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Dear CCP, do you condone contract scams?

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Ma'kal Caldari SUNDERING Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2009.04.22 14:46:00 - [61] Edited by: Ma''kal on 22/04/2009 14:48:03 Originally by: Malcanis Sort by price. Even if you're too dumb to read, your PC will have no problem seperating 999,999.99 fro 999,999,999 This should be sent to everyone that complains they are being scammed. I never understood how someone could be scammed when they can read the darn price. IMO when they fix this Devs are chipping away at there dumb person filter. When you say, "Oh poor me I was scammed". That is only because you don't want to face the really truth. You just did something that was dumb and you don't want to take responsibility.
Neo Omni Gallente	Posted - 2009.04.22 14:55:00 - [62] Originally by: Cerebus Alteri the only thing i am worried about in the long run. is this growing out of hand. alot of players earn their iskies mining, missioning, trading, pirating, ratting and they do it with "hard" work and they do it "honestly". this contract scam biz puts all the isk printing myths and reality to shame. make an alt run an macro make a few contracts to spam and make billions in the weeks. and you never have to leave station, you never have to buy anything. or put any active brainpower or action into anything. so with all the pluses how soon till half of eve is doing the same thing? yea its been going on for a long time but in some far off mythical land known as jita, where most newish players never set foot, hell you can go your first year about in game and never have even been to jita. but now this has spead out far and wide across the land. and when the spammers are actually near their pc occasionally they will brag about the amount of isk they make in local. i mean are us honest gamers doing whatever we like to do just stupid? we should all be making macros and spammming and parting isk from greedy or stupid, or true noobs that do not know better people. i do not mind it now, but if it starts growing and you go from 10 to 15 scammers in these minor hubs and you suddenly got 20 30 40 just trying to cash in on the success. then the current spam will look like child's play. nevermind that's a number of bodies sitting in a mission hub, spamming local taking up server resources and not doing anything but taking up space and parting idiots from their isk. it will grow out of hand..that is guaranteed. Thing is, it's very easy to fix. A few adjustments to the contract scheme to make it clearly decipherable at a glance and prevent conflicting information...and you are done. There will always be scams...but like I said, EVE doesn't have to make it easy for you to create one. But if this is the way CCP wants to play the game...oh well.
Neo Omni Gallente	Posted - 2009.04.22 15:00:00 - [63] Originally by: Ma'kal Edited by: Ma''kal on 22/04/2009 14:48:03 Originally by: Malcanis Sort by price. Even if you're too dumb to read, your PC will have no problem seperating 999,999.99 fro 999,999,999 This should be sent to everyone that complains they are being scammed. I never understood how someone could be scammed when they can read the darn price. IMO when they fix this Devs are chipping away at there dumb person filter. When you say, "Oh poor me I was scammed". That is only because you don't want to face the really truth. You just did something that was dumb and you don't want to take responsibility. It's not that people are dumb, it's that the traps are set for reading mistakes. I go through alot of contracts...alot of reading. Eventually you lose track of something important in one (be it you misread the number of 9s or something) and you accept it only to find you have been scammed because you missed something important. Having screened 20 other contracts before, your eyes, thought process was off for one second. That is what the scammers are aiming at. Your fatigue, not your intelligence.
Ma'kal Caldari SUNDERING Zenith Affinity	Posted - 2009.04.22 15:20:00 - [64] Originally by: Neo Omni It's not that people are dumb, it's that the traps are set for reading mistakes. I go through alot of contracts...alot of reading. Eventually you lose track of something important in one (be it you misread the number of 9s or something) and you accept it only to find you have been scammed because you missed something important. Having screened 20 other contracts before, your eyes, thought process was off for one second. That is what the scammers are aiming at. Your fatigue, not your intelligence. I didn't call people dumb, I said they did a dumb action. If you are too tired to read the contract maybe you should log off and take a nap or do something else for a bit.
Hariya	Posted - 2009.04.22 15:49:00 - [65] Originally by: Neo Omni It's not that people are dumb, it's that the traps are set for reading mistakes. I go through alot of contracts...alot of reading. Eventually you lose track of something important in one (be it you misread the number of 9s or something) and you accept it only to find you have been scammed because you missed something important. Having screened 20 other contracts before, your eyes, thought process was off for one second. That is what the scammers are aiming at. Your fatigue, not your intelligence. It's not that people are dumb, it's just that the weapons are set for killing people who make mistakes. I go though alot of low sew...a lot of dying. Eventually you lose track of something important in one (be it enabling your active tank or something) and you enter the fight only to find you have been killed because you missed something important. Having fought 20 other pvpers before, your brain, thought process was off one second. That is what the killers are aimint at. Your fatigue, not your intelligence. This guy is constant comedy gold mine to the forums, please donate him some in-game ISK for it. K thx bye
Rashmika Clavain Gallente Revelation Space	Posted - 2009.04.22 15:58:00 - [66] The guy in Dodixie locla spamming: omg I bought the wrong implant and need to sell it cheap... ...and then listing it at 399,999,999 is amusing. However at the contracts completed, it's shocking how many fall for it. Someone even fell for the: give me half a billion ISK plus a navy Mega and I'll give you a Mega. /facepalm
Marcus Druallis Quantum Industries RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.22 15:59:00 - [67] Originally by: Neo Omni Originally by: Cerebus Alteri maybe they need a tutorial intro that goes something like... "If something seems too good to be true in eve be it contracts and trades and "free isk" 95% of the time it is too good be true, this applies to real life as well. If you accept these deals more than likely you are going to lose money." end tutorial. that should sum it up, if people not learned this lesson themselves by the time they hop into eve, then i dunno how they get along in life generally. Believe it or not, not all places in the world are cut-throat in disposition. I have lived in both, so yes I know what you mean. Currently I live in a small town where people still leave their front doors and cars unlocked. It's just that CCP makes such issues about exploits, and this surely seems more like an exploit than game play. And you haven't robbed them yet!? ... Noob.
AmarrCitizen32897	Posted - 2009.04.22 16:22:00 - [68] Originally by: Neo Omni Originally by: Kyle Langdon Don't you think that if they didn't condone it they would have put an end to it already? Not at the rate they fix things. End of thread.
Da Death Minmatar Relentless Enterprises	Posted - 2009.04.22 16:25:00 - [69] Originally by: Ma'kal Originally by: Neo Omni It's not that people are dumb, it's that the traps are set for reading mistakes. I go through alot of contracts...alot of reading. Eventually you lose track of something important in one (be it you misread the number of 9s or something) and you accept it only to find you have been scammed because you missed something important. Having screened 20 other contracts before, your eyes, thought process was off for one second. That is what the scammers are aiming at. Your fatigue, not your intelligence. I didn't call people dumb, I said they did a dumb action. If you are too tired to read the contract maybe you should log off and take a nap or do something else for a bit. In the future there will be so many contracts scams that you yourself have to log off WITHOUT having found the right contracts BECAUSE your so tired of reading scams, that you will be UNABLE to play eve in a TIMELY fashion. There is no justification to help/protect/stay on the side of scammers by saying: "Everyone who gets scammed is an idiots, n00b..etc" , other then you are a scammer yourself (and that I call out to everyone who objects to scam-proof contracts. Yes, I know nobody can make it scam proof BUT you can make it 'a little harder'!)
Rawr Cristina Caldari Naqam Exalted.	Posted - 2009.04.22 16:41:00 - [70] Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Rawr Cristina Originally by: Gnulpie Originally by: Billy Sastard contractscam.jpg This looks like money laundering to me... Absolutely. Sad that CCP neither has the manpower nor any interest in investigating such stuff. I highly doubt it has anything to do with RMT. Every time I go to Amarr that person is spamming those same contracts in local, even the ones that had been completed. None of the characters that were scammed look like obvious alts, either. It's what it looks like; a 23/7 spam macro that has net someone over 10bil in a week. But that is exactly the point! You can so easily hide the RMT and isk selling in between all those mind-boggling amounts of spam scams. I'm sure you can. The point is, It's pretty damn unlikely in this case - almost all the contracts were completed by perfectly normal-looking players. It's way more likely that those are actually legit scams.
Poreuomai Minmatar Mirkur Draug'Tyr Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2009.04.22 16:42:00 - [71] Edited by: Poreuomai on 22/04/2009 16:43:04 Originally by: Neo Omni I asked a question...I got an answer: start message------------------------ Please do not post GM correspondence. Navigator So there is nothing more to be said. LOL, I'd love to know what he said, but it seems everyone who wants to know will need to post a petition because those who have done so cannot share the answer.
Neo Omni Gallente	Posted - 2009.04.22 17:02:00 - [72] Originally by: Poreuomai Edited by: Poreuomai on 22/04/2009 16:43:04 Originally by: Neo Omni I asked a question...I got an answer: start message------------------------ Please do not post GM correspondence. Navigator So there is nothing more to be said. LOL, I'd love to know what he said, but it seems everyone who wants to know will need to post a petition because those who have done so cannot share the answer. sigh He basically said that contract scams are fine. Hey navigator, did you notice I removed the GM's name from the correspondence? So what is so top secret about a GM saying it's cool to contract scam?
Neo Omni Gallente	Posted - 2009.04.22 17:07:00 - [73] Originally by: Hariya Originally by: Neo Omni It's not that people are dumb, it's that the traps are set for reading mistakes. I go through alot of contracts...alot of reading. Eventually you lose track of something important in one (be it you misread the number of 9s or something) and you accept it only to find you have been scammed because you missed something important. Having screened 20 other contracts before, your eyes, thought process was off for one second. That is what the scammers are aiming at. Your fatigue, not your intelligence. It's not that people are dumb, it's just that the weapons are set for killing people who make mistakes. I go though alot of low sew...a lot of dying. Eventually you lose track of something important in one (be it enabling your active tank or something) and you enter the fight only to find you have been killed because you missed something important. Having fought 20 other pvpers before, your brain, thought process was off one second. That is what the killers are aimint at. Your fatigue, not your intelligence. This guy is constant comedy gold mine to the forums, please donate him some in-game ISK for it. K thx bye AHAHAHA!!! You're an ass. Ahahahah!!!
Tippia Raddick Explorations BlackWater.	Posted - 2009.04.22 18:10:00 - [74] Edited by: Tippia on 22/04/2009 18:11:29 Originally by: Neo Omni It's not that people are dumb, it's that the traps are set for reading mistakes. I go through alot of contracts...alot of reading. Eventually you lose track of something important in one (be it you misread the number of 9s or something) and you accept it only to find you have been scammed because you missed something important. No, that's still just people being dumb. If you see that kind of contract, you should train your brain to instinctively say "meh, scam, next!" If, in spite of the humogous odds against it, it still sticks in your mind as something that isactually legit, consider that it's essentially just a 1-isk undercut and ask yourself "am I willing to wager saving one measly ISK against the chance that I'm still not reading this price right and end up paying 1,000+ the actual cost?" And if you say yes to this, you do a quick contract search for the item in question, sort by price and buy it from the lowest available there… because it may just turn out that your (supposed) 1-isk underbid has been beaten by another seller already. In short, it doesn't matter how hard it is to read or how easy it is to let your mind wander: a legit contract will not look like that, so why even bother with one that does? ——— “If you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡… you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.” — Karath Piki
Doppleganger Minmatar Libera Mentem Tuam	Posted - 2009.04.22 18:34:00 - [75] Originally by: Da Death In the future there will be so many contracts scams that you yourself have to log off WITHOUT having found the right contracts BECAUSE your so tired of reading scams, that you will be UNABLE to play eve in a TIMELY fashion. Before contracts Eve had another system sort of like it and something like 90% of it was spam and scams as well. Its been going on like that for 6+ yrs now so I doubt things will change. Contracts I think were suppose to cut down on this kind of stuff but it was only a matter of time before ppl figured out a better way to do it with the newer system. I myself couldn't use the old system cause I got sick of reading it for 45 mins trying to read around all the scams... contracts have become the same thing. If I really need something off contract system I don't only read it myself a few times but I link the contract up to my corpmates and have them look over it as well to make sure I didn't misread something or mis the scam part of it. Other then that contract are really only handy for trading things back and forth to ppl you know and trust.
Bellac	Posted - 2009.04.22 18:36:00 - [76] Heres my 10p on the subject. This week I found myself in a hub system for the first time in a while (Amarr) and the spam sales messages are flowing as usual - and while I was there 99% (no exageration) of the contracts spammed in local were bogus. (the most common was trying to sell something that was in fact a 9 digit value not the advertised 6 digit value) I completely support the general principle that it should be "Buyer Beware" but I also feel this is getting out of hand. The example just above of sphwwttt (or whatever the name is) is a perfect example of players spamming huge sums of money over large numbers of contracts. The real problem is that these people are hiding behind NPC corperations to do this. If I were a local seller I would be totaly p'd off at the large number of duff contracts as there is nothing the legitimate seller can do to put an end to this. There is in fact nothing that anyone can do to put an end to this. I feel that this is wrong as it destroys customer confidence in the market. Maybe its time for intervention in the contract system from the devs - maybe not - but either way I think these contractors hiding behind NPC Corperations has to come to an end. Surely that wouldnt be too hard to impiment?
Wet Ferret	Posted - 2009.04.22 19:23:00 - [77] Originally by: Doppleganger Before contracts Eve had another system sort of like it and something like 90% of it was spam and scams as well. Its been going on like that for 6+ yrs now so I doubt things will change. Contracts I think were suppose to cut down on this kind of stuff but it was only a matter of time before ppl figured out a better way to do it with the newer system. The escrow system was not that bad at all... scams were not even 1/100th as prolific as the garbage we have going on today, and those who were very successful at it did it through creative means. The courier contracts were indeed all pure scams, but otherwise the lists were fairly clean as you could not effectively mask your prices. And it was not a contributor of spam. Jita and other trade hubs were full of chatter from people passing the time while they waited for their item hangars to load . But, yeah. These forums seriously need some indicator that the post has ended and the sig has started.
Ruze Ahkor'Murkon Amarr No Applicable Corporation	Posted - 2009.04.22 19:27:00 - [78] Edited by: Ruze Ahkor''Murkon on 22/04/2009 19:27:06 Originally by: Wet Ferret Originally by: Doppleganger Before contracts Eve had another system sort of like it and something like 90% of it was spam and scams as well. Its been going on like that for 6+ yrs now so I doubt things will change. Contracts I think were suppose to cut down on this kind of stuff but it was only a matter of time before ppl figured out a better way to do it with the newer system. The escrow system was not that bad at all... scams were not even 1/100th as prolific as the garbage we have going on today, and those who were very successful at it did it through creative means. The courier contracts were indeed all pure scams, but otherwise the lists were fairly clean as you could not effectively mask your prices. And it was not a contributor of spam. Jita and other trade hubs were full of chatter from people passing the time while they waited for their item hangars to load . In Rens and Minnie space, the escrow was plenty clean. I once made a trip to Yulai or Jita, don't remember which one it was at the time, and the escrow there was miserable. Course, we couldn't go between regions with escrow, either.
Doppleganger Minmatar Libera Mentem Tuam	Posted - 2009.04.22 19:45:00 - [79] Escrow thats what it was called... thank you. I don't know I think the reason that escrow didn't seem as bad is because there were alot less ppl in game back then. From what I remember it was not bad when it started then slowly got so bad it became unusable kind of like contracts are becoming.
Black Leather	Posted - 2009.04.22 19:48:00 - [80] A few simple steps: 1) Close local 2) Open contract tab 3) browse contracts 4) Bid or buy What I would like to see implemented, though, is a larger block list limit. Being that I spend a lot of time in Jita and Amarr buying Cap construction bps and have maxed my block list, it's tough to have a simple chat with the locals. And before someone mentions to clear my block list, try opening yours. Guaranteed to lock up the game for more that a few minutes :(
Neo Omni Gallente	Posted - 2009.04.23 00:49:00 - [81] Edited by: Neo Omni on 23/04/2009 00:55:37 Originally by: Doppleganger Escrow thats what it was called... thank you. I don't know I think the reason that escrow didn't seem as bad is because there were alot less ppl in game back then. From what I remember it was not bad when it started then slowly got so bad it became unusable kind of like contracts are becoming. The end game of EVE is more people, more players which means for isk for CCP. If you have a wing of players that are very interested in the business end of EVE but find that the tools for business are broken and worse, the dysfunction is accepted as normal game play...then you have people leaving EVE. I myself am on my way out. I enjoy the more cerbral aspects of this game, but the spamming of scam contracts is too much. Bounty is broken Contracts are broken In station trading is broken Can flipping in hi-sec? WTF is that all about? Broken. Other than pew-pew...most everything else is broken. Where is the fun there CCP?
Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.23 01:08:00 - [82] for all the people complaining that they should make it easier to read, i completely disagree. Scamming, while obnoxious in local chat, is quite useful in weeding out the idiots. You won't be scammed if you SEARCH contracts yourself because then you know exactly what you're looking at without worrying about a tech 1 shield booster replacing your precious gist x-type xl shield boosters =/ I was personally very dissapointed when they nerfed freeforms... Coulda just made plex's non linkable... And I say this having mates who have been scammed, and I don't scam (but i intend to ) Suicide ganking in between amarr and jita is also a favorite past time I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
Mr Ignitious R.E.C.O.N. Dara Cothrom	Posted - 2009.04.23 01:09:00 - [83] Edited by: Mr Ignitious on 23/04/2009 01:09:50 forum kickin' ma butt I read the forums assuming there are no trolls, only really stupid people. Originally by: CCP Zulupark WHAT'S WRONG WITH YOU?
Kuronaga The Drekla Consortium Systematic-Chaos	Posted - 2009.04.23 01:19:00 - [84] I like how the ones who consistently complain about scams are the ones who can't seem to read. This must be a very large margin of players if its such a huge problem. What would you prefer CCP do? Read the contracts for you like your mommy read you story books when you were a child? Please. There comes a point when a mans gota take responsibility for his own stupid choices. Besides, eve is like a sci-fi representation of many real life business practices. In real life, there are scammers. Many of them.
Valor Anselmo	Posted - 2009.04.23 01:53:00 - [85] EVE is an online alternate reality... ...you can get scammed in real-life if youre not careful, i think its perfectly just that you can get scammed in EVE. Youll pick up great life skills, like reading the fine-print
DasDizzy Garoun Investment Bank	Posted - 2009.04.23 02:32:00 - [86] Edited by: DasDizzy on 23/04/2009 02:34:41 I hereby quote the 190eth rule of acquisition for it has relevancy to this thread: Hear all, trust nothing [SIG START] Everything i say is the view of the rest of the eve cluster, IM THE PRESSDUDE FFS
Rathelm	Posted - 2009.04.23 02:48:00 - [87] Originally by: Valor Anselmo EVE is an online alternate reality... ...you can get scammed in real-life if youre not careful, i think its perfectly just that you can get scammed in EVE. Youll pick up great life skills, like reading the fine-print However even in real life government intervenes when the fine print becomes obtuse. I have no problems with CCP allowing scamming, but I do think the contract system could use a couple of tweaks to make it more legible. First is 499,999,999 should have a (499 million) following it to make it easier to skim across the contract. It's a hassle to constantly count how many numbers are in a number. Secondly it needs to be made much clearer whether you are paying or receiving cash in a contract. The current system is silly. If you're receiving cash it should be on the bottom of the contract and if you're paying cash it should be where it currently is. That way, once again, at a glance you can see what's going on. Lastly courier contracts should give you the option to see exactly what you are shipping. This way you know exactly how much the collateral should be and if someone is trying to screw you on the lack of this knowledge. These changes won't completely eliminate scamming, however anything that makes it harder on the scammers is better for the rest of us. It would be nice if the majority of contracts you could assume were valid as opposed to now you assume they're a scam.
Cerebus Alteri	Posted - 2009.04.23 03:00:00 - [88] technically in real life a scammer living in your apartment block scamming all his neighbors would sooner or later be arrested for fraud and theft. so if eve was a true mirror of real life concord would be busting these people left and right, they also would be busting the people that sell illegal drugs on the empire markets lol. oh and suicide gankers would not be running around free.
Catherine Frasier	Posted - 2009.04.23 03:39:00 - [89] Originally by: Kuronaga I like how the ones who consistently complain about scams are the ones who can't seem to read. No, that's not the issue. I am not hoping to save the idiots who get scammed, I am hoping to starve the scammers who are spamming the hubs with so much garbage that what was once a valid tool for legitimate advertising is completely ruined. Originally by: Kuronaga What would you prefer CCP do? Read the contracts for you like your mommy read you story books when you were a child? Please. Speaking of can't seem to read... Ever write a real-life cheque? (Or watch your Mommy when she writes one?) There's a reason that we write "One thousand dollars___________$1000.00" on them and there is no valid reason Eve can not include the same simple clarity in it's uber-advanced future-tech trading system that we expected from a hand-scrawled pen-on-wood-shavings financial instrument in the 1900s. That's all we're talking about here: clarity. There were scams before this and there will be scams after this for all those internet-spaceship social Darwinists, this though, this is just annoying, spamifacient sloppiness.
Neo Omni Gallente	Posted - 2009.04.23 04:54:00 - [90] Thank you all for those that support simple minor changes to the contract system in EVE. Thank you all to those that don't support it as well, as you are the ones benefiting from this exploit that has been labeled by CCP as "normal gameplay." Look, I'm all for criminal activity and scamming in this game called EVE. BUT When it's made easier for the criminal element to progress and there is given no reciprocating balance to the non-criminal elements to counteract this behavior, then the game becomes a chore...and stops being FUN!!! That is the bottom line. The 4 things I would like to see changed: a) Contract clarification (already explained) b) Courier contract scam (unable to dock at stations and losing your collateral) c) Can flipping in hi-sec (victim should be able to call Concord on thief) d) Bounty Hunting (presently a joke) The 4 things I mentioned all currently benefit the pirate/criminal...but there is nothing for the non-pirate/criminal to counteract these so-call features that are really just exploits from poor planning and coding. EVE ads boast pew-pew AND all the other non-pew-pew related aspects such as the economy and business ventures. Well..the pew-pew works fine. But the other stuff is broke. Presently two accounts, mine and my corp mate's are counting down to expiration. Why? Because what we thought as fun aspects of the game dont work.

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