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Lord EmBra Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.12 14:20:00 - [451] Originally by: Murashu Originally by: CCP Nozh Do I understand the problem correctly? How would you like to see this fixed? I think you missed the point. ECM > all other forms of EWAR combined. Someone who is jammed cannot web/scramble/shoot/target/dampen/disrupt/remote rep, they can't do anything. Balance all forms of EWAR then see if the drones are still unbalanced. THIS!
Myra2007 Shafrak Industries	Posted - 2009.05.12 17:41:00 - [452] Has this issue been dropped? -- Originally by: Jasper Dark I agree! Lets go back into caves and lick rocks!
Murashu Agony's End	Posted - 2009.05.12 18:37:00 - [453] Originally by: Myra2007 Has this issue been dropped? You gotta love it when they ask for your input then just disappear for a couple of weeks. _______ Murashu Agony's End
eXeGee UK1 Zero	Posted - 2009.05.14 18:36:00 - [454] ECM drones don't need balacing, they'r just fine, but ECM needs balacing for sure.
Seishi Maru M. Corp Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2009.05.15 02:24:00 - [455] Originally by: Murashu Originally by: Myra2007 Has this issue been dropped? You gotta love it when they ask for your input then just disappear for a couple of weeks. seen how this thread got tramped by the naglfar thread showing to CCP how there are more urgent stuff to fix.. no surprise this be left to later... there are at least 6-8 things more important in the list... AND easier to fix.
Soporo Caldari	Posted - 2009.05.16 19:36:00 - [456] Buff all the other ewar drones some. Watch and wait. As many people have said it's either dps or ecm drones due to all the others being completely craptastic. I have yet to see a full flight of EC-900's in any circumstance, btw.
Immogen Valdice Gallente Zenislev Contingent	Posted - 2009.05.17 03:36:00 - [457] Apologies if any of this has been covered already.. It seems to me that a basic change sideways in the nature of ECM/ECM Drones & ECCM is possibly the way forward. For this i am just going to consider Sensor Strength and Max Number of locked Targets. Summary Sensor Strength used as a ratio to generate %chance of effectiveness ECCM Modules to Increase Sensor Strength ECM Drones/Modules to Reduce #Max Locked Targets Methodology If Sensor Strengths are used as both an attacking/defensive value they can be compared as a ratio which can then be turned into a %chance of effectiveness. Consider the following table of typical Sensor Strength and "Average" Max Locked Targets per shipclass Frigate Cruiser Battleship Low Medium High Sensor Strength 3 5 7 # Target Locks The table above demonstrates that a Frigate would have an equal chance against another frigate, but a progressively poorer chance as the class of the opposing ship increased, and by fitting ECCM modules a ship can increase it's chance of effectiveness vs another ship that has a standard Sensor Strength Rating. Each ECM Module can then be assigned a Lock# Penalty eg: T1 - 1, Named 1-2, T2 - 2 and if the %chance of success is positive the targets Max Locks value is reduced by the appropriate amount. These effects can be countered by using Auto Targetting Systems and/or training Targetting and Multitasking. ECM drones should use thier own inherant Sensor Strength to determine thier effectiveness, whilst thier applied Lock Penalty can use the following progression Light 1 Lock Penalty Medium 2 Lock Penalties Heavy 3 Lock Penalties Other Considerations A)The Duration timer of 20s can be split into 2 seperate parts each 10s long - An Activation Timer - A Duration Interval The target should recieve a "You are being ECM'ed" message for the whole 20s, even if the module(s) failed to affect them. This change should apply to both ECM Modules and ECM Drones equally. B)ECM Modules to be scripted, to be in line with other ewar modules Script Bonus' can be taken from - Reduced Activation Timer - Increased Duration Interval - Increase to Sensor Strength Effectiveness - Increase to Targets Lock# Penalty Scirpt Penalties can be taken from - Additional Capacitor Usage Cost - Reduced Fall Off Range - Reduced Optimal Range - Reduced Sensor Strength - Increased Activation Timer - Reduced Duration Interval I realise that a lot of what is in here requires several changes either to the attributes of existing items, or in the way that existing items work. I have however attempted to approach this issue in a way that cannot be viewed as nerf (hopefully). Constructive critism or improvements/ideas are welcome.
Akiba Penrose	Posted - 2009.05.17 12:26:00 - [458] Originally by: Murashu Originally by: CCP Nozh Do I understand the problem correctly? How would you like to see this fixed? I think you missed the point. ECM > all other forms of EWAR combined. Someone who is jammed cannot web/scramble/shoot/target/dampen/disrupt/remote rep, they can't do anything. Balance all forms of EWAR then see if the drones are still unbalanced. QFT The ECM mechanic is superior since almost all pvp activity depend on having a lock.
Infinity Ziona Minmatar I AM BETTER THAN YOU	Posted - 2009.05.18 17:51:00 - [459] Losing lock in a fight is a stupid mechanic anyway. Remove Ewar drones entirely or restrict them to ewar type ships only. Not gonna happen. Would like to see lock temporarily removed on jam but restablished after jam without having to relock. Ganking Buddhist Nun
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.05.19 01:41:00 - [460] update?
DaiZ Do	Posted - 2009.05.19 07:22:00 - [461] give eccm modules scan resolution bonuses / sensor booster eccm effects. problem solved.
BenjaminBarker	Posted - 2009.05.19 19:42:00 - [462] Instead of breaking lock themselves, have them reduce sensor strength, making it easier to break locks with modules. Or - Change ECM overall - break it into 2 categories, Sensor Strength reduction, and ECM. Once the ECM strength is greater then the sensor strength, you break targets. No more random chance. Good luck balancing something like that though...
BenjaminBarker	Posted - 2009.05.19 19:55:00 - [463] Or for real fun... drop the ECM on drones and make them do something fun like randomly overload a module. The larger the drone, the more modules get overloaded. If that module happens to be running, better hope it doesn't blow!
Gavin Darklighter THE FINAL STAND	Posted - 2009.05.19 21:41:00 - [464] Originally by: Akiba Penrose Originally by: Murashu Originally by: CCP Nozh Do I understand the problem correctly? How would you like to see this fixed? I think you missed the point. ECM > all other forms of EWAR combined. Someone who is jammed cannot web/scramble/shoot/target/dampen/disrupt/remote rep, they can't do anything. Balance all forms of EWAR then see if the drones are still unbalanced. QFT The ECM mechanic is superior since almost all pvp activity depend on having a lock. The ECM mechanic is just too overpowering. The whole concept of being jammed and therefor being unable to lock anything needs to be changed. signature picture exceeds the size limit.~WeatherMan
To mare	Posted - 2009.05.20 13:43:00 - [465] any news on this?
honey bunchetta	Posted - 2009.05.20 15:52:00 - [466] Originally by: Gavin Darklighter The ECM mechanic is just too overpowering. The whole concept of being jammed and therefor being unable to lock anything needs to be changed. So change damps as well as they can create the same effect?. ECM is fine in fact its the only one that is really worth using in gang combat and you wanna change it to make it as worthless as the others?...forget it.
Renarla	Posted - 2009.05.20 22:34:00 - [467] ECM Drones are fine. All other EWAR Drones are far from fine. I recall a post earlier stating that 5 ECM drones is equal to about 2 ECM modules, while 5 webber drones are equal to about 3/5th of 1 web module- on top of that they're the slowest of all EWAR drones and only come in one size (Heavy). Don't touch ECM Drones, they're fine. Fix all of the other EWAR Drones. However, on another note, I now have one of those annoying sigs.
Jimmy Duce	Posted - 2009.05.20 23:38:00 - [468] Originally by: CCP Nozh After reading through the "Balancing - Identifying problems" thread posted last Friday I noticed several issues that need my attention. We'll tackle these one at a time, allowing the original thread to live on. I'm going to start with a fairly straight forward issue (not the most popular one, but good to get us started) that should be properly resolved by us quickly. How I view the ECM Drone problem: The heavy Wasp EC-900's have 2 points of strength to all sensor types and a 20 second duration, equivalent to un-bonused Tech 1 multispectral jammers. Unlike the capacitor thirsty multispectral jammers they do not require any energy. Further more due to their small signature radius, once their victims gain the ability to target again, it takes quite a long time to acquire a lock in order to neutralize them. Most of the time you're facing multiple ECM Drones, which can be quite tricky to target and destroy, it becomes quite annoying. Electronic warfare doesn't really work properly against them, nor does small amounts of damage as the pilot is always able to scoop the drones and redeploy them. In some ways the drones are superior to targeted ECM jammers, as the drones operate even though you yourself are being target jammed. Smartbombs are able to counter them quite well, however this tactic only works while piloting larger ships that can field large smartbombs. Ok, Do I understand the problem correctly? How would you like to see this fixed? These are the questions you should be answering. Discuss! PS. Tomorrow is the first day of summer in Iceland (7¦ and rain, heh) and a national holiday, I'll see you back here on Friday, hopefully with a lot of ideas to solve this issue. ... How long does it take to use the worst T1 ECM module and how long does it take to train to use the best ECM drone? Easy counter for ECM drones is the same as all dornes, fit a smartbomb.
Jimmy Duce	Posted - 2009.05.20 23:51:00 - [469] OK slightly more constructive. How about a simple ECM stacking penalty? Across the board, sensor damps, ECM, TP, everything. So people would have to determine if it's really worth is using that third ECM drone like they do with damage mods and resistance. 2 sensor strength vs a what 18 strength BS is like a cake walk. It *should only succeed once every 9 cycles. That's what 180 seconds. Every 2 minutes it breaks lock once. Throw in the stacking and see how the math is supposed to work.
MotherMoon Huang Yinglong	Posted - 2009.05.21 19:00:00 - [470] Originally by: Jimmy Duce OK slightly more constructive. How about a simple ECM stacking penalty? Across the board, sensor damps, ECM, TP, everything. So people would have to determine if it's really worth is using that third ECM drone like they do with damage mods and resistance. 2 sensor strength vs a what 18 strength BS is like a cake walk. It *should only succeed once every 9 cycles. That's what 180 seconds. Every 2 minutes it breaks lock once. Throw in the stacking and see how the math is supposed to work. wow, that's simple yet effective
Etho Demerzel Gallente Holy Clan of the Cone	Posted - 2009.05.22 20:15:00 - [471] Originally by: Jimmy Duce OK slightly more constructive. How about a simple ECM stacking penalty? Across the board, sensor damps, ECM, TP, everything. So people would have to determine if it's really worth is using that third ECM drone like they do with damage mods and resistance. 2 sensor strength vs a what 18 strength BS is like a cake walk. It *should only succeed once every 9 cycles. That's what 180 seconds. Every 2 minutes it breaks lock once. Throw in the stacking and see how the math is supposed to work. As long as teh strength of all drone effects is trippled that is fine. As it is now it would just make ECM drones as useless as the Sensor dampening and Tracking Disruptor ones are now... A much better solution woudl be just to improve the OTHER EW drones. This game needs MORE EW, not less. ===== "If a member of the EVE community finds he or she cannot accept our current level of transparency, we bid you good luck in finding a company that meets your needs." - CCP kieron...
K1RTH G3RS3N Haunted House BROTHERS GRIM.	Posted - 2009.05.23 05:16:00 - [472] nerfing becoming excessive. just make them more expensive (harder to build?)
omgdutch2005 Gallente Advanced Planetary Exports Intergalactic Exports Group	Posted - 2009.05.23 16:49:00 - [473] yeah just remove stacking from the other drones....!
AnzacPaul	Posted - 2009.05.24 07:27:00 - [474] its been said many times already CCP, are you listening? Don't nerf ECM drones, make the other race drones better. Unless of course, people are still crying about not being able to get a lock like they did with the falcon repeatedly until you hit that with your almighty nerf bat. smartbombs are there for a reason, eccm is there for a reason, personal drone bay is there for a reason. all your doing is making the game easier for people that cry every time they die and theres an ecm boat/drones involved.
Jimmy Duce	Posted - 2009.05.24 15:08:00 - [475] Originally by: Etho Demerzel As long as teh strength of all drone effects is trippled that is fine. As it is now it would just make ECM drones as useless as the Sensor dampening and Tracking Disruptor ones are now... A much better solution woudl be just to improve the OTHER EW drones. This game needs MORE EW, not less.[/quote The problem with ECM in particular is it makes it easy to surivive. Similarly sensor damps could easily be made overly powered. The math I did there is horrible inaccurate in fact it should have been lock break every 3 minutes [180 sec]. But I do se the point without some stacking sending 5 large ECM drones would pretty close to permajam a single BS, multiply that by a fleet of ships and let's say they all use ECM drones. The other side is completely unable to do any damage short of smartbombs and well yeah, there are issues with those in empire. A stacking penality would fall inligh with everything else in the game but 3 large ECM drones would have the effective ECM strenght of what? 2 + 20.87 + 20.57 is about 4.6. That's still fairly effective [ think T2 ECM on a non bonused ship] but not imba and not really a direct nerf while still inline with the stacking penalty of everything else.
Del Girl Shade. Cry Havoc.	Posted - 2009.05.25 10:55:00 - [476] Of all the things you choose to fix first, you choose ECM Drones? Seriously, what the f***?
Immogen Valdice Gallente Zenislev Contingent	Posted - 2009.05.25 16:16:00 - [477] Originally by: Del Girl Of all the things you choose to fix first, you choose ECM Drones? Seriously, what the f**? ecm in all it's forms needs some Dev-loving what we'll go though is most likely some Dev-batting with ecm receiving a "stacking penalty" because it's the quickest, easiest and simplest way to fix* things
Dasfry Caldari Demio's Corporation 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2009.05.26 14:41:00 - [478] Originally by: Perry Problem: ECM Drones are too effective compared to other Drones in small scale PvP Solution: Buff TP/RSD/TD/EN-Drones a bit so that a full fleight of them actually does something usefull for you. Then there will be choice. Do not: Nerf ECM Drones with ccp-sladgehammer of nerfbat doom. Why? Because then everyone would have to use damage drones because all other dronetypes would be crap. Originally by: Malena Panic The problem with ECM drones is they introduce the broken ECM mechanic Originally by: Bellum Eternus Sure there's a problem here. It's the same problem that exists with all the rest of ECM: it completely shuts down the enemy ship. Originally by: Seishi Maru This is mportant. CCP wil never have ECM balanced while its effect is so stupid. ECM drones are not unbalanced.... ECM IDEA is unbalanced, dumb, ridiculous , bad game mechanic, anoying, irritating, frustrating... Originally by: Murashu I think you missed the point. ECM > all other forms of EWAR combined. Someone who is jammed cannot web/scramble/shoot/target/dampen/disrupt/remote rep, they can't do anything. Balance all forms of EWAR then see if the drones are still unbalanced. Originally by: Lewyrus The problem is, that the other ewar drones are virtually obsolete, friggin' useless compared the ECM drones. However, the current strength of the ECm drones are more or less fine, if you ask me. I think boosting the other ewar drones is the best possible solution. Make them scary. Make them a good alternative. Originally by: Vertical Axis ECM drones, alone, are not the problem. The problem is ECM in general. Originally by: Tarminic ECM on Drones This is a problem with ECM in general, but ECM drones illustrate it very well - their is no stacking nerf due to the way ECM mechanics work, while every other type of e-war drone is stacking-nerfed. The long relock time of drones in general works well in concert with ECM drones due to their damage. Once a jamming cycle starts, the pilot can immediately pull the ECM drones back into his dronebay. The drones will be off the field but their jamming persists for 20 seconds regardless if they're present or not. Originally by:* isdisco3 Edited by: isdisco3 on 22/04/2009 21:23:32 ECM drones are not the problem. The problem is ECM in general, because: 1. being jammed means you're jammed for 20 seconds because of the long module time 2. if you're jammed, you're nothing but a damage-soaker 3. there is no useful or predictable counter to it (we all know ECCM doesn't stop it) 4. chances are too high that you will be jammed This applies to ECM drones, ECM modules, and the lack of effectiveness of ECCM. You can NOT just "fix" ECM drones and call this issue done with. It is but one segment of a much larger problem, the balancing of ECM in general. If you are proposing to fix ECM drones, then it is necessary for you to fix and rebalance all ECM-related issues. You can't do one without the other. Originally by: Elaron There is no point in changing anything that uses the ECM mechanic (modules, ships, drones) until the mechanic itself has been amended. Originally by: Alphonse Diago Well it seems everyone feels the problem is ecm and not ecm drones themselves Although not everyone can 100% agree on what exactly the problem is, many are pointing toward the way ECM works. I agree the problem is with the math of the ECM. Currently in order to get 100% change to jam, your jamming strength simply needs to meet or beat the sensor strength of the target. I would like to propose the following change. Simply change it so it works on a sliding scale, that it is never possible to get 100% chance to jam, only 99% chance is the max. example scale follows. Success = 1 - 1 / (1 + EXP( 0.03 * (Attack - Defense)) *********** Dasfry, Director Demio's Corporation Military Tactics
Bishop120	Posted - 2009.05.26 20:18:00 - [479] I posted this in features and ideas but I will repost here since this seems relevant to the topic.. First off let me say that I have only been playing about a year or so and that I have two accounts which both have Recon, 1 specced Caldari (for Falcon/Rook) and the other specced Gallente (Arazu/Lachesis). I have worked a lot with ECM and have been very interested in the EWAR mechanics of EVE. I understand the pros and cons of all the EWAR and have through my two accounts been testing them all as best I can. Also understand at this point I am not saying that ECM is overpowered.. it has numerous drawbacks and personally I dont like flying ECM boats because I love being the main damage dealer. In a nut shell the reason ECM is greater than all the other forms of EWAR is because you can practically guarantee to shut down 1-3 opponents with 1 ship in combat in a near permanent basis. With the dedicated racial ECM modules (especially T2 and with mods/rigs) you have a 50-80% chance of jamming for a full 20 secs. If you fail a jam most times that gives your opponent if they are quick mind you a chance to lock and fire once maybe twice before they jam again. Most ECM pilots will only use a single module at a time and wait for a jam to happen to conserve cap as well as keep additional modules open for secondary and/or tertiary targets. The ability to do this to 1-3 people in combat and almost always at a range far enough away to ensure that you are not warp disrupted is superior to say the Gallentes ability to reduce range and lock times with disruptors. For sensor disruptors if you out of range you just move closer, but usually most of the opponents you want to shoot are already close enough. As far as lock times goes it doesn't matter once you lock. As it sits right now what makes the ECM superior to all other forms of ECM is the GO/NO GO nature of it. If it jams, then your combat options are nullified and you really have to wait and hope for the lock to miss a cycle. Most times for people this means sitting helplessly or running away. Against sensor dampeners you can at least wait for the lock time to go through or MWD closer in a hopes that you can get into your shorter targeting range which thankfully you can most times because you cant get webbed or scrambled until you are that close so.. anyways it gives you a way to overcome it. For ECM it doesn't matter if your jammed point blank or at distance.. a jam is still a jam for 20 secs. Modules while reducing your chance of a jam do not nullify its effects. As far as the devs go they know all this. I know many ideas have been posted on this. This is just my idea of a change that makes ECM more of an inconvenience like other forms of EWAR and not just an outright combat nullifier. Change ECM to chance to "miss" instead of chance to jam. Keep ECM against sensor strength but change it to a chance for all weapons and offensive mods to "miss" on cycle. In essence the ECM confuses the weapon targetting and for that cycle or shot the weapons/mods "miss". Missiles would have a chance to just fly wide. Guns just miss their target. I would keep the current ratio of ECM vs sensor str, so an ECM of 12 against a sensor strength of 24 would mean all weapons/mods would miss 50% of the time. If a target is hit by 2 ECM modules only the strongest module would apply. This is because the ECM is already buffed by modules/rigs on the ECM ship. You could still keep the dedicated racial modifications or this could be a chance to reduce confusion and get everything onto only a single flat sensor type. This would reduce the number of modules out there by eliminating 4 types of ECCM and the 4 types of ECM modules to a flat 1 type which would keep it in line with other forms of EWAR. I would think this would be a good thing database wise. On the one hand this may be more of a server load but honestly I think it makes ECM as fair as the other forms of EWAR. Feel free to flame away
John Blackthorn Foundation Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2009.06.02 04:41:00 - [480] I belive the ecm drones are just fine the way they are. They are typically used in small gang warfair to try to even up the odds. I've jumped through gates quite a few times to find myself out numbered and use the ecm drones to take out one damage dealer while I either fight the rest of the gang or try to make a run for it. Nerf or remove the ecm drones I'll just have to turn and mwd to the gate which annoy's the hell out of most people. I'd rather have the means to fight even if a bit out numbered than have to deal with people running to the gate every time. I do agree that the other drones need a boost. Web drones are too slow to web anything. Painters don't paint don't and neturalizing drones take a long time to have any effect.

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