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TZeer BURN EDEN	Posted - 2009.04.27 14:10:00 - [331] Originally by: lecrotta Edited by: lecrotta on 27/04/2009 12:49:57 A idea i proposed was for each ECCM unit to give a set ammount OR a % ammount depending on what ever was the greater benifit to the ship. Say 15 str or 100% boost (just a example). A ship with a base sig str of below 15 would get the 15 str boost as it would benifit the most from that, while any ship with a base sig str of above 15 would get the 100% boost as the gain would be greater. A frig with 10 sig: 10 sig + 15 = 25. vs 10 sig + 100% = 20. So the frig would get the set 15 amount. But a BS with 25 base sig 25 sig = 15 = 40. vs 25 sig = 100% = 50. So the BS would get the % amount. Dunno if you read my reply with maybe making the lowslot module giving a set amount of points extra. I was thinking around that area in regarding strength on the module. It would give a reason to use the lowslot module. Another thing with this is that frigs could use the lowslot module and boost their strength without giving up precious midslot thats needed for tackling. Yes? No? Crap?
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.04.27 14:12:00 - [332] Originally by: Seishi Maru then show me wich other ewar is not coutnerable with 3 dedicated modules.. Apocs normal lock range = 84.38km. Arazu with 3 x damps + optimal scripts. VS Apoc with 3 x sensor booster T2 with range scripts. Apocs new lock range with 3 "counters" = 48.48km.
lecrotta Minmatar lecrotta Corp	Posted - 2009.04.27 14:18:00 - [333] Originally by: TZeer Originally by: lecrotta A idea i proposed was for each ECCM unit to give a set ammount OR a % ammount depending on what ever was the greater benifit to the ship. Say 15 str or 100% boost (just a example). A ship with a base sig str of below 15 would get the 15 str boost as it would benifit the most from that, while any ship with a base sig str of above 15 would get the 100% boost as the gain would be greater. A frig with 10 sig: 10 sig + 15 = 25. vs 10 sig + 100% = 20. So the frig would get the set 15 amount. But a BS with 25 base sig 25 sig = 15 = 40. vs 25 sig = 100% = 50. So the BS would get the % amount. Dunno if you read my reply with maybe making the lowslot module giving a set amount of points extra. I was thinking around that area in regarding strength on the module. It would give a reason to use the lowslot module. Another thing with this is that frigs could use the lowslot module and boost their strength without giving up precious midslot thats needed for tackling. Yes? No? Crap? Its a ok idea although a shield tanker in a ship with a high base sig str may get a little miffed at it. Giving both the mid and low slot modules your idea about a set amount effect but also a % (depending on whatever is of the greater benifit) would proly help prevent caldari BS and CS ect pilots sending hit men after you though....
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2009.04.27 14:50:00 - [334] So yet again something that use useful enough to make you consider switching out a bit of dps needs to be nerfed to the ground so we dont have to even consider something other than dps drones. And yea this is my sig. Real PVP'ers only use f1.
Threv Echandari Caldari K Directorate	Posted - 2009.04.27 16:17:00 - [335] Waht is the matter here? The Falcon Nerf Not enough... you don't want any players having any chance nomatter matter how small to get away or win the fight agaoinst superior odds? ECM Drones are fine. Why does everything have to be a nerf? Boost the other non Combat Drones (remove their Stacking panelties) instead of Nerfing another thing. Why get rid of something that is effective? Otherwise just get rid of them and give everyone Pew-pew drones and we will all be the same. ---------------------------------------- Happiness is a Wet Pod
Sonreir Gallente Band of Builders Inc. Libera Alliance	Posted - 2009.04.27 18:16:00 - [336] Originally by: Murina If you choose to read only the posts that support some of the silly ideas for nerfing ECM on the last 10 pages thats your choice but i see plenty of posts saying they are fine, if you do not see them then id suggest glasses or more probably a psychiatrist. Well the fact that this discussion has gone on for so many page is a clear indication that many people believe there is a problem. Otherwise it would have died down in a page or two, no? So why are you trying to discourage discussion on this topic when so many feel it needs to be addressed? I'm afraid that resorting to belittling people and name calling is not a very efficient way of making a point. Since you obviously feel that ECM drones are balanced, why not post some actual information that supports that view rather than spend all of your time shooting everyone else down? Originally by: Murina On the other hand a player looking for a fight will not be so inclined to be fitted for escape and evasion, he will be fitted with whatever forms of tank/gank that suit his ship and style and if he has ECM drones fitted it is going to be mostly for their offensive ability to reduce the DPS of his target/s allowing him to POSSIBLY be more effective against single targets that could normally be too much for him or even against multiple targets to reduce the ammount of overall DPS he has to constantly tank. That's right. I must have forgetten those times when warp core stabs used to a standard fitting for ships like the Vagabond, Deimos, and Zealot. Or maybe all those times when people fitted nanofibers and overdrives so that they could control a fight and run away if needed?
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.04.27 18:46:00 - [337] Originally by: Sonreir Originally by: Murina If you choose to read only the posts that support some of the silly ideas for nerfing ECM on the last 10 pages thats your choice but i see plenty of posts saying they are fine, if you do not see them then id suggest glasses or more probably a psychiatrist. Well the fact that this discussion has gone on for so many page is a clear indication that many people believe there is a problem. Otherwise it would have died down in a page or two, no? NO, a lot of ppl disagree with the OP and think there is no peoblem and are posting to say so. In fact on this very page you are the only person with a issue with the ECM effect, every other poster is fine with the way ECM works although a few think ECCM needs adjusing AS DO I BTW. Originally by: Sonreir That's right. I must have forgetten those times when warp core stabs used to a standard fitting for ships like the Vagabond, Deimos, and Zealot. Hardly supprising when you consider how long ago it was...im talking about the here and now, but if you want a walk down memory lane go ahead id love to hear a few reminders about the dual MWD or heat sink era. Originally by: Sonreir Or maybe all those times when people fitted nanofibers and overdrives so that they could control a fight and run away if needed? AAHH the nano age it was a delight to actually dog fight in pvp, but alas it took the blame for other ppls incompetance and was nerfed heavily. You are aware that the most popular and used contemporary PVP fits use armour plates dont you?. I did actually say "whatever forms of tank/gank that suit his ship and style" though, and i do know a few contemporary fits that still somewhat use speed as a tank although some of the cruiser hulls that use it tend to need a tracking disruptor and cannot fight multiuple ships as well as the good old days. But yes they do have the advantage of MAYBE being able to break off and get away as long as whatever ships they are running from are slower than they are. So apart from a trip down memory lane and a couple of cruiser hulls that can combine speed and a tracking disruptor to tank in 1 v 1 solo work MAYBE being able to run away, do you have anything of relavance to add?.
Esmenet Gallente	Posted - 2009.04.27 19:22:00 - [338] Edited by: Esmenet on 27/04/2009 19:24:53 Originally by: Sonreir Since you obviously feel that ECM drones are balanced, why not post some actual information that supports that view rather than spend all of your time shooting everyone else down? Most ships bring damage drones. In a few situations/ships it can be useful to also bring ecm or repper drones. The rest of the drones are never used. Nerfing ecm drones will just remove one more option for drones. Imagine a neutron blaster mega with T2 guns, an all lvl 5 skill char and 3 mags stabs. Now how often would you switch 2,5 turrethardpoints/high slots for one midslot where you could fit an unbonused multispec jammer. Because thats what you do if you sacrifice 5 ogres for ec-900's. And yea this is my sig. Real PVP'ers only use f1.
Cutie Chaser Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2009.04.27 20:29:00 - [339] This thread shows how out of touch some people are with the game, and I say this for one reason... EC-900? Seriously, why does this drone enter into this entire discussion AT ALL? The only time you see EC-900 is on honour-tanked dread, laser-ravens(lavens), and the never-popular 4x heatsink 8x nuetron blaster abbaddon. NO ONE uses these, but still 12 pages later people are even mentioning them? If you want to balance ECM just scale back lights and mediums to be as **ty as heavy ECM drones and you'll be fine. Use 900's as a good measure of how to make something so pointless that no one in their right mind would use them except in the narrowest of circumstances. Leave the ECM values on 900's the same 600's drop down to 1/2 as effective as 900's 300's are half as effective as 600's. This effectively halves the effectiveness of lights and reduces mediums by 33%, and it makes sense in a twisted sort of way. Now all of them will be as useless as the often discussed by never utilized heavy ECM drone. * Thats a Templar, the amarr fighter. Its a combat drone used by carriers.
Narcil Starwind Exa Utopia	Posted - 2009.04.27 21:09:00 - [340] Originally by: CCP Nozh Ok, I'm sitting at home reading over this thread. Brainstorming about new ECM mechanics, help me out: I was going to post this in it's own thread but since you asked, and I hope are still watching this thread I'll post my Idea here. EWAR in all it's forms is supposed to be about evening the playing field when your outnumbered or tipping it even further in your favor if it's even. In their own way each form gives some sort of bonus through reduction of opponent DPS (turret disruption), increasing your own DPS (Target Painters), and hampering locking (ECM and Sensor Damps). The current problem is that ECM when it hits reduces the opponent DPS to 0 (Sensor Damps can do this as well but only in limited cases since they were nerfed). This is currently counter balanced by the chance based nature of the mechanic. It is possible by reducing the strength that you could bring it's effectiveness in line with other EWAR, but that's not the heart of the matter. The real problem is that the mechanic is not fun, and is overly annoying to both parties. My proposal is this. ECM should be a deterministic behavior. You should still be able to break locks but it should not be an instant chance at module activation. The first change I would make would be to alter the ships sensors to be a stat similar to shields and Cap that can be depleted and has a recharge time. The level of your Sensors should effect the quality of your lock on a ship. When your sensors are at 90%+ you do 100% damage. 90% and below and you start to have problems with your weapons missing. ECM should damage your sensors and their DPS would depend on the ratio of ECM/Sensor Strength. So if your sensors have a recharge of 3hps at 70% strength and the enemies ECM does damage at 3dps your sensors would stabilize at 70%. If they brought another ECM module against you to increase their dps to 6dps you would stabilize at 6hps at 55% strength. Like Shields the recharge would increase the lower your sensors get. In order to break your lock the ECM ship would have to drop your strength to ~20%. After the lock is broken your sensors have to recalibrate and you become immune to ECM and get double recharge until you've reached 100%. Once your Sensors are back up to 50% you can begin to re-lock targets.(This is all napkin math and not at all representative of the values I would actually use. It needs lovely exponential functions and graphs) This type of system would give many avenues for balance, and if actually breaking the targets lock is made difficult enough then the average behavior you'll see is simple dps reduction. In this way ECM maintains it's ability to act as a force multiplier while not taking all the fun out of the opposing fleet. This also allows for a more natural interaction between ECCM and ECM since ECCM will increase your sensor strength and max recharge like extenders do for shields. This could also be balanced so that the net result of DPS reduction is the same between this system and the old where the reduction is over the length of the fight instead of bursts of 0 dps for extended periods of time. This also makes ECM viable on other ships since it will have some noticeable effect even if the strength is low. Focused ships like the falcon and rook, could decide between reducing the dps of multiple ships or focusing all modules on one ship to break the lock. Finally I would exchange all the ECM modules for scripts and make a single ECM module that is scriptable, while reducing the number of ECM modules that can be fit on the focused ships to like 2-4. this would allow these ships to be effective while still able to fit tanks or other mid slot modules. In my perfect world all the races recons could use all forms of EWAR while being bonused in their respective types. Currently ECM on any ship not bonused for it is mostly for LOLs and those that want a minute chance of escape. Also the other EWARS need a little love.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.27 23:03:00 - [341] Originally by: Bellum Eternus If smartbombs are going to be a valid defense tactic vs. ECM drones then the distance lockout for smartbombs around stations and gates needs to be removed. Or just change it so that smartbombs no longer hit stations or gates. Not being able to defend yourself vs. ECM drones because you're too close to a station is lame. Unfortunately(as it would bring new offensive tactics against RR gangs as well), its too easy to abuse. Originally by: Murina Originally by: Rordan D'Kherr ECM is not available for all? o.0 Thats the thing that ppl tend to ignore. T2 multispec jammers on a NON-bonused ship can get upto 4.7 jam str while EC-600 only get 1.5 jam str, but do we see ppl with multispecs fitted in their mids or ppl complaining that they were "perma jammed" by a BC with multispec ECM's fitted?. NOPE. T2 multi-specs require low slots for that, the drones do not. The most you can reasonably get otherwise is 2.5%. 1.5 jam strength per drone produces a higher chance to jam than the single multi-spec for most instances
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.04.27 23:38:00 - [342] Originally by: Goumindong T2 multi-specs require low slots for that, the drones do not. The most you can reasonably get otherwise is 2.5%. 1.5 jam strength per drone produces a higher chance to jam than the single multi-spec for most instances Unless things have changed again T2 multispecs get 3 on normal ships plus another 20% for overheat. But it uses a slot so most ppl would not fit it even if it gave more than that, while losing the damage from your drones for a chance to reduce incoming DPS is (in some circumstances/on some ships) much more preferable using up a slot/slots.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2009.04.28 02:43:00 - [343] 2.4 base t2, 25% skill -> 3.0 normal. 3.0 x 1.2 overload = 3.6. You claimed 4.7. You need low slots for that.
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.04.28 09:27:00 - [344] Edited by: Murina on 28/04/2009 09:28:40 Originally by: Goumindong 2.4 base t2, 25% skill -> 3.0 normal. 3.0 x 1.2 overload = 3.6. You claimed 4.7. You need low slots for that. I know what i initially said and i never denied needing low slots for it. I later corrected your non low slot figures from you inacuratly saying it made 2.5 when it was clearly much higher 3 + 20% overheat so 3.6. Do pay attention and if ytou are going to try and correct ppl and least do it clearly and well correctly would be good as well.
AntonioBanderas Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2009.04.28 12:12:00 - [345] Edited by: AntonioBanderas on 28/04/2009 12:15:54 this is really, like, REALLY stupid instead of beating around the bush and inventing hot water, all ACM problems could have been solver by simply boosting ECCM. now the system is broken again, and yeah, i think we should nerf things again. gg ** this why the ** am i posting here anyway __________________________________________________ I can say ASS!!! And **!!!! \o/
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2009.04.28 13:22:00 - [346] Edited by: General Coochie on 28/04/2009 13:26:02 If you compare dps loss from using ewar drones with the dps advantage you gain over ecming one ship the same size as you and 5 ecm drones of same size, the ecm dones doesn't give that much of an advantage. If you are in a bigger ship facing a few smaller ships, dps drones would be much better. If you are in many small ships vs a big ship ecm drones are much better. In my opinion thats quite balanced. But as you wrote in OP its very hard to blow up ECM drones when someone who knows how to use them field them. Personally I killed every ECM drone thorax I met in my dps drone thorax. Ppl don't realize you should scoop ecm drones when they did their work and only let em out for a new cycle when needed. That said the ECM effect of the drones doesn't need a nerf. What could need a change is Small and medium smartbomb damage, make it so if you sacrifice one high for a smartbomb it would post a very serious threat to the drones. ECM drone structure, armor and shield hp, make it so if you sacrifice one high for a smartbomb it would post a very serious threat to the drones. AND/OR maybe make drones unscoopable during their ECM cycle, for 20s. So you can't deploy, ecm, scoop and keep em safe after they did their work. As I said I don't think its the drones jamming strength thats the problem, but that if used correctly almost impossible to kill while still giving the user maximum effect. Also. BUFF the other EW drones! Got Cooch?, solo PvP movie
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.04.28 13:41:00 - [347] Originally by: General Coochie That said the ECM effect of the drones doesn't need a nerf. I agree. Originally by: General Coochie What could need a change is Small and medium smartbomb damage, make it so if you sacrifice one high for a smartbomb it would pose a very serious threat to the drones. Would giving all sizes of smartbombs the same range but obviousy less dmg for meds, smalls help?. Originally by: General Coochie ECM drone structure, armor and shield hp, make it so if you sacrifice one high for a smartbomb it would pose a very serious threat to the drones. Do you mean less HP ect ect as you are a little unclear. Or do you mean giving smart bombs a kind of reverse effect that bombs and missiles get. IE: small targets like drones get hit harder?. Originally by: General Coochie AND/OR maybe make drones unscoopable during their ECM cycle, for 20s. So you can't deploy, ecm, scoop and keep em safe after they did their work. This should also happen even if the ECM effect fails. So if the drones are let out and set to attack you cannot scoop them for 20s, if they attack with a new cycle again they shouldn't be scoopable for 20s. Thats not un reasonable although you could force them to be unresponsive in general during the jam cycle as ships at range could call them back to orbit outside weapon/web smartbomb range. Originally by: General Coochie Also. BUFF the other EW drones! Oh yea!!!!!!.
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2009.04.28 13:47:00 - [348] Quote: Would giving all sizes of smartbombs the same range but obviousy less dmg for meds, smalls help?. I dont know. I know I tried opping ecm drones with a med smartbomb sometime ago, and it was nor worth the sacrifice of the highslot. Something I think it should be. I think just a few cycles of a smartbomb, maybe 2, should pop the drones. Quote: Do you mean less HP ect ect as you are a little unclear. Or do you mean giving smart bombs a kind of reverse effect that bombs and missiles get. IE: small targets like drones get hit harder?. Since buffing smartbomb dmg can prove imbalanced in other scenarios it might be a better idea to reduce the ecm drones hp. The reason for reducing would be for them to die quicker from smartbombs but also from any other direct fire. Quote: Thats not un reasonable although you could force them to be unresponsive in general during the jam cycle as ships at range could call them back to orbit outside weapon/web smartbomb range. yes I guess thats a very good addition to my idea. Make them unresponisve for 20s after attacking. Otherwise if you are fighting at a bit of a range you could just recall them. Got Cooch?, solo PvP movie
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2009.04.28 13:53:00 - [349] BTW I see some ppl compares ECM drones to the ecm modules. I can't be arsed to read the whole thread but 5 med neut drones neut as much as a t2 med neut I think. 5 large drones neut as much as a large neut etc. So if 5 large ECM drones ecm as much as a ecm module I don't see that as a problem. Got Cooch?, solo PvP movie
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.04.28 14:01:00 - [350] Edited by: Murina on 28/04/2009 14:05:14 Originally by: General Coochie Since buffing smartbomb dmg can prove imbalanced in other scenarios it might be a better idea to reduce the ecm drones hp. The reason for reducing would be for them to die quicker from smartbombs but also from any other direct fire. However what you are suggesting would also work, but I dont know how that would be implemented in game play terms, cause that would make frigs more vulnerable to smartbombs as well and I don't know if thats a good idea. I suppose the basic programming/calculation would be simular to how normal bombs work against ship/sig sizes but in reverse, and a size limitation to the mechanic would be easy to implement to keep frig pilots happy as after all in the reverse way a bomb calculates its DMG it does not hit a titan harder tham a MS. Originally by: General Coochie but 5 med neut drones neut as much as a t2 med neut I think. 5 large drones neut as much as a large neut etc. So if 5 large ECM drones ecm as much as a ecm module I don't see that as a problem. 5 x med neut drones drain 10 cap per 6 secs (so 100 every 12 secs), the best named med neut drains 180 every 12 secs and can be overheated. But the drones obviously make up for it with greater range.
General Coochie The Bastards	Posted - 2009.04.28 16:14:00 - [351] You are correct. I remember comparing neuts and drones. And I must have compared it with small neut! So yeah 5 med neut drones = a small neut. Well that sucks a bit , buff em! Got Cooch?, solo PvP movie
Murina Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2009.04.28 16:25:00 - [352] Originally by: General Coochie You are correct. I remember comparing neuts and drones. And I must have compared it with small neut! So yeah 5 med neut drones = a small neut. Well that sucks a bit , buff em! I think the other ewar drones need a buff but remember that they have a lot greater range than neuts ect. A med neut drone does around 3500ms mwd speed and has a range of nearly 60km.
5pinDizzy	Posted - 2009.04.28 19:39:00 - [353] Why do E900's even exist? It's not like we have all light medium and heavy versions of the other drones. Only a heavy version of webber drones though I think a medium one should be introduced. Get rid of E900's I say. if you disagree with me then you should probably post a response and stop reading my signature.
5pinDizzy	Posted - 2009.04.28 19:54:00 - [354] Edited by: 5pinDizzy on 28/04/2009 19:57:29 What are you going to neut with 5x medium or light neut drones anyway? Ok you have tons of range but how does that make up for them being complete suck compared to combat drones? An inceptor might feel slightly threatened even though an interceptor can outrun the lights and the mediums just staying of of their range and pretty much one salvo them all. So they're all dead in about 5 seconds. It won't really scratch the capacitor of a cruiser or bigger either. If the range is an issue maybe the range of ewar drones should be cut by 50% or more to make them more useful. imagines a ship with ewar drones that have a 20km range being disrupted by a tackler with a ship bonused 30km disruptor if you disagree with me then you should probably post a response and stop reading my signature.
Omara Otawan	Posted - 2009.04.29 03:03:00 - [355] I know I'm impatient, but how about a small update regarding all that feedback maybe?
Thalene	Posted - 2009.04.29 03:19:00 - [356] It's already been mentioned but... mentioning large ECM drones which are never used, do you even play this game? Larges with their flat 0.5 jam strength increase over meds for 2.5 time the drone bay is pure fail when they could be ogres (opportunity cost and all that) so nerf meds and smalls if you must but don't screw over larges! If anything they need to be boosted along with all the non ecm e-war drones.
Random Womble Minmatar Emo Rangers Electric Monkey Overlords	Posted - 2009.04.29 03:52:00 - [357] IMHO EWar drones should have their effectiveness halved but be effected by both the drone interfacing skill and drone ship bonuses making them a tactical option for those ships at for them the expense of the majority of their DPS. However might have to not be effected by the overpowered bonus of the moros.
Christina Bamar Agony Unleashed Agony Empire	Posted - 2009.04.29 10:43:00 - [358] Threads like these make it blatantly clear which posters actually pvp and which posters know how to EFT and do math. Heavy ECM drones are very underpowered. Ewar drones in general are very very underpowered. Medium/light ECM drones are good, but situational, fine as they are. Anyone who actually pvps knows that ECM drones aren't overpowered, if they were then everyone would use them. When at least 95% of drones you see are combat drones how can you claim that ECM drones are out of balance? Please BOOST other ewar and utility drones to bring them in line with light/medium ECM drones so that there's actually a decision to be made when picking drones beyond thermal or explosive. CEO, Agony Unleashed
Rhadamantine Game Community	Posted - 2009.04.29 15:25:00 - [359] Originally by: Christina Bamar Threads like these make it blatantly clear which posters actually pvp and which posters know how to EFT and do math. Heavy ECM drones are very underpowered. Ewar drones in general are very very underpowered. Medium/light ECM drones are good, but situational, fine as they are. Anyone who actually pvps knows that ECM drones aren't overpowered, if they were then everyone would use them. When at least 95% of drones you see are combat drones how can you claim that ECM drones are out of balance? Please BOOST other ewar and utility drones to bring them in line with light/medium ECM drones so that there's actually a decision to be made when picking drones beyond thermal or explosive. This says it all tbh.
Zhula Guixgrixks Increasing Success by Lowering Expectations Ev0ke	Posted - 2009.04.29 15:51:00 - [360] Best post so far: Originally by: Christina Bamar ..... Heavy ECM drones are very underpowered. Ewar drones in general are very very underpowered. Medium/light ECM drones are good, but situational, fine as they are. .....Please BOOST other ewar and utility drones to bring them in line with light/medium ECM drones Eve needs WORKING TP-,TD-,damp- and neutralizer drones. In post-QR time the release of small/med web drones could also be considered. If I remember correctly, those are already inside the data base (Warrior SW-300, Valkyrie SW-600). Chance based scram/disruptor drones could also bring more fun to Eve world.

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