Originally by: Terror Rising

---

Didn't Ken / Bob try and do this once and fail anyway?

---

Originally by: Terror Rising

---

Didn't Ken / Bob try and do this once and fail anyway?

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

Originally by: Terror Rising

---

Didn't Ken / Bob try and do this once and fail anyway?

---

No, they made a campaign called "MAX" which wasn't about gaining SOV. It was simply about doing MAXimum Damage.

BoB humbly accepted Delve as their home. They had the means to take down more regions, I'm sure.

---

Originally by: Hey You

---

No one will control all of 0.0 evva. Because game mechanics don't allow it without a effort such is like 2 years of shooting poses and everyone gets tired of that way sooner.

So doesn't matter what coalition you have nor size of said coalition.

It might have been possible in the past and we all know who came closest to actually do it.

---

Originally by: Hey You

---

It might have been possible in the past and we all know who came closest to actually do it.

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

Sure it does. Through diplomacy. Sure they may not all carry the same name but it will be one giant coalition.

No one will have the balls to leave this coalition and attempt to initiate another conflict. They will be too afraid of the massive NAPfest annihilating them.

So, I fear that New Eden is about to go through its "Pax Romanus" era.

---

Originally by: Flinx Evenstar

---

Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 04/05/2009 19:39:16
Posting in a "sky is falling" thread

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

With these massive power blocks NAPing each other and smashing KenZoku into nothingness,

---

I don't think Kenny will agree with that statement.

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

This isn't a conflict of skill.

---

Originally by: Helen

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

This isn't a conflict of skill.

---

where has there been a conflict of skill in eve?

---

Originally by: Virum Acuedalla

---

This is what makes Eve such a wonderful game. Invariably after the take over of Delve is complete and things "settle down", you're going to see someone get ambitious. Be it because of disgruntled leadership, new leadership etc. one of the many alliances may try to make a run at the NC, or they tear themselves apart. It may not happen for a while but everyone gets bored some time, and when that happens it will be all out war again.

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

2.) Espionage/Manipulation.

---

Originally by: Flinx Evenstar

---

Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 04/05/2009 20:01:13

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

2.) Espionage/Manipulation.

---

You do realise that there is far more skill involved in that than waiting a few days to train a skill, then press F1

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

Edited by: Teki Caldrum on 04/05/2009 19:59:31

Originally by: Helen

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

This isn't a conflict of skill.

---

where has there been a conflict of skill in eve?

---

That's actually quite funny. Considering you're a goonie.

There haven't been many conflicts your alliance has engaged in which were skill based.

Your alliance relies entirely on one tactic, well as of late, two.

1.) Attrition.
2.) Espionage/Manipulation.

Why did GoonSwarm need to force BoB to disband before taking Delve? I'm sure none of it had anything to do with skill?

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

Are you trying to say that skill in EVE-Online is denoted by how much SP you have?

lol.

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

1.) Attrition.

---

Originally by: Helen

---

you not going to answer me then?

when has there been a conflict of skill in eve? (don't include 1v1's)

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

So, I fear that New Eden is about to go through its "Pax Romanus" era.

---

Originally by: Snowden Vel

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

1.) Attrition.

---

Please take a moment and explain how attrition is not a part of every war.

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

Most military theorists[who?] and strategics like Sun Tzu have viewed attrition warfare as something to be avoided.

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

Edited by: Teki Caldrum on 04/05/2009 19:25:13

Originally by: Terror Rising

---

Didn't Ken / Bob try and do this once and fail anyway?

---

No, they made a campaign called "MAX" which wasn't about gaining SOV. It was simply about doing MAXimum Damage.

BoB humbly accepted Delve as their home. They had the means to take down more regions, I'm sure.

However, unlike GoonSwarm, they liked to keep enemies. Which, in my opinion, is in good sportsmanship. What is the point of NAPing everyone and gaining complete control.

There will be minimal conflicts. Major power blocks will dictate if you're even *ABLE* to live in 0.0. It's unfair monopolization.

IMHO, it's going to ruin this aspect of the game.

---

Originally by: Flinx Evenstar

---

Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 04/05/2009 20:25:07

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

Most military theorists[who?] and strategics like Sun Tzu have viewed attrition warfare as something to be avoided.

---

Sun Tzu was well known for playing spaceship video games. You just need to throw in a reference to a well known european fascist dictator, and you can achieve Godwins law on the first page.

Edit: too slow, second page already, you could probably make up for it with some space Bushido quotes, and e-honour

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

Edited by: Teki Caldrum on 04/05/2009 20:19:43

Originally by: Snowden Vel

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

1.) Attrition.

---

Please take a moment and explain how attrition is not a part of every war.

---

Well, lets first look at what Attrition Warfare is.

Attrition Warfare is: Attrition Warfare is a tactic in which one party in a conflict attempts to wear down the other through use of superior forces in NUMBER. Meaning Quantity.

This will also help you understand:
Most military theorists[who?] and strategics like Sun Tzu have viewed attrition warfare as something to be avoided. In the sense that attrition warfare represents an attempt to grind down an opponent through superior numbers, it represents the opposite of the usual principles of war, where one attempts to achieve decisive victories through manoeuvre, concentration of force, surprise, and the like. On the other hand, a side which perceives itself to be at a marked disadvantage in manoeuvre warfare or unit tactics may deliberately seek out attrition warfare to neutralize its opponent's advantages.

---

Originally by: Snowden Vel

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

Edited by: Teki Caldrum on 04/05/2009 20:19:43

Originally by: Snowden Vel

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

1.) Attrition.

---

Please take a moment and explain how attrition is not a part of every war.

---

Well, lets first look at what Attrition Warfare is.

Attrition Warfare is: Attrition Warfare is a tactic in which one party in a conflict attempts to wear down the other through use of superior forces in NUMBER. Meaning Quantity.

This will also help you understand:
Most military theorists[who?] and strategics like Sun Tzu have viewed attrition warfare as something to be avoided. In the sense that attrition warfare represents an attempt to grind down an opponent through superior numbers, it represents the opposite of the usual principles of war, where one attempts to achieve decisive victories through manoeuvre, concentration of force, surprise, and the like. On the other hand, a side which perceives itself to be at a marked disadvantage in manoeuvre warfare or unit tactics may deliberately seek out attrition warfare to neutralize its opponent's advantages.

---

at⋅tri⋅tion
   /əˈtrɪʃən/ Pronunciation [uh-trish-uhn]
ûnoun
1. a reduction or decrease in numbers, size, or strength

---

Originally by: The Mittani

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

Edited by: Teki Caldrum on 04/05/2009 19:25:13

Originally by: Terror Rising

---

Didn't Ken / Bob try and do this once and fail anyway?

---

No, they made a campaign called "MAX" which wasn't about gaining SOV. It was simply about doing MAXimum Damage.

BoB humbly accepted Delve as their home. They had the means to take down more regions, I'm sure.

However, unlike GoonSwarm, they liked to keep enemies. Which, in my opinion, is in good sportsmanship. What is the point of NAPing everyone and gaining complete control.

There will be minimal conflicts. Major power blocks will dictate if you're even *ABLE* to live in 0.0. It's unfair monopolization.

IMHO, it's going to ruin this aspect of the game.

---

someone who is a proud member of goodfellas speaks knowledgeably and accurately about the future course of politics in eve

ahahah tell me another one

---

Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk

---

you don't need superior numbers to fight a war of attrition

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

Well, lets first look at what Attrition Warfare is.

Attrition Warfare is: Attrition Warfare is a tactic in which one party in a conflict attempts to wear down the other through use of superior forces in NUMBER. Meaning Quantity.

This will also help you understand:
Most military theorists[who?] and strategics like Sun Tzu have viewed attrition warfare as something to be avoided. In the sense that attrition warfare represents an attempt to grind down an opponent through superior numbers, it represents the opposite of the usual principles of war, where one attempts to achieve decisive victories through manoeuvre, concentration of force, surprise, and the like. On the other hand, a side which perceives itself to be at a marked disadvantage in manoeuvre warfare or unit tactics may deliberately seek out attrition warfare to neutralize its opponent's advantages.

---

Originally by: BuIIseye

---

Originally by: Virum Acuedalla

---

This is what makes Eve such a wonderful game. Invariably after the take over of Delve is complete and things "settle down", you're going to see someone get ambitious. Be it because of disgruntled leadership, new leadership etc. one of the many alliances may try to make a run at the NC, or they tear themselves apart. It may not happen for a while but everyone gets bored some time, and when that happens it will be all out war again.

---

You mean like the time ED/IRC started a new conflict with RA after BoB was disbanded and ended up having some of their assets stolen by goons, atacked by RA, UNL, Rebelion and whatever other alliance from the south and Majesta and the rest of the NC b-teams from the west in a classic 10 alliance vs 3 blob warfare?

Yes, i too think EVE will resume its fair non-blob honorable conflics once the things "settle down".

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

Originally by: Flinx Evenstar

---

Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 04/05/2009 20:25:07

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

Most military theorists[who?] and strategics like Sun Tzu have viewed attrition warfare as something to be avoided.

---

Sun Tzu was well known for playing spaceship video games. You just need to throw in a reference to a well known european fascist dictator, and you can achieve Godwins law on the first page.

Edit: too slow, second page already, you could probably make up for it with some space Bushido quotes, and e-honour

---

While EVE-online is a spaceship video game. Many IRL naval tactics can still be used within it.

While this is digital make-believe warfare. So are the flight simulators that aviators utilize.

So are the video games four and five star generals use to understand tactics better.

So are games like America's Army that US Soldiers use to understand warfare better.

Digital simulation, while make believe, is an effective way to understand warfare.

Man created war. Man created games that employ war.

It's all the same.

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

Originally by: Snowden Vel

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

1.) Attrition.

---

---

Ah, Snowden Vel. Your time in goonswarm has diminished your intelligence.

Remember, the word "attrition" is only ONE part of the tactical designation known as "ATTRITION WARFARE". Congratulations, you have been educated.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attrition_warfare

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

BoB humbly accepted Delve as their home. They had the means to take down more regions, I'm sure.

However, unlike GoonSwarm, they liked to keep enemies. Which, in my opinion, is in good sportsmanship. What is the point of NAPing everyone and gaining complete control.

There will be minimal conflicts. Major power blocks will dictate if you're even *ABLE* to live in 0.0. It's unfair monopolization.

---

Originally by: Shamis Orzoz

---

I hate all you ***gots, and will have no qualms about turning on all our allies as soon as KenDoucheKu is dead.

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

Originally by: Flinx Evenstar

---

Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 04/05/2009 20:25:07

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

Most military theorists[who?] and strategics like Sun Tzu have viewed attrition warfare as something to be avoided.

---

Sun Tzu was well known for playing spaceship video games. You just need to throw in a reference to a well known european fascist dictator, and you can achieve Godwins law on the first page.

Edit: too slow, second page already, you could probably make up for it with some space Bushido quotes, and e-honour

---

While EVE-online is a spaceship video game. Many IRL naval tactics can still be used within it.

While this is digital make-believe warfare. So are the flight simulators that aviators utilize.

So are the video games four and five star generals use to understand tactics better.

So are games like America's Army that US Soldiers use to understand warfare better.

Digital simulation, while make believe, is an effective way to understand warfare.

Man created war. Man created games that employ war.

It's all the same.

---

Originally by: Elo Behram

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

BoB humbly accepted Delve as their home. They had the means to take down more regions, I'm sure.

However, unlike GoonSwarm, they liked to keep enemies. Which, in my opinion, is in good sportsmanship. What is the point of NAPing everyone and gaining complete control.

There will be minimal conflicts. Major power blocks will dictate if you're even *ABLE* to live in 0.0. It's unfair monopolization.

---

Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk

---

Originally by: Helen

---

you not going to answer me then?

when has there been a conflict of skill in eve? (don't include 1v1's)

---

Really stupid questions don't deserve answers.

PS; you suck at screenshots

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

Originally by: Flinx Evenstar

---

Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 04/05/2009 20:25:07

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

Most military theorists[who?] and strategics like Sun Tzu have viewed attrition warfare as something to be avoided.

---

Sun Tzu was well known for playing spaceship video games. You just need to throw in a reference to a well known european fascist dictator, and you can achieve Godwins law on the first page.

Edit: too slow, second page already, you could probably make up for it with some space Bushido quotes, and e-honour

---

While EVE-online is a spaceship video game. Many IRL naval tactics can still be used within it.

While this is digital make-believe warfare. So are the flight simulators that aviators utilize.

So are the video games four and five star generals use to understand tactics better.

So are games like America's Army that US Soldiers use to understand warfare better.

Digital simulation, while make believe, is an effective way to understand warfare.

Man created war. Man created games that employ war.

It's all the same.

---

Originally by: Himo Amasacia

---

This is a straw. Yes, grasp harder.

---

Originally by: triman247

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

Originally by: Flinx Evenstar

---

Edited by: Flinx Evenstar on 04/05/2009 20:25:07

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

Most military theorists[who?] and strategics like Sun Tzu have viewed attrition warfare as something to be avoided.

---

Sun Tzu was well known for playing spaceship video games. You just need to throw in a reference to a well known european fascist dictator, and you can achieve Godwins law on the first page.

Edit: too slow, second page already, you could probably make up for it with some space Bushido quotes, and e-honour

---

While EVE-online is a spaceship video game. Many IRL naval tactics can still be used within it.

While this is digital make-believe warfare. So are the flight simulators that aviators utilize.

So are the video games four and five star generals use to understand tactics better.

So are games like America's Army that US Soldiers use to understand warfare better.

Digital simulation, while make believe, is an effective way to understand warfare.

Man created war. Man created games that employ war.

It's all the same.

---

Yeah Flinx you gay.

In eve when the FC calls: "GIVE 'EM A BROADSIDE" you can do that just like in RL.
Also in RL the FC can call siege green and shoot RL POSes with RL Dreads except Battleships are the ones you siege in RL because they are bigger buy whatev.
Double clicking in space is like exactly like flying in RL.
Americas army, you get to do like pretend medical work which is the exact same as RL medical work.

Its all EXACTLY THE SAME YOU TARD. EVE IS REAL!@!1111

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

You're very simple.

First of all, modern day Navies don't utilize battleships anymore, they don't "broadside" anyone.

However, for some odd reason, they still utilize the same principles as they did when wooden ships existed with cannons.

Maneuvering all falls back to its basic roots. Logistics all fall back to their basic roots.

Tactical awareness, stressed decision making, espionage, all of these factors come from the real world.

After all, it is real people behind the computer screens.

IRL we don't have scouts, I guess.

IRL we don't have naval logistics, I suppose.

Hell, we don't even refit our war planes, ships, or land craft for specific purposes, do we?

What I was getting at is the basic tactics still apply to war in any degree.

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

0.0 is about to become a very boring and lonely place.

With these massive power blocks NAPing each other and smashing KenZoku into nothingness, who will be left to hate?

In roughly a year, I wouldn't be surprised to see one alliance controlling all of 0.0. Doesn't this alarm anyone?

---

Originally by: The Mittani

---

oh that is why i am being mean to the e-honor pubbie, i haven't had a snack in a while so i'm kinda low blood sugar, i get all cranky

time for a chocolate croissant from pret, they're always warm and fresh god damn i love chocolate

---

Originally by: CCP Mitnal

---

I don't have holidays.
I don't leave the forums unattended.
I don't sleep.
I am always here.
Watching.
Waiting.

---

Originally by: Korrakas

---

Originally by: The Mittani

---

oh that is why i am being mean to the e-honor pubbie, i haven't had a snack in a while so i'm kinda low blood sugar, i get all cranky

time for a chocolate croissant from pret, they're always warm and fresh god damn i love chocolate

---

why o why do you splurge endless BS mittenz, was dismantling BoB not enough for your to slake your inferiority complex ?

p.s no one gives a flying **** about your croissant, unless..ya know, you got a spy alt in pret too ?

---

Originally by: Elohe

---

uncultured swaines can not fully apreciate the beauty behind a perfeclty crafted croissant

---

Originally by: omeega

---

PICTURE TOO BIG, KGB INCOMING HAVE FUN.

---

Originally by: Ceratin

---

This thread is just, terrible..

Can we get this kid some milk and cookies and send him to bed now please

<3

---

Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk

---

Edited by: Tyrrax Thorrk on 04/05/2009 19:36:37

Originally by: Hey You

---

It might have been possible in the past and we all know who came closest to actually do it.

---

goons?

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

Sure it does. Through diplomacy. Sure they may not all carry the same name but it will be one giant coalition.

No one will have the balls to leave this coalition and attempt to initiate another conflict. They will be too afraid of the massive NAPfest annihilating them.

So, I fear that New Eden is about to go through its "Pax Romanus" era.

---

Bull ;P if the uniting factor for gooncoalition goes away (kenzoku dying off) they'll break apart into several coalitions again (NC, SPLOT, RSF), they may stay friends but they're unlikely to stay blue, especially SPLOT / NC and SPLOT/goons

there'll still be groups like stainwagon hostile to the rest, -A-'s group, CVA's bunch, triumvirate and the north russians..

if you ask me things'll get more interesting if kenny stop being a factor, not less

---

Originally by: Orree

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

0.0 is about to become a very boring and lonely place.

With these massive power blocks NAPing each other and smashing KenZoku into nothingness, who will be left to hate?

In roughly a year, I wouldn't be surprised to see one alliance controlling all of 0.0. Doesn't this alarm anyone?

---

These laughable assertions never seem to go away, do they?

While I agree (and lament) that the 0.0 game is largely the domain of two power blocs, that doesn't mean that these coalitions are united by anything other than their dislike of the other bloc.

To wit, many of the alliances arrayed against AAA-wagon/TAFKAB are red to each other when not engaged against the other big power bloc. Taking that fact into account, the "big" coalition then becomes a group of smaller, more regional coalitions, many of which have never sought to expand their territories beyond their immediate homes. To an extent, the same is true of the AAA-wagon/TAFKAB side--- at least as far as the likes of AAA and their vassals/allies are concerned.

I'm not sure what's going to break the cycle of the two sides being engaged as they currently are...but it hardly means that we will see one alliance or even one bloc "controlling all of 0.0."

Perhaps most reasonable people recognize this fact and that is why it doesn't "alarm anyone."

---

Originally by: CARY

---

Sad to say but News will come from KenZoku within the next 6 to 8 week that the alliance will disband or moving into another regions. Fact remain, KenZoku can't remain at this level and stage that they are fighting, it is beginning to show its wear and tears. For KenZoku to survive they will have to down grade a bit and admit or deny defeat either way and move into another region. They can not prolong this battle with Goons.

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

0.0 is about to become a very boring and lonely place.

With these massive power blocks NAPing each other and smashing KenZoku into nothingness, who will be left to hate?

In roughly a year, I wouldn't be surprised to see one alliance controlling all of 0.0. Doesn't this alarm anyone?

---

Originally by: Hyveres

---

Might just be a highsec carebear reading to much caod ,but I seem to remember statements from goons , pl and nc a few months back that if kenny claimed another region you would follow them there and eradicate them nomatter what. The goal of the conflict being the breakup of your opponents , not territory. Did that change?

---

Originally by: Klyith

---

Originally by: Hyveres

---

Might just be a highsec carebear reading to much caod ,but I seem to remember statements from goons , pl and nc a few months back that if kenny claimed another region you would follow them there and eradicate them nomatter what. The goal of the conflict being the breakup of your opponents , not territory. Did that change?

---

nah, we will let them take some low-end ****ty region. We'll just laugh at them in their new crap home. Constant *******ging from gs, pl, ra, and nc would be another matter. If they don't just dissolve, that is.




The new plan is to kill all the highsec carebears.

---

Originally by: Helen

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

This isn't a conflict of skill.

---

where has there been a conflict of skill in eve?

---

Originally by: fugazii

---

Originally by: Helen

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

This isn't a conflict of skill.

---

where has there been a conflict of skill in eve?

---

In recent times not so much, everything has become cookie cutter, and it's merely down to luck with dd's, bubble placements, timers, and lag now. However looking back to the days when a major fleet fight involved less than 250 people. Large alliances were not massive pvp organizations(for the most part) and "carebear" operations were small organizations leeching off, where it was reversed then. When an average pvp group comprised of few pilots fighting large isk making organizations rarely fighting in an even fight. Where holding a station meant you could defend it 23/7 because of no sov rather than defending it when pos's exited reinforced. When invading someone required commitment -you lived in space, you didn't have pos's, you didn't have carriers for refuel, you didn't have warp to 0, you didn't have smugglers gates, you had nothing but what you brought. There's reasons why m0o, Space Invaders, Biomass, F-E, M3G4, Zombie, Burn Eden, oldschool BoB/Celest ect will always be remembered, -it's not because they could raise 100 players at the drop of a dime to combat your 100, it's because they could raise 20 players and beat your 100. There was a time when EVE required skill, however for the most part it's long gone.

=wall of text=

---

Originally by: Elo Behram

---

stupid pubbie doesn't realize that goonswarm is going to invade fountain after querious is secure, this was all planned by the mittani at the 2009 BOB BBQ

pandemic legion prepare to be owned

---

Originally by: Elohe

---

uncultured swaines can not fully apreciate the beauty behind a perfeclty crafted croissant

---

Originally by: Helen

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

This isn't a conflict of skill.

---

where has there been a conflict of skill in eve?

---

Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson

---

Originally by: Helen

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

This isn't a conflict of skill.

---

where has there been a conflict of skill in eve?

---

Alliance tournement?

---

Originally by: Shaemell Buttleson

---

Originally by: Helen

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

This isn't a conflict of skill.

---

where has there been a conflict of skill in eve?

---

Alliance tournement?

---

Originally by: fugazii

---

=wall of text=

---

Originally by: Cippalippus Primus

---

Originally by: fugazii

---

=wall of text=

---

So you are saying: back when they were winning, skills were needed. Now they're losing, and skills don't matter.

Nice rationalization. Mad props for citing lag as a deciding factor, we all know that EVE was completely lag free from the beta until when Goons showed up.

---

Originally by: Admiral Frools

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

You're very simple.

First of all, modern day Navies don't utilize battleships anymore, they don't "broadside" anyone.

However, for some odd reason, they still utilize the same principles as they did when wooden ships existed with cannons.

Maneuvering all falls back to its basic roots. Logistics all fall back to their basic roots.

Tactical awareness, stressed decision making, espionage, all of these factors come from the real world.

After all, it is real people behind the computer screens.

IRL we don't have scouts, I guess.

IRL we don't have naval logistics, I suppose.

Hell, we don't even refit our war planes, ships, or land craft for specific purposes, do we?

What I was getting at is the basic tactics still apply to war in any degree.

---

I got news for you buddy, this aint a war, it's just a game. You should probably chillax bro.

---

Originally by: Johnny Santos

---

ok i skimmed over ALOT of the posts but to answer the OP... b0b did try to take over all of 0.0, they didnt deny it and they have been at it for quite sometime. Right when the goonies first showed up in frigs they controlled quite a bit of the map.

Someone I am sure will be able to link in old maps or you can search. I found someone on the first search in google "bob control all of 0.0 space" and this is the result: Linkage

So ponder that, I had a character that was in the old FA and back then after watching it collapse and everyone who was targeting how upset they were with TS and BIG and Xanadu, they left and joined the corps that formed b0b.

b0b was born from many member pvpers of every alliance that was dissatisfied with serving and protecting their corp m8s alliance m8s that were becoming fat off of their protection and receiving nothing in return. b0b wasnt solely formed from this but their ranks became flooded of the discontent.

I came on shortly after that day that ev0l fired on the FA fleet and we took it and did nothing. I remember all the members going insane over the confusion and the betrayal from the leadership of FA. I promised my comrades that we would hunt down and kill the ev0l fleet.
Only to be told to do so would cause a war FA could not afford and would not fight.
I had to watch as my bestfriends went over to a side that I know I would fight.
I was on the line every day against every incursion into FA space fighting and leading endlessly and not receiving ships, supplies or any sort of thanks from those that I protected.

I felt that anger, instead of stepping to that side I joined another that would fight all.. and would eventually fail. I left eve and sold my char at that time.. my char. was Insane Angel.

b0b has been about taking over 0.0 and I guarantee if they did at one point succeed, they would turn on everyone just to watch it burn.

0.0 will only be boring to those without the will to fight or the ambition to succeed.

Ive ranted and I apologize but I felt this topic needed some input.

KenZoku will do as it pleases as it has the will and the ambition. The only way to beat that is to meet it or exceed it.
Enjoy EVE, have fun and fly safe ;)

---

Originally by: Orree

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

0.0 is about to become a very boring and lonely place.

With these massive power blocks NAPing each other and smashing KenZoku into nothingness, who will be left to hate?

In roughly a year, I wouldn't be surprised to see one alliance controlling all of 0.0. Doesn't this alarm anyone?

---

These laughable assertions never seem to go away, do they?

While I agree (and lament) that the 0.0 game is largely the domain of two power blocs, that doesn't mean that these coalitions are united by anything other than their dislike of the other bloc.

To wit, many of the alliances arrayed against AAA-wagon/TAFKAB are red to each other when not engaged against the other big power bloc. Taking that fact into account, the "big" coalition then becomes a group of smaller, more regional coalitions, many of which have never sought to expand their territories beyond their immediate homes. To an extent, the same is true of the AAA-wagon/TAFKAB side--- at least as far as the likes of AAA and their vassals/allies are concerned.

I'm not sure what's going to break the cycle of the two sides being engaged as they currently are...but it hardly means that we will see one alliance or even one bloc "controlling all of 0.0."

Perhaps most reasonable people recognize this fact and that is why it doesn't "alarm anyone."

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

0.0 is about to become a very boring and lonely place.

With these massive power blocks NAPing each other and smashing KenZoku into nothingness, who will be left to hate?

In roughly a year, I wouldn't be surprised to see one alliance controlling all of 0.0. Doesn't this alarm anyone?

---

Originally by: Cipher7

---

Historically in gaming, clans have always recruited A-players because the number of slots was limited. If say you have room for 32 players, you need to get the best 32 players you can. That was the BoB formula.

In Eve there's no slot limit, hence Zerg tactics work.

---

Originally by: Johnny Santos

---

txt

---

Originally by: Don ZOLA

---

Originally by: Cipher7

---

Historically in gaming, clans have always recruited A-players because the number of slots was limited. If say you have room for 32 players, you need to get the best 32 players you can. That was the BoB formula.

In Eve there's no slot limit, hence Zerg tactics work.

---

No that wasnt bob formula. It was m0o and evol formula for sure, partly atuk too but just for a smaller amount of players. But not bob. bob forumula is awesome leadership (very active and knowing their stuff) + very active soldiers who know to listen orders. Then they screwed formula by accepting too much wannabes and not making sure their leaderships has replacements in case of burn outs (or other reasons to quit the game).

bob mastered zerg tactics. unfortunately with their leaders power burn out and with their pets and "allies" knowing they are being just used and that they can be backstabbed anytime, zergling is not enough nor can be done properly all the time.

---

Originally by: Hey You

---

Originally by: Don ZOLA

---

Originally by: Cipher7

---

Historically in gaming, clans have always recruited A-players because the number of slots was limited. If say you have room for 32 players, you need to get the best 32 players you can. That was the BoB formula.

In Eve there's no slot limit, hence Zerg tactics work.

---

No that wasnt bob formula. It was m0o and evol formula for sure, partly atuk too but just for a smaller amount of players. But not bob. bob forumula is awesome leadership (very active and knowing their stuff) + very active soldiers who know to listen orders. Then they screwed formula by accepting too much wannabes and not making sure their leaderships has replacements in case of burn outs (or other reasons to quit the game).

bob mastered zerg tactics. unfortunately with their leaders power burn out and with their pets and "allies" knowing they are being just used and that they can be backstabbed anytime, zergling is not enough nor can be done properly all the time.

---

Zola also have point. Its not often i agree with his posts but in this case i do.

Hi Zola :P

---

Originally by: Jack Gates

---

g00dfellas still exists?

---

Originally by: Endeva

---

ps. point is that you might reset each other in future after bob or whatever die but in future lets say someone make allaince strong enough to kick out you from delve or pl from fountaine what will happen is this you will try to solo that allaince, after one month you will see that you cant do **** and you will just call old friends back to + to help you kickass that allaince and claim victory on forums and call them failures...that is the ze future of this game....unless ccp dont remove standings completly from game or make some limit of how much corps7alliances you can put on +

---

Originally by: Admiral Frools

---

Edited by: Admiral Frools on 05/05/2009 12:40:15

Originally by: Endeva

---

ps. point is that you might reset each other in future after bob or whatever die but in future lets say someone make allaince strong enough to kick out you from delve or pl from fountaine what will happen is this you will try to solo that allaince, after one month you will see that you cant do **** and you will just call old friends back to + to help you kickass that allaince and claim victory on forums and call them failures...that is the ze future of this game....unless ccp dont remove standings completly from game or make some limit of how much corps7alliances you can put on +

---

This is no different from RKZ relying on -A- to try and retake delve, what's your point?

Just to clarify what I mean: This is what 0.0 has been like for a LONG time. Naps and blue lists are a part of the game, whether favours get called in or not is all down to alliance leaders.

---

Originally by: fugazii

---

:words:

---

Originally by: Estios

---

Fugazi and don Zola have already covered it and whilst I don't expect goons to have any grasp I personally know many pl and mm guys were active back when , in my opinion, eve was a very different and vastly better game.
I'm not even going to touch on what will happen if goons won, no one wins eve and as has happened hundreds of times before someone will just start shooting someone else but whether you like it or not eve DID require more skill back in 04-05 before POS warfare. You had corps making names for themselves, not alliances or groups of alliances. Us in atuk had great fights with and against m0o , evol, the collective and a host of others. Other amazing corps like zombie, space invaders, m3g4, cult of cthulta and heaps of others fought often against the odds. It was smaller scale. Alliances as they are now where a mix of pvpers and those with little experience, pvp corps could prevail against less skilled players,
Now every system has a pos whcih u can stage at until the numbers suit, everyone has maxed combat skills whether they originally intended too or not and moon isk rules the day

I'm not moaning about numbers, I respect the diplomacy skills, or shared level of hatred it takes to amass such fleets ;) , just be realistic that acheiving 'fame' in eve now is done based on numbers way more than a few years ago. It's ccps design and it's an interesting new era in eve right now but it's funny how bias some can be based on a Corp ticker ,

Nostalgia rant over :)

---

Originally by: Admiral Frools

---

Edited by: Admiral Frools on 05/05/2009 12:40:15

Originally by: Endeva

---

ps. point is that you might reset each other in future after bob or whatever die but in future lets say someone make allaince strong enough to kick out you from delve or pl from fountaine what will happen is this you will try to solo that allaince, after one month you will see that you cant do **** and you will just call old friends back to + to help you kickass that allaince and claim victory on forums and call them failures...that is the ze future of this game....unless ccp dont remove standings completly from game or make some limit of how much corps7alliances you can put on +

---

This is no different from RKZ relying on -A- to try and retake delve, what's your point?

Just to clarify what I mean: This is what 0.0 has been like for a LONG time. Naps and blue lists are a part of the game, whether favours get called in or not is all down to alliance leaders.

---

Originally by: Hey You

---

We all know how you took Delve in first place. That alone makes this very different. Not to mention you actually started with coalition **** in first place. Well not you. Goons.

Also Fred0 wht they are referring is large fleet fights that matter for taking space. They are completly skill less now as what they used to be. Not small scale pvp where skill still prevails.

But nice spin.

---

Originally by: Hey You

---

Also Fred0 wht they are referring is large fleet fights that matter for taking space. They are completly skill less now as what they used to be. Not small scale pvp where skill still prevails.

---

Originally by: Fred0

---

Edited by: Fred0 on 05/05/2009 13:48:35

Originally by: Hey You

---

Also Fred0 wht they are referring is large fleet fights that matter for taking space. They are completly skill less now as what they used to be. Not small scale pvp where skill still prevails.

---

If your complaint is that "as numbers grow each individual becomes less important" then you are right ofcourse though but good luck changing that :D

---

Originally by: Hey You

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Originally by: Fred0

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Edited by: Fred0 on 05/05/2009 13:48:35

Originally by: Hey You

---

Also Fred0 wht they are referring is large fleet fights that matter for taking space. They are completly skill less now as what they used to be. Not small scale pvp where skill still prevails.

---

If your complaint is that "as numbers grow each individual becomes less important" then you are right ofcourse though but good luck changing that :D

---

Exactly what i was trying to point out.

---

Originally by: Orree

---

These laughable assertions never seem to go away, do they?

While I agree (and lament) that the 0.0 game is largely the domain of two power blocs, that doesn't mean that these coalitions are united by anything other than their dislike of the other bloc.

To wit, many of the alliances arrayed against AAA-wagon/TAFKAB are red to each other when not engaged against the other big power bloc. Taking that fact into account, the "big" coalition then becomes a group of smaller, more regional coalitions, many of which have never sought to expand their territories beyond their immediate homes. To an extent, the same is true of the AAA-wagon/TAFKAB side--- at least as far as the likes of AAA and their vassals/allies are concerned.

I'm not sure what's going to break the cycle of the two sides being engaged as they currently are...but it hardly means that we will see one alliance or even one bloc "controlling all of 0.0."

Perhaps most reasonable people recognize this fact and that is why it doesn't "alarm anyone."

---

Originally by: Hey You

---

We all know how you took Delve in first place. That alone makes this very different. Not to mention you actually started with coalition **** in first place. Well not you. Goons.

---

Originally by: Hey You

---

We all know how you took Delve in first place. That alone makes this very different.

---

Originally by: Tyrrax Thorrk

---

Originally by: Hey You

---

We all know how you took Delve in first place. That alone makes this very different. Not to mention you actually started with coalition **** in first place. Well not you. Goons.

---

Goons didn't start coalition ****, if anyone did it was BoB (blobbing up with ASCN and others to hit TRUST capital shipyards) or LV with their coalition which goons 'n co eventually destroyed.

---

Originally by: Will Hunter

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true but then you must have superior resourses or technology.

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Originally by: Brolo

---

Originally by: Will Hunter

---

true but then you must have superior resourses or technology.

---

Incorrect. Motivation and opportunity is more important.

Superior resources are no help if they're in the wrong place. The Gulf Wars provided a few examples from ancient history. Deployment in the first was hampered because lubricating oils came from a place that had just been invaded. Multimillion ISK battlewagons are pillboxes if they break down in the sand, or can be destroyed with recycled munitions and some ingenuity.

Numbers can help. Cheap frigates can destroy a Titan, or swarm a POS. If you don't have the numbers, ambush the ice miners or fuelers instead. Superior tech or resouces don't help with that if you can't mine the resources or afford the tech, or afford to protect it.

Two recent examples demonstrate why resources & tech don't help. Both BoB and IRC took big hits from individuals with motive and opportunity, and now are into the attrition stage.

GS knew this, but seems to have matured to a divide & conquer strategy, along with becoming a landlord. Problem with that is the battlespace changes. Instead of having the initiative about what targets to attack, where and when, you have to defend that space. The larger the space, the harder that is.

Taki & Tyrrax perhaps understand these concepts, and dangers more than some Goonies do. Changes to PoS warfare could well make life more interesting, especially if it changes the dynamics of siege warfare to make attrition a bigger factor than it already is.

---

Originally by: EdFromHumanResources

---

Real life wars and in game wars the same because....

---

Quote:

---

Imagine seeing an IRC member saying how lack of resources doesn't lose you a war

---

Quote:

---

So what is losing the war for you guys? RA just wants your space more?

---

Originally by: Brolo

---

Originally by: EdFromHumanResources

---

Real life wars and in game wars the same because....

---

Art imitates life sometimes, but also allows people to learn from their mistakes less painfully.

Quote:

---

Imagine seeing an IRC member saying how lack of resources doesn't lose you a war

---

Imagine a goonie going off topic to gloat. We may lose space & some pixels, but war is eternal.

Quote:

---

So what is losing the war for you guys? RA just wants your space more?

---

Or GS wants RA to have the space more. Mittens explains it quite well in his post. More space, more rental income, but more to defend, more attrition.

355.3/43/0973 UB276 .P65

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

Why did GoonSwarm need to force BoB to disband before taking Delve? I'm sure none of it had anything to do with skill?

---

Originally by: Alz Shado

---

Knowledge trumps skill trumps numbers trumps luck.

---

Originally by: BuIIseye

---

Pretty sure IRON, -G-, Ekliptika and the rest of the northern guys back in that time formed the first ever coalition.

---

Originally by: Alz Shado

---

Knowledge trumps skill trumps numbers trumps luck.

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

0.0 is about to become a very boring and lonely place.

With these massive power blocks NAPing each other and smashing KenZoku into nothingness, who will be left to hate?

In roughly a year, I wouldn't be surprised to see one alliance controlling all of 0.0. Doesn't this alarm anyone?

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

Edited by: Teki Caldrum on 04/05/2009 19:25:13

Originally by: Terror Rising

---

Didn't Ken / Bob try and do this once and fail anyway?

---

No, they made a campaign called "MAX" which wasn't about gaining SOV. It was simply about doing MAXimum Damage.

BoB humbly accepted Delve as their home. They had the means to take down more regions, I'm sure.

However, unlike GoonSwarm, they liked to keep enemies. Which, in my opinion, is in good sportsmanship. What is the point of NAPing everyone and gaining complete control.

There will be minimal conflicts. Major power blocks will dictate if you're even *ABLE* to live in 0.0. It's unfair monopolization.

IMHO, it's going to ruin this aspect of the game.

---

Originally by: Cippalippus Primus

---

Originally by: Hey You

---

We all know how you took Delve in first place. That alone makes this very different. Not to mention you actually started with coalition **** in first place. Well not you. Goons.

Also Fred0 wht they are referring is large fleet fights that matter for taking space. They are completly skill less now as what they used to be. Not small scale pvp where skill still prevails.

But nice spin.

---

Hardly. I know that remembering the "golden age" is the cool thing to do, but fleet fights were lagged messes with people never loading, black screening, crashing, 10 minutes module activation, relogging games... same went with capital spider tanks and titans, the lag was often so thick that people couldn't do anything about it.

Now with Stackless IO people can actually control their ships, manouver and fire. How is this worse than the laggy pieces of crap we had to fight, I have no idea.

One other thing about this "coalition" thing you seem to despise so much. Goonfleet (the corp mind you, not the alliance) was founded in late 2005, and at that time BoB already had pet alliances, not to mention the help of "neutral" entities like MC, making your assumption wrong.

Nostalgia and pink-tinted glasses make things look different from what they actually were.

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

Edited by: Teki Caldrum on 04/05/2009 19:59:31

Originally by: Helen

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

This isn't a conflict of skill.

---

where has there been a conflict of skill in eve?

---

That's actually quite funny. Considering you're a goonie.

There haven't been many conflicts your alliance has engaged in which were skill based.

Your alliance relies entirely on one tactic, well as of late, two.

1.) Attrition.
2.) Espionage/Manipulation.

Why did GoonSwarm need to force BoB to disband before taking Delve? I'm sure none of it had anything to do with skill?

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

0.0 is about to become a very boring and lonely place.

With these massive power blocks NAPing each other and smashing KenZoku into nothingness, who will be left to hate?

In roughly a year, I wouldn't be surprised to see one alliance controlling all of 0.0. Doesn't this alarm anyone?

---

Originally by: RavenL0RD

---

Originally by: Teki Caldrum

---

0.0 is about to become a very boring and lonely place.

With these massive power blocks NAPing each other and smashing KenZoku into nothingness, who will be left to hate?

In roughly a year, I wouldn't be surprised to see one alliance controlling all of 0.0. Doesn't this alarm anyone?

---

It will not come to that... there are already voices inside the goons/pl/kia/razor/etc alliance who are not willed to fight/loose their ships for a bunch of noobs to gain control over complete delve/querios/period basis regions - and with noobs i reffer hereby to the only noobs existing in eve - goonswarm... known also as noobswarm.
Soon things will happen - leaving the noobswarm with no support.

---

Originally by: Utaldail Krull

---

thats a pretty good read, however i have seen much skill from the GS alliance....such as last sunday when kenny outnumbered the GS fleet almost 2 to 1 and still lost due to bad fc'ing and panic.....was kinda funny though when they tried to run and jump only to meet a untimely death on the other side......yea i would say there is skill in the upper ranks.

---

Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn

---

Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 10/05/2009 23:26:17
Kenguko has passed through the normal lifecycle of an alliance. Thier problem is they fail to realise this.

There will come a day when goons die, when PL dies, when whatever power-structure that destroys them fades into dust. Kenny was fading long before Haargoth pushed the disband button. He may have expedited that demise, but it was already imminent in any case.

The hierarchy of power will shift and reform after Kenny's drawn out death. Resets will come, battles will follow. Alliances will expand and eventually collpase under thier own wieght, or be destroyed by other newer entities. It is the order of things. No one stays on top forever. Thats what makes Kenny's death so pathetic, they can't come to terms with what is destroying them.

Kenny galvanized the NC in the first place. When they are dead there is nothing to hold the entity together anymore. My prediction is when this is complete (I don't say over, because really it already is) Eve will actually become more wartorn.

---

Originally by: RavenL0RD

---

Unfortunatelly for you, my poor noobswarm friend, Kenny will not die... who WILL die is the noobswarm coalition. As i said in a prior post, something wonderfull will happen... it already started... but you are probably all too blinded by noobswarm promises to realize it... what i can promise you is... noobswarm will not survive kenny being gone. There are people who will take care of this... and neither will noobswarms allies.

---

Originally by: RavenL0RD

---

Originally by: Lysander Kaldenn

---

Edited by: Lysander Kaldenn on 10/05/2009 23:26:17
Kenguko has passed through the normal lifecycle of an alliance. Thier problem is they fail to realise this.

There will come a day when goons die, when PL dies, when whatever power-structure that destroys them fades into dust. Kenny was fading long before Haargoth pushed the disband button. He may have expedited that demise, but it was already imminent in any case.

The hierarchy of power will shift and reform after Kenny's drawn out death. Resets will come, battles will follow. Alliances will expand and eventually collpase under thier own wieght, or be destroyed by other newer entities. It is the order of things. No one stays on top forever. Thats what makes Kenny's death so pathetic, they can't come to terms with what is destroying them.

Kenny galvanized the NC in the first place. When they are dead there is nothing to hold the entity together anymore. My prediction is when this is complete (I don't say over, because really it already is) Eve will actually become more wartorn.

---

Unfortunatelly for you, my poor noobswarm friend, Kenny will not die... who WILL die is the noobswarm coalition. As i said in a prior post, something wonderfull will happen... it already started... but you are probably all too blinded by noobswarm promises to realize it... what i can promise you is... noobswarm will not survive kenny being gone. There are people who will take care of this... and neither will noobswarms allies.

---

Originally by: fugazii

---

Originally by: Cippalippus Primus

---

Originally by: Hey You

---

We all know how you took Delve in first place. That alone makes this very different. Not to mention you actually started with coalition **** in first place. Well not you. Goons.

Also Fred0 wht they are referring is large fleet fights that matter for taking space. They are completly skill less now as what they used to be. Not small scale pvp where skill still prevails.

But nice spin.

---

Hardly. I know that remembering the "golden age" is the cool thing to do, but fleet fights were lagged messes with people never loading, black screening, crashing, 10 minutes module activation, relogging games... same went with capital spider tanks and titans, the lag was often so thick that people couldn't do anything about it.

Now with Stackless IO people can actually control their ships, manouver and fire. How is this worse than the laggy pieces of crap we had to fight, I have no idea.

One other thing about this "coalition" thing you seem to despise so much. Goonfleet (the corp mind you, not the alliance) was founded in late 2005, and at that time BoB already had pet alliances, not to mention the help of "neutral" entities like MC, making your assumption wrong.

Nostalgia and pink-tinted glasses make things look different from what they actually were.

---

I'm not going to bother logging in to verify, but I can't help but assume you didn't play in 03/04.

Now, what others and I are referring to is fleet fights pre-caps. Fleet fights weren't complete lagfests due to the fact that the amount of players present didn't create it. That, combined with the fact that numbers were far less meant that the quality of pilots meant far more due to the quantity present. If 20 bs aren't shooting the primary in a fleet comprised of 300 bs the outcome of the primary isn't going to make much difference, however when 5 bs aren't shooting the primary in a fleet comprised of 30 bs it makes a huge difference. Loss's were also amplified because of the small amounts of numbers.

---

Originally by: Zumbala

---

Seriously, someone here really beleive that piloting a BS in a fleetfight requires skills? MWD out of the bubbles, and listen to your ****ing fleet co to shoot at the primary? Does that require such an insane amount of skills to be well exectuted?

---

Originally by: Eskalin

---

I'm playing dwarf fortress, true story
As for skills in ba fleets it's not complete crap, it is important to know what to do when sometimes without being told.

---

Originally by: lord khnrageX

---

I dont think KenZoku will lose to goons. For one the only reason goonswarm is stil alive is becuase of its allies. I also think if KenZoku were to move elswhere they would be able to take alot of space and finally be able to take back delve.

---

Originally by: lord khnrageX

---

I dont think KenZoku will lose to goons.

---

Originally by: lord khnrageX

---

For one the only reason goonswarm is stil alive is becuase of its allies.

---

Originally by: lord khnrageX

---

I also think if KenZoku were to move elswhere they would be able to take alot of space and finally be able to take back delve.

---

Originally by: Apurimac

---

Who to hate?

Atlas, obviously.

---

Originally by: Fat Ducker

---

Originally by: lord khnrageX

---

I dont think KenZoku will lose to goons.

---

They already did, several weeks ago. Other things that happened during you coma: Micheal Jackson and Farah Fawcett both kicked the bucket on the same day.

---

Originally by: Graalum

---

Originally by: Fat Ducker

---

Originally by: lord khnrageX

---

I dont think KenZoku will lose to goons.

---

They already did, several weeks ago. Other things that happened during you coma: Micheal Jackson and Farah Fawcett both kicked the bucket on the same day.

---

billy jean was not his lover











































because she wasn't a little boy

---

Originally by: lord khnrageX

---

I dont think KenZoku will lose to goons. For one the only reason goonswarm is stil alive is becuase of its allies. I also think if KenZoku were to move elswhere they would be able to take alot of space and finally be able to take back delve.

---

Originally by: Graalum

---

Originally by: Fat Ducker

---

Originally by: lord khnrageX

---

I dont think KenZoku will lose to goons.

---

They already did, several weeks ago. Other things that happened during you coma: Micheal Jackson and Farah Fawcett both kicked the bucket on the same day.

---

billy jean was not his lover
because she wasn't a little boy

---

Originally by: webkert

---

Originally by: Graalum

---

Originally by: Fat Ducker

---

Originally by: lord khnrageX

---

I dont think KenZoku will lose to goons.

---

They already did, several weeks ago. Other things that happened during you coma: Micheal Jackson and Farah Fawcett both kicked the bucket on the same day.

---

billy jean was not his lover
because she wasn't a little boy

---

MJ didn't die of a heart attack, the autopsy reveals he choked on a small bone.

---

Originally by: Dante Algermain

---

Obviously you should hate Goonfleet and Goonswarm; even Goonfleet and goonswarm hate themselves.

---

Originally by: Graalum

---

billy jean was not his lover




because she wasn't a little boy

---

Originally by: The Mittani

---

(thanks to gw's inability to conceive of game balance in a new codex)

vOv

---