliu 09 CSM |
Yaay
Reikoku KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.05.19 00:04:00 -
[158]
Originally by: Zostera Edited by: Zostera on 18/05/2009 19:58:14
Originally by: Yaay stuff
Unfortunately the natural tendency with Titan area of effect weapons is simply to stack them up.
When one doomsday wasn't enough people used two, then three. I imagine the same will continue to happen, and any change to another area effect will simply result in the same. No change to the essential use of Titans, warp in, DD, warp off. Same essential devastating effect on the DD'ed fleet.
If you read the link in the OP to my thread, you'd see that Heat damage is in part a way to user in more T3 goods.... Do you want that t2 beam that dies to 1 max dd, or do you want that t3 good that dies to 3... add that to a 20 % chance to be affected on each mod, you have an amazingly low rate of death of mods.
This also opens up the avenue to other things.
As for the Neuting part.... there are now a viable **** ton of ways to counter neuting. RR fleets all carry cap injectors already, only sniper ships do not.
Smaller ships are anti dictor platforms, so it's less likely they'll even get bubbled.
You are being very 1 dimentional in your thinking, so you've said no to area, and you've stated why, there's no point in repeating yourself w/o further ammunition. You seem to be running under the assumption that I and Vuk have not considered the rammifications of this before posting. Yet he and I are involved in one of the biggest wars Eve has ever seen, and experience and lead fleets with Titans for and against us daily. You're a bit out gunned on the the Experience factor there.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Zostera
Minmatar Honour Bound Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.05.19 18:10:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Yaay
Originally by: Zostera Edited by: Zostera on 18/05/2009 19:58:14
Originally by: Yaay stuff
You're a bit out gunned on the the Experience factor there.
Ofc Yaay, your reputation preceeds you...
I was under the impression that the assembly hall was an open forum where subjects could be openly discussed by all players.
Anyhow, I covered the points I wanted to cover.
Zos
Vote Mazzilliu 09 CSM |
killerbitsch
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Posted - 2009.05.20 12:04:00 -
[160]
approx this supported! except the one-shot dread pop...
since a couple of dreads can pop a titan quite swiftly, the titan should be able to send some of them to hell before falling, even if the dreads are sieged.
DD should be much less deadly (when used as area effect - see later), should be reusable much more frequently, and possibly should give some nice, but not at all deadly bonus (like an ECM burst), which grants tactical advantage to friendly fleet, but doesn't completely ruin the day of the opposition. DD should be scriptable, and thus focused on a single target resulting it to instapop, except if it's a supercapital one (where it would just give some conventional, but huge damage). since most of the titans' bonuses are for gang assisting, they should really participate fleet battles, pretty unlike they do now, but due to this, there shouldn't be any new type of new anti-cap guns introduced, as the high-slots should be reserved for gang assist modules.
- the conventional gun bonus of the titans should be removed for eg. DD reuse time -%/lvl. - area DD should kill off only drones/fighters, and frigs (possibly nano-fit t1 cruisers also), and give some tactically useful bonus like an ECM burst. - DD should be scriptable to focus its strength to instapop ANYthing that is non-supercap. (1 target only) - DD should be reusable like 5 minutes. half of this time the titan cannot warp. both these times can be reduced /titan level. - boost in clone vat bay and ship maintenance hanger, so they can field much a bigger fleet. (this also goes for mommies)
the upper changes (and prolly some more smaller ones) would give the titan a key role in fleet battles, not just this "came, flash, gone" strategy.
anyway. revision is highly supported from my side.
Originally by: Zostera Edited by: Zostera on 17/05/2009 13:02:27 Supported in general principle on the basis that the general direction of the changes promotes the following.
Titan becomes less of an I-WIN vs. conventional ships. Titan becomes a platform for focused anti-capital weapons. Mothership gains increased utility on the field. Super-capitals are deployed as part of a coherent fleet with mixed ship types.
I would love to see Titans deployed on the field and take part in sustained capital engagements, taking heavy fire from enemy ships and being suppported by Motherships and carriers for reps. I am not a supercap pilot, but I do imagine that changes which promote sustained use over sitting in a safespot cloaked would increase the fun vs. investement payoff.
Some things I wouldn't like to see... etc.
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Tobruk
Black Omega Security Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2009.05.20 23:45:00 -
[161]
doomsday should be a direct fire weapon that does enough damage to easily one volly a dread and should have a bonous against fixed objects (towers and stations).
motherships need a HP and most importantly a jump range boost (should be further than carriers tbh). hp boost should be in ratio to the components it takes to build them.
MS should get a bigger boost to remote repping than carriers. Also the clone vat bay should be inherent not a mod. MS and titans need a big bonous overheating so that they can effectivly overheat for tens of minutes without burining out any mods.
and both or at least MS need to be dockable.
----------------------------------------------
Sig removed. Elmo Pug removed my sig because he hates me
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Pliauga
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Posted - 2009.05.21 05:18:00 -
[162]
Regarding the extension of supercap battle durability (sorry if this was mentioned before):
Problem with current suggestion: extra hitpoints will be easily negated by extra dreads, and c'mon, what can survive for 30min. when 50 dreads let it rip.
Sollution (I know it's radical please don't flame (too much)): micro reinforced mode that a supercap enters when it reaches half structure (or smth.). Making it indestructible but also imobile for certain set period of time.
How's that for a whacky idea?
------- "Skynet" is my internet provider, should I be worried? |
Bonny Lee
Caldari The Guardian Agency Guardian Federation
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Posted - 2009.05.21 11:13:00 -
[163]
I dont like the effect of the DD mentioned in this thread. This does in no case eliminate the hit&run of titans.
Scenario: If the first titan places his DD(the new one) well, every other titan in system has 20seconds to fire his DD on the same fleet without any ship of it being able to get away. With the increasing amount of titans i cant see why an alliance shouldnt fire lots of DDs on the same fleet destroying every module on them leaving them gimped to any conventional fleet without any chance to get away cause 20secs are enough to totally bubble them down after the DD.
If a titan is going deploy a DD it should be forced to stay on field and not being allowed to warp off. That is the most important change that needs to be done. Multiply their EHP if needed but dont allow a Titan to hit&run!
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Yaay
Reikoku KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.05.21 14:09:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Bonny Lee I dont like the effect of the DD mentioned in this thread. This does in no case eliminate the hit&run of titans.
Scenario: If the first titan places his DD(the new one) well, every other titan in system has 20seconds to fire his DD on the same fleet without any ship of it being able to get away. With the increasing amount of titans i cant see why an alliance shouldnt fire lots of DDs on the same fleet destroying every module on them leaving them gimped to any conventional fleet without any chance to get away cause 20secs are enough to totally bubble them down after the DD.
If a titan is going deploy a DD it should be forced to stay on field and not being allowed to warp off. That is the most important change that needs to be done. Multiply their EHP if needed but dont allow a Titan to hit&run!
Of course it can die if it doesn't have support, and it should be that way.
In response to the direct damage guy. We've got 1,000 ships in game that do direct damage, what is unique about another one, even if it's damage is massive?
DD is a unique and tactical weapon. It should stay that way. However, it's affect at the moment is just ridiculous. So the real question is, how do you revamp the DD to have catestrophic effect while not just blowing ships up. I think the proposed solution is about as good as it gets.
I can not stress how much I like the fact that this actually usher's in the desire for t3 ships and goods and gives people a reason to choose b/t t2 and t3 goods.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Zostera
Minmatar Honour Bound Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.05.21 14:29:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Yaay
I can not stress how much I like the fact that this actually usher's in the desire for t3 ships and goods and gives people a reason to choose b/t t2 and t3 goods.
T3 is currently beyond the reach of the majority of the player base, and may be so for a very long time indeed. Further to that the baseline cost CCP has indicated it would prefer the T3 to sell at is 300-400mil isk, so it will be considerably more expensive than the current standard for fleet warfare i.e. a Sniper or RR BS.
So I have some questions...
Are you suggesting that T3 becomes the only ship which can survive your heat DD with active modules(assuming the DD's are stacked as is likely to be the case)?
And
If so how do you propose PoS warfare be carried out with T3 cruisers, since these are likely the only ones to survive at the gate?
Zos
Vote Mazzilliu 09 CSM |
Yaay
Reikoku KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.05.22 18:44:00 -
[166]
Originally by: Zostera
Originally by: Yaay
I can not stress how much I like the fact that this actually usher's in the desire for t3 ships and goods and gives people a reason to choose b/t t2 and t3 goods.
T3 is currently beyond the reach of the majority of the player base, and may be so for a very long time indeed. Further to that the baseline cost CCP has indicated it would prefer the T3 to sell at is 300-400mil isk, so it will be considerably more expensive than the current standard for fleet warfare i.e. a Sniper or RR BS.
So I have some questions...
Are you suggesting that T3 becomes the only ship which can survive your heat DD with active modules(assuming the DD's are stacked as is likely to be the case)?
And
If so how do you propose PoS warfare be carried out with T3 cruisers, since these are likely the only ones to survive at the gate?
I hear t3 guns and mods are in our future, try reading up on things. And ffs, quit being so 1 dimensional in every argument.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Gotrek65
Pyrrhus Sicarii Intrepid Crossing
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Posted - 2009.05.22 21:47:00 -
[167]
supported
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Psi Klone
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Posted - 2009.05.24 04:54:00 -
[168]
I give my support to the OP's suggestion. This is one of the most logical and realistic fixes I've seen on the forums.
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111010110
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Posted - 2009.05.24 23:57:00 -
[169]
This is all moot ya know. It isn't going to change anything, we'll just overcompensate by bringing more and more to achieve the same results and sentiment of zero risk exposure we all seek.
Before going into changing features on the ship or the weapon, start thinking of ways to stop us from overcompensating purposefully.
One titan is a glass cannon, two is a tactic, two with a backup is sound tactics, but the minimum of a dozen here and there we bring on now is strategy. Deliberate strategy by players. That is just silly.
We can change to a focus on racial EW, heat damage, whatever, when push comes to shove we will do what we always do: bring more to overcompensate to negate any room for flexibility. Until we make Titans something of a knife that cuts both ways on the infrastructure they serve nothing will make us players behave any differently.
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Seras Ronon
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Posted - 2009.05.25 01:02:00 -
[170]
Supported |
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Dri Kulsane
Body Count Inc. Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.05.25 10:04:00 -
[171]
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Lanzinator
Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.05.25 10:09:00 -
[172]
Edited by: Lanzinator on 25/05/2009 10:09:30 good ideas!
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Yaay
Reikoku KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.05.25 12:01:00 -
[173]
Edited by: Yaay on 25/05/2009 12:07:21
Originally by: 111010110 This is all moot ya know. It isn't going to change anything, we'll just overcompensate by bringing more and more to achieve the same results and sentiment of zero risk exposure we all seek.
Before going into changing features on the ship or the weapon, start thinking of ways to stop us from overcompensating purposefully.
One titan is a glass cannon, two is a tactic, two with a backup is sound tactics, but the minimum of a dozen here and there we bring on now is strategy. Deliberate strategy by players. That is just silly.
We can change to a focus on racial EW, heat damage, whatever, when push comes to shove we will do what we always do: bring more to overcompensate to negate any room for flexibility. Until we make Titans something of a knife that cuts both ways on the infrastructure they serve nothing will make us players behave any differently.
That's a Problem of 2 things in eve, it's economy, and it's Sov. If you were to fix the economy so that losing a ship actually hurt you financially, even a frigate to more of an extent than it does now, you'd see progress. If you then fixed the Sov so that defending entities actually had reason to fear losing their space easily, then you'd see even more progress.
Take a look at the alliance size rankings, you'll find about 70 alliances over 500 members. How many of those do you see holding a pocket of space. Maybe 20.
Everyone wanted the game to be a cookie cutter cake walk were combat was more about how many ships can I throw at you rather than how will you fight against me. DD were added to compensate for this massive failure, but what happened was, nobody cared about the ships they were losing, only the ability to have the fun fights that fleets could now have with 30 backup ships per pilot waiting. DD ended good fights for most attacking alliances, so rather than attack, most would rather defend now.
Mom's and Titans were added, but the Dev's didn't think about the rule of 10 which means anything major and new added should always be 10x more than what is currently a high price. Titans were meant to be alliance goals, yet now you have random people self funding them on a whim. Imagine if they cost 400 bil rather than 40, you wouldn't see them in the same light. Now, every alliance has several, but their original intent was for a select few... those willing to work together.
Truth be told, I don't blame the devs for trying to make money. I do blame them for not trying to find a balance between what they once had and what they've created. What's really a shame is that now that we have these 1000v1000 player epic and potential fights and servers that can actually hold them, nobody is willing to take them because of the ****ed up mechanics. It's almost funny that the dev's can't hide behind the lag issue anymore, now they have to address their own errors, and that's going to be a much bigger challenge. |
Hatch Penguin
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Posted - 2009.05.25 12:50:00 -
[174]
I'm really a bit amazed. Nothing in this thread makes any difference.
It all comes down to "I'm suggesting this and that because when push comes to shove my guys are fine because it already is our strategy to pump over a dozen titans into a system to achieve objectives without a fight. Once the mechanisms change we can just bring a dozen more to achieve the same result".
What is the real problem here? The ship, the doomsday, or players?
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Solo Player
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Posted - 2009.05.25 13:04:00 -
[175]
I might support this if the Vuk could re-phrase his OP to make clear, exactly what he is proposing. As it is, all I get are a general idea (make supercaps stronger), some links to other ideas and suggestions to maybe do this OR that or why not this, too?
P.S.: Is it really still possible to edit an OP in this section? |
Yaay
Reikoku KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.05.25 17:31:00 -
[176]
Originally by: Hatch Penguin I'm really a bit amazed. Nothing in this thread makes any difference.
It all comes down to "I'm suggesting this and that because when push comes to shove my guys are fine because it already is our strategy to pump over a dozen titans into a system to achieve objectives without a fight. Once the mechanisms change we can just bring a dozen more to achieve the same result".
What is the real problem here? The ship, the doomsday, or players?
You're assuming this is the only change expected. It's not, It's one on a long road to 0.0 recovery and revamp. However, it makes no sence to pool in sov mechanics, insurance, ratting, POS and all the other crap into this thread. You start small, and work one problem at a time.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Hatch Penguin
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Posted - 2009.05.25 19:08:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Yaay
Originally by: Hatch Penguin I'm really a bit amazed. Nothing in this thread makes any difference.
It all comes down to "I'm suggesting this and that because when push comes to shove my guys are fine because it already is our strategy to pump over a dozen titans into a system to achieve objectives without a fight. Once the mechanisms change we can just bring a dozen more to achieve the same result".
What is the real problem here? The ship, the doomsday, or players?
You're assuming this is the only change expected. It's not, It's one on a long road to 0.0 recovery and revamp. However, it makes no sence to pool in sov mechanics, insurance, ratting, POS and all the other crap into this thread. You start small, and work one problem at a time.
No, it's not an assumption. 0.0 in more respects then one needs a complete revamp. It would - as Digi pointed out elsewhere - a complete expansion to do that, this however is not commercially feasible. 0.0 is just not that big of a niche to warrant such a marketing investment.
So, yes, it'll have to be step by step.
The first danger of this is that we have often seen CCP come up with something only to implement it at a much later time when circumstances and player behaviour have changed so much that the changes come across as "kneejerk" behaviour, instead of a sound gradual approach.
The second danger is that both on a technical level, as well as on a customer level (behaviour) everything is so complex and interconnected that doing things step by step gets very close to coming off as somewhat incompatible with CCP's recently adopted development method. While it enables them to pump out a lot in relatively short time, it does not provide much depth or a lot of room for preventing issues that arise from complexity.
Having said that, we all know CCP wants to do a good job, I just worry a bit that it is vulnerable to dropping pieces during design or implementation. Look at Apocrypha expansion for example, or the recent jumpbug drama.
Ya know, as long as all those little steps on that big road deal just with features and not with how we (ab)use them and go nuts with them, it's just pushing the problem ahead of us. At least that's how it feels to me. Besides that, by the time a small step hits us, we're well beyond the situation during which that step was designed.
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Butter Dog
The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.05.27 21:32:00 -
[178]
area of effect weapons will just be stacked on top of each other, whatever they are, to the point we have exactly the same problem as we have now with titans
focused anti-capital weapons are the way to go :) ----------
AKA 'Bitter Dog'
Failing at everything he does in EvE since '05 |
Zostera
Minmatar Honour Bound Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.05.28 12:02:00 -
[179]
Let us assume a small to medium sized alliance wants to carve a system or two off from a bigger powerblock for itself.
Also assume the systems are jammed and the defenders have a Titan or two.
Right now it works pretty much along the lines of this... Attackers have to use sub-caps under a jammer, defenders DD them at every opportunity, ideally on jump in, and the sub-capital fleet gets massacred or cannot effectively stay on grid at the jammer due to the two titans poking their noses out of the shield...invasion over.
Change Titans to an anti-capital platform.
Attackers deploy their sub-capital fleet to hit the jammer, defenders must deploy a sub-capital fleet to defend it. End result - a big fight for everyone. Numbers and blobs might happen, but at least it's a chance and good attacker with well thought out tactics can overcome the numbers.
Jammer goes down, attackers caps jump in. Defenders cap jump in. Defenders decide to deploy Titans to do horrible stuff to attackers caps. Motherships are deployed to rep the Titans, attackers support tries to tackle it and get warp in for it's dreads or they snipe. Dreads stay out of siege and get reps. With good tactics they might win and kill a Titan. If the defenders blob then the attackers maybe should have brought more people through good use of diplomacy. Either way, a big fight happens.
Titan's can't just BOOM the hostile sub-caps off the field and the change introduces effective counters to any tactic employed by either side.
More fighting.
More fun.
Role for motherships.
No more "200 people sitting around for 2 hours then jumping into a bubbled gate and getting DD'ed en-masse".
Yes this is a pretty simplistic outline, but I think it is fundamentally sound. And yes fiddle about with Titan hitpoints and mothership repping and so on to create a nice synergy between the classes. End result, sub-caps fight sub-caps and caps and supercaps fight caps and supercaps. Depoly either and there is a counter. Don't want your caps focused on by a Titan or two, then bring sub-caps and force your opponent to do the same, slow the pace of war for sure. Want a quick war and fast tower kills, then deploy your caps, but do it knowing that Titans will be a threat and obvious risk.
Zos
Vote Mazzilliu 09 CSM |
Yaay
Reikoku KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.05.28 18:38:00 -
[180]
Edited by: Yaay on 28/05/2009 18:40:39 Edited by: Yaay on 28/05/2009 18:38:05
Originally by: Butter Dog area of effect weapons will just be stacked on top of each other, whatever they are, to the point we have exactly the same problem as we have now with titans
focused anti-capital weapons are the way to go :)
Maybe this wasn't clarified, or maybe it needs to be addressed differently, dunno:
Titans are immune to Ewar.... this is not Ewar. Hence, Titans can hurt other Titans by hitting each other with these effects. 20% chance to lose a DD on a titan b/c another one DD you is a good reason not to stack these up. That said, It's an absolute must that Moms be allowed to repair Heat damaged ships per my thread. Otherwise, if a titan lost a DD, it would have to unfit, and transport to a station to get refit, or have multiple backups in it's hanger to refit..... and That honestly wouldn't be so bad IMO.
Keep in mind, a Titan would be stuck on grid for a limited time, so it's not like you can warp one in, fire, warp another in, fire... there would be a series of delays involved to launch constant DD.
So to say people are stacking DD is to also Say stacking DD gimp titans more. This also means to use a titan to save other caps is litterally a last ditch effort, not a common occurance.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
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Butter Dog
Gallente The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.05.28 18:47:00 -
[181]
Originally by: Yaay Edited by: Yaay on 28/05/2009 18:40:39 Edited by: Yaay on 28/05/2009 18:38:05
Originally by: Butter Dog area of effect weapons will just be stacked on top of each other, whatever they are, to the point we have exactly the same problem as we have now with titans
focused anti-capital weapons are the way to go :)
Maybe this wasn't clarified, or maybe it needs to be addressed differently, dunno:
Titans are immune to Ewar.... this is not Ewar. Hence, Titans can hurt other Titans by hitting each other with these effects. 20% chance to lose a DD on a titan b/c another one DD you is a good reason not to stack these up. That said, It's an absolute must that Moms be allowed to repair Heat damaged ships per my thread. Otherwise, if a titan lost a DD, it would have to unfit, and transport to a station to get refit, or have multiple backups in it's hanger to refit..... and That honestly wouldn't be so bad IMO.
Keep in mind, a Titan would be stuck on grid for a limited time, so it's not like you can warp one in, fire, warp another in, fire... there would be a series of delays involved to launch constant DD.
So to say people are stacking DD is to also Say stacking DD gimp titans more. This also means to use a titan to save other caps is litterally a last ditch effort, not a common occurance.
The main principal we disagree on is the ship class titans are used to counter.
I don't believe a large area-of-effect weapon which effectively disables hundreds of pilots at the click of a button can *ever* be considered balanced, or needed. Or fun. In short, I don't agree it should be an anti-support ship with an area of effect weapon.
I believe the titan would be more balanced in an anti-capital role, with its logistics capabilities fully intact. And it would still be tactically extremely useful, not to mention fun.
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AKA 'Bitter Dog'
Failing at everything he does in EvE since '05 |
Butter Dog
Gallente The Littlest Hobos Ushra'Khan
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Posted - 2009.05.28 18:49:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Zostera Let us assume a small to medium sized alliance wants to carve a system or two off from a bigger powerblock for itself.
Also assume the systems are jammed and the defenders have a Titan or two.
Right now it works pretty much along the lines of this... Attackers have to use sub-caps under a jammer, defenders DD them at every opportunity, ideally on jump in, and the sub-capital fleet gets massacred or cannot effectively stay on grid at the jammer due to the two titans poking their noses out of the shield...invasion over.
Change Titans to an anti-capital platform.
Attackers deploy their sub-capital fleet to hit the jammer, defenders must deploy a sub-capital fleet to defend it. End result - a big fight for everyone. Numbers and blobs might happen, but at least it's a chance and good attacker with well thought out tactics can overcome the numbers.
Jammer goes down, attackers caps jump in. Defenders cap jump in. Defenders decide to deploy Titans to do horrible stuff to attackers caps. Motherships are deployed to rep the Titans, attackers support tries to tackle it and get warp in for it's dreads or they snipe. Dreads stay out of siege and get reps. With good tactics they might win and kill a Titan. If the defenders blob then the attackers maybe should have brought more people through good use of diplomacy. Either way, a big fight happens.
Titan's can't just BOOM the hostile sub-caps off the field and the change introduces effective counters to any tactic employed by either side.
More fighting.
More fun.
Role for motherships.
No more "200 people sitting around for 2 hours then jumping into a bubbled gate and getting DD'ed en-masse".
Yes this is a pretty simplistic outline, but I think it is fundamentally sound. And yes fiddle about with Titan hitpoints and mothership repping and so on to create a nice synergy between the classes. End result, sub-caps fight sub-caps and caps and supercaps fight caps and supercaps. Depoly either and there is a counter. Don't want your caps focused on by a Titan or two, then bring sub-caps and force your opponent to do the same, slow the pace of war for sure. Want a quick war and fast tower kills, then deploy your caps, but do it knowing that Titans will be a threat and obvious risk.
Yes, thats pretty much what I was thinking too!
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AKA 'Bitter Dog'
Failing at everything he does in EvE since '05 |
Intaglio
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Posted - 2009.05.28 19:13:00 -
[183]
All that does is shift the problem to the next problem.
First of all we would immediately switch back to the good old strategy of "all hands on deck and through that gate" (and keep in mind that these days we have a lot more people then before to pump into a system). We still need something to keep us on our toes and away from the easy road of mass conventional ship blobs so we do not have to fight (or even so we cannot fight because **** lags out with 1500+ people).
Secondly it will make us push even harder on the capital front, making us require more and more and more capitals to do more grinding. At the same time we will spam more pos to force more grinding. And we will build more and more titans because we face an even stronger capital ship trend.
All the ideas sound nice, but you have to put it in a perspective of how mad people really are. Let's look at an example :P Do you think MM or anyone up north would scale down their focus on titans and capitals in general with such changes? No, the strategem changes so they adapt. The nett result is that - while the paradigm has shifted - the strategic need arises for more pilots in conventional, capital and supercapital ships.
I think this guy has a big point. "Titans are like nuclear weapons, except they cause zero fallout so there is zero reason to think about using them twice."
They are fine in small to medium environments, but we got to make it hurt to use them, so that we will not deliberately go nuts as it would be shooting ourselves in the foot.
Although, in this idea I do like the hindthought of going nuts and burning both hostiles and your own space, scorched earth or something like that.
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Zostera
Minmatar Honour Bound Sc0rched Earth
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Posted - 2009.05.29 00:52:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Intaglio All that does is shift the problem to the next problem.
First of all we would immediately switch back to the good old strategy of "all hands on deck and through that gate" (and keep in mind that these days we have a lot more people then before to pump into a system). We still need something to keep us on our toes and away from the easy road of mass conventional ship blobs so we do not have to fight (or even so we cannot fight because **** lags out with 1500+ people).
However many people are attacking or defending it always boils down to initially jumping through a gate. Even with the current DD mechanic we see some factions stuffing 1400 people plus Titans into local to defend a system from time to time.
However let us not forget that the vast majority of battles in EvE involve 300 pilots or less, and the work done on improving server performance means those fights are generally pretty lag free. Removing the current DD mechanic would mean those fights are likely to happen more often under a jammer.
Even in the larger fights, better to have a laggy fight than no fight at all?
Originally by: Intaglio Secondly it will make us push even harder on the capital front, making us require more and more and more capitals to do more grinding. At the same time we will spam more pos to force more grinding. And we will build more and more titans because we face an even stronger capital ship trend.
People are already doing this, "capitals are the new battleships" is often said but maybe overstates the case, however Dreads and carriers have an effective counter in themselves.
With regard to tower spam, well it already happens with towers on every moon in 50 moon systems.
Whatever you do with Titans, those two facts remain.... numbers count, and you need the 51%. Server performance will continue to improve to manage the former, and sov mechanic changes will take care of the last. Let us hope that those things are considered alongside a supercap redesign.
More fights, less dissapointing boom.
Zos
Vote Mazzilliu 09 CSM |
Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Posted - 2009.05.29 03:29:00 -
[185]
Well Vuk, there's alot of decent thoughts, and well presented.. but it doesn't seem complete yet, and tbh, it seems to be quite far from complete. You're on the right track, and a nice compilation (I like how you pulled in Yaay's idea and gave him credit for it, for example).
I'll elaborate;
HP buff on all supercaps - I think most players agree that this is needed. We start to see people that even set up traps for titans, one of the latest ones comes to mind, where support that are one-two jumps out won't even reach the kill in time to get to fire on it/get on the killmail. It's pretty ridicilous considering the time/isk investment for those ships. In this example you're just stating something necessary - /support on this.
Mothership vs Titan roles - This is where your ideas arn't really 'complete' or halfdone right now. The mothership idea is basicly do let it play more of a logistic role, which is interesting/intriguing, but you don't provide a full solution to it.
In the titan case, you provide Yaay's idea, which is interesting as well but still not complete. By removing/nerfing the DD, it affect alot of players skill training, not just the current role. If it's removed, it needs to have an important new role for the titans. The suggested idea is interesting, but more like the remote ECM burst - an o****-button instead of an offensive weapon. Would you train it to lv5? I'd get it to lv4 and no further.
It'd need some more thoughts on what titans would get instead, since well yah, most of us agrees that the DD is over the top today. But titans are damn squishy, and having "just" the portal, and the new idea.. would reduce them to a logistic ships. They'd be a passive ship that sat at POS, just like the motherships.
As for the Olympians.. that does sounds like a role the titans could fill. We don't need new supercaps, fix the ones we have first. And if titans loses their DD, why not give them this role?
So what am I saying? The ideas you present are good, but unless it has a "full package", I can't give you any support/approval. It's quite massive changes to the pilots.
I'll give you that I like how you are thinking of ways to make the motherships more aggressive, and instead of giving them damage, to give them more health/a unique repair/support role. It might just put them on the field again.
Finish your ideas, give a full package, and if it seems reasonable (you're on the right track), I'll definately support it. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen. |
Yaay
Reikoku KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.05.29 14:42:00 -
[186]
Originally by: Misanth
In the titan case, you provide Yaay's idea, which is interesting as well but still not complete. By removing/nerfing the DD, it affect alot of players skill training, not just the current role. If it's removed, it needs to have an important new role for the titans. The suggested idea is interesting, but more like the remote ECM burst - an o****-button instead of an offensive weapon. Would you train it to lv5? I'd get it to lv4 and no further.
You wouldn't Train DD 5 if the difference was 40 heat damage vs 32 heat dmg at lvl 4? That's like titan pilots now choosing lvl 4 DD, which is incredibly easy to tank vs lvl 5 DD which is much harder.
In a lot of ways, this Type of DD would be nothing like an ECCM burst. It has 2 lingering affect, and 2 obnoxious effects. It's still dealing damage, but massively reduced... Depending on the DD type, it Might not even make it through a BS shields. Heat damage is not a quick fix which means people are going to struggle to overload their weapons and MWD's in hairy situations. Neuting is going to provide more of a role for minmatar and caldari boats in fleets, since atm, they have the worst sniping abilities. And warp scrambling is going to avoid hit and run capabilities if you do get hit by the DD, allowing mop up fleets to get on grid and react immediately and to some good effect while exposing the titan for more time after a DD is fired. That to me is the greatest effect since you will likely never see a pack of rouge titans Launching DD after DD with little or no support fleet anymore.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
arbiter reborn
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Posted - 2009.05.29 18:59:00 -
[187]
absolutley and completely yes, super caps need reajusting now, i say olimpians should have that emeryan age vid wepon
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Karlemgne
Tides Of War
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Posted - 2009.05.30 08:41:00 -
[188]
As a non-alliance pilot I would like to say, hell ****ing no. The eve-server seems to be becoming super-capitals online.
There are too many of these ships already, there are completely unbalanced in their favor--unless of course you have fleets of hundreds of ships or dozens and dozens of capitals.
No ****ing thanks. My sig don't fracking work. |
arbiter reborn
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Posted - 2009.05.30 14:23:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Butter Dog
Yes, thats pretty much what I was thinking too!
an anti cap role would just make titans the new dreds, the area of effect poroposal is sound, it would be a big decision to deploy titans after a change like this, as it should be, the problem really is multiple dds, and this also covers that issue
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Ivan Zhuk
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Posted - 2009.06.03 08:36:00 -
[190]
A way i think you could set a Titan to be a capital killer is to give it some sort of weapon that increases damage with time. So for instance first volley it deals 5000 damage second volley 7500 then 15000 then 30000 and so on. And to keep the titan limited from a rediculous ship do not allow remote repping while doing this. Also add in something where it cant be used on control towers because of the forcefield. That way you can create a ship that eats other cap ships alive, isnt going to become the new dreadnaught for towers, and isnt rediculous because of the lack of remote rep.... however it is worth it because of the ability to destroy other cap ships every 50 seconds
of course this would require the titan have increased hit points so that as soon as its deployed it isnt demolished.
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Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
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Posted - 2009.06.03 16:23:00 -
[191]
Originally by: Yaay
Originally by: Misanth *snip*
You wouldn't Train DD 5 if the difference was 40 heat damage vs 32 heat dmg at lvl 4? That's like titan pilots now choosing lvl 4 DD, which is incredibly easy to tank vs lvl 5 DD which is much harder.
In a lot of ways, this Type of DD would be nothing like an ECCM burst. It has 2 lingering affect, and 2 obnoxious effects. It's still dealing damage, but massively reduced... Depending on the DD type, it Might not even make it through a BS shields. Heat damage is not a quick fix which means people are going to struggle to overload their weapons and MWD's in hairy situations. Neuting is going to provide more of a role for minmatar and caldari boats in fleets, since atm, they have the worst sniping abilities. And warp scrambling is going to avoid hit and run capabilities if you do get hit by the DD, allowing mop up fleets to get on grid and react immediately and to some good effect while exposing the titan for more time after a DD is fired. That to me is the greatest effect since you will likely never see a pack of rouge titans Launching DD after DD with little or no support fleet anymore.
Fair enough. I didn't want to go into discussing heat in general, but a second reason I dislike this is because heat is very irregular. Just as you can get very lucky with drops when you kill someone, you can as well get very unlucky.
Heat as it is is very unstable and something I dislike personally in it's current shape. There was a recent situation where I heated my guns in a fight, and for several minutes they just went on fine with very low damage. Next fight they nearly shut off instantly and I could barely heat at all.
In huge fleet fights heat plays less role vs small scale combat, and ironicly, one of the best tools when you fight outnumbers (your fleet is small/medium, hostile is the blob), is heat. If you can utilize mobility and range to your advantage, combined with some heat/alpha, you can overcome a stronger force. In that regards, the anti-heat titan would be another tool for the blob to be stronger, with no brains involved.
That's more an issue with heat overall, than your suggestion tho, so I left that out of my previous post. I'd like to see the basic heat 'survive' a bit longer, bit less predictable, so a high-skilled Thermo-pilot can utilize it on/off/longer in prolonged fights. A fixed heat damage number from the DD wouldn't make this better. It'd just add more damage to an unpredictable, but good/useful skill/tool.
I still think it's more reasonable to make the titans an anti-cap ship than an anti-support ship. To be able to do that, it needs some survivability as well. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen. |
Yaay
Reikoku KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.06.04 04:02:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Misanth stuff
I think you misunderstand the intent completely. The intent of this fix is 3 fold.
#1 it give's smaller groups a chance versus a larger group while still requiring a fight no matter what. That means that Titans are tactical decisions rather than 20 seconds of welp deciders. Even in a successful DD, you at best have incapacitated a fleet, you haven't killed it. That at least provides them a chance to fight back and/or recover. That makes sense when you're speaking of Titan's changing the course of warfare.
#2 It brings sanity to Capitals and Titans in particular. Damage remains so that carrier fighter blobs are affected. Heat has a more crippling affect on Dreads than the current DD does, as does the Neuting. However, there's no real way to DD a cap fleet into oblivioun before counter dropping because any one Titan would be insane to Risk itself infront of a dread pack w/o a support fleet. DD while a friendly dread fleet is on grid is another problem because you run the risk of affecting your own immobile dreads and more importantly, your carriers which can save you.
It also means you can't stack DD to get a titan out because 1, their cap is affected which affects jumping out of system, 2 they're warp scrambled temp, which kinda works against bailing them, and 3, heat damage is an insain risk on a friendly titan.
So Titan Spamming is hindered greatly without the much greater acceptance of risk.
#3 The revival of fleet warfare. Delve war 2, 3, 4, whatever is a good example, but everywhere it's seen. People are forgoing even fights for the Use Of Titan's. Goons 2 days ago choose to Use 6 titans instead of 220 man fleet including carriers and dreads against 110 standard fleet and 80 hacs. The excuse is what's so sad, it's about griefing, not good fights. 0.0 is about good fights, People are fed up with having to deal with the constant threat of Titans because it creates far less action. Nobody in this game cares about losing a battleship anymore, Insurance failures has assured that. What people care about losing the opportunity for fights.
Blobbing is bad yes, But I'd rather take a 200 man fleet against a 300 man fleet knowing that whether we use Titans or they do, It won't be the only deciding factor in a fight, only a strategic tool.
And a bonus 4th* The days of nano Titans would finally be over, I mean seriously, WTF is wrong with a dev not getting how fail this is.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
BaronCannibal
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Posted - 2009.06.11 01:38:00 -
[193]
Such an important topic deserves to go up |
arbiter reformed
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.06.12 12:38:00 -
[194]
bump for awesomeness
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Lunewraith
Ministry of War
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Posted - 2009.06.12 13:09:00 -
[195]
Supporting this. Not sure how debated this is but in an age of multiple Titans and DD, would this be plausible? Make the titan be able to fit a Jump Portal Generator OR Doomsday weapon. Make the ship have one role, either offensive or support but not be able to do both. Might make battles a bit more tactical and reduce the incidence of multiple DD's.
Do a little work, get a free PLEX card! |
Kytanos Termek
Darkstorm Command Ethereal Dawn
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Posted - 2009.06.12 18:38:00 -
[196]
Supported.
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arbiter reformed
Minmatar Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2009.06.16 19:40:00 -
[197]
bamp for a great idea
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Batolemaeus
Caldari Free-Space-Ranger Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.06.16 22:09:00 -
[198]
If this is not a reason to rework Titans, then what is?
A Moros got taken into structure by those dd. ----------------------------------------------
Originally by: CCP Prism X In New Eden, EVE wins you.
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KIAHicks
Caldari Black Nova Corp KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.06.17 16:03:00 -
[199]
Edited by: KIAHicks on 17/06/2009 16:07:17 I've not played eve for a good year or two and at the time I went inactive Titans were not too common, a few alliances might field 2 of them at the same time. Even then though, the DD made fights rather boring (once the novelty wore off).
The typical fight was X vs N, warp in, get DD'd, fight over. Or, 200 hostiles warp in, they get DD'd, fight over. Either way, the fleet BS/support have little to do aside from mop up those few that escaped the DD, who are in no way likley to offer a decent fight having lost so much of their fleet.
This, regardless of whether you're on the winning or losing side, is not imo all that much fun.
Having returned to the game recently and seeing just how many Titans are now in the game and can be fielded in one go, I agree with most posters in this thread that there needs to be some change.
Yaays idea has a lot of merit. It still enables DDs to be powerful when used tactically, yet they're no longer going to end a fight a few seconds after it has begun. At least, not without still allowing both sides to engage and blow each other up for a bit.
Whatever the final change is (I hope there is one) DD's need to lose their direct damage capability and instead influence/shape the combat field in a different way.
On a related note, can we get an increase in the jump bridge range of titans? From 2.5km to 5 or 10?
DD usage shouldn't be limited by the grid either, it should be distance based.
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Angelica Tharax
Decadence. RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.06.17 19:23:00 -
[200]
supported
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Kiri Serrensun
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Posted - 2009.06.17 19:39:00 -
[201]
Originally by: Intaglio All that does is shift the problem to the next problem.
First of all we would immediately switch back to the good old strategy of "all hands on deck and through that gate" (and keep in mind that these days we have a lot more people then before to pump into a system). We still need something to keep us on our toes and away from the easy road of mass conventional ship blobs so we do not have to fight (or even so we cannot fight because **** lags out with 1500+ people).
That still happens, it's just the blobs now consist of DD-tanked battleships and HIC's. |
Sadumon
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc. Balance of Judgment
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Posted - 2009.06.18 02:09:00 -
[202]
Supported
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Valerie Burn
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Posted - 2009.06.19 01:14:00 -
[203]
/signed |
drmurda
Arkons of Myth Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.06.23 21:38:00 -
[204]
./Agreed! mainly on the MoM topic- in some way they need a buff, dont care if its tank/dps/or even RRing
CCP! - FIX OUR MOMS!!!
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BaronCannibal
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Posted - 2009.06.29 07:11:00 -
[205]
With so many topics about the mom /tytan`s problem still no comment from CCP....Is it worth posting those problems?
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Uronksur Suth
Sankkasen Mining Conglomerate Libertas Fidelitas
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Posted - 2009.06.29 21:27:00 -
[206]
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Mos7Wan7ed
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Posted - 2009.06.29 21:52:00 -
[207]
THEY DON'T NEED BUFFS!!!! THEY NEED TO BE USED IN THE WAY THEY WERE INTENDED.
Quote: - They die so easily its not even funny.
They are not solo pwnmobiles they are support ships. you wouldn't take a Oneiros or a Falcon on a solo roam would you? Supper caps are support ships made to assist off grid more then on grid of a conventional capital fleet. They support with either bonuses like the titan or with massive swarms of fighters like the mother ships.
think of it this way. would you want to put wheels on a aircraft carrier and have it drive on land and directly support tanks and troops where it would be a huge lumbering target? Or, maybe would you keep it 5 miles off the coast and hundreds of miles out from the war zone delivering death from afar? If your answer is death from afar please, then why would you want to do this with a mother ship then?
The biggest effect Titans can have on a large fleet engagements are not the Doomsday's, its the fleet bonuses it can supply to the fleet, and the logistic support of the titan bridge.
how often do you see titan death mails with gang links attached, or mother ships with clone vat bays? NEVER!
It would be absolutely scary to find a null sec alliance that understands how to use a super capital, and uses their super caps the way CCP intended.
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drmurda
Arkons of Myth Aggression.
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Posted - 2009.06.30 04:09:00 -
[208]
Originally by: Mos7Wan7ed THEY DON'T NEED BUFFS!!!! THEY NEED TO BE USED IN THE WAY THEY WERE INTENDED.
Quote: - They die so easily its not even funny.
They are not solo pwnmobiles they are support ships. you wouldn't take a Oneiros or a Falcon on a solo roam would you? Supper caps are support ships made to assist off grid more then on grid of a conventional capital fleet. They support with either bonuses like the titan or with massive swarms of fighters like the mother ships.
think of it this way. would you want to put wheels on a aircraft carrier and have it drive on land and directly support tanks and troops where it would be a huge lumbering target? Or, maybe would you keep it 5 miles off the coast and hundreds of miles out from the war zone delivering death from afar? If your answer is death from afar please, then why would you want to do this with a mother ship then?
The biggest effect Titans can have on a large fleet engagements are not the Doomsday's, its the fleet bonuses it can supply to the fleet, and the logistic support of the titan bridge.
how often do you see titan death mails with gang links attached, or mother ships with clone vat bays? NEVER!
It would be absolutely scary to find a null sec alliance that understands how to use a super capital, and uses their super caps the way CCP intended.
Fail
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Mrs Poontang
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Posted - 2009.06.30 04:53:00 -
[209]
Edited by: Mrs Poontang on 30/06/2009 04:56:19
Originally by: Mos7Wan7ed THEY DON'T NEED BUFFS!!!! THEY NEED TO BE USED IN THE WAY THEY WERE INTENDED.
Quote: - They die so easily its not even funny.
They are not solo pwnmobiles they are support ships. you wouldn't take a Oneiros or a Falcon on a solo roam would you? Supper caps are support ships made to assist off grid more then on grid of a conventional capital fleet. They support with either bonuses like the titan or with massive swarms of fighters like the mother ships.
think of it this way. would you want to put wheels on a aircraft carrier and have it drive on land and directly support tanks and troops where it would be a huge lumbering target? Or, maybe would you keep it 5 miles off the coast and hundreds of miles out from the war zone delivering death from afar? If your answer is death from afar please, then why would you want to do this with a mother ship then?
The biggest effect Titans can have on a large fleet engagements are not the Doomsday's, its the fleet bonuses it can supply to the fleet, and the logistic support of the titan bridge.
how often do you see titan death mails with gang links attached, or mother ships with clone vat bays? NEVER!
It would be absolutely scary to find a null sec alliance that understands how to use a super capital, and uses their super caps the way CCP intended.
What you don't get is that CCP has continuously enhanced the problem of blobbing. Now for most ship classes, this is bad, but not impossible to work against. For motherships especially, it is.
Inside of a cyno jammed system, Motherships do fine in their intended use. Outside of that, they cannot hold up well at all. Unlike titans, Mom's don't have a DD saving grace. They are an on field tool if you want their full effect.
The problem with that is, 10 dreads focused fire can PoP a mom quite fast. 20 Dreads can break it fast even if it's receiving significant remote reps. 30 or more dreads and you're talking 30 second death.
YES, IT'S A PROBLEM WITH BLOBING.
But more to the point, for a mom, it's also a show of it's flaws. Titans to a lesser extent unless they forgo the proposed changes in which case they'll be just as suceptable. Moms cannot hold up at all on the front lines outside of very isolated situations. They are far from useful in any capital engagements, and they're just a joke when used outside of a jammed system.
Now I differ from most. I hate Remote Repair, especially on carriers with their huge range boost. I think spider tanking is a shameful cry for why people choose to blob in cap warfare. I would rather mom's get a significant bonus to personal tanking to make up for their lacking atm.
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Pajama Sam
Copia-WarRages Armaments
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Posted - 2009.06.30 05:25:00 -
[210]
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Yaay
The Players Club
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Posted - 2009.06.30 05:40:00 -
[211]
Originally by: Mos7Wan7ed THEY DON'T NEED BUFFS!!!! THEY NEED TO BE USED IN THE WAY THEY WERE INTENDED.
Quote: - They die so easily its not even funny.
They are not solo pwnmobiles they are support ships. you wouldn't take a Oneiros or a Falcon on a solo roam would you? Supper caps are support ships made to assist off grid more then on grid of a conventional capital fleet. They support with either bonuses like the titan or with massive swarms of fighters like the mother ships.
think of it this way. would you want to put wheels on a aircraft carrier and have it drive on land and directly support tanks and troops where it would be a huge lumbering target? Or, maybe would you keep it 5 miles off the coast and hundreds of miles out from the war zone delivering death from afar? If your answer is death from afar please, then why would you want to do this with a mother ship then?
The biggest effect Titans can have on a large fleet engagements are not the Doomsday's, its the fleet bonuses it can supply to the fleet, and the logistic support of the titan bridge.
how often do you see titan death mails with gang links attached, or mother ships with clone vat bays? NEVER!
It would be absolutely scary to find a null sec alliance that understands how to use a super capital, and uses their super caps the way CCP intended.
Yes guys, battle bestowers to the front lines, moms to the back.
I always spend 15-40 bil on a ship so that it can pos park. Get a fricking clue dude, all ships have a huge issue with hp and blobbing, moms just get the ass end of it. So you can either petition here for CCP to revamp their entire failure of a combat and 0.0 system immediately, or you can ask for a mom/titan revamp... I think the latter is more reasonable baby step.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Dave Meltdown
Capital Construction Inc.
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Posted - 2009.06.30 12:42:00 -
[212]
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Erik Steambottle
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Posted - 2009.07.04 10:12:00 -
[213]
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Market Ruler
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Posted - 2009.07.17 18:18:00 -
[214]
bumped b/c i care
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Space Pinata
Amarr Discount Napkin Industries
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Posted - 2009.07.17 21:03:00 -
[215]
Edited by: Space Pinata on 17/07/2009 21:07:09 Motherships don't make sense as frontline ships, they're more of a giant logistics / long range support ship (fighters).
This is not, however, an entertaining way to play.
I'd be all for buffing supercaps if there weren't so many titans in the game. As it is, titans need to be easy to kill, because they're no longer a rarity. When you can have a dozen titans on one side, it won't be an 'epic battle to kill one', you'll just have more titans warp in and nuke everything off the field to save the tackled titan, unless the titan goes down quickly.
Edit: Unless the proposed titan change came as well.
Personally, I'd make the doomsday a single target 100k damage with a ROF of a minute or so. This way, the titan can melt through battleships, but has to stay on the field and fight rather than nuking the field and warping out.
Or a titan class siege module, capital turrets that can track battleships and the ability to be RR'd (unlike a dread in siege), basically making the titan fight like an improved dreadnought designed to kill battleships. Though 6 capital turrets and a doomsday would work nicely against capitals, too...
Thinking it's role in battle compared to a dread would be similar to a mothership compared to a carrier. |
Bobbeh
Minmatar Navy of Xoc Wildly Inappropriate.
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Posted - 2009.07.22 08:49:00 -
[216]
Edited by: Bobbeh on 22/07/2009 08:49:53 Bumped because i love my wyvern and she doesnt feel the love!
I dont disagree carriers are logistics tools as much as support for dreads if and when regular fleets come rolling in. But since Ms's cant dock they suffer greatly as a tool to haul ships around with seeing as you have to have pilots on both sides to load and unload. Where with a carrier you can just dump em into your hangar and contract or trade them back ( or deliver if you have an office and they are corpmates). Also The Mother ship has no more bonus to repping than carriers, so its no more effective to rep with one. As well they also limited by the fact that they melt like butter on a stove when they get into a cap fight so why bring one at all.
I guess what im getting at is they have very little purpose and use in the game as it stands unless you wanna lose it. This is cause their survivability is soo low that its sad. All we are asking is to give MS's a purpose that is different than a carrier something they excel at other than drones. Finally for titans i would love to see battle titans with guns fitted and a siege mod warping in with the carriers and dreads and motherships to cap fights like a mixed fleet of caps. Instead of look a fleet of dreads spotted with carriers, who are really just dread pilots who are in training.
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iP0D
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Posted - 2009.07.22 12:17:00 -
[217]
Still no rewrite from Vuk though, maybe he is waiting until the meeting at fanfest? Or maybe with the upcoming winter expansion changing sovereignty there is a little sentiment that CCP have made up their minds internally already and trying to push any changes by players is a waste of energy?
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Varden Gage
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Posted - 2009.07.22 14:46:00 -
[218]
Edited by: Varden Gage on 22/07/2009 14:52:04
Originally by: Butter Dog I don't believe a large area-of-effect weapon which effectively disables hundreds of pilots at the click of a button can *ever* be considered balanced, or needed. Or fun. In short, I don't agree it should be an anti-support ship with an area of effect weapon.
I believe the titan would be more balanced in an anti-capital role, with its logistics capabilities fully intact. And it would still be tactically extremely useful, not to mention fun.
Agree 100 percent.
Mother Ships are in dire need of some enhancements. They aren't even close to being worth the cost in their present form, especially considering all the shortcomings that CCP has saddled them with. At a minimum, they need Tech II fighters and enhanced survivability. Otherwise, why bother at all?
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iP0D
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Posted - 2009.07.22 19:21:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Varden Gage Edited by: Varden Gage on 22/07/2009 14:52:04
Originally by: Butter Dog I don't believe a large area-of-effect weapon which effectively disables hundreds of pilots at the click of a button can *ever* be considered balanced, or needed. Or fun. In short, I don't agree it should be an anti-support ship with an area of effect weapon.
I believe the titan would be more balanced in an anti-capital role, with its logistics capabilities fully intact. And it would still be tactically extremely useful, not to mention fun.
Agree 100 percent.
Mother Ships are in dire need of some enhancements. They aren't even close to being worth the cost in their present form, especially considering all the shortcomings that CCP has saddled them with. At a minimum, they need Tech II fighters and enhanced survivability. Otherwise, why bother at all?
You quote an item on titans to emphasise support for mothership changes?
Odd I like the T2 fighters part however, though I would not like even more complexity and little crafting steps. Simple more specialised Fighter versions would be nice. Heavy Fighters, Interdiction Fighters, along those lines.
I also liked the idea that got floated around elsewhere on using the Remote ECM burst with scripts, to punch dreads out of siege and such.
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Insidious
Amarr coracao ardente Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2009.07.30 07:35:00 -
[220]
Edited by: Insidious on 30/07/2009 07:44:32
read the Supercaps thread on the wiki and overall I like it.
Here is what I would like to contribute;
Motherships; Sure give them 3x HP. The ability to fit 8xdmg Large guns 8xdmg Medium Guns 8xdmg Small Guns **** even 8xdmg missiles (prolly either 8xdmg large and/or one other to make 2 modules of diff class weapons, prolly not all 4-5dmg classes. Could unbalance small scale warfare vs motherships @ all 5 dmg classes, but shouldnt for 2-3 dmg classes)
Titans; Discouraging destructive DD away for additions to its function that disables ships/modules aoe stuff(s) sounds really really cool. Something like a massive 250km radius warp bubble that disables engines completely. Or race especific ie caldari dd disables targetting, etc..
** IMPORTANT: Keep the option to have destructive DD @ more cost discourage multiple DD's Less force fed total nerfs the better more smack on the ass nerf but look something nicer.. awwww
Olympians; Uber-Cap Killers dependant on moms. Initially I thought cool dangerous for other caps new form of PVP. COOOL. But then I thought oh god new feature on top of horrid current implementations.
Capital battles should be the crem de la creme of PVP most epic and all that its not right now and discouraging their use by the fear of uber turkey killer will discourage its use and encourage the forms of coalitions of power we're seeing today. Not good. (Yes even with Olympions` dependancey on moms) You gotta give the underdogs a little something.
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Enraged Mado
DEATHFUNK Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.30 16:29:00 -
[221]
Postin' cause my mommy feels unloved. -------
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Kailen Thorn
Interstellar Brotherhood of Gravediggers Privateer Alliance
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Posted - 2009.07.30 18:33:00 -
[222]
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Misanth
Reaper Industries
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Posted - 2009.08.17 14:10:00 -
[223]
Just want to point out that the "t2 fighters" idea for mothership is a pretty ridicilous 'fix'.
* Their damage potential today isn't an issue. The RR, damage etc works fine as it is today. * Fighters in fleet fights is a problem already, when I flew Carrier I recalled my 10 Fighters when the first got shot at. All was dead before they even initiated warp, some 5-10mins later. Sometimes they refuse to come back and you have to scream at them over and over. * Cost efficiency. In situations like above mentioned, you lose 20x15= 300mil for something that delivers nothing. Am pretty sure t2 Fighters would up that cost.. In comparison: a t2 fitted fully insured Carrier with 10 fighters would cost you as much to lose, as one mom-load of Fighters.
No t2 Fighters please. These things would be priority on my list atm; * Survivability. Dreads melt your face while you try to fend off the HIC's. It goes way too fast. * Tad overlapping the Survivability buff; local armor RR modules are way too weak. Repping 9.6k on a regular slaved armor tank mom with what, 600k raw armor HP before fleet bonuses.. every 22.5 sec? that's below 5% total armor repped per minute. Still a necessary module on moms, survival wise you want this if you get tackled, while waiting for your support fleet to come in. This module functions as a burst repper, and the stats should reflect it. More rep, faster cycle. It'll suck more cap which is negating the higher rep already. * Make the Clone Vat Bay useful. Most useless module in the game atm? On paper it's great. Move your mom, with ships, have pals clonejump to you. Woot! But wait now, I get immobile, and what happens if my friends die? Argh! This is just ****, needs work. Sorry, I have no suggestions.
There's probably alot more that could be discusssed. But in essence, this is some starters. No t2 Fighters, please no. Sort Clone Bay and survivability. Take it from there. - I'd tell you why but then I'll have to kill you. And to kill you I'd have to log in. And to log in I'd have to stop browsing these forums. Both you and me knows that'll never happen. |
Annalynn
saber rider and the star sheriffs
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Posted - 2009.08.19 14:58:00 -
[224]
This thread has gone quite far but i think most people forget something very important:
Since a few years most patches were pro blob and against small-scale warfare. A change is urgently needed. I dont see how any of the proposed changes are gonna improve the situation.
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Yaay
The Aggressors
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Posted - 2009.08.19 22:00:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Annalynn This thread has gone quite far but i think most people forget something very important:
Since a few years most patches were pro blob and against small-scale warfare. A change is urgently needed. I dont see how any of the proposed changes are gonna improve the situation.
These changes are geared more towards sup cap fixes than they are about blobs.
That said, DD today do not solve the blobbing problem, they're just as effective for the blobbers as they are for the blobbies.
The proposed change removes the stupid pro DD idea for fleets and replaces it with a Pro fleet approach. For every one instance today where not having a fleet cost a titan, there are 100s of instances where that's just not true. And that's the inherent problem.
The change listed provides chances for strategy, tactic, and counter tactic to titans that isn't so cut and dry as avoid or don't avoid and tank x amt of dmg. It will also change the role of all warfare, not just sub capital warfare, while helping to usher in the age of t3 Equipment and ships in mass.
As for the mothership changes, beyond extra HP, I really couldn't care about them. I personally feel carriers and moms are all wrong in their implementation in game atm. They are single handedly the most over powered and underpowered tool in game ATM. It really takes flying them and commanding them to understand that sentiment.
My hope is that even if they are not fixed soon, the changes to sov will be properly implemented which should expose carrier platforms for the frauds they are.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
marie blueprint
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Posted - 2009.08.20 03:03:00 -
[226]
yes more boost less nerf
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Phoenix492
M. Corp Engineering Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.08.22 10:22:00 -
[227]
FULLY AGREED WITH.
The Natural progression of skills is good
Frigates - Destroyer - Cruiser - Battlecruiser - Battleship - Carrier - Dread - Moms...
Then you need ALOT more training to get into a Titan. With the Olyimpian, its a stop-gap between Caps and Supercaps.
The whole Capital Fleet needs looking at. Carriers / Dreads / Supercaps.
T2 Modules are needed, T2 Ships are needed. And definitely a ship DESIGNED to take out Capital Ships.
When are the caps gonna get a looking at CCP?
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GRiMsReAPeR
inFluX. Maru Ka'ge
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Posted - 2009.08.25 07:28:00 -
[228]
signed
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Aekrhe
Republic University
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Posted - 2009.08.25 11:33:00 -
[229]
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Seryius
Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2009.08.25 15:17:00 -
[230]
I agree, actual supercaps must be revised. I also agree with the idea to add more types of caps/supercaps like Olympians. That's my proposal:
Titans: _ There can be only 2 titans in a system at the same time. _ 30% DD damage reduction. _ Increase to 10km jump portal range. _ Increase x5 titan HP.
Motherships: _ Increase drastically the ship maintenance, corp hangar, fuel and drone bay. _ Subcap gang members can repair for free near the MS, when they aren't aggroed. _ Increase x3 MS Hp.
New carriers/dreads tier2: _ Double cost, but better bonuses.
New cap -> Capital Interdictor _ Few cap weapons and drone bay _ They have a 150km bubble module _ In reinforced mode, they can be used as a cynojammer
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Yaay
The Aggressors
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Posted - 2009.08.25 16:20:00 -
[231]
Originally by: Seryius Edited by: Seryius on 25/08/2009 16:15:06 I agree, actual supercaps must be revised. I also agree with the idea to add more types of caps/supercaps like Olympians. That's my proposal:
Titans: _ There can be only 2 titans in a system at the same time. _ 30% DD damage reduction. _ Increase to 10km jump portal range. _ Increase x3 titan Hp.
Motherships: _ Increase drastically the ship maintenance, corp hangar, fuel and drone bay. _ Subcap gang members can repair for free near the MS, when they aren't aggroed. _ Increase x2 MS Hp. _ No limit on people using fitting service at the same time.
New carriers/dreads tier2: _ Double cost, but better bonuses.
New cap -> Capital Interdictor _ Few cap weapons and drone bay _ They have a 150km bubble module _ In reinforced mode, they can be used as a cynojammer
Seriously? Just stick with the game plan man.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Yaay
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.09.06 20:07:00 -
[232]
http://pc.ign.com/articles/102/1021847p1.html
This article is seriously concerning. How can you possibly add a single focus weapon on a titan to make it worth it while not either a) making it a bigger dread or b) making it a way overpowered or way underpowered platform.
For the motherships and titans, I seriously hope there's a huge tanking boost added that wasn't mentioned as well.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Lili Lu
Purveyors of Uber Research Valuables and Ships
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Posted - 2009.09.06 20:20:00 -
[233]
Originally by: Yaay http://pc.ign.com/articles/102/1021847p1.html
This article is seriously concerning. How can you possibly add a single focus weapon on a titan to make it worth it while not either a) making it a bigger dread or b) making it a way overpowered or way underpowered platform.
For the motherships and titans, I seriously hope there's a huge tanking boost added that wasn't mentioned as well.
Considering the number of them in the game now and the fact they they destroy the gfs(if lag hasn't) I see it as a good thing to convert them to a super dread. The battle-ending dd was never a good way to regulate subcap super-blobbage. Maybe also give the supercaps some ew that can alter the numbers wins situation with cap battles, i.e affecting dreads in siege.
The super-blobbage is a creation of the two-sided political devolution in the game. Address the political dichotomy by changing sov mechanics, and having moon mins deplete and reshuffle. That will reduce the multihundred on each side blobbage better than a dd.
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Bumkin
Game-Over
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Posted - 2009.09.07 03:38:00 -
[234]
yaay is awesome his DD idea is the best.
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Yaay
Viziam
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Posted - 2009.09.07 03:40:00 -
[235]
Originally by: Bumkin yaay is awesome his DD idea is the best.
If only everyone did exactly what I said... but you forgot the sexy part.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
SteamIron
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Posted - 2009.10.01 10:03:00 -
[236]
Originally by: Yaay
If only everyone did exactly what I said... but you forgot the sexy part.
They would get bubbled and killed while you warped out. :)
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