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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
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CCP Nozh
C C P
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Posted - 2009.04.22 18:46:00 -
[1]
After reading through the "Balancing - Identifying problems" thread posted last Friday I noticed several issues that need my attention. We'll tackle these one at a time, allowing the original thread to live on. I'm going to start with a fairly straight forward issue (not the most popular one, but good to get us started) that should be properly resolved by us quickly.
How I view the ECM Drone problem:
The heavy Wasp EC-900's have 2 points of strength to all sensor types and a 20 second duration, equivalent to un-bonused Tech 1 multispectral jammers. Unlike the capacitor thirsty multispectral jammers they do not require any energy. Further more due to their small signature radius, once their victims gain the ability to target again, it takes quite a long time to acquire a lock in order to neutralize them. Most of the time you're facing multiple ECM Drones, which can be quite tricky to target and destroy, it becomes quite annoying. Electronic warfare doesn't really work properly against them, nor does small amounts of damage as the pilot is always able to scoop the drones and redeploy them. In some ways the drones are superior to targeted ECM jammers, as the drones operate even though you yourself are being target jammed. Smartbombs are able to counter them quite well, however this tactic only works while piloting larger ships that can field large smartbombs.
Ok,
Do I understand the problem correctly?
How would you like to see this fixed?
These are the questions you should be answering.
Discuss!
PS.
Tomorrow is the first day of summer in Iceland (7¦ and rain, heh) and a national holiday, I'll see you back here on Friday, hopefully with a lot of ideas to solve this issue.
Nozh
Game Designer
CCP Games |
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Poba
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2009.04.22 18:49:00 -
[2]
more drone nerfs ?
should i be surprised 
~Welcome to the internet, where the men are men, the women are men, and the children are FBI agents~ |
Tomin Highborn
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Posted - 2009.04.22 18:55:00 -
[3]
it was more that the other ew drones needed a buff.
web drones need to move faster since they can not web anything you want webed stuff like that
tomin
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Marlenus
Caldari
Ironfleet Towing And Salvage
Tear Extraction And Reclamation Service
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Posted - 2009.04.22 18:56:00 -
[4]
 Originally by: CCP Nozh
Smartbombs are able to counter them quite well, however this tactic only works while piloting larger ships that can field large smartbombs.
At the risk of being seen to derail the thread, does this maybe point to a problem with smartbombs, especially small ones? In all my time in EVE, I've never seen anybody use small smartbombs for anything, because of their short range. I wonder whether instead of "small = shorter range and less damage", it should be "small = less damage" and all the smartbombs should do the damage they do at the range larges currently get?
On the question at hand, it seems to me that heavy ECM drones replace a fairly high-damage heavy combat drone, which means they ought to be fairly effective. I'd focus any tweaks on improving the ease with which they can be countered. Maybe give them a larger sig radius, considering that they are out there spewing a ton of electronic noise?
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Ironfleet.com |
Rordan D'Kherr
Amarr
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Posted - 2009.04.22 18:57:00 -
[5]
Originally by: CCP Nozh
How I view the ECM Drone problem:
The heavy Wasp EC-900's have 2 points of strength to all sensor types and a 20 second duration, equivalent to un-bonused Tech 1 multispectral jammers. Unlike the capacitor thirsty multispectral jammers they do not require any energy. Further more due to their small signature radius, once their victims gain the ability to target again, it takes quite a long time to acquire a lock in order to neutralize them. Most of the time you're facing multiple ECM Drones, which can be quite tricky to target and destroy, it becomes quite annoying.
How would you like to see this fixed?
Why should a working module / drone type be fixed? ECCM works fnr drones, doesn't it?
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Sera Ryskin
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Posted - 2009.04.22 18:59:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Sera Ryskin on 22/04/2009 19:01:56
The problem is not heavy ECM drones, since few ships can use them effectively, and only if they give up a lot of dps. The bigger problem is medium drones, since so many ships are able to use a full set of them. There are really two problems here:
1) Lack of balance with other ewar drones. The combination of low strength and crippling stacking penalties make all of the other ewar drones pretty much useless, while ECM drones are incredibly effective. That leads to a very obvious choice, if you aren't using damage drones, you use ECM drones. Either ECM drones need to be nerfed heavily, or the other ewar drones need to be brought up to the level of ECM drones.
2) Too easy to use as a "get out of jail free" card. ECM drones have a fairly high chance of breaking lock on the first jam cycle, before you can even lock them to try to start killing them. And even if they fail, you have to immediately start killing the drones (even harder if they scoop as soon as they fail to jam) or the second/third/etc cycle will probably get the jam. Like the old pre-nerf WCS, this means you have a good chance of escaping any losing fight and there's nothing your opponent can do about it besides bring more tacklers (IOW, blob instead of solo).
Solving the second issue is a tricky problem, and would probably require changing the way ECM works. It's a delicate balance to make ECM drones effective enough over the entire fight to be worth bringing, but not so effective that they give a "get out of jail free" card just for putting them in your drone bay.
PS: if you want an easy straightforward issue to fix, try rockets or the Nighthawk/Cerberus grid issue. It would take all of about 30 seconds to fix both problems.
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Merin is currently enjoying a 14 day vacation from the forums. Until she returns, you've got me to entertain you!
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fugly ugly
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Posted - 2009.04.22 19:09:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Sera Ryskin
1) Lack of balance with other ewar drones. The combination of low strength and crippling stacking penalties make all of the other ewar drones pretty much useless, while ECM drones are incredibly effective. That leads to a very obvious choice, if you aren't using damage drones, you use ECM drones. Either ECM drones need to be nerfed heavily, or the other ewar drones need to be brought up to the level of ECM drones.
Stop nerfing things or just remove all ships from the game and let us fly around in the minmatar rookie ship. we would only be able to fit civilin equipment. that why every thing will be the same, there will be not stratige to the game and they you can all fly the same stuff.
just make the other e war drones better and dont make them a lot better just tweek it a bit see how it goes then a bit more. the failcon nerf is prof of this it went from being too good to crap in one patch.
tomin
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DigitalCommunist
November Corporation
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Posted - 2009.04.22 19:13:00 -
[8]
Remove all ECM drones in their current state from the game. Replace with 3 types, one that takes 25m3/25mbit as a light class, one that takes 50m3/50mbit as a medium class, one that takes 125m3/125mbit as a heavy class.
Increase jam strength and hp accordingly, reduce speed and effective range. Increase signature radius to be equivalent to a ship from that class (50m for light ecm, 150m for medium, 400m for heavy). Insert some RP bull**** about electronic warfare systems making it easy to spot.
The ECM effect should only break the target lock, but cycle time should be considerably longer (10-20 seconds?). In other words, you'd need a lot of ships each using their superdrone on a single target to achieve a continuous stream of jams that prevent any target lock. In my opinion, this is how all multispectral and ecm burst modules should work.
This would be ideal, but the problem is that considerably few ships from the frigate class have a full compliment of drones. Cruiser and Battleships that don't can easily fit undersized ECM drones, because there are more Cruisers with 25m3 than 50m3 and I think all BS have at least 50m3/bit. For frigates, I think only Ishkur does 25mbit but I'm sort of buzzed and can't be sure.
I would also like to point out, for the record, that EW drones were a stupid addition to the game. I would like tactical drones, not a replacement for medium slots at the expense of DPS.
How about kamikaze drones that deal big damage but get consumed? Sort of like turning my drones into missiles. Would give ships with a big bay an advantage even if they don't have huge bandwidth for continuous DPS (Arbitrator type)
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Perry
Amarr
The X-Trading Company
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2009.04.22 19:14:00 -
[9]
Problem: ECM Drones are too effective compared to other Drones in small scale PvP
Solution: Buff TP/RSD/TD/EN-Drones a bit so that a full fleight of them actually does something usefull for you. Then there will be choice.
Do not: Nerf ECM Drones with ccp-sladgehammer of nerfbat doom. Why? Because then everyone would have to use damage drones because all other dronetypes would be crap.
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Seishi Maru
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.04.22 19:27:00 -
[10]
Noooo!! You had to start with the least interesting one didn't you.. just like television news you start with the boring news :P
On my eyes I don 't see issues with Ecm drones sicen they are usually weaker than normal damage drones.
In fact they are the only viable way for breakign lock for non ECM dedicated ships. Something I think MUST remain in game.
I really think this issue shoudl be handled isn a SINGLE FULL e-war re-evaluation on eve. So in fact its the most complicated issue, not the easiest.
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Murashu
Agony's End
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Posted - 2009.04.22 19:34:00 -
[11]
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Do I understand the problem correctly?
How would you like to see this fixed?
I think you missed the point. ECM > all other forms of EWAR combined. Someone who is jammed cannot web/scramble/shoot/target/dampen/disrupt/remote rep, they can't do anything.
Balance all forms of EWAR then see if the drones are still unbalanced.
Murashu
Agony's End |
Seishi Maru
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.04.22 19:37:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Murashu
Originally by: CCP Nozh
Do I understand the problem correctly?
How would you like to see this fixed?
I think you missed the point. ECM > all other forms of EWAR combined. Someone who is jammed cannot web/scramble/shoot/target/dampen/disrupt/remote rep, they can't do anything.
Balance all forms of EWAR then see if the drones are still unbalanced.
THIS one understands
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Karrade Krise
Mid Knights
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Posted - 2009.04.22 19:43:00 -
[13]
reserved |
Grez
Minmatar
Core Contingency
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Posted - 2009.04.22 19:44:00 -
[14]
Some extra issues you need to be made aware of!
In addition to the issues you bring forward Nozh, you might want to be aware that pilots who are jammed via the drones cannot see the duration left on the cycle, so you're constantly left ctrl-clicking everything (which has a tendency to lock the game up if you spam it).
Fixing it's a tough issue. ECM in general is superior to every other EW, and it might be better to make ECM drones actually lower your maximum targets locked for 20 seconds each cycle.
Due to the chance based nature, and sometimes ECM getting incredibly lucky (there should be no such luck system in EVE btw ), it might be in your best nature to lock the amount of drones that can get a cycle at the same time (only two/three drones jamming the target at once for example). Examples:
Light ECM drones:
-1 target locked
10 seconds cycle
Medium ECM drones:
-1 target locked
15 seconds cycle
Heavy ECM drones:
-1 target locked
20 seconds cycle
Whilst it doesn't work the same way as ECM, I think it could introduce some new tactics regarding logistics in large gangs. |
Tomin Highborn
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Posted - 2009.04.22 19:59:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Grez
Fixing it's a tough issue. ECM in general is superior to every other EW, and it might be better to make ECM drones actually lower your maximum targets locked for 20 seconds each cycle.
So in 1v1 that means that the drones would be usless since they can lock you and it would not matter. just leave ecm drones alone they are fine. make web drones faster. and remove the staking penalty on all the other ewar drones treat them like seprate ships using one modual each. that would boost the other dornes alot
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Lewyrus
Jugis Modo Utopia
Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2009.04.22 20:02:00 -
[16]
The problem is, that the other ewar drones are virtually obsolete, friggin' useless compared the ECM drones. However, the current strength of the ECm drones are more or less fine, if you ask me.
I think boosting the other ewar drones is the best possible solution. Make them scary. Make them a good alternative.
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Cassius Longinus
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
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Posted - 2009.04.22 20:05:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Tomin Highborn
it was more that the other ew drones needed a buff.
This.
ECM drones are the only EW drone that is a realistic choice against normal damage-type drones (whichever size). The fact that I actually have to think about which drone type I want (ecm or damage) tells me that they are in fact well balanced.
Buff the other EW drones so that webbing drones or neut drones may matter. Good luck making TP drones a reasonable choice though.
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Vertical Axis
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Posted - 2009.04.22 20:06:00 -
[18]
ECM drones, alone, are not the problem. The problem is ECM in general.
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Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.04.22 20:06:00 -
[19]
My main problem with ECM drones is the "gtfo" option. Oh, I got cought? Let's just use the ECM drones and get out.
Another problem: ECM drones don't scale. They are highly effective at cruiser size, even light drones (they would be devastating on frigs, but few frigs field many drones), but not very effective at the BS level. The differences between the sizes are very off. E.g. Ogre IIs do twice the damage of Hammerhead IIs, but EC-900s are only 30% more effective than EC-600s.
As a proposed fix: Light -> Medium is +60%, Medium -> Heavy is +100%. Heavies are fine as is (5x heavy have 42% jam chance against another BS), so I guess EC-600s should be at strength 1 and the lights at 0.625 or so?
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El Yatta
Mercenary Forces
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Posted - 2009.04.22 20:07:00 -
[20]
Nozh, there really isn't a problem here.
Lets take a thorax, a typical ship caught using medium ECM drones and accused of being overpowered with them as it has a large bay for its ship size (50m3/mbit for a non-dedicated drone cruiser, as much as an Arbitrator, a dedicated drone cruiser).
If said rax chooses to use damage drones, with 5x Hammerhead IIs, it gains just shy of 160 DPS, which is around a THIRD of its 480 dps with electron IIs and 1 mag stab ( a typical setup). If you choose to use a setup with no damage mods its an even greater part of its DPS. Its the equivalent of having a max-skilled blaster Incursus as a wingman.
Conversely, if it chooses to use 5 Vespa EC-600s, it gets 5 individual dice-rolls of 1.5 strength each. By comparison, a max-skilled Griffin has 4 rolls at a whopping 6.3 strength each. There's just no comparison - the damage drones are the equivalent of the relevant t1 frigate, the ECM drones, nowhere near.
Conclusion - to use ECM drones you make an immense sacrifice in DPS, disproportionate to that actual strength of EW you get. This is fair enough, because you gain a new ability that your ship would otherwise be unable to do.
They are also by far the weakest drones, VERY easily dispatched.
The real problem is the lack of usefulness of the other kinds of EW drones. Damps, TD, painter, neut drones need a large boost. If there is an issue with smartbombs being a very poor counter, its an issue with smartbombs, not ECM drones.
Its also worth bearing in mind that the utility and flexibility of ECM drones (and theoretically TD/TP/SD/EV drones) can be used to balance so called "versatile" boats that are actually seriously lacking. The tempest, for example, has suffered a lot in recent years as its advantages - utility mid for ECM, utility highs for nos, have been nerfed. If it could have a huge bay, with a lot of versatility, and keep its bandwidth, then you could use drone versatility as an advantage.
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Mercenary Forces |
Tarminic
Aliastra
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Posted - 2009.04.22 20:12:00 -
[21]
In my opinion, you've missed a few things:
ECM on Drones
*This is a problem with ECM in general, but ECM drones illustrate it very well - their is no stacking nerf due to the way ECM mechanics work, while every other type of e-war drone is stacking-nerfed.
*The long relock time of drones in general works well in concert with ECM drones due to their damage.
*Once a jamming cycle starts, the pilot can immediately pull the ECM drones back into his dronebay. The drones will be off the field but their jamming persists for 20 seconds regardless if they're present or not.
Comparison vs. other E-war Drones
*A single large ECM drone has the effectiveness of a single unbonused module. (3 drones = 3 unbonused modules)
*A single large TP drone has 2/3rds the effectiveness of a single unbonused module. (3 Drones = ~1.6 unbonused modules)
*A single large dampener drone has about 180% the effectiveness of a single unbonused module (3 Drones = ~4.3 unbonused modules)
*A single large web drone has 1/3rd the effectiveness of a single unbonused module. (3 Drones = ~.9 unbonused modules)
*A single large TD drone has about 125% the effectiveness of a single unbonused module. (3 drones = ~3 unbonused modules)
Clearly, there is a significant amount of inconsistency regarding the different e-war drones.
Why would players give up 75 m3 of drone space for the effectiveness of a single T2 web? OR 75 m3 of drone space for less than two unbonused module's worth of target painting? Given how much DPS one loses by forsaking 3 large drones, medium ECM drones become the only viable option among e-war drones. Many ships have 50m3 of dronebay and drone bandwidth, and unlike drone ships they don't forsake a large proportion of their DPS to use them.
Solutions?
*Slightly reduce ECM drone's strength, say 25%
*Give all ships with a drone Damage Bonus a drone e-war effectiveness bonus - They have to sacrifice a greater percentage of their DPS to use e-war drones, which ironically makes them the least likely candidates to use them. They should have a significant (10% per level or more) bonus to their effectiveness on dedicated drone boats
*Remove stacking penalties from e-war drones
*Boost TP, web, SD, and TD drones so their usefulness, combined with the above, is a viable alternative to ECM drones
As always, thanks for listening. 
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Play EVE: Downtime Madness v0.83 (Updated 7/3) |
Rhaegor Stormborn
H A V O C
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Posted - 2009.04.22 20:13:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Rhaegor Stormborn on 22/04/2009 20:15:30
ECM drones are not a problem. As an avid PvPer I must make the choice if I want to use ECM drones or damage drones. I more often then not use damage drones, probably something like 90% of the time I use damage drones. I like to use ECm drones when I solo, specifically in a Hurricane. If you nerf ECM drones in any way, I can promise that I personally will never have to make that choice again, I will always use damage drones.
I hope that makes it pretty clear. Right now they are pretty damn balanced, if you nerf them, especially with the heavy hand that CCP nerfs everything, then I assume most people will never use ECM drones and we will have yet another useless module on the market that no one uses.
You want a balance issue to address? MINMATAR. Everything about MINMATAR is messed up right now. Capital ships, artillery, no fall off modules, tech 2 ammos, tech 1 ammos, our version of EW, our "niche" of being speedy and agility. IT IS ALL CRAP. Fix it.
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Bellum Eternus
Gallente
Death of Virtue
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Posted - 2009.04.22 20:17:00 -
[23]
Sure there's a problem here. It's the same problem that exists with all the rest of ECM: it completely shuts down the enemy ship.
The worst problem with ECM drones in particular is that if you're using 5x drones, whether they be light, medium or heavy, they basically have five chances per attack cycle to achieve a jam. It's like having 5x multispec ECM fit to your ship in a way, even though their strength isn't as much.
I think that cutting their jam strength in half or increasing their cooldown time to around 30-40 seconds (and maintaining their jam cycle time of 20 seconds) would be a good start.
Yes, the other EW drones are *terrible*, particularly the damp drones, but I think that's a seperate issue.
Bellum Eternus
Inveniam viam aut faciam.
Death of Virtue is Recruiting
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Theron Gyrow
Gradient
Electus Matari
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Posted - 2009.04.22 20:17:00 -
[24]
One strangeness is that heavy ECM drones have jam strength of 2, mediums 1.5 and lights 1. This means that heavy ECM drones are practically never worth using. I'd recommend either dropping the med/light jam strength (perhaps to 0.5/1) or increasing the heavy's to 3.
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Gradient forum |
Darth Felin
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Posted - 2009.04.22 20:18:00 -
[25]
I think that you understand problem wrong way Nozh. There are two issues imho. First one is that other ewar drones are crap so you have a choice only between ECM one and combat drones. Second issue is that ECM drones are annoying due to several bugs. You can not see remaining jam cycle duration. You can scoop/redeploy ECM drones after failed jam and try again BEFORE jam cycle expired.(it is more exploit that bug imho)
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Seishi Maru
M. Corp
Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2009.04.22 20:24:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Bellum Eternus
Sure there's a problem here. It's the same problem that exists with all the rest of ECM: it completely shuts down the enemy ship.
This is mportant. CCP wil never have ECM balanced while its effect is so stupid. ECM drones are not unbalanced.... ECM IDEA is unbalanced, dumb, ridiculous , bad game mechanic, anoying, irritating, frustrating...
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Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
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Posted - 2009.04.22 20:37:00 -
[27]
Yes, that is a decent enough mash-up of the issues related to EC-xxx drones.
I think Digitalcommie's idea is about right. Remove the actual jam cycle and make it a broken lock instead.
Combine it with reduced HP on all the variations so that smartbombs (other than large) and the lucky lock actually have an effect on them.
To all you claiming there is no problem:
The Thorax using ecm drones can easily go with 2 or 3 mag-stabs because he won't need a tank at all if against another cruiser - jam is guaranteed against other cruisers and smaller.
A Rupture can gank and use ecm drones to tank in a similar fashion, actually all ships with 25m3+ drones can use ecm drones as a tank when up against cruisers or smaller.
Pro-Tip: Next time you take a BC out and expect to fight a dual-logistics setup take a flight of ec-600, sic them on one .. wait 30-60s and then kill his buddy .. it is almost a sure-fire way of killing dual-logi setups
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Neddy Fox
Gallente
Paxton Industries
Paxton Federation
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Posted - 2009.04.22 20:43:00 -
[28]
ECM drones are not only used in offence.
For me, they are my "salamander tail". When ratting, I deploy, hope for a succesful jam and warp of, leaviung them behind like a salamander would do with it's tail.
Nerf is fine, give us options instead to escape pvp setup ships. (I'm not a carebear, but do need to rat to support my pvp).
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[PXIN Recruiter]
PXIN Recruitement thread |
Thebro Nobrunder
Schrodinger's Renegades
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Posted - 2009.04.22 21:03:00 -
[29]
Hmm, could adjusting bandwidth be an answer?
make medium ecm drones for example use 15 BW.
then a thorax could only use three of them.
Or change then so that a medium ecm drone does the damage of a light drone and has the ecm of a light drone?
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leaf ninja
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Posted - 2009.04.22 21:09:00 -
[30]
It might be interesting if ECM was changed slightly so that there was a not a flat chance of being jammed. Instead it would be a chance per target of losing lock or being unable to lock per enemy or per unit on the overview. So if you have 10 enemies, and there was a 90% chance of getting target jammed, you would still be able to lock on to 10% of the enemies that were there.
Visually, you can also have the targets that you can't lock onto "grey out" or flicker in an out on the overview. The tracking boxes for each unit that shows in space will also grey out. Anybody that you are able to lock onto, will still show as regular units on the overview.
The target would still have a possibility of locking onto something or stay locked onto a unit, so they would not be fully taken out of the fight. Rooks and Falcons would have to put on some sort of tank to survive 20 seconds before the next ECM round would begin. This would put them more in line with other recon ships, as other recon ships usually have some sort of tank on them as well. It may make the scorpion more popular as an ECM sniper ship as it would make the longer range the only way to stay out of combat.
I'm not sure how that would work out with the server/client part of eve. It may generate alot more network traffic and make fleet battles alot more laggy. It could make a slower computer lag a little when ECM is put into place.
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