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Vuk Lau
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 18:50:00 -
[1]
Finally I gathered all my senses to finish this document. For the last year I was thinking about all the things which suck when it comes to supercaps I always knew the basics of what I would change, but was never completely happy with solutions I had on my mind. Also the good part of the last few months I spent on numbers, doing calcs and all that stuff to try to balance everything as best as possible but I found out that I suck at balancing :D, almost the same as CCP :D so I will leave the final touch to them, if they decide to consider ideas I gathered and posted here.
DISCLAIMER: I talked with A LOT of supercap pilots in the last year or so, and I will try to mention everyone I took some good ideas from, but please dont mind me if I forget someone.
Anyway, lets go. I am personally the owner of one mothership class ship - Nyx and owner of a titan class ship - Ragnarok. While I didnt play much lately on both of the accounts, the reason for not using the titan much is that I didnt have time and tbh the will to fly it lately, but when it comes to Nyx for the last 6+ months I am logging in only to change the skills.
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Vuk Lau
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 18:50:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Vuk Lau on 17/04/2009 18:50:27
I will 1st try to generalize problems for both titans and moms and then I will continue with each specifically.
Main problem:
- They die so easily its not even funny.
Solutions: Massive boost of HP and Supercap reps
1st solution and IMHO the „MUST“ one is a massive boost of base HP of both moms and titans. If we take a quick glance at the current numbers (unfitted just as a rough comparison) Thanatos (carrier) has 591k EHP, Moros (dreadnought) has 890k EHP, Nyx (mothership) 1250k EHP and Erebus (titan) 1575k EHP. If we take quick relation between carrier and mom we have price ratio of 1:20 and EHP ratio of 1:2.1, and dreadnaught and titan ratio is 1:32 price wise compared to 1:1.76 EHP ratio. Even with EHP boost of 10 times price ratio and EHP ratio wouldnt be the same.
2nd solution is the introduction of supercapital armor reps/shield boosters. I wouldnt boost them too much compared to regular capital ones, mainly because the intention of supercaps is not to be solomobiles. With all changes I will propose here, one thing must be untouched and that is – if you deploy your supercap solo, you need to die :D
3rd solution I was proposed which I dont like is the role bonus of increased armor/shield resistances. It would be too much IMHO, because it simply becomes a multiplier to spider tanking which is already powerful.
4th solution is decreasing of sig radius to prevent dreadnaught weapons inflicting full damage except when a supercapital ship is not moving. Before late 2007 this is how it was until supercapital sigradiuses were increased by approximately ten times (to make them more probeable). Because supercaps can’t be webbed ganking them with seiged dreadnaughts was challenging, and involved tactical skill both on the part of the dread FC in positioning his dreads, and the supercapital pilot in trying to maneuver to reduce the damage. The titan which died before this change was Shrike in 46DP in a long battle involving sieged dreadnaughts missing a lot and hundreds of other ships. Soon after the change Thulsa Doom was ganked quickly in a safespot by sieged dreads before any exciting battle could get underway. The real advantage however is for motherships because they'd become viable again in capital battles.
Other boosts of supercap ships related to both motherships and titans.
1st – Increased size of Ship Maintenance bay
2nd – Increased size of Corporate hangars
3rd – Buffing/reworking clone vat bays
Now I will spend just a few moments on one thing many people proposed but in different variants. Its about turning supercaps into mobile/deployable/permanent structures. Honestly I am totally against this, and I am not even sure how it would be implemented code wise. However I am open for any discussion about that idea as well.
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Vuk Lau
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 18:51:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Vuk Lau on 17/04/2009 18:52:10
Motherships
Now I will concentrate on motherships exclusively. There were many proposals about giving motherships higher damage but somehow I dont feel that dealing damage should be the role of motherships. With increased static and active tank, increased corp hangars and ship bays, they are a step above carriers but still not that much to justify price difference. One thing motherships have and I personally adore is the remote ECM burst. I would slightly boost it and allow it to break the lock of sieged dreads as well.
There are some nice proposals for boosting moms as drone boats by EdFromHumanResources:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1023003
As I said I am not really fond of adding DPS to the ship, but boosting their drones in other ways should be an option f.e. as mentioned here:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1023003&page=2#40
or in worst case, t2 fighters should be introduced through invention, or in combination with wormhole goodies for the roleplaying sake.
Another of the really cool ideas I heard is to have an area of effect healing module. With that module fitted an activate mom should have certain penalties like inability to deploy drones or fighters and f.e. decreased cap recharge so it needs remote cap transfer to stay operational, then it would heal armor and/or shield of all ships in 10km area around (could be decreased initially with option of introducing the skill for range) by launching a „nanobot swarm“/„shield plasma cloud“ from the module.
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Vuk Lau
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 18:53:00 -
[4]
Titans
My main dilemma here was in which direction titan class ships should go. Even with the initial nerfing of doomsday devices, they are still way too powerful, and with increasing numbers of titans around, they are seriously threatening to destroy the phenomena of fleet fights. Anyway as mentioned, I had 2 directions, nerfing Doomsday or removing it. When I say removing doomsday, it would kill the role of the titan as it is now (if we exclude jumpportaling) so they would need another role, and the only viable one would be to introduce them as capital killer ships as they already have bonuses on their weapons. When it comes to nerfing doomsdays I will be honest and say I didnt have any idea what to do beside decreasing the damage inflicted, until Yaay posted a great proposal, especially the aspect of Doomsdays doing heat damage to modules:
http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1014819
 Originally by: Yaay
the revameped DD idea:
ROF 20 min:
20% chance to cause 40 heat damage (lvl 5)
10k Maxed (lvl 5) racial damage
15,000 Energy Neutralized (lvl 5 skill)
Warp Stasis, 20 second delay to affected ships warp abilities (including titan)
I would keep the current ROF, and would decrease the amount of energy neutralized, but anyway the idea is excellent. Hats off. This would basically solve the problems with doomsdays atm. They can’t singlehandedly win a battle with proposed changes and even with multiple doomsdays fired a hostile fleet will be crippled, but alive and you WILL need your support fleet to finish it (or not) :D
2nd thing which is bothering me from day one is damn range of Jump Portal Generator. For the love of God increase it to 5000m at least.
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Vuk Lau
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 18:54:00 -
[5]
Olympians - !!11!1!!
While considering the option of removing doomsday devices, as mentioned above the only viable solution for me was giving them the role of capital killer ships. Finally I asked myself if maybe its time for another class of supercap ships. My fellow alliance mate Danny Centurai christened them as „Olympians“. (If we continue using Greek mythology, The Olympians are a group of 12 gods who ruled after the overthow of the Titans, so its a really nifty name for the new class.)
Anyway, as we witnessed massive 100+ vs 100+ capital fights maybe New Eden is ready for a supercap whose sole purpose is blowing up capital ships. They should be able to inflict massive amounts of damage to the capital size ships. To counter them being too powerful they need to be „massively“ nerfed from the other side. To effectively siege one Olympian you will need to support it with constant remote cap transferring (someone invited motherships to the party) because an Olympian itself cant sustain the massive cap consumption of its „siege module“. Their active tank due to low cap will be also nonexistent so you would need carriers, and motherships if you want to make sure 5 rooks/falcons/scorps doesnt shutdown your Olympian’s spider tank. Basically if you want to deploy Oly you need to deploy your moms, or its just one giant sitting duck.
When it comes to production costs of Olympian initially I wanted to put it between moms and titans (around 20-25 bil figure) but with huge amounts of isk floating around I am thinking maybe to make them more expensive than titans. From the other side it would totally waste any chance for some „smaller entities“ to get ahold of them. Maybe something like an increased price but decreased production time, compared to titans. Anyway with the initial idea I am sure that others (hello Yaay) will come up with more positive feedback.
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Vuk Lau
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 18:54:00 -
[6]
CONCLUSION: My initial motive for proposing these changes is to give more intense and more fun gameplay for both supercapital and all other pilots. With changes like this we will see many more supercaps deployed on the frontlines and many more of them killed (killed, not ass****d without the chance to live long enough for a 2nd rep cycle :D ). To be honest, I wouldnt be emo at all if I lost my mothership or titan after hours of fighting with my hull going down to 5% just to be boosted again and so on. Atm a titan pilots combat experience is all but non-intense (besides praying that you will not die cause you were in lag for 1 minute :D ) and a mothership pilots combat experience is...lets say non-existent :D
I hope you recognized my motives and I am happily waiting all constructive feedback
Cheers
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Vuk Lau
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 18:55:00 -
[7]
I edited all the posts from some most obvious grammar and spelling mistakes :D
Anyway I am supporting the op 
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Drake Draconis
Shadow Cadre
Worlds End Consortium
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Posted - 2009.04.17 18:59:00 -
[8]
*opens briefcase*
/supported
=========================
CEO of Shadow Cadre
http://www.shadowcadre.com
=========================
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Zastrow J
GoonFleet
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:10:00 -
[9]
i like it
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Hell Commander
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:12:00 -
[10]
no 
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Bos Tess69
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:12:00 -
[11]
looks like a well thought out a pretty solid idea, the olympian idea works, or allow titans to fit a seige module for killing caps, and give them a supercap repper, this gives a expensive ship some real hours in the feild as it hammers into dreads with heavy hitting vollys, whilst risking itself greatly, but more of a tank is definatly needed in this area.
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Melaki
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:13:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Melaki on 17/04/2009 19:13:41
total support
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Zylexx
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:16:00 -
[13]
I dig it
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SUMZER0
The Dead Parrot Shoppe Inc.
Balance of Judgment
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:19:00 -
[14]
Well thought out.
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Andrew IFA
Oberon Incorporated
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:22:00 -
[15]
good ideas
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Mazhius
New Horizon Technologies
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:26:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Mazhius on 17/04/2009 19:25:59
aproved
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Krapshtukas
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:28:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Krapshtukas on 17/04/2009 19:27:57
lets change it
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KosmikZA
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:28:00 -
[18]
Seems good. Nice ideas
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Redplayer X
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:29:00 -
[19]
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Tao Min
Tiger Research Inc.
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:29:00 -
[20]
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Dak Torin
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:30:00 -
[21]
lets fix it and i'll get into one of those :) |
icekold killa
Perkone
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:32:00 -
[22]
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Blazde
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:36:00 -
[23]
Loving these proposals because they're obviously grounded in tons of actual supercap experience, plus good research of existing proposals and aren't whacky left-field dreams (mobile stations etc..). Mostly just simple tweaks to existing stats. With predictable outcomes. For sound reasons. This was desperately needed over 18 months ago so just getting it fixed properly asap should be priority.
The details of the Olympian idea I'm not totally sold on but there is definetely room for another supercap class with a super-dread type role. Fixing the existing supercaps should be priority of course, after that I'm happy to see a new class that'll be totally broken for the next two years 
_
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RazorCRO
The Arrow Project
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:37:00 -
[24]
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Nathan Yates
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:41:00 -
[25]
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Batolemaeus
Free-Space-Ranger
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:41:00 -
[26]
----------------------------------------------
Originally by: CCP Prism X
In New Eden, EVE wins you.
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Number 51X
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Posted - 2009.04.17 19:46:00 -
[27]
I suport the idea
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Teralya
Macabre Votum
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2009.04.17 20:01:00 -
[28]
I fully approve of this product
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Yaay
Reikoku Reloaded
KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.04.17 20:05:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Vuk Lau
3rd solution I was proposed which I dont like is the role bonus of increased armor/shield resistances. It would be too much IMHO, because it simply becomes a multiplier to spider tanking which is already powerful.
That's a problem of Remote repairing out of triage for carriers. Simply put, they should be allowed to do any advanced remote repairs outside of triage... IE capital RR.
Logistics ships are the repair platforms of the game... and honestly, i'd rather they have a form of triage to speed up POS repairs rather than give carriers anything of the sort that they have now.
Capital RR are flawed in use and in range. They should have a much smaller range, a much smaller HP repair, but they were introduced at a time when POS repairing was crap, and were justified as such. Now we get the **** ass turtle tanking as a result.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
Yaay
Reikoku Reloaded
KenZoku
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Posted - 2009.04.17 20:15:00 -
[30]
The changes as a whole i do support, the idea of anti mobile platform i'm against. There is a relatively simple coding update using current game mechanics to do the limited mobile plaform base that's needed, including docking ships, repairing, using the corp h anger bay, refitting, etc.... It's just removing it from an external feature to one linked to docking. Docking can be as simple as a graphic of "view ships" while having these features available in their current form (IE fitting window with carriers)
When docked, you just watch said ship move around space, going wherever it goes. Logging requires you to be out of the ship, or risk jettison in unknown space. Yest Disconnects are a problem, but they're already a problem in game for so many reasons far worse than this. It's not a flaw of the mechanics of the ships, it's a flaw of the internet to have instability of connection.
DD changes
Docking PVP games |
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